Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach

Episode Date: September 20, 2023

Author Glennon Doyle and retired US soccer player Abby Wambach, who had drastically different upbringings around the kitchen and food, share how they’ve nonetheless found middle ground in their marriage. Abby shares her mama’s hearty Pasta for Thousands recipe, a beautiful mélange of pizza, pasta, and lasagna.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's me, Shell Norris, and I'd like to let listeners know that today's episode includes discussions about eating disorders and addiction. Please take care while listening. Thanks so much. The kitchen has been the holy place, the boxing ring, the place where we have worked out and struggled with our shit the most. Because food symbolizes everything.

It's nourishment, it's punishment, it's whether you trust your body and the world in each other, enough it all gets played out right at the counter in the sink. Welcome to your Mama's Kitchen, the podcast that explores how we're shaped as adults by the kitchens we grew up in as kids. I'm Michele Norris. The kitchen is the emotional heartbeat of our homes, so many important things happen there. Meals, memories, laughter, and sometimes tough stuff. All of it simmers inside us us forever and shapes who we become in

interesting and sometimes surprising ways. Today's episode is about finding common ground in that sacred space called the kitchen. When people come together under one roof, they have to learn how to share space in the bedroom, in the bathroom, in the closet, and yes, in the kitchen, where we learn quite a lot about our partners in life. Their habits, their power dynamics, even their attitudes around food that were carried over from childhood.

Building a shared kitchen is difficult, especially if partners grew up with very different ideas and experiences around food. Today we hear from a happily married couple who figured out how to make all that work. Glennon Doyle and Abby Wombok. Abby is a retired professional star soccer player and icon, six-time winner of the U.S. soccer athlete of the year, two-time Olympic gold medalist, and a standout player on the US Women's National Soccer Team. Glenin is an outspoken, blogger, author, and activist

with multiple books on the New York Times bestseller list, including Untamed and Love Warrior. The couple married in 2017, and both have been very public about past addictions and struggles with food. They now co-parent Glenin's three children from her previous marriage in their sunny Southern California home. You can hear how symbiotic Abby and Glenin are.

There's this playful intimacy in the way they finish each other's sentences and operate almost like a cohesive unit. But you might be surprised to hear about how different their lives were growing up in very different households. Their mama's respective kitchens could not have been more different. What did you absorb from them? Eat everything. Eat nothing.

The first voice you heard is Abby. The second is Glennon. Oh my goodness. Literally. Totally opposite messages. [♪ Music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music I'm delighted to be talking to you. And not as delighted as I am. I am looking forward to this. So this is a podcast where we often begin with that simple question. Tell me about your mama's kitchen. So I want both of you to, in your mind, go back close your eyes if you need to go back

there and tell us about the kitchen of your youth and how it influences the person you are today. You stay. So I'm the youngest of seven kids and my parents from the time I was alive till even now live in the same house, in the same kitchen. And I can see from the 80s, I was born in 1980, I know the specific like wallpaper right now,

it's different, they've remodeled one time since then. You know, the wood walls. Yes, the paneling. Paneling. Yeah, there was paneling. It was in the room right next to the kitchen. And, you know, my mom, she had to feed nine mouths throughout the whole of my life.

And so she was just always there. Always in the kitchen, there's like a little TV, a little small TV that's like tucked up under under the cabinets where she'll just lean against the countertops and just be watching her TV. We have like a side door and a front door to the house and the door that everybody walks into walks straight into the kitchen. And so it's the gathering place. It's where people congregate. And when there was food on the stove, or she was in the middle of some sort of kitchen,

it was get out of the kitchen. Ghost, make yourself scarce. Get outta here. I gotta do my work. And then when it's ready, you guys can come back. Just lots of love. My mother definitely showed and expressed her love for us through acts of service and cooking was by far and a weight like the number one acts of service. And did you eat in shifts?

No, we ate as a family. Every single night it was like clockwork, six o'clock. Everybody's in the house at the dinner table. You got to get yourself a drink. I mean, and back when I was growing up, it was a tall glass of whole milk. Oh, milk. Gross. Gross. Look, at least it wasn't buttermilk. Yeah, that's true.

There's always a worse option, I guess, you're right. And honestly, all of us were going in so many different directions throughout our days that the dinner table, everybody came to you every night. It was like my safe place. It was the place where I felt like, because I was the youngest and I just wanted to be around everybody.

And everybody felt like they had more important things to do. So this moment where we got together, it was real safety for me, for sure. Glennan, did you feel that in your kitchen also? Yes, so it could not be more different for me because my parents both worked. So Abby's mom stayed home with her flock. My parents were both educators, yes, teachers,

and then they became guidance counselors and then principals. So I remember visually the same thing, lots of brown, lots of peeling wallpaper, brown plastic tile on the floor. I vividly remember a little quote that was framed on the wall. And it just said, no woman ever shot a man while he was doing the dishes. And I always thought, that's, that's rough. This is my mom's way of making sure my dad did the dishes. But the kitchen was not safe would not be the word that I would pick because I

had eating disorder that started at age 10. So everything around kitchens and food safe would not have been the right word for. Which causes no problems at all in our marriage. Zero. We're going to get to that in a minute because that's a bridge that you guys have figured out how to cross. Yeah. You know, the kitchen is a place where a lot of stuff happens, not just food. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the kitchen is a place where a lot of stuff happens, not just food. How has that space influenced you in interesting or surprising ways? For me, there was a lot of love in my family when it came to kitchens and food. The feeling was scarcity.

Hmm. So, was there was a lot of control and scarcity. Like, my parents were both teachers, so it wasn't that we didn't have enough money, but there wasn't like ever a lot of extra. So I remember, there would be some cereal in the pantry, but it wasn't the good cereal, like the good cereal, if anyone brought home a good cereal,

then somebody would hide it. So, a good cereal would be like cap and crunch or? Not even. No, the good cereal in my family was Cracklin' Oat-Brand. I know. It's not even that good but had like a little sugar in it. I wish we had a picture because Abby you just made a face like really?

Cracklin' Oat-Brand? That was the good cereal though. Okay. They were healthy. Fruity Pebbles was my cereal. Well, I would have been best friends with you because I picked my friends based on their pantry. I did for real. I know that sounds like a joke, but it's not like I would pick my friends based on whether their parents had twinkies and frosted flakes and, you know, sugary

cereals. And then when we went to their house after school, I would just live in their pantry. We would have been besties for sure. Besties. Yeah. So you said that there's scarcity. How does that like inform the way that you think about kitchens now? Well, an opposite way is like your family had a lot of indulgence

around food. And my family had a lot of control and scarcity about food. And so I think we picked each other because we wanted that in our lives. You wanted more control and I wanted more indulgence. But you know how like a couple years into marriage, the thing you picked the other person for, that's the thing that's like so annoying

and you do this suddenly. picked the other person for, that's the thing that's like so annoying. So that's like a lot of people are challenged, I think, is remembering that we needed that part of each other. Yeah. Because the kitchen and food has been the holy place, the boxing ring, the place where we have worked out and struggled with our shit the most, because food symbolizes everything. It's nourishment, it's punishment, it's whether you trust your body and the world and each other enough, it all gets played out right at the counter and the sink. And I think like, you know, my family has had a tendency to overindulge in ways that now I see has made some of them a little unhealthy, right? And then when you compound that with me being a

professional athlete, food and eating was part of my job, right? Like I had to consume some days, sometimes, 6,000 calories so that I wouldn't lose actual muscle mass or weight to maintain a weight. I would have to eat what I expended that day, right? And so when Glennon and I met, it was like soon after I retired and I wanted to like figure out a normal way of being. So that's why it was very enticing that there was a... I was like, oh, I've got this girl.

You just don't eat. So she had the control that you were looking for. We're just going to put up guardrails around the kitchen. Yes. And I'll help you figure this out. I guess I just didn't trust myself. I didn't have like an off switch. And so that's been really interesting to navigate.

But I think that Glenn and I are both moving towards the middle in a way of operating, in a way of thinking about consumption, food, and stuff. But when I listen to you talk, it sounds like two people who are holding onto a rope. It's not necessarily tug-of-rope, because that sounds like you're pulling in opposite directions. But you're trying to climb that rope, you know, and figure out where's the middle here? Where's the comfortable place? Yeah. figure out where's the middle here? Where's the comfortable place? Yeah, I think maybe the comfortable place is joy, like having joy around the kitchen and food. Our oldest is 20 now, but when he was four,

I had him in a story time at the library and the librarian was going through rooms in the house to talk about the book they were reading and she said, you know, what's the bedroom for? And all the kids said sleeping and then you know, what's the bedroom for? And all the kids said sleeping. And then she said, what's the kitchen for? And all the kids said eating, but chase y'all dancing. And I thought that's so sweet because we do have dance parties in the kitchen. But he also doesn't know that people eat.

That sounds like a family I want to be a part of though. We know. They're a decent kitchen. that's a good space. I also love your analogy with the rope, but I want to take it one step further because I think what Glennon and I have learned is that in order for us to do well, not just in our marriage, but in our pursuit of joy and love with food and kitchens and all of that, Glennon is climbing her own rope. And I am climbing my own rope. So it's not that we are in any opposition. It's just like, we're both on the wall. Like, hey, you're doing okay. Like because there's an individuality. It's a very personal thing. And yes,

it does affect when you're in a marriage, the way that you operate around food and in a kitchen and all of that stuff matters, but we both have to get to a place of deep understanding for our own selves. You're listening to the A original, your mom is kitchen. Like what you're hearing, the next episode is available now, exclusively from Audible. You can listen to new episodes on Audible two weeks before you can hear them anywhere else. It feels like both women are on the way to figuring this out. They understand the key to building a strong bond is trust, but trust is earned.

And when two strong personalities come together, to women who were used to running things on their own, conflicts around control are unavoidable. Abby was probably resting in the middle of the day, which just to me is just an aggression. It's an act of just. Wait, you have something against naps? I was taking a 30 minute lay down in the middle of the day. Not anymore. Now I'm learning.

Wait, not anymore. She doesn't take naps anymore. Or you don't react to the naps in the way that you use it. I'm committed to naps. Right, you join her in the naps in the way that you use it. Exactly. I'm committed to naps. Right now, join her in the naps. But I was raised by a football coach. OK. I remember being in my living room right outside the kitchen.

And if I heard the gravel rocks, that would mean my dad was coming home. I would stand up and try to look busy. So my brain might know resting is important to be a human. But my body body thinks if I sit down, this whole shit's going to fall apart. So when my partner would rest in the middle of the day, my mind might say, that's okay. People can rest, but my body was throwing dishes around, like trying to wake her up. I would be like pushing dishes around the kitchen, like making as much noise as

possible. She would turn to me and say, are you having a fight with me without me? And I would say, yes, that's what I'm doing in my mind. I'm having a fight with you without you. And I am winning. I said something to her one day, like, don't you have things to do? We have like a whole list to do. How are you going to get it done? And she said something like, you know, when you don't trust me, when you try to control me, it, it tells me that you don't trust me. And that really hurts me because I trust you deeply. And I think that

conversation was the first time I started, yeah, I started thinking about, oh, right. I don't trust you. I mean, if it makes you feel any better, I don't trust myself either, which is why I'm constantly controlling myself. But we only do control things we don't trust. So that really completely relates to food with me. When I'm making rules for myself about food or staying out of the

kitchen because I can't trust myself around food, that means I don't trust my body to want what it wants, eat what it needs, stop when it's ready, I don't trust my body to become whatever it's supposed to be, as opposed to controlling it and trying to keep it small because that's the messages that I heard forever. I as opposed to controlling it and trying to keep it small because that's the message that I heard forever. I think it all feeling comfortable in the kitchen all has to do with trusting yourself. Right? Yeah, I mean, one of our little dances that we did for a long time was I would just eat whatever I wanted and what I was doing was I was triggering her because the truth is when you have little human beings around you that you're raising, they're 10, 13, 8 when

I came into the family, they're watching you. They're watching everything. They're stalking you basically. They're still stalkers. They're just like looking at everything that you do. And that's in some ways more important than anything you can say to a child. It's like showing them how you live. And that was a conversation we had early on

that was really important for me that my behaviors matter. So you said something interesting. You said that you had young people who were watching you and you had to be careful about how you order your steps because you know they're absorbing everything they see in here. You were once young people who were watching your mommas in the kitchen.

What did you absorb from them? Eat everything. Eat nothing. Oh my goodness. Literally. Totally opposite messages. Completely opposite messages. Eat everything.

And then when there's dessert, eat that. We have dessert directly after dinner. And Glennon, what was that dinner table like for you? What were you seeing as a young kid? And what did you absorb? I think it was very important to my family to make sure that no one was overeating. And so we would not have a lot of food on the table.

We would have like that Mrs. Buds chicken pot pie or something like a meatloaf or something that my mom put together. And then there would be a plate with four slices of sandwich bread and then like a thing of microwave broccoli and never did we have dessert. Now was that because of scarcity, financial scarcity, or was it because your parents were into fitness or were trying to watch their waistlines? Not being indulgent with food was very important to both of my parents. It was called healthy in the 80s, but I think now it would be called eating disorder. The 80s were, you know, just diet coke and...

Oh, diet coke or tab. See, I'm older than you and my mom's aric tab and fresca. Tab with a cigarette. Yeah, so the money was always kind of right there too. Every Friday night we would go to pizza. There was one pizza in water. When we first got together and Abby ordered an appetizer at dinner. Michelle, I was like, who does this woman think she is? Rockefeller? Like, we don't order appetizers. And did you say something about it? Did you just silently save? No, I think at first I thought, oh my God,

this is so amazing. Oh, this is like what I need in my life. She would order more than one meal. She would order whatever she wanted, she'd order to serve. I think I knew in my gut this kind of joy and freedom around food meant more joy and freedom all over the place.

And that is what Abby has brought to my life. So I think that I knew exactly what I needed to be a more full human being and experience life more beautifully than I was before. It's just doesn't come without challenges. You know, we always think like the way that most of us become freer is to break whatever rule our parents told us around whatever it is like money, food. Yeah, I just got to a point my recovery where I've actually gained a bunch of weight and that is so good and also so terrifying because my little self is

breaking a rule from my kitchen. And nobody made that rule maliciously. It's just like And nobody made that rule maliciously. It's just like every generation, hopefully it's a little bit freer. So tell me about the kitchen that you have created in your family now. What's important in terms of what you do in the kitchen, what you serve in the kitchen, and when you moved from Florida to California,

you had a clean slate, you had a chance to design the kitchen. And when you moved from Florida to California, you had a clean slate. You had a chance to design the kitchen of your dreams. What did it look like and what happens later? Yeah. So we're in a little beach town. And so when you walk upstairs, there's windows all across the wall that you walk up and see the ocean. And then in the kitchen, it's very open. There's a big island, you know, first thing in the morning, there's a open. There's a big island. First thing in the morning, there's a couple teenagers who are trying to avoid eye contact with us because we are very peppy in the morning.

And they are not. So they become more peppy as the day goes on, but they are usually rummaging through the fridge. They make bagels, they make smoothies, they get fruit, they get cereal. It's one of my favorite things to just sit there and get work done, just sitting there while Glenin or somebody else is in the kitchen making some food or vice versa.

Glenin will often, because we have this open concept on the top floor, we've got the kitchen that separates the living room with a dining room table, long table, people are watching TV, friends, you know, the show friends is always on in the background when we have our teenagers home. They're watching friends. They are.

It's like, how weird is that? That it's like, we'll never outrun that show. No, it's her comfort show. And then she'll stop it and point out things that she's like, I cannot believe you all, or like, there's things in that show. It's wonderful. And there's also some things that are so problematic.

Problematic. And she can't believe it. And she's like, you guys were laughing to this. It's hard to explain. And there's always music. One thing that Abby does whenever we're like, that missed each other all day, is that she will turn on

music, you know, when the five o'clock or whatever, when the house is kind of starting to slow down and everybody's coming upstairs from their homework and dinner is starting and she'll stop me and like make me dance with her. To what kind of music, what are you playing? It's usually like, I mean, we're good lesbians, Michelle. So it's usually like the indigo girls or Brandi Carlisle or it's everything you would expect. But yeah, that's always, it's a moment that I always get annoyed at first because I feel like she's trying to get me out of my head and I feel annoyed for a second and then I feel totally sunk in and she helps me just let go of the day and be home now with her

and the kids. And that's always a kitchen moment. So you have this interesting style of parenting and I love the way you described it because with the kids' father, he's active in your life and you say that it's almost like you parent like a braid And I love that because I can visualize that this sort of three strands coming together And Craig lives in black for best. So he's at our kitchen all the time. Yeah. Oh Yeah, oh, he lives just around the corner. Well, that's convenient That it makes that braid easy to maintain. Yeah

Really Michelle? We have said that wherever the kids are, because we don't really have like a custody, we just decide together what, where they're gonna be based on everyone's schedule, but they really are wherever the snacks are better that week. It's true. Like where are the snacks are better? Yeah, because we're so close that they just run back and forth.

So if we've just gone to Glasgow, like they're with us. And if they're not with us, you can bet that Craig just run back and forth. So if we've just gone to Glasgow, like, they're with us. And if they're not with us, you can bet that Craig just did a run. I really loved the image of parenting, like a braid, with Glenin and Abby living around the corner from Glenin's ex-husband Craig. It hit home for me because my own parents lived down the street from each other after they divorced when I was young.

There's something efficient about that and it was a real gift to have both parents remain active in my life after their divorce. It's a real gift for any kid who goes through divorce. I wondered if Glenin, Abby, and Craig were also weaving different cultures together since Craig's mother is Japanese. I wanted to know if that too was part of that beautiful image

of a three-stranded braid. Craig is half Japanese. He doesn't present as Japanese looking. We grew up together. Craig and I went to high school together, so I know his life forever. And he is of a generation that really assimilation, complete assimilation was the goal.

The goal was to be American. And to be American that meant assimilating into majority culture, which meant majority white culture. Yes. And so his goal was to be like everybody else, which meant assimilate majority white culture. Yes. And so his goal was to be like everybody else, which meant assimilate into white culture. So now we have these children, our oldest is completely Japanese, presented.

Like he's half, he's a quarter Japanese, but he looks completely Japanese. Knowing his Japanese culture is utmost important to him. Knowing his Japanese culture is utmost important to him. So like many families, we are in this interesting generational situation where I think Craig kinda talks to our son like, well, what do you mean you wanna know all of this and it's important to you

and you feel most at home with other Japanese kids or other kids of Asian heritage. And I think our son is kind of like, why don't you care? It's just really interesting. I was a white mom who spent a lot of his childhood out in the world aligning myself with social justice issues and anti-racism issues and never brought that home to him.

Never even thought to really work on connecting him with his Japanese heritage because the because would have to be its own episode, because the whiteness in me just saw him as a white kid. It's stunning to me and it's something that we are uncovering together. For instance, for his birthday, he took us to a Korean restaurant that none of us had ever been to. It is very, very important to him, and he has had to do most of it on his own. Adults are supposed to be guides and role models for kids, but here's the thing about

parenthood. Sometimes, the kids teach the parents important lessons, and that extends into adulthood, as relationships evolve between grownups and their aging parents. Abby and Glennon have been very honest about their addictions and their eating disorders, and yet both, through all that honesty, I've managed to maintain very close relationships with their mothers, and they try to make that a part of their current California kitchen through visits, through phone calls, and through shared recipes. Keep listening because Adi has a treat for us.

So about 15 years ago, give or take, for the holidays, my mom had all of her recipes printed out and then put into a binder inside the, what are those things called? The plastic sleeve. The plastic sleeve. And then gave them, she had like 15 of these made up for friends and family for her. She made her own cookbook.

She made her own cookbook and it says recipes from home, I think is what it says. You know, it was, it was one of the most special things to me because I was at the time learning how to cook and figuring out my own recipes, but needing to call her for like the old school family favorites. And so there's just one dish that she has made my whole life. You can imagine when friends come over or family comes over, extended family comes over, you've got 20, sometimes 30 people there. And so there's this one dish that she made and still makes today, and I make today, called pasta for thousands. And it's a very simple, easy thing to do. I wouldn't say that it's healthy by any means, but it's good, but it can feed the masses

and it's like an easier lasagna, essentially. So can you tell me just a little bit about it? Is it layered or is it more like a ziti? Like you just kind of mix it all up and tap it with cheese. So it is layered. So let me just tell you, so you get two large jars of ragu spaghetti or we just do our choice of pasta sauce. Two pounds of medium shells and the medium is important because you could get large, but then it's just too big.

A half a pound of Italian sausage, a half a pound of ground beef. And if you want all sausage, then you just do full pound of sausage. It's your choice. A cup of sour cream. This is also optional, but I always use it. A small package of sliced pepperoni, three cups of shredded mozzarella cheese, and one package of sliced, sardinto provolone cheese, and then Parmesan. Basically vegan. Yeah. You would have to perhaps have a vegan option if you had some vegan guests at the table.

And essentially you just cook the meat, you cook the shells, and then you put the sauce in a pan, you add the meat, you let it simmer for 10 minutes, so you get the meat and the sauce all together. And then a huge nine by 12 or like you go to the store, you can even double this recipe, go to the store and get those one of the big foil tins. The big foil tins.

And you just start layering it. So you put a cup of sauce on the bottom, then you put half of the shells in pan, you cover that with the sauce, and then you put the provolone cheese, and it's important to get the sargento because sargento has thicker provolone slices. At the store? That's why.

Yeah. And you layer the provolone on top. Not shredded. Flat provolone. Yes, flat deli, the deli slices. Then you get the pepperoni on the top of the provolone, then you sprinkle it with a bunch of parmesan cheese. Wait, where did the sour cream come in?

Just you wait. Just you wait. And then you get the parmesan and then half of the mozzarella. And then you dot it just you wait. And then you get the permission and then half of the mozzarella. And then you dot it with sour cream. Oh, okay. All right, I was waiting for the sour cream. Yeah, you add the remaining shells. Then you put some more Parmesan cheese and mozzarella.

And then you cover with the remaining sauce. And then you bake it. And then right at the end, you put more mozzarella. It's amazing. I've sent you the recipe. You can add it to your. Okay, I'm gonna, you know, I sometimes have to cook for 20, 30 people.

I'm adding this to your repertoire. I'm telling you, and by the way, it's better the next day. So you serve it, people love it. Because it's basically like a piece of pizza in your face, like without eating like- Well, it's pizza, it's spaghetti, it's lasagna, it's all of it. Yes. Kind of all at once. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Well, it's pizza, it's spaghetti, it's lasagna, it's all of it. Yeah. Yes.

Kind of all at once. Yeah, and so it's lovely. Kids love it too. Yeah, it's easy to make and then also it keeps really well. And so like on days on days on end, you can just be going back to that well for lunch and it tastes just as good sometimes. And you know what's really sweet?

Sometimes she'll call her mom in the middle of making something. Every time. And she acts like she doesn't know something. She's like, I need to call my mom and ask her for this. But it's right there in the recipe. And it's so sweet because they act this thing out. Nana pretends that Abby doesn't know it. Abby pretends that she needs to know it.

Nana tells her the thing to do. You know, they've had their struggles in their relationship and it's this beautiful like, oh, we can return to this mother tongue that we have with each other, that is uncomplicated and is loved to each other. And it always warms my heart because I'm like, I know she knows how to do this.

Neutral ground. I'm also curious because these recipes are 15 years old and my mom evolves, right? And so she sometimes finds like new, like the Fettuccini Alfredo recipe that our kids ask for for every single one of their birthdays. She makes her own Alfredo sauce, which is a cup of butter,

a cup of Parmesan cheese and whole whipped milk. And it is excellent. But sometimes, did you know that she sprinkled some garlic salt on there? I did not know that. See, this is not in the recipe. So I'm always, you know that a good cook never puts everything that's in the recipe down.

That seems like something Donna would do. She would use some never used something else. So yours is always better. Like everybody else's. That's just basic kitchen wisdom. That's good. No, that is always better. It is always better.

And that pisses me off. It is. It is always better. It is. Because she's got some little secret, you know, in my family, we call it something, something, you know, that they just throw in there, that they're just never going to write it down. But there's, my never tastes like her is because she holds back that little something. There's a something, something like that.

Well I have love talking to you. Anytime. Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us. I had so much fun talking to Glennan and Abby and hearing about their beautiful life together. I learned so much about how they've perfected the art of meeting in the middle. How it should never feel like a tug of war, but actually two separate people climbing their own rope in their own way at their own pace on the same mountain. Now, don't forget to check out Abby's mom's recipe for pasta for thousands on our website

at yourmomaskitchen.com or you can find it on my Instagram page. That way you can cook up a comforting meal that can feed your entire house and maybe your entire neighborhood. I mean, the recipe does say pasta for a thousand, so it's food for a crowd. The way we see food as adults now is largely informed by the way our parents or our caretakers behaved in the kitchen. Abby and Glennan said, their kids are like little stalkers.

And that's so true. That's the word they use, little stalkers. And that's so true. That's the word they use, little stalkers. Little people watch how the adults in their lives eat, how they treat food, and by extension, how they treat their own bodies, or how they treat other people who drift in and out of that space. At a certain point in our lives, we make the decision to feed into or break from the habits that we grew up with.

That decision becomes even more evident or more complicated when we begin to share a kitchen with a partner, partner who comes in with their own menu of experiences and habits and memories. And as we learned from Abby and Glenin, trust is key to a happy kitchen. So to his candor, good food and good music. Maybe a little dancing.

Okay, maybe more than a little dancing. How about a whole lot of dancing? Here's defining a healthy and happy space in all of our kitchens. Special thanks this week to Melissa Bear with say what media and clean cuts in Washington, DC. Thanks so much for joining me today on your mama's kitchen. I'm Michelle Norris. See you next week. Hmm. This has been a higher ground and audible original, produced by Higher Ground Studios. Producers for your Mama's Kitchen are Natalie Rin and Sonia Tan.

Sound design and engineering from Andrew Epen and Roy Baum. Production support from Angel Carreras and Julia Murray. Higher Ground Audio's editorial assistants are Jenna Levin and Camilla Therticus. Executive producers for Higher Ground are Nick White, Mukde Mohan, Dan Fierman and Michelle Norris. Executive producers for Audible are Nick White, Mukde Mohan, Dan Firman, and Michelle Norris. Executive producers for Audible are Zola Masheriki, Nick DiAngelo, and Ann Hepperman.

This show's closing song is 504 by the Soul Rebels. Special thanks to Joe Paulson, Melissa Bear, and Angela Paluso. Head of Audible Studios, Zola Masheriki, Chief Content Officer, Rachel Guiazza. Paluso, head of Audible Studios, Zola Masheriki, chief content officer Rachel Giazza. Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio LLC Sound recording copyright 2023 by Higher Ground