Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - "Barack Is My Home" with Oprah Winfrey

Episode Date: May 9, 2023

Michelle and Oprah talk about Michelle’s 50th birthday party on Oprah’s estate, how they foster relationships that last, and why—even after everything that has happened in our country—Michelle still believes in “going high." Find the episode transcript here: audible.com/tlp/episode8 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Light Podcast is presented by Starbucks and into it. Wow! Oh my goodness! So I know all of you have been at some point in your life to an event where the host and is standing there before you and says, we have our guests this evening who needs no introduction and then they spend the next 20 minutes telling you everything that person did since they was born. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that because I know you already know who's here. I'm here for the same reason you are to get some of that light cheese carrying. So the woman who needs no introduction for real are forever first lady Michelle Obama! Hi everyone and welcome to the Light Podcast. I'm Michelle Obama. If we're trying to get through a tough stretch,

whether that's a couple of days or a couple of years, one of the most important tools we've got is other people, and it's easy to think that friendships or relationships follow a simple formula. The more you see someone or talk with them or text with them, the harder you can lean on them. But my experience with my father tells me otherwise. My father passed away 32 years ago, and sadly, I've lived most of my life without him. But the depth of that relationship, the wisdom he passed on to me, the confidence he instilled

in me, the moral compass he steadied me with, those things are still embedded in me, and I draw on them every single day. He did it all and less time than either of us wish we had together. I think we all wish we had more time with those we love, whether they're across the country, or sleeping in the same bed with us at night. So, what I want to talk about are the ingredients that make relationships endure. How can we foster connections that last? And who better to join me for this episode than the queen of fostering human connection, Oprah Winfrey? Oprah and I have known each other since the day she showed up on my doorstep when Barack was running for Senate. In the time since, she's become a friend, a mentor, a guide. She constantly encourages me

to use my voice, my light, to help others find theirs. As you will hear in this episode, she always, always delivers. My goodness! Woo! Woo! Wow. Can you... I have to say, the people came to see you. Well, I think it was a pretty big added bonus that we got, Ms. Oprah Winfrey here too. I have to just say this, every other moderator was so glad that they weren't following you.

Well, it's so interesting because I've been watching you on Instagram and people have been sending me, oh my gosh, you should see what Conan did. You see what Tracy Ellis rusted. You see what Geldon, did you see Tyler? Did you see Ellen? And so I was feeling kind of like, oh my God. What's your fearful mind kicking in? My fearful mind. See, even Oprah Winfrey has a fearful mind.

You know what happened? I thought, okay, I'm'm gonna go back to the toolbox exactly You know how to do this. Yeah, I know how to do an interview. I know how to do an interview I'm not scared of the people So here we are. Yes, thank you for being here my dear dear friend. I love you so much I love you too. Appreciate you so you too. I appreciate you so much. Same, back at what you stand for. I want to know where were you and what was going on

when you first realized this here is serious. Yeah. And we're not going nowhere. Yeah, yeah. You know, interestingly enough, I was on the road becoming the tour had just finished. We took some time off and I was on the road becoming had the tour had just finished. We took some time off and I was on the road doing a couple of speaking engagements

and I was in Las Vegas because I also couple those engagements with a celebration with my team to thank them for the hard work they had done on the tour. So this is March, 2020. This is March. And there was still buzz about COVID in the air, but it's sort of back and forth. What is this?

So we're in Las Vegas. And that's when there was a slow wave of cancellations. You remember that ripple of that? Yeah, yeah. Because people didn't know what to do. Correct. You know, companies were making split decisions, and so we're stuck in Vegas watching the world slowly turn off.

That's what it felt like. You know, events started being canceled, and we're in Vegas slowly, the casino started to empty out. The streets in Las Vegas started to empty. It felt like we were in a ghost town. Did you think you needed to get home or did you think? Yeah, we weren't trying to be responsible and wait until the last event canceled.

Right. And then finally they canceled it. We got back on the plane, got home. So that felt eerie, being out there on the road when slowly the world was shutting down. And we really weren't sure. Yeah, we weren't sure about it. Everybody was just using hand sanitizer.

That's right, that's right. Washing off their groceries. Yeah, washing off the groceries. Yes, yeah. That was that phase, yes. And then I was worried about the girls because they were in still at school. And I'm thinking, my babies are out there with the COVID.

And I was hoping that the universities were going to be responsible. And then finally, the decision was made that they were coming home. But then I was thinking, oh my god, they're coming to my house. You know, I was thinking, they're going through airports and sitting on airplanes. So Barack and I caution caution them to wear masks.

And when they got home, I made them stay in the garage. And open all their stuff up. I was going to make them stay out there. I took them to take off their travel clothes. I mean, we didn't know what was going on. My husband thought I was being a little irrational. But I was like, we're trying to, we didn't know what was going on. My husband thought I was being a little irrational. But I was like, we're trying to, why we didn't know.

You know? That's not irrational, honey. Seppman was in the guest house for 14 days. I remember. That was during the 14 day period. See now, Malia and Sasha, at least I let you come in the house. But we were preparing to create a COVID safe community. And since they had traveled, we were kind of holding our breath, making sure they didn't bring any

virus home. Of course. So we didn't know how long to wait. What was the incubation period? So we instituted a set of common sense protocol in our household. We had a COVID community, everybody that was managing in the same way. We were masked. We sanitized. We continued to have a small community of people, but we socialized outside six feet apart, because Barack was like this.

It is a virus. And if we keep ourselves, he knew enough to know what this was. So it was scary, but we had information. What was scary? So you were comfortably afraid. We were comfortably afraid. What was scary? As you talk about in the book, being comfortably afraid.

That's what I was talking about, scary. Yeah, but what scared me, Oprah, was watching the confusion in the world, the mixed messages, the inconsistency, the lack of leadership, the lack of a plan, you know, watching people not take this seriously, you know, people treating the pandemic like it was an extended vacation, people arguing about wear masks,

watching kids partying on the beach and Florida. That's great. Remember, yes. That was scary because I'm thinking all those kids are going to go home to a grandparent or somebody with an autoimmune disease and it is going to be catastrophic. That was the thing that scared me. Watching disinformation, that's scary.

Watching people attack scientists and the experts who were trying to steer us towards something and just that was the frightening part of it for me, watching the world not deal with this well. So before reading the light, we carry, I was feeling, and I know so many of you were feeling this too because we have all these conversations about how bad things are when we were with our friends. And I think a lot of us were feeling like you felt before you wrote it that there are so many massive problems. There's

so many things that need to be overcome and And it feels like that there's a conspiracy of craziness going on out here. So how do we get back to trust? Yeah. Trusting our government, trusting each other. Yeah. In a way that doesn't make us feel numbed and tired all the time.

Yeah. I think we can't underestimate what quarantine did to exacerbate that because we were isolated from each other physically. And while to some that felt good, it's like, whoo, I'm so tired of people, right? I think we need to be with each other. We really do. I think when we gather and we mix our togetherness, we feel better.

We feel better. I just feel better. I haven't been able to do that. I always say it's harder to hate up close. We feel better. I feel better just being here tonight. I feel better. And we haven't been able to do that. I always say it's hard to hate up close. And we have been isolated from each other. We're just hearing about each other from the news and from our feeds.

And my experience with this country is that it's a distortion of the truth of who we are. I have traveled all around this country in communities of all different races and socioeconomic backgrounds and political affiliations and people have crossed the board been kind and decent. To me, to my family, once they get to know us, they may not agree, but we are not the people that we see on TV. And I just want us to remember that, that we do not, we should never fear each other.

Everyone, there are the outliers of people who are struggling deeply, but the vast majority of people are like two and grams and mom and dad. They are hardworking, honest, decent people who are not entitled, who are grateful, who are proud Americans, who are willing to work hard, who tell the truth. That's who our country is, and but we have to have leaders that reflect that back. You know, it is dangerous when our leadership says something different. My parents were really good at unconditional love, right?

This is my big brother Craig. So they just made us feel like our house and our home was the best place to be, the safest place to be. You could talk about anything you want. They never said, it's because I said so, right? They always explain their decisions and my mom was really good for saying, I don't know the answer to that, but I'm gonna find out the answer, and then I'm gonna give it to you. If you ever ask their question, they caught her off guard, right?

I don't think many parents did that then, and I don't think many parents do that now. I get the feel of people who sort of avoid those kind of interactions with their kids, the hard interactions. Oprah and I will be right back in a minute. The light podcast is brought to you by Intuit. The technology platform that helps build your confidence with financial tools like TurboTax, Credit Karma, QuickBooks, and MailChimp.

When did we all become so scared of our finances? Why are we afraid to talk about debt with even our best friends? And why does even thinking about money cause us so much stress? It's time for that to change. So instead of being afraid of your finances, you can become empowered by them. And into it, it's here to help you do just that. We give you the tools to become financially confident so that you can take charge of your future. Whether it's starting that business, you've always wanted to own or setting off on that trip you never want to forget.

We support you in building a brighter tomorrow. Into it has helped over 100 million people take control of their finances. Now it's your turn. So let's get into it. This episode is brought to you by Starbucks. Some say the world has never been more divided and uncaring, but from where we stand, we see so much kindness in our stores every day.

This is a real story shared by a customer from Westchester County, New York. It was my usual crazy morning, you know, waking up early and getting the kids fed and off to school. And after I dropped them off at the bus stop, I went into Starbucks and I ordered my usual. But when I reached into my pocket, I noticed that I left my wallet and my phone at home. Thankfully, the kindest woman was standing in line behind me and offered to pay for my coffee. I don't know her name, but thank you so much whoever you are. A wonderful reminder that a little kindness

is never really little. Here's more of my conversation with Oprah. You finished the sentence, I still hear my father's voice. With. Whenever. I mean, it's as deep as like, whenever. His voice is ringing through my head. His voice was, you know, with me on my first day at Princeton, you know,

settling myself into this bastion of elitism. He was with me on my first day at my law firm, even after he died. He still was there walking me down the aisle because he was the model. He helped model for me the man I should have. So I was able to see Barack. I was able to see him, see past all the external stuff,

and the external stuff was really pretty good ladies. But I could see what was important to look for in a man. He's with me now. He is with me on this stage. He is what I tap into when I'm trying to speak some truth to people and show my authenticity and my vulnerability. He is there whenever.

I love that you said that he helped you in many ways to be able to see what you needed to see in Barack Obama. Can we talk about your husband for a minute? Oh, yes, please. Yes, please. People have tried to capture your love story. They've tried to capture the love story. They've tried the movie the love story. They've tried, they've made the movie,

the drama movie, they did the series, the first lady, they did the trying, but they can't get it. They cannot get it. But you summed it up so completely in just one sentence that was so powerful that when I read it, it actually stopped me and made my eyes water. Do you remember what the sentence was? No, what was it?

Well, I don't know what sentence made you weak. Okay. The sentence you were talking about, you've lived many places. Mm-hmm. And. Oh, and. And.

Barak. Barak is my home. Barak is my home. Yes. Barak is my home. Barak is my home. Barak is my home. Barak is my home. Yes, he is. Now, go home and see if you can ask yourself that question.

LAUGHTER About the person you're with. You're so silly. LAUGHTER Are they your home? And I appreciate how you break it down to us that first trip to Hawaii. Because when you first arrived in Hawaii,

you were looking for, and I understand why you're working woman and had never been in Hawaii. So you're looking for the Hawaii on Hawaii 50. Those of you who remember that show. My ties, my ties, and Sunny Moon's on the beach, and Honeymoon's Suites. But instead, yeah, instead, it was a trip home to visit his family.

That's where he was from. He wasn't going back to some island vacation. He was going back to be with his people. But I was young and it was cold in Chicago. And I thought I'm going to Hawaii with my man. It's going to be so romantic. And then we landed and we went straight to Toot and Gramps' apartment, no ocean.

There's a high-rise building, go up to the 10th floor, you know, walk in. Looks like my grandparents house. I was gonna be on South Side of Chicago, which was a wonderful thing, right? To know that I saw his, I was familiar with his thing, right? To know that I saw his, I was familiar with his family, right?

Then we cuddle up, what's on the TV? 60 minutes. And, you know, they pull out some TV trays and I think we probably had tuna sandwiches with sweet pickles. I was like, yes, I looted like this. Within some days, you would go to the beach and then I love the moment where he says, okay, gotta go. We're going back to Tudon Gramps and it's days, you would go to the beach, and then I love the moment where he says, okay, gotta go.

Going back to Tudan Gramps and it's like, oh, I'm back to the house, yeah. So I was young and silly, and I started feeling like, well, I don't know if I lengthened, since it's not as romantic, it's like thought. Although I didn't act like that. So my mother knows I did not act like some little spoiled person.

I was very thinking, where is the Hawaii? Where is the Hawaii? Hawaii, right? Exactly. But you are thinking, where is the Hawaii? Where is the Hawaii, you find it? Yeah, where is the Hawaii, you find it? Exactly. But I conclude the story by saying that, you know, what Barack was showing me was the real of him. And sometimes as people looking for partners, we're looking for what we think are my ties and sunsets. And what we need is somebody who respects and loves

their family and is going to show up for them. I show you that again and again. That's what they're showing you. and what we need is somebody who respects and loves their family and is going to show up for them. Show them that. Again and again. That's what they're showing you. And Barack valued the time that he had with his family. It was nice to go to the beach, but being there for his mother and his grandmother is a little sister, helping them work through their stuff.

He was the rock of their family. And let me just tell you, he always shows up for me and the girls. In that same way, he is present and there when we need him. And that's what he was showing me in Hawaii when I was trying to get to the beach. I think what we also appreciate in both becoming and also in the light we carry is how you are so candid about your relationship,

about your life, and how everything is not perfect. You say it took some time and a lot of practice for you all to work through your disagreements. So what's your style? You talk about your style and his style. I've said this to him, I've said this before, one of the things that's different

and how we show love is that because his family lived far away and traveled a lot, he had to learn to love at a distance, you know. And that means they're more words said, more love exchanged, more physical, you know. I love you, I love you, I love love you, I love you too, you know. I grew up with everybody like within eight blocks of each other, you know, all my aunts and uncles

and great uncles and cousins and, you know, everybody celebrated birthday. So we were with each other every weekend, twice a weekend, we were always together. So it was like, hmm, bye. I don't have to tell you I love you because I'm a CU Saturday, right? So love for me was showing up. It was like, yeah, yeah, stop kissing me, just do the laundry. And we also are temperamentally different, you know. I guess what I am. Kind of high-headed, you know, talkative, easy to get mad.

It's like, what? And Brock wants to talk rationally. And I'm like, rational. Rational, don't come to me with sense. I'm angry. Don't come to me with your three bullet-foil. You better get out of here and let me cool down. I want to hear none of that reason.

I believe more of us have to be honest about the work that it takes to build a life with another person. To me, it doesn't seem like it's that controversial. I mean, what's controversial is somebody of your stature being dishonest about it. That's exactly right. It's like, oh, hashtag, relationship goals. And I'm like, I was mad at him in that picture.

Not only that. That's what I'm saying. So what for you is romantic now? What do you consider romantic? Romantic is, I love when my husband plans something, right? Because it is hard to plan when you are the president or the former president, right? So if he can surprise me with all,

and he gets so pleased with himself when he pulls something off, right? And our 30th honeymoon was probably the latest romantic thing that he did because he recreated our honeymoon, which was driving along the Pacific coast. When we were married, first married, we started in San Francisco, rented a car, drove all the way down through Big Sur, stopped and saw the red woods and and went through Santa Barbara, and then ended in LA. And it was just the two of us.

And he created that. Now, it wasn't just the two of us, because we were in a motorcade, and we had our agents. And three cars behind. They're like 12 people in the back, you know, trying to hide. It's changed. But everyone was excited. All of his agents were like,

you, we're going on a walk next to him. And it's like, and they were trying to lay back in all our aids. We traveled with a crowd, you know? But he planned it. It was romantic. It was very, very romantic. It was very, very sweet.

Oprah and I will be right back in a minute. very sweet. Oprah and I will be right back in a minute. You're listening to the audible original Michelle Obama The Light podcast. Like what you're hearing? Listen to more from Michelle Obama between episodes on audible. Sign up for a free audible trial and get your copy of the

Light We Carry audiobook. For now, enjoy listening to the Light Podcast. So, in becoming, you told us so much about, you know, the years when he was away and those years, I think, when you were feeling badly in the relationship, in the marriage, has it changed now that he's home? I would say, all the wives are like, mm, mm.

Has it changed? Yeah. Is it a different kind of husband now than he was? Yeah. All those years with all the pressure? What is it? No, I think he's been pretty consistent. You know, I've grown.

I've changed. I've learned that, you know, over these years that over these years that I have to make me happy. It goes back to the lessons from my father. He is not responsible for my happiness. He loves me, he cares about me, but most of my unhappiness had to do with choices I was making. I had to be the perfect mother. I had to do everything right.

I had to hold down a job and make sure that the eye was holding myself to a standard that was stressful for me. And also impossible. And absolutely impossible. Because you can have it all... Perhaps, but you can't have it all at the same time. Let us say that again.

You can have it. You can have it all, but not at the same time. You really can't. That whole, no, it is impossible, especially if you want to be a good parent and spend any time with your kids. It's a tough balancing act. I really appreciate it in the light we carry when you talked about how you recognized

and Barack recognized that you couldn't be everything for each other. And that's why your kitchen table of friends is so important. And as you say, has helped to take the pressure off of your marriage. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Tell us about that kitchen table. You know, all right, I'm going to tell the pressure off of your marriage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Tell us about that kitchen table.

You know, all right, I'm gonna tell the story of when you met my kitchen table. Can I tell that story? It's not in the book, but Oprah kindly hosted my 50th birthday party. Not just 50th? It was your 50th, not just your 50th. Oh, see, I wasn't gonna tell that story.

I didn't know I could tell that story. Oh, okay. So you said, yes, before you knew I was't gonna tell this or I didn't know I could tell this. Oh, okay. So you said yes before you knew I was talking about. No, I know you can, I want you to talk about what I was gonna, I was gonna, a moment ago, say Barack Obama, president of the United States called me Yeah, right. To ask me, would I host and at the end of the conversation,

he says, make sure you note that I'm the one making this call. I'm the one that told you to arrange all this. So I'm the one that made the call. I didn't have an assistant call you. So when you were telling that story, I thought, oh, that's why he said that. That's why he said that.

I'm the one that's making this call. So we're coming to stay with you graciously hosting us and you said, bring your friends. And I was like, OK, and she's like, how many people? And I said, well, it's like 12? 12? And you're like, what'd you say? You were like, you don't have 12 good friends.

I did. I was like, I do. I do. I'm not trying to stop the date. I'm not trying to stop the date. Good friends. I do. And Oprah was like, I do, I'm not trying to stand the day. Well, good friends. I do. And Oprah's like, I got gale.

And what I said, we say, we say, we're 12 good friends with Jesus and the disciples. But only person I know. But then you met. And then what of them betrayed them? OK. But then you met my kitchen table. And then what have I been betrayed? Okay. But then you met my kitchen table. Yes, sir.

And you saw that I collected and keep my friends throughout life. So I got my roommate from college. I've got my best friend from law school. I've got the moms who helped me in Chicago. We were like a unit. We raised our kids together. Some of those kids are here tonight. They were like my children.

I had a whole new set of mom friends and women in Washington, D.C. who could understand that life. A couple of who were married to people in Baroque administration administration, and when you're in that world, you need someone who understands like that plate. They were my ride or dies. So I tend to collect people throughout life and keep them because it's like different people bring different things to my life. But the bottom line is that I call it my kitchen table.

Because the kitchen table in our home was always the place where we felt safe. We'd come in as little kids from the woes of the playground and the given take of the neighborhood, complaining about a teacher or someone fairness, and you could always let it out at the kitchen table. You felt safe and seen. It was probably the first table where I felt seen by my mother and father who loved to hear our stories

and our voices, but you always got rejuvenated at that table. You could let out the insults and the slits and yell and scream and get that out your system so that you could get yourself together and go back out there like you had some sense. So my kitchen table is that for me. And not there are so many different aspects to my life.

I've had so many different aspects to my life. You know, I've had so many different facets from motherhoods, professionalism, and on and on and on that table has just gotten bigger and bigger. I love the beginning of the book. You have this poem by Alberto Rios that says, if someone in your family tree was trouble, a hundred were not. The bad do not win, not finally, no matter how loud they are, we simply would not be here if that were so. A simple truth.

So that brings us to the phrase that has become synonymous with your name when they go low, we go high. We go high. And you say that going high usually involves taking a pause before you react to anything, correct? Absolutely. Okay. So what has happened recently in your life or in the country that you had to step back and say, let me pause and try to get to high? Watching the Georgia Senate, just watching that before it was decided, watching that turn into a runoff, where are we in the world that that even had to happen, you know? That Barack had to go down there and literally preach to the people.

Yes. They're like, don't do this. What are y'all doing? Yeah. So, yeah, look, there's plenty in the world that makes me mad and wait a minute Look in the chest of this. Yes. Yeah, you go high immediately. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no Okay, now that's what the kitchen table is for remember I go sit at my kitchen table and we have a go-low session We just go-low.

We're all picking ourselves off the floor. I used to do this thing with my staff in the White House where before I would give a speech or do an interview, we mock answer the questions because they knew I needed to get the low out, you know. So I would have- So we could- So we better know in that. I needed to get the low out. You know? So I would have, I would have, I would have, I would have, I would have, I would have, I would have, I would have, I would have, I would have,

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I would have, I would have, I would have, would have, I would have, I would have, I would have, I would have, would have, I would have, I would have, would have, I would have, I would have, I would have, I would have,. But sometimes, so going high doesn't mean you don't feel the rage, right? It doesn't mean that you're not supposed to feel. It doesn't mean that you are complacent in unfairness and inequality. It doesn't mean you don't do the work. It's just the choice of your approach. And going high is a choice.

It's a choice that I think is most mature. It has, it's a long-term choice. And it's not you just wallowing in the gut feeling of what you feel that, that at that moment. That's self-indulgent. And when you are a leader with a platform, we can't afford to indulge our innermost ugly, right? We have a responsibility to go high,

because we are living, we've lived through leadership that goes low, and no one feels good in that. It doesn't lead to solutions, it just doesn't work. So I answer, I end the book by answering the question that everybody has been asking me, still go high, Michelle, now, really, really? And my answer is yes, absolutely. We always go high.

We go high. But we do the work. And that's what I want young people to know that, you know, the light we carry is in all of us. You know, we have to learn how to build it up in ourselves first. We can't look to other people to build it up in us because sometimes they don't have it in them. You know, And once we build it up, we have to protect it, protect it with a good kitchen table, keeping people in, but also letting people go when they're not serving you for the best.

They're losing oxygen. When they're losing oxygen, you have to protect yourself from the poison that's out there. You've got to get out of other people's mirrors, right? And then once you've buttressed yourself and you've got it together, then it's our responsibility to share that light. That's the going high part. So as you think about interacting, speaking out, texting, using social media, think about

the light you carry. Lead with that light because light begets light. Hope begets hope. Going high begets more of it. That's why we do it. Thank you for reminding us of the light we carry Michelle Obama. The YouTube We're free! Look, there will be days where you'll want to go low and just sit in it. Just do for a while. And believe me, I have been there. But I've learned that if you spend too much time down there, you'll end up asking yourself, what am I doing to myself? What am I doing to my

light? That's why we're talking about going high and building lasting relationships. It's why in other episodes we've talked about the power of small. The importance of building your kitchen table of friends, of navigating relationships and building of friends, of navigating relationships, and building meaningful partnerships, of the joyful, maddening journey of raising children, and so much more. There's no right or wrong way to do any of this. We're all just trying to find our way. Hopefully the conversations in this podcast have given you some

tools and practices and attitudes that will help clear a path through the darkness and into the light. It is wonderful to have a friend like Oprah to explore all of this with. As well as Ellen DeGeneres, Conan O'Brien, Gail King, Hoda Kotby, David Letterman, Elizabeth Alexander, and Tyler Perry throughout this season. Because believe it or not, this is actually our final episode. So I just want to say thank you. It has meant so much to have you with me on this journey. And I hope you can find something useful from it in your journey. I hope there's something in here that gives you comfort or a new perspective and more than

anything, I hope this helped you recognize your own light so that you can share it with others. Thank you so much everybody. I'll catch up with you again soon sometime. Until then, take care. This has been a higher ground and audible original, produced by higher ground and little everywhere, executive produced by Dan Fehrman and Moop Demohan for higher ground and Jane

Marie for Little Everywhere, Audible Executive Producers Zola Masheriki and Nick DiAngelo, Audible Co-producers Keith Wooten and Glenn Pogue, Produced by Mike Richter, with additional production by Joyce Sanford, Dan Galuci, Nancy Golembisky, and Lisa Polak, with production support from Andrew Epen, Jenna Levin, and Julia Murray, location recording by Jody Elf. Special thanks to Melissa Winter, Jill Van Lokerin, Crystal Carson, Alex May Ceeley, Haley Ewing, Marone Highly-Messkel, Sierra Tyler,

Carl Ray, and Jerry Radway, Meredith Koop, Sarah Corbett, Tyler Lechtonberg, and Usra Najum. The theme song is unstoppable by Sia. The closing song is lovely day by Bill Whitters. Audible head of U.S. content Rachel Giazza, head of Audible Studios Zola Masheriki, copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio LLC. Sound recording copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Sound recording copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Voice over by Novina Carmel.

This episode was recorded live at the YouTube theater in Los Angeles. When someone else instead of me Always seems to know the way Then I look at you And the world