Mark Bell's Power Project - Healing Injuries WITHOUT Surgery: Top Recovery Secrets For Athletes

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

Discover the secrets to healing injuries without surgery in this groundbreaking episode of Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast! Hosts Mark Bell and Nsima Inyang sit down with recovery expert Rahul Naren Desai to reveal powerful strategies that athletes and fitness enthusiasts can use to recover efficiently and stay strong.From understanding the body’s natural ability to heal to exploring advanced recovery methods, this episode offers practical tools for anyone aiming to bounce back better than ever. Whether you’re a seasoned athlete or someone trying to overcome everyday aches and pains, this conversation will completely change how you think about injury recovery.Join us for episode 1135 of Mark Bell’s Power Project Podcast to gain life-changing insights that could help transform your approach to health, fitness, and personal development!Special perks for our listeners below!🥜 Protect Your Nuts With Organic Underwear 🥜➢https://nadsunder.com/Use code: POWERPROJECT to save 15% off your order!🚨 The Best Red Light Therapy Devices and Blue Blocking Glasses On The Market! 😎➢https://emr-tek.com/Use code: POWERPROJECT to save 20% off your order!👟 BEST LOOKING AND FUNCTIONING BAREFOOT SHOES 🦶➢https://vivobarefoot.com/powerproject🥩 HIGH QUALITY PROTEIN! 🍖 ➢ https://goodlifeproteins.com/ Code POWER to save 20% off site wide, or code POWERPROJECT to save an additional 5% off your Build a Box Subscription!🩸 Get your BLOODWORK Done! 🩸 ➢ https://marekhealth.com/PowerProject to receive 10% off our Panel, Check Up Panel or any custom panel, and use code POWERPROJECT for 10% off any lab!🥶 The Best Cold Plunge Money Can Buy 🥶 ➢ https://thecoldplunge.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save $150!!Self Explanatory 🍆 ➢ Enlarging Pumps (This really works): https://bit.ly/powerproject1Pumps explained:   ➢ https://withinyoubrand.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off supplements!➢ https://markbellslingshot.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off all gear and apparel!Follow Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast➢ https://www.PowerProject.live➢ https://lnk.to/PowerProjectPodcast➢ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/markbellspowerproject➢ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/markbellspowerprojectFOLLOW Mark Bell➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell➢https://www.tiktok.com/@marksmellybell➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybellFollow Nsima InyangFollow Nsima Inyang ➢ Ropes and equipment : https://thestrongerhuman.store➢ Community & Courses: https://www.skool.com/thestrongerhuman➢ YouTube : https://www.youtube.com/c/NsimaInyang➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/?hl=enFollow Andrew Zaragoza➢ Podcast Courses and Free Guides: https://pursuepodcasting.com/iamandrewz➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamandrewz/➢ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@iamandrewz

I kind of have a three-legged stool of regenerative medicine. So precision diagnosis, precision biologic. When a patient comes in, it's been six years or 15 years of chronic pain. It's not going away. And three months later, they're pain free, doing all the things they wanted to do for a decade. What's a stem cell do? A stem cell is the most native cell that can reproduce and create other tissue. We had a professional horse rider that kicked her in the knee. All the ligaments that were holding her kneecap to the inside

of the knee were all ruptured. She flew to us. Right now it's stable. Is this stem cell and PRP? This is the combination of the fertilizer and the seeds. Kind of seems like that's what red light does as well where it's like it's encouraging what's already like inside of us. There's a TRVP1 receptor that's on nerves. That receptor when activated causes pain and causes neural inflammation. When red and like inside of us. There's a TRVP1 receptor that's on nerves. That receptor when activated causes pain and causes neural inflammation. When red and near infrared light hits that, it deactivates it, it desensitizes it, and it's a good light source and it's powerful. You'll feel better right away. When it comes to

you know stem cells and PRP, is there a difference between stem cell and PRP? Are they different? Are they the same? I kind of get confused on some of the stuff. Yeah, they're very different. So the platelet rich plasma is a fluid that has a high concentration of platelets. And the platelets are the carriers of the growth factors. So they're like the fertilizer.

So a really easy way to think about it is if you cut yourself, you bleed, you need to stop bleeding. Like you're injured and what? Just gonna move this just a little bit. Right here. There you go. So what stops the bleeding are platelets.

They aggregate, they coagulate, they, you know, hemostasis, like stopping the bleeding. And then as they, so they form the clot, and as they break down, they release, they have alpha granules inside these little granules and they release them, they break down. All these growth factors are released into the area and they're signals.

They're like fertilizer, they call in the stem cells. So the new stem cells live everywhere, you know, in the fat and the bone marrow and your blood and the tissue, they all go to that area and they start the healing process. So it's a powerful signal. That's platelet rich plasma. It's super easy to get,

because you just have to go in your vein and take blood. And then you spin it down, you separate using centrifugation, this is gravity, right? That just speeds up gravity. You get the layer, like a Buffy coat layer in the blood. And that's the platelet rich layer. And then you mix it with a little bit of plasma.

So then if you have 200,000 platelets per microliter in your blood, then you can concentrate it to millions of platelets per microliter, per ml. And then when you inject it, it's like a turbo high octane, like, you know, fuel to help healing. So that's all that is. Now, stem cells, that's when you actually, either from yourself or some other source, you're getting the cells that are attracted to the area that can create new tissue, that can signal, you know, other mechanistic changes.

So they're a little bit more, what we've seen, they're a little bit more powerful in their effect. Okay, and so that's where you go into your bone marrow. You can harvest bone marrow. You take a whole bunch of bone marrow, and then just like that you use centrifugation, and you can concentrate it,

and then you can inject that the same day. You can go into fat and take fat. Fat has a ton of stem cells, and you can concentrate that, and then you can inject that into the tissue, and that will stimulate that same sort of response. It's more powerful. And then we talked about other stem cells you can get from umbilical stem cells, right, from placental tissue or even your own stem cells, you can send it to a lab and they can

isolate them and then they can grow them. So instead of having a small amount, you have tens of millions and then you can, and then a pure, they don't have any other cells with them. They're pure stem cell. And that's what you can put into your, like an IV or, you know, there are some of the studies, you know, even abroad or like those are very highly specialized studies that they can put it into your arteries. If somebody has a stroke or somebody has a heart attack, they can put those stem cells into that tissue and stimulate healing and regeneration. And when it comes to healing, what are some things that you've seen with some stem cells

and PRP and stuff like that? You know, what, if you could maybe give us a percentage of, you know, how many, you know, what percentage of people are getting whatever they're coming to you for, what are they, you know, getting from that? The outcomes? Yeah. Yeah. So one is the, you know, I kind of have a three-legged stool of regenerative medicine. So precision diagnosis, precision biologics, like what you're using in precision delivery. If you get, so it's three-legged stool, if you only have two legs of a stool, it's going to fall down, it's not going to work. And so you could have, you know,

LeBron James stem cells, and you put it in the wrong place for the wrong indication, you're not going to get any benefit. So really there's the art of the medicine. So if you have the right diagnosis, you know what's going on. You have a tendon tear. Sometimes it's easy, right? Like I have, you know, some before and after pictures

of my own body and other patients. It's very easy to know what's wrong. And then you get a good biologic, you know, product, and you precisely put that in there with, I'm a muscle interventional radiologist, I'm really good at putting needles in places very precisely using image guidance. I'd say probably 80, 90% success rate,

very high success rate. There are times though that first leg, the diagnosis, if somebody comes in and they have end-stage knee arthritis, they need a knee replacement, right? So you can tell, so there's an indication, it's not magic, it's science. And sometimes it's too far gone.

Now you can try it and maybe they get some short-term benefit, but if they have a really deformed, because the arthritis gets so bad and they have a deformed knee, and it's structurally, there's no integrity, they need a knee replacement, unfortunately. You know, and we see certain things, hips,

if somebody has really bad hip arthritis, much more challenging, knees are really resilient, right? And then there's also, when patient comes to me, we talk about, what's our goal? I mean, that's really important, is it maintenance? So some patients come in, they have bad arthritis, but it's not deformed knee, but it's pretty significant. And I'll tell them that this is something

that we can give you a really high quality of life, but you're coming back for more. If you have enough birthdays and you're active enough, you're gonna be back, but we can give you, you don't have to have a replacement. We can see if that can happen. There are other times, like I can show you with my own Achilles tendon, where that's a fix.

Like we're gonna fix it. It may take one, two or three rounds of treatment. It may take a year to fully heal, but we can fix it. And that's where, you know, that's an end outcome. And if it doesn't get fixed, then you need to go. So that's my 47 year old male with us a few years ago. And you blew out your Achilles tendon? Yeah, so see that, the circle thing,

that should all be that strand there. It should be thick and dark. Yeah. Okay, there's a big white part. That's all fluid in the tear. That was horrifically painful. It went, I have a collagen deficiency of Ehlers-Danlos and my collagen starts to come apart

and that was just coming apart like tissue paper over the course of a year. So that wasn't an acute playing basketball and it ruptured. That was like pain and then degeneration and tearing over time. And it got so bad, I couldn't walk. And where was the pain like in that exact same spot? Because sometimes the pains referred to other spots, but it was just like in the back of your heel. Yeah, back of my heel, all the way up the calf, like even in, I was getting cramping

in the muscles because everything was compensating. And so we took bone marrow, my bone marrow, my fat and platelets, made a concoction, 20 ccs injected up and down that tendon. And then I did rehab. So I was off it for about three or four days, then in a boot for a couple of weeks and then physical therapy and time. And then you can go to the next slide.

Jeez. That's a next slide. Jeez. That's a year later. Wow. Right? So. That's profound. Pretty bad ass, right? I mean, what else, did you do anything else for this, I mean, you obviously did some physical therapy,

but what else did you do? Prayer. Yeah, good living. But that's just healing. I'll tell you this, the most incredible thing of experiencing this was I was having a year of pain. It was so bad. And see, when I was going to work,

I remember seeing somebody walking their dog and I started crying in my car. Cause I couldn't walk. It hurts so bad. And they did that procedure. Three days later, I had no pain. And I stopped all pain, like I had some pain medications for after the procedure

because it's a pretty painful procedure. They go in my bone marrow, take fat, and then inject it in the area. And I was just expecting horrible pain for weeks and everything went away and that's that amazing, like your body's healing and it felt warm and soothing and it was like doing something. And then I went back in and there was a hole

and I went back to work. Cause I was like, this feels too damn good. What's going on? And I went in and I wanted to see. So I looked with ultrasound and I started pushing on the tissue and it had gelled in there already. It had set like putty. Like I kind of pushed, I didn't push too hard because I was trying to place it, but it would kind of set in. And then over time that was a scaffold, a bioscaffold and all the cells crawl in there, those, they're tinnocytes, and they grow in. And, you know, it's a fully functional, and it's remodeling over the, because it was thick for a while, and now it's almost the same size as the other,

and it's super strong, and I got to get the muscle back and use BFR more regularly. But that's, that is consistent. So I've treated several thousand patients, and I'm super curious. I'm a very curious human being. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, several thousand patients and I'm super curious. I'm a very curious human being. I'm not the smartest guy in the world for sure, but I'm very curious. And that's why, you know, I've got to where I've got to is just, I wanted to know because I have a really good skill at being a radiologist. And so when we first started doing this, patients were like, I feel better.

I'm like, okay. I thought they were just trying to make me feel good because I'm a nice guy. I'm a nice guy too. So I'm like, okay. But I was like, okay, why is it? Why are you feeling better? So I scanned them again and they wouldn't, the insurance wouldn't pay to scan them. So I remember the first time I did that first was rotator cuff. One of the guys that worked for us and I treated him seven weeks later. He came back and he's like, doc, this feels amazing. And it had been two years. He was a 25 year old, he fell skiing.

He had a small tear, it was too small to do surgery. So they just did cortisone injections. And then he came back, they wouldn't pay for a new MRI. So I paid, I was working at the MRI center. I gave the MRI tech a subway sandwich to scan him again. And at night, it was like seven o'clock and we scanned him and it looked, it was like this. And it was just six weeks, right?

And I was totally blown away. And that was the first, like, okay, something's happening here. And then we started to do it over. And it took about 30, 40 patients. This is 2008, 30, 40 patients to be like, okay, this is fricking incredible. Like everything we're putting in properly

with image guidance, everything, like it's fricking healing. And that's not supposed to happen. Like the dictum in medicine is, like you said, and it was like, you know, because there's a lot of, unfortunately, there's a lot of people that are doing it the wrong way and it doesn't work. And then it gets a bad name.

Like this is a very precise way of doing things that gives you consistent outcomes. So question about doing it the wrong way. What is typically being done that most people are getting as far as like these type of practices that is the wrong way. What is typically being done that most people are getting as far as like these type of practices that is the wrong way? A couple of things. One, diagnosis. Like they just don't get the right, especially I do a pretty complex spine and you know, I don't want to go too deep into it. I have a pretty

complex analogy of the spines like a building, you know, there's joints, discs, there's a lot of things that could go wrong and you need to treat it comprehensively. So one is just not getting the right diagnosis. Two, when you're using biologics, we talked about platelet-rich plasma, we want lots of platelets. There's a concentration ability. So when I do these procedures, sometimes we take 300 cc's of blood. That's a lot of about 300 cc's to get seven or eight cc's of product. So you're taking a whole bunch of blood and you're concentrating and you get tons of platelets. So we're getting 10, 15, 20 times the concentration of platelets.

So you have lots of growth factors. A lot of places they'll take, they say PRP, and they'll take 20 cc's of blood and they'll spin it down to 10. There's a thing called math. That's only two, at maximum, that's two times concentration, maximum. That's only two at maximum. That's two times concentration maximum that's just math and

There's no system like when you spin there's no system that's a hundred percent efficient So you're losing a lot of the sticky platelets on the test tube And so then you have you're not even putting in platelet rich plasma you're putting in sometimes I've tested those devices some of them. It's a lower concentration than your whole blood Sometimes I've tested those devices. Some of them, it's a lower concentration than your whole blood. So it's totally useless. And what you're charging patient, it looks cool, you inject it.

So that's another thing is product. And that's what that three-legged stool. And the last is putting it in the right place. So when we do these things, we use ultrasound guidance. We know exactly where the tear is. We fill up the defect. If you're treating a disc, you put it in the right area. If you're treating a knee, make sure you're actually in the joint using ultrasound guidance and

all those things. You would leverage all the things that you want to, you know, to get to to get to a positive outcome. And then even then we fail sometimes. We're not perfect. Like I said, there is, you know, one out of 10, two out of 10 patients that we, we treat, we're highly accountable for, we take their money, you know, and put them through discomfort and pain and doesn't work. That sucks. Like I remember those cases more than sometimes the wins because I'm very highly accountable to our patients. We want them to succeed.

And that's why, you know, we're standing from this red light. That's why, you know, PEMF, that's why we talk about health and wellness and all the things that go into creating a good outcome. It's not just this part of it. There's this whole continuum of health that helps us. But that's what we see. I think what's promising about some of these things is that

like taking something out of your own body and then putting it back into your own body for your own body to encourage itself to get better. To me, that sounds awesome. That sounds like a huge win. We're not relying on some chemical, we're not relying on some outside source. Not that there would be anything bad with traditional medical interventions and things like that, but I think that this seems promising, you know, and the fact that you're basically just asking your body to utilize more of what it already has in it. And, you know, we're going to talk about your red light

and stuff like that too. And I think, and you could fill in the blanks on some of this if I'm wrong, but it kind of seems like that's what red light does as well, where it's like, it's encouraging what's light does as well, where it's like, it's encouraging what's already like inside of us. It's already in there. And we just need to figure out ways of,

how do we elicit this? How do we get this going? And maybe even for folks that have something like arthritis, which may not be able to be assisted by some of these current technologies, maybe we'll find the right thing that encourages the body to even get rid of pain that comes from something like arthritis. Yeah.

Can we scroll? I want to show you a couple of, if you can go to, because I think that's, so this was a case I wanted to show and see what we talked about this. So we had a professional horse rider got kicked, spooked the horse, her horse. And that was not the exact horse, but probably something like that, kicked her in the knee. She looked down and her kneecap was dislocated. She had a grade three MCL,

you hear like in sports or MCL inside that ligament that holds the femur and the tibia together was completely ruptured. You can see that on the first screen. And then the middle screen is the ACL. There's the femur that's coming down, the tibia, and then there's a band that goes horizontally through there. That's completely ruptured. And that's an MRI. So when you see that to talk about athlete getting injured and they make a diagnosis, this is the gold standard

of how you make that diagnosis. So the end, the ACL is completely ruptured. And then all the ligaments that were holding her kneecap to the inside of the knee were all ruptured. And she was going to have to have three surgeries, surgeries 18 months of rehab if we can scroll to the next one She flew to us and this is that we talked about precision diagnosis. So this is me using live x-ray That's the knee the femur and the tibia and the dark you see the needle of thin wire like Projection there and then the dark stuff there is contrast. So that's iodine-based contrast. And I'm precisely placing the needle and injecting and making sure I get

the distribution of those cells along that torn ligament. So if you imagine that ligament is torn like this, we're filling that defect with that goopy stuff, that fat's really nice, and then we let it set. And so in the bottom picture, you can see the contrast is kind of covering that area on the bottom right. And then if you scroll, yeah, on the bottom right there. This was, this patient was from Georgia.

They flew back home and they kept getting MRIs. They were really curious, like me too. So they would go and they're paying it for themselves and they're getting their MRIs. And we see now there's that bridge. Before it was completely non-contiguous that ACL is connecting but it still lacks so it's healing but it's kind of like this it was like this now it's like this and on the other image there's

just a thin band that's going vertically that's connecting if we go to the next one there right in the middle look how much thicker it looks yeah that band that's starting to heal those other ligaments are healing and that's a notch view on the right That's it's sweeping between the femoral condyles the two dark balls. There's the the Band that's coming through that's actually connecting and then if we go to the next one That was the last one and that was read by the radiologist, you know, independent of us as normal MRI. And we've about 50 cases like this and it's consistently, if you go to the next one, that's the MCL. MCLs heal most of the time even on their own. We maybe accelerated it or got a better healing.

And then go to the next slide. This is pretty cool where you see zero when she came in at time of injury, like completely discontinuous. And also when she was lax. So we can't show this on this image, but on examination both from the orthopedic surgeon and us, her femur and the ACL test was positive for it being ruptured. And then you can see from zero to seven, it's connecting. Just starting to bridge seven to 11. You're starting to have a more robust thick band. And then at seven months, not only is it thick,

it's taut, right? Now it's stable. So that's what it's able to do and all of those things. So she didn't have to have a surgery. And just thinking about these proper indications, like there's a lot of kids that tear their ACLs. Oh yeah. Right, and they have to go through big surgeries

and they gotta put holes through their growth plates and all kinds of stuff. Like this is like, this is a boon to society. And that's from my passion is like, that's why I'm here, is we need to talk about this stuff and get this out there to the community. Is this stem cell and PRP?

This is the combination of the fertilizer and the seeds. So if the stem cells are the seeds, the fertilizer is the PRP, we want to mix those. Have you guys gotten into utilizing anything else in addition to that? Like there's some of these new peptides out and things like that. There's copper peptide, there's BPC 157 and stuff like that.

I think we have patients that are utilizing those and leveraging those. I think they're really powerful. Right now with kind of the regulatory environment in the US, I've stayed away. Like I know, and I'm not saying that they're not good. I'm not saying that exosomes aren't amazing. I'm not saying that placental stem cells,

like right now what we use is everything from you, right? That's not to say that those other things don't work. I think there's real value in some of those things because sometimes the person, the individual just might not have the capacity to heal. But you don't want to use something in your practice that's like kind of sketchy and then it could be like pulled off the market.

Yeah, or I don't get to practice anymore, right? I mean, it's like, I really want to, I want this, I love what I do and we've treated thousands of patients and helped them so much. I've been helped by it. I have like another couple of slides, my blowback, I have a four or five disc herniation. I mean, it completely changed my life,

like to give me back even simple things. Like I never sat down, I had heard my back in college, I told you I was in athletics and dead lifting. You were a rower, you said, right? Yeah, I rode a large thing. And well, we were division one and then after Prop 48, we went to club. Okay.

But pretty stellar group. But we had, I had injured myself in med school with dead lifting and had to go to the hospital and spent a week down medication and then started to have episodes. So 10 years, nothing, felt pretty good. And then started to have episodes as I aged and limitations. I couldn't run anymore.

I couldn't do certain things. You're gaining weight and stuff too. Yeah. I used to, I used to have a picture. Yeah. I've gained a lot of weight. I just, the stuff I love that I couldn't do certain things. And you're gaining weight and stuff too, right? Yeah, you saw a picture. Yeah, I've gained a lot of weight. Just the stuff I love that I couldn't do. The thing I noticed after I had the stem cell injection in my back and it helped me heal, a few months later I was sitting down for dinner

and I noticed, I'm like, wait a minute, I'm sitting down for dinner. I hadn't literally sat down for dinner with my family and sat there, I was sitting there for like an hour talking to them because my back would hurt. And I was standing, I would always least sat down for dinner with my family and sat there, I was sitting there for like an hour talking to them, because my back would hurt. And I was standing, I would always stand at the counter and eat, and they would eat, because I didn't want to sit down because it would hurt.

And so those little things where we don't have to have pain but we change the way that we live. And so that's what's so profound that we see when we do these types. And I think in doctors in general, it's not saying this is the only thing that does it, but it's really compelling to give somebody their life back. And for me, regenerative medicine, we can change the trajectory of somebody's life. It's not just fixing the issue at that time

or pain management, making it feel better for a moment, but hey, we can heal something and long-term we're able to change that trajectory of that person's life. And the earlier we catch it, the better results that we have and the longer that we can help that patient. It's pretty amazing though, because like, you know, grapplers, soccer players, et cetera, one of the first things that people want to do, like I had a meniscectomy when I was maybe 23,

you know what I mean, part of my meniscus removed. And if this was an option, that definitely wouldn't have needed to happen. Because a lot of people don't even, a lot of people that have meniscus tears, some of them don't even get surgery and they end up being okay. But a lot of times doctors just, I'm not saying this is a dig on doctors, but sometimes people just really want to cut in, right? And you don't always have to do that, man.

No. I mean, there's pretty significant, I don't know if we have, if we scroll up again, that's my low back, I'll go the other way. Yeah, keep going, that's my low back that got injected, just we talked about that, we can scroll up. That was the herniation that went away, so that's the herniation, on the right it's gone. Wow. So you can see on the left, sorry, that's huge.

And that's no joke in terms of pain. Sometimes that pain runs all the way down the leg. It's like a sciatic type thing. And it's just, I don't know what caused it in me, but I got that when I was maybe around 20 years old. I was like training for football and just doing a bunch of different stuff and lifting and sprinting.

And I just got hurt and one day just could barely get out of bed and then even like even going to the bathroom hurt. And it just threw me off as a person, like threw me way off. I just, I didn't know what to do. I went to the doctor and they were like, oh, you've herniated a disc and like,

you might need to get your spine fused and all this stuff and like, take a little bit of time, you know, to don't try to lift. And so I did that for like two weeks and I was like, this is not, this is, it got worse, you know, in that time, my back got worse and I was like, I'm just going to go to the gym and just move around and do whatever I can. And luckily, maybe it was just being young, a few weeks went by and I exercised and it started to go away, which I was grateful for. But that kind of pain, I mean, it's amazing what pain can do to you.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't think a lot of when you're young, you don't understand it. And then when you do have an episode of like low back pain, oh man, it's not good. Matthew Foskowski I think everybody listening, I think everyone's experienced some sort of like back tweak or twinge where you have to kind of use the counter in your house to sort of support yourself or just getting your shoes on.

And it's just, it's very rough when those things happen. And we've had friends, Andrew Zaragoza, he, you know, unfortunately he suffered tons of back pain for decades of his life. It's like, man, that's rough. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, thank goodness, most patients that are most people that have that happen, it can be self-limiting and the body heals

and it can go away. All right. So that's the nice thing. What we, and that's, there can be self-limiting and the body heals and it can go away. All right, so that's the nice thing. What we, and there's been some naysayers even to what we do is, oh, that can happen on its own. It's like, yeah, that can happen. But when a patient comes in, it's been six years or 15 years of chronic pain. It's not going away, right?

And then we were able to do an intervention and three months later, they're pain-free doing all the things they wanted to do for a decade. It's pretty compelling, right? And then we do the imaging and it's corresponding with that. That's what's driven me, right? Like, do you see that consistently over and over and over again?

And pretty much everywhere that we put, use that three-legged stool analogy, get the right diagnosis, use the right material and put in the right place. Like that's what we're teaching. Like we want docs to start to use that philosophy and, you know, affect the change because it, with a simple example of meniscectomy, unfortunately, the standard of care is that you go in, you have a meniscal tear and now more doctors are getting a little bit wiser, even the orthopedic surgeons, but it was go in and scope it and cut it out.

And you know what that leads to? Arthritis, right? It actually accelerates progression because you take the cushion out and now you've changed that. There's a hoop strength that that meniscus provides. You take that out and now you're gonna get bone on bone much more quickly.

So if there's a way that you can, some tears you need it. You have a bucket handle tear, the meniscus is flipped into the notch and it's locking, absolute surgery, you need it, right? But there's others that are just the kind of it's a degenerative tear or a flap tear, either leave it alone, rehab it and you know, hopefully it gets better or stimulate healing, right? And it's such an easy, lower cost, less invasive, but you're going to prevent all those downstream issues. What does bone on bone mean? Where you lose the, the cushion.

Okay. So if you have a normal joint, I don't know if we have, if we scroll down like- Cause we hear that a lot. I hear like someone's like, Oh man, I went to the doctor for my hip and they said it was bone on bone. And you're like, what the fuck does that even mean? Yeah, well in a normal joint,

you have two bones that are opposing, they're coming together and you have cartilage. So you have a highland cartilage, it's like the glass like smooth surface on both sides. And then in the middle, like a knee, you have a meniscus. Sometimes you don't. So like with a shoulder, you have a labrum, you know, it's kind of it's around the socket, but you have this these two glass like surfaces that are rotating against each other. And that provides, you know, nice movement, no pain, there's some

lubrication there and things are moving well. If you have an injury or an instability or the meniscus and a weight bearing joint, that goes away or there's some damage and you start to get, it's kind of like Formica, you start to get chipping of that, then that's the beginning of arthritis, osteoarthritis. So you have the breakdown of that cartilage and then you get the bone is exposed, the underlying bone.

And then when you get no cartilage or it's all gone, then you have bone on bone. Okay. And that's where one of the pain generators, it's not just a loss. The cartilage doesn't hurt that much. You lose the cartilage, it's the subchondral. Chondral is cartilage, the subchondral bone. And that's where the pain comes from.

So a lot of the, when you lose that overlying protective surface, then you start to have pain, discomfort. And when we see the, when you lose that overlying protective surface, then you start to have pain, discomfort. And when we see it on MRIs, like there's, you know, cysts and bone marrow edema are swelling in the bone. That's where the pain is generated from. So now some of the more elegant or more invasive techniques and maybe improved techniques of using stem cells or PRP is that not only do you put it in the joint, but you drill into the bone and you inject,

because that's the soil. So if you think of the highland cartilage as the grass, you want to treat the soil too. So sometimes you're actually injecting the stem cells into the bone? Wow. Yeah, a lot of folks, not just us, but this is in the regenerative medicine community,

docs that are doing this, either orthopedics, sports just us, but this is in the regenerative medicine community, docs that are doing this, either orthopedics, sports medicine docs, they're starting to realize the benefits of actually injecting the bone. And this has been used, there was a Philippe Hernegose, an orthopedic surgeon in France, and he's been doing it for, or he did it, I don't know if he's not practicing anymore, but he's been doing it for 70 years. So there's like a lot of literature for avascular necrosis of the hip, where they drill into the bone and inject stem cells and bone marrow aspirate.

And so now that's translating into like knee joints. It's working really well or even smaller joints in the hands and feet. So is it possible over time to like have some of these, like could, if somebody had a meniscus partial removal or any of these things, could that regrow over time with some of these, like could, if somebody had a meniscus partial removal or any of these things, could that regrow over time with some of this or no? From what we're doing, probably not.

We can help it become more robust and heal kind of like we've seen with, so say there's a frayed degenerative meniscus, it's just kind of, you know, wow. Similar to like a tendon is like a rope, right? Rope, good, good analogy. So a healthy tendon is like a good brand new rope that you buy from, and Seema from the,

and then the tendinopathy or a tendon that's breaking down is a rope that's frayed and those pieces are coming apart. So the same thing, the exact anatomy of it's a little bit different, but fibrocardilage like a meniscus, you know, it's a kind of different, but fibrocardiol is like a meniscus, it's kind of a rubbery fibrocardial tissue. And so as that breaks down, if it comes apart completely,

or there's a big chunk that's gone, that's gonna be hard. I mean, maybe with filling that defect or doing a combination, there are a lot of docs now doing combination surgeries, where they're doing like an implant and then they're putting stem cells around it. So there is that ability. So with that question.

But sometimes like if my tendon had tore completely, like you saw that there was a little band that was connecting, if it had come apart, I need a surgery. But then if you do surgery and stem cells, maybe that in certain instances, that might be the right procedure. So with the stem cells, you're pulling some fat.

Are you pulling enough fat to make a difference? To where someone's almost getting a little liposuction out of the deal? Yeah, if they're really lean. Yeah, sometimes it's hard. We've had some NBA athletes, I think one of the folks that came in, not too long ago, one of our other doctors did it, and I think they were 8%, and they had to work really hard to find. So we use ultrasound guidance.

They grabbed fat from somebody else, I guess. Yeah, we had to, and they actually had, they took some for the therapy, they were doing a knee treatment, and they were 8%, so they had to work pretty hard to find that, kind of on the top of the glutes, there was a little bit of fat, and we can use ultrasound so we can see where we're going. So they pull that out. And then we

took some of that and we were talking about that we sent it to a lab. We did part of that for the treatment that day. And then we sent some of the cells to a lab in California and they isolate the stem cells. They bank that, they freeze it. So you have it forever. And it's kind of like their sourdough starter. And then they make loaves of bread. So those are the doses, they freeze it so you have it forever. And it's kind of like their sourdough starter. And then they make loaves of bread. So those are the doses and they freeze those. So whenever he needs a booster, because he's going to, like his knees, like I don't even know how he's playing.

He's like pretty awesome, super tough guy, very good athlete, but it's gonna need like boosters. We know that. And, you know, I think he's early thirties. So not just for his career, he's like, I want like two or three more years, but also for his life, right? And he has young kids and wants to be active and healthy. So we're going to store those so he can get continued dosing in that knee.

And the other cool thing that we see is that there's often a progression of healing, right? So you do it if it works for you. And we talked about needs, one of the things, my mantras, you know, if you have enough birthdays, you're active enough, you're coming back. But each time you do it, there's a possibility and there's a good likelihood, especially if it works well, that you get cumulative benefit. So we're not coming back to the baseline. If you're doing it, it feels really good, it wanes, but it's better than where we started.

And then you got to do it again. And then it's each time you get cumin, sometimes it heals. Is there an ideal frequency for these people? It's case by case. Yeah, it's really case by case. That's what we've seen. There have been some docs that are out there that are very prescriptive.

Yeah. Like there's like, okay, you're going to come back. And I don't, I think the, you know, if you're doing that with PRP or you have these, you know, these doses, probably it's your medicine, you know, buy you for you. It's probably pretty safe. There's a cost to it.

But what I have used is just symptoms. So if it starts talking to you, when you wake up, it's like, ah, it's stiff, a little bit achy. Okay, and then when you get a benefit, it's like, man, this feels amazing. And then it stops feeling amazing. And then when you go from 100, even to 80 kind of sucks, right?

So, okay, now it's time. And part of the degenerative process, it's very much like the cells, the genetics of it, they're expressing genes, they're expressing proteins, and you start to go from kind of a happy milieu and happy environment, very simplistically to a angry one. And you get kind of a cytokine storm or interleukins that are pissed off.

And we hear about it from COVID, everybody's kind of aware of those things. So you shift to this inflammatory, you know, milieu and vibe and your body knows it. So it'll be a little sore, you might get swelling in the joint and that's when to jump on it. Don't wait, don't let it get bad

because your body's telling you that it's time for a booster. And so patients will always, they'll come back, often come back for that. And that's the part of our education to them is like somebody comes in and they have a really degenerative joint. It's that pre-education that if it wears off, it's not failed. That's not a treatment failure. That's just time to get a booster. Is there any reason to take stem cells from like a really great athlete or it like, does that do anything extra or is it just a pipe dream for me?

Yeah, no way. That's why it is like you can have LeBron James stem cells in plays. But there, you know, currently no, there is definitely some concern that there's some, we call this this, there's a term called immunoprivileged. So stem cells are immunoprivileged that you can potentially take a pure isolated stem cell from somebody and give it to someone else.

And they may not have a reaction response, but the body's smart. And if you keep doing that, it will respond. There's enough antigens in that cell and surface that your body can, so you can have a host versus graft kind of response. So the ideal is you, but there are patients that are just, they're too sickly, or they don't have the time. We're talking about potential applications in the future

where somebody has a stroke, and it's very time sensitive. They need something for healing and repair that eventually I can definitely see where there's off-the-shelf cells, or they call and you have them easily available and you're injecting that into patients. They're even, they're not using it right now. I think in humans, there's definitely studies

of using like banked platelets, right? Or the growth factors from platelets to treat. And so I could see that very easily where we have these products that are healing instead of using corticosteroids, which feel good, but really break down the tissue, right? That you're using, you know, banked products of platelets to help people.

Would it potentially be more effective from family? Potentially. I mean, you have maybe, you know, a closer match, right? Again, the stem cells have that ability to be a little bit immunoprivileged, so you can use them, but there's still, there's definitely concerns. Like, I don't think it's being used lightly and we definitely, for that level here in the States,

we don't have that capacity at this point. But I do see the same thing with placental cells, right? So you have placental cells that are coming from like the birth product and from Wharton's jelly and they're getting stem cells from there and isolating them and then purifying, getting rid of all the other things and they have a pure stem cell product. And those are being used, you know, those are autologous.

So from somebody else, I'm sorry, allogenic from some other source, from another human. And the studies are pretty compelling overseas that this is helping patients and it's easily available. Like the cost is less because they're creating it at the source. So super interesting stuff, but I think the time will tell as far as long-term.

But there is some philosophy for me. I like, like you said, there's some elegance or beauty of it to heal yourself with your own tissue. I will never go to a doctor ever again about my general health. All they wanna do is put you on pills. Really well said there by Dana White. Couldn't agree with him more.

A lot of us are just trying to get jacked and tanned. A lot of us just wanna look good, feel good. And a lot of the symptoms that we might acquire as we get older, some of the things that we might have, high cholesterol or these various things, it's amazing to have somebody looking at your blood work as you're going through the process, as you're trying to become a better athlete,

somebody that knows what they're doing, they can look at your cholesterol, they can look at the various markers that you have, and they can kind of see where you're at and they can help guide you through that. And there's a few aspects too, where it's like, yes, I mean, no, no shade to doctors, but a lot of times they do want to just stick you

on medication. A lot of times there is supplementation that can help with this. Merrick Health, these patient care coordinators are going to also look at the way you're living your lifestyle because there's a lot of things you might be doing that if you just adjust that, boom, you could be at the right levels,

including working with your testosterone. And there's so many people that I know that are looking for, they're like, hey, should I do that? They're very curious. And they think that testosterone is going to all of a sudden kind of turn them into the Hulk, but that's not really what happens.

It can be something that can be really great for your health because you can just basically live your life a little stronger, just like you were maybe in your 20s and 30s. And this is the last thing to keep in mind guys, when you get your blood work done at a hospital, they're just looking at like these minimum levels. At Merrick Health, they try to bring you up to ideal levels

for everything you're working with. Whereas if you go into a hospital and you have 300 nanograms per deciliter of test, you're good bro. Even though you're probably feeling like shit. At Merrick Health, they're going to try to figure out what type of things you can do in terms of your lifestyle, and if you're a candidate, potentially TRT. So these are things to pay attention to

to get you to your best self. And what I love about it is a little bit of the back and forth that you get with the patient care coordinator. They're dissecting your blood work. It's not like if you just get this email back and it's just like, hey, try these five things. Somebody's actually on the phone with you going over every step and what you should do.

Sometimes it's supplementation, sometimes it's TRT, and sometimes it's simply just some lifestyle habit changes. All right guys, if you want to get your blood work checked and also get professional help from people who are going to be able to get you towards your best levels, head to MerrickHealth.com and use code PowerProject for 10% off any panel of your choice.

Just to kind of back up a little bit, I know you mentioned some of what a stem cell does, but like what is a stem cell and why, because my understanding is the body will make stem cells, but a lot of times it's in stress situations, like with fasting or dry fasting, your body might produce some stem cells. So what's a stem cell do?

Yeah, a stem cell is the most native. There's different types, there's different levels, but the most native cell that can reproduce and create other tissue. So it can differentiate into different types of tissue. So there's a pluripotent or kind of omnipotent cell that can do anything. You know, the most native cell that can become any sort of cell. As we grow and as we age and they differentiate, they differentiate to different levels.

So there are some cells that are neural stem cells, there's some that are GI that can become pancreas and liver tissue. And then there's others that are mesenchymal stem cells that can become bone, tendon, ligament, disc. So they're sort of differentiated, right? So you couldn't take like the stem cells that we're using and inject it into a pancreas and cure diabetes per se.

So you'd have to neuroendocrine cells would be that specific lineage. So it's just how far back are you going? So those cells live in us. Like you have those cells everywhere. They're in your bone marrow. Like those are mesenchymal stem cells. Mesenchymal stem cells are in your fat, right?

And you have stem cells that are in your blood. And when you are in a time, under a time of stress or injury, they're activated, right? They can replicate, so they can replicate as well, but they're also activated. So that initial, you have a wound, you have an injury, you get stimulated with red light or near infrared light, they're activated and then they mobilize.

So that's a really cool thing. So they mobilize and where do they go? They go into your bloodstream. So imagine the reservoirs, so where they hang out, it's like the fire department. They're kind of hanging out at the fire department. And the fire department's your bone marrow. The fire department's your fat. They live in these niches.

In the bone marrow, they have these little nests of stem cells. They live in there. In the fat, they live around the blood vessels. They're called pericytes. And they actually hug. There's some awesome YouTube videos that they literally show the stem cells crawling

into the blood vessels. When the body has a signal of need, they're activated. They crawl out of those niches. They crawl into the blood vessels. So imagine the blood vessels are like the highway. They're jumping into the fire truck, getting onto the highways. Those are the highway systems.

So they jump into the blood vessels and then they circulate around the body. And wherever there's injury, there's homing mechanisms. So these blood vessels, you know, they're flying through all these blood vessels. And then if there's an area of injury or inflammation, then they stop there. The channels in the blood vessels, the walls, open up and they crawl out, right? And then so they're mobilized to those areas. So that's how kind of this process works normally. So that's just the native process.

Anything we can do to kind of stimulate that or push that into a positive arena, that's what we're trying to do. Okay, so kind of a good segue to, when we talk about the stem cell activation, they did the, you want me talking about the study for Red Light, the stem cell activation? It seems like a good, a good spot. One of the things that really got me in, I've been using Red Light for our patients and

helping them for about seven to 10 years, like talking to patients, having them, you know, buy their own units, go to different facilities. And if they wanted to optimize the results of what we're doing with the cell therapies. And one of the studies that really was compelling to me and kind of got me locked in on, hey, we need to be using this consistently, was one where they looked, they did blood sampling of the peripheral blood and they looked for stem cells. And there's a marker, surface marker on cells called CD34. It's an engine.

They can look at it and so you can count how many stem cells there are in your blood. So they did that and they looked at macrophages. Then they shined, they irradiated, put red light near infrared on just the tibia, the lower leg for 15 minutes. And two hours later, and then every day for four days, they evaluated the patient's blood, they drew blood again.

And on average in two hours, there was a 300% increase in peripheral stem cells, just from that small exposure. That lasted anywhere from a day to four days. And there was a thousand percent increase in the macrophages, which can be a healing white blood cell. So powerful activation of your stem cell system. So that's where you talk about activation and mobilization, like calling them to come. So that's like getting a mini dose of IV stem cell system. So that's where you talk about activation and mobilization, like calling them to come.

So that's like getting a mini dose of IV stem cells just from sitting like a really passive energy source and stimulating the body. So imagine getting that every few days. Those stem cells are gonna be in your bloodstream. They're going to go to areas of injury. They're gonna go to areas of breakdown where you didn't even know stuff's breaking down. They're going to go with healing if you're

stressing and working out tissue. They're going to allow that to heal better. They're going to cross the blood brain barrier. They're going to get into the brain and help with neurocognitive disease and disorders. And we're already seeing that with these types of therapies, helping with Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. And that's where they really feel like it's not just shining the light on the head, right? It's the systemic activation of the stem cells and these immune cells that are helping healing. I mean, I think one thing that people are just so curious

about is like, how is this possible with just light coming from a device, right? What's going on? Yeah, so there's, if we can go to one of the slides there, I'm a PowerPoint junkie, so if we have, so mitochondria, we're taking photonic energy, so light energy from like the sun, and we have mitochondria, so do plant cells, right? And we use those to change this light energy into chemical energy, okay? And in the plant cells, they have chloroplasts, which are super efficient at

doing that. We're not that efficient, but we still have that ability. And we take that for granted when you go out in the sun, you get tan. It's creating a biochemical change from taking sunlight and creating that energy. Can you move up to the next? So this, the visible light spectrum, what they've learned is that if you look at photobiomodulation, that's what we're talking about. So using photon energy to modulate biologic systems, there's about 12,000 articles on PubMed. I mean, there's a ton of research. This is not a hocus pocus. Yeah. But the different light waves, red and near infrared penetrate different levels of the tissue. Okay, you can go up to the next.

There's one slide here. So this is in that electromagnetic spectrum. There's, so you can see there's a big spectrum, and it's how long the wavelengths are. So really short to really long. So those wavelengths, visible light, you have from purple to red, from the violet to red, and we're talking about just a sliver of the red,

and then also that first part of the infrared. So the infrared you can't see. So then there's a difference. There's near infrared, so near to the red light. So near infrared, and then there's far infrared. The far infrared are longer and they cause tissue heating. So that's when you look at a sauna, it's infrared, but it's far infrared.

So then they have different effects, which is great. Sauna is amazing. Heat shock proteins is a different mechanism. This is not heating. The benefits of red light and near infrared is not the heating. It's modulation. Let's go to the next. You know laser is coherent, it's focused. It's really high energy and can cut but it's providing the same type of benefit. So if someone has a very focal issue, you can use laser and put into tissue. LED or light emitting diode does the same. It's the light, but it's more over a more diffuse area.

And in some ways that's even better. It doesn't penetrate as deeply, but deep enough. Let's go to the, especially if it's powerful enough. Keep going. Keep going. These are just our devices. Keep going. Keep going, keep going, this is just our devices. Keep going, keep going. Oh, that's why I have to, yeah, I just wanted to get, keep going.

There's another slide here that I, this is what I wanted to talk about. The actual mechanistic, like what's happening, right? We are, there's three main mechanisms when we talk about red near infrared light on tissues. The one we hear about all the time is mitochondria. And so it's mitochondrial activation. So when red and near-infrared light hit the cell in the mitochondria, it changes the way that that mitochondria function and how efficient it is.

Okay, and there's a electron transport chain. The light knocks off nitric oxide, okay, from the cytochrome C oxidase. There's a photoreceptor and then oxygen is able to bind, and then every cycle of that, you know, phosphorylation cycle, it creates 32 ATP instead of two with the nitric oxide on it. So it's way more efficient, the cell has much more energy, but now it's also there's more nitric oxide in the system, so there's better blood flow, vasodilation, so there's other benefits from that.

That's the targeted effect, so that's, so there's other benefits from that. That's the targeted effect. So that's when you shine light on a specific tissue. The other one is this TRIPV1, the one is hard to see on here, it didn't come across, but there's a TRVP1 receptor that's on nerves. That receptor when activated causes pain and causes neural inflammation. So patients that have chronic pain, these receptors are really activated. When red and near infrared light hits that, it deactivates it, it desensitizes it. So that's when if a patient comes in and they have pain or we have some achor pain and you get in front of that light,

and it's a good light source and it's powerful, you'll feel better right away. That's not magic, it's not fixing it, it's not fixing the issue, but it's working on the TRPV1 receptor. If you continue to microdose over time, that receptor changes the ways it behaves, the neural inflammation will come down and the nerve will actually heal. So patients that have chronic neuropathy, painful neuropathy, just this therapy can heal it. And that's that mechanism. The last one is stem cell activation.

That's what we just talked about. Okay. And that's systemic. So if you have a broad area, it's going to hit the bone, it's going to hit the fat and it's going to stimulate those stem cells. So that's kind of, I call it the holy Trinity of, uh, you know, light therapy or red light and your infrared light therapy, that you're hitting all these different things. And so that's when you see, you know, the list of things that you can treat. It's like, this is snake oil, right? It was like, this is total bullshit. How's it going to do all this stuff? But it's going back to these mechanistic,

you know, very basic mechanisms of the cell and how it's, and then it responds to all these different, you know, problems that we have. And so that's why I'm so passionate about this medicine is like this PRP was, you know, one of the PRP led me to this realization. I'm like, oh my God, I changed my whole career. I started a regenerative medicine clinic.

I completely went away from just diagnostic musculoskeletal radiology, which was a good career, but this was the passion that we can actually fix things. And I haven't been this excited about something since that time. I feel like this is such a safe sort of therapy. I mean, it's, you know, ultra safe. It's really easy to use, but it has to be used properly. Like the right power. And then the other thing I really think is it has to be

in a place where you're going to use it a lot. Where you're going to get an exposure once to twice a day or at least three to four times a week. So like a gym setting, you're going to the gym all the time and it doesn't take a long time. You can get seven to 10 minutes of treatment, get under that light and get to be close. You're gonna have a really nice response, ideally home.

And you can even do it in the morning and the evening and your body responds differently. Ryan, see if you can bring up, there's a video of Thomas DeLauer a couple days ago was running on his treadmill and he's got a red light right next to it and he was kind of joking around basically saying he's going to his primal roots. I think it's on Instagram.

That's on Instagram. Yeah, one of the things that I saw, I'm a, sadly, I'm a Bengals fan and they had a video of a therapist that was leveraging massage and red light, but the red light was on the ceiling and the probably too far away to the only pay the baby, the back of the massage therapist had was getting some benefit from it, but the patient was so far away. So part of it is dosing. So I've seen some of the videos and things. One of the things that we really emphasize

is you need to be within a foot of the device. And it has to be, even though it's passive, you need to be close up. You need to get that exposure. And it's not like you won't get any benefits if it's a little further away. It just might be different because it might be your eyes and so on might be getting some,

right? But yeah, you want to be, you want to be pretty close to it. He's fairly close to it there, but you're probably right. He's probably maybe two, two feet, three feet away. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, and we're still learning. I have been wrong many times in my life, so I'll take back some of this stuff. But at least from what I've learned about the science

is that to really get a positive effect on the musculoskeletal system, it does take that close exposure. It makes sense. I mean, the sun is a very powerful thing, and we're lucky that it's exactly the right distance away, otherwise it would just completely melt us. But the, you know, the impact of red light to me makes a lot of sense because we're just

spending way too much time inside. You know, I actively, and we live here in California. I actively make a note till I go outside multiple times a day. First of all, I like going outside, but secondly, I just sometimes I'm just sitting there not doing much and I'm like, I didn't get my ass outside. And even with that consciousness, I mean, look, you're going to sleep eight hours,

and there's going to be almost a minimum of like 50% of your day is probably going to be spent inside even if you are conscious of being outside quite a bit. Yeah. And if you live in, we live in Portland, Oregon, it's not as sunny as here. There's no UV. Can we go to one of the slides? I want to show you this, this sleep.

One of the things that's really cool about having it at home is using it twice a day. And I feel like there's a, there's some studies that are coming out showing, go the other way. That's what I need to start doing. So this one. So I did, I used the Oura Ring and was tracking. And one of the first things I noticed when I was using Red Light years ago

is that my sleep just felt so much better. Like even that night, like that exposure. I had a really bad night of sleep and you can see on the left, that's the oar ring tracking. So those numbers was a 55 out of 100. My heart rate was 59 on average, and then my HRV was 35. I did the next night, that next study is the next day,

it has the dates on there. I did 15 minutes of exposure, whole body exposure, before bedtime. And then you can see I had an 88 sleep score. My REM and deep sleep tripled. My heart rate was 45 resting. And then my HRV went to 109, max of 165. That's like elite athlete level.

It was pretty amazing. That's just one evening of exposure. So that's something that if anybody's out there and... And just making sure nothing changed from the day to day. Like you didn't eat a little bit later the day before. There are potential variables, but pretty similar. Okay. Like a work day.

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think there was any big change in like workout or a big stressor, but just you know, you wake up, you have a bad night of sleep. Okay, let me see if this makes a difference. This is also reproducible. So that's the other thing is if you have a Fitbit or Apple Watch or any of the viewers,

if they have access to this, try it. And one of the things was interesting and there was a, somebody sent me a study today, a recent study on red light and dramatically decreasing risk of blood clots. And they did a mouse study at UPMC, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, a super high level medical center. And they were looking at it. One of the interesting things in the article, I haven't read the actual article. This was a, um, like a review. It was an integrative medicine site. And they said that the blind mice did not benefit. Isn't that crazy?

So they said that there's some optic pathway that's affecting a systemic change, which is really interesting because there's a lot of discussion of, is it, because the red light, all the literature out there, red and urine-fraud is very safe for the eyes. And so there's a lot of, you know, even, you have kind of, it's a bit of CYA where the

goggles don't look directly at it. And it can be pretty intense. You don't want to just stare directly at the LED or the red light. Yeah, so common sense, when you get done, if you are staring directly at it, which I've done a bunch of times and when you get- I if you are staring directly at it, which I've done a bunch of times, and when you get- I do that all the time. Yeah, when you get done with it, you are seeing a lot of different weird shades and colors. And so yeah, maybe if you're too close

and you're doing it too often, with your eyes wide open staring directly at it, maybe that's not the best idea. An odd thing I've noticed though, is that used to happen to me at the beginning, but now that doesn't happen to me anymore. So I don't know if something happens there, but like I look at it and I,

like the first time I did it years ago, I looked in the room and the room was like just a weird, the weird colors. Yeah, it was green. After a few weeks, that's never happened to me since. I still look into it. Do you know anything about that? Well, your body gets your photoreceptors,

the rods and cones and they adapt. And there's lots of studies that are showing, what's super interesting, there's studies that are showing tremendous benefit for children with myopia or other like chronic macular degeneration, chronic eye diseases, and they're benefiting. There are specific devices that are coming out with very calibrated dosing,

and they're like in kind of the fourth stage of research. And so they'll be available to ophthalmologists and docs. Wow. I wonder how much blue light our eyes are seeing all day every day. Can you, I want to show you another one I did. I got, this was kind of close to home. I did my internship or I did an internship down in Memphis,

Tennessee at the cancer hospital. Yeah, I keep going. I think it's close to the end. If anybody's interested in this lecture, right there, go back up. They can go to our website and I have it embedded in there. And I kind of talk about going to all the different articles in the science. But this is the first insurance covered application for red near infrared light therapy.

Look at that device, isn't that crazy? So this is cancer kids, so, you know, St. Jude's Hospital in Memphis. So I worked down there and that's where I found my love of radiology, but they now have realized that red near infrared light for oral mucositis, so this is after they get chemotherapy and radiation,

all of they get horrible ulcers in their mouth. You've had, you know, probably every bit their mouth or they've had some, you know, injury in their tissue, how painful that is. So imagine all of the mucosa inside your mouth like sloughing off after chemotherapy. This is actually now the gold standard of care. So they're putting it's almost like a popsicle. Yeahicle and it shines a light and actually heals the tissue. And now that's the first indication that's covered under insurance for, and I feel like that's going to be like now with the eye disease, myopia, and some other things are starting to show that this

is beneficial. As I did my research into this and joined as the chief medical officer, I went to London to the World Academy of Light Therapy and 153 speakers, because I was a little skeptical. I was like, this is helping me and it feels good, but is it legit? And I went there and that was from, you know, bent scientists working on zebrafish tails, cutting them and shining light and seeing like different growth patterns to, you know, all the scientists from Cambridge, Harvard, Hopkins, South Africa, all over the world. And just learn from dermatology to cancer research to,

you know, musculoskeletal applications that this is absolutely legitimate medicine. It's fascinating. And we're just starting to like fully understand how powerful it can be and how we need it. It's just, it makes so much sense to have it in our lives as kind of a daily wellness routine. It may not be a great idea to do it too late in the evening, probably.

No, it's actually, that's the interesting, there was, I'll send you the article on circadian rhythms that the body responds differently. So in the morning, it can be very activating and energizing, and then the evening, it's not that the light's changing, it's your body's, it has a different receptivity to that. And so certain mitochondria turn on and off at the different times of the day. And so, yeah, that's a really fascinating article.

And so in the evening, you get almost like a parasympathetic, like calming response. And that's where you get the better sleep. So in my personal regimen, everybody has to, we're all bodies respond differently, right? We're all built different. In my regimen, it's like a short burst in the morning, five to seven minutes.

Like I face it, I feel really good. And then the evening, most of the time, I started because it was my low back, wanted to get that strong and healthy. I sit with my back to it and get a nice seven minute dose. And I have, you know, wonderful sleep. And now maybe after reading that article, I'm like, maybe I should get some more like face time

with it. Yeah. And so, you know, the systemic benefits, like I'm vain. Like I was noticing that I had some like dark spots on my head about six, eight months ago. And I started using the red light pretty rigorously. I almost never put it on my head about six, eight months ago. And I started using the red light pretty rigorously. I almost never put it on my face, like maybe two or three times,

hundreds of times I've used it. Really? Yeah. And they went away. And that's the systemic, because it was always like, I'm like, I just need it on my back. And I want to get the systemic response.

I will see what happens with the face. I didn't even think about that. But then I started looking and I'm like, I can't find it anymore. Like that's gone. So you're getting this kind of reparative healing response. We talked about the Ehlers Danlos. So I have a collagen deficiency.

So I don't know if you guys can see, but I can bend my thumb like this. I can bend my wrist like that. My elbow hyperextends. And my joints are loose and my collagen's a little bit too, so good at yoga, bad at football. That's my motto, my hashtag. And the interesting thing is I've been using this

on a really consistent basis. And I'm telling you, my joints and my collagen, my tissue is just getting stronger. There's a big cohort, there's large cohort of patients that have Ehlers-Danlos that are searching for answers. And I just, you know, I've been thinking more and more about this. It'd be really cool to do a study or get with the foundation

because this is such a simple intervention that could help hundreds of thousands of patients that they don't have great solutions. It's really stressful on them. And it's a spectrum of disease. Some people have loose joints and some people have aorta that dissect because the collagen is so weak.

So Mark, you have been loving wearing these Paloovas for a long time. Why is it that you like these shoes that look like this? I'm trying to get my feet to be jacked. I think it's funny how sometimes people will, when I wear these shoes, they're like, oh, those are different. And I'm like, well, maybe you should blame God because this is the human foot. This is the way that it looks. But Paluvas are awesome because it's gonna allow you

to train your feet and train your toes and allow for that toe spread because you got the five finger toe thing going on. It's like a, like put on a glove for your feet. It feels amazing. It's like walking around with toe spacers. You know, we've been working on our feet for a long time now. You always hear the benefit of people talking about

like these tribes who have gone without shoes forever and they have this toe space and have these amazing feet and these shoes will allow you to just passively get that back by walking around. You don't realize what a disadvantage you're at when your foot is all clumped together from the football cleats or soccer cleats or whatever else you were wearing when you were young and so it's nice to be able to splay your toes. In addition to that though one thing I love about Paloova is the fact that it's not to be able to splay your toes. In addition to that though, one thing I love about Paluva is the fact that it's not a regular barefoot shoe.

I do love barefoot shoes as well, but it also has appropriate padding. And when you're stepping on some crazy pebbles and rocks and different things, like when I'm out on a run, some terrain is a little different than others. I don't have to be worried that I'm gonna get some sort of stabbing crazy thing happening to my foot because it has an appropriate amount of cushion

underneath the foot. And guys, Paloova has a lot of different styles on their website. I think one of the newest styles they just came out with, which is a little bit more of a rigorous do is the Strand ATR. It's not these, these are the Strands, but the ATRs have a little bit more.

If you wanna go hiking with them, you totally can. Those are amazing. If you go out, you with them, you totally can. Those are amazing. If you go out, throw those on and go sprint on a field, and your feet feel so strong, grabbing the grass and being able to actually grab the ground with your foot feels amazing. I'm more of a chill guy with my Paloova, so I like the Zen slip-ons, but that's the thing.

With Paloova, there's a lot of different options. So if you head to Paloova.com and use code powerproject, you'll be able to save 15% off your entire purchase. And they also have toe socks. Their five feet of toe socks are no show. So check those out too. Also, some people also have issues with their eyes, because of the tendons.

It starts to loosen up in there too. Yeah. Yeah, it's not a binary, not zero and one, that you have it. But it's a spectrum. And so there's one that you have it, but it's a spectrum. And so there's folks that we see it in the office all the time that they're just suffering. They just keep coming back and they've been, you know, and in the past it's been, you know, it hadn't, we tried to help them holistically, but it's like the injection is okay, well, we're putting out the fires.

Okay, that joint went out now. Let's treat that or that ligamentor. Let's treat this. And so that we're always searching, hey, is there something that we can do for those fires? But hey, let's work and let's start working on the, you know, the whole forest and the system and try to repair that. Is there any efficacy of getting the red light on your butthole? Because I know people were doing like the sun, right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Is there any information or research?

Hey, no shame. I saw it and I was like, you know what? Might as well. I try to get the red light everywhere. I try to get it in my nose and my mouth. Under your balls. I'm sure for like anal fissures and things like that, it makes total sense. What about, I've heard, you know, getting the red light on your stomach might be a little bit more benefit. Like, is there a specific area where you're trying to get it to or does it not matter too much? Just skin exposure.

I mean there was a, there's studies that they did. One of the most elegant studies that, you know, they're talking about Parkinson's and neurodegenerative disorders and they looked at if you put a helmet on with powerful red lights, like how much gets to your brain and it's not much. And so, but people are doing red light therapy for Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. They're seeing amazing clinical benefits. They're like, why is this working?

And so they did different studies of putting light with helmets on the head and then putting it in other areas and then sham, like, you know, fake light. And they noticed that the light's helping, right? And the no light or sham is not. And one of the areas that was helping most profoundly is the abdomen. And so when they're putting on the gut, it changes.

There's so many immune cells and stem cells and there's fat activation. We talked about that systemic response that it's kind of going everywhere. Like my skin is feeling better even from just shining it on my back, right? And so that's the theory that this is activating systemic response.

I don't know if that's where. You also talked about a study where like some people actually lost some body fat around their abdomen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, if we scroll, I don't know if I put it in here, can we scroll down a little bit? And this is where like the snake oil side of things like.

So here, this is it's funny because you're like, oh yeah, you do this and you might lose some, you know, you might lose some fatty around your abdomen. It's like, it sounds ridiculous. Totally. Well, I do believe there's some research too on it assisting with your blood glucose and things like that too. So it's like maybe through that mechanism and maybe through some of these other mechanisms,

it's helping you to, you know, maybe manage your body weight a little easier. This one was very focal specific. So they did a study. I really liked this study. It was, I have a, if you go to regenerative radiologist and I did a, about a 20 minute talk, I love PowerPoints, as you can tell. I like anytime I want to learn something, I make a freaking PowerPoint for myself.

I have thousands of PowerPoints nobody's ever seen. When I was powerlifting, you know, every once in a while I'd run into somebody that was like an Excel, like huge fan, and they would, I might tell them a workout or something, like, hey, I put it into this sheet, and they're like, they had these percentages, and I was like, oh my God.

Yeah, that's like me in PowerPoint. I fricking love PowerPoints. But so we did, I looked at this study and what they did 90 patients, women BMI, I think were like 17 to 30 or something like that. So they definitely had some, you know, adipose around their abdomen. And then the crazy thing is the amount of time, like it's, it's almost insane. Three minutes, twice a week exposure. And then they had 90 women, they broke them up into three groups, a sham group. So they didn't get a real dose. And then they did

a group with similar, almost exact same wavelengths that we have, a little bit less intensity. And then they did a group with the same red near infrared, and they put like a cream, fat burning cream supposedly, the dermatologic cream on their abdomen. And they tested those three. They, the measures, the out, so they did that for five weeks. The measures that they used, the outcomes measures, they took a tape measure, abdominal circumference, and then they did ultrasound. We talked about ultrasound. We can look and that's how we get fat. You can tell, you can tell beautifully, so they measure the thickness and they had a very precise mechanism of measuring the thickness. So I love that part as a radiologist. And then they freaking did a biopsy. Like, I don't know how they like that probably wouldn't happen in the US to get an IRB to approve

that, but they did the biopsy of the tissue. And if you scroll down, so obviously, first of all, it worked. Okay. The patients, the sham group lost no fat. The light only group lost the most. And I'm wondering if that cream blocked the rays. So that one was in the middle. And they showed that the other really cool thing they noticed was that fibroblasts, which are healing cells and collagen production also dramatically increased in the light groups. So Thomas Tlauer is onto something with it next to his treadmill.

Yeah. Oh yeah. And you can see the pink on the top there. Like, do you see the little dark dots? Those are the fibroblasts and the light group had the most fibroblasts and the most collagen production in C. You can see how dense the red is. That's all new collagen.

So that's the staining that we get. And then if you go to the next slide, these are the fat cells from before and after. And you can see in the top is A, that's the fat cells normally. And you can see in the top is A, that's the fat cells normally. And you can see they're kind of plump, right? And then in the middle there's fat. And then below those are all broken.

They're lysed and all of the oils and the lipids from there have been taken out. So they're talking about kind of the mechanism. This article is really cool about why that's working. And so these channels are also opening and the lipids are draining from the fat and then those fat cells are dying. Wow.

And so this is actually, there was like, and that's really cool. And then there's also a lot of new stem cells, all those little dark dots on the bottom. Those are new fibroblasts, new stem cells there in the area. Wow. And there's other, there's really cool. I didn't bring some of the other research,

but for, especially with what you guys do and how active you are, of how powerful it can be for recovery. And you can use it for pre-condition, the term pre-conditioning with red light. So before you work out, there's some really nice studies, like you can do a 10 minute dose of red light before you and your VO2 max, your time of maximum exercise, all of these things can like dramatically increase. You know, it's really cool. Like I'll do red light in the morning. Every time after maximum exercise, all of these things can dramatically increase. You know what's really cool? I'll do red light in the morning. Every time after red light I have a pump. And this is an exaggeration. I'll stand in front of the mirror,

I'll go in front of the mirror and I literally have a pump. I'm more full. And I've always found that to be such a surprising thing. But it just is what it is. I don't know, does that happen to you too? It feels great. I mean, I use it, I have a red light in my bathroom because I think that's a convenient way to get it. It's a couple of minutes and I'm in there a couple of times a day.

And then I have one near my treadmill. I have one near my TV, which I sent you a picture of. Like I just try to get it basically whenever I can. And a lot of times when I come home from here, before I go in the shower, I'll stand in front of the red light for maybe 15 minutes or so. And yeah, I've noticed the same thing. Veins are popping a little bit more. And I don't know exactly all the things involved in what it's doing, but you know,

supposedly it's supposed to help with like nitric oxide and stuff like that. And so maybe just by getting some of that, maybe you're getting a little bit more of a pump. Yeah. And we talked about, that's what's getting dissociated, right? That's sitting on the, that's cytochrome C oxidase

and that gets dissociated into the cell, into the bloodstream, you're going to get a pump. So all of these mechanisms, it's pretty well delineated, but it's amazing how broad of an effect that it can have. I'd also say too, for my super pale white friends out there, it's a great pre-conditioning for your skin. A lot of folks, they only go outside or they only get like a lot of sun, they get excited and they go to the beach and then they get burnt really bad.

I'm not saying you're not gonna get burnt if you use red light, but the red light is a nice preparatory way for you to get used to getting a solar callus, which I think is important for people to get. I think it's important for people to get outside and to whatever their skin tone is. I think certain times a year,

it's good to work on darkening your skin tone in whatever way that you can, because some people are more pale than others, right? Try to be like us. Exactly. Yeah, try to be like Insima. And our guests. Yeah, but I do think that the red light

is something that can sort of prep your skin because sometimes some people, they're so pale that they go outside and their skin gets really compromised and they get blotchy skin and they get all these different things. I think that if you use the red light religiously that you won't run into those same problems and it could potentially help with like acne and all of the kinds of things. Yeah, we have like a lot of just stories. I have five kids, you know, they- Five kids, congratulations, that's a world record.

That's a, it's a lot, they're amazing though. But they've leveraged it, a lot of them use it. There are a bunch of athletes in that group. And so they've had injuries and they've used it by one daughter, you know, hormonal acne. It's really benefited her. My wife has used it for like her knees and for like skin. She's a dermatologist and has seen benefits.

One daughter does martial arts, right? Yeah. Well, they three or four, actually they all, they all did. Oh, cool. And so I have four girls and then the baby is a boy and they all did wushu and then pretty high level. The eldest, you know, I think she got her black belt and then she competed in China. She did the three sectional. That's cool.

And so she was, I just gave her the rope to work with and started doing rope flow. Yeah. So it's been really cool. And but we, yeah, we all, you know, get little injuries and it sits in our living room. It's on a lot. And then speaking of burns, my mom, when we first got the device and the machine

and, you know, working with our team, I had one, she, something dropped from the microwave into boiling oil and she gets splashed up on her face. And she had these horrible boils, those like second degree burns and got a cream from my wife and told mom, I was like, sit in front of this at least twice a day. They live really close to us.

And she used it a week later, it was almost perfect. Wow. And I took pictures and I sent it to my wife, like, is this normal? She's like, no, that's like super fast to heal. So it's been pretty amazing. And yeah, so I just, you know, we have, I think some amazing technology and part of our, part of the company's kind of motto and mission is really to educate it.

Just like we talked about with regenerative medicine and cells is educate the right way of delivering this and get it out there because I think there are some devices that are just a little bit underpowered. Some of the wraps and some of the other things that we looked into that may not provide the benefits that we want, right? They may help maybe with some skin things but if we're looking for like a deep activation

of the stem cells or getting ligaments and tendons and pain relief, like we have to understand that. So our mission is to educate, uh, like trusted resources. So like you guys were in medical clinics, working with physical therapists and, you know, chiropractors and anybody that the, the clients and like patients trust is to get out there and like educate. Like, why is this actually like, is it a sham? Cause it's easy when it's like, it can treat everything from, you know,

buttholes to hair loss. Then wound healing and tendons. You know, it's going to, it's snake oil. And so the big society meeting, like one of their, they had a two section, like had all of their expert thought leaders on stage talking about it. It's like, how do we get past that? Like, this is legitimate, we know it,

but how do you get past that kind of that vernacular that this is all just a bunch of hocus pocus? And, you know, we're talking about it mainly for a lot of people that are healthy, you know, and that's where we're seeing the red light being really well received is in the fitness community where people are trying to hack and biohack, but I can't even imagine, I mean, for somebody that is, somebody that's sick,

someone that's unhealthy, probably have a way more profound impact on them, even more so than the person that goes out for a jog a couple of times a week outside. Yeah. Well, I think one of the most compelling, Matt's with me, you know, here, he's one of the co-owners of the business.

And, you know, one of the things that really drew me to work with them was kind of his passion on it. And he had leveraged it for, you know, patient in hospice. And that was like that story that he was able to bring them light when they were dying and then provide some relief of pain and some comfort was really powerful. And he'd help some other people that

were kind of at the end of their life and they were able to get pain relief. I think probably a lot of other mental benefits from receiving that. So that's another area that's really compelling to see what it can do. In Europe, that conference was in London, they have a, you know, it's a one payer system there. So they have a full society that's now dedicated to using red light near infrared light for cancer patients that have been cured for cancer. It's not used for the cancer, but they are left with horrible issues after being cured from cancer. So they have fibrosis, they have neuropathies, they have all these, they're don't have, they're cancer

free, but the chemo and the radiation and all the treatments and the surgeries and everything that has left them with a really horrible quality of life. And exposure to this light repeatedly has been amazing. There was some really, I was trying to, there was four rooms going on at the same time, so I didn't get a deep dive into that one, but I caught some of it and it's pretty compelling

about how they're using that and then it's become a part of the system. So that's where you see it's, yeah, we get all like, okay, this is like the optimization and burning fat and we want a six pack with the red light, but how is it leveraging other areas is really powerful too, I agree. I'm impressed with your transformation

that you told me about. I think you said that at one point you were like 30% body fat. Yeah, a year ago. And then where are you now? A year ago. Like 15, 16, like what's your- Yeah, I got down to like, I think in the high 14s now.

Yeah, so you cut it in half. That's impressive. And you're looking jacked, man. Like, you're looking jacked. Yeah, pretty damn jacked radiologist over here. Not you guys, but now it's been, you know, like I told you, I think it's been very synergistic, you know, focused, like I told you, I think it's been very synergistic, you know, focused on, on my health had, uh, I've been using the red light.

Um, my wife is vegan, um, gone vegan. So that's been a, uh, I'm not fully like a really good vegan dinner. Um, but that's something that, that maybe is, is helping that as well. But, um, I just, yeah, I kind of found the passion and if I don't work out, I kind of, I feel it. It's not a good position to be in, but I think it's synergistic. I wish there was like one silver bullet,

but I do think that the red light has played a key role. You know, we're lucky we have a pretty cool energy-based medicine practice. So we leverage PEMF. We have PEMF? Yeah. Pulse electromagnetic frequency. Okay.

So you've heard like the pulse, the beds. Okay. Yeah. Can you explain that a little bit? The grounding mats and so forth. Yeah. And so basically using electromagnetism to stimulate healing. Okay.

And so they're different. The one that we have is a pulse bed. So that helps kind of reset your cellular mechanisms. It's very synonymous. Is there like a brand or something? Yeah, Pulse is the brand. Pulse is the brand. I can show you that.

It's super cool. Wow. They use it for a lot of equine. So I've been blessed to have a really close friend that's a veterinarian that has his practices like mine, but for horses. You know what? I knew it.

I've always had this, when we were power lifting, if it didn't have like an animal on the front of it, we didn't think it was very good. You didn't inject it? Yeah. Exactly. If it had a horse on there, or like a bull, a bull. Yeah.

Crazy, don't you think? Actually, usually it wasn't necessarily the injectables, although that would be funny if there was a giant horse on there. It was more like creams, almost like Bengay type stuff. It was just like rubs, yeah, yeah. And it was like- Wait, what was it for though? It was for injuries.

It was for injuries, yeah. Just stuff that you'd rub on your elbows or your knees. But because it was made to penetrate on a horse, we were like, this has got to be great for us. You're wild, man. Yeah, so this is the, oh, our new light. I'll bring some in for you. Let's check it out.

Don't use it in Jiu Jitsu. We have the one that's a little bit, if you scroll down a little bit. Yeah, we have this. Oh, it has like a seat, like a chair or something, too. There's a bed and a chair and these pads and they're intense. Like you feel the, because it's pulsing. Yeah. So you feel the change in the magnetic field.

Man, I love this stuff. Yeah, it's super cool. And then the other one that was really helpful was we have M Sculpt. Ah, the thing where they, it's like, ah, we had a guy, Judson Brandis came in and did it to us. Did he have the full? Yeah, he had the full unit. That thing is incredible.

I can tell, like, my transversalis and like those deep muscles, like that was one of the first things. It took about a month, like I did a couple of sessions, and then I just noticed that I didn't, it didn't like give me, not even close to like suddenly like changing anything. But what I did notice was my core was just more solid.

Like I had kind of, I just had this gut and I had to really work at like, you know, keeping good posture. I had used that in like three weeks later. The first thing I noticed was like, I'm not having to suck in. Did you feel like more activation of those, of that area? Yeah.

Like when he put it on us, cause there's a video, it's like everything's tensing up. You know, it's rough, but interesting. Okay. Yeah. And then over time, then they have this RF that's supposed to, you know, to, to burn as well. And so I think that's, again, it can be synergistic. It's one of those things that's at the clinic. And if I had it at home, I'd probably use it a lot more. But like when

you're done with work, I just want to go home. And that's the problem. Even with the red light at the clinic, I don't very rarely, I may have done it in clinic like a couple of times, but when it's at home, I use it all the time. Have you found anything to be synergistic with the red light? Yeah. In terms like supplements or okay. Yeah, I think the, you know, there's a lot of discussion and I'm not an expert on that. I'm interested in it and I've done, you know, a little bit of reading, but like you like Methylene Blue, right? Like as a synergistic agonist.

And so that's something that's really interesting. The things that we have in the clinic that I think are probably most compelling would be the, you know, somebody's really wanting to target, they want to burn abdominal fat is to do the red light and then do the M-Sculpt. And the M-Sculpt has, there's one called the M-Sculpt Neo that has like a radio frequency heat. So it does the muscle activation, which is the stimulation which you feel like the contractions.

And then it has radio frequency heat that causes the burning of the fat, which is what we're seeing with like the red lights. I think it's potentially really synergistic. Oh, one thing that we talked about with red light, we were talking about that before, don't do what we learned, I learned at the conferences, don't do what we learned, I learned at the conferences,

don't do it in conjunction or synchronously with a sauna. So like not like- At the same time. Not at the same time. So there are, and I have one. And so I have a sauna that has a red light panel in it, and it's not gonna hurt you, but all those effects that the Holy Trinity of the red light,

all of those are going to be dramatically dampened when you're heated. Oh, okay. Yeah. So anything that passed like that. Yeah. We had a guest on the show, David Herrera. He feels like a really great amplifier of red light therapy is cold. That's what he felt.

And he talks about like going outside and just getting some sunlight even when it's cold out, but even more so like doing, you know, cold plunge or cold shower. He actually talked about it in more ways than one, but like one of the ways was that because you have a chill, because you have a goosebumps, you got a little bit more surface area to kind of collect some of the red light. So super, super interesting when you like start to dive into the weeds on some of these things. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I love all, I love cold plunge.

I love sauna and the red light, but the recommendation at least for the heating of the tissue was asynchronously. So just don't do it. You can do them, do them, but do the day, but not at the same time. So let your body cool down a little bit and then do the, or do the red light initially, get those PBM photobiomodulation benefits

and then do like the sauna, get the heat shock proteins, all of the, you know, the increased vascularity. I mean, saunas, you've seen all the finished studies, I mean, incredible for cardiovascular health. So definitely want that, but just not at the same time. So that's my other two cents, because I have that unit. The sauna just feels nice. Yeah.

You're like a sauna or hot tub, cold plunge, you're like, oh man. I know, it's so good though. You did the cold plunge, the trainer told me to do it before working out. And I noticed such a huge difference, like my joints. Yeah. Like there's the gym that I was going to at that time.

They had a really nice, there was a life, they put a new lifetime fitness in Portland. They had a, so I was getting there at like four in the morning and the first thing I was doing was jumping into the, like this was the beginning of my fitness journey and like jumping into that cold plunge. And I remember he's like, you got to go in first thing in the morning. It's like, it's four in the morning. I just got out of bed. The last thing I went in, he's like, in the statement he told me, really got me going.

He's like, stand in front of that thing and say, I do hard things. Hypnotize yourself. Yeah, I do hard things, cause this is hard. And I get in there and then I noticed that when I ran, it was three stories up to the workout level, no knee pain. No, like it didn't feel tight or achy

because all of that heat had come into the joints. It was such a cool like process to do that before working out. It's neat. Sometimes good, sometimes it's just tell yourself the opposite. We had a legendary fighter on the show the other day, Boss Rutten, and they told him that he was going to fight a guy that's like 30 pounds heavier than him. And he's like, yeah, how come we haven't weighed in? It's like, oh, cause there's no weight classes.

And he was just like, all right, cool. He just smiled. Meanwhile, he was like, holy shit. But yeah, I think if you can kind of trick yourself into some of these things sometimes. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time today. Let's plug your red light device

so people can check it out and see where they can get it. So redvivehealth.org is the site. plug your red light device so people can check it out and see where they can get it. So redvivehealth.org is the site. So you can go there and there's some educational pieces. You can order that. And then, like I said, part of our kind of philosophy is really business to business. So we're getting into gyms and the medical clinics, people that are trusted, that we want to really educate them. And there's kind of a built-in system of education and kind of a sales and support network around them.

And we're working on, these are our current devices. We are actually working on one that's, hopefully I can say that, but it's just gonna be an American-made developed engineered panel. So we're super excited about that. Mostly the more overseas. Yeah.

Yeah. And so we're really excited about it. And go on there, and we're going to put more and more content up. And we actually created a Red Vibe University. So all of the literature that we're, and you guys are, I'd love to share that with you. We have all of the literature that we've, and you guys are, I'd love to share that with you. We have all of the literature that, you know,

that we've shown here and hundreds of other studies. Very cool. We've organized them into two different folders. So if you're looking, if you have some question of, Hey, what about, you know, neuropathy or wound healing or skin or we've separated all those things or tendon issues or stem cells, or even just the basics. Like we have kind of a primer of like,

hey, how does red light work? And what are the best articles for that? So we really want to build a kind of robust educational platform. Cool. And this unit right here that we have here with the stand, this is a pretty big unit, but that thing is like what, 1200, 1500 bucks?

I think it's retail is 2000. And then the smaller one is 600. and then it comes with the stand, the larger one. And then we have some other, other stands that are more kind of commercial grade. Like this one's awesome for like home. And then if somebody has it in the clinic, we just wanted something that's a little bit more robust. Gotcha.

Thank you so much for your time. They really appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time. They really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me and that was really fun. Strength is never weakness, weakness never strength. Catch you guys later. Bye.