Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 132. Judd Apatow Returns: Hold On To That Authenticity

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

This week the legendary Judd Apatow returns to Working It Out for his fourth and best appearance yet. Judd tells behind-the-scenes stories from Bridesmaids and Funny People, as well as the most helpful filmmaking advice he’s gotten from other greats along the way. Judd and Mike also break apart the story of Judd’s first ayahuasca trip—and what that experience might have to do with both his parents’ divorce and his first sexual experience. Plus, jokes about how Judd somehow gained weight on Ozempic.Please consider donating to 826 National.  

Sometimes when I let people read scripts or see cuts, some of it is just, if they get excited, it just gives me the fuel to believe in myself to keep going. That you'll find it, yeah. I just remember James Brooks liking one line in This Is 40. Yeah. And he just picked it out and didn't even make the final edit. I thought about it every day the whole shoot.

And just his enthusiasm filled my tank with enough confidence gas to take a lot of risks every day. James Brooks told me once that Mike Nichols always said, every script needs a friend. Yes. Every script needs a friend. We're going to write that on the wall. Yeah. That is the voice of the great Judd Apatow. This is Judd's fourth appearance

on the podcast. One of our most popular guests of all time. He is a legendary filmmaker and stand-up comedian who literally called me the other day and said, I'm working on some new material. I'm coming to town to do it at the Cellar. And I'll come on the podcast if you want.

So we talk about some of that new material today. He's one of our most popular guests ever. And this is, I think, our best episode with him yet. I want to thank everybody who came out to my show in Los Angeles at the Netflix Is A Joke Festival. This week, I am heading to Troy, New York, to the Troy Savings Bank Theater, which is gorgeous. Then I go to Rochester.

We added a fourth and final show in Toronto at the Elgin Theater. It's a gorgeous theater. So thankful for everyone who's coming out to see these shows. We just announced a third and final show in Westport, Connecticut at the Westport Country Playhouse. If you're anywhere near Connecticut, you should just see anything they have going on.

It's a fantastic, fantastic theater. I just added a second show at the Curran in San Francisco in the fall. I'm doing a fourth and final show in Washington, D.C. I'm doing a whole ton of like 20 cities in the fall. All of it's on Burbiggs.com. Sign up for the mailing list.

I think you're going to love this episode with Judd. He is, I've known him for years. I was in the movie Trainwreck that he directed. He was one of the producers of Freaks and Geeks, Bridesmaids, Superbad. You know, he directed 40-Year-Old Virgin. I mean, his resume is like almost no one in comedy today.

I just love talking to him about everything. He's got so much wisdom. He's a great friend. He tells a story about doing ayahuasca recently. This might be the breaking news on that front. Judd talks about his parents' divorce and sort of what he's discovered about that as he's gotten older.

We talk about what a producer does. He's produced so many movies. What a producer does on any TV show or film. We cover a lot. Enjoy my chat with the great Judd Apatow. Ooh. Ooh, working it. One of our questions was,

you've made all the legendary comedy documentaries, Chandling, Carlin. When you die, am I supposed to make the Judd Apatow documentary? Someone asked me once about doing a documentary documentary and I just said no so fast. And it made me appreciative for the people who've allowed it to happen or people post their passing, their estates allowing it to happen. Because my instant reaction was like, no, not that there's anything that interesting. I feel like not really that much has happened to give it like a great life story.

And then if you just started digging, it's just uncomfortable. It's just weird, neurotic, Jewish boy stuff. I don't have like a great, like, Shanling had lawsuits. Yes, he did. You know, he had a near-death experience when he was hit by a car and he saw the light. He also, like, showed up, per your documentary, showed up, I think, at Carlin's show when he was younger? When he was in college, he wrote a bunch of jokes for George Carlin in the early 70s and went to a show and gave him a packet. And it was like a bar kind of club.

It wasn't theater. And then Colin said, I'll read it, come back tomorrow. But I think Gary lives in Tucson and the show's in Phoenix. So it was like a two-hour drive. And so then the next day, Gary has to drive again to hear what he has to say. And he said, you know what? There's a great joke on every page here.

I don't really buy jokes, but I think you should pursue this. And that's why Gary moved to Los Angeles. That gave him the confidence to do it. Well, it's funny. When I talk to younger comics now, there is a sense, and I don't think that this is wrong, but I think that there's got to be a way to poke holes in it, having the experience that you have in show business, where people are like, show business is over. You can't break in. It's oversaturated.

Oh, that's what people think. I mean, I have that feeling about oversaturation where I think, is there a need to make anything? Do we have enough? Dude. I'm sorry to say dude, but that's not the worst point. You're not wrong. Oh, yeah. I mean, I've been trying to do this bit where I talk about me,

where I go, I think I've peaked. No one thinks the new Peter Frampton album is going to beat the Taylor Swift record, right? You get a little older, and you begin to feel the drift in some way. Interesting. And so there's people who prove that completely wrong, but just as a feeling of, There's people who prove that completely wrong, but just as a feeling of, are you drifting out of the culture in some way? And so I always think about that because I also think that people forget your work really fast.

And I say to the crowd, find someone young. Have you ever seen The Odd Couple? Have you ever seen Honeymooners? And they say no to everything really fast. Have you ever seen Falcon Crest? Have you ever seen Taxi? Have you ever seen Honeymooners? And they say no to everything really fast. Have you ever seen Falcon Crest? Have you ever seen Taxi? Have you ever seen The Jeffersons? Have you ever seen Sergeant Bilko?

Yeah. And I'd run through 30 or 40, and it's literally a no on all of them. And then I started doing them a little later. Have you ever seen Home Improvement? Oh. Have you ever seen Roseanne? Have you ever seen 30 Rock? Wait, what's the goal of the exercise?

To determine, like, how far back they will go in re-watching old movies or tv yeah and you realize that for some people this is nothing before 1990 right they literally don't know mash happened they've never heard the word mash but i think as a person who makes things you have this have this delusion that it will last forever. Yeah. And now you realize like, oh, so things from 54 years ago is 1970. Yeah. So like 50 years before when I was growing up in the 70s was Charlie Chaplin.

Right. Right? Like, that's how fast it turns over. And so for me, sometimes I go, why make anything? There's so much stuff. I've made enough stuff. Like, do they need more stuff? And I have to get over that hump.

Well, that's how I make things. I can't have that be part of the equation. Because eventually, anything we do is like the guy who is the competitor to Shakespeare who you don't remember. Like most of us. Christopher Marlowe. We're all Christopher Marlowe. And you work in spite of it, right? So is Shakespeare Mulaney?

Exactly. I saw Mulaney the other night and he was so funny. was like i don't know why i do this he's one of those people he can make you quit truly truly and i you know i i i toured with him for a bunch of years and it was a fascinating early in his career it was a fascinating thing to see somebody who can yawn comedy. Yes. Who can sneeze comedy. It's like the replacements. Remember when the replacements, they said it was the band that launched a thousand bands?

Yes. People would see the replacements and go, I should start a band. No, John's the opposite. John makes people stop doing stand-up. Oh, that's interesting. You don't become a stand-up because of John. You're like, oh, I'll never be that guy. I'm not going to do that. Yeah, I should stop. That-up. Oh, that's interesting. You don't become a stand-up because of John. You're like, oh, I'll never be that guy. I'm not going to do that.

Yeah, I should stop. That's fascinating. So, okay, but to circle back to the whole thing of like, if there's too much stuff. So for young people, do you just say, don't do it? Or do you say, come at it from a different angle? No, I just always say, do it. More from, for me, that's one of my things.

So I tend to try to figure out, like, what aren't people doing? And I want to go there. Yeah. If, like, everyone is doing this kind of movie, I try to zag the other way or this kind of show or a certain type of star. Like, oh, they never let those people be the star. No, totally. I mean, that's, I mean, and that's the thing. If there's a documentary about you, here's my documentary of you. I think the thing I would dig in on is you championed so

many people's careers who were doing fine. Schumer was doing fine. You made train wreck. She became a mega star. Kumail Nanjiani was doing fine. These are all people who were doing fine. They're all amazing. But then you championed them and they became huge. I mean, Lena Dunham is another one with girls, et cetera. Why do you want to do that? And are you going to continue to do that? Well, I think, uh, I mean,

I always said that it's more like people I just want to see in something. So if I meet Kumail, I just have a gut, which is like, if that guy started a movie, I'd go, yeah. I wish that movie existed. Yeah. And then it's just, Oh, I could be part of trying to make that movie exist. Kumail came in, he had a few ideas, and one of them was what became The Big Sick. Yeah. And I just thought, well, that seems like an incredible story. If him and Emily can figure out how to write it in a way that it's a movie that people would enjoy,

because it seemed kind of harrowing with Emily being in a coma and him waiting. Like, how do you make that fun? And that's all we talked about for years. Yeah. How can you do that and have the emotional weight and also make it really funny and emotional at the same time? Yes. And they worked for years and they were diligent past the point where most people would just stop. That's interesting.

And, you know, where years of notes and talking about solving this problem, now we'll solve this problem, now we'll solve this problem, but years. And that's why it's great, because they just cared at a level that most people don't care. And to some degree, Bridesmaids is like that, too. Like, the architecture of Bridesmaids is so precise. is like that too.

Like the architecture of Bridesmaids is so precise. And it, why do you think Bridesmaids hit on the level that is so, I mean, broad? Yeah. Like it's so rare that a comedy actually is seen by everyone. It's almost, let's be honest, it's almost never. Yes. How rare is a comedy seen by everyone

and you say bridesmaids to a person on the street you see bridesmaids yeah it becomes like casablanca yeah yeah it's like it's like how rare is that it's like why did that versus you know a hundred other things you've produced why did that connect with a zillion people i mean i always think about there was one of the Pixar guys who was on 60 Minutes, and he said that every Pixar movie has this emotional idea. Like, I can't find one of my parents.

Yeah. Like, a thing that just hits you really deep emotionally. Right, immediately. All those movies, they all have something that just gets you. Finding Dory, finding Neiman, all that.

Yeah, it's all like a primary emotional need. And I think some of these movies have that because the original pitch from Annie Mummelo and Kristen was about a woman who becomes a maid of honor.

That was the original name until they made a movie called Maid of Honor. And then it bumped it. Yeah, we had to change the name. And we said, well, I guess she's a bridesmaid and a maid of honor that meeting right and um but we said you can't take the name maid of honor it's our name we had it registered so what they did is they just changed the spelling of maid oh gosh m-a-d-e or oh yeah I know eventually we just gave it to them. I don't remember how they finally spelled it.

But the initial idea was a friend is getting married, and they're doing better than you. And you have these responsibilities, and it reminds you that you're not doing well in your job and your relationships. It makes you feel terrible about yourself to have to go to all these weddings and they're really expensive and you're trying to not look like an idiot because you can't afford to do it the way other people do it. That was the initial thought. And then years to figure out, well, who is she and why is her life going badly? Right.

And what are her emotional obstacles to doing better? What does she need to learn in her life through this experience to get to a better place? And that took a long time. But again, every summer, every break, Kristen and Annie would work on it and solve a problem. Once they didn't write for six months because we were just like stuck. And then they came back and said, oh, we think that she plays victim and blames everyone else for her problems and she needs to take responsibility. And that became, you know, the main running idea of it. You know, she makes cakes. She has a bake shop. It goes under. And so she decides, I'm never going to bake again. That she's that person. Right. And she needs to get

over that. And the best cast ever, and Paul Feig is amazing. And there's the magic of chemistry. And we really made a point of using Kristen's world. A lot of times you work with somebody and you say, who do you want to cast? And it works best if you really go with their instincts. Throughout my whole career, here are these people, here's some of the people that I've liked the most that I've always dreamed of collaborating with. Yeah. And they have a natural chemistry and a history that just for some reason her and Maya together. Yeah. Because they know each other so well, love each other.

Yeah. It comes through. It's not like if they met on the first day of shooting. When you're producing, it seems to me that, at least in my experience of seeing you produce for Pete Holmes and Lena and different people, it seems like a lot of what you're doing is dramaturgical. You're like asking the right questions. Like, oh, you have this story, you have these characters, what else? Do you see that as your role as a producer? Because producer, you know, you see a movie, there's nine producers, it's like, who knows what producer's doing what? What do you view your role as, as a producer?

I mean, it's different just based on the team and what everyone's good at, you know, so I always think like my job, beyond trying to put it together. Like financially with the studio and stuff like that. And what project should we do or try to get someone to let us do? Who's the best director? What's the best cast? Just being a part of that process is the first thing. And it's also the script.

So it's just years of script work. And then it's just where's their trouble. Sometimes people are just murdering the directing, and so I'm not taking any role at all because the ship has sailed and it's just working. Other times there's scenes where you go, oh, I should go that day because I might be able to think of something that would make it better. And other days I'm like, I will not make it better. I'll be in the way. Because sometimes people are really in a groove and it doesn't help the chemistry

to be sitting next to them. And some people like it really helps and they love it and they love having someone to kick it around with and double check things or pitch jokes. And every situation is different. Right. With Maude, like Maude either joined your company or what does she do in relation to everything? Well, Maude is doing her own producing. She's about to direct a movie and, you know, she's always had a real instinct for that. She made like a great super weird short when she was in college that was so troubling and funny.

I'm going to try to describe it right now. Okay. It was about a woman who took care of an old lady. Yeah. And the old lady suddenly dies. And because she's really neurotic, she panics and thinks everyone's going to think she murdered her. And because she's so nervous about it, she doesn't tell anyone she's really neurotic, she panics and thinks everyone's going to think she murdered her. And because she's so nervous about it, she doesn't tell anyone she's dead

and starts cleaning the house and trying to hide the clues as if she did it, but she didn't do it, and then it makes everyone think that she did it. I love that. It's almost a curve with high stakes. But the funny thing about it was I thought, so of all the

short films Maude could do, that's what was in her head. That's very funny. What kind of parent have I been that that's what she's thinking about? And I said, why did you do that? And she goes, it's my worst fear. It's my worst fear. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

But like, so, you know, you've directed a zillion movies and produced a zillion movies. It's like, do you even bother giving her advice for she's directing a feature coming up, right? Yeah, I mean, I think that you want to give advice, but people just have a different take on things. Yeah. And so I find that to be a very delicate aspect of it because you could say, I think you would do this and then it's a Judd movie. Right, right. And so then you go, well, where am I really taking her off her course?

So there are things you think you want to say and you're not sure if you should say. And where I learned that was I did a screening once for funny people. Yeah. And I always ask everyone to watch it. Yes. And I had a lot of my heroes watch it.

You'll ask, I know this, I know you'll ask Cameron Crowe, you'll ask James L. Brooks. Yeah, and I'll show it to all those people. Yeah, yeah. And I remember Ron Howard being at the screening, and everyone was very nice and just wrote up their notes, here's what they would do. Yeah. And if you read the notes, you're like, oh, that would make it a Ron Howard movie. That's great.

That would feel like, you know, whatever, Parenthood, one of the great movies of all time. Or Cameron Crowe's ideas lead in that direction. And so then you go, all right. And a lot of these are incredibly helpful, valid notes. And then some of them are just very specific taste choices. Or how people tell stories. Some people tell stories in a linear way. Some people less linear.

And a lot of the trick of it is can you hold on to your point of view while listening to a lot of point of views? Can you take what you think would apply to you without screwing yourself up? Yeah. I mean, a lot of times. Moment of silence for that wisdom. That's so true. I remember my.

It's like at the heart of the whole thing, I feel like, the whole collaborative process. How do you hold on to what you want to say, but also take in like true wisdom from really brilliant people. Yeah. And sometimes like a great piece of wisdom would ruin you if you took it. And sometimes when I let people read scripts or see cuts, some of it is just, if they get excited, it just gives me the fuel to believe in myself to keep going.

Yeah. I just remember James Brooks liking one line in This Is 40. Yeah. And he just picked it out. And it didn't even make the final edit. Yeah. It was in a therapy session. And Paul said, I feel like we're always one good conversation away from never getting into a fight ever again.

That's a great line. And he just pointed that out. And he loved it. And he's like, that's the whole movie. Yeah. And I thought about it every day the whole shoot. And just his enthusiasm filled my tank with enough confidence gas to take a lot of risks every day. And even now, I think without Shanling around

and other people that I would talk to, like, I find it's harder. When Shanling was like, this is going to be great, that really made me not hear my negative voices and other negative voices. About every movie. Oh, wow. Everything I've ever done.

Just him going like, you're on to something. Oh, that's nice. I love that. It warms my heart. James Brooks told me once that Mike Nichols always said, every script needs a friend. Yes. Every script needs a friend.

We're going to write that on the wall. Yeah. That's beautiful. Mike Nichols, every script needs a friend. Beautiful. You need someone who just gets it and believes in you, and then you live to fight another day.

Before I knew you jenny and i saw funny people in the theater i was furious i was not in funny people i was like clear oversight come on come. This movie was made for me. And of course I should be in it. And then the other, and this is classic. This is a similar way you're saying about everyone has a note. Everyone's a critic, blah, blah, blah. Funny people, me and Jenny's takeaway was the final third doesn't need to exist. And the first two thirds are amazing.

The final third is good, but it's a let. And the first two thirds are amazing. The final third is good, but it's a letdown from the first two thirds. And what's funny is, Jan and I brainstormed, we're going to recut the movie from the Blu-ray. We're going to send it to Judd anonymously. Here's what the movie should be. And the reason I bring it up

is not to make a joke at the expense of the movie, is to say that I've probably watched the movie five or six times since then. I love the movie. And so it's kind of like a record. It's like when a musician releases a record and you're like, ah, it's got too many songs about this, whatever. And it's like, 20 years later, still

listening to the record. So it's like, I think they might have known more than you. Well, that I find is the most interesting part of it. And I think this is the hard part about making movies, because on one level they're supposed to be satisfying, they're supposed to make money. And if you want to make a movie that doesn't do the thing the audience wants you to do,

you're putting other people's money at risk. Yep. And you're hoping that that choice somehow transcends everything. You know, when you see Terms of Endearment, Deborah Winger dies at the end. Oh, yeah. Tearjerker. There's something about the movie where it's so sad,

but then it lifts you at the end. There's this brilliant moment with moment with jack nicholson where at the end of the funeral he he takes her son and walks him to his backyard because he's yep he's a neighbor and he says you want to see my pool yeah and for some reason you're emotional dan but you're happy like you love Yeah, no, that's, you want to see my pool when Jack Nicholson says that is so beautiful of a movie scene. It's like a perfect archetype

of a great light touch. A grace note. A grace note, a grace note where you get a sense of like, oh, this guy, Jack Nicholson, who's kind of a jerk character, he's actually going to help out this family a little bit.

You have hope. You just sort of know, you sort of know this is to help out this family a little bit. You have hope. You just sort of know this is a harbinger of things to come. Yeah. And it's the best ending, I think, for me, of almost any movie. I mean, it's like that and being there. Yeah. But that's what is challenging because you're always going, I can always end it a certain way.

I know the ending that makes people, you know, be so happy skipping to their car. And then there's another ending, which is like our version of it with funny people, is Sandler writes a joke for Seth about his grandfather thinking he's having sex with his wife, but he's really fucking his own balls. And I said to

Shanling at the time, I go, can you end a movie on that joke pitch? And Gary goes, you have to. Oh my God, you have to. Because that's what they would be laughing about. That's what they would be doing. That's their moment of connection is writing stupid, dirty jokes.

And so with that movie, I thought, I just want to show how hard it is to take wisdom from life. And at the end, all he does is write a joke for Seth. He's not, there's no giant gesture. He just apologizes and does something selfless for Seth after being so awful to Leslie and her family and everybody. And it's dark.

And it was based on my mom had cancer and she died of ovarian cancer. And I wrote it while she was sick. I probably just some way to deal with it. And I was writing about the fact that when my mom thought she was getting better, she was way more neurotic. And every time on the roller coaster of it, she was sure she was going to die. She was so much happier and relaxed. And I just observed this and there were some... She felt better. She seemed at peace when she thought she had no chance. Oh, interesting. And then suddenly she'd be on an experimental medication

and all of her neuroses would return. That's interesting. And it was hard to watch. And so on some level, people go, who is George Simmons based on? It's based more on my mom in a way. What do you say to people who are – because I get this question all the time. You're talking about your mother was dying. You're writing this scene in the movie,

and it's interrelated in some way. Where are your boundaries for that? Because I constantly get this question. It's like, I want to do what you do where you tell stories about yourself, but I don't want to hurt the people in my life. I don't want people to feel bad. Do you think about that a lot?

Oh, yeah. I remember in This Is 40, you know, I was talking to my dad about it. And everything is like mainly fiction, but there's things taken from life. And I asked my dad if it was okay. And he said, well, whoever plays me, I hope they'll be likable. Oh, my God. And I'm like, it's Albert Brooks, okay?

You got Albert Brooks. Or people from your past that you don't talk to anymore. Right. I had a friend who got mad that I used his name as a character. Oh. So I hadn't talked to him in 25 years. I thought they would get a kick out of it. They were not happy about it.

Oh, my gosh. How many Emmys do you have and where are they? I have three. One in 1993. I won one from the Ben Stiller show, Best Writing. So we won Best Writing for a variety show after we were canceled. Oh, my gosh. Love that.

That was a really fun one. Badge of Honor. That was the most fun one. And in fact, because I was very young when that happened, I was 25. Yeah. I liked winning an oscar in a way like an oscar to emmy i'll never win an oscar but an emmy uh because it made me kind of not really care about any of those things afterwards like oh i love that like it was so fun

that none of it matters like i'm not you know like i think i think it's a a hilarious part of the process but that was the only one that will ever mean anything because we just took such a beating that it just made us feel like we were insane. I can't believe you won an Emmy when you're 25 years old. That's crazy. And for all of us it was crazy, you know, because it was David Cross and Bob Odenkirk and Stiller.

And even Ben, his young guy, too. Oh, yeah, and we basically were told, go away. It was like on MTV, right? We were on Fox, and we were on at 7.30. Yes, yes, yes. Who watches edgy comedy at 7.30 up against 60 Minutes? It was something that was destined to be a problem. But that was really fun.

And then we went for the documentaries for Shanley and George Carlin. So I have those two in my office. And the Stiller one is in a box somewhere because I moved. Oh. So wait, you're telling me, when you look, I looked it up and it said you have like 11 Emmys. Maybe nominations. Yeah, yeah. looked it up and it said you have like 11 Emmys so maybe nominations yeah yeah or maybe that you were affiliated with 11 different I mean Emmy winning things because you because you freaks

and geeks must have been right we won an Emmy for best casting okay gotcha that's I think that's where that's where my yeah that's where my lines are we lost every year for the Larry Sanders show. That's absurd. Yeah, we lost best show every year. And I think we lost five years in a row to Frasier. I'd have to take the exact amount of times we lost to Frasier, but it was certainly four or five. If Frasier just had it made with the Emmys year over year over year. And then we thought our last season, like, they're going to give us the goodbye Emmy. We lost to Frasier again.

In fact, when Gary hosted the Emmys after Sanders was over, one of the sketches we did was a montage of Gary losing to Frasier every year. Although we recreated it with, like like different beards and different girlfriends. Did she, did Shanling ever intersect with the Frasier actors and creators? Because I would imagine

Shanling would have liked Frasier. Oh, I'm sure. It was great. It's a very funny show. Yeah, legendary. But also he, but knowing Shanling, and I don't know him,

but I'm sure he gave Kelsey Grammer a hard time. Yeah, exactly. Every time. But the V had always made us laugh, but we did find it annoying, is whenever they won, no matter who accepted it, they never said, it's an honor to be nominated with all these other shows. They always said, we got the best writing staff in Hollywood. Oh, come on.

We knew they would say it every time, and they said it every single time. Because I always think you should go, I can't believe I'm nominated with these people. They never said it once. Speaking of these award campaigns, you are the panel. You are the moderator of so many panels of TV cast and stuff. This is my future. Do you live in a panel? In my life?

You're just there already. They come to me? Yeah, they go, can we come to your panel and do a little thing? I mean, I think on some level the dream is not anything but being a moderator. That's so funny. When you get to the core of my comedy nerddom,

like I interviewed the cast of Curb Your Enthusiasm. Yeah, I know, I saw. It's like 3,500 seats. It's where they do the Oscars. And it's sold out. Oh, my gosh. It's like a rock concert for Curb. And I was so excited, more excited than making any movie.

Like, for me personally, I'm like, this was the dream, was to just get to chat with them, to try to help them get out what they want to do and make them look good, maybe get a couple of jokes in that people don't expect and i went home and i went that was the best moderating i've ever done and then i'm like everything in the world i make no money at is what i'm really excelling at right now right documentaries and moderating and moderating you're the best at moderating.

Oh, yeah. I'll set you up. I'll set you up. And it's so fun. It's just, because that's, you know, what do we really love? We just love talking to comedians. Right. And creative people.

I always host the DGA Awards. Yeah. And that's the same thing. Like, Carl Reiner always did it. Yeah. And I just thought, I'm happy to coast into doing that kind of thing in my career. Yeah. Because we always loved that Carl Reiner would show up and host the DJs, and he'd be so funny.

And it's another one of those things, like, you're not getting paid, and I'll put like three months of work into it. Yeah. Because it's like a cosplay hosting the Oscars. Yeah. You're not going to get lambasted, but it's your childhood fantasy of doing it. Right. And it's so fun. And I think that's the thing I'm always trying to get back to is,

you know, there's the business part, which is such a pain in the ass, and then there's the pure part, like what I love about this. Yeah, yeah, what do I love? Yeah. That's so key. Pretending I'm hosting the Oscars, and it's not broadcast.

Pretending I'm hosting the Oscars. And it's not broadcast. Pretending I'm hosting the Oscars. What are people's favorite and least favorite thing about you? That's a really, really deep, dark, troubling question. I mean, the worst thing about me is probably just like in my head. Yeah. And so I may not be present. Right. I may be spacey. Right. And there's something disrespectful about that.

And neurotic and annoying, quite frankly. It's annoying to be with a neurotic person. That's interesting. And so certainly I'm trying and have always been trying to figure out how to quiet the critical voice or, me the hyper vigilant voice because i came from you know divorce and fighting and and a lot of a feeling of i don't feel well taken care of it made me go you better be on your you better get a job you said this thing last night on stage at the cellar where you where you go your dad when your parents got divorced wasn't like the era of unconscious

coupling or conscious uncoupling it was the era of your dad like put a divorce book on like the coffee table and didn't even tell you to read it just put it there that was our only conversation about how I was feeling during all those times was he left a book out on the coffee table and never asked me if I read it. There wasn't a follow-up discussion. Oh, my God. He just left it for me.

It was just there. It was just there. And he didn't even say, hey, this is for you. No. And I took the bait. And I don't think I probably read 10 pages of it. I didn't read the whole book. I do remember the 10 pages being very helpful,

and me understanding that there was this dynamic between my parents and how they felt about each other and how they were trying to be good with us, and it really was helpful. That's the funny part. But a few years ago, he told me, you know, I left that book out for you. Like, I didn't know he left it out. I'm like,

what do you mean? He's like, I put it on the coffee table for you to read. And I said, but you never asked me if I read it. Yeah, but I left it on the coffee table. Oh my God.

And that was, I left it on the coffee table. It should be a name of a movie about divorce. Exactly. I left it on the coffee table. I the name of a movie about divorce. Exactly. I left it on the coffee table. Yeah. I mean, honestly, like that's potentially a movie for you is just have you really gone head on and divorced because it really sculpted your life so much. Yeah.

Only in a couple of Freaks and Geeks episodes with Bill and his mom and with Sam Levine. There's that episode where he realizes that his dad's cheating on his mom, which Cabe Saxon, Jeff Judah wrote. There were a few episodes. There was one episode of Freaks and Geeks, which I had some input on, which was about Sam Levine. He knows his parents are probably going to get divorced because his dad's cheating, and how he deals with it

is becoming obsessed with ventriloquism. And then at a dinner party, he viciously attacks his parents with the puppet. And I did that. I learned how to juggle. Yeah. And that drove my interest in comedy was this reaction to divorce. Interesting. Okay, so that's people's least favorite thing about you.

You answered that with flying colors. divorce. Interesting. But so, okay. So that's people's least favorite thing about you. You, you answered that and with flying colors, you had about a hundred of those. Uh, what's people's favorite thing about you? Um, I, I don't know. I mean, I hope I'm pleasant. I hope I'm, I'm, I think I try to be like about you is you hope you're pleasant. I hope I'm pleasant. I feel like, you know, cause I'm around a lot of people who don't listen at all. And I think I'm interested in people in a way that is semi-healthy. Because we know so many people, they're so funny and they're so neurotic. And then you'll leave them after two hours and realize they never asked me a question. Right.

And you're just servicing them in some way. Right. The entire time. Right. Which I don't mind because some of those people, they're magic. They're broken, but they're magic, and it's fun, and it's worth it. Yes. But there are times where you go, that's just so interesting that they don't have any curiosity

as to what other people are doing. Jenny and I always reference that in relation to Talented Mr. Ripley. Don't give it away. I didn't see the movie yet. But it's just a thing. It all works out. It's just a thing about the Jude Law character whose name is Dickie.

And Gwyneth Paltrow's character says, you know, he's kind of like the thing you're describing. She just goes, but when Dickie shines on you, there's nothing like it. And kind of excuses everything else because he's kind of like a trashy character in a few different ways. And like we always reference that

because there's a lot of people like that in show business. There's a lot of people who, when they shine their light on you, it's like nothing else. Yeah, and I remember there was one person who was famous and funny and I was talking to them and then they went, how are you doing? And I answered briefly and then they just moved on. And you felt like their therapist had said, don't forget to ask people how they're doing.

Don't forget to ask about other people. You don't have to listen, but just ask. The box was checked. But you're curious. That's your answer, really. I'm trying to be Mike Douglas. In life, I'm paneling. I'm just paneling with everybody. What's a song that makes you cry? Oh, my God. I'm such a crier.

I'm a crier for songs. I'm just an easy cry. I could put on the Johnny Cash hurt video right this second, and then 12 seconds later, I'm crying. That song is beautiful. And his rendition of that song is beautiful. Because it's a Nine Inch Nails song, right? It's a Nine Inch Nails song.

And the video that Mark Romanek did is the best video ever made where he goes to this broken down Johnny Cash museum. And then there's all these quick images from his life and video in the museum. And the other one is the last Warren Zevon record, which has a song called Keep Me In Your Heart, which is in Funny People, which is also one that if it doesn't get you,

you're dead inside. Yeah. And a lot of our listeners are. I would assume. you're dead inside. Yeah. And a lot of our listeners are. I would assume.

Do you remember a moment in your life where you ran away, like physically ran from something? Where I physically ran? Like jogged away from something, ran away from something. Yeah, I'm a runner. I mean, that's the end of this is 40 is he gets on the bike and he runs away

and then he drives his bike into Phil Hendry's door and then Phil Hendry beats the shit out of him. I think that's a metaphor for how I feel about everything. You go, why did I write that? Because that is the feeling like things get tough and you just wish you could just jump on a bike. Can you think of a moment where you did it? I mean, I told that story last night about being young and that girl, when I was way too young, like doing sexual things. It's like between eighth and ninth grade. And this girl was my girlfriend just going way farther than I expected or was ready for. And she was sleeping over my house, which was so strange that I was even able to arrange that. But I didn't think we would do anything but kiss.

Then it just went way farther. And the next morning, I was so freaked out that I got in the shower, and I wouldn't get out until she left. And I just pretended I was in the shower. And they're knocking on the door like, she's leaving. Can you say goodbye? I'm like, I'm in the shower. Meanwhile, I'm on the floor in the fetal position,

hugging a bottle of Perts, just not knowing what the hell just happened. That story. So we can talk about material now because basically what I saw you working on last night is in the universe of you probably called me a few weeks ago and said, hey, I'm working on this new material, but I don't know how it's gonna go. It's based on, I tried ayahuasca and I had these like three experiences

that it evoked from my childhood. And then you talk about them on stage last night. And one of them is that one. And it's such a funny story because it's like, It's such a funny story because it's like you go, she put her hand on my pants and like you were young and you were like, I hadn't? No one had touched my penis, not even me. Not even you. So I didn't know what that meant.

I hadn't masturbated. I hadn't even like thought through. How old were you? I was between eighth and ninth grade. Wow. So I hadn't even talked to my friends about like, how does that work? Right. Or even what it was. I had no sense of it.

So it was a story I was told. It's a funny story. But then when I was on ayahuasca, I realized it was a very traumatic story of feeling out of control well because you talk about how your parents and this i think is like you know it's a it's a serious thing it's a real thing it's emotional thing but it's also like long term when you figure out the comedy beats of it it's hilarious thing which is your parents never similar to me never told you anything about sex never told you anything about your body yeah and to the point where you were at your friend's house and he had like a your bodies yourselves kind of book and you stole it yeah

where did i come from the book where did i come from which explained like the birds and the bees with these really funny cartoons and it was very accessible like almost like a sesame street explanation yeah of sex and orgasms i stole it And my parents started spanking me for stealing it and lying about it because I kept saying I didn't steal it because they didn't have the instinct to just read it to me. They didn't go, that is adorable. That is adorable. They were like, no, our son is going to become like a serial killer or a grifter or something. Like they, they were like, this is the moment to teach you not to lie and steal. Not, oh, you want to know how the universe works. Or even your own body.

I mean, like it's so simple. So simple. I mean, it's hard to be like the armchair therapist, but it's like, it's such a cry for help to steal. I need this information so bad. To steal a book from your friend's house about how your body works. And then have your parents be like, we're going to spank you for stealing. Like, you're really missing what's happening here. And then I thought, like, what else did they do this with? Like, I only remember this one.

Right. But what else did they just get wrong that they were out of tune about? Because I remember once my parents would make me, fish, like a fried piece of fish or something. And I hated it. And I wouldn't eat it. And they would say, you have to eat it. You have to. So they would do the force you to eat something.

Right. You don't want to eat thing. And then I'd say, well, it's cold. And they would heat it up, bring it back, and then I still wouldn't eat it. And they would do the reheat thing multiple times. So it could be hours of me refusing to eat the fish. And as a parent, I learned, like, yeah, that's the worst thing in the world you can do. Like, that is why at 3 in the morning I'm sneaking into the kitchen having Haagen-Dazs.

Right. I mean, who knows what it did to me. Because also, if there's a plate, I have to finish it. Right. I have a weird thing. If it's a small plate, I'll finish it. If it's a large plate, I'm almost in a panic if I think I won't be able to. What do you mean?

Like, there's something wrong and bad about not finishing. Even though I fought finishing with my parents, with the fish. Okay. As an adult, every time you hand me a plate of food, the first thing I think is, oh, I've got to finish all of this. I'm not comfortable leaving a quarter of it there. I mean, I've worked on it, so I can do it now. But it just wired something.

So the ayahuasca story brought up all these stories, which were kind of funny stories. And then in that moment, I thought, oh no, they shaped me. And then so when I end the story about the girl moving too fast with me, I say, and that's how you become the writer of the 40-year version. And you realize, oh yeah, there's real shame in that because you're just terrified and you don't understand what's going on. So the only thing I loved those stories, I love seeing you do those stories

that the comedy told you last night. My only note really was, I, as an audience member, needed a way in to understand what ayahuasca does to you. I didn't even really fully grasp. You were like, so I did ayahuasca and then I told these three stories. And I was kind of like, wait, does ayahuasca. And then I told these three stories. I was kind of like, wait, does it, does ayahuasca like make you bring up memories? Like, and I,

I don't know. What does it do? Here's the funny thing about that. Cause I, I had a note about what I wanted to talk about with it, which was like that I never ever asked what it did. Yeah. So can you imagine? So I'm drinking this boiled bark. Right. You didn't ask what ayahuasca did. Not at all. Why'd you do it?

I did it because I thought it helps you confront and release trauma or places you're stuck. That's all you know. I know that you take this thing. You know you throw up. I feel like everyone knows that. But even that, I didn't know where it came in and what the point of it was. I didn't do the deep dive because I thought,

if I go on YouTube and watch ayahuasca trips, and if I start Googling this, I'm going to scare myself out of it. Yeah, of course. But the idea that I don't know, and I'm drinking something that I know is going to take me to Jupiter. Yes. And I'm like, why do I want to go to Jupiter?

Yeah. Why am I doing this? Yeah. You know, that's what I wanted to write about. Like, what is happening in my head that I feel I need to scrape out with this? And the funny thing when you talk about ayahuasca on stage and you say to the crowd, has anyone done ayahuasca? It's always like one person.

I know. I noticed that last night. It's almost no one. Some shows it's no one. Sometimes it's two. Yeah. So you're doing a thing that people are very curious about because they're so far away from doing it. If you say who's done LSD, it's like half the place.

Right. But people haven't done those things like ayahuasca and peyote. But I did the same thing with Ozempic. So I'm like borderline, pre-diabetic, always carrying like 20 pounds too much. I go to a nutritionist, puts me on all these vitamins, and he gives me all these shots, injections to take home. He's like, use that once a week. And I did it for like a couple of months and I never asked what was in the shot. So in other words, it was Ozemic, but you didn't even know. I didn't even know he put me on Ozemic, but then I thought, why am I injecting myself

with something? And I literally don't know what I'm injecting myself with. What are you doing? Like, what are you doing? How are you taking shots and not knowing what they are and then i had this joke right which is true i said you know i feel like i can outrun the ozempic like i was taking pride in gaining weight on the ozempic like it can be done oh god and i so you know it would make you really nauseous but kind of different parts of the day so when i wasn't nauseous when there was a window i would eat eat so much, and I started gaining weight. Even Ozempic can't keep me down, this appetite. During the strike, my main thing I did was I would eat Haagen-Dazs and take Ozempic

and try to figure out if I could get the perfect balance of Ozempic and Haagen-Dazs where I would neither gain nor lose weight. And of course, all of this goes back to the cold fish your parents made you eat. It all goes back to the cold fish and the unrequested hand job. Oh my God. Oh God. So you, okay.

So you take ayahuasca. I'm just curious, just because Neil Brennan has done it and talks about it. He talks about seeing God. And he's basically an atheist or was previous to this. Says he saw God. Do you feel like you saw God?

Well, I had an image of Jesus at one point. And I'm Jewish. Wow. And so there was a moment where I thought, oh, I get Jesus. Oh, that's interesting. I understand it. The martyrdom of it. The idea of...

Sacrifice. Sacrificing for people where I just had the thought like, oh, he died for everybody, and so we should try to help each other. That's an example for the love we should all to help each other. That's an example for the love we should all have for each other. That was what it led to. The whole trip led to just the idea of giving.

It's just love thy neighbor as thyself. But I'm Jewish. I've never read the New Testament. Every once in a while, I have some friends. We'll give you a copy on the way out we always it's part of our gift bag the sleepwalk with me bible the merch that didn't sell the hotel bibles you tried to sell and and it was a profound experience but i'm you know i'm trying to talk about it on stage yeah like now what do you do with that that's really interesting I last night was doing a bunch

of religious stuff and I was saying all these religions are cults that took off right like it's like Christian like if Jesus Christ the historical figure were here today he'd be like no no no that's not what I meant like at all

I'm like a cross between David Blaine and a soup kitchen. You know what I mean? Like, that's what I was trying to do. Like the crusades, like you killed people to force them to believe what I said. That's why it was interesting in like an ayahuasca trip. It just boils down. Yeah. Right. So there's all this stuff. And if you read the Bible, there's things that seem to make sense. And there are things that are crazy and violent and brutal. And then I think like anything else, like therapy or whatever you do to be saner, you go, I believe in this little piece. I don't have to believe in all of it. But it's interesting because what you were talking about last night, to me, had that energy of you have something to say.

Yes. And it's sort of my question is like, why do you feel so compelled by like this ayahuasca experience where like you sort of opened up? What is it that interests you most about it? I think the thing that I get when I talk about it, and I'm in the very earliest stages of trying to explain it and use it as a way to just talk about everything in the world for me. You know, why I'm neurotic, what I'm struggling with, what my life has been like. Like you could use the discussion of why did I take ayahuasca to get to anything. So it's a great device. But what I find interesting is the crowd seems very interested because they're all trying to be saner.

They're all trying to heal. They're trying to be happier. And so if I'm incredibly honest about it, here's my real problems. I'm not holding back because we're doing stand-up. I'm going to tell you what my real problems are. And here's things I'm doing, some which are crazy, some which haven't worked at all to do better. And then I realized, well, that's what all my movies have been. That's what every TV show has been. It's, you know, seeking some sort of mental health. You know, sometimes they say, oh, you know, like,

Seinfeld's not, it's like a non-learning show, right? And that's the genius of it. There's no lesson. But like, for me, it's like the opposite. Yeah, there's lessons. My thing is like, where is the lesson? Can I learn the lesson? Yeah, yeah. My struggle with the lesson, can I let go of my neuroses? Because a lot of the ayahuasca experience was let go. Can you let go of all your stuff?

Can you just let it go? Yeah. I think another note I would give based on you telling me last night is like, I feel like you just need more lead in to why did I go? Yeah. What was it like when I got there? What was the waiting room like? What was it like? The vivid things that make people in the audience go, oh, he's not doing a bit.

This is fully what happened. Yes. And I think once you get to that, I actually think that all of the stories that are so deeply personal about the sexual interaction when you're really young and the stuff with your parents, the divorce story, stealing the birds and the bees kind of.

Yeah. And I think what's going to happen is, and I feel like you're in a situation where you need to apply the principles of your movies, which is let's get to know these characters. And then your launch into, I'm going to just tell you guys what happened in my ayahuasca session. I feel like that's going to be pretty powerful. I mean, it's really the first time in my life I've had the seed of a story that could be the entire show. Yes.

I've never had that before. Because I was thinking, what else is happening with me that I feel neurotic about? And one of the things I feel neurotic about, I wanted to kick around with you, is that during COVID, I got very neurotic about who was checking in on me. Because I became very aware of who I hadn't talked to in a couple of years. Oh, my gosh. And then I would realize, in two years, that person didn't want to check if I was couple of years. Oh, my gosh. And then I would realize, like, in two years, that person didn't want to check if I was alive or dead.

Oh, my gosh. And then I felt really bad. Like, oh, that's so weird. And then I go, but I didn't check in on that. Yeah, yeah. And it's connected to this idea of, like, sometimes you'll check texts when people pass. Yeah, yeah.

Like, you'll read, like, your last bunch of emails. And, like, I looked at Richard Lewis, you'll check texts when people pass yeah like you read like your last bunch of emails and like i looked at richard lewis why i knew a teeny bit but for a very long time and he was always like when we were young comics the nicest yeah and also a huge comic so like in 1988 to have richard lewis pay any attention to you was gigantic and gigantic, and he was very kind. And so I would talk to him, usually like DMs on Twitter. Yeah. And I just looked and go, I wonder what the last few things were.

And he just said, hold on to that authenticity, Richard. Richard Lewis. That's so beautiful. Right? And I just thought, oh, what a beautiful thing. Hold on to that authenticity. Like, I would never think to even say that to anybody. That oh, what a beautiful thing. Hold on to that authenticity. Like, I would never think to even say that to anybody. That's the title of this episode. Hold on to that authenticity.

It was funny. I was doing that bit last night. It's kind of in the vein of what you're talking about, which is, it's an instant new bit, which is like, you know,

I have friends. My dad was in the hospital and I have a Muslim friend who was like, I'm praying for your dad. And I'm like, you know, I'm always,

I appreciate it so much, but I don't believe it. I don't believe in God necessarily, but I'm also just like, I don't drink water five times a day. You're praying five times a day? Like, that's really good. Because my feeling about praying, and this is true, my mom says she'll pray for me sometimes. Like, when anyone says they're praying for me, it's like,

well, it's nice that you're even thinking about me at all. Yeah. You know what I mean? Everyone's just thinking about themselves. Yeah. I love the Pete Holmes bit about, you know, when people say, how can you believe in heaven? How can you believe heaven exists?

And Pete says something like, you know what's weird? This. We're on a rock flying around the sun, or, you know, know like why is this not weird by the way Pete I apologize for

ruining the exact wording but but that is also what the ayahuasca does it just for a moment you're like

open to wow anything might be possible but also you could just go to the Museum of Natural History John

you don't have to use ayahuasca just be a woolly mammoth and just get Possible. But also you could just go to the Museum of Natural History, John. You don't have to use ayahuasca. Just be a woolly mammoth and just get emotionally touched. We took Una for her birthday to the museum and we went to the planetarium. And man, do they do a good job with that. Essentially, you go on to an into space, and it lands on, the whole thing lands on this, like, the miracle that is Earth, that we can have vegetation and life. And the distance from the sun allows for there to be growth and all these things.

And just, it's complete, it is completely and totally astonishing that we are here right now at this moment speaking to each other at all. Yeah. And if I bomb tonight, I shouldn't care that much. We're wrapping it there. The last thing we do is, we're going to have for a cause, is there a nonprofit that you like to contribute to? I know you contribute to a lot. Yeah, I mean, the main one I work with is 826, which is Dave Eggers' charity that provides free literacy

and tutoring to kids, free literacy classes. And they're in a lot of different cities around the country. They're in New York and L.A. and San Francisco. It's a great charity. When you have kids, you'll see you spend so much money on tutors. Everything is so hard, and they do need extra help. There's a lot of people who just can't afford it. They have these centers where people volunteer,

and kids can just come in. They're just smart adults who will help them with their homework and things like that. And it makes a gigantic difference. That's a phenomenal organization. I've contributed to them before. We'll contribute again. We'll link to them in the show notes. Judd, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for being my friend. Thanks for bouncing jokes around. You're always, you're one of the most generous comedy writers on the planet. You're always, you're one of the most generous comedy writers on the planet. You're the spirit animal of Working It Out podcast,

which is to say that your sense of kind of open collaboration with other comedians is unparalleled. Thank you. I think this was my fourth appearance. That's correct. Working it out, because it's not done. Working it out, because there's no one. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can follow Judd Apatow on Instagram, at Judd Apatow.

You can check out the short documentary he made about Bob Newhart, and Don Rickles, which I love. It's on the New Yorker website. Check out Burbiggs.com to sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about all my upcoming shows. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel, at Mike Burbiglia.

Check it out and subscribe while you're there. We're going to be posting more and more videos. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone, Joseph Birbiglia, and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer, Gary Simon. Sound mix by Ben Cruz.

Supervising engineer, Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. I love their new album. Special thanks, as always, to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Her book, Little Astronaut, is now available as an audiobook on Audible

as of Mother's Day. Special thanks, as always, to my daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy it, go on Apple Podcasts and just click the five stars. That's only if you like it. I'm not gonna

lead you to your answer, but if you like it, click five stars. That'll help more people find it, which we really appreciate. Tell your friends. Mention it to your enemies. Let's say you're up for an Emmy and you happen to lose to Frasier and you run into Kelsey Grammer at a party.

You could confront him about it, sure, but instead, maybe recommend a podcast. Hey, Kelsey! I know these award show people try to pit people up against each other to create drama, but let's do away with that. Let's go in a different direction.

Let's listen together. Mike Birbiglia is working it out. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. See you next time.