Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 1. Ira Glass: A Podcast Legend Teaches Mike How to Make a Podcast

Episode Date: June 15, 2020

Mike works out the concept for this very podcast during this very episode of this very podcast with podcast legend Ira Glass.Please consider contributing to the following organizations:NAACP Legal Defense FundDoctors Without BordersOxfam America

This is my voicemail. I don't know what he thinks he's doing starting a podcast. Like, this is what it's like to work with, like, a complete amateur. So I'm trying to call him on his phone. Mike? Mike? Yes, I'm on my cell phone. Yeah, I was just talking about you. To who? To people listening at home on the recording that I'm making for your podcast right now.

Oh, I see. So you're thinking we should just talk on the phone and record. I'm on GarageBand and you're probably on Pro Tools on your end? Yeah, like basically you record on your end, I'll record on my end. So this is the first episode of the Working It Out podcast. Okay, hold on. I'm going to take you off speakerphone then. Hold on.

Can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so now I'm hearing you on headphones. So now instead of people hearing you through my phone, this is the part where you would play from the microphone there. Okay, great. It okay great a little pro tip I'm sorry I feel like I'm being such a dick to you right now and I'm so sorry

no no it's so funny because the reason why you're the first episode of this is that you are the Yoda in my creative existence in the sense that I the Yoda in my creative existence in the sense that I bring to you a lot of projects I'm working on and you usually have a lot of feedback. Yeah.

Okay, so I'm pitching you this podcast, which is the most meta way to start a podcast, but I actually think it's in keeping with the theme of the podcast, which is called Working It Out. Please don't tell me that it's about investigating the death of Princess Diana. No. what it is, it's literally birthed out of the shutdown, which is to say that my tour is on hold. For now, the book was pushed a month. Obviously, everyone's experiencing this sort of existential pause and literal pause. experiencing this sort of existential pause and literal pause. So, so the, so the pitch is, since the shutdown, I did this Instagram live stream called tip your waitstaff. And it was positive and a good thing. But it went against every instinct as a comedian I have, which is

I was revealing all of my new material before it's meant to be consumed. Wait, wait. In other words, that was the idea of the podcast was like, let me talk about the material I'm working on with somebody else. Yeah. And I did 30 episodes of it. And we're raising money for comedy club waitstaffs across the country. And the premise was, what can we do that's literally entertaining remotely?

And it's jokes. And it's jokes. And it's just, here's our new jokes. Can I just say something to the audience right now? This is Mike and I pretending that I don't know this. We talk all the time. So I totally know this information. I just want to just be upfront about that.

And we're being very professional and presenting the information here in a conversational form. So you can know it. Okay, yes, Mike Birbiglia. You don't have to stop and start with every single thing that you know or do not know. Fine. I don't know if you know anything about these radio shows

or podcasts, but you don't have to repeat. You don't have to stop and start. Thank you. Good to know. Good to know. Transparency. That's all. Okay, yes.

Ever since you won that Pulitzer. Ooh. Ever since. I should have said it with more anger. Ever since you won that Pulitzer. You can't see me, but I'm staring at the wall. You're so different. You're so different.

I barely recognize you. Your head's so big. I was wondering about that Pulitzer, actually. Now that you have a Pulitzer, you can give me one, right? Yeah, it's like a social disease or something. Yes, I can. So I had this live stream, as you know, Tip Your Weight Staff. But what it made me realize is that But what it made me realize is that you can reveal to people what your material is, and it's not as precious as you think. So basically people would hear you, like, make the joke in different ways and develop it and add tags onto it and all that from week to week. Yeah, but it's all piecemeal.

So, like, today on the show, I'm going to run a piece with you that's like four minutes of comedy. Okay. And we can talk about that. Okay. And next week, you know, with John Mulaney or Hannah Gadsby, I'll run another five-minute piece, and we'll sort of kick it around. And they'll run their five minutes, and we'll kick that around. So I guess what I would say is, like, do you want to poke holes? And this is our—I would say this is our process for our movies and the shows.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Pitch me. Yeah. Let's, let's just do it. Let's stop talking about it.

Let's just jump in. So, so that's great. I have a premise of the show. It's called working it out. The component parts are, um, there's a theme song,

which Jack Antonoff from bleachers and Fun is making right now. And he and I did a song for Tip Your Weight Staff. We did a song for the new one on Broadway, as you know, that you're a producer of. Yes, your Broadway show. And so this is totally embarrassing. I'm going to sing you the lyrics of a song with no melody. Okay. I'm in.

I want you to imagine that Jack is singing it. Okay. And that it has a nice melody to it in the style of almost like a 70s Bruce Springsteen, like a Nebraska kind of feel. Sure. So this is the beginning of the show. It goes, Sure. So this is the beginning of the show.

It goes, We're working it out, cause it's not done. We're working it out, cause there's no one. But we don't have to stop making jokes, though these versions might choke. They will someday breathe cleaner air. We're gonna make art and we'll show you the guts and the soup and the nuts. These aren't jokes without punchlines.

These aren't tales without storylines. These are thoughts without reasons or rhymes. Because we're working it out. I have a couple of reactions. First of all, that's a pretty good rendition. Second, I'm shocked at how good that was. I'm actually shocked as your friend. But then also,

it's such a Jack Antonoff song. He's doing that trick that he does where one line sort of bleeds into the next line. You know what I mean? Oh my God, it really is a Jack Antonoff song. So that's the theme song. That's a good theme song. That's how the show opens.

That makes it feel like it's a thing. Okay. Okay, good. So in the podcast, I'm anticipating, based on the Instagram live Tip Your Weight Staffs, some people just don't bring material. Wait, wait, you mean the comedians who come onto the podcast are not going to bring material? Well, they're asked to. But what I'm saying is

with Tip Your Weight Staff, I noticed they don't always do it. And so what I thought was I'm going to create a segment of the show called The Slow Round, which is a reference to The Speed Round,

which is in a lot of interviews. Speed Round. What are you going to get? What are you going to get? Earthquakes. Oh, okay. So I have The Slow Round and it's a series of prompts so like so i'll give you some of the prompts do you remember a smell from your childhood um i i do remember a smell from my childhood yeah um and uh

it's uh it's the smell of uh brisket cooking and when i was a kid growing up in the Baltimore suburbs, the way that all Jews where I grew up would make brisket was the same, which is that the key ingredient was Lipton onion soup mix. And this has been on my mind because I was at the bodega keeping a safe social distance and I saw Lipton onion soup mix. And I was like, oh my God, I've got to buy that and make brisket for Chris, my girlfriend, which I did the other day. And I have to say the house filled with the smell that I haven't smelled in decades.

Oh, so mine is the YMCA pool chlorine, which is the title. Actually, the show I'm developing is the live show is called the YMCA pool. And I know you talk about that smell at some length in some of the material development because I've seen you work it on stage when I've visited you at your job a couple of times. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's my first prompt, smell from childhood. Good. Second prompt, what is a memory you have from childhood that's on a loop in your brain, but it doesn't fit into a story? Like, I have one where in kindergarten, I swear to God, this is on a loop in my brain.

In kindergarten, first day of kindergarten, the older kids, which was the second graders, who seemed like they were six feet tall, showed us, these two kids, showed us where the bathroom was. I went physically to the bathrooms and I didn't have to go. And so I was the only kid who walked out of the bathroom. And to this day, I remember one of these second graders going, get in there.

And then I walked back in the bathroom. I swear to God, it's on a loop in my brain. Like it comes up all the time in your head? Yeah. Wow. What do you think that means? If you were going to break it down, you'd say it's some sense of like that I'm doing something wrong

or I'm afraid of I'm doing something wrong? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess so. Wow. Do you have anything on a loop in your brain that's not even a story, but it's just like a memory loop? There are things that my mom would do. Like basically my sisters and I have talked about this. We're like talking to my mom.

My mom would like come home from her job and then she would get on the phone with her friends and then trying to distract her from the phone. And often she would be talking about us, but we couldn't get her to address us. And then the phone in the kitchen of our house when I was growing up, it was on this like, there was some like thing on the wall, which had like a little door on it. And you're supposed to put mail in there inside this little compartment and if you tugged on the phone cord in the right way, the door

would open up and all the mail would fall under the floor. And it was like a kind of running gag of our childhood. We'd be trying to get our mom's attention and she would turn away from us and that would tug on the cord and then the door would open and the mail would fall on the floor.

Oh, my gosh. And by the way, none of that happened. You don't think that happened? No, I'm just kidding. I just feel like it's too on the nose. Like it's so literary. I guess. I have talked about my mom, like, like who's been dead for years now, like for the three of us,

like that image of trying to get her attention often while she was talking about us, you know, like either a problem we were having or an achievement we had had, like Randy played a recital and then like Randy, my older sister, wouldn't be able to get her to talk to her. Like, like, it was just like that, like, it's such a vivid image. Oh, my gosh. And transparent, whose meaning is transparent. But, like, yeah, yeah. Okay, so I got to get you through the slow round. Sorry. Do you have a memory that still makes you cringe?

So many. So mine is everything that happened in the, like, weeks before the big breakup in my life that happened during Sleepwalk With Me. So like, I remember, her real name's Maggie, in the show I say Abby, but I remember I would say things in that period of time that would be so dismissive and irrationally dismissive. And I won't even repeat them because they're mean. Like, I would just be like, do you have to do that thing? You know what I mean?

Like, do you have to do that? And whenever I flash back to it, I cringe so hard and I feel terrible about it. Right. Because the things she was doing were totally fine and you were totally regular roommate stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I have things that I cringe about but I don't think I want to talk about any of them.

I don't. That's the clickbait right there, by the way. Yeah. I have things that I cringe about from my past but I'm not going to talk about this here. Ira Glass said to Mike Birbiglia on the Working It Out podcast. What's the next question on the list? What is a group in your life that wouldn't let you...

Go ahead. Can I just say these questions are all too profound? Like they all require, like each one of them I feel like would require real thought. I don't, but I think that the spontaneity of what they make you think of is what the show is about. Got it. Okay. Don't you think? I mean, the show is whatever you say it is. Right. I know, I know. But imagine if you were the producer of the show.

Wouldn't you think that prompts like this? Maybe we only get to one or two, by the way. Oh, they're that slow. Okay, I see. That's why I'm saying it's the slow round. That's why it's called the slow round. So here's the next one. What's a group that wouldn't let you in

any time in your life that you desperately wanted to be in but make a pitch for yourself now to be let in. Well, two groups come to mind. I was really close friends with this kid, Artie Aronoff, up until fifth grade. And then in fifth grade, I was so uncool that he simply couldn't be friends with me anymore.

Oh, my gosh. And I don't begrudge him that. But it was painful. But I don't think I have a pitch. Like I don't think I had any merits to sell. The other group that rejected me and it really hurt me was when I started This American Life. When I started This American Life, I'd been working for NPR since I was 19. And so at that point, I was 37 years old.

I'd worked there for 18 years. If you think about starting to work at a place when you were 19. Oh my, you used your whole life. It was my entire adult life, for sure. And I grew up there and I knew everybody. And NPR was a little smaller than two. Like I started when it was like a tiny operation. And so I started this new show and I found the funding myself and did it with WBEZ in Chicago, which is where I was living. And, you know,

I got the funding. We were on like seven of the 10 top markets. We had won a Peabody Award, which was a fancy award. And people seemed to like it. And we were probably on like, I don't know, 90, we were on about 100 stations at that point out of the 500 in the public radio system. But that's pretty good. We'd only been on the air for a few months, right? And we're trying to get on the air more. So we needed a network. We wanted a network to pick us up. And the person in charge of acquiring programming for NPR just did not like the show or get the show. Oh my God. And then people from the news division,

the people who I knew, including the hosts of All Things Considered and the producers of All Things Considered who I had worked very closely with for years they would go to the suits upstairs and they would just say you guys don't understand, we made this kid we own this guy

everything he's doing on the show he invented on our show that guy David Sedaris who he puts on his new show all the time he started David Sedaris as a commentator on Morning Edition. Those stories where he goes out and talks to people and have all those little moments and stuff, he did that for us. We own this, so we should be planting our flag in it.

And they just didn't like the show, the people who had to make the decision. And they didn't pick it up. And PRI, which was the big competitor at the time, they're like, we'll pick you up. And they doubled our number of stations in three months. They were like wonderful to work with. But NPR wouldn't pick it up. For years, I fantasized about being on their shows.

It ends with them saying, at the end of the NPR shows, they end saying like, this is NPR, National Public Radio. I thought like, oh my God, I'm going to get to say that at the end of my own show. Oh, my gosh. It never happened. And gratifyingly, our show was successful enough that the people who told us no got fired. It was seen as a historic mistake.

And interestingly, they had done this once before. And it's when Garrison Keillor started Prairie Home Companion. He wanted it to be an NPR show. And they're like, nah, we don't get it. Like the singing. He's like, okay. And it became the single most popular show on public radio for a long time. That and Car Talk were the two, like, they were the most popular hours on public, or

it was two hours. It was the most popular shows on public radio NPR had turned down, you know? So NPR to you was the second grader saying, get in there. Yeah, exactly. I have, have you ever gotten punched in the face? Because I've been punched in the face

a lot, and I think it generally leads to a lot of good stories. That is a – that will always lead to a good story, yeah. So those are my props for the slow round. Do you like the slow round? I do. Here's my pitch is that when you do the slow round, you present people with four of them and you say pick one. Okay.

I like that. And then you present them with the other four and you say pick another one. Okay, I like that. And then you present them with the other four and you say, pick another one. Oh, I love that. And then if you don't get great answers, tell them to pick another. And then maybe you edit it so it sounded like they picked that one first.

Oh my gosh, by the way, I can hear my daughter in the other room. I don't want to say that too loud because she'll come in. She helped me create in my bedroom a quote-unquote fort of pillows that create the – That's your studio? The sound cushion studio. Because for the listeners at home, if there's not something to take in the sound,

to absorb the sound, then it just bounces around and there's an echo. And so that's – but she's so proud of – that she helped make dad's radio studio. Oh, that's really sweet. I know. It's so sweet because she makes forts in the living room, and then I have my fort, my radio fort. It's so sweet because she makes forts in the living room and then I have my fort my radio fort it's really sweet

I have to say it's hard to find a practical application for that skill of making a childhood fort this might be the only one oh I love that you actually able to use her skills and I feel like every time you you do the show, an episode, you have to tell her, like, okay, Daddy's got to record.

Like, I need a fort. And then she can, like, do it again. It's like she's part of the business. It's funny because, like, as I was telling you that story, it's just like I was making the fort. Like, I literally get choked up and just talking about Una. And, like, the whole last show that you and I worked on together was the new one, which people can see. Maybe they've seen it already on Netflix or whatever.

And people always say like, oh, you're going to – you made a show about having a child and the next show is going to be about when she's five. And I'm like, no. I always go, no, I'm, I always go, no, my next show is about my own death. Cause that's, uh, what I think about a lot. And as I approach middle age or I'm in middle age and, uh, and, uh, and the other thing is I don't have anything to say about having children. Like literally like I, I, that was the new one was my piece about it. Like, that's it. I'm done.

I'm out on observing the concept of having a child. I see that. Maybe I'm, and maybe I'm jumping the gun. I don't know. But that's how I feel about it. That's why the YMCA pool show

is so much about, it's just about death-themed things. I can't tell. Like, it's just about death-themed things. I can't tell. Like, it's an intrusion on her privacy to talk about her on stage at this point. That's how I feel about it. I do it minimally, minimally. But I have to say, like,

she's the most important thing in your life next to Jenny. And so it's sort of hard to imagine you talking about the things that are important to you without eventually talking about her i bet you do i bet like despite this moment where you feel this way it's hard to imagine you're going to not be able to talk about it because i know how frustrated you get at doing material that has no deeper meaning to you and your whole brand is doing stories that are funny but also have a feeling to them and if where your feelings are coming from is her so much of the time i i bet it's not gonna last the moratorium thank thank you so much um thanks for and thanks for being here no i'm just kidding

i just thought that was a good way to wrap it up but uh there's so much. Thanks for, and thanks for being here. No, I'm just kidding. I just thought that was a good way to wrap it up, but there's so much to go. You know, who said that to me too, is one of my favorite authors, Zadie Smith, I was talking to, and I said,

I'm not going to talk about it on stage now that I've done the new one. And she goes, she just goes like, in the most beautifully dismissive way that only Zadie Smith can pull off. She just goes, yeah, good luck with that. So the show is called, that I'm working on is called YMCA Pool. And you've seen a lot of it in process. And so I wanted to give you something

that you haven't heard, which has to do with like the moment, the moment... Wait, wait, can I just signpost? So this is the part of the show where you're finally going to read me material, right? This is act three or act four, whatever it is. Okay, so it's not going to be act one.

That's interesting. Hold on. All right, getting paper out here and my pen is ready and I'm taking notes. Okay? So the show, YMCA Pool, is all about middle age and thinking about my own death. And basically, like, it's the first time in my life where, you know, they always say that term over the hill. You've seen this joke, but it's like they say that term, like, when you're middle age, you're over the hill.

And I never understood that term until I got on the hill. And then I'm like, oh, there's natural causes. They're not close, but they're coming. I never heard that joke. That's a good joke. Oh, you haven't heard that one? No. So that's actually been in my new forming hour,

and I have a lot of jokes like in that universe of like middle-age and death and really like contemplating my eventual death of maybe natural causes. And so I was free writing on when did I start thinking about death so much? And so I wrote, I had a tumor in my bladder. I had a malignant tumor in my bladder when I was 19. And I remember when I got cancer because I had to look up cancer. And I looked it up and it said a disease caused, quote, a disease caused by uncontrolled division of abnormal cells. And I thought, okay, can you be more specific?

And then I read a whole book that was more specific. And I was like, I think I'll stick with that first definition. You've really lost me. And so whenever a friend tells me they have cancer, which I don't mean to brag, is quite often, part of me is like, I'm so sorry. And then part of me is like, can you explain to me what cancer is? Because maybe this time I'll get it. Like, I don't get it. And look, I get it the way I get that water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, which is to say, I don't get it, but I'll drink it. And I'll definitely drink it if you add sugar and caramel colored secret ingredients that may or may not cause cancer. And I've told my cancer story a lot of times because it's hooky,

but I rarely tell people this detail, and you'll see why. I discovered the tumor because I was driving home from college and I noticed there was blood in my pee, and it was a specific type of blood. The instant it would hit the water, it would create what I can only describe as a fireworks display of blood in the toilet like poof poof

poof like congratulations you might have cancer because I really did think I had cancer when I saw the bloody fireworks I was like that's cancer so anyway I go to my urologist the next day and he does a series of tests for some reason I feel the need to stop him at one point, and this is so embarrassing.

And this is why I haven't told this story for so many years. Because I've told this story in other forms in Sleepwalk With Me about getting cancer, but I said to my doctor, is it possible that the blood is from masturbating too much? Which I'm guessing, if there are urologist drinking games, is from masturbating too much, which I'm guessing if there are urologists drinking games is one of the key phrases because he did not seem surprised. Nevertheless, he milked it, no pun intended. He looked at me for a few moments with a judgmental look that said, you disgusting, horny, desperate, lonely pig. And then he said, no, it's not that. I was diagnosed with bladder cancer, which they took out,

and the doctors decided not to do chemo or radiation because their gamble was that maybe this was an anomaly. And it was, as far as we know. I'm 41 years old and it hasn't come back, but that was the day I first became preoccupied with death. Okay, that's pretty good. Should we do what we normally do when you like, when I hear a bit of yours? Okay. Um, uh, I think it's solid. I think, uh, I think there's some jokes that aren't working at the beginning, but you get to stuff that does really work. Okay. And, um, okay. So starting at the top, uh, uh okay i love the over the hill joke and then when they start thinking about death it was 19 um then you talk about the fireworks i love like the image and

the thing you're saying about that it's like uh it's it's like uh fireworks into congratulations you might have cancer yeah yeah that's really funny. That's why I felt like it really felt like there was a thing here. So it got interesting to you at the fireworks thing. At the fireworks display, it got super interesting. And then I feel like when you get to the urologist, the disgusting pig joke line doesn't work. The thing that's better than that is the premise that the urologist has heard this a million times. And the way you're doing it right now is you explain that he's heard it a million times. And then you say he milked it. And then you say he made the disgusting pig thing. But I think it's funnier even if it's not true. And here's where we leave the realm of journalism

and enter the realm of it's not your job to be a journalist. Sure, sure. I just think that you shouldn't tell us that he's seen this a million times and let us see that through his reaction. Oh, okay. You tell him and as soon as you say it, you realize, oh, wait a second, how stupid it is. But his look indicates, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're the fourth person in there saying this to him today. I'm not coming up with the right way to perform this but like his thing shouldn't be you disgusting pig

his thing should be like oh my god you're ahead of it and then how do you end it diagnosed maybe it was an anomaly the tumor was maybe an anomaly

did the tumor go maybe an anomaly. Did the tumor go away? Did they remove it? Did they excise it? They took it out. Oh, you need to say that. That's not in there. You just say that they didn't give it out. Oh, I'm sorry.

I was diagnosed with bladder cancer, which they took out. Oh, they took it out. They took out the tumor. With like surgery or something. Yep. Just give me a little extra. I didn't get that. Somehow that passed me, even if you said it.

Maybe other people who haven't heard it. But I would little extra. I didn't get that. Somehow that passed me, even if you said it. Okay, got it. But I would slow it down and add the surgery thing. Wait, what is this piece about? And then I go, I'm 41 years old. It hasn't come back. That was the day I became preoccupied with death. You know what's the problem with this piece? What?

It doesn't live up to its premise. At no point do you confront death in this piece. You've totally missed the premise. No, no, but it's part of a larger show that's all about death. I know, but you're saying, I'm going to tell you the story of when I first confronted death, and at no point in the story do you confront death. And I think what you need to do is either before the fireworks display part of it, when you're talking about, I didn't understand what cancer was.

Right, right. I think you need to have a moment where you picture your own death. I think maybe it could be the cancer taking over your body and winning. I think you actually need to think about the thing that's the premise of the story. Because I actually think if that could be in there, were you scared when you went to the doctor? Gosh. It really reminds me of the COVID thing that people describe, which is this distortion of space and time where everything blends together

where I was just sort of like everything became mush. It's so hard to describe. You mean when the doctor said to you it's cancer? It wasn't the doctor who said it. They actually, in real life, what happened is they put me under to see what was there. And they did a cystoscopy, which I talk about in the new one.

But I was surgically under for the cystoscopy. While I was under, they saw the cancer, they saw the tumor, they made an executive decision to put me under deeper and take it out while I was under. And then I woke up and it was like getting punched in the face with like, boom, cancer. They're like, literally, my mom had to explain to me. We get home and I'm like, woozy. I'm coming out of the thing. And she's like, so you had a tumor. And I'm like, okay. You know what I mean?

Like, it's like a lot to find out fast. I was like, okay. And then I was like, but it wasn't malignant. She's like, it was malignant. And I was like, it's going to be okay, right? She's like, it might be, you know, and then I just started crying. This part of the story is so much better than the story you're telling. Okay. So the story is in the wrong order. Like I think that you start by saying – and that's when you looked up cancer is after all that? No, no. It was before because I was – in other words – Wait. You knew you had cancer before you went to the urologist?

I was suspicious that I did, yeah. Why were you suspicious that it was cancer? You just Google blood in your pee and it's like, it could be this or cancer or this or cancer or this or cancer. You know what I mean? Okay, okay, okay. I think the order's wrong. I think the order has to be fireworks display.

You're going to say, at this time you say, I got a tumor when I was 19. And I wouldn't do the mush of reality then either. Do that at the point in the story where it happens. When did I start to think about death? It was when I was 19. And here's what happened. And then tell the story of the fireworks display.

Don't tell us cancer yet. Okay, so let it be a surprise. Don't let the audience get ahead of it. But also say, I got a tumor when I was 19. So we know where it's going. You're going to get cancer. We know it. Sure.

Here's what I'm going to tell you the story. Like, fireworks display, and then you conclude from the fireworks display, it sounds like, that it might be cancer, right? That's right. And then you look up. And then I start Googling it, and it suggests cancer a lot. Okay. And then you go to the doctor.

And then you learn that it's cancer. Right. And I think the moment of discovery, when you're told, needs to be a beat in the story. Yeah. And then it has to seem like a thing and it needs to seem like it's cancer and it needs to seem like it's real and you need to think about the feelings that that gave you and and riff on that but you're funny i'll tell you a funny memory that just came back to me as we're talking about this which is so we get home from the hospital and my dad is a doctor so it's like it's all his like buddies at the hospital and but this is the memory that just came back to me which is they're in the kitchen

and I'm sort of coming down from this and I'm at the kitchen island you know the thing in the middle and I'm thinking like I'm probably fine right you know and they're like you know there was a tumor and I'm like right but it's not that bad

right and my mom kept being like it was sort of like good cop bad that bad, right? And my mom kept being like, it was sort of like good cop, bad cop of cancer. It was like my mom kept being like, it's going to be fine. And my dad was like, no, it ain't. You know what I mean? She walked out of the room. He kicks the door closed. It's not going to be fine.

You know what I mean? That's malignant. Did she say malignant or did he say it's malignant? No, he did. As a matter of fact, he kept pointing out the ways malignant or did he say it's malignant? No, he did. As a matter of fact, he kept pointing out the ways. It's so funny because it's the exact opposite. Usually a doctor is more calming.

And with his patients, he has really good bedside manner. And his patients have said that to me over the years. He's such a good doctor. He's so caring and empathetic. And yet in this instance where it was his own son, and I think it was from genuine worry, I think he was really pessimistic. Slash like some sort of weird passive aggressive thing with your mom who's being too cheery about it.

Because your mom can also, like your mom is wonderful, can be a little on the cheerful side. And maybe their dynamic where she plays the super sunny one and he plays the sort of super dour one accidentally your cancer slipped into their relationship dynamic mike oh that's like suddenly like she's all being like you'll be fine and he's like being like a much grumpier version of himself than he ever would be with his own patient because you accidentally entered into their relationship content a fight that they would normally have about a bad meal at a restaurant where she would say, no, no, the spaghetti is great. And he would be like, I've never had red sauce like this. Suddenly you were the spaghetti meal that they're fighting over and you're the one with cancer.

I don't know. I think there's a whole thing there. I think the moment you discover it, but then there has to be an emotional beat. There is an emotional beat, which is when this happened, when dad is saying this i start crying and i'm like crying bawling bawling like someone like hit me in the face with a baseball bat crying and my mom is just saying like no he's just you know your dad is just upset he it actually is going to be fine. And it was – I mean it was heavy. Like I was like – that was the moment where I'm like I think I'm going to die.

Wait. Wait, wait. Did your dad cry? I think he was. No, no. Yeah. I mean he was very emotional. I don't know if he – I don't know if I've seen him cry in my whole life.

But when you saw him – but when you saw your dad so emotional, that's when... Yeah, my mom said, like, he's being emotional, but it's going to be fine kind of thing. Your dad's just being emotional about this. Right, because your dad can kind of like hold back. He's very much like a doctor. Yeah. Yeah.

He's not that openly emotional very much. So that's it. Can I point out something else that's really funny about the story you're telling that you're not even using for anything? And that is the doctor who removed a tumor from you, I just want to make sure I have this right. He didn't tell you that it was cancer and that you had a malignant tumor? And he left it to your mommy to do?

But you're a fucking adult when this story happens. You're 19 years old. No, you're right. Did you live at home? No. Well, I was home from college. So you're a fucking kid. You're an adult.

You're an adult man. 19. You could be in the army at 19. That is strange, yeah. Like a doctor shouldn't be telling a 19-year-old, go home, I'm going to tell your mommy, because your mommy's going to tell you that you have cancer. It's like you're a 40-year-old bride in a religious sect, and she and her husband,

brother, whoever, go into the doctor, and then they're like, all right, leave the room little lady while we tell your husband what you have and then he'll tell you while you're cooking his dinner. That's what happened to you. And I also wonder, did that doctor know your family? Is that why it happened? Yeah, it was my dad's golf buddy. Even that, it's very unprofessional. Oh, I know. Well, there's very unprofessional. Oh, I know. Well, there's another unprofessional thing

which is the main nurse for the surgery was the golf buddy's wife. Dude, oh my god. Dude, have I ever told you the story about me and Dr. Khan? Holy balls.

Oh my god. This was one of my favorite experiences at a doctor. So I had something wrong with my mouth and they said, you need this special procedure, an apicoectomy, I think it was called, where basically they drill into the side of your skull to fix like, I can't even remember what, it's like a root canal, but even more so. And then my dentist in Chicago was this wonderful dentist who actually like taught at the dental school. And he's always like, you know, I could do this, but I think you should get a second opinion. And really there's one guy in all of Chicago. And if you're going to get this done, he's the best. And his name is Dr.

Kahn. So he's getting a second opinion. So I went to another dentist and I told him like, here's what I got. I think it's an apicoectomy. I think it was called again. I hope I'm not getting the name of this wrong. And he's like, I could do this for you, but let me tell you something. There's this one guy and his name is Dr. Khan. And I was like, I'm going to see this Dr. Khan. So I go to Dr. Khan. And Dr. Khan turns out to be a wonderful oral surgeon. And so I go to his fancy office and he's lovely, like a lovely man. But his, like the assistant, the dental hygienist, his wife is from some other country and she also is a highly trained dentist, but she hasn't taken the board certification to be a dentist in the United States. So she apparently works as his assistant on these surgeries but can't perform the surgery himself.

And they give you these really strong drugs where – so you're awake doing it because you have to keep your mouth open. But you feel nothing. And you're stoned. You're basically stoned. And I've never been to the dentist and gotten – I can't remember if it was hydrogen gas or glyphine gas or whatever it was. But whatever it is, like, they give you, they give you. And so I'm stoned. And I'm not somebody who had a lot of experience being stoned. And in the middle of him working on me, he like asked for an instrument and he does something

and she's like, well, don't, don't you think you mean you want this instrument? And there's like a pause and he's like, no, I think what I need is this one. Oh my gosh. And she doesn't give it to him. And then they literally get into, like, a marital fight. Oh, my gosh. And imagine, like, you're stoned, and you're like, and also, like, she's on my left side, and he's on my right side,

and people are so physically close to you when they're doing, like, dentistry on you. Like, he's just inches away from my face. Oh, my gosh. And she's also quite close. And they get into this actual, very tense argument over like which part of the procedure, if it's going to be suction next, I don't even know what I'm talking about.

You know what I mean? And like, and I remember thinking, this is the greatest fucking thing I've ever seen. This is so good. It made me love him and her. And, and it wasn't frightening.

It was just fascinating because they're just like, this guy's drugged, he can't talk. And so they're just like, it became their living room. Well, it's funny because I had, there was sort of an unprofessionally thing that happened that I've never talked about on stage either. I should point out that. And just kind of say before we both get sued for libel,

you did a wonderful job. And another thing, and like, can I say one thing else? When I was getting diagnosed, they said to me like, in this procedure, it can go wrong.

And I was like, well, what are the side effects that can go wrong? And they say, you'll never be able to speak clearly again. It'll affect your speech.

Would that be a problem? And I was like, yes, that actually would be a problem for me in my line of work. I mean it would for anybody but for me especially or in addition to yeah this is sort of a minutiae point that could be in there which is there there was a thing with the nurse where after i woke up she said me, she goes, you were really high. You were on like the street equivalent of like horse tranks.

And she goes, you thought I was your mom. And you said, mom, I love you. Oh. And she told me this. And then I told my parents. I was still a little high. I told my parents that. And my dad got really mad.

He was like, she should not be telling you that. That is very unprofessional. Not only does my dad not say I love you to me, but he's very discouraging of other people relaying it. I should use that. I should use that. I should use that. Because actually, like, that's a good.

I feel like the whole scene with your parents is fascinating. I feel like you've got this. I feel like there's like a lot more human drama there to talk about, buddy. All right.

Well, I think we, I think we made a lot of headway and the final segment of the show. I want to hear the next, I want to hear the next iteration of it now. Now I'm involved. Okay, okay.

So the final segment of the show is called Working It Out for Charity. And my guest chooses a COVID-affected nonprofit, and I will donate to it. I'll say there's two charities that I'm a monthly donor to, in addition to my local public radio station, of course. And those are Doctors Without Borders and Oxfam America. And I don't know if they're doing any special COVID stuff. I would expect maybe Doctors Without Borders is. But I think anybody who donates to those two groups

is always doing something good for people. Okay, that's working it out for charity. And that's going to wrap it up. This is the pilot episode of the show and I really appreciate you doing this. Okay. It was fun talking about it. I feel like that was

so exactly like our normal process. That was Eric Glass and this is the first episode of Working It Out Hi Hey Jack, did you hear the episode? Yeah, I got an idea for it Working it out Cause it's not done Working it out, cause it's not done Working it out, cause there's no one

We don't have to stop making jokes Though these versions might choke They'll someday breathe cleaner We'll make art and we'll show you The guts and the soup and the nuts Hey, we'll take it Play the jokes without punchlines Tell us without stories

Thoughts without reason to rhyme We're working it Wow, that's going to do it for our first episode of Working It Out. My special thanks to the brilliant Ira Glass. You can find his body of work at thisamericanlife.org. Our producers of the Working It Out podcast are Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia. Consulting producer, Seth Barish. Sound mix by Kate Balinski.

Thanks to my consigliere, Mike Berkowitz, and special thanks to Jack Antonoff for that song. As always, a very special thanks to my wife, J-Hope Stein, and our daughter, Una, who created this radio fort. Do you want to say hi? Hi.

Thanks, Una. Me and Jen's book comes out tomorrow What's that? Tomorrow? It'll be available at your local curbside bookstore Or your favorite curbside book website Thanks most of all to you for listening Tell your friends, tell your enemies We're working it out.