Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 102. Tom Papa: Conflict Resolution with an Old Friend

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

Mike welcomes comedian, author, and podcast host Tom Papa. The two old friends get candid about a bump in their relationship and how they reconciled. They also share advice about the best ways to tell stories about real people in your life, and when profanity is and isn’t necessary. Plus, jokes and stories about Colin Quinn, loud Italians, and writing comedy books.Please consider donating to City Green

we were friends, then we had a falling out, then we became friends again. That was our thing. Yeah. What's your version of that? My version of that... And don't be sparing. You can be mean.

I don't know what it was. It's kind of vague. But I do remember saying, Mike, every time you talk to me, you're trying to get something. Oh, my gosh. And you were like, what? I'm just trying to.

And you were asking for something. Yeah. And I was like, Mike, literally every time that you come to me, you're trying to get something. And you should know that it's obvious and it's not going to help you. Oh, wow. you should know that it's obvious and it's not going to help you. Oh, wow. That is the voice of the great Tom Papa.

If you don't know Tom, you should check out his Netflix specials. So funny. Great comic. Someone I've known for a long time. As you can hear in the cold open, we have a lot of history. Some of it dramatic. We had a falling out at one point many, many years ago.

We've since made up. We're good friends. We have an awesome conversation where we talk about that, what we learned from it. We work out new jokes together. It's one of the more fruitful joke sessions on the show. You can really sort of see work out new jokes together. It's one of the more fruitful joke

sessions on the show. You can really sort of see how we break down jokes together. Next weekend, by the way, I'm in Providence, Rhode Island visiting Joey Bag of Donuts and returning to the Columbus Theater. Those are sold out, but there's still tickets for my shows in

Levittown, which is on Long Island, on as well as Sag Harbor, which is also on Long Island. It's in the Hamptons at the Bay Street Theater, which is gorgeous. I actually did The Old Man and the Pool there last summer. And as well as New Brunswick, New Jersey. There's only a few tickets left for New Brunswick, New Jersey. I was actually just in Philadelphia, and that was super, super fun at Helium. But I'm going to be in New Brunswick, New Jersey. I was actually just in Philadelphia. And that was super, super fun at Helium. But I'm going to be in New Brunswick at the Stress Factory, which is actually a place

that I think I opened for Tom Papa before, like 20 years ago. So my life has really come full circle. As for the old man in the pool, the finale of it is going to be in Edinburgh, Scotland at the Fringe Festival in August. And in the West End, some people say on the West End. It doesn't make sense to me. I say in the West End at the Wyndham's Theatre, the old man in the pool. In September, all that's on burbiggs.com.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Join the mailing list, email list, burbiggs.com. That's where you get the straight dope. You get all the real updates. And you can also follow me on list, burbiggs.com. That's where you get the straight dope. You get all the real updates. And you can also follow me on Instagram at burbiggs. And I also joined TikTok as well as YouTube. This is going to be on YouTube either today or tomorrow. You can watch the video version, which is captivating. We are two handsome gentlemen having a long, serious chat. You must see the visuals. They're captivating. I love Tom. He's got a new book out called We're All In This Together,

so make some room. It's great. All of his books are great. He's written a bunch of books. I think you're going to love this one. We work out a bunch of material. It's very, what I love about Tom, in addition to being super funny, he's just super honest. Very open book. And he wrote a book. So it's all coming full circle. Enjoy my conversation with the great Tom Papa.

So you and I met. Yes. I mean, roughly 20 years ago. It was longer. Might have been 22 years ago. 21 years ago. I mean, I had just moved to New York, and I opened for you. Were you in New York yet? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I opened for you in Jersey, I think. At the Catch a Rising Star. Yeah, you and Cynthia, your wife. In the Hyatt Hotel. Yeah, when we met, the Hyatt Hotel in Princeton, New Jersey. Yeah.

I think. Catch a Rising Star. It was a comedy club in a hotel. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure I drove to and fro with you. I hitched a ride with you and your wife, Cynthia, who is the feature act. I was the emcee.

What do you remember? I don't remember the ride. But I remember being there and being relieved when I saw you because you were really funny. And Cynthia and I had been there. She was performing or I was performing I don't think we were

both on the show the time before and there was this horrible comedian I think he was the headliner actually it was horrible and he did like

this misogynistic thing where he would like beg women to take their bras off on stage what a different time and it was such a nightmare and so when we

were coming back to that it was like PTSD and you were on stage and it was such a nightmare. And so when we were coming back to that, it was like PTSD. And you were on stage and it was like, you just know, oh, this is a new funny mind. Oh, what relief. We were so happy. We felt like we adopted you in a strange way.

We did. We were like starting our little family. I remember perfectly that I told you and Cynthia that I wanted to do a thing, and this was before I'd written Sleepwalk With Me and any of my solo shows. I wanted to do a thing where it combines drama and comedy in a solo show. And maybe there's choreography to it. Maybe there's music to it. I don't know. Like it was kind of like this, I want to do something theatrical.

And you were two of the first people ever in my whole life when I pitched this idea to go, yeah, you should run with that. And it's really meaningful. It actually really stuck with me. Really? Yeah, because it's similar to your You're Doing Great book where it's, I think you have a yes and quality in your life. Which is a good quality to have, especially to other artists. Especially like young kid moving to New York doesn't have any idea what he's doing. Yeah.

It's so funny because on my way here, I was just, you know, in the car just thinking about you. And I was like, it's so great that he just made all this stuff. Really. Because I remember you saying, like, I make films that nobody will see or, like, I do whatever. But it was like now that we have some time away from the shop that you've been cobbling in all this time. Yeah. Like, I was just like, wow, it's just great that these things did not exist before. And because you went to work and made these things, they're now

a part of the world. It's such a great, beautiful thing. You're still doing it. You're still being encouraging. Stop it. Stop it. I'm a dad, Mike. I'm a dad. No, but it really is. It's a beautiful thing. People, I mean, maybe they do realize, it's so many people walk around thinking, I should make a film.

Yes. Or like you in the back of whatever we were driving, like, I'm thinking maybe I should do that. To actually do it is a huge, huge step. That's like my main piece of advice for all young aspiring artists. Make something, figure out what you could have done better make another thing figure out what could be better make another thing yeah yeah but then you and i we were friends you helped me

i opened for you a handful of times you helped helped recommend me to clubs. Then we had a falling out. Then we became friends again. That was our thing. Yeah. What's your version of that? My version of that. And don't be sparing. You can be mean.

No. You can be like, you were a jerk in this way. I don't care. It wasn't mean, but it was because Cynthia cynthia was like aware of it too uh and you know i hate to criticize any of us when we're scrambling and trying to find our way yeah because and there's we're trying to find our way you're trying to i criticized you at one point you came and you asked for something or did something. I don't even remember. I don't even remember.

But I remember saying to you, Mike, and maybe it was because you hadn't been around. I don't know what it was. It's kind of vague. But I do remember saying, Mike, every time you talk to me, you're trying to get something. Oh, my gosh. And you were like, what? I'm just trying to.

And you were asking for something. Yeah. And I was like, Mike, literally every time that you come to me, you're trying to get something. And you should know that it's obvious and it's not going to help you. And it's so hard because I don't have the things. We're all trying to get somewhere. We all want something from the people ahead of us. But there has to be a truth to it. Like it has to be kind of, you know, I wanted things from people ahead of me. Yeah.

There's a finesse to it. You know, there's a thing. Yeah. And for whatever reason at that time, it wasn't wrapped in the kindness or the we're still friends. It was just that. Yeah. And I said it purely because we loved you. I said it purely because it wasn't like,

fuck off, I never want to see you. It was you should be aware of this thing that you're doing because it's transparent. And that was where I was coming from. That's almost exactly how I remember it. The funny detail that's aside from that is you told it to me at the comedy cellar while I was sitting at a table on a date. Oh, no. I don't picture that. I picture me sitting and you being up. Oh, that's terrible. Other way around.

I was seated. You were up. It was a low angle from you to me. And you said that. And you were right. Look how I'm hugging myself. It's so, it was. First of all, you were right.

It's a great Achilles heel of my 20s. It's something I look back on and cringe at and try to learn from. And I'm probably still doing in some way, shape, or form still. We always are. But, but, I was on a date. That's terrible. It was before I met Jen and it was like,

it wasn't even like I was on many dates, but it was like, you said that. And then I was left to be like, with this person, I was left, so yeah, Tom's my friend. What a fucking asshole. But it was very sobering. It was very sobering.

I didn't like it. It was helpful. It was tough love. It hurt. It hurt, but I think hurt can be good. It hurt a lot. I didn't like it either. But for me to do that, most people, if you don't care about somebody, you're just like.

Nothing. You just walk. Right, exactly. Yeah. The biggest insult is to say nothing. But I remember being angry about it, which means that I probably had my feelings hurt. Like maybe we weren't hanging out. Yeah.

Who knows? Like, maybe I had other people in my life that weren't being nice to me. Who knows? But I definitely was feeling sensitive about it. It was, I mean, part of it, I remember, was trying to tell you, like, hey, be aware of this. But why I was, like, angry angry about it i don't know well it's funny because like i feel like the the zoom out lesson and it's maybe for my life now still and maybe it's for anyone listening to this is like is like when you're creating things like you do need to ask

for a lot of favors right like it's the nature of the thing. And there is, your word is finesse, but it's like, there is like a contextualization of acknowledgement of like, hey, look, I'm really struggling to do this thing. And you completely don't have to do this. But if you could possibly consider this, I would love it if you consider this instead of like, hey, can I have this? Can I have this? Which I'm sure was probably my level of finesse, which is zero. Yeah. And I'm sure I had my own baggage and shit that was going on at the same time. Because I give people advice all the time. You have to ask for things. Yeah. You do have to ask. Constantly. You have to like say, you know, hey, you'd have this thing and you're in this place. I would love if you could. Yeah. You have to ask. Constantly. You have to say, hey, you have this thing and you're in this place.

I would love if you could. Yeah. You have to. But that can't be the dog just constantly begging for a treat. Once in a while, I have to sit on their lap. I think that's right. Right? I think my frustration at that time was that you were newly opening for Seinfeld,

which was a kind of a wild kind of flying to the moon kind of concept. Yeah. And so my perception was, because you were like in private jets with Seinfeld around the world and playing in front of these. And in my mind, and this is a classic thing, you look at someone else, you go like, they have it all. I can ask them, they have it everything. You're raising kids.

You have your own things that are challenges. Life never becomes not hard. Yeah. No, 100%. But I think in, at least in our business, there has to be, you have to have a friendship with people before you ask for stuff. Oh yeah. So something must've happened in our friendship at the time, you know, probably. Cause like I have this new book coming out. So last night, I want to send my book out

to all of my famous friends who might put a thing on Instagram about it. You know what I mean? And you look through the list of people, and there are certain people I can ask because we haven't really been close. You know what I mean? Like you go to text them and you're like,

whoa, I haven't texted in two years. Yeah. This is a big ask. Yeah. But other people who I have a relationship and we love each other, I could ask them. Yeah. And they can say no, or they could say, you know.

So like we're always asking, we're always helping, but I think there has to be a foundation of friendship. I feel like I regret that it was so biting when we had that talk because it derailed us for years. Yeah, I know. But then we made up one night at the cellar at the table. Like literally just like me, I think it was me being like, hey, I was wrong about that thing. And you were like, I was probably wrong too. And then it was kind of, we just moved on from it. Yeah. No, a hundred percent, you know. Which is, I think sort of how you repair anything is just conceding that you're probably wrong.

And the nuance of it is maybe not precisely what you're saying yeah yeah that's a good point and you also the care for the person overrides the i am i hate to say that but i am a scorpio oh no don't do this i know don't become this but i have this trait but the trait the trait that they always talked about about being Scorpio, my mother was really into astrology. And the thing was like when people turn on you, they're dead to you. Yeah. Forgiveness is a difficult mode. Yeah.

I'm uncomfortable fighting with people that I love because even when I see in movies and someone's so shitty to their wife and then she forgives him, I'm like, yeah, but he still said that stuff. Like, how can you let them back in? You know what I mean? Like I always have that hard, that difficult part. But with our little story, it was like, no, I really care about Mike. And it was like, whatever happened in that moment, whatever we were involved in, it was a lesson for both of us. I think as a friend, it was the intent to say it, but it was definitely harsher than I wanted it to be. But ultimately, in chapter six of it was, we like Mike. We love Mike. And it's like, why should that be? Why should we, we shouldn't linger and hang on that stuff. And even like today when I said, I called my wife, you know, in the morning and what's your day?

And I said, she goes, whose podcast are you doing today? And I said, I'm going to do Mike, Mike Birbiglia's podcast. She went, oh, Mike. You know what I mean? And that says it all. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

So it was like, yeah, it was a weird spot, but I'm glad we got through it, because there's been other people that you don't come back to. What was that era of the comedy seller? People were so mean to each other. Remember that? Of course. It happened yesterday.

I was doing my radio show with Fortune and I couldn't use the studio because Robert Kelly was up there. It was a scheduling thing. So I run downstairs to the Olive Tree and I've got my headphones on and I'm doing the radio show. And Robert comes down

because I had walked in on him and then I left. And he comes down and he just starts shitting on me on the radio he's like you can't walk in there with your big head

no one's you can't it's not a subtle thing you walk in there with your big your big fucking head and you interrupted my podcast and this is on the air

with me and Fortune and Fortune and my producers are watching and he's like you know it's not your studio you come to town and you actually

that's why you have Fortune on the show because she's nice. You're not really nice. And he goes, all right, I got to go. I love you. I'll see you later. And he walked out.

That's so funny. And Fortune was like, God, New York comics. They love to rip each other apart and then say, I love you at the end. And it's Boston too, of course, Robert. It's Boston. And so was Patrice Patrice was Boston

Patrice used to go big head Leah Mike big head Leah and I was like Patrice you got the biggest head I've ever seen in my life it's the biggest head I mean

I don't want to insult you you have the biggest head of any human I've seen not even a comedian and of course his voice was so loud that he would overpower anything you were saying oh a hundred percent there would be nights in the early 2000s

so mean where I would between him and Jim Norton who I love and and and I did like Patrice I think he's a brilliant comic but like um they would be so mean it would be and did they ever do this one to you you'd walk you'd go you'd leave for the night and then jim norton would go hey mike and then i look around and then they continue talking to each other as though they get you to turn back so nobody said said anything. And then I walk again. And they say it just enough that you turn. And then they keep talking to each other. And it's cruel.

It's so mean. Have they done it to you? Oh, they did that to everybody for a long time. Oh, my God. As soon as you'd be leaving. Hey, oh, wait, Tom. And they're all like, they got me again they got me again but it it's never stops i mean it's a love language of some sort like i walked into the cell on sunday night and i walk in and as soon as i get up to this is colin by himself Colin and Ava Colin Quinn yeah

Tom as soon as I walked up Tom nobody is happy that you're back in New York oh my god that's so good Colin's one of the great

like observational comedians combined with yeah being cruel to his friends. People like you, who are his friends. I know.

And me. And the problem with Colin, as opposed to the other ones, is that he's right. He's often right. He's so intuitive about human nature. Yeah. And if he says that you're, he'll nail it. If he says nobody's glad you're back, kind of no one's glad you're back. Right.

Or at least I'm walking in there acting like everyone should be happy. Oh, my gosh. I mean, he's like a laser beam. He's so good at that. Yeah. What's the meanest, what's the thing that people say to you that's the meanest and, like, maybe true? the thing that people say to you that's the meanest and like maybe true like they it's still in my head it's 15 years later from when he said it it was just so damn funny but there is a little

bit of truth to it when uh mulaney was on my i do this radio show called Come to Papa, which is like a variety show. It's like music and sketch and comedians. And Mulaney was on it in Largo. And they're supposed to be mean. They're supposed to be saying, I wrote the script. This is funny. You're supposed to be insulting me. They're supposed to be coming at me. I was thinking him and A.G. or Al Magical, somebody.

And Mulaney said, and Mulaney called me, he was like, get out of here he's talking to me, and he goes get out of here Jim Gaffacant oh my god Jim Gaffacant Jim Gaffacant was so

brilliant it's so brilliant and it lingered because it was like, ouch, because Gaffigan is always, he's always huge. He kind of does the same thing, but he's just so much bigger. He's huge. He's a great observational comedian. And a great actor. Yeah. And there is a sense of me chasing Jim in a way.

We started together. Jim Gaffigan is such a brilliant line yeah that one stuck with me oh my god it's so well written Mulaney is a uh Mulaney's a beast actually and his persona hasn't typically allowed for him to really shiv people and yeah when but when you when you start kicking around uh you know lines about comedians like gaffa cat he's as funny as they come well the problem with me as mean as the problem with this hornet's nest that we live in of comedy, you're dealing with brilliant minds. Yeah. You're dealing with very insightful, very truthful, very funny, very cutting.

If they, yeah, I mean. And to your point, the love language actually is insult. The true insult is nothing. Oh, 100%. The most insulting thing that can happen in a group of comedian friends is no one makes jokes at your expense. I know. It's really true. Because nobody cares.

Yeah, 100%. It's such a weird thing. And it's this odd continuation of coming from Massachusetts and being bullied as a kid. I mean, I was bullied, got beat up a lot, and then you move to New York, and I was in my 20s, and I'm like, I guess it's the same. It doesn't change at all. It doesn't change one bit. And it is like I was out on your corner. And when I got here, and I'm just like soaking in the neighborhood, and there are these three 65-year-old older Italian guys all hanging around a car,

ripping each other apart. Oh, were they ripping each other apart? That's nice. Ripping each other apart. Yeah, yeah. That's what you do in families. It's like if you can mock everybody, it's fun. We have a sense of humor about ourselves. And it is a great thing.

The problem with us is that you have the best comedic minds in the world taking a shot at you, which is there's no mercy. Yeah. Speaking of Italians, great line from your book, when Italians are trying to be quiet, they are emotional, expressive, and loud. It's like dead on. Yeah.

I mean, I think my wife, Jenny, sometimes is beside herself with how loud my family is. Like everyone talks at the same time. It's not unlike a comedian's table where it's just like the loudest voice wins. The other voices fall away. They don't even stop talking. They just blend into the ether. This is a quote from your last book, You're Doing Great.

You've written three books now, so you're making a lot of comedians feel bad about themselves. I'm an author now. Here's a quote from You're Doing Great. We're all somewhat unpleasant, which is another way of saying disgusting, and we're all flawed, all of us. That's what love is, finding someone whose flaws you can put up with.

And it's like a beautiful quote because it's unexpected. It takes a turn. It seems like it's sentimental and then it's not. Right, right. But by not being sentimental, it kind of is sentimental. Yeah. I mean, that stuff is like, that's all within my sandbox, though. You know what I mean?

Yeah, sure. I'll like, I did something about that I didn't like dogs. And Bill Burr was like, that's what I want to see. I want to see you just like taking turns on all the things that people expect that you would like and you don't like. Yeah. Like that kind of a thing. all the things that people expect that you would like and you don't like them. Like that kind of a thing.

But like for me, for edgy, I don't consider, for me, and it's just maybe it's a mental thing, I don't consider edgy like talking about dying or like any of the stuff within this human thing. I always think of it as culturally the hot buttons in the culture. Yeah. You know what I mean? Talking about abortion, talking the culture. Yeah. You know what I mean? Talking about abortion, talking about guns. Yeah.

I always see that as what edgy is, and I don't really go there. I don't. It's funny because, like, I always think, I know what you mean. I think that's the traditional understanding of edgy, but I also think that there's a certain type of edgy, which is like when you're saying something where you really might lose the audience on a personal level like i have this bit right now that is not done and i'll say it on here because it's working it out but it's about how like my wife said to me recently like i feel like you're not

happy and i'm like right that's the whole thing of me. That was the thing. When we met, it was cool. You know what I mean? It was like, I'm not happy, and I'm funny about it. You know what I mean? And then we met, and that was awesome. But I'm still not happy.

And then we had a kid, and that's great. But I'm still not happy. But you think it's funny because you're a comic. I can't get an audience to fully get behind it. You can't? Not yet. But I'm fighting it out. You know what I mean?

Yeah. The boxing analogy is like, I'm staying in there. Yeah. I'm punching. I'm jabbing. And I'm trying to find it. And I haven't found it yet. Seems to me like it would work immediately.

It's okay. I think that there is some degree to which an audience wants to, I don't know. It's like they want it to wrap up a little nicer. Yeah. You ever have that with bits where you're like, oh, they like the idea. They're here for the trip, but they want to go to a planet. They don't want you to be a bummer also. Yes.

They want, they're looking to you for a little bit of hope. Yeah. You know? And if you just bum them out and split, like, wait, no. Well, yeah, you have to bring it full circle, I think. It's funny to kind of take your wife back and, like, give evidence. But weren't you happy when we went to Disney World? Yeah, but look in this picture.

That's not a real smile. Oh, yeah. That's not a real smile. I mean, it was fun. Yeah, it was fun, but I wasn't happy. What about when we were at the beach that time and the thing? Remember when I left before dinner for a while i was crying in the shed oh that's nice give examples some kind of like we'll extrapolate it out this is another

one from your book you're doing great which i love and also like one of the things about you're doing great and i love your new one too but i just just got it, so I haven't finished it yet. Skimmed it. Skimmed it, yeah. Is that I love the You're Doing Great book, and I highly recommend it to people because it's very encouraging and yet funny. You're like a funny Gary V.

Like somehow you're pulling it off. Theoretically, that shouldn't work in comedy. No, I know. Yeah. I'm not cynical. You're not cynical, but you're real. Yeah. Yeah.

But I think that it's, I think if you, if you want to be real and adjust the way you're looking at the world, you should be less cynical. This is as good as it gets. Right. And that's okay. Like, we have this idea that it's all supposed to be so much greater and so much happier and so much bigger and so much more rewarding. Well, then you're going to be unhappy. But if you really accept this is where it's at, you'll be happy. You can be happy here.

Like, because you've already done it. You're doing it. You've actually, there's no finish line. There's no race that you're on. You're in it right now. Yeah. That's what you're doing. Pete Holmes said recently, he relayed a famous quote,

which is how you feel about your life right now is how you feel about your life. Right. It's true. Yeah. 100%. And when I started doing it, I took that title from my stand-up because I was on the road and I just started telling people,

you know, you're doing great. You're doing great, yeah. Whatever you're going through, and I had all these jokes, whatever, but I was like, ultimately, you're doing great. This is it, guys. Yeah. It's not going to get any better. Like, this is it.

You know, in a short time, you're going to be like, people are going to ask you to go out. You're going to be like, are there stairs? Yeah. Oh, my God. I'm like, so you're doing great. And I was just, it wasn't like a conscious push to have this be a phrase or anything. But people, the audience started coming up to me when I would sign books at the end of my shows. And they were like, thank you for saying that.

It's weird because I said that to my, I have a bad shoulder injury I've been talking about on stage. But I've been going to a physical therapist, and I said to him recently, because he does stuff that makes me in real time happier. Like I'm in deep pain, like chronic pain, and then I'm happier. And I go like, it must be really rewarding to make people happier in real time. To have a profession.

He goes, that's why I do it. Yeah. He goes, it's that feeling where you can actually help a thing and there's a result. And I think your comedy has it. I strive for my comedy. I think if you're lucky enough that your job has like a one-to-one relationship with helping people or making them happier in some, even the most minuscule of ways, I think you're super lucky. So lucky.

So lucky. Do you have to remind yourself that that's happening? I'd say once every few weeks. In your career and your stuff and getting through this set and getting through this Friday night. Every few weeks I have it. Yeah. Or maybe once a month I have it where someone says something to me. I remember last summer in Los Angeles, I was doing The Old Man in the Pool.

And this woman said to me, I've had a bunch of people die in my life in the last few years. And one of them was my dad. And tonight I felt like I was laughing with my dad. And was just like oh just hit me like a truck yeah i was like that's that's why you do it at all yeah no kidding i don't think i don't know i just like making people laugh when i was younger i just liked like being the kid who made people laugh. It was just like, yeah, you know. Yeah. It was just, that was just fun. Yeah. But now I'm seeing the depth of it. And, you know, we're all in it for different reasons,

but I consciously now remind myself of it before I go out. Oh, you do? Yeah, it's not all about me. This is about them. It is about them, yeah. And I try and be conscious of it because, you do? Yeah, it's not all about me. This is about them. It is about them, yeah. And I try and be conscious of it because, you know, it's not going to be like that for everybody in the audience, but it is a pretty huge thing.

And it's a corny thing to be like, I do it to make people happy and all that. And I have a bunch of comedians popping off in my head like, that's not why I do it. No, of course. But I do see no but I of course but I do see it a little bit at this age I see it as a kind of a bit of a mission that's what it's for it's for honestly it's for it's for the one person who needs it yeah in that audience yeah by the way I'm saying your shows only one person really gets it in your shows

not every show. I was just going to say, because I sign books, and some people are just running for the exits. And I'm there with a fresh Sharpie and not signing anything. Does Cynthia ever, does your wife Cynthia ever see a bit that you do and go like, you know? to ever see a bit that you do and go like, you know? Like, do you have to talk about that? You have to, you know what I mean? A little bit.

Like, what is it when the subject matter veers into what? Do you find that? I feel like it's a little bit more of taking shots maybe at the drudgery of marriage. Yeah. You know, because it's, and it's changed. Like when we're all young, we're all beautiful and confident and stuff. And the older you get, the more vulnerable you feel. Oh, interesting.

Yeah. You know, and I feel. Oh, interesting. Yeah. You know? And I feel vulnerable. Of course. I know she feels vulnerable. And so things can hit now that maybe you're a little bit like poking that vulnerability. You know what I mean? Yeah. And my philosophy is always anyone in my relationships

and my family should be okay with the jokes if we're solid in real life. Oh, interesting. And so if she's unhappy with a portrayal of her in a joke, it's less about the joke than it is about my not being attentive or taking care of her in real life. Yeah. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah.

It's like she, it's an indicator. If she's saying, I don't like this joke, that's a warning light that whatever that subject is, you should kind of pay attention to it. There's, in real life, you should be like, oh, have you not been telling her she's the most beautiful person in the world? Maybe not for five years I haven't. You know what I mean? Like, it kind of makes me look a little in like that that which is a lot harder to fix than just not do the joke there's a parallel between what you're describing

and journaling which is I always tell the listeners of the show because a lot of creatives listen to the show if you can grab a notebook and journal and write down the things you feel strongly about get them out angriest about, saddest about,

because you can start to read them back and zoom out and see your own life as a story. And when you see your own life as a story, you can encourage the main character to make better decisions. That's great. But I think that's true in what you're saying in relation to sometimes when you're on stage,

you go, oh, actually, this is symptomatic of something actually going on that I'm not dealing with. Right. Yeah. I had one where I took it out of my act where I go like marriage is like prison, but it's sort of like a Scandinavian prison where it's on an island and you can learn a skill and it seems like you can leave, but you can't. And it's a funny joke, but it had like an aftertaste to it. And so I took it out. Yeah. It's just like, I was like, it's not worth, the laugh is fun. The joke's fun.

Yeah. But it's not quite right. Yeah. It's funny because the way you're talking is the way I think with the relationship with the audience. Yeah. And, you know, it is such a kind way to go at comedy. Like that is a very, that and the other joke you told about not being happy. Yeah. Those are, you have to have real empathy and be very thoughtful and sensitive to think, like, I'm going to pull that because the audience is feeling slightly uncomfortable with it.

I mean, it is at such a level of kindness that is, like, you could go so much further. Yeah. But maybe that's what I should do, too. I mean, sometimes you can go further and actually it makes it better because the joke's better. Yeah. And the joke is more complex.

Yeah. Like in some ways, I think that joke, sometimes it's like a case of like, a joke needs more or it needs less. Yeah, 100%. Like you need to do five minutes on that or you need to do 10 seconds on that. Yeah.

Scandinavian prison, no one knows what that is. I know what you mean. I actually got it. If you just said prison, if you were like, prison, but like one of those nice ones upstate where you can learn, where they let you finger paint and it seems like you're having a good time but they won't let you leave. Oh, yeah.

Because I'm trying to think, what's a Scandinavian prison? Should i know what a scandinavian prison i got it from the michael moore movie about capitalism where it was like he went around the world to all these different places where they kind of do things better yeah and and one of them was a scandinavian prison and it was like oh it's nice yeah and actually like there's a lot higher rates of like reform people because they're learning a skill and all that kind of stuff. But I know what you mean. All of that description has just gotten in the way of you getting to the punchline.

Tom, please. It's in the footnotes. It's so funny, right? It's in the DVD extras. This is my brother Joe wrote this question, which I think is great. It's a quote from your book. You're writing about an ex-girlfriend who called her breasts her crazy aunts, which is a great line on its own. And she took them out every chance she got. As my grandfather would have said, she was a real gamer.

I loved her, but eating with her was a nightmare. She chewed so loudly, people at other tables thought she was kidding. was a nightmare. She chewed so loudly, people at other tables thought she was kidding. Thought she was kidding. She slurped soup, sucked on clamshells,

and chomped on seeds. Patrons would look over in amazement as she shoveled food into her mouth like her face was an angry wood chipper. Joe Birbiglia's question is, is this woman going to recognize herself in the book and beat the shit out of you? It's a good question. You have that, right?

When you do it, you're like, ooh, this one's close. I've disguised it a little bit, but did I disguise it enough? That's a deep cut. Yeah, I have friends from, that's from the new book, from the previous book. I had a comment about a friend of mine who licks their fingers and stuff when they eat. And I thought, oh, for sure, I'm busted on this. Yeah. They're going to know for sure.

Yeah. It's never them. It's never them. No, it's never them. It's never them. No, it's never them. It's never them. Again, people, creatives listening to the show, people ask me this all the time. They message me.

Yeah. How do you write when you know that it's going to be, people are going to read it? I always go, change the name. Add some details that aren't true. Yep. You know? Uh-huh.

You know, take away something, add something. They never know. They never know. You don't even have that many details. People can't even see. People can't see themselves. I know. Do you have any half-written bits right now that you're sort of like tinkering with on stage?

I'm working on this one chunk where it's in the realm of the great thing about 23andMe and these DNA tests and stuff is that you not only find out who you are, but you find out all your family secrets. We knew we were going to be Italian and German, but there was a little French in there. And I said to my mother, where did the French come from? She goes, oh, secret's out. Your grandmother was a little French in there and I said to my mother where'd the French come from? She goes oh secrets out your grandmother was a whore. Oh my god. And then I talk about how that generation had secrets

like they just did not talk about stuff. Yes. They were able to just able to or just did anything that was uncomfortable anything that was undiagnosed anything that was shameful in front of the neighbors, they just stuck it in the attic, just put it in the attic.

And I said, there's something wrong about that, but there's also something right about that. There's also something great that you could actually have secrets. You could actually not talk about certain things. And we've come so far the other way that we're there's no secrets to the point where we're ripping, tearing down

great people because they had a flaw Martin Luther King was great he cheated on his wife JFK was great, right? he had an affair with Marilyn Monroe Mother Teresa? she was a stripper in Calcutta.

I don't think that's right. Is that right? I don't think that's right. That's right. So this is the part that I'm working on is it's great that we don't have secrets. It's great that we deal with mental health. It's great that we're not putting things in the attic.

We are a little too into ourselves. We're a little too into what a luxury that we can all just be analyzing our feelings and our place in the world every second. And look, therapy is great. It's nice to have some place to go to talk things out, especially when your friends and family are sick of listening to you. It's nice to go call your mom horrible name somewhere. That's why it costs $200 because it's worth it. It's okay to go to therapy, and it's good to go and have an outlet. As long as you know you're not going to get fixed.

Right. We aren't robots that break and then go to the repair shop. We're constantly changing, moving, evolving. So why would you pay attention to your emotions every second? I say to the audience, so just to give a demarcation, this is the part that I'm, it's from that part, when I start to talk about therapy is maybe not the best thing to do all the time. Yeah.

I'm feeling the room wobble a little. Yeah. And then I say to the audience, you're different now than when you walked in here. I know for a fact, you're slightly different emotionally than when you came in. That's how much we change the weed's wearing off, the alcohol's kicking in some of you were wishing you hadn't peed especially in the center section

and I say sometimes I'll be at the kitchen sink doing dishes and this is obviously a whole chunk that I'm struggling with sometimes I'll be at the kitchen sink doing dishes and I'll think, I feel good right now. I don't know if it's the weather or I ate something great or got a good night's sleep.

But right now, for some reason, everything is A-OK. And I'll walk into the hallway, turn the corner and go, fuck this place. Yeah. And whose shoes are these? I don't even talk like that. And go, fuck this place. Yeah. And whose shoes are the, I don't even talk like that. Why am I even thinking this? Whose shoes are those? Why do I live here?

What is going on? And then go back downstairs and see my dog and think, ah, it is a nice day. Yeah. So the thing's for you. My question's for you. Yeah. Obi-Wan. My question's for you, Obi-Wan.

Is the therapy, am I off base in kind of figuring that out? No, I think the proclamation I think is really interesting. It's self-obsessed culture. I find it to be so relatable. I find especially the part where you go, the therapy part I think is a little bit outward facing in the sense of like, it's a, it's a judgment of culture in general, as opposed to it's about you. And that's why I'm more engaged when you start talking about,

I'm washing the dishes and I feel amazing and then I feel terrible and then I feel amazing again within the span of like five minutes. For me, I'm transported into your shoes and I'm like, yeah, I know that feeling so much. I wrote a joke years ago. I never got it to work where I go like, I go sometimes I literally, I'm just like, life is beautiful. Like literally the words that are the most cliche. And sometimes I'm like, cookies are stupid and they're not stupid. They're beautiful. You know, it was a joke that never quite worked, but like, it's the same kind of idea of like, of like, I think people can completely relate to that idea. And I think that oddly,

the more specific you get with washing the dishes and your dog and this and that, the more specific you get. And even like a flip-flop, like, you know, and then I stub my toe on a nail that's blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, why do I't we fixed this house after 10 years? Then I'm patching it up with a band-aid.

My wife comes over and she kisses me on the forehead and I go, I'm so lucky to be alive. There's a way in which it can go back and forth and back and forth with the specificity. That's good. To the point where the audience at a certain point is like, they're in on your life. Yeah. It's almost take out that wobbly part and then get into the flip-flops.

I think so. Take out that awkward bridge in between. Now, here's my other question. That's a great fix. Here's another question. I don't say fuck in my act. Yeah, yeah. I don't think i do either i didn't in the last couple i yeah last two shows and um talking about that audience and whether

or not you're pushing them away or whatever you know i have some people i know who are like it's the biggest laugh of the act right now when Oh, in that. When I go, fuck this place. Oh, yeah, yeah. It is the biggest laugh in the act. And I'll ask people on this tour, I'll ask whoever, is that a problem saying fuck? And they say, you saying that one fuck is not what you think it is. Oh.

Here's my argument. Famously, Jim Gaffigan said that the cursing in your act is like, there's nothing wrong with it, it's just using steroids. Right. Which I think is a funny way to look at it I always try to think like what are the alts that don't have the word fuck and there's nothing wrong

by the way there's nothing wrong with the word fuck and there's nothing wrong with any piece of language in my opinion with some exceptions but generally let's just brainstorm what other things could be. Okay, tell me the line in context, and then I'll say one,

and then you say one, and I'll say one, and you say one. Say the line? Yeah, yeah. I'll be doing the dishes and thinking, everything is A-okay. And then I'll walk out into the hallway, turn the corner, and go, fuck this place. Okay. Or, I wish I was dead.

Or, I hate it here. Or, I wish I had never been born. This day sucks. None of these are funny. No. They're not are funny. No. They're not funny enough. No. Screw this place doesn't do it.

There is a thing. There is a reason that that word has so much power. Yeah. And there is a reason that every single person in that audience, maybe four of them, have said it or say it because it is conveying in a very guttural, human level. Can I pitch one more? So you go, sometimes, is it the dishes that you really did do?

Yeah. Sometimes I'm washing the dishes and I think my life is A-okay. And then I walk into the other room. Turn the corner and say. I turn the corner and I say, if I died at this second, no one would notice. It's good. It's not bad. It's on the path. It's on the path.

It's on the path. Because it has to get, it has to just go so dark. Yeah. Right. It's got to convey the same emotion that that cathartic fuck is saying. And that you've thought.

Because I've thought that certainly. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of a, the I am a loser vein yeah i am i am lost i am nothing i am yeah death if a boulder fell on my head right now people would be more worried about moving the boulder yeah too wordy yeah like like right, it's terrible. Like, right? Like, you want it to... It's terrible. No, I agree. Yeah, yeah.

You want it short and fast. Yeah. Well, you solved the bridge. I think we're making progress. Mm-hmm. So the final thing we do is working it out for a cause. And basically, if you have a nonprofit that you contribute to and you think does a good job, we contribute to them. We link to them in our show notes and encourage our listeners to contribute as well.

Beautiful. You got anything? I don't help people. Perfect. No. My sister's nonprofit is called City Green. Oh, great. And it's in Clifton, New Jersey. And she has built this amazing, amazing organization that creates city gardens and learning gardens for underprivileged kids in Passaic and Patterson

and Newark and Clifton and all of these places. And she took over these abandoned farms. Wow. And she delivers vegetables to all of these communities. And she has summer camps and all of these people. This is gorgeous. Learning. What are you doing with your life? Citygreenonline.org.

I don't care. I make people laugh. A lot of interest. Jim Gaffacant. Isn't that great? It's so funny. It's so perfect. It's a strong burn.

It's the strongest burn I've ever had. Working it out, because it's not done. Working it out, because there's no hope. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. So much fun to riff with Tom. I have an update. Tom called me a few days after we recorded this episode and he tried a version of that same joke without the word fuck and it crushed. So there you go. Working it out. The podcast works. Does the podcast work? Yes, it does. It's helping millions.

You can get Tom's book, We're All In This Together, so make some room, along with his other books at your local bookstore. And you can check out his tour dates at tompapa.com. Our producers of Working Out Are Myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia, associate producer Maple Lewis, consulting producer Seth

Barish, assistant producers Gary Simons and Lucy Jones. Sound mix by Ben Cruz, supervising engineer Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall, as well as David Raphael and Nina Quick. Mike Insigliere is Mike Berkowitz. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their

music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J-Hope Stein. Her book, Little Astronaut, is in bookstores now. And of course, special thanks to my daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. If you're enjoying this show, which is at this point over 100 episodes, come on, three years in, come on.

We got a YouTube channel, come on. Go on to Apple Podcasts. Put a stars thing. Say what your favorite episodes. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Be a Jim Gaffacan and not Jack. Jim Gaffacant.

Actually, Jim might be coming back on the podcast very soon. But he didn't hear from me. Thanks, everybody, for joining us. We're working it out. See you next time.