Mark Bell's Power Project - EP. 389 - A Vaccine Won't Be Effective ft. Dr. Gotzsche

Episode Date: May 20, 2020

Dr. Peter C. Gøtzsche is a Danish physician, medical researcher, and former leader of the Nordic Cochrane Center at the Rigshospitalet in Copenhagen, Denmark. He is the co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration, and was a former pharmaceutical representative for the company Astra-Syntex. Dr. Gøtzsche has been one of the leading figures speaking out about malpractice in the pharmaceutical industry, as well as many other health related industries. Subscribe to the Podcast on on Platforms! ➢ https://lnk.to/PowerProjectPodcast Support the show by visiting our sponsors! ➢Perfect Keto: http://perfectketo.com/power25 Use Code "POWERPROJECT" for 25% off and free shipping on orders of $29! ➢Piedmontese Beef: https://www.piedmontese.com/ Use Code "POWERPROJECT" at checkout for 25% off your order plus FREE 2-Day Shipping on orders of $99 ➢Icon Meals: http://iconmeals.com/ Use Code "POWERPROJECT" for 10% off ➢Sling Shot: https://markbellslingshot.com/ Enter Discount code, "POWERPROJECT" at checkout and receive 15% off all Sling Shots Follow Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast ➢ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ https://www.facebook.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/mbpowerproject ➢ LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/powerproject/ ➢ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/markbellspowerproject ➢TikTok: http://bit.ly/pptiktok FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell ➢ Snapchat: marksmellybell ➢Mark Bell's Daily Workouts, Nutrition and More: https://www.markbell.com/ Follow Nsima Inyang ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/ Podcast Produced by Andrew Zaragoza ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamandrewz #PowerProject #Podcast #MarkBell

Power Project crew, thank you for checking out today's episode. This episode is recorded on May 19th and it is with Dr. Peter Gotch. Dr. Gotch is a Danish physician and in today's conversation, we really got into some of the corruption behind some of the maybe prescriptions doctors give out, whether or not doctors are getting paid a little extra to prescribe certain drugs and even diagnose people with coronavirus. We also asked the doctor whether or not a vaccine is actually coming. And once that vaccine comes, will it be effective? If you guys like what we're talking about today, please hit us up on Instagram at Mark Bell's Power Project on Twitter at MB Power Project.

And then go ahead and give us a follow on TikTok as well. We like to have a lot of fun over there, even though we still don't really know what the heck we're doing. But anyways, yes, if you guys appreciate this episode, please let us know and please share it with somebody. And ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy this episode with Dr. Peter Gotch. Yeah, a lot of it's, you know, I don't think anyone really wants people to be sick or stay sick, even though there is a lot of money in it. I think that they're hoping that the drugs are, you know, going to be effective.

But I think they also know that the drugs aren't that effective. They know that some of these vaccines aren't that effective. And they, they, I don't know. I think people get scared. People get nervous about, you know, like imagine going to the doctor and they tell you that you have diabetes. I mean, that would be very, what do you know about diabetes? Like, you know, people lose their feet and stuff.

And like, I mean mean you can ultimately you can die from it shut down your organs that would be very scary and then when they lay out you know a couple prescription medications to you you'd be like all right cool so all i gotta do is take this to help manage my blood sugar but the doctor maybe just doesn't have enough time or our health care system doesn't really work in a way where the doctor can say you know what i'm gonna write you a prescription to send you to this um a nutritionist you know and this personal trainer that i know at gold's gym you know down the street so yeah it'd be interesting to get his take on on you know just maybe even why he thinks things are set up the way they're set up yeah on a much lighter note

i see that you're not a professor there he is hey uh you re-shared it on your instagram but the post from gabrielle lion about the uh the six feet for social distancing for covet 19 and then 12 feet for people who think red meat is the root of all evil. That one had me cracking up. I'm glad you guys re-shared that one. I'm still curious when the tide will turn, when people stop hating. Well, not hating, but thinking that red meat is the worst thing you can eat when you eat it and it's the best thing ever.

I think we're in a really good time because people call bullshit on each other all the time. And there's a guy that talks a lot about fasting. His name is Walter Longo. And Walter Longo, he talks about how red meat can be dangerous and how it can cause cancer. And he talks about these different studies and things like that. But it's like, well, it's easy to kind of point out a study is favoring, you know, that statistic. But you need to know like so much more about like what the study is, like what kind of meat and what kind of people did we test this on? Is this people like in a nursing home? Are these college students?

Are these people that care about their health and nutrition? Are these people that are exercising? Are these, you know, so there's so much more that goes into it. And I would say that as long as you don't overeat and you take care of yourself and you exercise, I think your body is going to be pretty metabolically sound and you're going to be able to handle most things. I'm sure there's circumstances where somebody is born with a preexisting condition that gets ignited from potentially eating too much sugar or something like that. But that's what all the evidence points to is like, just don't overeat and try to move around.

If you were to look for the highest quality beef, where would one go? You know, I've searched high and low and it's been a long journey, but we landed on a good one. That Piedmontese beef is some of the best damn beef in the world. I'm super grateful and thankful for them because I know, like, people have been scared about, like, a meat shortage and stuff like that. There's no meat shortage in this house. We got meat coming out of our ears over here. We even got meat in the bedroom.

Oh, wait. Hold on. Never mind. I guess as long as it's not going in the ears, I think you're okay. And Seema, have you tried that flank? I always want to call it a flank stink, but the flank steak from Piedmont. I've probably had it at this point. I don't think I've had it recently, but I've probably had it at this point.

I just like that. There's a range. Even though it's a lower fat, like steak, there's still quite a few of them that have a decent amount of fat. Cause a lot of people, Oh yeah. Yeah. Look at amazing. I look like a baby, but yeah.

So when it comes to those, it's like there's some that have a lot of fat or a decent amount of fat. And then some that are just really, really lean, which is dope. It gives you a lot of options. Yeah. I just want to rub your cheek. Like I want to rub my cheek on your cheek. Is that weird?

Which cheek? It's not that weird. It's not that weird at all. No, you're fine. Yeah. I'm going to take a stab at the flank steak tonight. We are defrosting that right now. I will report back on how good it is.

But if you guys want to learn more about piedmontese the best beef in the universe you gotta head over to piedmontese.com that's p-i-e-d-m-o-n-t-e-s-e dot com at checkout enter promo code power project for 25 off your order and if your order is 99 dollars or more you get free two-day shipping gentlemen how is your days going so far? It's going great, man. Yeah, things are good. I just got done with a 10-minute walk and ready to kick the day off. Mm-hmm. I got my standard wedding gift, a hubby mug. Nice. World's best husband t-shirt. yeah there we go we have our guest on there we go yeah we can we can you hear us now yeah it's fine there we go. Yeah, can you hear us now? Yeah, it's fine.

There we go. Hey, doctor, if you could kind of start out by just giving us a little bit of history on yourself, and if you could say your name for us so we don't mispronounce it, that would be a good start. Okay, I'm Peter Gertscher, and I studied biology, and then I became a doctor. I'm Peter Gertscher, and I studied biology, and then I became a doctor. So I have two educations, and I have taken a particular interest in science, randomized trials and observational studies. So I'm kind of all over the place. I have done research in so many different areas, from mammography screening to asthma to HPV vaccine,

just about, yeah, so much. It's great to have you on the show today. And I wanted to get your thoughts on a wide variety of topics. But, you know, the coronavirus is kind of front of mind for everybody at the moment. So I wanted to get your thoughts on the quarantine and get some of your thoughts on how you think some of this is being handled and perhaps how you think it should be handled. Well, first of all, the Chinese tried to cover up for the whole thing, which was very bad. And the WHO has actually praised China's efforts and totally forgotten that they tried to blame the whistleblower

and cover up the whole thing. So we could have dealt with the epidemic several weeks earlier than we did. And the country I have seen that has been best, I believe, is South Korea, because in a record time, they produced 100,000 tests. And they studied contacts very carefully, isolated people, and kept their societies open. You could still go to a restaurant and to a gym and exercise. You could still go to a restaurant and to a gym and exercise. Whereas in most countries, the politicians have panicked, which includes my own country, Denmark. And this has had enormous harmful consequences for our societies.

And South Korea has the lowest death rate I have seen in all countries, very, very few per million inhabitants. And they did that without locking down their societies. So I think that South Korea is a country we should try to learn from. try to learn from. Did they, so because of the tests, they got results back quicker, and then they could decide, you know, kind of who's going outside and those kinds of things, and who's going to continue just to go on with their life as they would normally. Is that kind of how they handled it? Well, contact tracing was incredibly important,

and they did that aggressively. Well, contact tracing was incredibly important, and they did that aggressively. And it seems to have worked. And I have argued, for example, what is the evidence for closing our schools? There is not much research, but the little research there is, for example, during the epidemic of SARS, tells us that it likely doesn't really work. And now there are new data from Norway that seems to confirm this. And by closing down nations, you destroy a lot of enterprises.

People have patiently built up over decades, perhaps, a successful restaurant, a little private enterprise or whatever. Many of these have gone bankrupt. And some people kill themselves when this happens. And when unemployment increases, there's also more domestic violence when people are forced to stay at home. So there are all sorts of negative consequences. And one of the worst actually comes from America that one of my colleagues, a cardiologist from Yale, wrote in New York Times that it's strange that so many patients with heart attacks and stroke haven't come to

his hospital. This must be because they were afraid of getting infected with corona and then they stayed at home. And it's absolutely essential that you dissolve the blood clot as quickly as possible. If you don't do that, your risk of dying increases. So I think it's a fact that a lot of people have died from blood clots in the heart and in the brain because they were afraid of Corona. So we have panicked to such a degree that it has actually caused a lot of deaths as well. And then you are in the States in a very bad shape right now, particularly in New York, and then you may wonder, how did it end up that badly in Spain and Italy and in the United States? And as far as I can see, the coronavirus is not more infectious than influenza. And it's

not even more deadly than influenza. And this is very surprising to people when I tell them that. But there are data from several studies that indicate this. Then why do so many people die? that indicate this. Then why do so many people die? This has to do with that we weren't well prepared for this and there was no immunity in the population. When measles came to the Faroe Islands in the Atlantic Ocean 150 years ago, they had not had measles for 70 years. So 80% of the population got infected with measles.

And around 2.5% died. Normally only around 0.2% die during measles epidemic. So it was 10 times as much. So I think there are some similarities to corona that in itself, it's probably not more deadly than seasonal influenza. But since the population is totally non-immune, it's like measles in the Faroe Islands so many years ago. It's like measles in the Faroe Islands so many years ago.

And then when many people get together, you can get too high an infectious dose so that you don't have time for your immune system to react and to save you. So it's also a question of the dose you get. And of course, you tend to get bigger doses if many people are close together, because there might be more than one who is infected, for example. So this is another factor. And a third factor is in Italy, for example, they sent everybody to hospital, even the mild cases. So this led to huge overcrowding at hospitals, and they didn't have protected gear, really. And we saw the same in China. So there are actually some good explanations for why this went so badly and for why we should not panic that much, that we destroy our societies.

And this is what I have seen in many countries, and it really worries me. You know, Doctor, I'm curious about this. When it does come to the measures that were being taken, because you mentioned how, obviously, South Korea, they did it much differently than we did here and in Italy we've self-quarantined I think in LA the quarantine is going on for another three weeks if somehow this does help sort of improve things and we don't know what's going to happen down the road when things do open up it seems that this is kind of a dangerous idea. If something like this happens again, the option is to put everybody once again into quarantine and go about the same situation like

we did now. Yes. And we can't do that because we have these viruses every year, it's usually influenza. And a lot of people die from influenza, but we haven't really cared much so far. This is just a fact of life. And these are mostly elderly people, mostly in nursing homes with other diseases that die from the flu. And these are the same people, mainly, who die from the flu, and these are the same people mainly who die from the coronavirus. So I have difficulty seeing a big difference to influenza. And we cannot lock down our societies every winter. In the southern hemisphere, it is winter when we have summer. And if more viruses come out of animal markets from China, I mean, we will face the situation again and again.

So we need to do better. And what I have missed a lot is why were the researchers so paralyzed like the rest of our societies, why didn't I see researchers saying, we don't know if it works to close schools, but it has a lot of harms. So why don't we randomize schools in a country so that half of the schools, they send the children home and the other half doesn't? Then we would find out if it matters to close schools, but there has been virtually no research in the first couple of months, just panic all over the place. This is not how we usually deal with healthcare problems. In the states and even like from state to state and within the states from county to county, there are different measures being taken. The most obvious one is some counties require masks to be worn everywhere. I have heard that wearing a mask might actually be, you might be more susceptible to contracting the virus. But what's your take on how helpful masks actually are?

No one knows. It's probably good to wear a mask if you are infected with corona and you might infect somebody else. But most people I've talked to don't really think it's a good idea to wear a mask if you are healthy. Then you just need to stay at a distance to other people, and we don't know how much distance it is. We have set two meters in Denmark, and now it's down to only one meter, and I have not seen any good explanation why it came down to one meter, but that's very little, actually. So it also took very long before a trial was started with face masks, but it has started in Denmark.

So that half of ordinary people, they will wear masks and the other half will not. people, they will wear masks and the other half will not. And it might be difficult to do the study because our infection rate is so low now in Denmark. So I don't know what will happen. But it's not so easy to wear masks either, that you need to be careful and you need not to fiddle with the mask with your fingers and all sorts of things. And maybe you should exchange your mask after a while for another one. And there are so many things we don't know about it. I find it really interesting that the United States very rarely adopts other methods from other countries. So, you know, to watch us panic and to watch us kind of just kind of follow suit with almost every other country and to see across the world, everyone's

thinking similarly. It just it makes me it makes me wonder, like, are people really thinking about this? And there's only a couple of countries that decided to employ some different measures. And I think what people are waiting around for, the American public and maybe a lot of other people as well, is they're waiting around for a vaccine. But a vaccine doesn't put us in the clear. What are some of your thoughts on a vaccine for the coronavirus? Well, first of all, let me end the story about face masks because there is a huge cultural issue. If you go to Asia, you can see lots of people right now wearing face masks. I think I have only seen face masks twice in Denmark,

which was pretty funny because it was an elderly people that my wife and I met while we were running in the forest. And they looked panicked when we went past them. And they had these face masks on them. So these are the only two people in the whole country I have seen with face masks. So there are huge differences. Now, when you talk about vaccines, you should really not be optimistic because people have tried for decades to develop vaccines against coronaviruses, and they haven't succeeded. And if you compare with the flu, we have several vaccines, but they are not really very good. It has never been documented that influenza vaccines reduce the risk of transmission to other people, reduce hospital admission, reduce pulmonary complications, reduce even death.

None of this has ever been documented. The only thing we know is that it seems to last a little shorter if you are vaccinated than if you are not. And then the immune system is so difficult that we don't really understand it. difficult that we don't really understand it. Canadian researchers have studied the influenza vaccine in a special way and have found out that if people get vaccinated, then they are more susceptible to other influenza strains than people who are not vaccinated. So by getting some protection through vaccination, you expose yourself to a larger risk of getting infected

with other influenza viruses. So it's really complicated, and I would not think much about a vaccine. That will not save us. a vaccine that will not save us. Hygienic measures, alcohol, you know, for your hands and hand washing and keeping a little distance to other people, being careful. I think these are the most successful measures we have. If a vaccine did come out, I mean, you yourself, you're a little, you would be one of the individuals that most would say would be more susceptible to this illness. Would you take the vaccine knowing what you know about vaccines?

A corona vaccine, you mean? Yeah, yeah, if it were to come out in the future. A corona vaccine, you mean? Yeah, if it were to come out in the future. Well, I never do such a thing without studying the evidence first. And I published a book about vaccines only three months ago. And I have now added a chapter on coronavirus because an American who reviewed my book, he said I should do that. So it's updated now with a coronavirus chapter. And when I went through the various vaccines, I already knew that the influenza vaccine was not very good. And I have a background in infectious diseases. And I have never taken the flu vaccine and and I never will, because it's not good enough.

My risk of getting infected is so low. And it also has harms. Any vaccine has harms. So I don't find it worthwhile. So if a coronavirus came by, I would, of course, look at the evidence before I make any decision. But my basic view of life is that if your risk of dying is very, very low, then why bother about it? We run a lot of risks by everything we do in life without bothering too much, even though we know what we do increases our risk of dying. For example, I go by racer bike even at my high age and sometimes pretty fast. And that's not without risks. I mean, if a dog suddenly comes out or anything else happened, a car strikes me, I could die. But I like it, so I run that risk. So why be so obsessed about a thing like influenza or corona that if we behave prudently, the death risk is actually very low?

Can you follow me? Yes, sir. I know the pharmaceutical companies are chomping at the bit to try to make some sort of cure or have some kind of combination of medication that can help or assist. But I know your thoughts on the pharmaceutical companies. How do you think they kind of play into all this? You know, that they have the world,

many people in the world are very scared of the coronavirus. And it kind of seems like they're going to push some medications out quickly with not enough research behind it. And that could, you know, that what are the implications of that? And I've heard you speak about this before. And I've never heard another doctor bring this up. But you said there's not one doctor in the entire world that knows when you start to really mix a lot of medications, you know, like I could be on a blood pressure medication, and then you give me cholesterol medication, and then I get the flu, and now I have penicillin or something like that. We don't know what all these different combinations of things do.

And imagine now we bring in a new drug or a new pharmaceutical company has come up with something new, and we just start to throw it into the mix. We might not know what the implications of that are for 10 years. Oh, no, you're absolutely right. I mean, if you out of panic take three different antibiotics, hoping that one of them will protect you against Corona or cure you if you have the disease, I mean, you might be unlucky and the drugs might kill you. I mean, chloroquine is not an innocent drug.

It's very good against malaria, but it can create cardiac arrhythmias and it can kill people. And people have already died, including in the United States, after your president, without any evidence, said that chloroquine might be a good thing to do. I mean, we have to study things carefully. And what is the chance that the drugs we have would work against coronavirus? They are not very big. If you look at influenza again, the swish pharmaceutical giant, Roche, cheated with their data. And they claimed that Tamiflu could prevent hospital admission and pulmonary complications

and that sort of thing. It was total bogus. It turned out that Tamiflu is not better than taking a paracetamol, which you call acetaminophen. So Roche has earned billions of any currency by cheating our governments. We shouldn't leave this to the pharmaceutical industry. If we want to test if drugs work against coronavirus, this must be a public enterprise with public funding. The drug industry should have nothing to do with this because they commit fraud routinely because it pays well to commit fraud

you know i also heard you mention i think is either yourself or mark mentioned how doctors are i guess um they are influenced by drug companies and i was curious about this too if we're thinking about doctors being influenced or the decisions that doctors have to make with medications being influenced by drug companies, does that have any type of, I guess, carryover into medical school as their students going through medical school to become doctors? Oh, yes.

The drug industry tries to influence medical students as well. And in some countries, they are even involved in textbooks. Some textbooks are sponsored by drug companies, some medical textbooks. It's absolutely horrendous. We have done a study on that some years ago. And I think it was the American Medical Students Association that actually reacted against this corruption and said, we don't want to have anything to do with big pharma when we are studying medicine. medicine. Yeah, you know, I also have heard you talk a little bit about, you know, doctors getting incentivized. I don't know much about this topic. Do doctors get money to prescribe these drugs from the pharmaceutical companies? Yes. Everything you can imagine happens in the real world if it makes the drug companies

richer. Any type of corruption you can think about has happened and still happens. Money can change hands in many, many subtle ways that no one will ever hear about before a whistleblower perhaps gets disappointed with his drug company and steps out and talks, which has happened several times. And then we have seen some highly prestigious doctors that people respected that they were deeply corrupted and they thought that this would never be revealed so of course it happens because it pays well and are doctors and hospitals actually getting some extra kickback or extra pay for diagnosing patients with coronavirus? Well, I don't know what, it's not interesting what happens with coronavirus because

it happens all the time for anything because it makes the companies rich. And it has benefits for private hospitals, for doctors, for everybody. So it thrives. And doctors have been paid by making foolish diagnosis and over-diagnosing people who are actually healthy. And they have been paid directly by using far too expensive drugs when there were much cheaper, equally good drugs. Then they have received kickbacks.

This is very common, and this has been documented again and again and again it it is health care is highly corrupt actually what does a person do you know like uh what should you know should we uh you know do our own research and uh try to come up with what we think is going to be best for us. I mean, sometimes maybe get in a compromising position and maybe don't have time to do that. Obviously, you're not saying that all drugs are bad. You're just saying the way that they're administered

and the pharmaceutical companies and stuff kind of have some criminal action behind the scenes that the general public doesn't know about. But what do we do to kind of protect ourselves and to stay healthy? Well, the best advice I can give people is don't take drugs unless you absolutely need them. And what does that mean? Well, in many cases, we are not in any doubt. If you get a dangerous infection that might kill you, you are aware that you need an antibiotic that works on that bacterium, of course. And if you have a very high blood pressure, it's a very good idea to lower it and so on.

And if you have diabetes, we know all these examples. lower it and so on. And if you have diabetes, we know all these examples. But most drugs people take are not only not needed, but they kill a huge amount of people. And this is why you need to look up the evidence yourself. And the first thing you can do if you get a prescription from a doctor is to find the package insert on the Internet, the FDA-approved package insert, and start reading about this drug. Then many times you will find out, my goodness, this is a dangerous drug. Do I really dare take this? And what are the benefits? That's much more difficult because can you trust the benefits

as written in package inserts when we know that the drug companies cheat with their data again and again like Roche did with tummy flu? But at least in this case, the FDA told Roche that they were not allowed to claim these things because there was no evidence for them. But in Europe, the European Medicines Agency, they swallowed Roche's lies. So in Europe, Roche was allowed to lie, but not in the States. You know, it makes me wonder if you have any

advice for people in terms of finding doctors who would, because again, there are probably doctors that are listening currently, and there are a lot of doctors who do practice responsibly, as far as advising medications to certain patients. But it does make you wonder, because I mean, I've gone to hospitals before

and there have been injuries that I've had where doctors have wanted to immediately go to surgery. I didn't. I took some time. I worked on myself and I was able to recover my injuries without having to go under the knife. And it makes me wonder, like, you know, you hear about holistic medicine and different types of medicine. Do you have advice for individuals in terms of how to figure out if your doctor, I guess, is responsibly administering medication? Yeah, I have written a whole book about it, which is called Survival in an Overmedicated World. Look up the evidence yourself. So I have tried to help people what they can do, even though they have no background in healthcare. And one of the tricks that often works is a simple Google search, for

example, that you can start there and then you can work on from there and read one document after another. It's a very, very good idea to try to find out yourself if what your doctor suggests is really what you also are prepared to do. also are prepared to do. And I can give you one example. Some years ago, some prestigious Danish doctors were asked what they would do if they got incurable cancer, if they would take these chemotherapies that they recommend their patients to take.

And guess what? They said no. So why do they plague their patients with these chemotherapies when they know that this is an incurable cancer? So why not enjoy the little life you have left instead of pestering it with nausea and vomiting and frequent hospital admissions and perhaps even dying because of the side effects, because you get an infection, for example. So we could do a lot better as doctors by being more conservative. could do a lot better as doctors by being more conservative.

And patients can do a lot better by being more conservative. And alternative medicine is not the solution. Since I'm so critical towards drugs, some alternative practitioners, they think that I'm one of them. But I have actually written a chapter in the textbooks for medical students in Denmark about alternative medicine. I was asked to do it. And I didn't have any particular interest, but I studied the various popular treatments like chiropractic and homeopathy and acupuncture and all sorts of things. And what I came up with was an empty hand. I couldn't see any of this worked.

So this is not the solution. The solution many times is to be patient and see if you don't get better by yourself. And you mentioned an operation. I had a similar experience. I got ankle distortions again and again when I played tennis. And so my ligaments in my ankle were very loose. And once I broke my arm because I fell and then I went to a surgeon and he said oh I can fix these ligaments for you I can make them shorter by surgery and when the date of surgery

arrived I asked the surgeon how often does this operation go wrong? And he became so arrogant and pissed off by this question that I felt that, oh, my God, I don't trust that man. And then I canceled the operation. And within six months, my ligaments had withdrawn themselves to the proper size and I didn't suffer from ankle distortions any longer. Several years later, I was asked to lecture for ankle specialists in Denmark, surgeons. And when I told them that story, they said, who was that guy? It almost always goes wrong. So, you know, it was terribly bad medicine. I might have been unable to play tennis for the rest of my life if I had taken that operation.

So you just have to be cautious and careful. And this is not to say that there are lots of very good doctors, but there are also very many poor doctors who know too little about the harms of their drugs and their surgery. So you really have to be alert yourself. Yeah. Common sense would just tell us we need to take care of ourselves, right? We need to exercise. We need to make smart decisions with our food, correct?

Yeah, but, you know, now I'm talking to people who are exercising. And I do a lot of sports, tennis and run in the forest and so on. And it's much more fun to run in the forest than to run on a belt in a hotel, which is horrible. But if you run in the forest, even though you have been there many times, it changes. You know, it's not the same as looking into a wall or a TV screen. And you can hear the birds and you meet other people. And it's just wonderful. But it's also much more dangerous. You stumble across stones and roots, and you can hurt your head badly, for example. So why do I run in the forest instead of running on a treadmill?

Because it's more fun. So if you're not prepared to take risks in life, you're not living. Going back to kind of educating ourselves on medicine and, like you said, reading the inserts on some of these prescriptions, can we trust what the FDA is writing on some of those inserts? No. Damn. The short answer is no. Is it just the best that we have right now yeah okay um people who work for the fda they are far too industry friendly and they approve far too many dangerous drugs which have all sorts of warnings that you can't take this drug with

this food item or with this other drug. And you must be careful if your patient has diabetes or bad kidneys or whatever. And no doctors can handle all this. Every drug may come with 10 or 20 warnings and precautions and black box warnings, and I don't know what. Doctors are not superhuman, and when they use several drugs at the same time, as one of you said earlier, they don't know how these interact with each other because this has never been studied. And people who work for the FDA, they regularly go into the industry

to a very high salary because they know what it is about. And conversely, people come from the industry and go to the FDA. This is what we call the revolving door phenomenon. So there have been many scandals over the years with FDA and FDA decisions, and that the FDA did not withdraw dangerous drugs. Even after they had killed quite a substantial amount of people, they were still kept on the market for far too long. still kept on the market for far too long. Yeah, doctor, thank you so much for your time.

I really appreciate it. And it looks like you have some immune strengthening products in the background there. It looks like you got some wine on the top shelf up there. It's my home office. And for some reason, the wine and champagne and whiskey ended up there. It goes, it goes well with your research. I'm sure. Thanks so much. I don't, I don't drink wine because I think it's healthy. I drink it because it's good.

Cause it's fun. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks again. Where can people find out more about you oh i have two websites one is named after my my book about organized crime in the drug industry it's called deadly medicines in plural in one word and the other website is called Scientific Freedom, which is an institute I started a year ago. But if you search my name on Google, you will easily find me. Great. Thanks again. I appreciate it. Have a great rest of your day. Yes, thank you. Thank you.

It's always so abrupt. I know. I wish it faded out the way faders work i was curious about a psychiatric medication because um psychiatric medication is a totally different type of thing i have a relative that has like schizophrenia and it's like they've been on so many different types of medications that have so many side effects and so many personality changes. But it's like it's normal for these people to make this many switches. When it comes from when it comes to mental disorders, there's so much more is unknown. You know, they really just they don't they they really they really struggle. And, and I would guess like, I mean, just think of how many different people that we know and how many different

types of personalities that they have. Sometimes, you know, people that have kind of similar traits or similar personalities, but imagine, you know, mixing all that in and then trying to factor it in with like what drug to take. I've even heard people say this with like nootropics and things, even things that just help with like wellbeing or help put you in a better mood. Sometimes things don't work very well on certain people because they don't need any more like serotonin or they

don't need any more. You know, we don't know what the combination is like. So it'd have to probably be like almost customized to your brain and to your particular situation, which I just don't know. I don't know if we'll ever get there. I don't know. The human body is complicated. Yeah, it's not there. That's the thing. Like, like you said, like it has to, you have to figure out which things to change up.

But a lot of times it literally just ends up absolutely changing that person's personality. Like you think of, you know, certain medications for kids with hyperactive disorder, right? And they just end up being, some of them end up being very muted as individuals. It's not the same person. You figure, okay, well, they're calmer, et cetera, but is this better? Or like, it just, there's really no answer there there and when it comes to things like schizophrenia people you know depending on what culture you're in and and when we're talking about but if we're talking about maybe like a few thousand years ago they thought that people that saw stuff

they thought that they were like connected to God. You know, they just, they looked at it differently. You know, it's a, it's, it's, it's really interesting. And then now whenever anybody's different, whenever anybody has different thought process or, um, you know, then, then we just label that as being weird. You know, that's weird. That's a condition. That's a disorder. You need to go get help for that.

And sometimes people do really need to go get help for it because they have a hard time kind of functioning in society, which is, which is, you know, hard to do when you have a mental disorder of any kind. But that whole thing, man, is really complicated. And that's really where the pharmaceutical companies and the doctors and stuff. I just feel like we're really behind. I feel like we're just trying to, just trying to guess, you know, just trying to put our, our best foot forward that we can. And, and just, you know, it's like just throwing stuff and seeing what sticks on the wall, I guess.

Yeah, it's exactly that because he's been quoted as saying like psychiatric, um, the, the diagnoses that happen within those fields aren't really even based on science and that in and of itself is a scary thought because of all the types of medications that they're being doled out yeah it would be great if they were a little bit more open-minded to um like psychedelics you know chris bell just did a um experiment uh the whole thing has been documented it's all on youtube for free uh taking ibogaine and he's experienced nothing but positive benefits from it um not only do we not know but it just seems like they're only throwing what they do know

like as far as like uh prescription drugs and stuff right like they're not willing to try you know some type of psychedelic mushroom or something like that to see if it actually can help instead they still want to throw the traditional medicine at it while still not knowing if that's even going to work um if you don't know it's if it's not going to work or you know if it's going to work or not how about you try something you know know, different and see what happens. And I mean, we've seen people like report amazing transformations and nothing but benefits from, you know, even just simple depression, you know, you, with the use of psychedelics

and I don't know about like schizophrenia or anything like that, but I mean, shit, I would be more open to that than, than doctors just throwing drugs at the, at the problem. Yeah. And I think about some of my friends and some of my family members that have suffered from, you know, mental disorders and just like the hell they went through, you know, just like what they went through. It sounds completely ludicrous, but imagine going to a doctor and they're like, here, smoke this with me. Let me see. Let me see how you feel. Like, I want to talk to you. You know, we'll smoke some weed together anything. But I know that that sounds weird or crazy. But what if you, you know, just kind of examined like, hey, how do you feel?

And they said, I feel really good. I said, okay, well, you know, why don't you take some of this home with you and see, you know, see what it – to help calm you down is, you know, normally you're probably not this calm or whatever it might be. And I know that that sounds different and sounds, you know, you know, a doctor, a doctor wouldn't even be able to, you know, try something like that. But also, you know, imagine, you know, seeing somebody take a medication that you, you know, somebody that you love, someone that you care about and literally see them going crazy before your eyes. Watch watching them hurt themselves, punch themselves, pull their own hair out. All kinds of crazy stuff can happen when you start to mix. You know, somebody already has a preexisting condition and now you're mixing in a drug that we really don't know as much about as we as we really need to.

You know, and so it's and I've seen some friends I've seen like the same friend. I've seen him tremble a crazy amount from being on a certain type of drug and then they switch his drug. from being on a certain type of drug and then they switch his drug. And I've seen him like just completely deflated, like somebody like sucked his spirit out of his body. You know, it's really, it's really, really wild. And I'd love to, I'd love to see some advancements made in this, in these areas, but it almost seems like if they were to even just be open to what you

mentioned there, Andrew, that that would be a step in the right direction. We should try to get, I should get to get Tim Ferriss on the podcast and chat with him about it. I know that he's put a few million dollars into the research of psychedelics and more recently to, um, Kevin O'Leary, who's on a shark tank. Uh, he also has put some,

uh, money into that as well. And I, and I find that really, really interesting. That would be an amazing topic to dive into with those people. Yeah. We can definitely dive deep into that with,

uh, tomorrow's guest. That'll be a lot of fun. Yeah. We got Aubrey marcus on tomorrow right yeah that's your man andrew uh yeah definitely my man crush monday tuesday wednesday thursday on saturday yeah yeah uh when i was doing my cut you know mark and i were talking about like you know what type of body is obtainable and he he's like, you look up to Aubrey Marcus.

I'm like, yeah. I'm like, that's one of the reasons why, you know, he's always in really great shape. And just, you know, he's always has a shirt off and partying with a bunch of girls and dudes too. Just always smiling, having a good time. So, I'm excited to have him on again. It's really cool that we've had him on multiple times now he's still out on it like he's still the ceo and that's a really big question i want to ask him he stepped down okay yeah i thought i heard about that recently yeah thanks for reminding me because

yeah that's a it's just weird i mean not weird like we see it kind of all, not all the time, but we've seen it where somebody's like, like, um, I know Elon Musk did something slightly different, but you're like, wait, why would you even come close to walking away from such an amazing company? But, you know, the guy has, he's enlightened, you know, he has his reasons. And I think it'll be really cool to hear, you know, kind of like how Gary Vee talks about happiness over everything. That's huge. I love that. And I've been trying to follow that, that kind of wavelength.

And I think he just moved on. I think, you know, I think he's just he was probably super excited to bring the world some of these uh creative supplements that that uh people needed you know and um i think uh he probably just you know got to a point where um he just that wasn't really his major interest anymore you know and uh also too you know when companies go from when a company goes from generating you know a few hundred thousand dollars and then even into a couple of million dollars, it's really not problematic. You hear people say, more money, more problems type thing. And having more money isn't a problem when it's not that much more money. Like when you have, when you have, when you're under like 50 million,

you can still have, or under 25 million even, you can kind of still have this kind of, this smallish network company and you can kind of run it whatever way you want. But once you start to get into those bigger numbers, I remember the people at BSN telling me, they're like, this company used to be so awesome. Like back when we were, when, when we weren't, when we weren't really making a lot of money, we were a lot better. And I was like, well, what's not a lot

of money to you guys. And it's like, you know, it's like 50 million or something is where they said was kind of the tipping point, but you kind of get the idea of like, it just becomes more corporate, you know? Um, then you have to have a lot more rules. You know, I'm sure that like Aubrey Marcus would probably love to just not have any rules. But then you get Susie. We always use that name. Susie's worrying about what time Andrew's clocking in. It's Karen, not Susie.

Well, Karen is the general one. Susan was the factual. Yeah, the actual one that he worked with. But then you have the employees kind of fighting, and then you need HR, and then you need, I don't know, you just need all this different stuff. And it just becomes something that you probably didn't want it to really turn into. And I would imagine probably something like that. And plus he just probably wants to move on to, you know, continue to explore himself and continue to just follow his interests.

And what I loved about the doctor that we just had on right now is he mentioned it more than once about like just doing stuff. That's fun. You know, he's like, I don't, you know, I don't drink alcohol, you know, for any sort of health reason. I just drink it cause it's fun. Yeah. You talked about running in the woods. You know, the people, I think people forget that that's medication. Like that's, that's a medicine. You know, you don't want to, you know, obviously use alcohol as like medication, but you want to use having a good time as medication.

And what do you like to do like to read like to run like to lift what is it you know try to do more of that we just bought some long boards to learn how to do that yeah yeah just so because like they're fast right they're fast enough but it's also a good way to be outside and it's not walking exactly but it does take some you know kicking and balance and whatever it's it's it, it's difficult, but it's fun. I'm going to go ride it after this. Build up the hammies, but it kind of only one hammy. Cause can you push on the other side as good or no, you can,

like there are different foot positions. So like if your left foot's forward, you can kick with your right foot forward. You can, you can kick with your left. So yeah, I'm messing around with both a little bit but it's man it's it's it's super fun riding around on that thing yeah i i would like to but i just know i'm gonna eat shit and i've been eating shit these past few days that's why it's part of the process that's why i like paddleboarding but i can't just go out and do that. So there's, you know, that, that part sucks. You guys hear about, um,

when Elon was on, on Rogan, he was like, I got rid of all my possessions. Like he's, he sold his hat, like sold houses and got rid of just stuff that he doesn't need. Yeah. He's talking about,

yeah. Selling about a lot of his stuff. Yeah. Pretty wild. I thought that was interesting. I've been hearing a lot of, uh, a lot of people talk about just doing that and living very minimally.

In his words, he didn't want to let anybody have, I don't know, something like a tactical advantage over him or something in that realm, right? It was this that he really wants to focus on getting to Mars. And he just doesn't want any distraction. And he doesn't want to like if he if he's just saying like if he's going to build a house like he'll just obsess over it too much he'll think too much about it and he just thinks about all his possessions so he was like i'm just going to get rid of them all kind of makes some sense probably uh help to uh de-stress himself a little bit and again you know going back to the thing about, you know, money, when you, when you start to have a lot of it, you know, if you had, um, you know, if you

guys had double the amount of money that you have now, um, that wouldn't be really problematic. It would just make your life a little bit more convenient. But what if you multiplied it? What if you multiplied it by 10? Well, now you got to start getting creative on what to do with your money. And now you have to start to get creative on how to not get taxed as much. And like, it just makes you put a lot more thought into your money, you know, having tons of it or, or having like none of it, uh, both spots leave you worrying about money too much. And somewhere in the middle is probably a really good place to live.

And then that way you don't have to sell all your shit the way you want to musk is doing. Yeah. Well, it's great that a slingshot is still where it is. I can still walk around the office pantsless. It's awesome. Yeah.

You guys getting in there lifting yet? Not to see that. I haven't got in. I'm going to probably go in tomorrow because I've, I've been doing jujitsu. Nice. So, uh,

still isn't open but i've been getting in those roles in the uh the underground kumite yeah but like there's a school over here that actually has opened up i don't want to put out the name because it'll get over here don't want to ruin a good thing not even that i hear that the government is like might be giving out fines so like like there were a lot of people there training but i don't want to say anything and someone's listening i'm gonna come after that school you know you were mentioning that you were in dixon uh training a little bit too right i wonder like is that one still shut down too that one's shut down right now a few of the guys from

that school are like training in a garage um but that's odd because Dixon is like Dixon is so spread out and, it's a different, um, County than Yolo County. So there's not much around it. No, there ain't shit out there. Yeah.

I would say maybe after everything opens up, you can give the, uh, the school a huge shout out because they were, they had the balls to open up when everyone else wouldn't. So that way, you know, give them a little, little shout out there, were they had the balls to open up when everyone else wouldn't so that way you know give them a little little shout out there but yeah that's cool i haven't heard a doctor or anybody uh on this podcast before talk about how much exposure you get to the coronavirus i haven't

really heard anyone say that so like his him talking about the situation in new york and i don't even know if this is true but this is based off of my interpretation of what he said was when you're around, you know, people that have more, people that have the coronavirus that you might get a larger dosage of it. And I haven't heard anybody really speak about that before. And so maybe that's part of the reason why we're kind of opening back up slowly, you know, I don't know. A lot of it's, a lot of it, a lot of it's just so interesting. Again,

I think about the United States never follows what other countries do, you know, never like it's, it's, it's really, really rare. I mean, I think obviously we have our own problems here, but the type of government that we have set up and a lot of the way America is set up, there's a reason why so many people try to get try to come here. There's a reason why people die trying to get into the United States. And, uh, that those policies, those things that we have in place are not because we think like other countries, not like it's not because we, really, we can't go, we can't come up with a better idea than this. You know, I, I, I don't know. I just think that we could, could have been more creative. And I liked what the doctor said there about, you know maybe there wasn't a reason to panic so much and pull everything, the pull the schools all at once and all those different things. Maybe there could have been

some different thought process to it. And now, I mean, really think about it. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. You shut down half the schools for a while and then flip-flop and let everybody finish out their education, let everybody finish out their year. It's easy to look back and to make choices and decisions after the fact. But it sounds pretty reasonable to me. Yeah, I think it'd be tough, though, to convince half of the parents to allow it. You know, like I would imagine a lot would not be open to it. And then others may be like, yeah, I got to go back to work.

So drop the kid off. People are fucking lazy. You know, people don't. I don't think people are fucking lazy you know people people don't i don't think people are hungry you know i don't think people are hungry for it i think that my parents and like a generation and maybe another generation um that the last two generations have put up so many points on the scoreboard that no one's fucking hungry like no one cares no people are just like oh i'm I'm going to go play golf or I'm going to go do this, I'm going to do that.

And they don't care that they don't have a job. And I don't get it. It doesn't make any sense. Or they don't care that shit's not open. They're just going to continue just to not give a fuck about it. And to me, that's just, I don't know, I just think that's, it's just odd behavior. You know, like we uh I think Dr.

Bo Hightower said it best when he was on the show he's like oh we finally got some finally have some equality going on we finally have some freedom going on and now we're just like ah we don't give a fuck about it yeah yeah I mean it's tough because there's incentive to not give a f right now you know like uh we'll bring up the old co-worker. I know for a fact that they're making quite a, I think, more than what they were getting paid to do nothing. There's a lot of people I know that are in the same position. Yeah, they get a little extra bonus for not working. So, there's no, no i mean some people probably would

hate it but i know others they're just like well shit i'm not gonna really i'm not gonna you know ruffle any feathers because this is actually pretty awesome i don't have to work and i'm making pretty much about the same amount of money if not more the way all this works is so screwed up like okay school has shut down, right? And then now we hear Governor Newsom coming on TV talking about how the schools are going to need a lot more funding the next couple years. And you're like, what? School stopped. So how do they all of a sudden not have any more money? Like, does school make money every day? Like,

do they get like a paycheck every day? Do they make money just to be open? I think they, I think they spend money every day to be open. It's like, it's, it's, it's insane. I mean, I understand, I understand why these things happen because they shift money around from one thing to another, but even the way they phrase stuff is so tricky. And you're just like, you sons of bitches. You're like everything they lay out there. You know, like I mentioned this many times. They keep talking about the coronavirus, the coronavirus, the coronavirus.

And it's like, please use the word quarantine just so people know that it's not the coronavirus. It's the quarantine that you chose for us that put us in this situation which is fine that's okay but don't lie to people it's not the coronavirus obviously the coronavirus caused this to happen but this was still a choice you know to do all these things that we're doing is still a choice and the narrative has to be that this was good for us though like the narrative we had there it's gonna come out we're gonna have numbers after this and it's gonna be oh wow you guys see what the quarantine did we didn't have this quarantine we'd be in such worse position so i know uh yeah and how about all the the news outlets

finally uh talking about the second wave. Again, another thing that we've been talking about on this podcast for a long time that people are finally catching up to. And Mark and I were talking like, dude, can they give us a shout out? Like, you know,

something a little, you know, maybe an IG handle, like just pop up on the, on the right corner somewhere, but nothing, no respect. Andrew Zaragoza has been talking about the second wave for five years.

Damn right. It's amazing. When we were, when we've talked about the second wave, how many people relate to it. And we're obviously talking about the second wave of poop that comes. And we, we've talked about it before on the show and in YouTube videos and stuff. It's a weird phenomenon because you're like, I went to the bathroom.

And you're like, everything in my body agreed that it was time to leave the bathroom. Like I did my business. I'm done. And you leave. And then like five, six, eight minutes later, something like that. All of a sudden, all of a sudden you get hit by that second wave. It's like you got struck by lightning or something. It's a wild thing. And we were talking about it at the gym one day.

Sully was like, I wish I only had two waves. We were like, what? He said he gets hit by a third wave. He said he has to like, he has to like strategically like stay at his house to get all three of the waves out. So that way he knows like he can drive to the gym and he can go, he can go and train. I'm like, I think you're just eating too much. He's like, nah, I can't be that. Yeah.

His strategy is pretty awesome. So he handles business and then he says he goes and he just like le i can't be that yeah his strategy is pretty awesome so handles business and then he says he goes and he just like leans on his dresser and waits he's like i don't even bother with trying to get somewhere before it it's like i just wait it hits he handles business again and then drives to the gym and when he gets to the by time he gets to the gym it's another emergency he just has to go straight to the bathroom and it's too funny dude but when he said that he's just like yeah i was like dude that's amazing i couldn't believe it but yeah the gym kind of takes it out of you too you know like there's something about the gym that

causes that response too or you're like oh i gotta shit there's something looking like when you're looking at a heavy like squat rack or a deadlift bar it's immediately right before that we're like okay it's like every time i gotta take a dump well and you're also just like this would be wise to get like this would be wise to get rid of this in this way do it in the bathroom and not have it happen you know while while you're in the middle of lift yeah better safe than sorry lane lane norton i think he crapped like 10 times during a workout that's that's a little bit next level must be all the fiber he's eating yeah yo but i was gonna say something it's all the bullshit coming out of it. I love you, Lane.

You're a great influence on my life. Seriously. But my mom, man, like it's funny for like, it's been decades. She's been doing this. Whenever she'd go to the hospital, she had something wrong. If the doctor would give her a medication that she was iffy about, she'd just chuck it in a corner and wait it out and see if she really needed it. So like she has these bags of like years old medication that are like,

like it ends just like, just like medication that she just been like, no, I want to just wait and see if I really needed it. And she usually doesn't end up needing it. So she chucks it cause she doesn't trust it. Smart. That's smart. That's really smart. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Just like the doctor said, he said, you know, only if you think you really, you really need it. You know, it's uncomfortable when you get hurt or when you're sick or something like that. And so you're just super hopeful that, you know, what they prescribed you is going to work right away.

But a lot of times, as he mentioned, as other people mentioned before us, a lot of times these things do work. A lot of times these things do, the medications work, but a lot of times just taking your time works as well. So I always get really, really concerned about friends that are like, you know, big into lifting and then they get an injury, you know, and then they get prescribed like a muscle relaxer or a painkiller. And it's like, man, I know that you're in a lot of pain. I get it. I know that you're in a lot of pain, but you know, do you have an addictive personality? Like you should go through a little bit of a checklist before you decide to, uh, to take that that if it's something that's just gonna help with the inflammation then uh i would say that that's probably less harmful but if it's uh something

that's gonna like numb the pain or be like a muscle relaxer like you got to really think about that one yeah yeah like i said i'm happy oh good no go for it no like yeah it ranges all the way from like college because i've talked about the ibuprofen thing before but i was doing that kind of in in late high school too because like a lot of a lot of kids on the teams that we would travel around like we take some ib's before games if we were super sore right so that's not just that's not just, that's not just when you, you know, get older, you're, you know, you're lifting that's athletes in general.

Like I think that's probably still a thing for a lot of like, you know, endurance athletes, soccer players, basketball players, just take a quick Motrin ibuprofen before game or something. You'll, you won't feel it. It's crazy. All right, man. What you got for the rest of the day? Get going to get in, uh, some working out some lifting. Yeah. I got to get in some, a good lift sesh. I haven't really done anything too crazy over the past week. A lot of preparations for the wedding and stuff. So, uh, but it was cool. Uh, both of us worked out the day of the wedding.

Stephanie, I don't think, missed any days at all. So she's a savage. But yeah, I want to get in some lifting today. We'll see exactly what I do. But yeah, something that's going to get me all sweaty and gross. I'll probably do some kettlebell work, more jiu-jitsu tonight. I need to message Cassio and see when he wants to open up. That's what I was thinking about.

I want to text him. He can open up. I feel like he can do it. Yeah, I think so. I think for some of these smaller companies and stuff, I don't think it's that big of a deal. But, you know, I'd hate to just say, hey, go do it, you know, and then someone get fined or something like that.

But I really think, uh, I would imagine you probably just get like a warning at first. Cause I don't think anyone's like, I don't think anybody's looking like really like bust anybody or make a big scene about it. Unless you're a bigger company, then they might want to make an example of you, you know? Um, and the bigger companies have a harder time too, because again, the employees might get upset.

But yeah, I would love to see everything open back up. I know that he was talking about governor Newsom was talking about the possibility of some pro sports and stuff like that opening up, you know, in a, in a, in a few months and churches and things like that. And, you know, so hopefully hopefully we get something opened up soon because we're moving at a real snail's pace out here in California. It seems like we're, we're like, I know he was mentioning like, Oh, we're in stage two. I'm like, I don't even know. Like what was stage one? Like, I don't even remember,

you know, like what's, what's the difference. And now we're in like stage two a, and then there's going to be stage two B. It seems like, anyway, it's a really slow crawl. A lot of gym goers are getting like a lot of, a lot of clients are messaging me saying, I got my jam. I can go train now. So that's good. People are able to start lifting some weights again. Yeah. So, uh, Texas has kind of opened up and a bunch of other areas. So it's going to give the rest of us FOMO, I guess, right? A little bit. But we still got super training gym.

Andrew, take us out of here, buddy. Thank you, everybody, for checking out today's episode. Don't be stingy with this podcast. Share it with a friend. Chances are you know somebody that said, I'm bored because of the lockdown. Give them endless entertainment with this podcast and information. So please do share that. Please make sure you're following the podcast at Mark Bell's Power Project on Instagram,

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I'm at Mark Smiley Bell. Strength is never weakness. Weakness is never strength. Catch you all later.