Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - “Telling Myself That I Was Enough” with Conan O’Brien

Episode Date: April 4, 2023

Conan sits down with Michelle to talk about growing up feeling different and swap hard won lessons about relationships and marriage. Plus: Michelle tells stories of her White House travels, including an unexpected invitation from the Queen that ended in a solid gold room.Find the episode transcript here: audible.com/tlp/episode3 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Light Podcast is presented by Starbucks and into it. It is such a joy to be with you here tonight for this occasion. This is a joy. I'm going to tell you an interesting thing from my perspective. I've played a lot of theaters. I'm used to, I go someplace and everyone's excited to see me. Okay? Everybody in the crowds there because they wanted to see me, okay? Everybody in the crowd's there because they wanted to see me. This is thanks to people. Oh, my parents are here, that's great. This is different.

This is one time occasion where nobody's here to see me and I could not be happier about that. I was getting my makeup done. They put some makeup on me because I'm the widest man in America. And it's not a good thing. And they're putting makeup on me. And the woman said, what do you think? And I said, no one's going to be looking at me tonight.

And I was very happy to be right. I am thrilled and honored to be a part of this tonight for this incredible book, which really spoke to me, the light we carry, and who better to talk to about this book than the esteemed author? Let's get her out here. Ladies and gentlemen, Michelle Obama! I'm a fighter and one bitch, I'm invincible.

Now I'm invincible. Whoo! Conan, I am happy to see you. Thank you. Okay, that's true. We're up to three people right now. Ha, ha, ha. Hey, everyone.

This is Michelle Obama, and welcome to the Light Podcast. No matter how young or how old we are, there's probably something that leaves us feeling like we're out of place. Maybe it's the color of our skin or the shape of our nose. Maybe it's the accent we speak with or the way we worship. Maybe you're a strong, wild black girl who towers above her classmates, like me when I was in high school.

Or maybe you're a gangly, fire-engine, red-haired jokester with unique dance moves. Which leads me to my friend Conan O'Brien. Look, I like to kid him, but there's no one better than Conan to talk with about a topic like this. He's not just funny, he's thoughtful, and perceptive, and he has a huge heart. We've known each other for years now, and our friendship reflects that. When we get together, it's not just superficial small talk. I trust and respect his instincts about people and life generally, and I believe the feelings mutual. That's why we're so comfortable being candid with one another. When we met up for this conversation, the weather was dreadful. It was dreary, cold, and pouring rain. And

yet, like he always does, Conan brought enough light to warm the entire theater, and I have a feeling you'll feel some of that too, so let's get started. This is an absolute joy. It's so nice to see you. You make me happy every time I see you. I think you have that effect on people. We've had some dark times recently in the last couple of years. And you are doing your best, as you say, to get your light out there. And I think that's a noble thing. And thank you very much for doing that. Thank you. Thank you for sharing this experience with me. I told you, we were chatting a little before the show,

and I revealed that this was a surprise to me, and it shouldn't have been, but I read the book, The Light We Carry, and there were so many things in the book that I could relate to. You know what resonated with me is that you talk a lot about growing up, feeling different, feeling other, and a lot of people would first maybe go to a race, but what you're talking about is beyond that, includes that, but goes beyond it, because height was an issue for you.

That was one of the first, you know, most people would think I would talk about race in this chapter of feeling different, or feeling invisible, but I wanted to make sure that the definition of differentness was broad, because so many people feel it. And the first time I felt it was,

because I grew up in a black community, I was, I wasn't other in my home. And that didn't happen until I went away to college, but I was the tall girl. And there, I don't know how many people are the tall girls in the world. Right. So that whole thing, you grow up, nothing fits you. Clothes weren't made for you. Everything. I spent my life tugging on my pants, leave. You leave. I tried to make sure because my parents never let me slouch because they were like, I'm, you know, sit up.

So, and I took dance to make sure that I had decent posture. You know, my mom made all my clothes and it was just like, oh, Lord, please, let's not go to the Butterwick session. She was like, everything. She's like, oh, you don't, I can make that. And I was like, man, no, no. I just want to go to a department store

and get the jeans with the tag, with the glory of Vanderbilt label. I just desperately wanted to be like the girls. I saw the peppy cheerleaders. And I use that. And you shared that you were also. I did too. I never had pants that fit me.

And I can prove it because I had a friend who was an artist and he did a sketch of me when I was in high school that I think they have. And it depicted me. This is long before I'm a famous person or anything. And he includes my pants don't fit. My feet are way too big. Man, your feet.

It was a mess. Look at those feet. And also, when I was a kid growing up, I had stopped laughing. We heard a lift people up. I really think this crowd is bullying me right now, I think. But when I was a kid, I was the only one of my family that had bright orange hair and my mother would cut it in a bowl.

And, but it was just that business of going straight across the head. And so I hated having freckles. Yeah. And I hated having orange hair. And I remember seeing people on TV who had black hair, piled up high, like the guy on Hawaii 50. I'd see people on TV and I go like,

that's how you're supposed to look, not like this. And that's one of the challenges in this world, particularly in this country, when there are such so few definitions of what it can mean to be human, and it's particularly in this country. We fall for it, you know? We fall for the Okido, because if somebody can look the part,

and it's usually their white, their male, they're in a business suit, they act like they have money and power. And that is the definition of, you know, who matters, who belongs, right? And I start with height because so many of us in this country feel other, we feel different. We don't see ourselves reflected anywhere. And I hear from young people

who talk about feeling invisible because they don't see any signs of themselves anywhere in the world. And that is an eerie feeling. I first felt it when I went away to Princeton where at the time when I went, not only were there a handful of black people, but there weren't many women. they're a handful of black people, but there weren't many women. When you were there, it was only 12 years after... That it didn't co-ed. Only 12 years after Princeton had gone co-ed, which is nothing. So I had never been in an environment where there was no sign of me. There were no black people on the walls.

There were no black people in the town. We walked around campus. I was an oddity. And that was the first time I realized there are a whole parts of this country that don't even know I exist. They have never seen somebody like me. So no wonder they're crossing the street

when a black poet comes down the street. They've never seen me before. And so many of us are living in a world where we feel other. That's why it's so important for us to tell our stories, to put more stories of mattering out there. I write about, you know, women now, we've got so many role models. We've got Serena now out there. I never knew. I didn't have a Serena to look up to. Somebody who was beautiful, strong, fast, outspoken,

that wasn't a role model for me. I write about Mindy Kaling now. Rewriting the whole story of who belongs in television. Ali Wong, who's one of my favorite comedians. All of those women, their representation is so important because one of my tools for being visible is that I have to stop measuring myself in other people's mirrors.

You know, I have to get out of their mirrors and start, I had to start telling myself that I was enough. And I try to tell young kids this, you can't wait for somebody else to see you. Because just like at Princeton, they didn't even know I was there. They didn't even know to look for me. So I don't want kids waiting to get their visibility from somebody else. That starts in here.

That's the work of redefining what matters. And my role model for doing that was my father, a man who had every reason to feel invisible. He was a black working class man in segregated Chicago who had MS and walked with crutches. He had every reason to feel small in the world and feel unseen, but my father carried himself with a light, a sense of pride and dignity. Even I tell the story of how sometimes my father would trip and fall.

And there's nothing more frightening than to see the person who is feeding you, literally fall to the ground, a grown man, and the vulnerability that you feel in that time. But my father, he learned, he would have to learn to laugh that off, get up, and keep moving. And so when I start feeling invisible, I think about the light that my father has demonstrated for me the visibility that he's seen from within. And that's, that has been a tool for me throughout my life. I have stopped waiting for people to see me.

I've stopped waiting for there to be a role model in order for me to see and appreciate myself. I have to change the definition of who matters. And that's why representation and storytelling is important. Why do I write these books? I have thoughts in my head. But I think the more stories that I can tell

about a little black girl from the South Side of Chicago who is working class, there's going to be some kid out there that's going to see themselves in the way that I didn't have somebody to see. And it is important for us to put our stories out there. I want little girls like this little beautiful girl right there, yes you.

Yes you to know that your story matters. That I see you with hair like mine and that beautiful smile and you belong. And I want you to practice that message now every day so that you're not like me at 58 wondering am I good enough when I know say that on a list of 10, it's 9. Okay, it's important to me. I have a haircare company encouraging women to accept their natural hair. My mother relaxed my hair when I was seven years old, right? And so for the longest time, I didn't even know what my natural hair pattern was. I didn't know that it was as curly as it is. Making that transition, transitioning from relaxing my

hair, straightening my hair, you know, holding to a European standard and embracing, you know, my natural curls. So in that process, there was a lot of learning. And so, you know, holding to a European standard and embracing, you know, my natural curls. So in that process, there was a lot of learning. And so, you know, there was a time in the workplace where it wasn't acceptable to wear your hair in an afro or to wear braids. And I'm just happy that, you know, at this point in life that we're at a time where a lot of African-American women are accepting their hair. And also, too, that we have legislation that, you know, gives us safe spaces in order

for us to be our natural selves. We'll be right back with more of my discussion with Conan. This episode is brought to you by Starbucks. Every day and every community, moments of kindness are happening. When times are tough, they can be harder to see. But from where we stand, we're able to watch kindness come to life in all shapes and sizes. This is a real story shared by a customer from Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I was feeling a little down on my birthday, so I decided to treat myself to a birthday

drink at Starbucks. And the barista, she was so nice, she helped me pick out my drink and then when I rolled up to the drive-through window, she had called over a few other baristas to think happy birthday to me. It was such a surprise and a sweet little moment of kindness right when I needed it the most. A wonderful reminder that a little kindness is never really little. The Light Podcast is brought to you by Intuit. The technology platform that helps build your confidence with financial tools like TurboTax, Credit Karma, QuickBooks,

and MailChimp. For every dream, there's an obstacle. But it Intuit, We are helping turn financial obstacles into opportunities and a brighter future for all. A brighter future for the new homeowner was able to leave her credit card debt in the rear view mirror. A brighter future for the young chef who can fund the food truck inspired by his mom

without needing a dime from her. And a brighter future for the millions of students who can now chase their dreams, whatever they may be, with access to financial tools in the classroom. Intuit has helped over 100 million people find the financial confidence to fuel their dreams. Now, it's your turn. So let's get into it. You mentioned your mother. She's an incredible person. You and I did an event together.

This is just before COVID. And there was some situation where I found myself in a room with a bunch of people and your mom's there, and she's the most serene person, completely, completely unaffected by your success. That's exactly the understatement. Yeah, I mean, just this very Zen, yeah, this is what's happening, but such, such a, that is a testament, because I think it's very rare when you,

I've, in my career, I've seen many people who I've been close to go through the gauntlet of fame and the glare and they change. A lot of people change and some people don't. Some people are always themselves. And your mom's seen like, she just, and she lived in the White House and just thought, well, I'd rather be at home, I guess.

Oh my God. And she wouldn't, you know, we'd have to beg her to partake in anything, to travel abroad, you know, why would I want to go to China? Because it would be a cool trip. The only thing that would finally, and we'd play this dance all the time, you know? There's a big, because I would always try to travel, do a big trip with the girls,

because I never pulled the girls out of school for anything. It was like, you are normal kids, this isn't about you, go to school, this security, they're only trying to protect you because you become a risk to the president. If you get kidnapped, nobody's thinking about you. So I have that in. I have that in me too. It's like, you're not special. This is not about you. This is about your father. Go to school. But I would try to plan one trip in the summer right before camps and all that started. And we've been to Venice.

We've been, you know, we've seen the Pope. We visited the Queen who gave the kids a ride. This was off script too. I mean, we went to London after our first visit and we just went for a regular trip. And the Queen, her majesty, heard that we were there and invited us over. Yeah, just like, just come over.

I had that happen. She didn't call. But the people called the people. And OK, we thought, OK, we're going to Buckingham Palace. This was after this visit. This is how kind she was to our family. So they said, just come by the Her Majesty once you to just see the palace and nobody was there. We walk in. It's me, the girl's mom and Mama K, who's the girl's godmother, who's also a traveling

companion. And the queen showed us the gold room. There is a gold room, a room full of gold, y'all. Everything in the palace was like, this is what we were trying to do in the White House. The Rose Garden, our Rose Garden was like, they're Rose Garden. We were in a buggy riding through the roses forever. I was like, now this is a Rose Garden. She let the kids sit in her car. I mean, we were there for like an afternoon, and then they set up tea for us. And here we're sitting just in some room in the palace

and who comes down to greet us. But her majesty, just with her purse in her house, I was like, you do carry that purse everywhere. You wanted to be like, where are you going? You're at home. LAUGHTER LAUGHTER I've always wondered about that.

Why? It's with her everywhere. She came down for a visit. She had her purse. Yeah. And I was like, I hear you. Why? It's with her everywhere. She came down for a visit. She had her purse. And I was like, I hear you. But anyway, I digress. Those were the kind of tricks.

Those are funny digressions. Oh, that was great. Those are the kind of trips that my mother would be like, ah, not, not, not, not, not. I'm seeing one gold room. You see them all. So we went to Rome once, saw the Pope. I think she met two popes, right?

So the last one of the last tricks we took was going to Italy again, going to Venice. So the question was, Mom, do you want to come? Want to come to Italy? I've been to Italy. Why would I want to go again? Because it'll be, Venice is different than Rome. So usually she would only go because in the end I'd say the girls need you to go. Okay, then.

If the girls need me to go, then I'll go. I'm like, oh, lady, get over yourself. But anyway, she is not impressed with me. She's still, I say this, my brother, she still loves him more. She's still that mother that loves her son. She's like, I know you were first lady, but Craig, did you taste his wine?

His wine? He had the best wine. First lady, but Craig, just, did you taste his wine? His wine, he had the best wine. And I was like, mom, we live in the White House. His wine is not that good. I know, it's not that good. Well, now we're getting to some stuff here. This is good.

Yeah. With mothers in their sons. I am a victim. No. So, she kept us all grounded in the White House. And I have a chapter in there because I've always tried to get my mom to write a book. And what do you think she would say? Nobody wants to hear what I have to say.

I was like, yeah, mom, they do. They really do. You have done a lot in this world. My mom is one of seven. And this is in the time where I don't think people realize that women probably had postpartum. And now looking back and knowing my grandmother, I was like, my grandmother was depressed.

We always just thought she was snobby, right? She was tired. But especially as black people, you didn't recognize that. She, her mother was very particular about things in the house. And my mom told the story of how they had this one glass dining room table in the living room. Seven kids and they were never allowed to touch the glass table but they were forced to get dressed up whenever there was company and sit dressed up. They couldn't say a word. Kids were to be seen and not heard and my mother

remembers just sitting for hours listening to adults talk and thinking these people are so stupid. They're not even saying anything. She said she remembers in her head that they're not even making sense, but she couldn't say anything. And they couldn't touch the glass table. So they went years, never touching that glass table, seven kids, never broke until one day, one of her mother's friends came over,

sat on the table and broke it. And my mother cracks up about that story. She's like, we just laughed and laughed and laughed about it. But my mother decided then and there that she wasn't going to raise her kids to be seen and not heard. My mother was able to parent in a way that was the opposite of what she saw. And I think a lot of people who don't have a certain thing, we question if we didn't have a dad or we didn't have a mother that saw us, we didn't live in a perfect household, that how can we parent with what we don't have? My mother and father, both who had interesting relationships with their parents, they did

the opposite of what they wanted. And that's another tool. It's like, you can learn from the brokenness. You can learn about what you don't want to do. My parents were brilliant parents. They didn't come from brilliant parents, but they worked hard to do. My parents were brilliant parents. They didn't come from brilliant parents, but they worked hard to do the opposite of what was done to them. So I think we all have the ability with the right set of tools to grow beyond what we've ever

seen. And, you know, I want people to embrace that. I want parents, particularly to understand that you don't have to have stuff to be a good parent. You know, don't break your neck, trying to, and I don't know kids are like, don't tell them that. Don't. Do not helicopter them and do not give them a lot of stuff. If you give them your love and gladness, that's all that they need.

That's all that they need, even if they say they want more. [♪ music very tenacious and hard-working and she always wanted everything perfect. The story I tell about Michelle is once she hates, she had a coloring book like all little children had and when my husband and I looked at her coloring book, we saw that each page that had a little mark outside the line was scribbled on and she moved on to another picture to color. It had to be perfect and that was when she was very level. Maybe three, three years old and my husband and I asked each other, did you tell her to do that? And both of a sudden I didn't ask her to do that. That's crazy. She did homework over and over again. Sometimes I would even have to ask her to please put that pencil and paper down and relax. And she did the same thing when she

took piano lessons. She just kept playing the song over and over again. So that was just her. We'll be right back with more of my discussion with Conan. You're listening to the Audible original Michelle Obama The Light podcast. Like what you're hearing, listen to more from Michelle Obama between episodes on Audible. Sign up for a free Audible trial and get your copy of the Light We Carry audiobook. For now, enjoy listening to The Light Podcast. You talk about how you witnessed when you met the president, President Obama, when you met him for the first time and you met his family, that his family dynamic was different from yours.

They were huggers, is that right? It was, you know, hugs and I love, and I love you, and I miss you, and we didn't do that in our house. And I relate to your story. Yeah, yeah. But I have a whole chapter on partnering well, because that's a big question that I get from young couples, especially young women.

How you find a man? How you did? And they see us and they're like, hashtag couples goals. They see me in Barack and it's like, we all look all hugged up all the time. And we are. I love him. That's my boo. But I share that chapter because I see, too, first of all, we don't talk enough about the real of marriage.

So you got a lot of young people who don't know how to pick partners, don't know why they're getting married, don't know what marriage is and how hard it is because nobody ever shares the truth of it. But one of the things that makes marriage hard is that you're trying to pool two lives together, two different temperaments, two different ways of being. And like you said, Barack grew up in Hawaii,

his mother lived abroad, worked abroad. So they would see each other once a year. You know, and so I always said, he learned to love at a distance. And when you're loving at a distance, the words matter, right? I mean, that's all you have, or the words, letters, and, you know, and hugs,

and you've got to get it all in right there, right here and now, I grew up the exact opposite. I grew up on the south side with everybody. I've ever known within seven blocks of each other. You know, we, me and my family lived above my great aunt. We lived around the corner from my mother's mother, the woman I told you about, who was kind of, she, of course, they separated from my grandfather, who was our favorite.

He lived around the corner from her. You know, with another aunt, my father's parents lived maybe ten blocks away. We saw each other all the time and you celebrated everybody's birthday, seven kids, all these grandkids, there was a birthday every weekend, you know. We were just like, I don't need to hug you because I'll see you tomorrow, right? So that's a different way of showing affection. And when you merge those two ways of being, there's a whole lot of compromise that has to happen around how you interact.

And it takes work to figure out the balance of, how do I get what I need and how does he get what he needs? That's why there's no such thing as 50-50. I've never experienced 50-50 in my marriage. Right. You know, and this, I don't want to have to compromise. And it's like, well, then you want to live by yourself, which is fine.

You know, that's, that's, that is a worthwhile ambition. I don't want my daughters to feel like marriage is the only option for them to be happy. You know, if they choose to be married, then I want them to do the work to be whole individuals so that they know what they want and they know how to look for another whole individual to come to the table with. But I think there are a lot of young girls in particular who just dream of the wedding. You know, they spend more time on Pinterest, with the wish books, and everybody knows the third dress.

Now everybody wears three dresses. It's not just one. You got to have the wedding dress, the reception dress, and then the daftoparty dress. And then you've got the pre-engagement and the bachelorette thing, and before you know it, you've spent $100,000, and you don't even know that dude. Because guess what? Young couples don't do. They don't talk.

Because everybody's trying to not look thirsty. I've talked to too many young women who have been dating dudes. They don't even know. And they're not asking questions like, what's your family like? How do they show love? Little things. And I was like, why don't you know that? What's his mother's name? You don't know his mother's name? You guys have been talking, does he have a mother? Why didn't you ask him if he has a mother?

That's gonna tell you something. Well, I don't wanna look thirsty and it's like the thing that I say is that real love is nothing but thirsty. Baroque. Barak. I knew Barak was the right one because he wasn't playing any games. He wasn't trying to pretend like we were dating but weren't, you know. He wasn't trying to relabel something.

I could count on him to call me back. I'm like, if dude's not even calling you back, don't bother, Move on to the next one. The guy you should marry, she'll call you back. He should do what he says. Same thing for women. If she's playing games, move on. You know, you can't enter a relationship in game playing, well, you can't enter marriage playing a game. You know, you have to know who you're dating. And too many young people are out here playing at casual until they get married and they've never practiced not casual and

Then it gets hard. Yeah, and they want to quit and it's like but it's just been two years but if you can't get through those rough times and That's that is all marriage guarantees you is uncertainty and Difficulty, right there. There is no happily all the time you it is impossible So I don't want young people to First of all, I want them to think harder before they do marry and then once you're in there, if you're with somebody you like and respect, and it's just hard, you don't divorce that.

You work on that. You work through that to get to the other side of that. Because let me tell you, if you think the grass is greener, as my mom would always say, every man, you're going to leave him and go to, and he's going to have the same issues issues, you're just gonna get readjusted to that. I tell the story of my mom in becoming of how she would go through, she told me this. She would go through a period every spring when we were little where she would think about leaving my dad.

And it was like it would be right around spring and she'd do her spring crilining and open up the windows and let the fresh air in and she's thinking this is the time I'm gonna leave your father. She tells me this later and I'm like what? And she said and I would play that out in my mind and think no you know I love this man, I love this life. It was like she did an annual recommitment to, through herself, unbeknownst to my father, thank God. He had no idea at all times.

He had no idea. He's hanging by a thread. That's right. But I think we have to share more of the real of marriage so that young people don't run away when it gets hard. And I think some women feel like they have to settle for casual, right? Because of the numbers game, right? I know for black women, you start doing the math if you're looking for your black king, right?

And the numbers are low and our numbers are high. I see too many women who are settling for less and less and less. You know, and I know all the men out here I'm about to tell them, don't do it. Keep your bar high. You know, I mean, it be okay with being alone if that's what has to be. I mean, I wish people find love, but I have seen too many people in bad relationships, and that's some of the loneliest feeling you can be is to be with somebody that doesn't love you the way you deserve to be loved. So... I think I speak for everybody here.

I've been so thirsty for optimism. I've been really thirsty for optimism. And I'm very tired. We talked about this. We have a... We have a new cycle that's run by an algorithm. It's constantly telling us it's all over. We're done. We have a new cycle that's run by an algorithm. It's constantly telling us it's all over.

We're done. Every year is worse than the next one. This is the worst year ever. And then the next year is the worst year ever. And I find it, I think it really gets to these young people. I think it gets. It does. Because my perspective is different.

My perspective is there's so much good, and there's so much positivity, and there's so many. I mean, I'm really impressed with the young people I meet. I am too. And I think. I am too. But I think what you're doing, you earned the right a long time ago too.

If you wanted to, just say I'm going to sit at home and watch Netflix. And you earn that right a long time ago. You did your part, but you're still out here, and you're exposing your frailty and your vulnerability. And that is a brave thing to do. And it's an amazing gift you're giving people. So on behalf of everybody here, thank you very much.

Ladies and gentlemen, Sherlow bye bye! Thank you! When a wake up in the morning low Being in a relationship isn't easy. It takes work, real work, to find any semblance of success or stability. And the truth is, being single isn't easy either. You're always wondering where or when you might meet that special someone. You're getting all those questions from parents and aunties about when you're going to couple up. And don't give me started on the apps and texting and sliding into people's DMs.

So all I can say is that whether you're in a relationship right now or not, you deserve someone who treats you with a baseline of dignity and respect. That's the foundation that has to exist before you can start diving deeper into your own vulnerabilities and intertwining your lives and ultimately leaning on one another in a way that can be truly beautiful. And really, that gets back to this idea of belonging that Conan and I also talked about. A lot of us are hoping to find not just a partner who makes us feel understood and accepted, but also others who welcome us with open arms,

family, friends, colleagues, and yes, even a talk show host. I'm so grateful to explore all of that and more with Conan. Thanks again for listening. Talk to you again soon. This has been a higher ground and audible original, produced by higher ground and little everywhere, executive produced by Dan Fehrman and Mukta Mohan for Higher Ground

and Jane Marie for Little Everywhere. Audible executive producers Zola Masheriki and Nick DiAngelo, Audible co-producers Keith Bhutan and Glenn Pogue, produced by Mike Richter, with additional production by Joyce Sanford, Dan Galucci, Nancy Golemisky, and Lisa Polak. Production support by Andrew Epen, Jenna Levin, Julia Murray, and Colin McNulty, location recording by Jody Elf. Special thanks to Melissa Winter, Jill VanLokeren, Crystal Carson, Alex Mayceely, Haley Ewing, Marone Highly-Mescal, Sierra Tyler, Karl Ray,

Injury Radway, Meredith Koop, Sarah Corbett, Tyler Lechtenberg, and Usra Najum. The theme song is unstoppable by Sia. The closing song is lovely day by Bill Whitters. Audible head of U.S. content, Rachel Giazza, head of Audible Studios, Zola Masha Rickey. Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio LLC. Sound recording copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio LLC. Voice over by Novina Carmel.

This episode was recorded live at the Masonic Auditorium in San Francisco. And I know it's gonna be A lovely day