Matt and Shane's Secret Podcast - Ep 538 - LSD Supermax (feat. Joel Blaeser)

Episode Date: December 23, 2024

Support the D.A.W.G.Z. @ patreon.com/MSsecretpod Support Joel @ https://lettersfrommarion.com/ Go See Matt Live @ mattmccusker.com/dates Go See Shane Live @ shanemgillis.com yo0o0o. Matt's joined by the OG Joel Blaeser this week. Hot cast. Sit back, relax, and have a Merry Xmas everyone. ttyl. Please Enjoy. God Bless. 

And we're live Joel blazer. What the fuck is going on? Thank you. Thank you for coming. Doesn't it feel good? Yes, feels good dude every now and again just to jump in hot Get the juices flowing so Joel blaze I I was so we met in Milwaukee I saw you on soft white underbelly and I was taken by I was like dude. This is this is crazy I think honestly, I think you're one of their best guests that you know, they've done some thank you They've done a lot. They've interviewed a lot of people but you know I just kind of struck me where I saw you I said damn this guy is the man and we talked and then eventually we met in Milwaukee I didn't it was pure accident I because

you I had this fucked up post on Instagram my phones off it's like you're talking right to me you didn't even see me and I'm like man I got it and I grab my phone during and I'm like okay no, I got to... And I grab my phone and I'm like, okay, no, they're going to kick me out. You can't turn the phone on. Because I wanted to erase it. It was just some fucking negative bullshit. Like, because at the show, you can't turn your phone on.

Right, right, right, right. So then I go out and then you... And I wouldn't even have turned my phone on had I not had that thought, which is that you inspired me from the thing. And then you're like, dude, I saw you come back to the green room Could miss you that was fucking rad my

My friend I think Nate you met Nate. Yes, Nate comes. No, I think it was AJ AJ comes back and He's like, yeah, there's a guy like it all white front row and I was like, I know that Dude hell yeah. So yeah, we talked a little bit. And then we met, dude, you're the fucking man. We met in Milwaukee. You gave the signed copies to Nate and AJ of your book. Gave him a little note.

Letters from Marion. The notes were, I thought, beautiful, man. I gave them their books, and we were reading them. I'm like, they're just beautiful notes. You're the man, dude. You a I gave him their books and we were reading them like they're there's beautiful notes You're the man dude. You're an absolute beast, but we went to the steak house Lock steak. Yes might have been the best steak. I've ever had in my life, dude I'm not lying like good It was so good and then I the thing that really killed me was I've never seen this happen before when you showed up

You had had an incident with gas. Oh my god, dude. That was dude You smell like gasoline you showed up. I thought we're all sitting there eating I'm like I thought you're working with power tools all day. I'm like maybe he was like I don't want to be rude of it with the fuck. Yes, the motherfucker clicked I'm sitting in the car the things full it clicked that pull it out Dude, and it just was squirting and it just squirted on the car the things full it clicked that pull it out dude And it just was squirting and it just squirted on the car and splashed Yeah, you got drenched with gasoline like that is wicked, bro. You guys swear to God. I've never it was such a pungent

I'm like, what am I gonna do? You had it to show up You could have lit me on fire if you were smoking cigarettes. I seriously was concerned. I was worried someone's going to order like off-lambe or something and you would have went up because it was a thick gasoline smell. Although that's kind of the most manly cologne. Maybe we could start it. Letters for marrying gasoline brand.

Yeah, so OK, so you're and this is what kind of got my interest I watched you on soft white underbelly and you had the story basically about going to a supermax prison For selling you know LSD and the case was crazy like you know we talked about it. It was just You sent you know LSD in the mail Western Union some guy got caught he never got even caught with it, right? No, his friend got caught okay,, and then his friend just told him they showed up at his front door and he just like told him this crazy story. Right. So they didn't wasn't indicted. He would just they didn't he just completely ran on his front step. Jesus Christ. And then he gave you up and then you got on some bullshit trial where it was like you never got caught with drugs. But there was enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that you had used a fake name to Western Union money and LSD around and they sentence you to you said they were 151 months, 12 years, seven months, which I jumped for joy.

That was short. Yeah. When I was facing 40 and I get 151, I looked at my mom and I just went like this. Like really you turn around yes, cuz I'm like it's 151 like I'm really say, you know 40 when you're 23 You're gonna whole life you're done. You're like, how do you look down that hallway? 151 it's like okay, I can file some appeals. Maybe I'll get lucky and I did But that was 1992. So that's this is like too. It's crazy to think about the drug laws back There's even like weed back then you go to jail for like four or five years for selling weed. If you had enough when we drove through Texas or with Vegas, Nevada, like the the older dead heads like this shit was hid.

You couldn't do anything ponytails back like you just had to get through the state, especially Texas. They said if we get pulled over and they find weed, we are all going to prison. Yeah, it's crazy. And now look look yeah, and so we paved the way I should put a collection bucket out That's a young people have no fucking clue man Yeah, even even the early 2000s it was like you could go to jail for like like little bullshit like weed and stuff I guess they softened obviously softened. There's still some there's 25 states where it's illegal, right?

Yeah, Texas is Texas. It's still illegal Like if you Austin you're fine if you have weed in Austin They don't care if you leave Austin you can still they'll like throw you in the Hotel everybody they don't care in Austin, but if you is that isn't that right Josh I think if you leave Austin and you get caught with weed like I knew someone who was decriminalized in Austin proper Yeah, pretty much. I mean they at least they don't they don't prosecute it at all It's not it's the live side. It's a live. This is a live haven. Yeah, they actually have like decent food here But you know deal with all that stuff, but but yeah, man, you can in Austin

I think I knew someone who got pulled over with a vape cartridge and got like held overnight in Austin no outside Oh, so Austin's a safe haven so they get where They sell it here. Yeah, it's like now. We have that weird stuff where it's like the ham It's one little the hemp bill the hemp bill yeah Exactly if you get it from hemp you can it's like yeah, or the big things THC a is THC is what's illegal THC You know you have to you know like heat up we have brownies come back come back Yeah, deep oxalate or whatever yeah So now if you have you have that extra carbon molecule that heat removes from literally of a lighter

It's technically legal because you can be like well. This is hemp It's yeah, it's weeds legal now by the way, but is it medically legal here. No No, Texas is like I think it's yeah, I don't think they even have a medical program. I think all drugs should be legal and the world would be way different. That's really one of the driving forces behind the book. Just to be part of that wave. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, dude, it's like, it hasn't worked. The, I mean, look at the prisons. Well, what happened with Portugal? Didn't Portugal? Yeah. I mean, obviously locking people up for, they did. It was much smaller. The Cato Institute did a big study. I wrote a couple op-eds for that

I don't remember all the statistics, but they they would track it all the way to like when kids first tried drugs like it just had a positive impact on all the metrics of Drug use amount of drug use when they stop and then when you go in to do it They say if you get addicted or you want help here it is but there's a lot of moms whose young daughters and sons of OD'd and died that if it was legal if they were at one of those places they wouldn't have died yeah and and you take the the Mexican cartel would go out of business like that think of that so that's the big one

yeah well that that's the but here's thing. I was I read the book chasing the scream by yeah Yes, they talk about that like in in London They would give people heroin and then if you had someone if they had to go to a center and the heroin was clean Like there were way more way less deaths, but now the critique in America is like the well It's a cesspool America did it wrong like Oregon and Seattle It's just like a whole area of exactly it does give the harm reduction stuff a bad name Because it's like if you just let people lay on the street and you're like, oh, here's fucking here's needles and then my my friend Jared Klickstein was actually living in skid Row for a while and he said the problem was you like

Throw these guys in like a apartment like oh here We're gonna give you housing and then they OD and die and Nobody finds them because they're by themselves rather if they're outside But if we discover them if both metrics were the same Legal and illegal the use there's still the metric of the criminal elements out of it We get the money that we can bring back in yeah, that's true, and it's also it loses a lot of the allure It's like you know if you're telling me yes I gotta go to like in a professional office building to like go do heroin

I'm gonna be like you're gonna start to question it. You're gonna think am I doing? Where's my life going? Yeah, what is it? What am I fucking my doing? It's not the thrill of like, you know, you're getting it It takes the rock and roll element out of it. I think good work and it always is a personal choice It is like, you know, it comes down to personal choice What I do with my head is my business Can a government really tell me yeah, well apparently they told you they sent you to jail for fucking So dude so that you have a book it's called letters from Marion I read it I love the book dude

I thought it was great book was fantastic it kind of give me that shout out about the jackrag on another podcast Yes, I did I did I did actually I Parted it too Dude, that's I'm glad it's kind of cross a weird threshold though for other prisoners to be like yo Here's how you jerk off cuz I know in jail. It's like Nicky at the third place Yeah, Nicky told me he started to tell me and I thought he was fucking with me. Yeah And I'm like, but he's not gay spark. He already got me stoned with all this weed.

And then I'm like, all right, I'm going to try it. But I did. And it was wicked. It was. What was the technique again? You roll the socks inside out so it's smooth. And then you're not actually like going up and down on the shaft. And it's hard. It's hard when you get a really big hard on. But you grab the shaft and then's hard. It's hard when you get a really big hard on but you grab the shaft and then that heat and then right at climax boom right on top and underneath.

Put some pressure on it. It has an effect man. That's crazy. You mean like most guys know that I've never tried this sock in the fucking pressure plate. So you turn it inside out and then you fold it over so it's a I've never tried this sock in the fucking pressure plate at the end. So you turn it inside out and then you fold it over so it's a little tight, right? And you got to get a big sock. But no, it works. And then it's all contained.

No, no spill, no truss, no must. You don't have to buy a cab where I'd home in the morning. You got to wash the sock. Yeah. You got to wash the sock. Throw that fucker out. Throw it out after like six or eight uses. What? Oh, she's still washing. Suck throw that fucker out throw it out after like six or eight uses what?

Still washing or I'll rinse it, but not I want to put it in the machine That's really you know yeah, yeah here. I get that true You don't want the all those chemicals on you the funny so you were telling me this made me laugh a lot So you get you go to trial you took your case to trial you fight it yourself Which you know that is honorable you go take your case to trial and then you were sentenced like you said what was the first thing you did upon sensing you back to the cell what was your play so it was a that was your 23 years old sober experience sobering experience I went to that cell and I just started to think what do I want to do what am going to do when I get out surfing sushi? And then I'm like, somehow I got aroused right on, you know, and the marshals were out of the office there. There's bars and I just fucking hit it. I made myself come hard, dude. And

then I'm like, get used to it motherfucker, because that's all you got. And I think that's actually pretty good, like to realization and just accepting. Yeah, yes is what it is, dude I mean and then who knows maybe if I spent the hundred and fifty one months in there I mean, I might have been getting my dick sucked. I don't fucking know. I don't think so, but After a certain amount of time like say if you're there for 30 fucking years, man I hear you gotta be touched like what the fuck something's gotta happen Yeah, or a guard you get lucky with the damn male prison guard. That'd be huge. That'd be very lucky

So I don't know I've never had a deal with that But you never had it that was that was your primary concern you said going in you didn't want to have to Get raped get my asshole filled with cum. Can I say that you can can say that yeah, it's your journey. No, man I do that's a real fucking fear. I'd be terrified man because you were down wearing like, Kentucky Yes, I that trial was in Covington, Kentucky 6th district the first prison was like really low and normal, but you know as it progressed and the thing is the face of the Medium security prisons at that time changed The normal medium security in the 80s. You might have bank robbers couple drug dealers

The average sentence is maybe eight six eight ten years But now there was every other fucking guy had 30 35 years and they're young so it was like that was like a penitentiary in a medium because like You know if a dude's got 35 or 40 years And he's 25 and he's disrespected like what the fuck does he have to lose exactly? It's not like you have eight or ten and you got an out date and you're close right so like the tensions were different And also I did like that I have to say like so you're there. You know that just being like look I've never tried sushi. I'm gonna get that when I get out

I'm gonna surf around the world when I get out and then Just like you know and it is funny to like just jerk off but the it is something there's something serious about that level of acceptance to be like This is my situation because I feel like people in and out of jail struggle with that of like just accepting your lot in life And just kind of like getting getting with the program rather than just constantly spinning yourself out acceptance It's a big thing. It was luck I don't know how I like I look back what the fuck Why you were wise you were definitely at 20 for 22 to be like alright. This is what it is is pretty crazy

I don't I wouldn't be able to take it. I would have been like this is bullshit There's no way I would have been in total denial. I think When they arrested me I thought to myself as they're driving me in the denial, I think. When they arrested me, I thought to myself, as they're driving me in the car, like I had the thought, I'm like, I know a motherfucker who's got a kilo of coke. I'm thinking in my head, and I'm like, no, and they brought me to the courthouse in this room

with Christopher Bick and a couple other agents, and they said, you're gonna spend the rest, of your, you're going to spend all of your fucking twenties and probably most of your thirties in prison. This is the best part of your life. And they said, just, we, you don't even, we won't even process you. Just tell us you'll cooperate and help us. And you can stop right now. And I said, take me to myself.

Fuck you. Which was the hardest fucking thing. Because I knew I'm not going to jail then. They threw the 18 count indictment on my lap when they arrested me, which I thought, holy fuck, that means they convened a grand jury. They've been fucking following me, trying to catch me with shit, which they were. So yeah, man, that was a wicked situation.

Then I got out on bail for like four months and then went out on bail, I got in trouble. So they arrested me, I don't know if I put this in the book and then I had to go back to Kentucky through the federal prison system. And then once I got to Kentucky, there was a mix up with getting the car and then I got out again.

Talk about this. Yeah, I went through six or seven prisons because the way the Marshall services like transfers you through and then I went to this one in Oklahoma and now they built a different one. But you actually went into a prison with like six tears. And so I'm only have been arrested. I informally charged, but I have not been convicted or sentenced So I saw in that point I saw what prison was Like really what prison was you got to get your shuffle? So I wrote that in the book you were you had to get yourself down in Kentucky to get like a rain or whatever

Yeah, cuz I they arrested me in Milwaukee, but the indictment is out of Kentucky. So they rain me here They gave me pretrial probation. They said you got to show up in three weeks I mean Dougie and you couldn't get to Kentucky, right? Two days before I called the Marshals. They said you got to get there You got to get there We're gonna come arrest you and then there was an issue with my getting a rental car and then my brother wasn't gonna Let me use this car and I mean I fucked up Yeah, so they were pissed so they had to literally transport you from Milwaukee down, but they don't go straight

I just get in the system and you just You go around and then it took me like 31 days couple County jails, but the it was the one in Oklahoma Oklahoma City I Can't remember the name of the federal prison But like you would go to the chow hall and you'd mix with the prisoners like the wick, you know, and it's just like, I remember Jean Gotti was there, I believe at the time, but it was like, holy fuck, man. Then I get to Kentucky. They give me he gives me the bail. He's like, you can't fuck up. We're gonna piss you all that. He's like, but I'll see you. I don't know the trial wasn't four or five months after that But yeah that No, I went back to Milwaukee. Okay, if that that could have made anybody rat

Yeah, cuz you see like this is the gonna be home. Oh you weren't you I see what you're saying you weren't even like a fully Sentenced yet and the thing that struck I didn't know I didn't even have the trial exactly So you got like a taste and you could have totally been like bro fuck this I'm out I did like the thing in the book where you talked about how they gave some people what was called diesel therapy and Yeah, keep prisoners traveling just in perpetuity that like diesel therapy dude That's fucking terrible because you don't you maybe shower every two days You're constantly in chains belly chains and the leg irons and then like if you file complaints

in chains, belly chains and the leg irons. And then like if you file complaints, and I'm sure they do it to people that they wanna break, like maybe Secret Service people they think are selling secrets or whatever, like some sort of thing. And then it's also a threat. Like you know, like if you go on diesel therapy, you're basically on a bus like seven days a week and stopping off only every couple days. and like in the big tanks with people

You're eating bologna sandwiches, but yeah, you don't know anyone so you're just getting shuffled or your no phone calls no mail Sucks, dude. I never even I never heard of that before you always hear about the hole That's the big one he gets into the hole, but the holes the jail within the jail like it's crazy, right? Yeah, the hole was pretty wicked. The thing is like on the commissary slips, they sold every single federal prison. They sold raw garlic. And when you went to the hole, there were certain things on the commissary they wouldn't let you buy, but you could buy always buy raw garlic. Really? Cloves. And like for the whole entire time, every single day I'd eat two to

four cloves every day. I'd eat two to four clothes every day Mm-hmm, and just wanted to do it. Yeah, did a kid probably kept like infections at bay and you know They're getting sick in jail with fucking you never know whatever things about getting sick in jail It's it's the thing the light sicknesses are you're gonna kind of get poo-pooed But like if something's real serious they take it cuz it's the feds. They will take you right out to the hospital. That's cool but um the something's real serious. They take it because it's the feds. They will take you right out to the hospital. That's cool. But um, the well, my friend was in a county jail. And that's the thing people don't know to apparently county the worst. Exactly.

That's what I've heard. Sass pull wickedness. It sucks. My friend was there. He was he was an older guy. And he was in the county jail. Dirty. There's no regulation. He was there during COVID. And he said the guards were so like whacked out about interacting with the prisoners that he was like, if you, they didn't come check on you at all. And the heaters were fucked up.

So he was like, it was freezing cold. It always is. And the air is recirculated. You're getting dandruff. Yeah. He was like, it's freezing cold. And he was like, I'm an older guy. He had, you know, health issues.

He's like, if I had a health complication, I would have died because like we we would there was like a bell or a button they could ring to like get people to come And he's like they would all ring it nobody But like for you know eight hours a night that people just wouldn't show up The they were like we don't want the guards were like we don't want to be around the fucking present Because even if your federal holdover in a county jail you don't get the federal Like if you were in a federal prison. Yeah, there's just like you're in the county jail, you don't get the federal, like if you were in a federal prison. There's just like, you're in the county, that's it. You would think the county would be the nicer one

because it's lesser, well at least you can be waiting to trial, but it's like, usually if you get a DUI, you think the conditions would be nicer to go serve a DUI sentence than like, running a pyramid scheme. It's gotta be the worst place. It's a pyramid scheme. No, I'm saying like, if you did like a high level crime, you get better jail conditions basically

Oh federal prison. No well Once you get there. Yeah, it's true But it was that always that just shocked me cuz my friend went and I was always kind of like oh I you would think like federal prisons like worse than the county, but it's like he was like no. It's actually way better He's like oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know I'm saying yes, but either way so you got so you got a So once you were there and in the book you move around a lot and also there was doesn't it come together at the end No, I like it. Yeah I like you did it you did a good you did a good job of like chronological leaps because it's like you know

You're talking about your one time period like you know I'm waiting trial and then like you're jumping to like being released and the stuff you were doing after that. And then I thought, yeah, that's you pulled it off the chronological. Thank you hold off the letters were. So what was your thought? Because within the book, it's too many. Well, here's the thing. I think they were fine, but they really you gave a pretty a pretty serious glimpse into like the psyche of an incarcerated young person. Some of it was a little too deep. I loved it.

I thought it was great. But the best is when you send a letter to your brother being like, I'm going to fucking destroy you when I get out of here. I'm so jacked. That made me literally laugh out loud in my bed. I was reading that. I'm like, what a funny fucking thing just to be in jail. I'm going to fucking beat your ass when I get out of here.

I'll be so strong. Which I'm sure you're fucking around with your brother, but it was like yeah The the the letters did like the the story You know was flowing the letters like they really gave it some kind of like grab some weight to it, man It was like some of those letters were like thank you kind of dark and it good I thought it was cool because it was you didn't here's my thing You didn't have to put those in there and you did And you really you really showed you know kind of an unfiltered like view of You were and it was cool. It was kind of cool Yeah, I wanted to do the envelopes to prove I was there and then the Hillary wanted me to type the letter out

But then I'm like now that means it could be edited if this letter This is it like you can't change that so with with the letters, there was, I couldn't, I didn't know what you were talking about. You were asking your mom for photos. What was the photo? Oh, she, for Playboy. My parents met at Playboy and she posted a phone. That I knew.

So what did you want the photo for? Just to have, I don't know. No, so she, there's, we would see the photos like when we were little. And so they weren't all naked photos. They're not all nude, but she has a couple. And then on the back it says Playboy Studios. But I think I had a bet or something with someone or some reason ulterior. I can't remember what it was, but I got the picture

and I showed it, I said, look, Playboy Studio. Yeah, that was the one. I think it was a bet. That was the letter I saw in there, there's no context on the letter. So I kind of looked it up and I was like, okay, that's what I thought it was. You wanted the Playboy photos for a bet.

You never said that in the book. So when you're reading it, you're going, this is a freaky-ass bull, dude. Freaky. In prison, I'm gonna be jacking off to my mother. I would never say that. Book so when you're reading it you're going this is a freaky ass bull dude No, but you're right, that's a reasonable thought how fucked up does this dude get he's jacking off to his mother Oh my god, I'd never say so God dad it just made me laugh because I was reading the book and I'm like what the fuck is he talking about these photos? And that that makes sense you had a bet with somebody they didn't believe you No, Gary. I'm pretty sure it was Gary

He didn't believe might not have been a bad it might have just been look I want like a hey my parents Man, I play boy check this out like yeah, that was an interesting story too. That was uh, so how did that go down? I? Think it happened on Lake Parkway at the mansion you have to his mansion my dad collected money I think it happened on Lake Parkway at the mansion, Hugh Hefner's mansion. My dad collected money. He worked in the credit department. My mom worked in some area where like, you're just kind of the traditional whatever.

And then they met at the party and then that they married, I think they married in 63, November 22nd, the day John Kennedy was shot. And I think they met in 61, but they both worked at Playboy. And then Pompeo Pozar was a big staff photographer, just hounded the shit out of my mother until she relented to pose. But the rest of the story, which I've never told anyone,

probably never happened in the history of Playboy. So she posed, they picked her for centerfold Everything was set typeset and everything and she fucking freaked out and she was like take it out. I don't do it She's like no and but she still stayed working there for another year and a half But they said would no one's ever done this like said no. Yeah, and so she's like I can't do it She was sort of traditional Italian Yeah, it's a big Catholic 60 especially back then like people now wouldn't care is everyone people have like only fans and shit

But like yeah back then that was a big she was old-fashioned like that pull the chair out like just What was the thinking though why I guess I guess, you know, I guess if you're in the environment, you get kind of they do that at strip clubs a lot too. We'll take the bartenders and they'll be like, yeah, you should get up there. Just it's just when you're in that environment, they're probably just kind of pushing you. Well, she was super fine. Really? She was extremely fine. Yeah. No, unbelievable. Like, okay, I had a party at the Lake Estate. The Super Bowl was February 4th, and my friend was there,

and my mom came into the kitchen. And so I'm, I don't know, 40. My mom's 65, probably. Now, she's my mom. So like, I, you know, but petite and perfect. You're cursed with a hot mom. So she leaves the kitchen and Bob's there. It's probably five years. My elder. He's like, dude, your sister is so fine. Can I get her? Can I call her? And I said, it's my mom. And he's just like, you know, like that's who she was. but she wasn't like, uh, what's the word? Like she didn't act like she was, but she was really. Yeah. What was it like growing up with like a, like a hot mom basically? I, how could I know the difference? What do you mean? Oh

yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. I was wondering what that was looking back like the way people reacted to her and would talk to her like when we would travel like they were very Attracted to her. Um, I don't know. It probably helped me. I mean if I'm doing my ugly I Think she might have been able to do a lot better than my dad though, right? Yes So what was and what was in the book you include some stuff, like you guys had a rocky relationship,

and then he just died. Yeah. How was that? Because you go into the, it's kind of jarring because I read it. It's like you guys have this like, It's almost unbelievable. Is it like altercation, and then he dies that day.

So a week before he died, maybe two weeks we were at the dining room table, and I'm like, dude, I think something's wrong with you. I think you're going to die. I've been having these dreams. It happened with my grandmother. He said, I'm like, dude, I think something's wrong with you. I think you're going to die. I've been having these dreams. It happened with my grandmother. He said, I'm fine. I had the cholesterol check.

Everything's good. Then the day before. So what was it? October 15th, 1989, 1988. Cause that's the first time I took LSD was a year later on that date, unbeknownst to me. And so we got in a fight over something. The cakes went flying.

It was like a birthday. Someone's cakes was at my mother's. Someone had a birthday coming in. And then that so we had the fight and I ran out of the house and I was kind of a fuck up. I got this new job and then at the job. I started to panic and freak out they trained me And I said I got to go home something's wrong, and then he died right in my arms damn. That's crazy. Which is fucked up Yeah, that's and you were you know early 20s

It's got to be a pretty heavy experience 20 or yeah, 20 19 okay. No, maybe it was 21 69 89 88 7 19. Okay Damn, that's pretty wild. Yeah, that was just like a quick thing mentioned in the book I was like I was just kind of what happened in Marion like so like, you know like in his in World like in nature. There's no wasted energy and if you live to 80, you've had six years of dreams. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. Right. And so like once I got to Mary and from this very first date of the day I left every single night I dream and we'd meet and we talk and get it out. That's cool. Every fucking day. So like I made peace with it somehow.

Like, but yeah, there was a rocky relationship. I mean, my dad suffered from PTSD. He fought in a war. And like, I mean, I don't know if I was, I don't, like, because you mentioned it when you did your thing about hitting a kid. Is that really the way? So five or six-year-old boy, like that's, it didn't happen all the time, but it happened enough to where it's like it's significant.

But it doesn't have to define who I am today. For sure. Yeah. So I don't know. Does that answer your question? No. Yeah, that does. That was a, it was like a heavier moment and the, and this was, I thought this was kind

of interesting too in the book. The, I mean, this was kind of like the crux of the tale was like you're in jail You know you're kind of having a good time here. You know sound a little black door heroin. I was finance my weed Hypocrisy of it right like we're gonna keep this shit illegal. I know what the fuck it is crazy But it for me it was crazy that you just tried heroin and we're like man Oh, yeah, I said the whole thing with drawing the needle back and the blood coming in was that was that like creepy as fuck doing? That like I I don't like needles at all That's why I know it was creepy as fuck and the thing is it just felt like I was really stone

So I'm like I'm not why would I want to do this and except other than smoke pot Yeah, cuz then I'm getting physically addicted. I'll be sucking dick to get more or whatever. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. So it wasn't this otherworldly kind of thing. Oh, that's the thing.

That's it. That's the other thing. When I went to the, when I jacked off in this thing, that's the third thing. So when I was out, that was very significant. So when I was there, I said, sushi surfing. And when I was out selling LSD, they thought you were an alcoholic or doing coke or heroin.

You could not get the good LSD. You were done. And they always trained you for safety first. And it's like they knew. They could see in my soul, this motherfucker will not rat. Somehow they saw that. And when I jacked off, I said I'm gonna fucking try once I want to just try it

I want to stick a needle in my arm, and I'm gonna try heroin was that because of Jerry Garcia having Was he like into heroin then or that was until like the 90s? It's I don't know the whole history. He was in it I mean probably from the beginning, but when he got addicted it was definitely in the 90s bad Really bad and then he went to the forest knolls or serenity knolls and then he died I don't know if it's because of that but it was the reason no it wasn't because of that because the people that do heroin and Coke and are alcoholic they're not thinking safety first, right and then they bring that heat on not thinking safety first. And then they bring that heat on people because they're

in the circles of the heavier drugs, where LSD was very clandestine. Yeah. OK. That makes sense. That was part of your thing. I'm going to try heroin too, once. Once.

Now I can do it. Yeah. That was the three things I promised myself. You were getting crushed by the corporate lifestyle of selling LSD. So you were like, I'm going to do this. I was always to get to the next show, like, because if you went broke, you could sell grilled cheese and beer and make six or 800 bucks by 20 or 30 sheets. Go to some city for two weeks with someone that you just met or they know the city and then make four or 5000.

And you're good for like the whole tour. Yeah. I mean, two or three grand in the 80s on tour was like, you're set. True. You got three or four guys in the car. But like, there always was the juxtaposition. It's like, I'm risking my fucking life for a little bit of money, even though I believe in it. Like, so that was the dichotomy of wickedness.

I mean, how fun was that? Just being, you know, a younger kid basically was amazing. Basically, just following around the great. It was beautiful because like those people accepted me. It was like a family and it was just like love. The scene in the parking lot when I went to the first show was unbelievable. Like it just was what was missing at home. I make sure and it was beautiful. But no, it wasn't like I was in fear because I've sold very little drugs at a show.

I would meet people and like make things happen, but it wasn't like I was out there. Doses, mushrooms, this, that. You weren't really getting after it like that. And you didn't have to because you could do grill and you could grill, grill cheese and beer and do fine and make money. And then, you know, the acid connects. and then like these people who did the LSD like We'll just say rainbow, you know, the Suvian man the Suvian man Yeah, so one side had that and then the one side was surfing hippie ladies And then a sheet is a thousand hits which is like maybe a seven by ten and then ten of those is like accordion So that's that's one gram of LSD, which looks just like a gram of cocaine. And then they would pay someone to

batik those sheets with each square of 100 hits would have the that Vesuvian the Vitruvian man from what's his name on astronaut? Vinci? Yeah, Da Vinci. And the other side would be the surfing hippie ladies. But that piece of paper was like artwork, you could not. You could not you could not counterfeit that. So if you if I saw one of those sheets on the lot, I'm like, all right, rainbows here. I'm not sure it's a mile like I know I can get and then they would front me

anything. But I would never they would front me 10 grams, which is 100,000 hits. But I can I would like what am I going to do with it? And they would train me like if you ever think there's heat around the corner like throw that shit away you just have to stay safe like one time we did a 10 strip and like they were just with me when they met me and it took 10 hits you're saying yeah and they could tell somewhat however they told they could tell but like I was in damn you know I was that like we like that was your first experience was that your first experience I will say no the first one was uh the year the year anniversary of my dad's death I was right a friend's new friends that I met and um we were in the show they were blue unicorns and there were lights like this on the ceiling and we just kept eating the LSD because we're like I'm like I don't think'm like, I don't think it's real. I don't think it's real.

It was her second time. And then, I don't know, I probably got to eight or nine. And then all of a sudden we're like, this is real. But then we just spent the next 15 hours together. We were at the show. It was the most beautiful, lovely experience. Like you could see, you could just, you were just in the moment.

It's hard to explain in words. But that was a beautiful trip. At the time I took the 10 was Northern California. And like you could sleep. I mean, pure good LSD is not. I don't think it's really harmful unless you have a very something psychologically that's really impending you. Or the precursor to the trip, like if you just got in a wicked fight with your ex-wife and she's taking the kids and you got to double the alimony, then that might be bad. Yeah, that makes sense. And you were saying in the book, too, these people who were like, there was only a few people who were able to Somehow secure the ingredients necessary to make else because it is hard it's I knew a guy in a lab and He could be can make almost anything, but he's like I can't make LSD or got I mean tartate

No, it's a substantial amount of glassware, and it's not just some bathtub shit to get pure LSD 25 It took some time and so the other thing is like and you're not just, you're going to end up with millions and millions of hit with a batch, you know? So it's like, you're going to have a lot. But those people that I met, they never were about bling bling. They were specific to safety first and wanting to bring about radical social change. And when I was in prison, I met people from Caracas and all down South America, these big, huge coke dealers. And this one dude, I remember his face,

I can't think of his name. And he sort of made me start to think even more about it because he said like when the LSD came and he knew about Owlsley, he knew all this stuff about like the scene, but he was like this wicked cocaine dealer, but he was so smart. And he said, when that LSD came in, it's when people were rioting in the

government and we wanted to overthrow things. And he's like, that stuff brought about radical social change. So it makes it, it makes sense that the government wanted to be legal, but who knows why maybe, you know, maybe they found some true serum way to like make people, they didn't want Russia to get it, but it did. They did a lot of stuff with alcoholism too. Yeah, that was a big thing for AA. I think LSD, Bill wanted it everywhere.

Yeah. And then at the Jefferson in the 50s, they did. When I was in prison, they had a show with Barbara Walter and LSD. The whole was sentencing and everything. And so in the 50ies, they did this thing where they would take alcoholics, not AA. They take them on one bad trip, seriously bad and show them everything they did wrong. And they filmed it. And then on Barbara Walters inside federal prison, they had like the dude's daughters or sons and they're like 70 or 80.

And they said the LSD saved our lives like our dad or mom never took another drink. They completely change them. So that was a small study. How much do you think how much they were given them? They're probably back then. I think it was they showed it was a thousand mics. They showed that it was from Santos. They called it Dicelyn or something like that. And they would give him a thousand mics, but they literally would take him on a horrendously negative trip the whole entire time in a thing with doctors and like, well, it's weird, too, because and then it would affect them forever till they died. I mean, imagine in the again, in the fifties, like LSD, like, you know, I grew up hearing about it. You have like a context for what it is like. Oh, it's like, you know, it's like hippie stuff and jumping out the window. You're going to die.

Or even even being like, you know, say I was following like fish. And if I was a kid, I would have been like, yeah, it's like it's like weed. It's like you get high. But in the 50s, if someone just hit you with 10 hits of LSD in a lab and like get your fucking life together, I'd be like, ah, I always thought it was going to make you go crazy. together. I feel like I always thought it was going to make you go crazy. And I didn't take LSD till I was. 1990, 1989, 20 was the first time.

And so I had a few times at shows I would buy a sheet or two from someone I didn't know, and I just would sell it at high school. Let's say, is this real? And I did mushrooms a couple of times, but even though I thought I was a free thinker, there was like, you know, you're going to take it and you're going to want to fly and jump out a window like somewhere that got started because that was always in my head. But it wasn't that dangerous. But I don't know if it's for everyone. Yeah, it makes sense. But I think that if a if a big slice like if you go to Gaza, right, then Terrence McKenna would go all the way to group sex but he's like you get both sides Palestine the Jews and let's

all take some LSD and sit in a room I guarantee you they're gonna fucking figure it out yeah and they might start fucking each other that'd be sick right I mean the peace on earth man you know yeah I mean it does seem like it could you know do that it is it is unfortunate, because like you were saying, it's not for everybody. And I have seen people who abuse it kind of lose it. LSD? Yes.

So I've never seen that, I believe it. But I think you have to have underlying stuff already kind of kicking around. You abused it like daily? No, there was like every weekend, just boom. And like, you said in your book, you didn't take it less than a dozen times because it's so Profound what do you need these guys were every weekend that the nitrous?

They're just partying with it, and they I remember wow the one guy. I was in a grocery store, and I'm like oh hey What's up, man? He was working there my guys do this dude. He was he cornered me He's like I'm fighting a battle against light and darkness, and I was like oh boy. I was like all right, bro I was like I'm gonna grab my my like, all right, bro, I was like, I'm gonna grab my my stuff and get out of here, but it was uh, yeah, I remember this guy but again, it could have been just like underlying stuff because that is like You know if you take a person who already has even if like, you know They could have like had a job and just been a little weird or whatever But it's like if you really kind of ramped that shit up and it's like you don't give them any kind of like way

To work through all that stuff. It's like yeah, no, you're right. It makes sense. You would lose your fucking mind. Because you have psych now. What is that? That was a I'm still trying to figure out how to do it. I have an idea with what I want to do, but I got obsessed. So I've always liked psychology. So I've always liked psychology. And then I went to school for social work to get my master's. Yes. I wanted to start something like a that's just not centered around drugs

where you can you can kind of get people. Anything. Yes, who are like, I could talk to people who are, you know, like PhDs or whatever, and have them help me come up with some sort of program that could be peer-led around, like, just mental health stuff in general. That way, like, you can't afford a therapist. You could still have a good group that's like,

it's not like therapy per se but it would be using sharing the tools yeah like that these people like these PhD level people make up and like how do you kind of disseminate them in a way that like it could be done and like a peer-to-peer thing that's my goal and I'm still now looking for therapists now because I want to just salary a couple therapists now that I can to just kind of like run groups and like kind of like see where you're at the whole like online space That's awesome. Yeah, it'd be it's how did you get that name? I made it up. It's like no

I don't know. It's not a funny cuz you know, but um, but yes that that is my goal You know, we do need to figure something out collectively because this isn't you know, it's clearly not working, dude It's like the fact that we're immune to like kids shooting kids in school Now it's like it happens enough to where it's like, alright like alright dude there's some we need to organize ourselves mentally a different way we're organized around you know one thing right now and it's not really money yeah pretty much and it's like it's it's good i don't i don't hate money but it's like it's clearly something's getting fucked up and it's like i really feel like as human beings you know we're organisms and like we're not it's it's hard for people to wrap their head around the fact for and like we're not. It's hard for people to wrap their

head around the fact for everybody that they're not like the most important person in the world because as an organism, if you, you know, if you think about organisms, the cells were all a cell. Well, if you're an organism and you sense an organism that's bigger than you, that's a threat to your life. You know what I mean? Cause if you're, if you're an animal, just say you're an animal, if you're an animal and you see, if you're a wolf and you see a bigger wolf, that wolf is good, very will kill you and that sets off a chain of reactions, but human beings are, sense of like largeness is kind of abstract. So if you perceive somebody's bigger than you in some sense, it can set

off like a very real chain of biological events that can color your thinking and behavior. And it's like, no one really thinks about that, but it's like something people have to come to grips with But whatever but the but yeah, so that's I don't know man I think we could we could have a good time up here on earth, but it's you know it sucks for everybody It's kind of shitty. Is it the human condition? I think so We're stuck the iPhone. Yeah, I got an iPhone in April or May I had a flip phone I got an iPhone in April or May. I had a flip phone

From 2013 I shut off my iPhone to do that motherfucker is worse than bad cocaine Yeah, dude. I'm coming to grips with how addicted I am to my phone and it's bad, man I got my screen time down to like I think like three hours and I think this week I should be hitting too But it's like dude, it's such an addiction. Well, you need it for your business, right? Yeah, hitting too but it's like dude it's such an addiction. But you need it for your business right? Yeah I do but it's like I could use it in a way where I'm not like pulling it out being like... Every two hours they're just... Well the worst part is with social media you're addicted to is yourself. You're like you've commodified your personality. How many likes? You're checking your numbers. How much money? Yeah now you have like it's like It's very real quantitative data on your personality. And so of course, there's an addictive component

to the phone, but nothing's more addictive than yourself and your insecurities and checking on all that. And I think that's what ties a lot of people to it. And the kids, now that they're like, if I don't have likes, this whole idea of shootings. It sucks. Yeah, so that's, you know, but either way. So yeah, whole idea of shootings. Yeah, so that's, you know, but either way. So yeah, I kind of agree.

Something needs to happen. But it's one of those things where it's like when people try to push the pedal, like I got the solution to push the pedal. Usually it's just 10 times worse. So I don't know. I'll be curious to see what happens with people. But either way, so dude, OK, so what else

did I want to ask you about? So you, oh, this is the thing that I thought was crazy. So you're in, you're kicking around different prisons. Six. Yeah, you're six different prisons. It didn't adjust well. Who does, right? True. But you're kicking around, things are going well, you know, you've got some hustles going on.

Always hustle. And then you have the altercation with the guard And this was the thing I thought the craziest part of the book you have the altercation with you said that name in a Disrespectful way the Aryan Brotherhood would have killed you What do you mean wait which guard you're talking about who sent you to Marion? Oh that guy the lieutenant Okay, no, what are you talking about and when I in Marion when I said I'll do you like Tommy silver that was crazy. So ridiculous Okay, I know the black lieutenant though that really was the chain of events to get me there This was a kind of I thought it was kind of nuts. So you're in jail things are going well

Whatever this black lieutenant takes your bag you guys get into an altercation. So they called me a hippie rat He did he threw me down. He called me a hippie rat and I called him a really fucked up name. I don't want to say you don't have to so And then but the whole yard saw that yes, and he had and I never read it, but he knew that he knew I realized that he said that to you in front of all the other prisoners He took he's like that sentence. He's like well because when I came to that prison he wanted the bag Yeah, it's like I'm gonna get that bag I know you faked that property slip. And your friend stitched it for you.

It was like a nice, yeah, it was like your prized possession. James Irving, yeah. So that was the third prison I was in with it. And then I'm coming out a child to go to the yard, and he's like, give me that bag, you hippie rat. And I yanked it back, just saw the reaction. He body slammed me. It's like 6'4 five two fifty two sixty huge

Lieutenant I mean he's running it And he's like you fucking hippie rat and I'm like, oh fuck But he knew when you come in they know who's ratted who didn't rat who I have to be in PC or not So he knew that he was pushing my buttons. But anyway, yeah So that the thing I thought that was wild was like that incident kind of aligned itself with the The crack laws where it was like they reduced the sentences on powder cocaine Didn't reduce the sentences on crack cocaine

So then there were these like racial riots in the jail and then that that was the first one out of 12 to riot That's really 12 prisons around the country Yeah, I like dude the damage was crazy like the bill you were saying did you see the report? No, what was the report? I put I have the whole where I report well now I got to repot it back up on my new website, but it's a report from the Justice Department It's shows like all the prisons that rioted what was Burned down to the ground and they said that the instigator was Talladega, Alabama. And they charged me with leading it, which was the lieutenant.

That was a crazy thing. Yeah. It was really like a racially-inspired riot, because it was like black guys were going to jail for crack. For the most part, white guys are going to jail for coke. And methamphetamine and LSD, they changed all those three. Oh, OK. LSD.

So the black guys were understandably kind of pissed so they rioted it's the same drug I know and then they but then that lieutenant was like oh yeah this guy instigated the riot so you went through from just like you know prison to then having to go to supermax prison based on really just a beef you had with the lieutenant which is fucking crazy crazy yeah there's 22 or 23 black guys and me and then after the riot when they did the hearings Everybody in the prison got in wicked trouble But no one got sent to Marion, but just us 23 and Marion

Do you just explain what Marion is because I didn't know what it was before I read supermax federal prison opened up in 63 after Alcatraz closed, there was a control unit. And then in 1983, Tommy Silverstein and Clayton Fontaine killed two prison guards in the control unit, which was the super max of super maxes. And then as a result of that, they made all of Marion the control unit and they called it the Marion model. So that was the most secure, heinous 23 hour lockdown ever fucking conceived. And man, and then like 2006, they decommissioned it

and then the ADX opened. But in the 1990s was like 385 of the most sophisticated, predacious motherfuckers on planet earth, man and me. What the fuck dude? Long hair. And it was 23 hour lockdown lockdown one hour outside a day yeah and you had bars so that's actually was a saving grace because if you laying

in your cell single cells you looking out you see the big tall windows where the if you imagined it was like a door like in the 80x and some days they might give us 90 minutes damn and you know but that saying in the start in the thing that really kind of like I thought was nuts in the other prison, during the riots, you were like about to go to the yard to work out and you were like, It was weird. Let me go back to my Dean who went out on the yard because he said that after the riots, they both got transferred to this other prison. Then T came to Marion.

And then he just, he didn't know that what you just said that I put in the book, but he told me what happened out on the yard. And he said Dean was almost dead. Like he was beat so bad. Like his head caved in, like he was alive, but just like not doing really good. Even after like months of like he was that fucked up. But then in the unit you walk in and it was just a jungle, but like we were all together. They were breaking the machines. We were trying to break down the door to where all the records were. because that all the official records were still like

These guys we had all the other crack log guys wanted to burn No, I only have a year No, they would have said I know I know that I'm saying I know that'd been crazy taking that down and that book I taught And the book you can't win by Jack Black that he's like a burglar or whatever in the early 1900s He ends up finally in a jail in California. I think in uh Was it Folsom? Maybe it was full. I don't know where it was but he uh Either way he got there's an earthquake and all of the records for all the prisoners got destroyed in like a fire or something And he ended up getting stuck because he couldn't get out

You couldn't go in or out because he was already there. So we couldn't prove like he did enough time, but he eventually did get out. But yeah, that's damn if only those guys had grabbed the records that have been so sweet when I when they toured us out of the because I didn't see everything that happened once they locked us down. We were in that unit for eight nine ten, 13 days before we left for Marion. But when they took us all out to go to Marion, the one building was burnt to the ground and another building was halfway burnt down. And then when we were in there,

we could hear bulldozers and shit, but you didn't really know what's happened. But I'm like, where the whole housing unit was, it was gone. It's like, fuck. I mean, you could smell smoke, but you just didn't know how bad it was. And then before they took our radios we would hear on like that one, dude. I

Can't remember that guy would always come out in the morning his national Radio show, but he had started to say about all these other prisons that rioted mm-hmm He was always said all the other ones and they kind of suppress that yeah I remember reading how they were trying to act like nah, we're good and then other didn't other ones like Say there was stuff just so that they could clamp down and get overtime and exactly that was in the report, too Yeah, there were some that did that and the funny thing is the ones that here's the thing what I what I talked about earlier the medium security prisons were the ones where the most violence in buildings being burned happened because these guys that It's an it's a

Consensual crime I sell you something. I know it's illegal. All right, I didn't do the crime do the time But it's like I could have raped I could have robbed you I could have stolen so much more money and gotten less time like it's not Justice that was always my thing. It's like the prison law should be according to who would get rather have is your neighbor right yeah yeah would I rather have a guy who sold coke or a pedophile it's alright a pedophile longer time than a guy who sells coke because it's like that's who I'd rather live next to if I had to choose or if I didn't have a choice it would be like you know that it should be people should be sensed

accordingly did you ever look at when you moved to a new neighborhood, the federal sex offender registry? I check it all the time. It's unbelievable. Map and you could just hover. You see who they are, what their crime is, are they on probation? And there's a lot of them. What a tool.

Yeah. They're everywhere. And there's a lot of them, man. I did it when I lived in Philly and there I was shocked. There was like a there was a decent amount. I think they had them all in one house. They were all in like this one house, like four blocks away. And I don't know if they just like some landlord.

That might be my next play, you know, free prison. What do you mean? Like, you know, like, because the state, there's a demand, where are you going to put them when they come out? Right. Yeah. And maybe like, there's just, I don't know, like the greed makes me think about it. But like, if you could find a place for them to live, you're gonna have a, you know, you'll be able to rent the unit out every time. Oh, you're talking about like pedophiles specifically? Yeah, yeah. pedophiles, pedophiles. Yeah, there's there's where what are we gonna do with them? Where are

we gonna put them? And the thing is, I don't know if it's an addiction, I want to think it is but like those guys should never come out ever Yeah, they should have to you should like ever they should be there There's a documentary to watch where they it's called pervert park It's it's a really rough watch, but they they look at trailer park in Florida, and they're just like gated community It's like they just all live in here and people just fucking all bottles over No, okay, so they're contained then at least they know where they are But dude not like so I used to get housing for people when I went to school for social work

One of my jobs was yeah and housing for prisoners you get out of jail I would do a little interview of the hey, you know, I'd have to get like what is the nature of your crime? But it was like it was just like selling drugs and stuff and then the lady who ran it didn't tell me she had opened up to pedophiles because that was one of my, I would like, you know, the crap break the ice because I didn't like being like, Hey, what'd you go to jail for? So I'd be like, Hey, I have to ask you this. As long as you're not like a pedophile, whatever, don't worry. And they would always be like, Motherfucker, I'm not a fucking pedophile.

I'm like, ah, you know. And then one day the guy was like, well, I actually am. And I was like, what? And then they were like, yeah. And I talked to my boss. I'm like, what the fuck? And she was was like yeah, I decided to start taking pedophiles We got to find them housing too, and I was like uh Okay, but what year this was only like this would have been 2019

2019 2018 around then my thing was like I didn't want to and I will call their probation officers because I would be like I Don't there isn't their laws these guys can't be, I can't like throw this guy in a Best Buy. Like there's kids around there. No, there's the thousand feet or whatever by a school and all that. I think there is. That's what I thought it was, man. But this this person, it was kind of like, you know, leading the thing, you know, as far as I remember, was kind of like, no, no, no, they're fine. They have rights. And I like, I called the guy's probation officer. I'm like, this guy can't work here, Kenny. The probation officer was probation officer was like fuck No, I was like yeah, I didn't think so so it was weird I remember end up telling the lady as a guy don't ask don't tell we got to get rid of them

I was like bro. I'm not sending this guy. You know into apartment buildings I don't know so it was a I just told her like I don't you know the stigma seems less now for ex drug dealers It does those guys legal. I mean if you went to jail for weed like is how could that even I got those I got those guys houses pretty easily Cuz I would just cold call landlords and be like hey, I got this great deal six month upfront paid rent They're like well. What is it? What is it? I'm like here's the catch and then they will go oh Come on man. I beg dude. They're not like fucking pedophiles They're just they just sold drugs like come on six months is paid up people pay their rent Who cares and then so they were cool about that? But once she's trying to have me find like the pedophile and I had to tell her like look

I'm not the guy to help cuz now they're gonna you know them well not even yeah Then you were to fuck up all these other guys housing and it's also like Like I remember the one dude would call me the guy who was on my caseload who had that kind of stuff and he would Just be like hey, I'm outside in my head like, you know, I wouldn't even be there and I'd be like I don't give a fuck He's like it's raining and I'd like tough something There's got to be someone who can help that guy. They do need help from somebody but it was like I'm not I can't do it Man, I just I couldn't do it like you just build like it's you know, 600 unit spot like and you just they're all there Where are they gonna go?

Dude, it's a weird thing to do and they just kind of like hush the yeah and quietly tuck them in a neighborhood like hey You know here's the guys here, and it's like it's fucked up, man It's really not when you do the real estate transaction you got to say you know about the sex offender You registry like you have to check that box Because it's like no one if someone moved into your neighborhood, and they know that it's gonna devalue everything yep It's that those guys They never seem to be able to break free No, it's not like you sold LSD you went to prison you never sold it again exactly even if you did

Well, I did flood Marion with it. Did you really this time? What? So yeah, you were in the slow you're not dead. I've set it up. I don't want to say his name Oh, I remember this when you cuz you were pissed when you got is that was that correct? I don't think I put it in the book, but Maybe I put it in the book. I don't think it's 2015. I got out No, that would have after the statute of limitations. So I set it up. I set it up. I said to my friend I said listen, I don't know if I'm gonna do this. But if you get a letter that's like this from this place This is where the LSD OB

So I drove I mean I was on federal pro all this shit's past It's five years statue limitations that the only way that they can extend it is if they ask a court Then they have to notify you it's just all entertainment anyway, dude. So right and So I got it. I got the liquid. I put it on the paper. I wrote this letter with gloves on with my right left hand, you know, the envelope. And I drove, actually drove past Marion way down south through Illinois and then into some that state that's right to the east,

either Tennessee or Kentucky. And then just went to a mailbox With a stamp and just put it in So then it had that right thing right and then um He acknowledged it and a very With the future letter he didn't say anything. Yeah, but then I never wrote him back again I didn't say anything, but then I never wrote him back again. That's cool. I had to do it as one last act of defiance.

Like just I had to do it. The thing is like they could have come to me and said, he said he got caught with it. You sent it. There was no fucking trace. I didn't have a cell phone. It's not like they knew I drove there. I didn't get pulled over. There was no like there's no way. And it just got it just ran right through there. I must have wild.

The thing is, like I did a line of coke one time in prison and like smoking weed. It took it was hard to get used to that. When James first got me stoned, I was crying in my bunk because it's just the horror of what, dude, that must have that must have been terrible. And that high in jail twice. There was acid and I didn't take it. But one time this guy gave me this land of coke ether based just wicked, just so high. But then coming down off that dude was like, not that you want,

you wanted more, but you're like, I'm in fucking prison, dude, that's a hard fucking reality. So what was it like an acid? Yeah. Herb got four or five hits, each was 200 mics. And he asked me for like a week, not to push me, but he said, because he's like, we're all going to take this, but there's one for you. And then he kept coming to the child and saying, are you sure? Because he's like, I'll probably never get this again. And then I remember when they took it, they had a great time. But I just thought if I took that in jail, like eight or 10 hours of tripping in prison, I don't know, man.

I couldn't do it. I couldn't. I have a friend who smoked K2 in jail, like the synthetic weed. Yep. And he said he fucked. And this guy was doing like nothing heroin. Isn't it just like weed? Yeah, but apparently it's like kind of harsh from what I've

heard. It can be like, because it's just a chemical. So like weed, the plant can only get so strong. But K2, they're spraying these synthetic cannabinoids, you know, it could be fucking. Who knows? Exactly. So he said this guy, he you know, he had done like tripping all the drugs you could possibly do. And he was like, dude, fuck that shit. He said he was in there.

He kept hearing people come in, check in on it like it wasn't happening. It was him and a dude in there just in terror. Did you like the way? We made pipes yeah It worked perfectly and the thing is and if you blow the smoke out with another tube of bounce you you see smoke But you cannot smell it. That's that was the old College trick to you got to suck the whole head down though, so there's no little smoke left That was the that was the college trick you put the Febreze

So there's no little smoke left. That was the that was the college trick you put the Febreze Fabric fabric softener sheet in a paper towel thing and blow it out cuz spots So smell so strong to people that don't yeah Smoke it yeah smoking weed in jail does seem like a lot of trouble seems like you'd have to be really kind of care I guess you go outside Sparky took me on and we just kept hitting this joint kept hitting this joint during the move right when I arrived when I got back I swear to God it was like I took ten hits acid freaked out was so fucking stoned like Dude, and I'm like a hundred and fifty one months. I hadn't won an appeal. It was just this wickedness It really said it that weed does that to you where you're like the reality of stuff

That's every day took me twice a day and after about a week Fuck it you got a fortified. Fuck it. You got to do your time. Right. And then they taught me how to beat the piss test. You drink. Oh, yeah. I read about that. You drink a gallon of water and then the lieutenants give you two hours and because they can't just grab you and say, P, they say you got two hours to report to the lieutenant's office. You got to drink a full

gallon in 15 minutes. They taught me this. And then they said by the sixth or seventh piss, they said, you want to wait to seven. If you can wait till eight, it's just pure water. Don't you get a dilute though? I heard you the drug test now they can hit you with it was too diluted where this was the 90s. And the thing is, whenever they would take the they take it, you'd go back to the lieutenant's office. They would make it look like they're putting it in a mailer, but then they would always ask you if you admit to us, you did,

you did drugs. We'll give you, we'll only give you 30 days. I mean, I never would, but nothing ever came back dirty today. The test might be different. The whole whatever, but if you didn't piss, you would get a a dirty then it's 90 days in the hole And you'd probably get transferred. Yeah, it sucks Which is the fucking worst and you also give they you know even if it was diluted you'd have the time Does it have to get mailed out ran through a lab and by then it's like hey? I don't know did they do that in the 90s the dilution. I've just heard about it I don't know I was so young in the 90s

I was a I was a wee boy, but the I remember hearing about that move like just slam a bunch of fucking water But then it would the test will come back is like inconclusive because it was just too diluted I don't think I think that eighth piss because you're talking now Maybe at 45 50 minute mark if you slam that it looks like water. It smells like water Yeah, it's probably barely 98 degrees warm. So it makes sense back then that they would have been in it. But today I think they probably could detect it. Yeah, I had to do a drug test when I was working for my dad.

They just demolition. We were like working in like on the hospital kind of. Or was it a hospital? It was a school. It was a school. So they like everyone had to get drug tested. So I remember we had to do we had all day. And it wasn't like you had somebody watching you. So we just had like, I filled up a latex glove of pee from somebody I knew. And then you just keep a hand warmer on it. So it keeps it at like 98 degrees. How did you know he was clean? You just hoped?

I just knew he was. I asked him. He didn't smoke weed or do anything. So I was like, let me get pee in this glove for me. Or pee in a thing and then I just dumped it in the glove. And it worked? Kept it on a hand warmer. But but then I got there my friend needed some too So we had to split it and then we both I didn't realize there's a minimum amount. So we both gave like that They take it That's nurse was cool. She's really but they they hit you with a temperature. That was a big thing They temp check it cuz I'm they see if it's cold

So the hand warmers I'd asked for hand warmers in like July as you guys have hand warmers back here They're like yeah, but why I was like I don't know man. I just need them. I'm going somewhere No, but yeah, that is a that's pretty crazy. So then that story too about get what about the duffel bag What about what do you think happened to it? What the duffel bag you got taken from you? Didn't you get it? Did you get it back? Yeah? Yeah, that was the end of the book man you get that was it all came together that guy what the fuck so that mother Fucking bed he held no he that lieutenant sent it to me after I got home from Marion Which means he held it the whole time. I was in Marion What the hell was it what was that about why did he give it back to you?

It was the fuck you you think that was his fuck you? 100 percent. What? You don't think that was I thought I took that as the guy who was like had a nice moment where he was just like, yeah, let me give this guy his bag back. No way. Why did he do that? Just to be a dickhead? I think so. I burned it in a 55 gallon drum that day. I had a ceremony to let it all go.

That's pretty. That's cool. That makes sense. I did. And maybe it was. I never thought that. I mean, I wasn't in a bad. It just struck me like this motherfucker sent it back now. I is weird. Also, is it normal to keep like, how would he even get an alert that you were out?

He was following it. He had to be. Yeah, that's kind of weird. Yeah. So like, but it represented so much. I had to, like the Phoenix, just let this go. And I had a ceremony. That's pretty cool.

No one was there, and I just like, this is going. This thing's out of here. That makes sense to just. I don't regret it. But it would have been kind of cool to say, hey, here's the green duffel bag. But I had to let it go. I had to just get rid of it. It symbolized so

much. Yeah. And just to move on. Was that bad psychologically? What do you think? No, I think that's, you know, feel good doing that. Get rid of it just to, you know, that way you're out. That's like a chapter that's totally done with. Yeah. And there's something kind of cool and ceremonial about being like, all right, I'm done with this part of my life. I can let go. Especially if you think the guy was fucking with you. I'd be like, fuck you, dude. Well, I don't know that.

It shocked me, though. Yeah, I'd be freaked out. That this came. It was shocking. Yeah, that would have freaked me out. First of all, I was like, dude, you're keeping tabs on me. Staying with my brother, which the probation officer would have known, but all my other stuff I had.

Yeah. Like, because when I left Marion, there's that stuff that got sent. Like, this is maybe weeks or months later. It just was weird. It is weird. And then the one thing I did want to ask you about, because this is in the book as well,

you got out and you started a pretty successful real estate. Dude, I was so focused. I got to come back. No, I was, like, by accident. The house, there was a bust. They took the, they showed Coke. Yeah, there was a bust. They've took the they showed coke. I was going to my job. There's an arcane law that was like you can make an unsolicited bid with the

marshal service if they take if they seize assets. And I knew all this from jail. Yeah. And so then I actually dated the marshal. It helps. A little. She probably would deny it. But so I bought that house. I bought that house probably 18 months later for like twenty five thousand. And then I just like felt like changing the design. My mom would always take me to these Frank Lloyd Wright homes. And so I just started doing it.

And then some people helped me in the neighborhood. They saw sympathetic to the architecture, but I needed help like with the design and just people and contractors. And then that just started the evolution and I was hyper focused monster just like going after it, like not worried about a Rolex, but just loving what I do. And I was good at it. The best that I've ever been at anything probably in the world of commerce and making money that's legit, paying taxes, I mean 2005 I paid 175,000 in federal tax, I mean where the fuck did that money go man, a fucking tank trend,

like god damn, but yeah so that just focused me and I just would buy buildings, restore them, or buy apartment buildings, restore them, rent them and sell them. That's cool Yeah, and you got into like just kind of I remember the I did addresses and everything and then my lake house I will this massive lake estate S109 W35 190 Jax Bay Road Eagle, Wisconsin five three one four nine dude nice fucking unbelievable. Yeah, that spot was unbelievable you got hit with a subprime mortgage crisis yeah man I was told that's wild dude I was told not to yeah I mean I don't

blame them I was rich I wanted to get to three million and then get three million in t-bills and then still what I did still do what what I do. But that was my goal. And I had nine years at a million 10. I bought that lake estate and two other houses, 6429 North Santa Monica and 1525 North Marshall. And then just, it went, man. And I paid all the mortgages till I had like 11,000 left. And then a bankruptcy lawyer came to me and said,

if you file bankruptcy, you could stay in that lake house for another 18 months. And I said, dude, I'm giving the keys back. Like, it's done. I'm not just going to stay here. And I flew to Hawaii. And I started to care take a farm. But that took me 10 years mentally,

like now, like you being on here. Like, that focus and drive, it's there I have it but I I still do it today and I have a little not where I was but I'm not driven like I was and I want to be right I want to be you're still doing the properties yes that's cool rehab and fixing up yeah yeah that was I guess I'm an artist and buildings are my medium I'm not a contractor because I can't do it for someone else because then it's their vision and I can't just do what I do with the people you know that's true so kids that's what I know like I can't you know like I'm not a painter for sure that's kind of like what the hand I was

dealt yeah no that's and I love working out I like working out a nice physical job yeah yeah so what it's a what's the plan now what are Yeah. Yeah. So what is so what is the plan now? What are you up to now? And what's your what's your plan to do? Well, you've inspired me. I'm going to do an audible on the book. I'm going to do a second edition. I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep the name. And then the whole social media thing is like all new to me. But like you can get paid for views. Yeah. Like you can go on a show and drink liquid death and show it. And you're gonna get 10 fucking grand Like I see it. I understand marketing like holy fuck

Fuck yeah, man, why not? Like it's cool that the fame part is weird to me, but I guess like that's part of it You know, like we're gonna start a podcast or something I don't think I could compete right but you just want to do The real I want to love to sell the book the movie rights. I had started a cream play. That would be really cool Yeah, but the book it was funny because you sold you did what 5,000 copies? Yes, sold them and now the only books are on Amazon and I was like people and I'm not I'm not selling them for $200 Those are other people looked up his book. Me and Nate were there.

Nate Marshall were looking at it. You thought it was me. I was like, damn, this guy's selling his books for fucking $200. No, and that's all their secondhand sellers that they sold all your ones. Yeah. From the soft white underbelly. It's like within a couple of months, I'm like, Mark, what the fuck? People are selling my book for 250.

He's like, yeah, that's part of the deal. You got to print more, dude. I could print more. Or do a second edition. Because what I want to do is a chapter every other letter, every other chapter, and then add Marion. I took a bunch of stuff out about Marion. Yeah, the book was great.

I'm telling you, the book was great. I couldn't stop reading it. But they do a feature film on a guy who invented the delay on a windshield wiper, $80 million. Like, they do a feature film on a guy who invented the delay on a windshield wiper $80 million. Like they'll do it on anything. But the story that's not my story. I mean, my story is there. But just the story of the history of Marion. Yeah. And the the drug laws and like the the riots. Yeah, what the fuck was and it was fascinating.. It's crazy after this many years like you have me on this podcast

It makes it relevant again like unfucking believable like how the fuck like you saw that show and you're like I gotta get this guy Like yeah, well what and then I took 21 days to respond. I'm like, oh my god, this motherfucker's gonna think This motherfucker's gonna think not big Why I think it was crazy how you were in there and you're describing like the people especially in Marion like these guys would kill You like without hesitating and you have to form friendships with these guys and hang with him here And you know holiday in the fact. Yeah the fact that you did tell big Mike McCartney We didn't get out I'll leave that in the book But yeah, that is funny that you just really beefed with the guards on that level Threaten them to your kill. Well, I thought about it on the plane coming here

There was a leader of the Aryan Brotherhood who's now in the 80x Mike McElhenney He never overtly I thought danger of him But I knew he was a wicked dude like you have like the big wolf But like he gave me a respect And it had to be because who the fuck would he also probably thought I was fucking idiot because the guards could have killed me But like who would have ever said that yeah, I'm gonna do you like Tommy Silverstein like what the fuck man That's insane. I mean, I'm not bragging, I'm like at all. Like how could that have even come out of my mouth?

It shows you the, I don't know, the naivety I still have probably to this day in some form. But no, that was pretty sick. But, well dude, yeah man, fucking pumped. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. Perfect, thanks bro. Thank you.

See you man. Thank you.