Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 121. Maddie Wiener: How to Find the Humor in a Panic Attack

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

Maddie Wiener started performing stand-up at age 16. Now, at age 25, she headlines clubs, is a fixture at the Comedy Cellar, and  she was recently a special guest on Mike’s shows at The Wilbur in Boston. Now Maddie and Mike sit down for a chat about the relationship between anxiety and comedy, and Mike helps Maddie develop a story about a panic attack. Plus, the wisdom Maddie learned from Nikki Glaser, and why “Hey, can we talk?” is the scariest text you can get.Please consider donating to Liberation Library

This weekend, I was at a club and I told a story about having a panic attack. And I walked people through what it felt like. I felt like I was going to die imminent. Really, the dark thoughts. Have you ever had a panic attack? Oh, you're speaking my language. Brother, have I? Yeah, I had my first panic attack when I was seven years old.

Yeah, I honestly love talking about it. We have medics on site here today in case you have a panic attack. I thought you were trying to upstage me of like, yeah, that's cute. You were seven. Well, I run around with a doctor trailing me at all times. So call me when that happens. What if working it out had an in-house doctor? What if we had an in-house doctor, in-house psychiatrist?

I'm riffing something. You're like, that actually sounds like a problem. Can we get you in here, please? Let's explore that further. That is the voice of Maddie Wiener. Maddie is a phenomenal young comic. She's a fixture at the Comedy Cellar in New York City. This is a super fun episode we have today.

I think you're going to love it. The tour started in Boston. It continued in January in the Pacific Northwest. I was in Walla Walla, Seattle, Portland, Vancouver. And this week, I am headed to Florida. There's a great, if you're on my Instagram, I posted a Florida review from Jacksonville from many years ago

when someone said they didn't like my language. Sometimes they don't like your language in Jacksonville. I talked about sex, coarse language, use coarse language, and discuss drugs slash heroin, which was, I think, the Muppets bit. It's the story about the Muppets. It's really, actually, a really silly story. But sometimes in comedy, one is misunderstood. But I can assure you Floridians, there's no discussion of drugs slash heroin or even sex that much. So this week, I'm headed to St. Petersburg, which is almost sold out. And then Jacksonville.

And then after that, I'll be in Orlando, which is almost sold out, as well as Miami Beach. We just added a third and final show at the Chicago Theater in Chicago. All the best seats, you can get them now. I'm so excited. I was going to do one show at the Chicago Theater. Now I'm doing three. We also added a second show in Atlanta at the Tabernacle. It's a gorgeous, gorgeous theater.

Also, there are a few tickets left for the added third show in Denver at the Paramount, which I love. Also, if you're anywhere near Colorado, I'll be in Aspen at like a gorgeous little opera house that I was at many years ago. And I'll be in Beaver Creek, Colorado. I also just added Tulsa for the first time on my tour ever. I will be performing in Tulsa based on peer pressure from our guest Sterling Harjo

a couple years ago on the show. Convinced me to visit Tulsa. And I've also just heard so many great things about it. I'll also be all over Texas, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio,

and then three shows in Austin, Texas at moon tower comedy festival at the Paramount. I'll be at gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous theater, like a perfect theater. It's actually a theater where we premiered my movie. Don't think twice many years ago. And

then of course I'll be in Los Angeles. I'll be in Troy, New York. I'll be in Toronto. I'll be in Richmond. And we added a third show in Washington, D.C. And I'll be in Niagara Falls. And then Sag Harbor. If you're anywhere near the Hamptons in July, I'm performing four shows at the Intimate Bay Street Theater, which is like a gorgeous little theater that I love, love, love, love, love. This is a great chat with Maddie Wiener. We talk a lot about anxiety and panic attacks in a pretty candid way. I think it's like anxiety is definitely a recurring theme on this show, which is great. I think it's great when comedians are open and honest about their own personal challenges.

And Maddie is a great example of that. She's a young comic that is just on the rise and you should pay attention to now. Go see her live if she's coming to your town. And enjoy my chat with the great Maddie Wiener. We're working it. Enjoy my chat with the great Maddie Wiener. I remember being in a car with Nikki Glaser, and we were talking about something,

and she wasn't, like, running bits. Like, we were just having a conversation, and then I watched her get on stage, and it was, like, just a bit immediately, and it had happened, like, that day. And I was like, oh, this is like watching someone. It seems like the difference between like when you're learning a language and you have to like translate it in your head versus when it finally clicks and you're just like thinking in that language. I was like, oh, you're fluent in how to just like think in funny things. And it was like really interesting to watch.

Yeah. Fluent in thinking funny things, I think is one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is like taking thoughts and configuring them into jokes. So like I, you're one of your jokes I've repeated to a lot of people, like my wife, Jenny, and like a lot of like friends is like the subway joke. I saw you at the salad or do the subway joke. And thank you. Can you do it just so people understand what I'm referencing? The bit is basically just that Subway sells sandwiches by the foot and then I'm like, that doesn't even measure

food that's a distance. A foot is when you're here and then over here and we were like, oh, that much sandwich, please. It's like eating pizza by the acre. It's like a psychotic way to think about it. I love that and it's like that's a perfect example of like you took a thought and that occurs to you you write it down

is it immediately a joke or is it that your brain is trying to learn how to configure jokes and then you do it later that one was I was like a foot is I think it started off as like a foot is so it the quantity is so much and then when i was like oh that's like not that's a distance yeah yeah then i was kind of like i riffed it from there on stage a few times but that was pretty like fully like do you know you know when like uh sometimes you're like oh i just found a funny thing and it works and all i have to do is that and then sometimes you're like oh i have a just found a funny thing and it works and all I have to do is that. And then sometimes you're like, oh, I have a thought that I know is interesting. And because it's interesting, I know there can be something funny about it. But I haven't gotten it there yet.

Yeah. Like I feel like that's... You mean my whole act? Is this a subtweet in real time on my podcast? I mean like I feel like because I'm only like nine, ten years in, so I feel like I'm at this weird tipping point, and then I watch more experienced comics be able to, like, have something that they have a conviction about

and communicate it in a funny way, versus I feel like when you're starting, it's kind of like, oh, I found something funny, let me keep that gem. Right. Versus like, no, no, I know what I want to say, and I'm going to make it funny. Yeah. You know what I mean?

And the subway joke was kind of just like, oh, I found that kind of fully formed, and it was not a lot of editing needing to be done. I had that on my last special with Airbnb, there's no breakfast. It's like, this is the most misleading acronym. It's like, but that was like that, where I'm like, wait, did nobody notice us?

But that's how I feel about the subway joke. And it's like, oh, you spotted this thing. Like, that's right in front of us. Are you like, do you feel like if you're on your phone or something, like, I don't know, I feel like those are things that you only notice if you're bored and looking around. And then it's like, you kind of have to like seek out boredom so that you notice little things like that.

I, here's my trick. and then it's like you kind of have to like seek out boredom so that you notice little things like that. Here's my trick. Subway, headphones, no sound. Whoa. So then you don't get people talking to you. It's just a busy sign on your face. It's a busy sign. I don't need room service. It's a busy sign on your face.

It's just I'm not interested. That's so funny. That's my trick. Headphones, no sound. They're not plugged in. You're just twirling them. Yeah, and then like you get to witness the movie of the world. Whoa.

And then just sort of write down what happens. That's fascinating. Yeah. Wow. Because that's where it all happens, right? I feel like so much happens on the subway. But I also have to be, I don't know if you have this, but when I go on tour, jokes about being on the subway don't always play.

I've had that with jokes about catcalling where I have to change it to like sidewalk or like moving car because they're like, we don't, yeah. Did you have a bit about catcalling? Yeah, I have a bit about uncles where I talk about catcalling. Oh, okay. Should I say that? Yeah, why not? Unless you don't want to.

No, no, no. But it's just that an uncle is halfway between a father and a stranger and that that's why they're creepy. I mean, it's like a dark joke. That's a great joke. Oh, thank you. That's a perfect example of the Subway sandwiches thing. It's like, yeah.

It's just a little like, here's what describing the thing. Right. But the place that the Subway comes in is, because a dad's like, we're so proud of the young woman you're becoming. And a stranger, the way I say it in New York is, a stranger stops you on the Subway and is like, oh, nice tits. But an uncle is just in the middle. Like, you're really growing into your body.

Oh, my God. And it's upsetting. But Subway, it doesn't quite click on the road. I have to say like sidewalk or moving car or like. Sometimes I change it to bus. Oh, yeah. Literally. But then in some cities, people are like, you ride the bus?

Yeah, like I took the bus in like Nashville, Tennessee, and people were like, what are you doing? It's rough. And it's like 45 minutes. It's like one of those, like I grew up in North Carolina and I was like, I didn't even know we had a public transportation system. But you can do it if you want to. Right. You change everything to an Applebee's.

That's an Applebee's. That's the subway of North Carolina. Do you ever find like sometimes on the road, you change it to something and they're almost insulted. They're like, do you think we don't know? Like I'm like, what you guys would understand, like a waffle house. And they're like, hey man, we have internet. Right.

I was driving my tractor. Oh, a tractor. All right. I get what he's saying about the economy. That's really funny. And then the other one that I loved was when I saw you at the cellar was the therapist,

the Overeaters Anonymous joke. Oh, thanks. Can you say that? My therapist told me I should go to Overeaters Anonymous and then I was like, if you go Alcoholics Anonymous, there's people from all the groups there. So I'm like, I can't.

There's people there for cocaine and heroin and I have to walk in like, oh, hi, I'm Maddie Muffins. Like that's not a great look. That's really funny. Did you go? I did. I went to a couple like Zoom meetings, which I've added a line to that now where I'm like, you can't do Zoom.

Like they got to make us walk there. That's very funny. Zoom is rough to just roll over and be like, oh, I'd like to change now. Like it's not really funny. I think it's like going to the fat meeting from your bed. Isn't going to like help anything. But I did actually go to a couple of them and I mean, in all honesty, they were actually pretty helpful. It was like a pretty cool group, but, but the thing that made me, I was like, I have to do a bit about this is I went on the website and it's like, would you like to accept all cookies? And then the joke I do is I'm like, that have to do a bit about this, is I went on the website, and it's like, would you like to accept all cookies?

Yes. And then the joke I do is I'm like, that's how I got here. Like, you can't. Oh, my God. You know what I found out recently? The seller messaged me on, like, Facebook, and they were like, hey, I don't know if you saw this, the guy who codes the website for Overeaters Anonymous

saw that bit and commented, and he was like, just so you know, we fixed this a few months ago. So apparently that's not true anymore. They don't have the allow all cookies button on the OA meetings. You have a thing which is you started when you were like 16. Yeah. You're 24 now? Just turned 25.

25. So you're so young. Did everyone hate you? All the other comics hate you? I feel like I'm now getting out of that like uh it's not like a quirky like oh I'm like mid-20s all right now I'm just kind of a dude but no I don't feel like uh I feel like having like a like 50 older brothers you know what I mean what do you mean by that like I feel like uh because I started young like I started in North Carolina and it was like the scene there was such a tight-knit like family it was it was just like having like a bunch of

older like if I was like oh I'm dating someone and they're like all right man well just so you know like if you mean it's like having like 30 dads with a shotgun like they were all like very cool and uh I think a little bit like paternal which is sweet yeah because it is like stand-up comedy is kind of overrun with men yeah right yeah I mean but in a way that like and I have female friends that I like love too but I do think I have like a weird uh I had a weird entry point because I never really had I got lucky I haven't had any guys be creepy to me because I think I was 16. It was kind of like, all right, you're like the,

you know what I mean? Like class pet or something. It was like, no one's gonna, yeah. So like, I've thankfully. Well, there's one comedian who would have been really interesting. Well, it might be a couple, unfortunately. Jesus.

Do you ever have stuff, because you, have stuff because you I feel like you discovered early on to just talk about your own life a little bit yeah

versus like just doing observational stuff I feel like when I started it was observational stuff because I was like so not a you know what I mean it's like what do you talk about

when you're 16 right but then it was like yeah the stuff that works is always the stuff that it's like oh I gotta get this out. Do you ever feel like I struggle to feel anger in my own life in some ways

just because I'm scared to and I'm kind of a people pleaser and I don't want to be? It's repressed is the word you're looking for. Yeah, repressed. I've repressed anger. Thank you. No, but I like the dealing with certain things like, like, oh, talking about personal things. It's like, maybe this sounds cheesy and overdone,

but it is like cathartic because it's like things that I wouldn't necessarily get angry about in real life. But then on stage you can go, hey man, what the fuck is this? In a way that it's like, not only not, you're not punished for it, but people are like love that you just said that yeah like it kind of is the only place it feels like socially acceptable

to have anger to me i totally agree do you ever have things where when you're talking about personal stuff where you go oh okay i guess i said that yeah i feel like the yeah do you ever have like like someone will come up to you and be like, hey, so the thing you said about that horrible thing that happened to you when you were younger and I was like, how do you? Oh, yeah, I said that on stage. I forgot that people just know that about me interpersonally now. Yeah.

I have it sometimes where I'm in the middle of my show and I'll be like, huh, I guess I'm talking about this. Have you ever had that where you improvise out of some topic and then you're like, huh, I guess I'm talking about this. Have you ever had that where you improvise out of a topic and then you're like, okay, now I said that to a group of strangers? Now that's out there, yeah. Have you ever had that with a specific thing? Yeah, I'm trying to think of something specific of like, talking about darker stuff,

like getting groped at a party and stuff where I was like, oh, that was personal. Oh, wow. But then it usually like, but then I was like, oh, that was personal. Oh, wow. But then it usually like, but then I was like, it's kind of funny though. Right. Did it stay in the act? Yeah, but it's one of those things that I'm like,

I only do it like in an hour. Yes. Because I'm like, I don't know how to squeeze that in 15 minutes. Like I'm like, they need to know me enough first to be on board with that and know that like I'm okay and stuff, you know? That's interesting you should say that. Like they have to know you first to be on board with that and know that like I'm okay and stuff, you know?

That's interesting you should say that. Like they have to know you because for me, like, yeah, it's night and day in relation to like when I'm on the road doing an hour versus like at the cellar doing like 15 minutes, like what you can go there on. So for me, like, you know, I've talked over the years about having bladder cancer and all these kinds of things. And it's like, if you bring up bladder cancer in 15 minutes, you sure as hell better have an ending point that fucking kills. You know what I mean? Or else people are going to be like, what is this?

What did that guy just, you know, whereas in an hour, you can land it. Yeah, my friend described it to me as my buddy Kenyon was like, he was like, yeah, it's like if you walk over to someone in an elevator and we're like, oh, hey, by the way, something really bad happened to me and I don't know my dad that well. And they're like, what? And I was like, oh, yeah, that would be at that point in a conversation

that would be crazy. No, totally. Do you feel like as the years go by and you have an audience that knows you that that gives you more freedom to discuss things that you wouldn't, you know, go into raw with like just a group of people? Yes and no. Like this weekend, I was at a club and I told a story about having a panic attack. And like I walked people through like what it felt like. I felt like I was going to die imminent.

You know, like really like the dark thoughts that a panic, have you ever had a panic attack? Oh, I've been, oh, you're speaking my language. Brother, have I? Yeah, I had my first panic attack when I was like seven years old. And I've been dealing with them like, it's been the single biggest thing I've had to deal with in my life. Like I really, yeah, I'm on meds for it.

It's been, yeah. When you were seven, are you comfortable talking about it? Yeah, yeah, totally. And I didn't mean to derail your story. But I also don't want to talk about it if it's. No, no, I'm not. I'm in a like a safe distance from it to. Yeah, I honestly love talking about it.

We have medics on site here today in case you have a panic attack. I thought you were trying to upstage me of like, yeah, that's cute, you were seven. Well, I run around with a doctor trailing me at all times. So call me when that happens. What if working it out had an in-house doctor? What if we had an in-house doctor, in-house psychiatrist?

That's what the extra chairs are for. Dr. Phelps, can you come in for a second? Yeah, the extra chairs are for that. If you're guest, if I'm riffing something, you're like, that actually sounds like a problem. Can we get you in here, please?

Let's explore that further. No, but when you were seven, that's wild. Did you have the feeling of like, I'm gonna die? I remember like hyperventilating and my face got hot. And I remember being like, I need to, when you're like, oh, I need to like get out of my body. Like if I had an emergency eject button, I could push from my body.

I would be pushing it right now. I think I like stole a pen and I thought I was going to go to jail. And I remember like calling my mom over and being like, I don't know what's happening. Because yeah, I was in first grade and I was like, I don't know what's happening. And she gave me water and I was like, I stole a pen. I'm so sorry. And she was like, okay.

You know what? And I didn't even steal a pen. I asked the teacher to borrow a pen and then I lost it. So I took another one and I was like, the feds are coming. Yeah. It's over for me. They're still there. The feds are circling with helicopters.

That's wild, though. Oh, so the other night. The walls fall down. This has been a setup. The other night, I was talking about a panic attack. And the audience was, like, with me to an extent. But I always say this to young comics when they ask about telling stories. So I'm like,

you sure as hell better have an ending. And the other night I did not have an ending and it, and you felt it. Like you really felt it. Like Gary was doing the show with me and, and in between shows, he goes, you're going to do the panic attack story in the second show. And it was his way of saying, I hope you going to do the panic attack story in the second show?

And it was his way of saying, I hope you don't do the panic attack story again. It is so funny to walk someone through the worst feeling imaginable and being like, so isn't that rough? Yeah. So isn't that rough? It was funny because there were laughs in the middle, but I really feel like with stuff that's intense,

I think you do have to have an ending. The audience needs some kind of closure. Like to know that it's a button and they're safe and we can laugh at it? That's true. I always thought the most significant one in my life is I sleepwalked through a second story window like 20 years ago.

And I think that the reason I was able to tell it was that the audience could see that I'm in one piece. They're like, all right, Houston's all right. Yeah. Like the thing I have about, that I was talking about earlier about sexual assault, is this okay to talk about? Yeah, you can talk about it.

But that I had to add a line in where I go, I was sexually assaulted. Don't worry, I never had a bat mitzvah. So it was like, you're a woman now. Like you need something to usher in the new era. But the way that people kind of need that line to was like, you're a woman now. Like you need something to usher in the new era. But people kind of need that line to be like, I'm fine. I'm good to talk about this. So you don't have to be weird on my behalf.

Right. What's the bit that you do on stage that you feel like that's the most how you feel, but you can't say in your life? I have a bit about like poor fat is different from rich fat. Oh. And that, that like, that like plus size models are like,

I'll have like big boobs and a big butt. And we have to be like, you're brave. And I'm like, no, you're like a Pornhub category. You're not like the loose Walmart on the shoulders, like a meatball on a toothpick.

Like it's all in your neck guy. And I would never say that in real life but i'm like yeah man that's a different texture can i say of like versus like a smooth rich dude with like a just a stomach when you do that as a band do you have a sense you're like you wouldn't say that in your real life what would be the reaction in your real life if you said that i'd be like like if I just posted that on Instagram, if I just had an Instagram story that was like, hey, you know how poor people are fat different?

I'd be like, what? Yeah. I don't think, yeah, I think the reaction would be a big fuck you probably. Right. No, I think you're good, yeah. Even though I'm sometimes on public radio, this podcast is not on public radio. But yeah, I think in real life, I would never...

Well, I don't even know who I would say that to, but there is a little bit of on stage you go, hey, can we like be honest for a second? We all like notice this, right? And I've noticed sometimes with crowds too, I'll have to say to them like, I can feel you trying to be good people, but they're different.

And then that gets a laugh. That's interesting. It's like, okay, no, no, you have permission to, I know you had this bad thought and can we like talk about it? Yeah. And almost always it's kind of like, eventually they'll, okay, yeah, I also have seen that,

which is like interesting. So it's like I'm not wrong. You just didn't want to admit that to yourself. It's funny how sometimes you have to talk things through with the audience. Like I had that recently where I tell the story about having a heating guy came over to deliver oil. And I'm like this one guy shows up. His name is Jonathan.

And I go, he's a big guy. He looked like an oil cylinder, you know, like a thousand-gallon guy. Thousand-gallon guy is so funny. Thousand-gallon guy, right? So that, it was one of those things where it did really well, and then I went to D.C. a few weeks ago, and then it was nothing. And I was like, oh, they think it's a fat joke. And it's not.

It's just a big dude. You know what I mean? Like, they thought I was being, like, critical. Like, you know, whatever. I was just describing the person. I thought it was funny that he's, like, the size of an oil cylinder. The thousand-gallon guy does sound like a compliment from the 1950s. Johnny's a real thousand-gallon guy, you know? a compliment from the 1950s. Johnny's a real thousand gallon guy. You know?

So then, but then to your point, I clarified it with the audience. I go like, I felt the tension and I was like, I feel like you think I'm saying this, but I'm actually like, he's a big guy,

like seven foot tall guy, husky, and then they went for it and it kind of fixed the joke. Wow. That's interesting. But they almost had to get your permission of fixed the joke. Wow, that's interesting. But they almost had to get your permission of like, I know, I'm not saying that.

It's not even just permission. I think it's literally audiences being like, what is this exactly? Sometimes it's like the specificity of like, what's the point of view of the joke? I think audiences are way more savvy. Comedy audiences, I started in the late 90s when I was in college. Comedy audiences audiences are way more savvy. Comedy audiences, I started in the late 90s when I was in college.

Comedy audiences now are much more savvy about what is this joke about? Who is this joke at the expense of? Et cetera. And so they're much hipper to like, oh, actually, I'm going to choose not to laugh at that because I think this is at the expense of this person.

Whereas, and so sometimes, it's like you're saying with your joke, you're like talking through like, no, no, what I meant by that. I think people are nervous because of this, but don't worry about it. It's kind of like that. And also your unique case where like you're playing,

I don't know what they call rooms and club rooms. Like you're playing comedy clubs, but you're also playing like a bar in Williamsburg that does comedy one night a week or whatever. And then it's interesting to see what will work in both of those in like very, because I feel like I'm very like, I'm definitely very like, you know,

left-leaning Gen Z, whatever. So I'm like inclined, but then I'm also like, I love the old, I'm like a Bill Burr, like a stand up, you know what I mean? So I'm like, okay, if there old, I'm like, like a Bill Burr, like a stand up, you know what I mean? So I'm like, okay, if there's any. You like laughter. Yeah.

You're like one of those old fashioned comedians who likes to have jokes and then people laugh. Call me Mr. Old Fashioned. So here's a crazy thing about me. I like funny. Yeah, I get it. But there is like a whatever that, whatever overlaps in that Venn diagram of like, I'm like, oh, the subject matter of those,

of like alt rooms. I'm like, totally. I'm like, that's what I think about. But also the style of more like club stuff is I'm like, that's it. Yeah, it's like, well, one of them's your community. The alt rooms are more like your peers. They're like the people who you'd go out with on the weekends.

Were you not a comedian? Yeah, literally. And you actually had a weekend. I have that when I go to Brooklyn rooms. I'm like, man, if I was like cool and had gone to, but I skipped my prom to do like a standup show at a chicken restaurant. Like I think I kind of. I skipped senior week in college to open for Brian Regan. That's awesome.

That's so sick. So this is called the slow round. What are people's favorite and least favorite thing about you? Oh, man. Oh, that's a crazy question. Oh, man. Oh, that's a crazy question. I think hopefully that I'm kind to my friends, I would think. I think someone's least favorite thing about me probably is I have OCD and I get very anxious and I will ask for reassurance be like hey I didn't just do something weird

or hey I didn't leave the door unlocked and I imagine that gets old like that's something that I'm very aware of I should chill on I'm super cool on that front wait can I ask you that doesn't resemble me in any way, shape or form. Like my, my family has a running joke of like, they're like, you can't call Maddie and be like, Hey, can we talk? Because I'll, I'll, I'll text all of them and be like, did someone die?

What's going on? Blah, blah, blah. Like I'll like, my heart will be racing and it'll take five minutes for me to calm down. Like they literally have to call me and be like, did someone die? What's going on? Like, I'll like, my heart will be racing and it'll take five minutes for me to calm down. Like they literally have to call me and be like, hey, everything's fine. How are you? Gary is nodding his head right now. Cause yeah, Gary and I talk about this all the time too. This is how I know I'm mentally ill. If someone goes, hey, just want you to know things are okay. I go, oh God, things aren't okay. Like I literally, if someone was like, what the hell happened to your generation? God, things aren't okay. Like I literally, if someone was like,

What the hell happened to your generation? Like what happened? I don't, did I miss something? I mean, I'm anxious too, but like it seems like your whole generation is like this. I remember I was talking to Nathan McIntosh. I like, we were at the Comedy Cellar and I had like a stomach ache and I was like, I was like, I'm trying to figure out like what I ate or why

or like what, and he was like, your generation has to figure out, it wasn't to figure out like what I ate or why or like what and he was like your generation has to figure out it wasn't to figure out why you have a stomach ache it blew my mind I was like oh yeah maybe it's just that's what it is it's it's it don't sex me hey I love you everything's fine but there's a period on the end of it I'm literally like I'll never they're probably never gonna speak to Yeah, that punctuation just tipped me over. Yeah, it's insane. Sent me into a spiral. Oh, they use punctuation?

It's a legal document? Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was speaking to the president. Very funny. Yes, I am aware, period. It's like, okay. Do you have a song that makes you cry? I'll Follow You Into the Dark by Death Cab for Cutie.

That'll do it. I have that at the end of my special, my girlfriend's boyfriend's special. Oh, yeah. That song really, is it the same way for you where it's just it's deep yeah and i remember it's not the first time that we've had death cab as the answer um it's the third it's the third time rami yusuf was one of them yeah there's something about death cab's music it's like what do you think it is that makes you want to cry? Is it the chords? Yeah. Is it the lyrics or the chords?

Like why does – because it makes me choke up too. I'll follow you in the dark. There's something about it that's so big. It's almost operatic. It's anytime – and anytime I've like really been in love, that song has been like the thing that it's like, oh, if I hear that song and I think about this person, I'm like, goddammit, I'm in love with someone.

Like, it's like, if you're thinking about like, who would I, it's just gut-wrenching. That's interesting because it's, like, I think love is such a great stand-up comedy topic that like, I think sometimes is undermined, underutilized yeah because it can feel like syrupy but actually it is funny and it is it is funny to feel something so strongly that you do silly things yeah like that seems inherently funny yeah to be like I know this is crazy are you up on love right now or down on love?

I literally, I feel like I've been so focused on standup that I've just been like, you know, blinders on. Yeah. That I haven't even been like dating or doing anything. But I feel very full of love, like from friends and community and comments and that kind of thing. Yeah, like I do feel like a second family kind of love.

Aw. I feel very full of that. I love that. Thanks. Thanks. Wow. What's the best piece of advice anyone's ever given you that you used? Stand-up advice or any advice?

Anything. Stand-up was the first advice that came to my head, which was a comic from North Carolina, Eric Trundy. I think it was Eric Trundy. It was someone in the North Carolina scene, a buddy of ours was like, you go back and listen to your set and when you get a laugh, that's not where the joke ends. That's where it starts. And that, like early on, I was like, oh, that kind of blew my mind.

That's huge. I feel like I'm still learning and relearning that all the time. Because so often with your set, you're like, that works, that works, that works. And it's like, no, no no that's actually where you need to spend time yeah and i feel like it's so easy like especially in the first few years or even like i know i'm like still in the beginnings of this of like uh you get a laugh and you're like okay thank god and it's like no no you gotta keep going like like like it's fun to like listen back to your set as if it was somebody else's and then be like oh if i were them i'd take the joke there and it's like almost giving yourself that distance because it's so easy to be critical of other people yeah you treat yourself like another person you can kind of see where like oh why didn't they go that way and you're like

i should go that way yeah no i remember like opening remember like opening for like Jim Gaffigan early on and he, I did like this, what I should have said was nothing joke that ended up being like the title of that special. And he goes, if you had like 10 of those, you would crush for like an hour. And I remember thinking like, no, no, dude, that's my closer.

You know what I mean? And it's like, well, dude, that's my closer. You know what I mean? And it's like, well, yeah, that's what it is. You have to have like 10 closers. So we work out material on the show. Do you have anything you're working on? I do have one thing that I was thinking about as like, it's funny to me and I don't even know how to put it into a joke.

Yeah. But the concept of it makes me laugh, which is that I was having panic attacks, and I was having them on stage. This was like, I mean, fairly recently, like six months to a year ago, where I was like, it was getting to the point where like, I was having panic attacks, like on stage. And I was like, this is really disrupting my life. Like, this is gonna be a problem. I don't know how I'm going to deal with this. And like one of the things I was like, okay, I'm going to, I bought a perfume

and I was like, every time I'm having like a good moment, I'm going to spray the perfume on my wrist and I'm going to smell it as like a sensory thing. Cause you know, like smells that bring you back to like good times. And then I was like, if I'm on stage or I'm on the road or I could be wherever, if I'm freaking out, I can smell it and it'll maybe

center me back into like remind me of times that have been good yeah as like a hail mary yeah but I started doing that and then every time I smelled it it made me feel like I was gonna have a panic attack and it just did the pavlov's dog like the other direction and I was like oh I guess that means I've reached a critical tipping point where I'm having more bad times in my life than good ones yes and that's hilarious to me but it's not a joke right but I think there's something funny about that there's something very funny about it I think it is that thing where you the more you talk about a thing that you're neurotic about, the more you think about the thing you're neurotic about.

And it's like, yeah, it's just a spiral. And then it becomes a weird thing where if you've thought about it in retrospect more than you've experienced it in the present, it's almost like the object in your brain is the idea of the thing instead of the thing now. Like it becomes more about your reaction to it than the thing initially. I almost think as a bit, it needs action. Like in other words, like, so I'm on stage going like that. You know what I mean?

Like you're literally like sniffing your wrist or whatever. Which is also hilarious to be like, I'm falling apart so much that I'm like, I'm just like going for anything. Well, yeah. And you could literally just be like, so I came up with this tactic, blah, blah, blah. And then you could literally in the middle of it, just be uncontrollably going and sniffing. That might be like a fun way to go about it. Just because it's like action oriented. I don't know.

Thank you. No, I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. But I feel like there's a lot there. I do think like,

and I talked about this panic attack this weekend. I think there's power in just talking through like how you feel when you're experiencing it. Because I find that when I explain how you feel when you're experiencing it. Because I find that when I explain how I feel when I'm experiencing it, people just lock in to like, oh, okay. That kind of goes into the like, oh, I forget that everyone has an experience. I'm like, you know, a panic attack. And people are like, no, I don't know what that is.

Yeah. How would you describe your, like you were saying six or 12 months ago you had it on stage. What did it feel like? It feels like I am going to die. Yes. And I need to, I mean, my first instinct, I'm like, I need to run away

and check myself into a hospital. Like it feels like, it feels like either I'm developing schizophrenia, like I'm losing my grip on reality and I don't feel real and I'm going to die. So I feel like one way to attack that joke. What's funny about that? Well, I think one way to attack that joke is like, you know, saying, you know,

when I panic attack, I had this tactic, blah, blah, blah. And if you don't know what a panic attack is, for me, my experience is I think this, this, this, this. So what solves that is the smell of perfume. So I went to Sephora. Yeah, yeah. Because I feel like it's the ebb and flow of how dark it is with how simple the solution concept is. I think there might be something there. It's funny

though, but your story is an example of I think great comedy has tension and then there's a release valve. And you have the release valve, which is the perfume concept. And it's like, I feel like you should work more on the tension side of it and bring people into the

kind of horror of it. And fortunately, I brought perfume. I don't know if that's it, but like it might be somewhere in that universe. Yeah. So here's a couple things that I have written down right now, which is I have a habit of like over-talking things in my relationship where like i'm a narrator i'm like i'm doing the dishes you know what i mean generally like you don't have to say that you know but she's the opposite like she like doesn't say how she feels you know like we were going we're walking to pick

up our daughter at school the other day and i was like how's your day she seemed like down i was like how's your day and she's like fine but it was like clearly wasn't fine and so then I'm like do I always ask the audience I go so in this moment is fork in the road should I probe or should I let it lie like I and people like clockwork are 50 50 wow people go probe let it go and then I always go like you guys should go out and fist fight each other and then let us know the result and then we'll all proceed like that from now on and so anyway

I probed I go like well it doesn't seem like you might be upset like what are you thinking about and she's like nothing and I'm like well what's on your mind like literally what have you been doing today and she goes well I was watching I was watching the news. I was just sad about the war.

And I said, do you think it's my fault? She said, yes. And now I think it might be because I was raised Catholic. So I'm sort of open to anything being my fault. Your fault, the war? Yeah, exactly. It would be funny at the end of it. It's like, you know who to blame?

Catholics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's the end of the triangle. Yeah, exactly. But it's weird. Like, yeah, it's, I don't know if it's a Catholic thing. I don't know. I do have a sense of like anything could be my phone.

Like I'm open at any time. I have the same thing where it's like something goes wrong and you go, oh God, did I do something? Yeah. wrong and you go oh god did i do something yeah and it's almost it's weird because it's so self deprecating isn't the right word but it's weirdly also i'm just saying this as a criticism of myself but i'm like oh this is a weirdly self like just without judgment a literally self-centered way it's like a narcissistic view of the world yeah like i used to have i used to try to do a bit when i started and I did not I couldn't it was like not something I was able to tackle but the like self-hatred is like lazy narcissism because like narcissism is being like I'm the best and self-hatred is like I suck and

then everyone else has to go you're the best no right it's like you just outsource the feeling of you know what I mean like i'm like i don't even have my inner monologue saying i'm the best i need someone else to tell me that's a really good point i feel like that still could be a bit maybe i didn't mean to derail your bit it's not it doesn't really real at all no but i do think like it's like can you say it again that self-hatred is like just lazy narcissism because narcissism is going i'm the best right and self-hatred is like just lazy narcissism because narcissism is going i'm the best right and self-hatred is going oh i suck so that everyone else has to say no you're the best right and it's like you just outsourced a narcissistic inner monologue you delegated it

yeah right you're like uh i'm a little tired can you do this for me? Yeah, totally. It's lazy. Yeah. Yeah. But I have the same thing. That's so funny, though. It's the war. Oh, is it me? Is it me?

Yeah, I know. And so then I'm working on like, this is a joke that I wrote the front half. And then I am working on trying to figure out tags to it, which is like, I feel like parenting is a little bit like hiking. Like no one's ever like great job hiking. They're just like, keep hiking. You know, don't fall off the side.

And you're like, which side? And then they're gone. So that fall, don't fall off the side thing is like a new tag I'm tinkering with. Don't fall off the side. It's really funny. Yeah. There's bears.

What do you do? Just stand there. Yeah. You just got to, like, there's so many warnings I feel like with hiking that are like, watch out for this. And it's like, oh, what do you do? And it's like, well, if that happens, you'll probably die. Right.

Like, there's nothing you can't, it's like, hey, hope this doesn't happen. Oh, what should I do if that happens? Ah. hey, hope this doesn't happen. Oh, what should I do if that happens? Ah. Well, one of my tags for it at one point was, and sometimes you want to jump off a cliff and you're like, I can't, I'm the guide.

The whole party is going to. I'm still tinkering with that. You ever have that with jokes where you go like the front half of this joke is great but if it doesn't have a second half it's not gonna really live in the hour long term because you're like if it's half written i don't know what to do with it yeah i feel like i have one of those right now where it's like a it's like a i have a premise i'm like oh that's funny but there's sort of a so what to it what is it what is it it's like a, it's like a, I have a premise. I'm like, oh, that's funny. But there's sort of a, so what to it? What is it? What is it?

It's like about like humans being like the word, just that it's crazy that we're the only animal that is maladapted to their environment. Yeah. Like every other animal gets to like follow their instincts. And I'm like, if I followed my instincts, like I would be fat, pregnant and dead.

Like it's not an option. And just the feeling of every, I'm like, we put our favorite stuff everywhere there's like food and guns and boobs and you have to live your whole life like don't fuck that don't shit over there like it's like a very the energy to suppress that every day is crazy but there's a sort of i don't have an end to it of a sort of like so what is this am i saying we should go back to the woods am i saying right like i just have this

initial this initial feeling of like isn't this crazy but i haven't found a place for it really because there's no like i think it's possible because the pov of it is a little bit nebulous but it's hilarious in the middle like it might be the embark that you'd have to recalibrate. So how do you begin it again? I say that I usually get into it off of food stuff. I'm talking about like overeaters anonymous and that kind of stuff. And I'm like, and people are like, oh, you don't have willpower. And I'm like, well, yeah, I don't think like humans evolved to have willpower. Animals don't have willpower. We're just the only living thing that's not in the environment

we're supposed to live in. Right. But I'm like, we have computers and buildings and soap and stuff. And oh, that's kind of how I get into it. I'm like,

oh, do you ever look at your body and you're like, oh, I don't get a software update. Right. Like I just have to run caveman in a mall.

That's crazy. And it's one where people are either really on board if they, I think, already kind of think like that, or people go, we have no idea what you're talking about, and this is a TED Talk. Like, it's, yeah,

that is interesting to think that maybe the entrance to it is... And then where do you go from there? And then from there, I talk about, like, other animals that they just get to wake up, and they're like, oh, I guess i'll fuck that and then we just like film it it goes a little more into that and then i talk about like incels a little bit too it's kind of like it's it's there's like sex and food and like willpower

i feel like there is something to be cracked of like the overarching thing is i'm like well yeah we're maladapted to our environment. Yeah. And I just don't know how to get into that because it always starts too wordy. I think that if you called back at the end of that run, because I think that run is super funny. Like I'm laughing really hard. And like, I don't know.

Like I feel like if you were able to circle back to one of the other principles of the jokes that led into it, you might be able to get the train back on the track. Oh, interesting. And then the audience will kind of forgive the fact that it's possibly a mixed metaphor or it's possibly of a world that they don't necessarily agree with the logic,

but it doesn't matter because we're back on the original train. Yeah, the food stuff might be the way to go. Yeah, like some callback to the food stuff. Hi, I'm Matty. Muffins. I don't know. I'm just throwing out something from another joke. I don't know if that makes sense at all. That's really funny.

And as a willpower thing, it's pretty, I think, relatable to be like, sometimes I've gone into the Subway joke off of that and been like, how would I gone into the Subway joke off of that and been like, how would I have willpower if Subway sells sandwiches by the foot? Right. Which is a little, I think, A to C kind of. Well, to that point,

like there's a way in which you could literally fly off into that metaphor and then be like, the point is I don't have willpower. You know what I mean? Where it's like, it's not really true. You know what I mean? Yeah.

But it's kind of's not really true you know what I mean yeah but it's kind of bringing people back to like okay I intended I for fun lost my way but let's get back to the point and here's where I was going with that here's the takeaway now we're back on the track yeah I don't know oh interesting okay uh so uh I'm working on this thing right now but um my daughter broke her foot last summer and we took her in to urgent care. And like urgent care, that sort of shouldn't exist. You know what I mean? It's like the step in the process that it's just like at some point, it was like created by someone having a panic attack.

Who was like, I need urgent care. And then one guy's like, I own this building. I don't know. I could paint the words urgent care. There's nothing in it. You know, I could get a desk from Ikea and I'll just,

I'll sit here with a laptop open to WebMD. Like urgent care is like what, how much we know. Urgent care is like, we went in and we're like, we're worried. They're like, we're worried. You know what I mean? It's so – it's totally like someone having a pain attack. We go, I need to see a doctor right now.

And they go, is it an emergency? Do you need to go to the emergency room? And they're like, no, but it's urgent. That's right. That's what it is. That's what it is. It's not an emergency, but it's urgent. That's right. That's what it is. That's what it is. It's not an emergency, but it's urgent. That's right.

And it's like, and, you know, we went in and we were like, you know, they're like, they're like, do you know a doctor? We're like, no, do you? They're like, no. They're like, you should go to a hospital. We're like, no, we thought this was like an intermediate step. They're like, no. You know what I mean?

It's like two months a year, it's like, no. You know what I mean? It's like two months a year, it's a Halloween store. You know what I mean? That should be a tip off that we shouldn't take our gravest matters to urgent care. You know what I mean? It's like they do fake blood, real blood, sexy nurses, no real nurses. So that's like this new thing I was working on this weekend. For some reason today, everything is coming back to panic attacks. I think it's just on the brain for me right now

because it happened a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. So that's the urgent care thing I'm working on. But I like what you're saying because your riff on it is kind of like, it's interesting because it's like, it's not quite hospital, but it's not quite nothing. It has been like a mom advocating very hard for their kid where it's like, you legally can't call it an emergency, but they're like, okay, but make sure they write down that it's urgent.

Like urgent is such a funny word. Right, yes. So the last thing we do is working out for a cause. If you have a nonprofit that you contribute to, I will contribute to them, link to them in the show notes. There's a nonprofit that I think is amazing called Liberation Library. Okay. And they send books to incarcerated youth in Chicago

and the kids can actually like request what books they want, you know, let people know like what topics they're interested in. And this organization like carries out all the logistics of getting books to these kids who are currently incarcerated. They have a message statement on their website that I think is really beautiful. But just that basically that, like, reading should be a right

and not a privilege. And they're, like, helping to ensure that. So I think they specifically work in Chicago, but they accept donations from anywhere. That's fantastic. It's www.liberationlib.org. We'll contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes.

Thanks, Maddie, for coming. Thank you so much for having me on. This was a blast. This was such a thrill. Thank you. Awesome. Thanks. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. I loved talking to Maddie Wiener. I hope that's the first of many

episodes we do. Maddie will be in Los Angeles at the Lyric Hyperion, February 6th, and in Cincinnati at Comedy at Commonwealth on February 17th. You can follow her on Instagram at Maddie T. Wiener. And if you're able to watch the full video of this interview, it's on our YouTube channel, which is at Mike Birbiglia. Check that out and subscribe because we're going to be posting more and more videos. We're having a great time with that. Special thanks this week to our friend Nick Dimitrilakis, who helped us with that video this week. Check out Burbiggs.com to sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about all my upcoming shows.

Our producers are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Burbiglia, as well as Mabel Lewis, associate producer Gary Simons. Sound mix by Shubh Saran, supervising engineer Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Anderoff and Bleachers for their music. Hopefully we get Jack on the podcast soon. You should pressure him on social media. Pressure him at Jack Antonoff on Twitter and Instagram to come in the studio for his return to working it out

after making all this great music. He is a really amazing person, one-of-a-kind musician, who has really helped out this podcast, and we're excited to celebrate his new album coming out in March. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J-Hope Stein. Her book, Little Astronaut, is in bookstores now. You can follow her at Jhopestein on Instagram. Special thanks as always to my daughter Una, who built the original Radio 4 made of pillows. Without that, none of this would be possible. Thanks

most of all to you who are listening. If you're enjoying the show, review us on Apple Podcasts. It actually, it helps. Helps a lot. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Maybe one day you see your enemies having a panic attack, and normally you'd think, you know, I'll just let them panic.

They're my enemy. But how about this? Instead, you go up, you say, hey, my enemy, I see you're having a rough time. You're having a panic attack. And I think you should try listening to this episode of the Working It Out podcast where Mike talks to Maddie Wiener about this exact thing. And they find humor in it.

It might make you feel better. It might make them feel better. Try that. Be the bigger person. Thanks, everybody. I'll see you next time. We're working it out.