Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 147. Hannah Gadsby Returns: Shake the Tree

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Hannah Gadsby joins Mike in the studio for the first time. The two talk Hannah’s new solo show “Woof!”, a painful celebrity encounter with Anna Kendrick, and how to keep track of multiple contradictory ideas in the creative process. Plus, a robust Working it Out session solves the mystery of if that dingo ate a baby. Please consider donating to:  The Autistic Self Advocacy Network

I have a lot of ambitions for my work, like as a piece, but like I don't shoot for the stars. People like me don't shoot for the stars. Like, you know, we belong on the earth. It's fine. But, so I didn't have my head in that game. And then I'm like meeting Jennifer Aniston and she like, oh, you know, I assume like the worst one was the tennis.

Although I did meet Serena Williams' coach. I was introduced in a hurry and it was like we're both. Trying to think Brad Gilbert maybe? I mean it was so quick and we're both going, we don't know why we're talking to each other. We'd know, because you know what they do, they're like, oh you need to meet this, but it's called networking I believe,

but I do not flourish. Yeah, yeah. And I've just gone, oh you're looking very Tennessee. Oh you're looking very Tennessee. Oh, you're looking very Tennessee. Yeah, and he's like, right, gotta go. That is the voice of the great Hannah Gadsby. Hannah Gadsby was one of our very first guests on the podcast back in 2020. Hannah was one of my dream guests.

When we launched the podcast, I was like, oh, if we could get podcast, I was like, oh, if we could get Hannah, that would be the coolest thing. One of my favorite comics. They were episode five. Now they're back for episode 147. You heard me. This is episode 147.

Hannah's new show, Woof, is at the Abrons Art Center in New York City, produced by my old friends Mike LeVoy and Carly Briglia, who produced a bunch of my shows. It is fantastic show. I saw it the other night, and it just extended through October 27th. We talk about that today.

It is a great chat. I wanna thank everyone who's been coming out to my shows on the Please Stop the Ride Tour. I was just in Philadelphia on Friday. So fun. Next week, I'll just in Philadelphia on Friday. So fun. Next week I'll be in Minneapolis, Madison, Milwaukee, Champaign, Illinois, and Indianapolis. I will say all of those theaters, awesome. Minneapolis, I'm at the State Theater, which is where we did our tribute for Mitch Hedberg

way back when. And the theaters in Madison and Milwaukee are so nice. I've never played the Riverside in Milwaukee. I've only seen it and I've admired it. Champagne is a beautiful theater. Indianapolis is Clues Hall, which is sold out and is awesome. All of that is on Berbigs.com and then I'm going to go to Ann Arbor, Detroit, Dayton, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville, Asheville, Charleston, South Carolina. In Ann Arbor, of course, I will get a Zingerman sandwich. By the way, if you didn't listen last week, I did a Q&A where I answered listener questions and one of them was favorite

sandwich. I said Zingerman's in Ann Arbor. Controversial take. A lot of letters. A lot of anger out there. But I said it. And actually, to be honest with you, when I go to Detroit, I'm going to load up on some pizza in Detroit because Detroit pizza, it is not as well known as Connecticut or New York pizza, but it is a really, really strong pizza they make in Detroit. Again, I'm awaiting the letters, I'm awaiting the emails. Also, there's gonna be an additional New York announcement in one week from today. We have a super huge guest one week from today,

another super huge guest. There's gonna be a New York City announcement. One week, mark your calendars, join the mailing list. I love this episode with Hannah Gadsby. We talk about the lasting effects of Hannah's show, Nanette, and what Hannah's experience of sort of the cultural phenomenon of the show that was. I actually saw that show in its original form. I think it was in 2018 in New York City when it was at the SoHo theater. Just in a little theater downtown and when it was at the Soho Theater,

just in a little theater downtown, and then it became like this cultural phenomenon, and Hannah has really sort of thought about that a lot. They talk about it a lot in the new show. We talk about it a lot today. We talk about neurodiversity. Hannah is autistic. We talk about that.

We talk about how their new show started with the idea of Hannah writing letters to Barbra Streisand. That's right, writing letters to Barbra Streisand, which is not something that is mentioned in the actual show. We have a great working it out section. Hannah is phenomenal at working out jokes. This is a blast. This episode is... we edit every episode. This one is edited minimally because I just thought it was just one of my favorite episodes we've done in so long. Enjoy my chat with the great Hannah Gatsby.

Your show last night was fantastic. Thanks for having me. My absolute pleasure. At the last second I texted your wife, Jenny, and was like, wait, you have us down, right, for tickets? She was like, yeah. But I did get nervous. Do you ever have that where you're going to the thing,

all of a sudden you're like, wait, am I supposed to go? Do people know I'm going to? Do I have tickets for the thing? Oh my, when did I? I didn't bring my wallet on tour. Yes. Yes. So I remember a small carved aardvark,

but not my wallet. Yeah. Yes, I'm never in touch with watches. Tell me this, you brought a small carved aardvark? Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's just really nice to hold in my hand and I've sort of been clutching it for about five or six years now.

It's good, mate. How'd you, where'd you get it? My wife, my wife. Yeah, Jenny. Geno. Director. Geno. Director, producer, wallet holder, passport holder, I might be a hostage.

It's a good time. That remind, what you're describing is reminding me of my wife, Jenny, also different spelling, J-E-N-N-Y, your wife says J-E-N-N-E-Y, which by the way, AI, auto correct in my phone, turns my texting my wife into texting your wife. Oh, gosh. Yeah.

That's a loop, isn't it? Yeah. I wonder, I wonder, because I never text my wife. Because your wife's in my phone, what I mean is your wife's number is in my phone. I know. Which makes it sound more suspicious than it is. You just makes it sound more suspicious than it is. You just made it sound more suspicious than it is.

I assured her number was in your phone. And then you just did that. And now I'm like, what's happening? Well, partly her number's in my phone because you and I have been in touch for about a decade. But you are... You don't touch, do I? Yeah, you're kind of a non...

What's the term for non-tech? That's pretty good. Maybe it's a contact. Oh, a contact. I don't know what that means. Okay, let's workshop this. What's the word we're looking for, though? What's the word we're looking for though? What's the word we're looking for?

A mole. Oh. Oh, yeah. Your wife is chiming in. She's giving some things that we're actually not asked for, which are uncommunicative and unresponsive, which are, I think, not the word for non-tech. But tells us a lot.

She has to do with so much. This is hilarious. The dynamic that your wife Jenny is revealing is so similar to my wife and my dynamic. But the non-tech word is phobe. Jenny, you know this word. A Luddite. Luddite, thank you very much. Sorry, what? I'm a, you know this word. A Luddite. Luddite, thank you very much.

Sorry, what? I'm a Luddite. You're a Luddite. No. No. No? You're not averse to technology. I'm averse to contact. Oh wow.

But it's interesting because I met you, I want to say when you did Nanette at Soho, was 2018-ish, does that ring a bell? So 2018, which is I think when you met your wife, Jenny. Correct, correct. I think, I don't understand time. That's my wife also, by the way. Always claims to not understand time.

I think not understanding time is a choice. But I... It just isn't, and it's been the bane of my whole entire existence. Wow. Which is on infinite loop in my head. All I can remember is 823, and I don't know why. Let's talk about that.

My wife would probably chime in. 823, what's 823? That's the time that I was setting the alarm in the morning a couple weeks ago. Okay, okay. You're right, I just chimed in that 823 is the time she set the alarm to a few weeks ago and you remember that.

Yeah, look, what I'm trying to do with this new show of mine is to explain that, you know, I don't think clearly and in sequence of order. And I think there's something about my previous work, because I work so hard on it and do lovely structures that I think people assume that I'm a top-notch communicator. And in fact, what I do on stage is a repair of my inability to connect thoughts with speech and time.

So my wife would say that's precisely what her poetry is. Like are we married or something? I know. What's happening? There's some kind of four person marriage that is on the horizon. Oh, sounds a bit like, you know, a poly cube. It is not. It is not, it is not.

But, yeah, no, she has almost the exact same thing. She's like, here's what she'll say sometimes when we're late for God knows what. She'll just go, well, that's not who you married. Oh. You married someone who's not on time and doesn't understand time. Oh, and it is really hard for you to understand

not understanding time, I assume. I do find that challenging. Yeah, yeah. I have a joke, you know, from years ago, from Think Up For Jokes that I posted on Instagram. And it was, what lay people don't understand about us on time people is that we hate you. And the reason we hate you is it's so easy to be on time.

You just have to be early. And early lasts for hours and on time just like a second. And then you're late forever. I post it on Instagram. I receive a lot of very angry people. Not immediately though, I bet. Well done. I bet you this is just-

Tip of the cap, tip of the cap. Not immediately, yes. I don't understand time, but I have timing. That's what it is. Beautiful, by the way. What the hell's that? What's up with time? By the way, put that in your show.

Which bit? I've forgotten. Don't understand time, but I have timing. Is that in your show? No, no, that's just a little bit of, a little bit of whoosh. A little bit of whoosh. Well, that's beautiful.

I mean, and my wife would say, my know, my wife Jenny would say the same thing. It doesn't understand time, understands timing. Is this a therapy session? It's not. It's not not a therapy session. I'll say that. But yeah, it's interesting. So I posted that bit about being on time, being late, and you get a lot of neurodivergent people,

which you are. I'm not a people, that guy. Which you are of, you are of, technically. And you talk about it in the show. And people saying, I don't understand time, similar to what you're saying. And then a lot of people angry at them for saying, I don't understand that.

And it is a argument online that's spun out of control. I'm talking thousands of people arguing with people. It's just such an unnecessary argument. Yes. I think it all boils down to brains are different and we've been brainwashed otherwise. Yeah. And we're just trying to undo that

and we're trying to undo it whilst also being exposed in such a deluge to so many different ways of thinking, being very arrogant that their way of thinking is correct. So it's just a lot of shouty, shouty, crinkle brain on the internet, which has been built on a binary. So there's no actual chance for nuance. It's just zeros and ones, zeros and ones. Just write down this phrase, shouty, shouty, crinkle brain.

Because that's poetry, if I've ever heard it. Is that a phrase you've said? It's your wife a poet also, yes. Yes. Shouty, shouty, crinkle brain, is that a phrase you've said or is that? I say chatty, chattyitty crinkle brain to describe anxiety. Oh, I like that.

And when people are eating crisps in the theatre, I call that chitty-chitty crinkle bag. And I don't love that. This is so related to raising our daughter who's currently nine. Look, I haven't aged. I haven't aged since then. related to raising our daughter who's currently nine. I haven't aged since then, if we're having... Do you know when people say, oh, they're an old soul, right?

Yeah. Not me. Yeah. This is my first go round. In fact, when I hear people say that, I go, well, they must be middle-aged souls to at least know that other people have been around before. Right.

Every day's a new day. This is fresh. Yeah. Or I'm such an old soul, but I missed a few shifts. I like that too. So I'm like, you know. I missed a few shifts. Because I don't understand time,

and all of a sudden it's a millennia, and I'm like, what happens? It's, I talk about this all the time when people can relate to it because I'm sure that you find, because I relate to what you're saying. Because I'm your wife. A thousand percent.

Okay, sorry. We're not married technically. Oh no, I thought you were just projecting, I'm sorry. I relate to the thing you're saying of waking up and it feeling like a new day. Oh my. It is a shocking experience all the time. And I always compare it to the film Memento.

Do you ever see the film Memento? Oh yes, oh yes. So it's the character wakes up every day. Yes, exactly. My show's about whales. Wait, is that a whale tattoo? No, it's a stamp. I just tested it last night.

Oh my gosh. Your show has a ton of beautiful jokes and story about whales. Yeah, so if you're gonna talk about whales, it's important for there to be a ton. Ha ha ha ha! Are you writing all of your jokes for my daughter? Ha ha ha ha!

No, but there is a childish quality to me. And I feel like that sort of gets lost in the conversation because of Nanette. Because of Nanette. You get people, you know, this is a classic thing. Nanette is a beautiful show. It's a masterpiece, in my opinion. And people, I would say, it is a very common thing in culture. A lot of people don't even watch it,

or millions and millions of people watch it, maybe tens of millions, maybe 100 million people watch it. But then, and you and I were talking about this a little bit after your show last night, there's a whole group of people, probably a majority of people, who maybe won't see it, and then they hear about it, they shrink it down into, Hannah Gadsby's comedy is like blank,

and then they have an opinion about it. And then your perception, your image, is in this opinion of you, which is like, you're a storyteller, you talk about, you do comedy, but you also do really hard stuff that's challenging and et cetera. And meanwhile, the thing that gets lost in translation but is in your new show is like, you're silly.

And I know you, I've known you since I saw your show almost a decade ago, I just know you're silly, you're funny. You make jokes like the whale joke you just made about you gotta have a ton of them. I guess what it is is effectively masking. My voice I had on stage was masking and so I used to try very hard to be understood and then that was really the critical mass of that

where it's just like I've had enough, I don't hear what you think, boom. But it was more of like, you know, I was a quiet person, then I just kicked off at a family reunion, everyone's just like, whoa, you got a bit of bite. We thought you were placid. And now I'm just like, yeah, I am placid. I'm sorry. That was a bit unregulated. Right. You know, it was an unregulated potato, as we say. And because I was going, you know, it was about trauma. But and so it was in trauma, like it wasn't made up. You know, it sort of going, you know, it was about trauma, but, and so I was in trauma, like it wasn't made up, you know.

It sort of has. You know, and that's what I'm doing with this work also is like, I use my work to try and just make sense of myself and escape discomfort. And so that was like, I'm escaping, you know, trauma in this sort of, you know, situation that was that situation in time. And now I'm doing something else, but it's a very different kind of thing that I'm trying to escape, which is anxiety. So the show is necessarily different. And every one of my shows is different, but no one's quite clocked that

because they keep sort of going back and going, well, it's not in the net. Like, no shit. No shit, yeah. I mean, why would I keep doing that? It's not like Me Too movement worked. It's not like a hashtag was any actual, equal to actual structures of power. So, you got to back down and just go, I'll just talk about whales now for safety.

That's partly a joke, but also partly, I'm feeling very fatalistic at the moment. Can you unpack that a little? That's partly a joke, but also partly. I'm feeling very fatalistic at the moment. Can you unpack that a little? I'm feeling very fatalistic. So in other words, you just feel like things are going worse and then after that worse. Well.

Well, like you were saying on stage last time in your show, you beautifully put it that you feel anxiety and you're right, essentially. Yeah, and I think anxiety makes it worse. And I think that we're just exposed to everyone's anxiety and if anxiety does anything, it builds, it's like a fire. Yeah. And so, you know, but it's a fire

that's just sort of spreading in ways that we don't understand on the internet. It's decontextualized, so you don't know how your voice reverberates and there's no controls over that because it's profit first. So we've no controls over that because it's profit first. So we've just built this world where it's profit first. And to try and undo that, you undo people's lives

because we depend on capitalism, which is fine. That's the system, but the system's not great for our mental health. And so we're caught in this circle. Yeah. So that's, you know, I feel like it's rational, but I'm not sure what you can do about it. Like I'm not, you know, not an engineer,

just like Elon Musk. Yeah. Do you ever have, like you and I have this thing in common, which is we do nonlinear shows. Yes, but it's interesting that you do it, given that you understand time, maybe mine are nonlinear, cause this is just a facet of my existence. But, meanwhile.

Maybe I thought I was doing linear shows, and now I just find out I haven't been. I'm guessing in the process of touring your shows, and the current one is woof, you have to, you can go to the extreme of is woof, you can go to the extreme of nonlinear and have it make sense, but certain audiences are probably like, we're not following this.

Like, do you have that along the way where you have to calibrate the nonlinear aspects to get it to a point where an audience can get it. This show has not been the same any night. Oh. I am desperate to make sense of this show. I feel like I just found it last night. Wow. I rewrote it again last night after I got home.

It's just been a show that's been escaping me. Usually I have a sense of the shape of a show very early on. And usually how I attack a show is like two questions. What shape do I want the show? And that's informed the feeling do I want the audience to leave with. Yeah. And I've been working off that this whole time,

but I just haven't been able to let go of material that doesn't make sense in the show. And that's not a problem I've ever had. There's several reasons for that, but one of the reasons is that I did do some run-ups in clubs, because I thought, I should, you know, see if I can still do that. And it's just a different art form to do short sets. But I kind of enjoyed the rhythm of that and the punchiness of that. So the top half of my show is stacked

with that kind of rhythm. And then I've tried to make it work and understand why I can't let go of that. And the show has become that puzzle. So it started off one thing and now it's like, this is a detective game. And so I'm bringing the audience into that, like, I'm not sure what I'm doing here.

And, you know, so it's been a real struggle. So now basically what I've understood is for the show, is that every show I've written before that is like, I get closure and I tie things up into a neat little point. And originally I was like, but I don't see the point. Do we deserve a point? Do we deserve closure? And then I realized, I think the shape of this show is that

what I, is there is no closure. And that's kind of reflective of like, maybe it's unhealthy to try and have closure and letting go is a good idea. But letting go is not about closure. But letting go is not about closure. It's about there is no closure. And I've just shifted the show where it's just like, oh, how do I want to feel at the end of this show?

And that's clicked into place. Like I've been looking after how do I want the audiences to feel. And so at the end of this show, I'm just like, this is how I want to feel. And your takeaway from last night was you want to feel that there is no closure. But also, like, that's not the end of the world.

Yes. This show began with me writing letters to Barbara Streisand. Oh my God, are you serious? Yeah, that's how much this... For the listeners, for the listeners, there's no discussion of this in the show. I've only just lost the last reference. You wrote, did you write, did you send the letters? No, I didn't, but it was an exercise because I'm obviously going through some sort of crisis.

Sure. And I was trying to understand parasocial relationships. Yeah. Because, like you said, the Nanette was such a big rupture in my life. Yeah, it was a cultural phenomenon. But just for me personally, because I understood my audience as people I had performed in front of in festivals and built up slowly over the years. So when I performed Nanette live up until New York, I was talking to mostly people who at least understood

who I was and where I was, you know. And then all of a sudden I'm kind of just everywhere and I just can't wrap my brain around who I'm talking to. And I think the point is you just can't, but that's not how- Well, of course you can't, but that's not how. Well, of course you can, yeah. That's how my mind works, it's like, but maybe you can, and then I melt.

Right, because there's tens of millions of people. And then my mind melts. Yeah, sure. I don't know how to talk to them, because I think, you know, like, but I know that's like the autism just being magnified. Oh, interesting. And so I was trying to understand that

because it's not sustainable to think like that. And I was like, I need to, I need to. And so I was like, how about if I enter into a public parasocial relationship with Barbara Streisand? That's a good solution. Like then it goes, you know, so it was really fun, but it was unsustainable. I think either way, regardless of whether you put that

in the show, you should do it. This is consistent feedback. I think I might take time next year and do that. I mean, come on. It's a great idea. Thank you, I have them all the time. But yeah, so then. What was the goal?

What was the goal? What was the goal? Because Barbara Stratus is so famous, having kind of a public discourse is kind of a being, it's a metaphor for the whole thing? Well, because yeah, her fame is stratospheric. And parasocial in the extreme. Yeah, and you know, and I'm sort of in this little no man's land of, you know, neither here nor there,

and I can't quite commit to anything. And I just thought it'd be interesting to, you know, how do, like, people watching me have some sort of parasocial relationship with me, and watching me struggle with, you know, talking out loud the parasocial complexities and weirdness of it, like, I think, sort of would open up, like, them to the questions

I'm having about them, you know, without directly going, what's going on? What do you want from me? As soon as Nenek came out, I pretty much stopped going on social media. I couldn't. All you need to know about a rushing river is that it's rushing and it's dangerous to get in. Yeah. You know? So, I mean, I don't think that's great for my career because's rushing and it's dangerous to get in. Yeah. You know, so I mean,

I don't think that's great for my career. Yeah. Because you just, that's how you have to navigate it. That's the game and I can't play the game. It's just fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. You're more than fine.

I'm fine. No, I am, but I kind of want to talk about that sort of stuff in that, you know, way that, because I think so many people are experiencing it, like public-private persona, private figure and trying to separate the two. But I have an art form to lean on for that. Most people just being themselves. And branding humans has never gone well for the human. Make a list of how many comedians you know who've done television shows they've named after themselves.

Oh yeah. And stayed a good guy. Yes. Let's put that called the slow round. What's the best piece of advice that someone's given you that you used? Like, I always change my mind. I have to change my mind. Yeah.

Because sometimes I make my mind up in a context where it works and then it's like that advice is no longer relevant. Jenny. Oh, this is, and who gave me that advice, Jenny? Who gave me that advice? The thing is, it's like, didn't I make up this advice? What do you give it to me? Your consult, by the way, for the listeners,

you're consulting your wife in the room right now, and it turns out it's advice that you gave, and you apparently say. Which I feel like, but yeah. I made it up. My whole life is built around, the puzzle of my life is like, this is unsustainable.

How can I solve this? Are existence people or you? No, my existence. I do have autism and it is really hard. And I have a lot of sensory situations that are just really overwhelming. And I'm in doing this job, which is like, you know, I really enjoy doing, I really enjoy the thinking of it,

but it's a balance between finding, you know, not getting overwhelmed and overstimulated because that then gets on a bad cycle. Anyway, so this is a lot of our life. And I do this thing where I'm like, oh, here's an idea I'm having, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I have an idea. And I'm just surrounded by so many capable people

and they're like, we've made this idea work. And I'm like, oh, good God, I've moved on. So then, so I like, you know, I can't keep doing this to people because people work and people have time, you know, they spend time to make things. And I'm like, so we shake the tree on it. That's when I decide I'll just shake it. So when I say, I have this idea, let's shake the tree on it. Best advice I ever got that I made up.

That's great advice. And I relate to it entirely because I'm constantly spouting out ridiculous ideas that days later I realize are completely ridiculous. I just want to understand the exact analogy. When you say shake the tree, do you mean, what's the metaphor exactly? I just don't know enough about trees. I just like trees. What's wrong with you? Talk to me. Shake the tree and make sure maybe it doesn't fall down. If things fall out of the tree, so you shake the tree and you see what's solid and what stays there.

There you go. Yeah. Oh, that's great. It's also very dangerous. They're shaking the tree for things to fall out. That's gonna fall on your head. This rarely happens. Unless you use a thing.

This rarely happens on the show. Stealing it. What's that? I'm gonna say to my wife all the time, let's shake the tree on that. Oh, sure, sure. It's a great point. It also speaks to this exact thing we're talking about.

I should write a self-help book. It's also speaking to this exact thing we're talking about social media. Not enough shaking the tree. First thought, hot take. First thought, hot take. And it's madness. There's no peace in it. It's a, an electrical pulse.

Yes. No, it's, but shake the tree. Yeah. See how, see, see if it stays up, see what falls out. Yeah, yeah. Give it a few days. Yeah. Yeah, so you say that to yourself.

Because I was so used to working alone completely. And like, it has been an extreme pivot. Yeah. So you say that to yourself. Because I was so used to working alone completely and like it has been an extreme pivot. And then, so now I'm like slowly understanding how to navigate this new world because it is huge change. Yeah. And I'm autistic and I don't deal well with change. And so I'm struggling to process it because I struggle to process things. And then the world had a pandemic and a situation and things just have not stopped unraveling for the world. The world is going through something also. So I'm finding myself like,

you know, just unsteady on a macro, on a micro level. And in sitting in this point of like we're all grappling with concepts of public and private persona and the ideas of context without time and control and the splintering of ourselves into the ether. So I... Yeah. No, that makes sense. I mean, even like there was an SNL impression of you, that's how big your fame is that this pop platform,

comedy platform assumes that the people watching will know this comedian, not just this comedian, but an impression of this comedian. Yeah, it's interesting. The SNL thing is interesting because it is like, it's not just that, but it's also on SNL, isn't it? Like it's, you know, like I haven't hosted SNL. Yes.

Do you know what I mean? So there's like- No, I think it's better though. No, I don't mind. I actually think it's better than hosting SNL. You don't even have to show up. Yeah, right. Do you like it?

I didn't like the cropped pants. It's like, you know. Yeah, there's something about that level of fame that that must be disorienting to see that someone, you're that famous that someone could do an impression of you on SNL. Yeah, like a lot of that's disorientating and that famous people know me, that's always odd.

Yes. Because it was just a moment. Right. And particularly because I didn't have my head in that game. So I'm meeting all sorts of people, I'm just like, I don't know who you are. Yeah, it wasn't the end game. No.

Yeah, you just did a show you're passionate about and then it exploded. I don't like to do things where there's a significant chance I'll fail. Like I keep my, you know, my, I have a lot of ambitions for my work, like as a piece, but like I don't shoot for the stars. People like me don't shoot for the stars.

Like, you know, we belong on the earth. It's fine. But, so I didn't have my head in that game. You know, I wasn't going, oh, this person, like, you know, if I took any notice of, you know, film and TV, it was like, I'd have a deep dive and watch one thing, right? And just, so, I know, like, and then I'm like, meeting Jennifer Aniston,

and she's like, oh, you know, she, you know, I assume like, the worst one was the tennis. Tennis star? No. Well, I did meet Serena Williams' coach. Oh. I was introduced in a hurry and it was like- Trying to think Brad Gilbert maybe?

I mean, it was so quick and we're both going, we don't know why we're talking to each other. We'd know. Because you know what they do, they're like, oh, you need to admit this, but it's called networking, I believe. Oh, sure. But I do not flourish.

Yeah, yeah. And I've just gone, oh, you're looking very Tennessee. Non-communicative. That's what I said. Is what I've heard that you are. I tried though. From your wife. I tried.

I said, you're looking very Tennessee. Oh, you're looking very Tennessee. Yeah, and he's like, right, got to go. Oh my God. But then Drew, we're watching it. We're in Billie Jean King's box, which is a brag everyone should enjoy. But it was fine. It was all a bit much. It was fun. I was watching the tennis. It was a lovely time. A lot of information, like a lot of visual stimulation.

It is a lot of visual stimulation. Yes. And they did that thing where they're like, oh, look, there's a famous person in the crowd. Oh, they did that. It was Neil Sardakis, and they just pumped out Calendar Girl, which is a very old reference. I listen to 50s music, I'm not meant to be. But that was the song they played for you.

Not for me, it was Neil Sadakis. Oh, okay, that's who's in the booth with you. No, no, no, just in the crowd. Okay. And then it goes up, and then there's Anna Wintour, and then, oh, Anna Wintour. Oh, okay, wow, yeah. You know, they're just going, let's spot all the famous people.

Yeah, yeah. His story's not going where you think it is. So you can just rest your short. They don't put it on me and go, no, that's not what's happening. What happened is, I've forgotten her name, Anna Kendrick. Anna Kendrick goes up and I'm just like, I knew who Anna Wintour was and Neil Siddarkis, which is not the same as Ted Lasso.

He's the singer from the 50s, I believe. Okay. This is my world, right? This is my cult reference. And a Kendrick comes on. No idea. Yeah. No idea. And it's just like, I missed the Pitch Perfect films.

Yeah, yeah. And I missed... Up in the air. Yeah, all of the things. All of the things, I missed them. Right, whatever. My bad. But, so I Googled. I missed them, right, whatever, my bad.

But so I Googled, I'm like, oh, oh, okay, because I knew I understood the concept of Pitch Perfect, it's good singing and it has Rebel Wilson in it, right? Right, yeah, one of your compatriots. Yeah, I'm putting some pieces together, okay, I can contextualize her. I'm like, oh, she's been in what I close my phone and called Ogres for a while, but it's trolls.

So like, so this is where we're going. I'm overstimulated, bear with me. And then when we go, we're leaving, and then I said to Jenny, as we're waiting for our car to pick us up, I said, hey, Jenno, like, there's that girl from Ogres. Oh, there's the girl from Ogres, yep. You know, no, it's not. You're hot on the trail. I'm so hey, Geno, there's that girl from Ogres. Oh, there's the girl from Ogres, yeah. You know, that is not.

You're hot on the trail. I'm so sorry, Anna. You're hot on the trail of the Ogres cast. I mean... Oh my gosh. And of course I was with a publicist who does this for a living, and she's like, you want to meet?

And I'm like, before I could say no, she's cross. She's like, Hannah Gadsby's here, I'd like to meet you. And I'm like, and Anna Kendrick turns around and goes, shut the front door, oh my God. So she's a fan of me and I'm like, ogres. Ogres, yeah. That's a lot of dissonance right there because I've since found out, like, oh, wow.

Major, major star. Yeah, and excellent talent, like, wow, right? But that's not where I was at. And so we had this amazing, and of course, Brittany Snow was there also, who I also understand is quite... From which perfect. Yes, I do. I have not seen the films as yet, but I'm well familiar with the IDP.

I don't think she was in Ogres though. No, I don't think, yeah, I don't think anyone was in Ogres. No. I made up a genre. Anyway, so this is not a genre. Yeah. Yeah, whatever. Anyway, so there's this photo that exists

of me standing between these two little superstars and they're just put together. They know how to do it. And you can tell, in the image, they're just like... Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, ugh. They have picture face. They have the picture face thing.

I don't know. I'm so much bigger. I don't know. I'm just really... You put your arms up in the air like a scarecrow. Yeah, what do arms do? Like, I'm like a, I'm like a. Oh my gosh.

I feel like Forrest Gump all the time. Sure. You know? I'm sure you do. Yeah, I relate to that so much. And it's, anyway, I'm going to get to the next slow round question. Let's do it. This one, this one took 15 minutes,

the slow round question. We should took 15 minutes, the slow round question. We should have shaken the tree on the way out. All right, what is a time in your life when you remember feeling pure joy? Every day's a new day. Surely I've had it recently. Oh, I found a frog. That's very cool.

It wasn't even a real one. Do you have the picture? You can show the picture. I don't know whether we'll just get Mike's reaction to my face with joy on it. I don't think anyone's really met it. It's a fake frog. It's a fake frog, but that is pure joy.

You are very happy. Where, okay. I'm in a truck stop in New happy. Okay, question, where? I'm in a truck stop in New Jersey. Oh, okay. And some poor kid left a frog on the table, probably their favorite toy. They're probably really sad about it.

And I found him and I loved him. Oh, wow. You still have him? Yep. I broke his leg. Geez. I didn't mean to. it's not a hostage situation. Is there a song that makes you cry? No. No. Don't get choked up at music.

I don't cry that much. You don't cry that much? No. That's interesting. I have a lot of feelings that don't get to a fine point. Yeah. It's interesting in relation to your shows because you talk, I don't want to give anything away,

but you talk about your dad and the stuff about your dad I find very emotional. Like when you perform it, do you get emotional? No, I think my griefs come out as anxiety. Oh, that's interesting. At this point. I did cry once, but that was because I had laser eye surgery. Oh my God.

Honestly. Okay. So I try to work out material on the show, and if you have material that's sort of half-baked or kind of half stories or things, we can throw it out. But I wanted to, I'm just working on stuff having to do with my dad. It's interesting, you and I are dealing with a little bit different stuff with our dad, but thematically similar. And I've been working on this stuff on my tour lately

that's kind of half-baked things about my dad, about how he would, when I was a kid, he'd fly off the handle about things, and then he would solve them and then he'd have other problems and he'd be like, where's that goddamn watermelon? And he was like, I found the watermelon. And be like, where's the goddamn knife?

I found the knife. He's still yelling about the solution. At a certain point I'm like, I think this isn't about watermelon. I think it's just anger that wants to manifest. And I threw that out this week on stage, and it's pretty good, but it's like, I don't know, I wanted to throw it up to discuss.

Sounds like he's overwhelmed. I know. Sounds like he's an unregulated potato there. Yeah, an unregulated potato, I think, is an accurate way to describe it. Yeah, he's a really frustrating place to be unable to look after yourself. Like, find a knife and a melon in a kitchen, I assume.

We weren't in a shed. No, no, no. Like, these things are probably going to be there. So I feel like that's an unregulation that's happening there. I think you're right. But also the running commentary always amuses me. Yes, my Jenny describes me as the narrator

of our marriage who nobody asked for. No, your dad was too. Yeah, my dad was like that too. Yeah, no, and maybe that's a tie in the show. Yeah, you're just like, I don't wanna be like a basic narrator like my I don't want to be like a basic narrator like my dad. I'm going to be really cool.

He's like, where's the knife? Where's the melon? I got him. Like that's not a story, is it? You can't sell tickets to that. Yes. That? No, I think you're absolutely right.

I think that what you're pointing out, I'm going to definitely try in the show. Please do. The thing that I you're pointing out, I'm gonna definitely try in the show. Please do. The thing that I'm trying to figure out in my head in real time is. Do you like your dad? No, I do love my dad.

It's a little joke, tell you that. I feel things about him. But I think the thing I'm trying to figure out is, how do I tie those two things together thematically in a way that it's not telling the audience that I'm tying them so directly together. You shake the tree on it and if a melon falls out... Yep.

I stab it. I don't know that you don't necessarily... Look, I think audiences like it when you go, hey. Yep. Like I don't think people, I think sometimes hiding something like that is hiding a little bit of joy that people enjoy. That's really interesting, yeah,

because I'm imagining a part of the show where I talk about being the narrator of our marriage or nobody asked for, and then potentially I could pivot into, my dad was like that when I was a kid. He'd have the solution and he'd blah, blah, blah. He'd go, where's the knife? Do you zoom out and then narrate the show?

Yeah. Great. Yeah. That's interesting. Do you do crowd work and then narrate the crowd work? Yeah, sometimes, yeah. I love that. That's always a fun. Zoom out.

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's lovely. This is a perfect example of working it out. Sometimes people will say to me, you don't work out enough on your show. And I go, well, sometimes it has to do with the guests, how interested they are in working it out. Sometimes people will say to me, you don't work out enough on your show. And I go, well, you know, sometimes it has to do with the guests, how interested they are in working ideas out.

And it was one of the things I love about you. You do love talking about process and kind of breaking things apart. Yeah, it's much nicer way to spend your time than stabbing melons. Well, and I think the thing that you're describing, which is that he was a live wire, so to speak, I think part of it has to do with control

because he'd be at work as a doctor, and he'd say scalpel, and someone hand him a scalpel. This is my life, yeah. Yeah. Shake the tree on it. Do I need a scalpel? And then he'd come home and he goes, where's the rake? And I'd be like, I'm watching the Celtics.

You know, and he'd be like, where's the goddamn rake? You know what I mean? And I'd be like, Larry Bird just hit a three pointer. You know, he's like, this is not. I just literally spilled tea on myself doing his bit. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. Which I cannot replicate.

That's alarming for a doctor. Oh, I know. But I, but I, but. But it must be high stress. Supposedly at work, very calm. Well, you'd have to be, but what you got is like a day of calm. Yeah.

And then you come home and you want to rank. I know. You want to rank. This is just, I mean, it's just the world men built. Oh, do you think that's a man thing? No, I think it's the world men built. Oh, do you think that's a man thing? No, I think it's the world men built. Oh, interesting. It's like where, you know, there used to be men,

but it can be anyone these days, it's just given everything and like, you're the guy and we're going to clear everything and you don't have to regulate your emotions at all. We're going to make sure that you don't have to do that. And then they don't and they swan through life. And then their first little hiccup, they lose their minds. Yeah.

I think you're absolutely right. So we just need to make everyone's life, who has a nice little bit harder, so we can make everyone's life a little bit easier. Yeah. I don't think women need to be paid equal to men in sport. I think men in sport need to be paid a little bit less. That's a great joke.

Have you done that as a joke? No. Oh, come on, you gotta use that. I'm very busy. I know you're busy, but come on. You're one of these people, I always say this about Malayne, I've known for years and years.

One of these people, you and John, a handful of other people, someone should be chasing you with a notebook every day and just writing down stuff you say. The thing you just said is a fully formed joke. It should be on stage. You just whip it off and then you're like, is that a joke? No, it's just a thing I thought.

It's like that, Milani's like that too. I mean, this is absurd. That's that a joke? No, yeah, it's just a thing I thought. It's like that, Milani's like that too. I mean, this is absurd, that's not a joke. I've forgotten what it was. It's just about women. Women shouldn't be paid more, men should be paid less. It's a great joke. Is it a joke or is it just smart?

Yes, it is. Is it just smart? Yeah, but it's a truism. It's a truism. Yeah, okay, well I'll see. I don't think we're allowed any more jokes in this show. All right. We'll keep it.

I'll get one of these. Fair enough. I'll get one of these. Maybe you could help me fix this, because this is a joke I think is always, I always think is funny as an idea. I've done it in front of an audience, nothing. Okay, classic. My dad always came to my soccer games,

but it wasn't a great fit, because I wasn't good at soccer. So I felt like I wasn't properly showcased. And he'd always say this phrase, he goes, it doesn't matter if you win, it only matters if you try. But he always seemed to enjoy it most when I was winning, and he never seemed to notice when I was trying.

And I think it just makes people sad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, do you want a joke there? Maybe, maybe not. Because that doesn't have the you want a joke there? Maybe. Because that doesn't have the rhythm of a joke. That's interesting. So you just think it's, it could fit in the show, but maybe you just live in it. Yeah, like I think you're just, what you're saying there is like you have complicated feelings. Yeah.

And that's a good, and like I think it's perfectly acceptable for a joke about soccer not to have a goal. Yeah, nice. Score. Thanks. How about that? They don't laugh? One nil. It's a joke about soccer.

Sometimes there's no something. I hear what you're saying though. You're saying it's an interesting piece of emotion, but it doesn't necessarily have to be funny. Did he notice when you tried and you won? Yeah. Or you tried, he just didn't notice when you tried because he's too busy noticing that you lost.

I think so, yeah. It's because he wants to know where things are all the time. Right. He doesn't fit. Where's the rake? Where's the melon? Where's the goal? Right. I think he's very goal-orientated. Right. Ooh. I like that Where's the rake? Where's the melon? Where's the goal? Right.

I think he's very goal-oriented. Right. Ooh. I like that. Goal-oriented, a little soccer joke. That seems really nice. I'm gonna work, I'm gonna- Shake the tree on that.

I'm gonna shake the tree on that. Obviously we have the title of the episode. Shake the tree. Shake the tree. I have a little joke. What do you got? It's in the show. Okay.

And I love it. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And I don't know why. But it's the one where I talk about grief. I'm anxious about exploring grief as a public person because there's no roadmap for how autistic people are supposed to grieve. But you can, you know, you can grieve incorrectly as a public person.

It's true. I saw it on the nightly news in the 1980s. That dingo did take that lady's baby. And she still went to jail because she did sad wrong. Wait, I laughed at that joke, however. Because I said the word dingo. No, because I knew roughly the dingo ate my baby reference, but I didn't know it well enough to fully grasp the joke.

Can you tell me what the news story was? Well. And did she go to jail? Is that real? She went to jail for killing her baby, but the dingo took the baby to fully grasp the joke. Can you tell me what the news story was? Well- And did she go to jail? Is that real? She went to jail for killing her baby, but the dingo took the baby and it was the media pile on and corruption and people were like, well, she's not sad.

Like, look at her, she's not sad. She's not crying in the right places. Why would you put a black matinee jacket on a baby? There's something wrong with you. You're doing sad wrong. But, and she went to jail. But she- And she was exonerated.

Oh, she was exonerated. She didn't kill her baby, it was the dingo. It was a dingo. It actually was the dingo, and she said the dingo, I'm a baby. But the way she said it- No, that's the way Meryl Streep said it. Oh.

Dingo took my body, body. Oh, gosh. Like it's haunted me my whole life, Merrill. Oh my gosh. I think we have to unpack that the reason maybe the joke isn't receiving the thing that you wanted to receive is I only know the phrase Dingo ate my baby. That's all I know.

No, I'm just. I don't know there's a movie, I don't know there's, I don't know what the news story is. No, it's just that it's getting inconsistent. So I don't know how to work out what to do with the joke because sometimes people just laugh and I think it's just because I say dingo. Right.

Or that you're saying dingo, eight and baby in component parts and we know that story roughly. Yeah. I think honestly like- It's just got the rhythm of the joke. Well, yeah, exactly. And for American audience, I would say for American audiences,

I think that you should try, I mean, you're here for a few more weeks. It's like, I would try doing it where you literally explain the story because I think that the joke will kill. It is also a show full of references that I- It's got a lot of references, yeah. Don't care if everyone gets them all.

Right, no, I get it. But there's also like the, because it is a repetition of mine. I saw it on the nightly news in the 1980s. Yeah. So that's why it's. But I think you have to at least give a half sentence to the story in the news.

It was huge in Australia where a woman's baby was killed. I don't know. Now too long, even now too long. I should get you to come on and be the narrator. Yeah, that's what you need. And then you're just like, I'll just pause and you come out, what's happening here? Hannah doesn't want to explain this to you.

So you're sitting in a bit of confusion and Hannah is not really, Hannah's being a little selfish about this because more concerned about the rhythm of the delivery. But talking about a new story in the 1980s. This podcast is a prank show where comedians come on and then I explain to them that I'm going to be the official narrator of their show from now on.

I really enjoyed narrating a show just then. All right, very briefly, I do think half a sentence of there's a news story that was blank, blank, blank, move to the joke. That's how I feel. Or do the joke in after. What I'm here for is the blank, blank, blank. That's what we're working out.

What is the blank, blank, blank? No, but I'm saying. How do I describe this whole cultural phenomenon with blank, blank, blank? This is what we're working out. I just said it a second ago and then you go, no, it's too long. Yes, and now it's blank.

Let me say, maybe it's too short now. Blank, blank, blank. I'm saying blank, blank, blank. There might be something in the middle. I'm saying, I'm doing shouty, shouty, crinkle brain. Shouty. So is it like, Lindy Chamberlain? No, I don't want her to know.

Like. No, I would literally just go, there's a new story from the 1980s where- Do you think they've not put that together with context clues? I saw it on the night. I'm telling you, I couldn't. I mean, I think of myself as an astute audience member and I couldn't put it together.

And I grew up in the same exact era. I would literally just say, there's a new story in the 1980s, all you need to know is everyone thought that this woman killed her baby, but the dingo ate the baby, blank joke. Blank joke? Or do I, I don't remember that.

Blank, blank, blank, shouty, shouty, crinkle friend. It's been very helpful. I do think that this is good advice. Are you being facetious? No, this is a problem I have. When I try to be sincere, I focus really hard on, I really want to communicate sincerity, and then I just really disarm people,

and they go, you're taking the piss. Well, your wife has told me you are non-communicative. And unresponsive. And unresponsive. And unresponsive. The last thing we do is work it out for a cause, a nonprofit you think is pretty good. And we give money to them and then we link to them in the show notes. Okay.

It's the Autistic Self Advocacy Network. Awesome. They're a nonprofit organization. The motto is, nothing about us without us. That's so beautiful. Thank you, I did not write that. Nothing, I know you didn't write it, but it's beautiful. So it's- Nothing about us without us.

Yeah, it's autistic run. And it like, it's just trying to help autistic people and exist really. Yeah. And you know, be in charge of their own lives and offering support to do that. It's not a lot of autistic charities work to try and cure autism.

That is not what this is about. It's about empowering and enabling and providing external scaffolding. And also advocating that it's not just sort of straight white cis men who work in Silicon Valley who have autism. Like every community, every walk of life has neurodiversity and that's something to be celebrated

and needs to be accommodated because the world is built for one kind of brain and that's unsustainable. That's beautiful. I think you're a phenomenal role model for that community and I think it's great that you support that organization and will contribute to them. We hope the listeners will as well. Thank you. Thanks Hannah, thanks for coming on. It's such an honor. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can follow Hannah on Instagram at Hannah underscore Gadsby. You can get tickets to their new show, Woof!

in New York City at hannahgadsby.com.au. And the full video of this is on YouTube. Check that out, subscribe. We're gonna be posting more and more videos. It's been a blast on there. Almost 50,000 subscribers at this point, which is just a whole new thing in the last year. And I really appreciate you going over there

and watching the episodes. Watching the episodes I find interesting because I don't watch every episode but every now and then like with the Jack Antonoff episode I watched it and the body language tells you a lot about what is happening at that moment And and this episode is great for that too. Check that out and subscribe Check out Burbiggaz.com and sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about my upcoming shows Our producers are working it out on myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simon, sound mix by Shub Saron. Supervising engineer Kate Belinsky, special thanks of course to Jack Antonoff

and Bleachers for their music. They crushed at Madison Square Garden. Unbelievable show. As always special thanks to my wife the poet J-Hope Stein. Her book Little Astronaut is now available as an audio book. She has a beautiful voice. I highly recommend it. Special thanks, as always, to my daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. By the way, thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts.

We're almost at 4,000 user reviews. We have come a long way since 2020 when we started the podcast. We've almost 150 episodes. They're all free. There's no paywall. We've had Jimmy Fallon and Kate Berlant and Chris Gethard. You can listen to our entire back catalog anywhere you get your podcasts. Comment on Apple Podcasts. Which one is your favorite? So new listeners know where to go. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell anywhere you get your podcasts, comment on Apple Podcasts, which one is your favorite. So new listeners know where to go. Thanks most of all to you who are listening.

Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Let's say you're at a tennis tournament, tennis match, and someone wants to introduce you to Anna Kendrick, which is a great honor. Of course, Anna Kendrick is practically royalty, but you can't quite remember the name of the franchise that she leads. It's Trolls.

So what you do is you're about to meet her, you put your earbuds in, and then when you meet her, you go, oh, I was sorry, I was just listening to this podcast where Mike Birbiglia talks to other creatives about the creative process and jokes. Crisis averted. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.