Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - Lena Waithe

Episode Date: June 5, 2024

Award-winning screenwriter and funny person Lena Waithe takes us back to her fast-food filled childhood in the Southside of Chicago. We’ll hear about what it was like to live in a house with three generations of women and about her grandmother’s dining table, which plays a big part in an award-winning episode that Lena wrote for Master of None. Plus, we hear why Chicken and Dumplings is the ultimate comfort meal.Lena Waithe is a comedian, actor, writer and screenwriter. She was the first black woman to win an Emmy for Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series for her Thanksgiving episode on Netflix’s Master of None. She created The Chi, which she currently produces. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Wendy's Small Frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment. And not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh Canadian dairy. It's also refreshingly cheap. Just 99 cents until July 14th. It's a treat for you and your wallet. I think those scenes in the kitchen with myself and my mom, I love the ones where it's just she and I in the kitchen gathering plates or cups or whatever and having those private conversations. I think there's just a, it brings a sense of comfort. And for some reason, a kitchen feels like a safe space.

Welcome to Your Mama's Kitchen, the podcast that explores how the kitchens we grew up in as kids shape who we become as adults. I'm Michelle Norris, and I've got quite a treat for you today because we're joined by the actor, comedian, producer, publisher, and screenwriter Lena Weitz. She's made quite a name for herself in Hollywood with her cutting edge creativity and a sharp sense of humor. She wrote and produced some notable shows like Bones and Dear White People, but many people first saw her on screen playing the straight-faced best friend Denise on the multiple

award-winning Netflix show Master of None. She even made history on that show, becoming the first black woman to win an Emmy for outstanding writing for a comedy series. This was for her work on the show's Thanksgiving episode that was loosely based on her real life experience coming out to her mom.

We're going to dig into that in this episode. Now recently she's been working on a show she created called The Shy. It's like a coming of age drama mixed in with a gritty urban operetta sprinkled with both pathos she's been working on a show she created called The Shy. It's like a coming of age drama mixed in with a gritty urban operetta sprinkled with both pathos and laughter. And as the name suggests, it's based on her hometown of Chicago. The Shy is coming back for its

seventh season on Showtime and Paramount+. In this episode, we hear about Lena's Chicago story, what it was like growing up on the South Side, living in her grandma's house with her mom and her sister, how watching stories fueled her own dream of becoming a writer, how watching the OJ trial and the verdict fostered her understanding of the complexities of race, how she turned her own coming out story into a groundbreaking Hollywood hit and why she will defend her assertion that chicken and dumplings is the best comfort food of all time. Once you listen to this episode,

you might just agree. All that's coming up. Lena, so glad you're with us. So happy to be with you. I feel like I had to hound you to get you to say yes, because originally you said, I don't know about my mama's kitchen. We didn't cook that much. That's the only reason why I said that. That was not because I, of course, I want to talk to you. I just wanted to make sure.

Well, something had to have happened. Something had to have happened in that kitchen because everybody has a kitchen and you got to eat. This is true. So tell me what you can about your mama's kitchen, which was also your grandmama's kitchen, because you grew up in a generational household. Correct. Yeah, that's the thing.

It was, it technically was my grandmother's home and her kitchen. But I think like any grandmother's house, her house is the family's house. And her daughter moved back in with her, with her two daughters. And so it was our house. I never felt like I was staying in a home that wasn't my own, which I think is a true testament to grandma's homes all over the world. But I think that might be why my mom didn't cook in that kitchen a ton,

because it was technically her mother's kitchen. But also my mom just wasn't super into cooking. It just wasn't her jam. And for my grandmother, because she was older, she enjoyed cooking, but not every night. Like she was just sort of, she was a mover and a shaker and but she's from Arkansas. So she knows how to cook. And she would cook. That's why I gave you the chicken and dumplings, which I don't even have a recipe for because like a southern grandmother, she didn't have it written down.

But when she did cook, it was amazing. It was this great treat because her cooking was so, just by taste, by feel, by energy. And we were, you know, my mom was a single mom. And so we did a lot of fast food. And being in Chicago, there was plenty of it. And so that was a big thing of like, on Fridays or like Thursdays, we have like pizza on this day we have like go to barbecue spot on this day we go to this.

So we would eat in the kitchen, but it would oftentimes be food that we would get from places and my grandmother also liked, like having food delivered or eating out. She loved going to the Olive Garden. She loved going to this Mexican spot called Pepe's because I think a part of her was like, I shouldn't have to cook anymore. Sharing that. Yes, exactly. So it was a little bit like my grandmother not wanting to cook and my mom just being

a different, she was a different generation and was trying to keep it fast and move quickly. And so I think she was grateful for Subway and grateful for Checkers, which was a burger spot. My grandmother really loved Burger King. We were awesome. Yo, what can we quickly grab that's good? And she also, my grandmother was a perfect audience for commercials, for the Red Lobster commercials, the Olive Garden commercials,

the Chili's commercials, whatever they were advertising, she was like, we gotta go. We gotta go do the soup and salad. We gotta go do this. We gotta do, they having a special here. So that's really what- And was she taking advantage of that senior discount? Yes, of course. That's what I'm saying.

That's, I was like, yo, Michelle, I want to talk to you, but like, no, we were, it was about what are we ordering? You know what I'm saying? And, but, but I think it's a big reason why I'm not a big cook. Like I don't, it's something that wasn't really passed down, but I could do it. There's little things I can do in the kitchen. And it's one of those things that I wish I could do, which is partly, I think, for Marcus Graham, Boomerang, fantasy, wishing

I could make a lady a really fly meal. That's my bullshit. There's still time for that. Okay. You can figure that out. I mean, we'll see. I'm cool with chefs. I love chefs, too.

Kwame, I'm cool with. Melissa King, like, I watched Top Chef. I used to watch cooking shows all the time as a kid, too. And I think there was always desire to want to do it, but it's a certain kind of person. It takes patience. It takes time management. It takes a lot of things to be good at cooking in the kitchen. And you have to want to clean up also.

Oh, that is something I really don't want to do. And that's probably why your grandma's like, I'm done with this. Exactly. Was she getting, was there any with this. Exactly. Let's order. Exactly. Was she getting, was there any Harold's chicken in there? There was, I mean, but we weren't like huge on that. We weren't, we were like, there's this place called Lim's. Um, that we love to barbecue. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was a big spot we really loved. And we really love Pepe's Mexican spot, which is just like, I always say if like, if black people make Mexican food, that's how it would taste. And I still sometimes. Okay, now I am intrigued. Yo, it's like, this is just like, I always say if like, if black people make Mexican food, that's how it would taste. And I still sometimes- Okay, now I am intrigued. Yo, it's like, this is my shit. Like when I go to Chicago, it's like, it's that. But also we used to do like White Castle.

We used to do like checkers. That was what we were about. That's why I was just like, you're going to get the real today. You're going to learn all about my diet when I was coming up. But you ate in the kitchen. So paint me a picture. We did. If you went to your Chicago neighborhood, South Side, West Side.

South Side. Go to the South Side. Paint me a picture of the house. You walk in the house. You go in the kitchen. What's it look like? Okay. So it's an old school house where you know how the awning has like a letter on it for

the last name. Yeah. So that was a big H for Hall, which is a double name. Our grandmother's maiden name is Hall, and then she married a Hall. So we always tell people like, no, it's not that kind of situation, not kissing cousins, but it was just one of those things.

So Hall is very much like, we love that last name for a lot of reasons. So there was always an H on the awning when you come up, and it's just like this picturesque home. There's a beautiful lawn in front. There's a backyard. And the kitchen had these green and white tile. So it's like an old, it is an old house. And then also those, they're not like metal,

but like bronze things you hang on the wall. There's ones of fish, ones of cut. Oh, they're gelatin molds. Yeah, exactly. But we never used them for that. They just hung on the walls. They were like literally there for decoration because she never used them for what they were supposed to on the walls. They were like literally there for decoration, because she never used them for what they

were supposed to be used for. It was more like just decoration. Obviously, an old clock on the wall. There was a small TV in the corner, a circular table with four chairs around it, really big chairs, and then there was a big freezer, just literally just to hold meats and stuff. Because my grandma would go to Moo and Oink, which is a big spot in Chicago. Oh my goodness, I hadn't thought about Moo and Oink in a long time. Come on, Moo and Oink.

She would go there and get all kinds of meat and stuff like that and put it in this big freezer because we had a fridge and you have a freezer. And that's how you know it's a black household up in there. You got a freezer full of meat in the kitchen as well as the fridge. And an old, old stove. I think she eventually replaced that stove, but like, yeah, she had to, because it was an old stove.

It was, a lot of stuff was green, like green. Green, green, green. Everything was harvest gold and avocado green. Yeah, and like creams, but it was kind of like yellow because it was like old. Like, so it was like, you knew at one point it was maybe white, but now it was sort of this sort of like yellow color because of just all the grease and time and whatnot.

And then we, of course, we had a microwave in there as well because, you know, you're going to heat up some leftovers in that house if you need to. And yeah, and it was just like, it really was a great kitchen. And there is a picture of me, okay, I'll take a picture of it for you, like of me sitting in one of the chairs as a young kid and like a kid chair so I can obviously sit up and reach the table. And my mom putting a bib around my neck.

So it really was this great, homey type of kitchen. And that's where my, it was this hallway from the kitchen to my grandmother's bedroom. And she would just like walk between, it was like her bedroom to like watch her stories and then the kitchen to grab something out of the fridge. I can't believe you just said stories. Come on.

For people who don't understand, some people call them soap operas. Nah, stories. But in the community, everybody calls them stories. My stories. And I never know where that came from. I don't know either. What is that? What is the, where does that from. I don't know either. What is that? What is the, where does that begin?

I wish I knew. I wish I knew where that started. They're talking days of our lives and all my kids, all my children, what they call all my kids. I prefer all my kids. That's the thing. It was cool growing up in, I call it an old school house, meaning a house that hadn't been redecorated since the 70s.

But that felt very normal to me and probably a very interesting mind game for my mom because that's the house she grew up in. And so for her, it probably felt very, I don't know if nostalgic is the word, but it probably felt like she was living in sort of a time warp in a way. And then for my sister and I, it was just, oh, this is okay. This is our house. This is the crib. So it's a very interesting energy.

So you weren't cooking a lot in that kitchen, but you were eating in the kitchen. Yeah. We all know that kitchens are a place where a lot of things happen. So for sure. Was that the place where you had the big family discussions? Was that the place where people argued? Is it the place where you played cards or other kinds of games? What else happened in your kitchen that shaped who you are today?

Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting because my grandmother was very much, you know, that neighborhood was like a community. So they had block club meetings. I don't know if people know about that, but like your block, you guys gather and talk about what's going on, that kind of stuff. And she would be the host sometimes. It would take turns, you know, but I remember when our home was the spot of the block club meeting. She also was a big poker player. So poker nights and stuff would happen a lot at the house,

but that sometimes would happen in the dining room, not so much the kitchen. But what was great about the kitchen was I do remember, because a lot of conversations would happen in my grandmother's bedroom, which was like definitely a hub for sure, which is kind of funny. Like she'd be sitting in her bed and like people would just

be kind of hanging around. Did not feel weird at all. It just felt very natural. But in the kitchen, I remember when the O.J. Simpson trial happened, I'm in there with my mom, my grandmother, and my aunt, my mom's sister. And so that really took up a lot of conversation in our home. Were they watching the trial? Oh, are watching the trial day after day after day? Oh, are you kidding? My grandmother, like, I just remember coming home from school every day, and it was just on.

For my grandmother, it was a really big thing. It was a big thing. Hence why I touch on it in the Thanksgiving episode. Well, one, obviously, because we're going back in time and we're dealing with that. And of course, we're sitting around a Thanksgiving table, down at the table, but obviously, I remember it very vividly,

the conversations that were happening between the black women in my house. And of course, my aunt would come over a lot. And so that would be the huddle. It'd be my grandmother and her two grown daughters talking. And then me being way, like, this young sitting at the table, just ear hustling and not understanding a lot of what's being said, but can remember

what was being said. And I just remember it being a real big topic with them and just learning so much about the dynamics of interracial dating and like what that was and what that meant. And obviously my grandmother being from the South and now me really understanding the significance of that. Because, you know, I just only see my grandmother

in Chicago, I'd never even been to the South and where she was from. So, and she moved to Chicago when she was 17. So for her, I think her lens was very much, I want a win this time. It's interesting you say that because OJ Simpson just died. Yes, yes, yes, yeah.

In the spring. Really, yeah. And it dredged up, you know, a whole lot of stuff. And also this, something that has now become accepted as fact that black America was supporting OJ Simpson. And I think that there may be a misread of that situation and that were black people always supporting OJ Simpson or was it that the criminal justice system

itself was on trial? Right, right. Yes, now stepping back from it. And I mean, and also I really love that documentary that Ezra did so beautifully. I think so OJ Simpson run for his life. I really don't want to get the title wrong, but that's what I think the art of documentary

is supposed to do is to give us perspective, but also to give us a story from every single side. I think it helps me to understand my grandmother and my mom and my aunt better. And I really have empathy for where they must have been at that time. I can't imagine being a grown person at that time. You know, I mean, even, but I remember being a kid in school and my teacher stopped class to play the verdict Really? Yeah. Yeah, they they class stopped and you were all able to watch the verdict. No, we didn't watch it

It was she left you she went to go watch it. No, no, we were in the class by the way This was just our particular class. Mm-hmm. Mrs. Smith I'll never forget like so I don't know what's going on the rest of the school, but it was radio she had on the radio and she had been following it, black woman, my teacher, and played it in the class. And I would never forget, we were so young. I think I was like, was I in the sixth grade or seventh grade? We heard the word acquitted and we didn't know what that meant.

So that's where I learned what the word acquitted meant that day. Because we were like, what does acquitted mean? Oh yeah, because it was a racially diverse school, shoot middle school in Evanston. And so there were some black kids and there were some white kids. And it was so, I mean, Michelle, if you could have had a camera on us,

like talk about how kids are so affected by their household. The black kids cheered and the white kids were quiet. This is after your family had moved to Evanston. So you were attending a diverse school at the school. Yeah, yep, yep, yep. And were attending a diverse school at the school. Yeah, yep, yep, yep. And there was a division right down the line in the classroom. Yeah.

That was America. That was. It's so crazy because being a kid in that moment and obviously looking back at it, I mean, it's just such a part of our history and such a lesson for all of us. But those are core memories for me. When Lena Waithe wrote a TV episode about her coming out story with her mom, she didn't tell her mom.

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That's drinkag1.com slash ymk. Check it out. That's drinkag1.com slash YMK. Check it out. You mentioned the Thanksgiving episode. It was on Master of None. And you won an Emmy for outstanding writing in a comedy series in 2017 for that. And it was based on your experience of a friendship that you had. And over a period of time, moving from, I guess, middle school into adulthood,

coming out to your mom. Yeah. First to your friend, then to yourself, then to your mom. Yes. And we got to see your kitchen in that episode, because so much of it happens. Angela Bassett plays your mother. Yes. And we got to see your kitchen in that episode because so much of it happens. Angela Bassett plays your mother. Yes, beautifully. In a beautifully taciturn way.

She did a good job. Very few people can talk through their teeth in the way that Angela Bassett can. And so we got to see the kitchen. Why did you decide to frame that episode in The Kitchen? I think we knew we wanted to tell the story over time because in talking about it to Aziz and the writers, I would say, I said, look, this is a process. This is, yes, it's a conversation that takes place, but it's a conversation that's a long time coming.

And so we really wanted to show the evolution of a person preparing to come out to their parent, in my case. And honestly, it was Aziz's brother, a niece, who was like, what if we frame it around Thanksgiving? And so every Thanksgiving Thanksgiving we keep landing. And I was like, oh, that's really great. I was like, I like that idea because for us to be, for it to be centered around food, around tradition, around family, and it just really worked.

And also we were, yes, my grandmother was a host of many Thanksgiving's as you can imagine, cause she's, she's got the house, you know, and people just would come. And so we didn't play that part of it, because our house was definitely a little more crowded than what we showed on the Thanksgiving episode, because that was enough, all those people at that table

trying to not laugh and get all the different lines. But it was important to show how disarming a dinner table can be, and how comfortable one can be when you're eating and sometimes drinking. Yeah, I wasn't drinking, but my aunt and mom and grandmother were. And so it just, you're a little bit more relaxed.

And so I think those scenes in the kitchen with myself and my mom, I love the ones where it's just she and I in the kitchen gathering plates or cups or whatever and having those private conversations. I think there's just a, it brings a sense of comfort. And for some reason, a kitchen feels like a safe space. And so that's why immediately when I thought about Thanksgiving and just the cooking of

it all and the preparing and the sitting around, it just opened it up for myself to have these conversations that you just ordinarily don't have if you're sitting, you know, in the living room for some reason. I love the aunt, I must say. Oh yes, Kim Whitley. Yeah. Big love. I loved her character. I've watched that episode and I feel as I've watched it over time, and because I have listened to my own kids

in a similar situation, I was wondering if you were writing it in some way for your mother. It's interesting because people, when I talk about it, people ask, did you talk to your mom before you went into it to write it? Did you? I did not, I did not.

And I think the reason why I didn't is because I didn't want her memory to mix with mine. So it was important that I told the story from, yes, my point of view, but I never wanted to cheapen her character, or her. Not just her character, who she was, who she is. Because I think, honestly, I didn't even realize it then, but I was really writing it for myself. And it was very internal. I was going back into memories. Obviously, they're coming up now about the whole OJ of it all.

I was going into that kitchen, that time, and those moments of me watching music videos of a guy who's singing, but I'm looking at the women in the back. And I just really went back into my own memory. But I really was clear, what I learned, what I know about writing is that both people in a scene, if you're talking about two people in a scene, it can be more people, you know, obviously there's multiple people in the scene,

certain things given, but for my mom and I, I said we both have to be right, always, because that's the only way this will feel human. And I think sometimes people want their opinion or what they think or their point of view to ring louder. And I knew, because obviously I had to write Catherine's dialogue, my mom's dialogue. So I had to step, it sounds crazy, but I have to step into her shoes to write her dialogue.

Which is a hard thing to do as a daughter to step into your mother's shoes. Oh yeah, it's hard. But I was able to, as Pollyanna as it sounds, you can't have a true understanding of someone until you've had to speak on their behalf. And by the way, I'm pulling from what she was actually saying to me in that conversation, like make no mistake, I'm not like making things up. But when she said, I don't want life to be harder for you. Obviously I heard that at some point when we were talking, the real version of it. And then I'm trying to write it and then act it out. And then trying to write it and then act it out. Like for some reason I heard it clearer when I'm sitting in a hotel room in London writing

that than when I heard it the first time. So when you heard it the first time, did it feel judgmental when you heard it as a writer coming out of Catherine, the character that you were creating, did it sound more protective? The first time around, I wasn't able to hear it. It didn't sound judgmental. It just sort of... I was being dismissive of it. Because it's a part of me that feels like, life is hard anyway. What is me being straight gonna make my life much easier?

That was me at the time maybe being defensive or frustrated. So I wasn't really listening. And I think because I was also going back into my memory, I always, what I told Aziz was like, my mom isn't like super religious, but she does care about keeping up with the Joneses. And that's a religion of its own. And so when I wrote into the action line, this is why Angela Bassett did so great, I said like after I say it out loud, because I did come out in a restaurant, I came out

in a diner. I didn't want to be in a public place. I was so scared. So me saying that, I put it out there, she looks around to see who's heard, if anybody heard. And she does this and she does do that. She does it. She kind of sits back and looks. She's so great.

Like she really, and I think that's such a, it's a quiet moment of story. Because in that moment, she cares more about, did anybody hear? Then she does like, oh, let me connect here. Now of course, now we buy that back at the end of the episode where she really looks her daughter in the eye and takes her hand and pulls her in close. Because again, I want to show this is a journey, this takes time. And so I think even for me though, the person coming out, it also takes time to get to a place of not judging those that don't want

to accept you right away. And that's why I think me having to be a writer is like, we don't, I can't judge any of these characters, or that'll show up in the writing. And I want it to be good. And there's a reason why you care about, even for a quote unquote villain in a dark night, you know, right? It's like there's a reason why Heath Ledger is such a beautiful performance, even though he's the villain. And I think as a writer, you have to say, hey, hold on, how did this person come to be? And so I always have to remind myself that my mom was born in 1953. I was born in 1984. So those are two completely different eras.

So I can't expect my mom, now of course I'm talking to you as an adult and you know, you're gonna be turning 40 now. But I can't expect my mom to be where I am with it. And I think that was something I just didn't have the emotional intelligence to say to myself at the time. And so I think that's why the relationship can be so fraught because I'm just frustrated that like, just accept it, just be cool.

That was me at the time. And now that's when, just accept it, just be cool. That was me at the time. And now that's when I was writing it, I'm thinking to myself, oh man, I can't believe how much I expected from her. In that moment, I didn't have a lot of empathy. I didn't have a lot of compassion. I didn't have a lot of patience. And I only really discovered that and having to sit down and retell it. And so it really ended up being a healing thing for me.

And I was able to understand my mom better because I had to write dialogue on her behalf and not make her seem like a villain and make myself the hero. That wouldn't have done anything for us. Did you show it to her? Did she have a private screening of this with or without you before it aired? No, no. On television.

I'd never do that. That's not, no. I mean, Aziz was shorted to people. He was like, shorted to episode to folks. Cause he was just really excited about it. And that was other things. Wait, so she watched it with the rest of the world? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. Yeah. And how quickly did your phone ring? You know, she wasn't mad about it. I think the one thing she said was, is that what I said? You know, because I think memory is a tricky thing. You don't, it also, it's a very, it must also been a tough thing for a person to hear your kid come out the closet. So she might've also just been, you kind of

don't remember what you say or what you've said or what the first thing that comes out of your mouth. And it's also Rashomon. I mean, two people can be in the same place. You and I might remember this conversation slightly differently. Absolutely. Absolutely. Exactly. So, but that man, she wasn't even being accusatory. She was just like, is that what I said? Is that what I did? And I was like, yeah.

You know? But I think the good thing was we were in a much better place at that point. And so it wasn't like she was still struggling with it. I don't think she was embarrassed by it. I think it was odd for her for me to be so embraced and so beloved as a person who was openly queer. I think that was just a crazy thing for her. But also, I think it was crazy for a lot of people.

Because people don't understand, I never had a coming out to the public. Did not do that. When I came into this industry, I came in as myself. And-hmm. And I didn't realize that that was really, that was a unique thing. An industry that didn't always allow people to fully be themselves. Exactly. Exactly. And so, and maybe because I had come out to my mom, like, that was the only person I really cared about necessarily, like, me coming out to.

And I had done that in my life. So, you know, when I sat with Aziz, for the character Denise, she was supposed to be straight. But because I was so myself, he said, this is more interesting. So let's just do this. Let's have her be queer. And let's, yeah, we'll do, we'll change it. And I was like, okay.

I don't think Aziz and I even understood how significant that would be for the character to be a more of a reflection." And I was like, okay. I don't think Aziz and I even understood how significant that would be for the character to be a more of a reflection of who I was and how I walked through the world. ["I'm Not a Man"] You said something, you said you're almost 40. So let's just say you have packed a lot into life. You know, in just four decades, because

I forget that you're not even 40 yet. I'm coming. It's coming. May 17th. And you are, we see it on The Chi. We see it in your film, Queen and Slim. We see it in all of your projects. We see it now.

And you've started a literary imprint. You have a certain confidence as a writer. And when I was reading about you, I thought, well, this has been there all along because you were talking about how you would watch TV. Your grandma was watching stories and TV was always on in your house. Many people watch TV and say, I want to do what they do. I want to be on TV. I want to be an actor.

You were watching TV and saying, I want to write for TV. I can write these shows. Early on, you knew you wanted to be an actor. You were watching TV and saying, I want to write for TV. I can write these shows. Early on, you knew you wanted to be a writer. Yeah. And I think what really moved me, obviously, I loved the cast of these shows that I watched and I loved clearly. I was, I mean, come on, a different world. I loved every single character. I loved every face I saw. But I was more intrigued by what they were saying. And in some way, because I don't come from a Hollywood family, I don't have anyone in the industry, but I knew that, okay, these people are thinking these things.

This is a show, this is entertainment, and I didn't know what a television writer necessarily was, but I knew there were, because I would't know what a television writer necessarily was, but I knew there was, because I would see the credits, I would see names across the screen. So, I just thought to myself, who are those people? Who are these people that are making this magic happen on my TV screen? And I used to see Susan Fales Hill all the time. I used to see that name all the time.

And then of course, fast forward to her and I meeting through Gina Prince-Bythewood. And then Susan obviously was the showrunner for 20s, those first two seasons. But that comes from me seeing that name, you know? And then seeing Ashonda Rhimes' name, seeing Erin Sorkin's name, seeing Debbie Allen's name, who I was just with this past Sunday.

I would just see these names, and I didn't even know what they looked like. So you also center the kitchen in many of your shows, particularly in The Chi. Stuff is always happening in the kitchen. Oh, yes. Yes. Always happening in the kitchen. That's a really great observation. And there's a certain Chicago element to a lot of these kitchens. These kitchens, and especially now that I host the show

and I listen to people describe kitchens all the time, I find when I'm watching shows, I'm looking at kitchens in a different way because I keep hearing people describe their mama's kitchens. And I realized that a lot of people, it looks too artificial. It looks like someone was trying really hard to make this look like a 1950s era kitchen or they were trying really hard. And in watching The Shy in particular, even though you're seeing kitchens with people of a lot of different stations in life, the fancy kitchen of the driver who lives in downtown

and a big glass building and the folks that are sitting around a kitchen in wooden chairs around a round table, much like the one in your house. How involved are you in that and how much is that inspired by your grandmama's kitchen where you used to sit and eat takeout food six days a week? True. You know what's interesting? Because I'm a big believer in hiring people that are really good at what they do and then getting out the way.

So it's just, it's me communicating to, you know, line producers, directors, obviously sometimes to actors, but it's me describing what we should see. And so that's really where I can sometimes say, I want the kitchen to feel lived in, or I want the kitchen to feel pristine, meaning people don't cook in it. So it is a thing about, it says a lot about a character and who they are.

Again, thank you, of course, because you're so brilliant. That's such an interesting observation that I didn't even make for myself. The thing about the food in the kitchen is something that I feel like, well, yeah, like what is the kitchen saying about this character? Are they in there all the time? Are they cooking?

And I don't know if I'm giving too much away, but we have a Thanksgiving episode this season of The Chi. It's our first one. Yeah. And I asked if we could call it Thanksgiving as a nod. But you see all these people cooking and in the kitchen, obviously. And there was a big thing that I wanted where I was like, I want to see a black woman's hands cleaning greens in a sink. And we have a beautiful

overhead shot of that. That's such an evocative thing. Because that's an act of love because greens, you can't just bring them home and throw them in the pot. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Takes a while. And that's the thing. That's what my grandmother really would get into it on Thanksgiving. Like she would make chitlins. I'm a big chitlins fan. I know everybody's not a fan. Okay, now you can snatch my soul sister license. Come on. Oh, really?

I probably shouldn't say it on the air, but you know, I just... No, you can say it. It's fine. I'm not judging you. You know I respect you too much to ever snatch any one of your cards. But if you had my grandmother's chitlins, I promise you, you would have... They were great. My grandmother made them really well. And you know, but that was... Again, something you have to take time and clean very carefully. Can't mess with that. No, no, no. She would spend a lot of time cleaning chitlins and collard greens and making, you know, sweet potato pie from scratch. And when she would get in there, she would get

in there. And when she felt like it, it was always a treat. It was always nice. And whenever she asked me if she could make something for me, I would always say, I would always ask for chicken and dumplings, which she made really well and really beautifully and with love. And so, yeah, but... So wait, tell me about these chicken and dumplings, because I love chicken and dumplings. Isn't it the best? I mean, it's like...

It's a bowl of love. Yeah. I don't know what's better than that. And that's the thing, it's like, and it's also something that takes time. It does, because it's like, you gotta really let it simmer and stew for a while, and you gotta make the, obviously the dumplings.

And my grandmother would make those from scratch and pull in the dark pieces of meat only. And it was a very thick base. And I just remember her asking me, what do you want me to make for you? And I was like, you want to make chicken and dumplings? And she was like, OK. And she made them.

And my mom was like, what? Who's making chicken and dumplings? What? And she's like, because Lena asked for it. You changed your plans behind some chicken and dumplings. Oh, I had concert, okay. And she made them and my mom was like, what? Who's making chicken and dumplings? What? And she's like, because Lena asked for it. You changed your plans behind some chicken and dumplings. Oh, I had concert tickets tonight, but maybe I'll just... Let me sit down. Yes.

Because you got to make a big pot of it, obviously. And so the family was like eating on it for like a week, you know? And everybody was like, this is just... And talk about comfort food. You know, you just put some in a bowl, heat it up. You good. You don't. Yeah, it's the ultimate comfort food. It's the best.

Well, chicken and dumplings also is, if you're in the winter, it just, it's like, what do they call it? Ribs sticking food. Yeah, sticks to your ribs. It could ward off any kind of illness because it was kind of like almost, I guess in the Jewish community, they probably say it's close to matzah ball soup, but it's different because the dumplings are heavier. And it's not a brothy, you know say it's close to matzah ball soup, but it's different because the dumplings are heavier. And it's not a brothy, you know, it's not like it's heavy.

But it also is like, how often does one have that? Like, you don't really see it on menus. It's like not... You're right. Now that you're thinking about it, even soul food restaurants don't really serve chicken. I think it's probably because the dumplings don't hold. Right. It's a timing issue.

Yeah, you got to make it fresh and then you let it simmer. It's always good the next day too, you know, after it's been made, because it's sitting and... So everything's better the next day. That's true. That's true. You know, that's the cookbook we're going to write about the show, Better the Next Day, because every recipe we get is better the next day. This is true. This is true.

So you have the chicken and dumplings, but you don't have a chicken and dumpling recipe. I think we can help you out there if you ever want one, if you decide that you all want to make one. My son interviewed my late mother-in-law, she's gone to glory now, but he interviewed her because he loved her chicken and dumplings. Oh wow. And he really almost interrogated her, I want the recipe. Oh come on. And I actually have it in my red folder where I keep all the family recipes where he wrote it down in his little ticky tacky 10 year old writing. Oh my gosh.

Of a chicken and dumpling recipe. But we now as a family cherish that because again, they didn't write stuff down. Right. That's the thing. My grandmother did not have like pieces of paper or books or whatever. She really did cook from feeling, which is that. Yeah. So we, thanks to, and you've met Norris, so thanks to Norris's interrogation.

Thank, yes. We now have And you've met Norris. So thanks to Norris's interrogation, we now have a little culinary anthropology that we can hold onto a family recipe. Nice. That's beautiful. All right. Well, we got to get in the kitchen together at some point. Let's make that happen. Come on.

Show me. Teach me. Always. Anytime. We'll make that happen. I'm so glad you made time for us. I have loved this conversation. Thank you also for giving us a preview of the next season of The Shy. Uh-huh. Only for you.

Okay. Well, and you know, all the people that are listening to this, they're, you know, they're in on it now too. So thank you very much for that. Of course. Lena, it's been a pleasure. Much love. Much love to you. Thank you so much. Lena is a natural born storyteller. Didn't you just love that image of her grandmother's bustling dining room table where everyone convened over food and card games and holiday

meals? The kitchen table is such a sacred space, no matter if it's fancy or well worn around the edges, because it's what happens at the table that counts the most. A place where you're free to be your full self. And as in Lena's case, the place where you can help the rest of the family accept that and eventually celebrate that. It makes sense that Lena came out to her mom over a meal. It makes sense that the kitchens are the centerpiece

of her work as a filmmaker and showrunner in Hollywood. I wouldn't be surprised if you're listening to this episode and thinking of the kitchen tables from your own past, the homework, the traditions, the lazy Susan filled with hot sauce and condiments, the way you kick your siblings under the table or maybe kick yourself these days for not fully appreciating how hard your mama worked to create that loving space. Most of us don't have a TV show

where we can share our kitchen memories with the world, but we can all find ways to embrace the ways our kitchens have shaped us. Figure out how to incorporate the best of that into our lives going forward, and maybe reach back with a thank you or a nod of appreciation for all the people who made that kitchen space special.

Now about the chicken and dumplings that Lena raved about. If you have ever had a steaming hot bowl of dumplings that are puffy and dense floating in a brothy gravy with fat chunks of seasoned chicken, you know why that is her go-to comfort food. If you've never tried chicken and dumplings, hmm, we've got a healing, rib-sticking chicken and dumplings recipe that you will find on my Instagram page at Michelle underscore underscore Norris.

That's two underscores. And you can also find it at our website, yourmamaskitchen.com. We have all the recipes from all the episodes there. And before we go, a reminder, we want to hear from you. Our listeners have been sharing stories about their mama's kitchens, and they're so lovely.

In my mom's mind, a kitchen isn't complete without the spice box, without the masala dabba. So when I served in the Peace Corps in the Dominican Republic for two years, my mom actually sent me off with a temporary waterproof plastic masala dabba that she set up for me to carry. And when I married my husband, whose parents are also South Indian, we have a special place in our new house's kitchen to stack our steel masala dabas together because he has one from his mama's kitchen too. So here's your chance. We're opening up our inbox for you to record yourself and tell us about your mama's recipes, some memories from

your kitchen growing up, or thoughts on some of the stories you've heard on this podcast. Make sure to send us a voice memo at ymk at highergroundproductions.com for a chance for your story and your voice to be featured in a future episode. Make sure to follow us, subscribe, leave a review. Have a great week. See you next time.

And until then, please be bountiful. This has been a Higher Ground and Audible Original produced by Higher Ground Studios. Senior producer Natalie Wren. Producer Sonia Tan. And associate producer Angel Carreras. Sound design and engineering from Andrew Eapen and Roy Baum. Higher Ground Audio's editorial assistants are Jenna Levin and Camila Thurdekus. Executive producers for Higher Ground are Nick White, Muktam Ohan, Dan Fearman, and me, Michelle Norris. Executive producers for Audible are Nick D'Angelo and

Anne Hepperman. The show's closing song is 504 by the Soul Rebels. Editorial and web support from Melissa Baer and Say What Media, our talent booker is Angela Paluso. And special thanks this week to Voice Tracks in Los Angeles and thanks to Clean Cut Studios in Washington, D.C. Chief Content Officer for Audible is Rachel Giazza. And that's it. Goodbye, everybody. Make sure and come back to see what we're serving up next week. Copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio LLC. Sound recording copyright 2024 by Higher Ground