Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - Nicole Avant

Episode Date: April 3, 2024

In this episode, Nicole Avant—daughter of legendary music mogul Clarence Avant—looks back at her bustling childhood kitchen, where prominent Black figures were always stopping by. She’ll tell us about her mother’s snow cookies recipe as well as reflect on the loss of her mother and share tips for consoling someone experiencing deep grief. Nicole Avant is a film producer, author, and former ambassador for the Bahamas. She wrote the critically acclaimed book Think You’ll be Happy: Moving Through Grief with Grit, Grace, and Gratitude. She also produced the documentary The Black Godfather about her father’s illustrious music career. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey friends, it's Kevin Pang from America's Test Kitchen. I want to tell you about our storytelling podcast, Proof. We tell stories like follow the U.S. military's decades-long journey of creating an MRE pizza. We go behind the scenes of the Broadway musical Sweeney Todd to learn just how do the show's infamous pies get made. Every episode is filled with dynamic characters and lots of twists and turns. Check out Proof wherever you find your favorite podcasts. I'm Chris Morocco, Food Director of Bon Appetit and Epicurious, and this is Dinner SOS, a

new podcast from Bon Appetit. On each episode, we'll take a call from a home cook facing a real dinner emergency. Then, I'll work with one of our editors or someone from our amazing test kitchen to try and solve it. Because cooking for the people you love should inspire joy. Without a side of stress. Make sure you're following Dinner S.O.S. wherever you're listening now. She purposely found Black artists like Jacob Lawrence and Artis Lane and Samela Lewis, people that she loved and were really great at their work,

and again, wanted to not only put them on their walls, but then she also wanted to invite people in the home as if it was almost a gallery. Welcome to Your Mama's Kitchen, the podcast where we explore how the kitchens we grew up in as kids shape who we become as adults. I'm Michelle Norris. And today we're gonna spend some time looking back at a very special kitchen.

A place filled not only with great food, but rich conversations about music and creativity and civil rights. A place where a revolving door of prominent black musicians, actors, athletes, and activists were always passing through. It was a spot where folks could work, celebrate, or even rest. This was the kitchen that our guest for today, Nicole Avant, grew up in. Her last name may be familiar because her father was Clarence Avant, the fabulously successful music executive known as the Black Godfather

because he guided the careers of so many superstars, including Quincy Jones, Whitney Houston, Lionel Richie, Pharrell Williams, Terry Lewis, and Jimmy Jam, Snoop Dogg, and Bill Withers. Nicole Avott grew up around power and influence and wound up in an influential role herself as a producer in Hollywood, as the former U.S. ambassador to the Bahamas,

and as the author of the critically acclaimed book, Think You'll Be Happy, Moving Through Grief with Grit, Grace, and Gratitude. The book details what life was like in the wake of her mother's death in a horrific tragedy. Jacqueline Avant was fatally shot by a robber during a home invasion. Nicole's father died two years later, in 2023.

I spoke with Nicole Avon just before the anniversary of her mother's death, and while we do talk about grief in this episode, Nicole brought so much lively energy to this conversation by focusing on the rich, joyous, and vibrant life her mother lived at home. She says that was her mother's enduring message to treasure life's gifts and prioritize the things that bring joy over the bumps in life that well inevitably bring pain. Nicole Avant also talked about her unique childhood surrounded by celebrity, about the lesson she learned about building community, and about things

people should or should not say to someone who is going through deep grieving. Also, we get a recipe for cookies that are so delicious that they should be enjoyed all year long, even though they're officially considered a holiday treat. All that is coming up. Nicole Avent, I am so glad that you took time. You have been traveling all over the country with this new book that you just wrote, Think

You'll Be Happy, moving through grief with grit, grace, and gratitude. Thanks for making time for us. Thank you for having me. I love being here. We always begin these conversations with, tell me about your mama's kitchen. Could you take us inside her life and inside the home in Beverly Hills in that zip code that we all know, 90210? That was your home zip code for your childhood. What was that kitchen like? It was a beautiful kitchen, very orderly and filled with lots of art. I remember saying

to my mom, art in the kitchen. Art, art in the kitchen. Yeah. I said, why do we have art in the kitchen? Every house I went to, they had photos of the children and photos of the dog and everything on the refrigerator. And my mom didn't have any of that. She had, she loved art.

It could be small, it could be large. It didn't matter. She said art made her so happy or it inspired her. So for her, she said, everything starts in the kitchen. Lots of great things happen in the kitchen and lots of important conversations happen in the kitchen. And for her, she wanted to put art in her kitchen because every morning when she got up to make her tea, to make her hot water with lemon, she wanted to look at something

that inspired her and start her day on a positive note. And now I have done the same thing. Now I have art in my kitchen. Oh, you have art in your kitchen too now. Yeah. Ted thinks I'm crazy. He said, why is art in the kitchen? He said the same thing. I said, this is the way I grew up. This is what we're doing. Ted, your husband. Yes, Ted, my husband. He said the same thing you used to say, why are we doing this?

Yeah. Why are we doing this? Why do you have art in the kitchen? I said, because it makes me happy. And I like it and it does inspire me and I move it around sometimes. You know, when I make coffee, I'm looking at one thing. If I'm in there at the refrigerator, something else is facing me and it's great. So did your mom have art on the walls or were these magnets on the refrigerator? She had one. She had it on the walls. I'm walking into the kitchen right now on the right hand side.

Describe it for me since you're walking in the kitchen in your mind. Let us know what you're seeing. Yeah, so you walked in the kitchen. There's a huge, there was a great island right in the middle and the stove top to the left, sorry, the refrigerator to the left, stove top to the right. And then it was beautiful because she had a view into her backyard. So there were these windows that were at the kitchen sink. And so when you went to do the dishes

and when I did my chores, the beauty was, it was like, well, at least I'm looking at a nice pool. There was beautiful landscape but everything around my mom was about beauty. And it never was about the size of a house, the size of an apartment. She always thought no matter what space you have, you can make it as beautiful as you want. You can create beauty anywhere you are.

She always used to say if you could afford one flower, just one, if you even can't afford the bunch, put the flower up. If you can't afford that, you could get a plant. Anything that brings a smile to your face, especially in the kitchen. Because she said if this is where you start your day, it should start with something that inspires you or gives you hope or makes you think about something that brings a smile to your heart. And it was a happy, solid place. But it was interesting how everything took place in that kitchen. Anytime she wanted to correct me, correct my behavior, it was interesting how everything took place in that kitchen. Anytime she wanted to correct me, correct my behavior, it was never in my bedroom. Even if I was in my bedroom,

she'd say, come in here to the kitchen, please. Come into the kitchen and let me talk to you. So the kitchen for me was also a place of, uh-oh, I'm going to get a lecture now. Why was she taking you into the kitchen to fuss at you? I don't know. She just she was I think the most comfortable It was almost as she was acting out a scene because she'd go to the refrigerator Pull out a bottle of water and then look sternly at me and say, you know I didn't like when you did this or your teacher said you did this and blah blah blah And it was always at the kitchen counter And I have no idea what that was about, but- Is it possible that that was her domain?

Yeah. That that's where she really felt like she was in her space? Her power. Her power was in the kitchen because it's where she started her day. It's where she would do her morning prayers. It's where she would look out of that window into her beautiful backyard and thank God that she had a home. Because I would hear her sometimes and I would hear her saying very simply, you know, thank

you Lord for this day and thank you that I could see outside and thank you that I can hear the birds chirping and thank you Lord that I can drive my kids to school. I mean, those were her prayers, always starting with thank you and always about the simple task for the day that she never took for granted. And she said those prayers out loud. Out loud. So you could hear them. I wonder if that was intentional too.

Absolutely. You know, a lot of people pray quietly, but sometimes if you pray out loud, you're living by example. Yes. And she definitely lived by example. Was she a cook in that beautiful, well-appointed kitchen? Was there home cooking going on in that kitchen? Yes, there was home cooking going on.

I just was talking to my girlfriend the other day who, we grew up together, her family's Jewish, so they'd come over for Christmas with us, and they'd have Christmas meals with us. And then during Hanukkah, her mom gave my mom the best recipe for brisket. It was the most delicious brisket. And I remember, and it's so interesting how I just thought of it today, but yeah, my mom could cook.

My dad was more of the experimental cook. He loved Italian food, so he'd go to Italian restaurants and then he'd try to recreate it at home. And he was actually really good. He was really, really good. So he spent time in the kitchen too. He spent time in the kitchen. Shrimp scampi, I remember, because he'd have me peel off, you know,

the shell and the skin, I remember that. And he loved making his pasta and he loved making his chicken parmesan. And he loved experimenting in the kitchen, but it really was the hub of the home. Your family had such an interesting footprint in the world. I'm trying to imagine the kind of people that were gathering at your kitchen table, because your father worked with Smokey Robinson, David Geffen, Suzanne DePauw, Lionel Richie. I mean, I could spend about 10 minutes.

I could gobble up a third of this episode just listing the people. Terry Lewis and Jimmy Jam. I mean, all the people that he worked with reaching back over about, he rode the knife edge of cool for several decades. Yes, he did. Were those people showing up at your kitchen table? All the time. And always at the kitchen.

Yes, always in the kitchen. So what was it like? You come home from school, oh, Lionel Richie's in the kitchen. Sometimes. I remember Jimmy and Terry were there quite a bit when I was in high school. And they were working on the SOS band album. And I remember the song, it was the finest. But I remember Jimmy and Terry in the kitchen quite a bit.

Johnny Gill used to hang out in the kitchen all the time. And everybody did because the kitchen was attached. So off of the kitchen was the living room. The living room was right there and the bar. So everything kind of made an L shape. So when you walked through the living room, there was a teeny bar, very New York style apartment bar, and then it took you right into the kitchen. And

so everyone would kind of just go in a circle and go from the living room into the kitchen, get a drink at the bar, stay in the other side of the living room, and then go back. So it was a revolving door in and out of that kitchen. And it was just, it was great. So your house being the center of all this activity, is that in part because, you know, Hollywood is still a fairly segregated place. It's harder to find a place where people of color can comfortably convene in large numbers. Was it in part because of that? Was it because there were things that were being discussed that people didn't want the world to hear

while you were penning, writing something, composing something? Or was it because it was just such a hip place that it's where everybody wanted to be? The food was good, the drinks were flowing, the music was popping, and that's just where everybody wanted to be. I think it was a combination of a lot of it. My mom was very intentional of creating a very safe, cool place, and she decided it's gonna be my home, where there was a celebration of black culture. So I talk about this great wall that she had,

and it was off of the living room, and it's great photographs of Frederick Douglass and Ida B. Wells and Booker T. Washington, George Washington Carver, you name it, on and on and on, this huge wall. And she purposely found black artists like Jacob Lawrence and Artis Lane and Samela Lewis, people that she loved and were really great at their work. And again, wanted to not only put them on their walls, but then she also wanted to invite people in the home as if it was almost a gallery.

She wasn't showing off. She was saying, look at all this great culture that we have. And she loved her home being a place of celebration, a place of accomplishment. If you're on a bridge, our home was a spot on that bridge that you can then come into and meet other like-minded people who would then help you across the rest of the bridge. It was a way station. Yes.

And she loved creating that space. You could be a politician, athlete, entertainer, artist, whatever it was, her home was so important to her. It really was a way station of goodness, of faith, of love, and really celebration. We had a party there all the time. It was always celebrating somebody. Somebody's hit record, somebody's art gallery opening, someone's running for Senate, someone's running for mayor, someone's running for the president of the United States, whatever it was, it was a celebration of somebody being an activist on purpose. After Hank Aaron broke Baby's record, he's in Atlanta, but the first trip that they came

to LA, they were at my house and my mom introduced him to people in Los Angeles that wanted to meet Hank Aaron. I have a neighbor who I haven't seen in 30, 40 years and she just told somebody, she just told my mom's friend who was at the house, you know, Hank Aaron was at the house and she said, I'm next door with all my white friends and we're all hanging out and having a good time. And she's a teenager. She said, Mr. Avon walked over, he said to my father, you know, Henry Aaron is here at the house. And her father said, Oh my God, he's

a fan. He goes, Yeah, but I need to bring him for your children to meet him. They need to see Hank Aaron. They need to meet him, but they need to see him in the flesh. So I love these that people have these memories of it wasn't just, oh, a bunch of people who happen to be famous were at your house. These were great people who were very on purpose about making life better for as many people as possible. And they happen to be famous and they use their fame really for good. I listened to that story about Hank Aaron.

And when you said your dad went to the neighbor and said, Henry Aaron is there, I had a jolt of recognition because my father always called him Henry Aaron also. And my father's from Birmingham, Alabama. And so there are certain people who out of respect always called him Henry Aaron. That's right. Well, we should say though that everything that happened in the house was not just raising champagne glasses. With so many civil rights leaders coming to the house, sitting at the kitchen table, sitting

in the living room, talking, strategizing, going over things that have happened, sometimes licking their wounds, literally, are there things that you saw that help us understand some aspect of that life's work that most people don't get to see. I remember, I think it was Harry Belafonte one time just sitting in the living room and just sighing, just, ugh, you know, I had these conversations today and I'm exhausted, I am exhausted of the strategy. Strategizing is tiring, by the way.

It is tiring. It is exhausting, but they all, they had a sigh. But what I loved was it was a home that people felt safe enough to come and be vulnerable. So if someone needed to cry, they were going to cry. If someone needed to scream about something in Washington or trying to pass a bill and it didn't go through, they can come to the Avon House and they can let it all out. They can kick, they can scream, they could cry. They would laugh about it later, but they never felt alone.

And that is what I took from it later in life as I became a young adult and moved into real adulthood of, oh, right, this is what community means. This is what it means for your friends to really show up for you and for you to show up for other people. Sometimes showing up is you don't even have to say anything. You just have to create the space and listen. Without breaking confidence, did that happen? Did people come and scream and kick and cry? I remember once there was a lot of hollering, not out of fear so much, but out of frustration of just, I'm so tired and how long do we have to go through this?

My dad, I actually remember, I think it was the Muhammad Ali special on ABC. He had set up for a black director and he said he wanted black this, black that, but he always said this, he was trying to, all the cameramen that were ready, that were qualified, all the cameramen, the producers, the engineers, everybody, and at the last minute, somebody else said, no, we're just going to have all the union people, but you can have that one black person. And my dad said, then you don't have a show. I'm not doing it. I'm not opening

the door for an unqualified person. Nobody wants an unqualified person. Why are you assuming that everyone's unqualified? They went to school. They know how to operate a camera. They are engineers. Open the door. And so a lot of that, my father, I would hear his frustration, you know, because he was exhausted after growing up in 1931 in the segregated South in North Carolina. It's exhausting. Yeah. It's exhausting and I love that both my parents still had this reverence for life in general.

They loved being alive. Loved it. Coming up, a few of the things you should never say to someone who's going through deep grieving, and the best way to help someone out who's in pain. That's coming up. Hey folks, now that the novelty of the new year has started to wear off, how are your resolutions doing? You doing okay with those? Well one of mine was to order less takeout and cook more at home, but it's hard to be

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We tell stories like follow the U.S. military's decades-long journey of creating an MRE pizza. We go behind the scenes of the Broadway musical Sweeney Todd to learn just how do the show's infamous pies get made. Every episode is filled with dynamic characters and lots of twists and turns. Check out Proof wherever you find your favorite podcasts. I'm Chris Morocco, food director of Bon Appetit and Epicurious. And this is Dinner SOS, a new podcast from Bon Appetit.

On each episode, we'll take a call from a home cook facing a real dinner emergency. Then I'll work with one of our editors or someone from our amazing test kitchen to try and solve it. Because cooking for the people you love should inspire joy without a side of stress. Make sure you're following Dinner SOS wherever you're listening now.

You have spoken about how you have absorbed some of your mother's personality traits, especially in times of crisis or stress. What lessons or habits of hers have you adopted in life, but most particularly in the way that you run your own house and your own kitchen? I would say I am more structured than I've ever been ever in my life

because she was structured. I mean, I have her day planners. She'd write everything out. She'd look at that day planner the night before. She would put out the outfit that she was going to wear for the next day. Everything was out, the socks, the shoes, the earrings, the necklace. And I always looked at her like, oh, you're so formal. Oh, you're so proper. Oh, you're so proper.

Oh, you're always so structured. And the day she left me, I've never been more structured ever. I put out my clothes the night before. I'm always in my closet now. I'm cleaning out things. I'm organizing things. I became very organized. But in the wake of losing her, all this happened.

All of this happened the day she left. I haven't missed one thing. I had things on my schedule, meetings, board meetings. I was writing this book, everything. I kept going, not in denial that she had left and not in, oh, you know, I have to prove I have something to prove. I'm going to finish all these things. I really wanted to live in a different way. I wanted to

Because I think what it was is it was so instant as if she was struck by lightning. It was so instant That I thought oh my god, it is true. Like, you know at 8.01. I'm texting her six hours later. She's gone so there was a shift in my energy that just subconsciously said, you don't have time to wait for all this stuff. I all of a sudden became Jackie in those ways. And my home, she'd always loved to play music. She loved her Johnny Mathis. She loved very easy, kind music.

So the Commodores, the Spinners, and Johnny Mathis, and Louis Armstrong, and Duke Ellington always in the house. Now I play that music all the time. And I love it because I feel her. And it makes me smile because it made her smile. You know, it's interesting. Sometimes I ask people in talking about their kitchen experiences of their youth, they wind up doing things and they realize, oh my goodness, I'm becoming my mother. You know, I keep the olive oil in the same place that she did, or I find myself tapping the side of the pan like she did.

But it sounds like you have, I don't even have to ask you that. You have really sort of stepped into her space in a way that maybe has helped you move forward. Absolutely. And she was very big on birthdays day that maybe has helped you move forward? Absolutely. And she was very big on birthdays and taking her girlfriends out to lunch or tea. They love to go to tea.

And she never missed one, ever. And she would look at her day planner, you know, throughout the year, it's so-and-so's birthday, so-and-so's birthday, and she'd mark all of them down. So she passed on December 1st, my friend Sarah's birthday is February 5th. And I remember calling her in January. And I said, listen, for your birthday next month. And she's thinking, no, no, no, no, no, deal with your grief, deal with your trauma. I'm here to serve you. Don't think about my birthday. Please don't. And I said, actually, I've never been like this before. I really, really want to

celebrate you and have a celebration and let's do it. And we did. And it was great to plan. And again, it was something that I had watched my mother do and with such purpose and such focus and with such joy. And it's not as if I didn't celebrate my friend's birthdays before, but this time I had a different sense of, there was a different energy and that's what Jackie gave me was celebrate every moment as often as you can and don't wait for the quote unquote big birthday. I'd always say, oh mom, I'll wait. I remember I was 42 and she said, you know, what are you doing this year? I go, I don't know, wait till I'm 45 and you can give me a big birthday.

She still looked at me and she said, are you sure you're going to be here at 45? And I thought, what kind of question is that, mom? How negative is that? She said, negative. I'm just being real. You cannot assume anything about life. There are people getting on the freeway today that plan on coming home for dinner and they're not.

Just something happens. Somebody goes on a bike ride, they have a heart attack, they're 56 years old, perfect health, they're not home. So her point was celebrate and live as fully and as much as you can, but definitely don't pass celebrating someone's birthday. If you love them, celebrate the fact that they were born. That's probably one of the biggest takeaways for me is I no longer wait. I used to have a terrible habit of waiting to be in

the right mood to do something and now it doesn't matter. I want to tell you one thing I got from reading your book. There is a section of the book where you talk about how difficult it was for you and your father when he was still with you to go out into the world and everyone wanted to talk to you about Jackie and everyone wanted to have a long conversation and how difficult that was. And it seemed like you were holding people by the hand and saying, you too will experience loss. You will have friends and family members that experience

loss and here's what to say and what not to say to them. And that really was, you were gently wagging a finger at people, but in a loving way that I think is very useful so that people can figure out how to be a source of comfort as opposed to a burden. Right. And I found myself, I mean, when people would say, you know, of course, my mom's good friends who naturally would say, what happened? Tell me what happened.

Or family members, of course, they deserve that. Their world was just shaken. But acquaintances or strangers or everybody, I felt as if I was a newscaster. I felt that I was replaying the whole story for their comfort. And I'm thinking, aren't I supposed to be the one who's supposed to be comforted right now? And the comforting things, sometimes people would just come up to me and not say a word, but they just put their hand on my back and say, I love you. I'm here for you. I support you. Those were the most comforting moments or

friends showing up. I had my four girlfriends in my kitchen and they had their laptops up. And one of them's cooking. One of them is finding a funeral home. They all were connecting again in the kitchen as women do. And it was so beautiful because they didn't say anything to me. They waited for me to speak. And they were there with their energy and with their bodies saying, we're here for you. We support you. We're not going to let you fall under.

You can go take a nap if you need to. Clarence is going to be fine. We're going to cook for him. And everything is going to be OK. And the going to cook for him, and everything is going to be okay. And the texts that I would receive, some were, oh my God, this vicious, terrible, violent, it was on and on and on and on. And then it would take me back to the vicious, violent, terrible thing.

And then the other texts were, I love you, I'm here for you, I love your family. And the surprising thing, what I noticed, which I now do, and I had never done this before, somebody sent me a condolence note, and she was a matri-data at a restaurant, and she opened with a story of my parents and what she loved about them when they'd come into the tower bar. It made me laugh. I cried, of course, but I laughed. All of a sudden there was a smile on my face and she

described them perfectly. Jackie would walk in and know exactly what table she wanted and ask for her pillow and order her champagne. And your father would walk in grumpy and complaining to the other husband, then why are we even here? And she said, and by the end of the night, everyone was laughing. But what she did was she painted a picture of joy and she painted this picture of life. And so I now try to do that as well. I just had somebody pass and I wrote his wife and I took that of, you know, I'm gonna write about a story that I loved about him

and just write what I loved because we're all guilty of it. I've said so many things that were the wrong thing to say, or I also learned, you know how many times I've said, I know how you feel. And now that I've gone through this, no, because then it cuts the other person off. If I tell you, you know what, I know how you feel, then you don't get the opportunity to tell me how you feel. And I didn't realize I was doing that. None of us do. So that's why I wanted to share in the book, listen, I love you is always the best thing to say, or I'm here for you. I did learn from some of you, the greater the tragedy, the less you say. Because there's really nothing

because everyone says, I don't know what to say. And I've been, I've done this too. And then you ramble ramble ramble. Just don't say anything. Just hug. Show up. A hug is always a good thing. A hug is always a great thing. A hug is a good thing. So when you want something that makes you remember the taste of home, we always leave a recipe with our listeners. What's that thing for you?

My taste of home would be these great Christmas cookies, these very simple, great cookies that my mom, because it reminds me of the holidays, reminds me of prepping for Christmas. My mom loved Christmas so much and her simple winter holiday cookies represented to me, a new door is opening. It's a miracle season. It's a season of joy. It's a season of compassion.

It's a season of hope. And that's why I chose this recipe because I think more than ever now, we all need a little hope. And whether it's Christmas time or not, we need some hope and love and compassion back in the world. So it's, and I would make Christmas time or not. So we need some hope and love and compassion back in the world. So it's, and I would make the cookies with her. And I remember her, she loved these specific cookies. So tell me about the cookies because we could use hope and compassion all throughout the year, not just at the holidays.

Yes, right. I remember her rolling out the dough. She'd sometimes chop in walnuts at times. Her big thing was you had to have the powdered sugar on top of it, just right. And they were simple though. Egg, flour, sugar, this very simple ingredients. I gave a long list, but at the end of the day, it's, but I remember the smell. And I remember that, again, she loved,

it was something about the cookies out of everything she baked, out of everything she cooked. There was a smile on Jackie Avon's face when she made these cookies. There was a spark, like a little sparkle in her eye, I remember. And the interesting thing is that then I married Ted 15 years ago and I meet his daughter, Sarah, and she brings over the same cookies that my mom was making. And so that was a beautiful thing that they connected, you know, a blended

family and my mom and Sarah were making the same Christmas cookies, which was great. And they were easy. It didn't take long and brought a lot of joy into the home. What were these cookies called? She'd call them the snow cookies. The snow cookies. That's what, the snow cookies. I look forward to making the snow cookies Yes, snow cookies.

in my kitchen. Yes. This has been wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you, really appreciate it. All the best to you. Thank you, you as well.

I am so glad Nicole Avant took us into her mother Jacqueline Avant's kitchen. She clearly put a lot of care and thought into her home and really made it a refueling station for folks who gave so much of themselves to the public. I especially love the detail of Jackie hanging art in her kitchen just because it made her happy. What I found even more beautiful was the profound impact of Jacqueline Avon's legacy on Nicole, the way a mother's routines and habits

have become a source of comfort for a grieving daughter and how holding onto a mindset fixed on joy provides a compass for moving forward through deep pain. And Nicole's insights on how to talk with someone who is grieving was a little masterclass on how compassion sometimes requires simplicity and restraint. When words fail, a simple hug can go a long way. And before we go away, a reminder, we want to hear from you.

We want to hear about your mama's kitchens, recipes, memories, the little things that still live in your heart decades later. Maybe thoughts on some of the stories you've heard on this podcast. We want to hear all of it. Make sure to send us a voice memo at ymk at highergroundproductions.com and your voice might just be featured in a future episode. Wouldn't that be great? Thanks for joining us.

Make sure you come back next week because we're always serving up something good here. Until then, be bountiful. Hmm. ["Higher Ground Studios"] This has been a Higher Ground, an Audible Original produced by Higher Ground Studios. Senior Producer Natalie Wren, Producer Sonia Tunn. Additional Production Support by Misha Jones.

Sound Design and Engineering from Andrew Eapen and Ryan Kozlowski. Higher Ground Audios Editorial Assistant is Camilla Thurdukuz. Executive Producers for Higher Ground are Nick White, Mukta Mohan, Dan Fearman, and me, Michelle Norris. Executive producers for Audible are Nick D'Angelo and Anne Hepperman. The show's closing song is 504 by the Soul Rebels. Editorial and web support from Melissa Bear

and Say What Media, talent booker Angela Paluso. Special thanks to the good folks at Clean Cuts in Washington, D.C. Chief Content Officer Rachel Giazza, and that's it. Goodbye, everybody. Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio LLC. Sound recording copyright 2023 by Higher Ground