Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 118. John Early: A Man With Needs

Episode Date: January 8, 2024

John Early, recently nominated for an Emmy and a Critics Choice Award, sits down with Mike for the first time since the two of them appeared as brothers in Taylor Swift’s, “Anti-Hero” music video. The two discuss avant-garde comedy, Brittany Spears impressions, and what it means to express earnest despair in John’s new Max special, “Now More Than Ever.” Plus, the time John ran away after coming out to his best friend.Please consider donating to: National Nurses United

Your stuff is so wild. It's so avant-garde, so strange. How do you know something works? I mean, I have to find it funny. I have to be fixated on the idea in a sincere way. But then it also has to have this kind of ring of like, and this feels so pretentious, but for lack of a less pretentious word,

poetry. What I'm getting is you're a poet. No, no, no. Your words. I'm going to echo back what I'm hearing. No, this is the lead clip. I'm a singer, I'm a poet, I'm an artist, but I'm also a man.

That's what I'm hearing. With needs. That is the voice of the great John Early. John Early is an incredibly talented and funny and sweet person. He's got a new comedy special that came out on HBO Max called Now More Than Ever. It is such a funny special.

It's really one of a kind. It's sort of a mix of sort of cabaret and stand-up. There's a band called the Lemon Squares. There's, like, sketches. It's very avant-garde. He does an amazing impression of Britney Spears singing. There's, like, there's a cover of a Neil Young song. It's just like a really extraordinary mix

of things that come together into this visionary comedy special called Now More Than Ever. It was nominated for a Critics Choice Award, which Old Man in the Pool was as well. So I'm going to see him in a couple weeks over at that. You might

know John from Search Party. You might know him from his special he did with Kate Berlant called Would It Kill You to Laugh, which was nominated for an Emmy. We had a great chat today. We are in the year of 2024. And I'm hitting the ground running with my Please Stop the Ride tour. I was just in Big Sky, Montana. I'm heading to Vancouver, Seattle.

I think all these are sold out at this point, but then I'm going to, here's what isn't sold out, Florida. What's up with me in Florida? I'm going to be in St. Petersburg, Jacksonville, Orlando, Miami Beach. Here's my theory. I'm exaggerating. A lot of people are coming to Florida shows. But I do think, like, Jacksonville, for example, has fewer people.

And I think it's because years ago, I did my Thank God for Jokes show there. And I got some complaints on, like, the Ticketmaster reviews that it was too dirty. Which, actually, that show, I curse a whole bunch more than I usually do, because it was the nature of what that show was about. So anyway, Jacksonville, join me in Jacksonville. And then Orlando, Miami Beach, these are all gonna be super, super fun. Then I'm going to Colorado, basically any town in Colorado, pick one. Aspen, Beaver Creek, Fort Collins, Denver. I just added a third show in Denver. And then I'm everywhere in Texas.

Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin, Troy, New York, Rochester, Toronto, Atlanta, Charlotte, Richmond, Washington, D.C. We just added Los Angeles and Chicago because the people have spoken. They've demanded I do a show in Chicago at the Chicago Theater and at the Ace Theater in Los Angeles. Tickets at Burbiggs.com. Be the first to know by signing up for the mailing list. Today, I chat with John Early.

He also recently directed the stage show of Jacqueline Novak's special Get On Your Knees, which is coming soon to Netflix, which is fantastic. And he and I know each other through that because I worked a little bit on that. We were in a music video together. You ever see a video that Taylor Swift did called Antihero? John and I play brothers. We're the imagined children in a dystopian future along with the great Mary Elizabeth Ellis. We talk about that today. I hope you love it. Enjoy my conversation with the great John Early. When I was first introduced to you personally, it was because you and I both worked on Jacqueline Novak's show.

I was like behind the scenes a little bit and then you directed the show beautifully. Thank you. Good on your knees. And Jacqueline, I remember being like, her way of describing you is, John is very serious about craft. You wouldn't tell.

You couldn't tell. So I love your special. one of my favorite parts of the special is the multiple times that you put a spotlight on your parents one of the times you say uh i love anal or something and then you go hard spotlight on your parents how much do they know and how much don't they know? I mean, there was like this beautiful moment in 2015, maybe 2016, when I did that to them for the first time. And they had no idea it was coming. This beautiful moment?

They were truly like, I knew where their tickets were. It was at Joe's Pub. And we had the most clean shaft of white light on them and they were totally shocked and it was like the most transcendent moment of my life um and they must love your comedy they do okay they do it's really really cool it's really sweet and my you know my parents were ministers yes and pres And Presbyterian ministers. And, and then I kept doing that to them, like, like once a year, like at the bell house and stuff. And so they knew it was coming, but I do think just like the cameras, the energy in the crowd,

their response, like them hunching over is like completely genuine, you know? And I think it was a thrill for them. I would like to think it was. It might also be considered elder abuse in some circles, but they love it. Did you come up Presbyterian? Yeah. I went to Presbyterian church every Sunday till I was 18 years old. I went to this place and did like youth conferences and I sang the songs. That was like the most meaningful thing for me. And the only thing I remember from church is literally, I'm not kidding. That was like the most meaningful thing for me. The only thing I remember from church is literally. That's how they get you, by the way. Literally.

I'm not kidding. It's like sensual pleasures like singing. But I stood next to my mom and she harmonized. She was such an incredible alto. Alto? Alto. And that honestly is why I like music. It's like from church.

You and Beyonce. Yes. Well, we have that in common. Oh, and also your Instagram handle. Yes. Beyonce. Yes. But Houston is similar to Nashville.

Is it? Yeah. I do feel actually a kinship with Beyonce. It's like a sorry to people who love Houston and Nashville but they're kind of like soulless cities oh wow shots fired two cities

there are obviously great things about both but they're just a little corporate and I feel like that's in me and Beyonce like high achieving like type A that's in me and Beyonce people always say that about you and Beyonce. High achieving, like type A. That's in me and Beyonce. People always say that about you

and Beyonce. People always say that. But I feel like Beyonce and I are both Tracy Flicks. Oh, interesting. I really do. And you're looking at another one. Absolutely. For sure.

And you have, on your Instagram you have this video of you on local national national television being asked about sex when you were like i don't know 14 15 yeah yeah iman anthony and john early are just beginning high school at university school but they know a lot about sex and they say that has helped with their personal decisions it's not this whole like what is sex you know You know what it is, therefore you have the choice to do it or not, you know? It's not this big, like, question,

just like, it's not being hid from you all the time. I think it's probably better that we're exposed to it. And your answer, 14-year-old John Early is so earnest. And when I watch that, I'm like, that's the kid you're making fun of now on stage. Yes, exactly. How much are you doing an impression of that kid?

I mean, he's like, the reason that video is so funny and is also literally still so painful for me to watch, even though I put it online. It's like, it is, I see trying to be such like a good little student and a good little boy is like so heartbreaking to me. That's the Tracy flick, yeah. And I think that so much of the thing I'm doing on stage, someone argued too much, but like so much of the thing,

especially in the special and especially with my parents yeah and and being like kind of like you know you know being a little angry adolescent like it is this very delayed rebellion yeah because i mean there's there's video proof in that in that news clip it's like that i was like i was not i i was completely buttoned up. So was I. I was just full rule follower, student government. I remember when my friends would want to try drinking. I'd be like, we don't need that. I'd be like, we love pop culture. We love watching

movies like I don't need that it was like thank God in some ways but I'm also like God is the operative word clearly I keep bringing it back but um

yeah in some ways it's like you're so earnest as a kid and we have video proof of it and then at a certain point was there an inflection point where you're like i'm going fully ironic and i'm going the other way with it definitely i mean that's once i started doing comedy it just was this opportunity to kind of correct the course a little bit. Yeah. But I have to say, the reason why this special is particularly special to me,

I think it is because there was finally a synthesis of the incredibly earnest part of me. Yeah, yeah. And then the little bitch. The little punk. The little punk me. Yeah, yeah. And then the little bitch. The little punk. The little punk who needs to, yeah. Yeah. And that is...

And a singer. Yeah, which is the incredibly earnest part of me. Yeah, yeah. The song Choices help kind of cut through that. But like the singing itself is earnest. And it is just about wanting people to have a good time or wanting to move people in some way, you know? And like, I've kind of, I've never filmed it

because I was embarrassed by that desire. It's, this is a weird thing to say about a comedy special. I feel good afterwards. Totally. I mean, that's the goal of also ending with I Feel Love. It's like, just just like I wanted people to feel like they were like leaving a party or like the party was still going on you know it and and that's also why Bette Midler and Sandra Bernhardt are like such

they're like my primary live performance influences is because of their relationship to music especially and like they they don't do comedy songs right they just kind of like they'll be wild and hilarious and then they just click into a totally sincere song which is kind of old school your stand-up like my stand-up is, in a certain way, straightforward in the sense that I go to clubs, I try out 10 jokes, and I sandwich them in between five minutes that work at the front, five minutes that work at the back. And then eventually I have new jokes.

And then I formulate those jokes into a thing. Your stuff is so wild. Like it's so avant-garde, so strange. It's like, how do you know something works? And how do you know you're like, that's it? Well, you know, I guess in the kind of traditional sense, like I do, like I did go on tour before this and it was very clear, very quickly what worked

and what didn't based on people's responses. But I also think just internally, there does have to be a feeling of like, I mean, I have to find it funny. I have to find or be fixated on the idea in a sincere way. It can't be kind of reverse engineered. It has to be something that I genuinely find funny. But then it also has to have this kind of like ring of like,

and this feels so pretentious, but like for lack of a less pretentious word, poetry. Like a little bit of like a... Oh. Who are we even looking at? Look at the wall. But like I just, it did have a kind of like like I was trying

to sincerely underneath the silliness say something communicate a kind of like despair about the state of the world knowing that it was maybe a little abstract but there was like something very sincere underneath it

and feeling that people were that i didn't have to explain it that i could just kind of like drop it and people understood what was underneath it and that part of the joy of it and what was funny was that it was abstract and i was just going like yeah you know like that's it's very vague what i'm saying, but that was great. What I'm getting is you're a poet. No, no, no. Your words. I'm going to echo back what I'm hearing. No, this is the lead clip.

I'm going to echo back what I'm hearing. I'm a poet. I'm a singer. I'm a poet. I'm an artist. But I'm also a man. Oh, no. That's what I'm hearing.

With needs. but I'm also a man that's what I'm hearing with needs that was in my sexual prime in Brooklyn in my 20s which is one of the lines from the show that I love I wasted my sexual prime here

it's so real it's absurd that's a very confessional moment in the special I think because it's like a thrown away ironic line but there is a sense under it that like, oh yeah, he probably feels that way a little bit. Oh, it's literally how I feel when I walk onto the stage.

I'm like, what did I do? I'm looking out and I have fans. People like me and I didn't have sex. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. You're still in your sexual prime. Thank you. You're a young guy. You're still in your sexual prime. Thank you. You're a young guy. You're a young looking, good looking guy.

Yeah, thank you. But don't do that thing that you just did. That's not sort of codifying it. Got it. Do you know what I mean by that? Yeah, yeah. It's pushing people away. So let's do it again.

We'll do it again. So you're a sexy young man. Thank you. That's what I'm thinking about. Thank you. Just want to get it on record. You're just a deeply hilarious person. When you and Kate were working on your sketch show,

which was nominated for an Emmy. Oh, thank you. Did we get that? Did we get that? We got it. Okay. That must have felt good, right? It was insane.

It's so crazy. I can't believe it. That special's a riot. Thanks. But when you're working with Kate, like, do you break each other? Yeah. To a point where it's like,

come on, we gotta make our debt. We gotta get these things filmed. Yes, and I'm worse about it than Kate. Like, she is really, like, it's part of her genius or it's like part of what helps her keep going. I mean, she's just like, she's so committed and it's so real. And like in order to achieve that level of realism,

I feel like you have to fully do it. Whereas I'm like always on the edge of like laughing. So you're a poet poet she's a genius and then I can say that without any embarrassment she's a genius she is um but yeah I laughs I really have trouble I really it's it's impossible with her what are you gonna like this wasn't one of our questions but it's like what are you gonna I want to see more shows like the special. Are you going to tour with more of this? Yes.

That was the thing. Touring that show. I mean, you tour all the time. But I really barely do it. I was so maudlin after those shows, I would like go home and like call Kate or something, you know, and I would be like bursting into tears. I was like, this is like the most incredible experience I've ever had in my life. And I'm sure I'll lose that, you know, as you go on. But like, but I really was like, this is, this is heaven. If no one ever wants to put me in anything,

like again, like I would be so happy doing this. This is like a dream. So I really, really would. And I feel like I figured something out with the music and the comedy and like integrating them more. And I want to keep going with that. Yeah, because I think like, I get that because I feel like you're giving people

a completely original performance that isn't, it's like how you felt about Ben Midler. Thank you. That's the goal? I think it's, I think they are experiencing that.

I hope. I think they're like, we just saw. Sometimes Jenny, my wife, will say this to me. She'll go, she'll listen to the audio recording of me doing shows in D.C.

and she'll go, you know, you shouldn't make so many jokes at your own expense that you're working out new material because it is a special experience for the audience. So if you start to say that, it might take a little bit away. And the fact that you are giving it your heart. The show that you're doing is unlike any other performance night ever again and that yeah yeah the couple hundred people in that room are the only people who will experience that that's a really good point yeah i there it i i'm the same way though i'm like i have to preface

let people know like it's messy or in process or something you know and like but it is it's a really it's like when you see, after a show's over, and you see someone, and they're like, that was so great. And you're like, it wasn't? Like, last night was incredible. You're like, last night was like, the audience was insane. And it's like, fuck you, I bought tickets to your show. Totally.

When you and Kate came to The Old Man in the Pool and came backstage, I was so moved by it. But I was also like, I was nervous that you were in the audience. Oh my God. I have that thing of like when people I admire in the audience, I think about it the whole time. I know. I completely understand that I don't know what anyone's supposed to do. Because it's like you want people to come and then you're like, great,'m right now i'm performing yeah for this person who i admire so much it was so

cool seeing you at lincoln center oh thanks i mean and backstage all those posters oh yeah well yeah it's all these original there's the artist did that one right there in the bottom corner so cool when you sing britney in this special yeah you make the joke you go shout out any britney's song and then you and then you go i you know like i heard album three track three yeah it's like such a joyous thing and then you sing album three, track three. Britney, do you know the other songs? Do you know 10 Britney songs? Yes, because she has 10 singles at least. I was never an album Britney stan, but I was very into her as a phenomenon.

I subscribed to entertainment weekly yeah like as a middle schooler like that was my idea i asked my parents so i was very like again this is the tracy flick i like knew the box office i was like i was like why why west did not do that like i knew the letter score that they gave every movie. Oh my gosh. Do people ever, when you were touring it, because obviously you got the rights to that Britney song. Yeah. When you were touring, did you ever do any of the other songs?

No, I only, because we only prepared Overprotected. Oh, you did? Well, so with that band, we've done probably over the years, like eight Britney covers, you know, but none that we would be ready to just do on a moment's notice. We have to really rehearse. And like, so Overprotective was the choice. I had gotten the rights and that was what we were going with. And the joke was just going to be,

I will stand here until someone organically suggests Overprotective. That's so funny. And sometimes it really like, it never happened quickly. But sometimes it really just like would not happen. And I would have to like coerce it in other weird ways. Which was always so fun and fun. Once people understood what the joke was.

So we were in Taylor's video. Yes. You and I have this thing in common, which is not only were we in the video, we get asked about it, I think, in every interview. Well, in every family function now. It's a lot. Because we're a very small part of a cultural phenomenon.

It's hard. It's hard. It's hard for us. It's been hard. How did she know you? Did she know you from Search Party? Yes. Yeah.

And then did she just text you? Via Jack Antonoff, who I, of course, know through Jacqueline. Yeah. And then she, did she just text you? Via Jack Antonoff. Yeah. Who I of course know through Jacqueline. Yeah. And you. But like, yeah, just got a text from Taylor Swift. Yeah, same, same.

As I was like on my back after like a surgery and I was like, this is crazy. I was like, this is crazy. And of course, the responsible thing to do would have been to say no because of my back. But I was like, I have to do it. For me, this is how bizarre shooting that video was. I texted you and I said, hey. Because I knew it was a secret. Right.

And I don't know who knew they were involved and who didn't. Yes. I think I knew. Yeah, I didn't want to ask anybody. Because you don't want to bother these people who are all major moguls. So you just go, I'll show up on the day. Yeah. goals. So you just go, I'll show up on the day.

They texted you like, hey, are you doing anything secret like July 19th or whatever it was? And you're like, you're like, I might be, yes. And it was just very cryptic.

I know. It was so top secret. That was the coolest part about it was getting there and the call sheet said something secret. That was the coolest part about it was like getting there and the call sheet said something different. Yes. You know, it was like for a different video, like Taylor's version or something, even though it was actually the new single.

Yes. And that was really cool. I thought what was really cool on set was, because she directed it, was, first of all, the script was really funny. I know. Immediately I was like, oh, this is hilarious. And the second of all the script was really funny i thought i know immediately i was like oh this is hilarious and the second of all i was like she's really good at directing us and also uh the background actors i know like just like so calm and

yeah breezy it was like so nice i feel comfortable talking about with you here because we were it's a thing that we share, but like I try to avoid it in like every interview because it could be cut up and decontextualized. I'm just like, ah. Well, I didn't. Yeah, I've already experienced that where I like told a story on a podcast on Mike.

No, sorry, your Mike. On Moshe and Natasha's podcast. And they were asking me about it. And I I told this story which I think is so funny which is like where I where the joke I'm trying to talk about my own just like deeply embarrassing moment where she was talking to me about like I think because I asked her I was like is this the lead single I think is what I said and she was like well you know the music industry has changed a lot. They don't really do like lead singles anymore. They kind of like post like Beyonce dropping that album

with all the videos at the same time. It's like kind of like you do it all at once now or you do a bunch of things at once, you know. She's telling me this and I found myself going, I was like, we got gotta get back to that time I was like I missed that and I meant it completely I really was like I miss

like I'm talking about the Britney like the Entertainment Weekly of it all like I miss witnessing the narrative the press narrative the drama of here's the first single first video and then a few months later you get the next one like and then it's months later you get the next one. And then it's sustained.

You get like a year of like four videos. And it's just so much easier to kind of take in instead of like everything at once, you know, whatever. So I meant it. I was like, make this the first single. I was like, that's genius. And then I realized, I was like, I'm talking first single. I was like, that's genius. I was like, that's genius. And then I realized, I was like, I'm talking about the video that I'm in. Yeah. Like, it's so transparent.

Like, it looks like I'm just like, yeah, make this one the first single. Like, because I'm in the video. And I was like, oh, no. Like, I felt so embarrassed afterward. I mean, she probably didn't think I was doing that, but I was like mortified. But then, like, I told this that, but I was like mortified. But then like I told this story, and this will happen again, but I told this story on

their podcast and then because people are this is what I didn't realize it's like there's an army of people. Full-time job. It's either actually their full-time job or it's fans who are unpaid.

Unpaid full-time. Com it's fans who are unpaid. Yeah, unpaid full-time. And are just like combing through everything that's said by anyone ever. Yeah. And they're looking for any mention of Taylor and they're like, you know. And then there were literally multiple articles that are like, John Early convinces Taylor Swift to make anti-hero her first single. No way. And I was like

no way I'm gonna die it said John Early convinces her yes like as if it was it was John Early's idea what a nightmare

and I was like she's gonna see that or her press people are gonna see that and be like that asshole like going around telling people

it was my idea to make it the lead single which it of course was not the point of the story the point of the story is that I was like did you reach out and say hey just so you know this thing i didn't yeah i didn't i thought it was best to stay out of So this is called The Slow Round.

So do you have a nickname from your life that was really good or really bad? Well, the good one is Bajonce, which is stuck. The bad one is one that in sixth grade I tried to tell everyone to call me Bo, because my middle name is Bowman. I'm sorry, that was in sixth grade? Sixth grade, I was like, call me Bo. And not one person. It never caught on.

So that was bad. Call me Bo. Nothing? It's just Bo. Is this your middle name? Yeah. B-E-A-U? so that was bad call me Bo nothing it's just Bo is this your middle name? yeah B-E-A-U B-O

B-O yeah John Bo Early does anyone call you John Bo John Bo I like I love actually Johnny

I love when people call me Johnny it's like it's so sweet to me can you think of a time where you were so scared you ran away oh my god literally yeah i remember when i like when i like came out or sort of my friend the first person i came out to was like my best

friend in middle school and she was like i wasn't't coming out to her. She was like, we were like talking and I thought I was being coded. Like I was like, I was like, cause I wasn't ready at all. I had no intention. And I was like, but I, this is, I thought this was coded. So I was like, you know, when you've told someone something like your whole life, I was like, but then you realize that's not true and she was like yeah and then i was like but then you real i'm like you realize it's not true and then you have to tell them but you're worried because they think the original thing and it's and I literally was like

and she was like yeah and she was like are you and then I literally went like roadrunner I fully was like and I like ran to the bathroom like at our school we were at school and I like ran and I like closed myself in the

bathroom and then like I was like oh my god oh my god and she was like banging on the door and then I finally got out I was like, oh my God, oh my God. And she was banging on the door. And then I finally got out. I was like, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. And called my parents to come pick me up. And I was like, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. And then they came and picked me up.

And she was laughing. I was like, it's okay, it's okay. But I physically ran. It's like what she was expecting you to say was something so short. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. So then after you ran away into the bathroom, eventually you probably came out.

A couple days later, we like, I had to go back to school. You guys remember? Yeah. And it was just like, you she was she was like it was like she was like hi you know it was like it was like it had happened without me meaning to basically and then after that did you come out to your parents not for like six years oh wow yeah that's a long time. They knew though.

Right, right. I mean, they knew, I knew that they knew it was hell. And then I just like, you know, I did a little, I guess I did it in person with my mom when she like visited me in college. But with such, I was like glaring as I did it. Because I like refused to make it a moment. I was glaring as I did it. Because I like refused to make it a moment. I was glaring as I did it. I totally know what you mean of like,

of where you refuse somehow. There's something in you that's like, I'm not going to let you have this. Like the Hallmark version. I'm not doing it. Right. I'm not going to do the Hallmark version. I'm not going to let you have a narrative in your head.

And that's when John sat on the bed and he took my hand and he said, there's something I have to tell you. No, I was like, truly. And then what was her reaction? She was really hilarious about it. Really great. I'm very lucky. I was like, you know how I procrastinate like mad at her for no reason I was like she was like yeah

I was like you know how I procrastinate on like papers oh my god and she was like yeah and I was like well I do it with like life stuff too oh my god and I And she was like, yeah. And I was like, and then she said something kind of genius and I'll never remember, but it was like, does this have something to do with you answering the door to my uncle from West Virginia wearing your sister's communion dress, like first communion dress? And I was like, yes. It was genius.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. One of my first jokes in college when I started doing stand up was after a friend of mine like my best friend in college came out to me and it was he said I'm gay and I said I know

he said I'm in the closet and I go yeah but the closet has an NSYNC poster on it literally did it it might as well. I mean, it was just like long. It was long overdue. That's really funny. Baptismal gown.

I just want to make sure I'm representing her work on this podcast. Do you want to pick it up? No. No? Okay. Moving on. Did your life go the way you thought it would? I mean, in some ways, yes.

I definitely, I was hoping for the kind of like the Bette Midler thing. I want to be absolutely clear, and please leave this in, Mike, that when I'm talking about Bette Midler, I'm in no way comparing. I'm not trying to say I have the voice, okay? Or the cultural impact. Someone argued it's impossible to even have that cultural impact anymore

with the fracturing of media. But I did want to be like performing in New York. You're saying you're a modern day Ben Midler. Let me make sure I'm getting it right. You wrote me an email where you said, Mike, it's John. There's no email. I'm a modern day Bette Midler.

Do you understand me? And if you don't, I'm not coming on the podcast. Sincerely, John Early. Why did you write that email? I was scared. I was scared. But yeah, in that sense, yes, I wanted to be in New York doing shows. Yeah, so you sort of saw that for yourself.

Yeah, yeah. Even when you were a kid. Yeah. Sex is real. Sex is real. Sex is something people do, and you can choose to do it or not to do it. Sexually, no. Sexually, I thought it was going to be really different.

I thought my life would be very different. Like I thought gayness would be really different. Oh, interesting. Like I thought like, you know, I thought romance and sex would be very different. And it's of course turned out to be its own surprising, often enjoyable thing. When you said often enjoyable, it seems like never.

It seems like you're a hint of irony. Yeah. Often enjoyable. Was it because I looked directly at the camera? Oh, gosh. But in terms of art and performance and stuff, yeah. Do you think you're more romantic than your partners? Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah. I could see that. You're such a sincere person. Yeah. I can be a little treacly or schmaltzy. And that's the Presbyterian in me. That's the Presbyterian in me that's the that's the Presbyterian in you?

the Presbyterian this just in the Presbyterian church has made a statement they said we do not stand behind John earlier any of his statements about our church there's no printer

I don't understand what's happening. But what do you mean by that? That's the Presbyterian view. I think there's like a kind of Protestant kind of oversimplified maybe kind of like...

We're going to do this the right way. And I'm like cooking. Right. And I think that's in me. And it makes me as a romantic partner probably a little insufferable interesting and maybe sometimes enjoyable like you want you want things just so certain things yeah yeah i get that yeah and i don't like it it's it's a life of pain being like that is you're. It's a life of pain.

Being like that is you're signing up for a life of pain and just constant disappointment. And it's so unfair to your partner because they're always like, they have to measure up to something they don't even know. You're like, you have some weird narrative about how a birthday should be or how a meal should go or you know like or how a meal should go or how meeting the parents it's like and they don't share that for sure and then they're like

always falling short you know it's funny because there was like an article in the times over the weekend about like the things you should never say in an argument in a relationship yeah and i was reading about i was like and i was like some of them i was like yeah maybe a variation on that i've said maybe you know i was like pretty good on the, on the, on the quiz. And then the one that made me laugh was to never say, I never said that. Oh my God. I was like, oh, that's a good point. Yeah.

Because it's sort of like, it nullifies what the person's concern is. Yes. And it's like legal. It's like legal. It's like legal. That one spun me in circles though because I was like, but what if you didn't say it? Yeah, what do you say if you didn't say it? It was the only one where I was like,

yeah, but what if you didn't say it? You say, I'm sorry you felt like I said that. I'm sorry you felt like I said that, though I didn't. But then that's like the rule. Or you just, having not said that having not said that what's the best piece of advice anyone's given you in your life that you used

or for that matter like were you ever at tish and like you had a professor who said something where you're like i'll never on on i'll never forget that yes i had one professor who said something where you're like, I'll never forget that. Yes. I had one teacher who was like, and I do think this is like, it's like it was like a really straightforward physical note, which is why I was receptive to it. Because it wasn't, it didn't feel like therapy. But I actually knew what she was saying was like very profound. She was like, John, you're like, you're always like, your neck is like always like this.

Like you're like, your head is always up here. And she's like, you just have to let us see your face. She was like, just like put your head down, like move your chin down. And it was like, and I was like, oh, and I was like, oh my. And like when I did, I was like, I didn't cry. But I really did feel like oh I'm very deliberately kind of not letting people look at me

and I do think I do think that you just do have to let people look at you you have to let the camera sit on your face and let it that's basically what it is and that can be very hard

and there's so much contemporary acting too And let it... That's basically what it is. And that can be very hard. And there's so much contemporary acting too. Because people are so used to the camera being on them now. That's not... Looking at a camera and putting your image out there, that no longer costs anything. That's not scary for anyone. But doing that without doing this yeah you know like we're kind of like mouse and like changing your voice a little bit so it's a

little down here like like that i'm like so much acting today is like is this and like i'm like pushing your voice down and like you know i'm like it's like this is great by the way you gotta what you're doing right now is what we want can we just we're gonna re-record we're just gonna have you do

whatever this character is thank you we'd like an hour of this I actually do wanna do that I really really wanna do that character but I no one's giving it to us no one's speaking or singing

in their real voice anymore no one's it's really it's an. No one's speaking or singing in their real voice anymore. No one's, it's really, it's an epidemic. Yeah. What do you think are people's favorite thing about you and least favorite thing about you? Favorite thing about me is probably like, you know, I have a good time. Oh my God.

I'm funny. You know, like I think I like to bring people together. I like to, I'm a social person, like to bring people together. I think least favorite thing is probably this exact thing we were talking about of the kind of like romantic or like- Presbyterian.

The Presbyterian thing in me. That's like the, the, the, the sentimentality that is both that is in its, in its way, as I've learned over the years, it's like, it is kind of coercive. Like that is what people don't like about sentimentality. It's not just a sentimentality itself. It's that it's like, you know, it's like, feel this way with me. It's like, you should be up here with me. And it's like, and it's like, people are like, ugh, because I hate that. I hate when people do that to me. That's why I like was repulsed by like church. You're making me realize in this very moment that I am guilty of that. And that's okay. I think a lot of performers are.

of that. And that's okay. I think a lot of performers are. This very rarely happens on the podcast. No, I mean almost never. And what I'll say is I love the thing people love most about you and I love the thing people love least

about you. I appreciate it as your friend. We don't see each other all the time, but I feel close to you and I feel like I appreciate it as your friend. I mean, we don't see each other all the time, but I feel close to you. And I feel like I appreciate both things about you. I've been with you. And I feel like I've witnessed both things. And I think they're both wonderful.

That's very nice, Mike. I have compassion for it because it's like, it is basically like the question we all grapple with, which is like, or choose not to grapple with, choose to like run away from, which is like, is life meaningless? And do I create my own meaning or is it happening to me? And that's, I think sentimentality comes from a desire

to like for things to be meaningful and to not look at the void. To format things into rituals and meaningful symbols. Which can be so helpful for people, you know. No, completely. And also suffocating for those closest to you. Oh my gosh. All right, I'm going to work. I'm going to just tell you a couple bits I'm working on.

And if you have thoughts on, or memories or anything, if it strikes anything. And also feel free to throw in any, if you're working on anything that's sort of half-baked right now too. My God, I wish. I wish. Okay, I tell like a long elaborate story about my daughter going to birthday parties and how essentially like when your child is eight, you go to birthday parties like 365 days a year

and you're just like, she has eight friends. Like there's some kind of fraud going on here. I think some of these kids are claiming 20, 30 birthdays a year and they're just, all these kids are just so excited. Everybody's just so excited about being alive except me. And I have to drive. And you really want the driver to be excited about life. The other half-baked thing is I took her to this birthday party

at this place called Urban Air, which is hell. And I've gone before to Urban Air, and I was just like, I'm not going in again. So Jenny went in with Luna, and I circ gone before to Urban Air and I was just like, I'm not going in again. So Jenny went in with Luna and I circled the block. I have a joke in my show right now and I don't think it's ever going to work but it makes me laugh. Good parents take their kids to birthday parties.

Great parents circle the block. To always be ready? Yeah, yeah. Oh my God, that's so good. Circle the block. It's like one of those things that sometimes in my shows I'll go like, you know, you might come see me in six months or a year. You go, that's funnier.

That's better. And a lot of times I'll be like, that joke will not be in the show. But that's a perfect example. The Circle of Block thing, just the metaphor doesn't complete. I don't know. I think it does have its own internal poetry. That I'm always chasing after, as you know. Speaking of which, like when you were directing Jacqueline,

what do you think was the most helpful note where you would give consistently in that show? Because I love that show so much. I think just like, I mean, it was so, it was like all her obviously, like directing is a bold, you know, name for me, for my title. But um the thing that i just think was like always reminding her to like to not forget and this is and this is just such a

basic kind of theater thing is like not to not forget that people aren't hearing this for the first time because like she is so she's has such a brilliant mind and like and her argument is her arguments plural are so like dense and like um intricate and like and she was very focused obviously on the the clarity of those arguments and i was always like well part of the clarity can just be like pretend like you're at dinner with me yes and just talk to me across the table and like explain it to me how you would explain at dinner. And like, I would be like, you know, like dumb, you know? And so you would like, you would like really slow it down.

And like, you'd be checking in with me to see if I'm getting it. And, you know, so it was always like dinner, just like keep it at dinner. And that'll help lock you into a kind of relationship with the audience. I love that. That's great advice.

I feel like I've both given that advice and received that advice from my directors at Bearish. I have to hear it. It's one of those things, no matter how many times you hear a piece of advice, if it's as good as the advice you're saying right now, and I actually would project that out to anyone who's listening to this

who's a comic or a solo performer. It's like, remind yourself, every show, they have not heard the words. Yeah, yeah. They don't know the words. Yeah. It's an entirely new concept. No, I know.

It's crazy. And it makes it so much more fun. Yeah. And I think there's like something, I think Jacqueline and I relate, like we both are very kind of embarrassed by like the fundamental like premise of comedy sometimes of like that you have, like the kind of the social contract is that you have to kind of say it as if

you're saying it for the first time and your eyes have to dart up to your memory or like you pull words from, even though you know what the word is, you still have to kind of perform like you're like kind of figuring it out. And like, it's, and there's something, I think we both are like,

so like, ew, but then it's like, well then the other, then what, what are you without that? Like without that device of like working through it for the first time, you're like completely figured out and like what you're like a performance artist who's like saying

words you know it's like it's it's so generous to be it's so much more generous to pretend to be conversational and intimate with an audience than it is to do some sort of strange thing where it's already figured out. Right. Where you're like presenting your thesis. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. I brought you here today to convince you of one thing.

Yeah. And then this is the other one. So Jenny and I, for our daughter's sixth birthday, we asked her, we go, what would be like your favorite thing that we could do for your birthday? And she said, I want you and mom to dress up like clowns. That's so sweet. So Jenny and I went to a costume shop.

We got the full makeup. We got full outfits. We woke her up on her birthday. We said, happy birthday. She started crying. No, no, no. And I think she still thought she was in a dream. Yeah.

And we were just like, no, we just, no, it's us. And then we're just like, we're so sorry. What's wrong? She goes, when I said you should dress up as clowns, I meant that I would walk you around town and people would laugh at you. And that's when I realized. Like sadistic little girl. That's when I realized that she wanted to be my manager.

She wanted to make 10% on top of 100%. Well, this has to go on the show. I love this. Jenny literally said the other day, because she was listening to the show, she goes like, it's almost like the title of the show should have something to do with clowns. Yeah.

Because there's something metaphoric about the way in which we try to please the people who we love. And in the process, we're clowns. Yeah. The last thing we do is working out for a cause. Is there an organization you like to donate to? I will donate to them.

I will link to them in the show notes and encourage others to donate as well. I would like to choose. Why the voice? Why the voice because I just do want to let the audience in on my search for the actual name of this place which is

what search there was a search we took a break to search the National Nurses United the largest nurses union in the country. And I, and I, and you know, I don't, we all in 2016 got very charity pilled. You know, it was very like,

here's the thing that you can donate to. And I think giving to unions is a smart way to make sure your money is getting used directly. Awesome. Yeah. Well, I will contribute to National Nurses United. I will link to them in the show notes. John Early, I never say this.

I don't think I've ever said this. I feel like I have a lot of thinking to do. I think a lot of thinking and reflecting. I'm honored. It was a very deep conversation. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. And I urge people to watch your special.

It's one of a kind. Thank you, Mike. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. I love talking to that John Early. You can check out his special, now more than ever, on Max. You can follow John on Instagram at BJonce. Like Beyonce, except it's BJonce. And you can watch the full video of that interview

on my YouTube channel at Mike Birbiglia. Check that out and subscribe because we're going to be posting more and more videos there. Check out birbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about my upcoming tour dates. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia, associate producer Mabel Lewis,

assistant producer Gary Simon, sound mix by Kate Belinsky, special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music, J-Hope Stein, and our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, rate us on Apple Podcasts. Tell

your friends, tell your enemies. You might tell your friend. And you go, hey, you know how you've been meaning to tell someone something and you say, hey, there's this thing and I know I've been putting this off

and they're like, right, working it out. It's a podcast where a comedian talks with comedian friends and they work out jokes and you go, yeah, that was easy.

Thanks for working it out, everybody. See you next time.