Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 156. Stephen Colbert Returns: A Gift from the Comedy Gods

Episode Date: January 13, 2025

This week the legendary Stephen Colbert returns to the podcast. Mike and Stephen discuss the behind-the-scenes of Stephen’s Late Night job as well as his Chicago improv days. Stephen talks wisdom passed down to him by David Letterman, Del Close, and Mike Nichols, and shares what makes him cry most easily. Plus, Stephen’s thoughts on meeting George Lucas and the Pope.Please consider donating to: World Central Kitchen or Radio Lollipop

My first person I studied any improv with was Del Close. And a lot of people had a guru relationship to him. Some people, not a lot, but some people did. I never did. I might not have, like, probably when I was younger, I was too emotionally distant to actually allow myself to join the cult, if you know what I mean. And also too much of a skeptic to get involved in the cult,

even though some part of myself, the part whose father died when he was young was like, you be my daddy. It was, I'm sure in there, but I never acted on it. That's a fitting aside to say, he used to say, you're not improvising. You're just letting the universe channel through you if you just open up all your senses.

That's it. Your job is to open up all the stops on the organ and so that you, so it can just flow through you. And he would take out his little pentagram and put it on his chest before he performed. Because he said the stage was a sacred space. And it is. I mean, showstoppers.

Stephen Colbert throwing showstopping pitches all day. LAUGHS MUSIC All day. That is the voice of the great Stephen Colbert. Stephen Colbert? Come on. This podcast has everybody. We feel very lucky to have Stephen today in the studio.

We had him remotely a few years back and it was one of our favorite episodes of all time and we were so excited to have him in the studio. What can you say about this legend of a man? He is, he has made some of my favorite comedy of all time. He and I also were among the comedians who visited the Vatican last year, so we talk about that. We talked about it with David Sedaris on the podcast a few weeks ago,

so check out that if you haven't heard it. So excited for this episode today, and thanks everybody who came out to my shows at the Englert Theatre in Iowa City this past weekend. I had such a great time. We have a big announcement today. We added a fifth show, count them five,

New York City shows. The show is called the good life it is at the Beacon Theatre in New York City it is the finale March 16th 6 p.m. tickets are on sale today Monday January 13th at 10 a.m. Eastern get the tickets now on Burbiggs comm before I do my shows at the Beacon Theatre New York I'm gonna be doing some shows in Northampton and Burlington, Vermont. As a matter of fact, I just added three shows

in West Palm Beach, Florida. I performed at the Kravis Center in November. The tickets went really fast, so we added three more shows in February. It is February 13, 14, 15. It's the Pearson Playhouse, which is at the Kravis Center for the Performing Arts. Those shows are going to be so fun.

And I have a great chat today with Stephen Colbert. Obviously, Stephen's known as the host of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert and The Colbert Report. But of course, Chicago Improv is a legend of Chicago Improv and Second City. We talk about that a lot today. We talk about why improv is such a creatively satisfying experience.

I even tried to convince Steven to come and improvise with me and my friends from the group, Please Don't Destroy. Will Steven come and improvise with us? Find out today. Enjoy my chat with the great Steven Colbert. Okay, so how do I interview you best? What's the best? You are being an expert interviewer. How would you come You are being, you're an expert interviewer.

How would you come at this? I'm an expert interviewer, but I do like talking to people on the show. Sometimes actually that's my favorite part of the show. Just talking to people. Often it's my favorite part of the show. That's what I like about your show so much is that it does feel like real conversations

with real people. I wanted it to be a talk show. But I think what people respond to, I mean, hopefully, because what I like is that just two real people really having a conversation, that organic nature of it has got something kind of ineffable that I don't think an audience would be able to define,

but you just know when we're really talking and having fun. So I don't know how to interview me. My life's an open book, generally speaking. I don't have nothing to hide, so do your dirtiest. You know so much stuff. I have a good memory. You have a good memory. I'm not that smart.

People think I'm smart, but they usually mistake intelligence for a good memory. Yeah, but you have a good memory, gonna walk you back on this one. I have a reference level that people associate with being smart, but that's not, Evy, my wife, is much smarter than I am.

John Stewart, much smarter than I am. Paul Dinello, much smarter than I am. Because I think they are clearer thinkers. And I think, when I think of intelligence, I think of ability to analyze a situation and then have clarity in your response to it. You know, like, I think Paul's much better at like directing or putting together a running order

or something like that. Yeah. But I have, again, I have this memory that seems like I'm smart. In fact, I can just memorize anything. That's crazy because that tracks that your background is in improv because I think improv is so much about just associations.

Quick associations, this to this to this to this, and then next scene. Paying attention too, like paying attention so that you can make those associations. I don't have a lot of computing power, but I have a lot of desktop memory. So I can refer to things very quickly and I can pay attention and keep a lot of stuff in mind.

I can memorize strings of numbers and shit like that. When that is sort of a synecdoche for being able to keep a lot of things very quickly and I can pay attention and keep a lot of stuff in mind. I can memorize strings of numbers and shit like that. When that is sort of a synecdoche for being able to keep a lot of stuff in your mind or absorb a lot of stuff when you're improvising and then spit it back out when it's fitting. Right. You know, it would be useful or something like that. But that's not the same thing as like having computing power.

Oh, wow. That's interesting because I was talking. And I'm a huge fan of me. I'm like, this is not, this is not me. I'm not dumping on interesting because I was taught. And I'm a huge fan of me. I'm like, this is not me. I'm not dumping on me when I say this. I just think that I'd be deluding myself if I thought I was as smart as my wife. That's really interesting because.

I've never won an argument with her. Oh, really? Because she sees it more clearly than I do. And I have to admit, like, oh no, you actually. She sees the zoom out more clearly. Yeah, and also the granular. And the granular. Everything, yeah.

Like what's the typical argument that you'll have with your wife? What do you argue over? What's the argument that happens again and again? It's been so long. This we've had a real good argument. An actual argument. Yeah, I mean, just planning the day

would be an argument for me, because I refuse to. Oh. Matter of fact, we were just doing another interview. She and I have a cookbook and we were doing Terry Gross. And I mean, not to flex on you, but I just did Terry Gross. And on the way there, she wanted to do, she wanted to plan like what the weekend was going to be.

I'm like, no, I'd like to just enjoy myself in the half hour before I go on with Terry because I wanna be relaxed and happy before I go on. And nothing makes me more tense and anxious than planning. That's interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. Are you able to do that with your life? You host a talk show with this,

so when they turn on the cameras. I'm looked out like nobody's business. I am someone who lucked into having an enormous team of people who pushed me in the right direction at every moment of the day. Someone tuck you in a room half hour before to give you time to think of nothing? Kind of, I mean, I have to shower and shave and dress,

and that takes about a half an hour. And I put on a little music in the shower and I listened to a little music and I showered, I take my time, shave and everything like that. And that brings the blood pressure down a little bit from the day of writing and producing, which is a totally other level. It's a whole other job.

A whole other job, exactly. There's the writing job, there's the producing job. And then there's kind of the show business job, like dealing with the network or staff management and stuff like that, which is not as a huge part of my job, but it's not of the show business job, like dealing with the network or staff management and stuff like that, which is not a huge part of my job, but it's not no part of my job. But as our business goes, there are a lot more chaotic ways to live than what I live,

because I know where I'm going to be. I'm going to be at 1697 Broadway at the Ed Sullivan Theater. And I know what time I'm going to be in there in the morning. And I know what time'm gonna be. I'm gonna be at 1697 Broadway at the Ed Sullivan Theater. And I know what time I'm gonna be in there in the morning. And I know what time my first meeting is and my second meeting is. And I know what I do exactly after that and which turn I could do at my sleep. And this is what the day is getting laid out.

It is packed like peanuts in a Snickers bar. And I don't have to be organized. The show is a matrix that gets pressed over the Play-Doh-like flesh of my brain. And it cuts my attention. It cuts my attention into all these little boxes. And I just have to stay upright and get to the next thing. You're really taking the romance out of this.

You know, Mike Nichols had a thing. I'm a huge Mike Nichols fan, he had this thing which is he never wanted to be an actor because he didn't want to be a baby. His whole thing was like, actors get treated like babies. They're placed here, they're placed here, they're placed there, they're a child. And that always made sense to me

because I was like, yeah, that's by design because if they don't have the actor in the place that they have them in, then they're losing money by the second. Well, you know, you're the child in your whole thing. Well, you've made me think of so many different things by first of all, quoting Mike Nichols. But this is more of my favorite Mike Nichols quotes

was from the book, Something Wonderful Right Away, which is sort of the first and still one of the best books about the Compass and early second city in Chicago, in Proff Theater, is that one of, I believe one of the chapter titles is, if you were alive, would you laugh at this? And it was, I think he's talking to Paul Shepherd and I think it's Nichols talking to Shepard.

One of the original Compass players. And they're watching this rehearsal over and over and over and over and over and over. And Nichols turns to Shepard and goes, if you were alive, would you laugh at this? And that's how it feels sometimes after you've worked on a piece of comedy for forever and ever and ever.

You're dead to it at a certain point. If you were alive, would you laugh at this? Yeah, there's no longer any spark or a frisson there. It's like hard to recapture that. That's why it's difficult to re-improvise something because you're inured to what was organically special about it the first time. Oh, absolutely.

So the second thing is you just said baby, actors are babies. John Stewart and I have had many conversations about this and he puts it in a beautiful way. And he said, the hard thing to understand for you as the person who's on camera, but also for the staff and it can be frustrating for the people around you is that it's necessary that you be both the daddy

and the baby at the same time. Cause daddy gets to say we're having steak, but you have to cut up the steak so the baby doesn't choke on it. Yeah. And so that's a lot of the day is that you get to make a lot of global decisions about what the like direction of the show

might be on any given day. And now it's everybody else's job to make sure that you, the person who has to go has the privilege and the, you know, the opportunity to go present that and the responsibility to present whatever you guys did together today out in the world, doesn't choke on the ambition of the guy who made the decision.

Oh my gosh. That is very well put. John Stewart often does that. That is what I found. That's what I said, he's smarter than I am. Well, that's kind of the truism of a lot of these companies, like Steve Jobs with Apple, for example, like there was a period of time where he wasn't there anymore

and people were like, what the hell is this company? And they have to figure out like, who's the, now it's a cook or whatever, Tim Cook. Now it's Tim Cook, but it's like, but for a period of time, there's like, they had nobody who was that. But it's like, that's your that, you're the daddy and the baby at your show.

And if you weren't, no one would be, there's nobody. There's no one who's gonna fill in for your job. You don't have a fill in? I don't have a permanent guest host, no. Yeah, you don't have a guest host. No one did that for a long time until Kimmel started doing it. Because he wanted to take the summers off.

It's funny you should say that about Kimmel, because I sat in for Kimmel when he had COVID. And it is a certain type of life that you guys have. It's really packed for like so much of the day and then it's wide open after that, you know. Seven o'clock, seven o'clock. You can't let it go on a daily basis. You can actually, you can unplug.

You kind of have to unplug because the day is so intense. There's so many decisions. And as my executive producer, Tom Purcell says, when it comes to all these decisions that you're making, you're making like maybe 15 an hour that you can't go back on. And he says, do not reverse severe tire damage is the sign over Tom's head.

In other words, we made a decision, let's live with that decision to move forward. That's interesting. We don't, you know. Right, reverse tide. Don't go backwards on those spikes. Yes. I agree.

By the way. It's thin ice. And by thin ice, we mean at certain points on the pond, the ice is much thinner and it would be dangerous for you to skate there. Wait, I have a question. Did you ever meet Mike Nichols? I did, I did.

I was at the Kennedy Center Honors. And it was whatever year Meryl Streep was being honored because she was there being honored. And I had interviewed her before and I walked by her table to say hi and I didn't know she was sitting next to Mike Nichols because his back was to me. And she said, oh, Steven, oh, Mike wants to meet you.

Oh my gosh. And he turned around and goes, oh, hello. And he started talking to me about some of the work we were doing at the Colbert report. And I remember the whole time he was talking going, remember this, remember this, remember this, listen to what he's saying, don't forget what he's saying, hear what he's saying, you'll never hear this again.

What is he saying? Enjoy this, enjoy this. I have no memory of a single other than, oh, Steven, that's all I remember of the entire thing. What happened to your memory? I don't know. I don't know. That's just it.

I can remember anything. You can tell me like a phone number three years ago and I can tell you, but I could not remember. Because it was so meaningful because you're just a big Mike Nichols fan. Yeah, come on. Yes. Do you ever meet Elaine May? No, I've never met Elaine May, I'd like to though.

I bet she wants to meet you. I don't know about that. I never assume any of that stuff. I'll tell you how bad I am but assuming anybody wants to meet me is that the beginning of the Colbert Report in the first six months, I think, I was on the Time 100

and I'm at the Time 100 dinner at Columbus Circle. Top 100 people ranked in the world according to intelligence. Exactly. Just briefing for listeners. Ranked according to memory. And so I'm there and a woman comes over and says,

I'm here with George Lucas. Yeah. And I saw George across the room, I could see him. And she pointed and I said, oh, hi, nice to meet you. And she said, George would like to meet you. And I said, George who? Of course. Because I could not imagine that that was the George

that I was looking at was the guy who wanted to meet me. And so I went over and said hi to George. Again, don't remember it. Do you not remember it? I remember saying hi, but I don't remember. This is a breaking story, this is breaking news. You don't, you have an extraordinary memory, you blank out, essentially compliments

and people who you admire. So you'll forget this whole interview. Every word, locked away. When I got the late show, the first person to call me was Letterman. Oh. And he called me immediately. And he was a lovely conversation and I took notes

because I knew I wouldn't remember. I knew it was so difficult for me. And I had talked to Dave a bunch and he had always been very gracious to me and we'd always had a good time. I'd been on a show 10 times. And though every time was a big deal for me. Yeah. I always, it was very important to do a good job for him.

Oh my God, are you kidding me? And so, but I was taking like little like kind of like shorthand notes as we were talking, just like subject areas, just like that. And then he was very gracious and very nice. And I hung up the phone and I wrote out everything I could remember of those subjects. And then I gave it to my sister and I said,

would you please type this up and then just put it in a file for me. So I have it, I've never looked at it, but I have it someplace to go look at. Do you ever feel the ghosts of the Ed Sullivan Theater? I mean, the Beatles and you know. No, I mean, it's an honor to be in that space and I love that we've restored it to a theater.

I don't know if you remember what it used to be like. It used to be much more like a TV studio. That's right. But I can understand that because comedy compression is nice to keep the space tight feels good for me, at least for TV comedy. But I really wanted to change the way I did my show. The Colbert report was very much for the camera,

because that's the model that I was aping, was for the camera and the present audience in the room got to see me do the show for the camera. Now I'm doing the show for the room and the camera there captures it. It's a different vibe. And I wanted that to change me as a performer because I didn't really know what I was stepping into.

And so I had to make, that was one strong decision I wanted to make the beginning is that I want to play to the room. And I started off as a live improvisational like sketch comedian. And I love a room. I love a live theater. And so I often drink in the room.

I often like in those, if you're lucky enough to have a real rolling audience in that night, you've got free time between jokes. Oh yeah, sure. You know, and, and I'm not just thinking about what the rhythm is for the next attack, you know, like for the next beat, or especially for changing subjects, I'll, I'll take a moment and literally look around this beautiful theater I'm in,

with these gorgeous digital projections and stained glass built by Hammerstein in 1927 and that beautiful band over there. And my dear friends who I've worked with, some of them for almost 20 years, some of them I've known for like 35 years who were there. And I just, even like literally in between jokes, I go, God, what a lucky guy I am to have this moment.

And that comes to me more, of course, when the show's going great. Sure. And then when the show's not going great, or you haven't been able to hook up your jumper cables to the audiences, which is how I think about it. Beautiful. So there's a flow of current back and forth.

Let's hit that and hover. Jumper cables? Yeah. Want to stay here for a second? That's just a great metaphor. Yeah, I want to hook up the jumper cables. We talk about that with jokes all the time here, is this idea of like, most of the time with jokes,

what you have in your mind is pretty funny, it's just a matter of like what you're saying, hooking up the jumper cables, that sometimes is the hard part. Yes, well there has to be, another way that we talk about it sometimes is that I'm the pitcher and the audience is the catcher, and I've got to do something fairly early on in the monologue to let them know what kind of pitches I'm the pitcher and the audience is the catcher. And I've got to do something fairly early on in the monologue

to let them know what kind of pitches I'm throwing. I've got to let them know, are these all going to be fastballs? Or are we just playing catch? Do you know what I mean? We're done here. We're done. Are you a baseball man? No, I'm just saying, like, that's exactly it. Like, we don't even have to talk about anything else.

That's exactly... you're exactly right. And sometimes, sometimes after the show's over and it felt like I had to fight the urge to muscle the audience. Yes. Which is exactly the wrong thing to do, which is to muscle the audience. Right.

You know, paradoxically somehow, when you want to tighten up and muscle the audience, because you feel like you haven't made that connection, you want to kind of like drag them to the field where you want to dance. You know what I mean? Mixing metaphors, but sure. Exactly, but you, I mean, baseball field.

Yeah, sure. I don't know why I'm dancing. Dancing, yeah. But where you want to play catch, you want to drag them to where you want to play catch, is that oddly you actually have to relax. You actually have to get looser. And that'll allow you to be aware

of what their vibrational state is. And that's what you and I talked about this on this podcast last time, which is it took you years to get to that point. Like you used to be, when you were in Second City Touring Company and stuff like that, you'd be nervous. Oh yeah, and I would try to muscle every moment.

Yeah. And often when the show's over, Tom and I will have a, there's a postmortem for like a lot of the editorial level staff. But it's always just me and Tom Purcell, my exec, for a few minutes after everybody's left. We just sit there and go, what'd you think? Whatever, we'll have that moment.

And if there was that urge to muscle, we'll realize, oh, we didn't tell them the way we were gonna pitch. Oh, we didn't set an emotional tone off the top. And I'm not talking about like, these shows are not confessions. Like authenticity is not confession. It's not the same thing,

but it is important to signal to the audience in some way, where are you coming from? Otherwise you're just reading jokes off a page. And like, might as well go out there, like it's like, I'm not gonna play an instrument, I'm just gonna read sheet music to you. It's not the same thing. Like technically you're doing jokes, but you're not, I'm not, I mean, I used to say what we do for a living

is we harvest laughter. We go, we plant ideas and then we get the laughter from planting that idea, like the setup and the joke, and then you harvest it. And that's why everybody in the building is so important to getting that harvest to market of the show. All the technical aspects of the show are so, they're just as important.

Or else why did we grow all this laughter? And I think that's a little off actually now. I really am there to be with the audience and that it's really there for community. Because the show can be great, even if it isn't, great's a strong word, it can be a really good show, even if it's not pound for pound the funniest show we've done, if I really feel that connection

with the audience. And that's really about community. Like they, and boy, that's such a vague word, community, but I don't have another, I don't have a bet, communion. We are in communion with each other. Right, and therein lies like what, it took me years to understand that as a comedian, that, oh no, it's actually just about connecting

to the people right in front of you. And that's the whole thing. And that's what everything- And you have to add to that, the craft you've put into being able to- No, of course. You have to do the thing well enough that you can make the connection

and that there's a reason even to be communicating but, or something to say. But it is similar to being a pastor, being a teacher, anything where you're connecting a group of people, stand up, hosting a talk show, it's all of the same kind of energy. When the Please Don't Destroy guys from SNL came on this podcast, we were like, let's do something. And then recently we just started doing improv at UCB.

We do one day a month. Would you come improvise or are you done with it? I love it. I mean, I would like to improvise some place where no one knows who I am. I don't want to have anyone's expectations of what I'm gonna do. I just wanna go improvise.

We always say that to the audience members, we come out, short notice, we do like 24 hours notice. It's a hundred and something people in the room. It's a black box. And we just go like, we don like 24 hours notice. It's 100 and something people in the room. It's a black box. And we just go like, we don't do this a lot. We don't improvise a lot. So whatever happens tonight, if you write it on social media, just write,

it was the best improv show we've ever seen. And they do, like it's a running joke. That's great. So who's doing it? It's me and the Please Don't Destroy guys, which is Ben Marshall and John Higgins and Martin Hurley. Well, I've known John Higgins since he was about four. Ha!

We grew up down the thing with our, like we grew up with the Higgins. He told me that you taught him Sunday school. Yeah. That's crazy. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. So that's what the problem is. You gotta come play with us though.

It's, we die laughing. You gotta come play with us though. We die laughing. We are breaking in every scene. I mean, there's nothing better. There's absolutely nothing better. I mean, admittedly, it's been a long time and I think there's an athleticism to it that you can lose your backhand. Yeah, no, I agree, but you have been,

you improvise every day. The guest is improvised and sometimes like things come here and there, but that's more like riffing. That's not the same thing as improvising. As doing object work and seeing work and characters. Right, I mean, the guest is close to improvising cause you're having to listen and, you know, add to and draw out from the other person

and the other person is the most important person on stage and stuff like that. All that's really key and that helps with that. At best, the conversation has nothing to do with the card. It's just what's going on with that person. And the best ones, I never look at it and you can't believe that the time flew the way it did. But I mean, creating scenes, like that's a great thing.

When you walk off stage and you have no idea why it was good as it was, and you don't know whose idea was what, that's the key. When you walk off stage and you have no idea why it was good as it was, and you don't know whose idea was what, that's the key. When you walk off and go like, that was great, whose idea was that? Or people might ask and we'll go, no idea. No, and it's kind of what's beautiful about improv, it's kind of no one's idea.

It's kind of taking from the universe and spitting it out. Well, that's my first person I studied any improv with was Del Close. And a lot of people had a guru relationship to him. Some people, not a lot, but some people did. I never did. I might not have deserved it, but I also don't get guru with people.

You know what I mean? You don't need to take to mentors that way. No, I probably, when I was younger, I was too emotionally distant to actually allow myself to join the cult. Oh. You know what I mean? And also too much of a skeptic

to get involved in the cult. Sure. Even though some part of myself, the part whose father died when he was young was like, do you be my daddy? It was, I'm sure in there, but I never acted on it. That's a weird aside to say, or rather a fitting aside to say he used to say, you're not improvising.

You're just letting the universe channel through you if you just open up all your senses. That's it. Your job is to open up all the stops on the organ. That's it. So that you, so it can just flow through you. And he would take out his little pentagram and put it on his chest before he performed

because he said the stage was a sacred space. And it is. I mean, showstoppers. Stephen Colbert throwing showstop and pitches all day. All right, so this is the slow round. What is, do you have a song that makes you cry? Is there a song that doesn't make me cry? I will like, you know, when I was a kid, you know,

Cat's Cradle, you know, Harry Chapin in an absolute second. Yeah. Cause it just brings up parents, child relationship. Yeah, Dead Dad, you know, the Dead Dad. I remember like it came out in 74, I think, or 75. Yeah. I mean, my dad and my brothers died in 1974. So there's that, but I mean, my kids, they'll go,

they'll turn to everybody like, oh my God, is he crying? Oh. And here's what I find about crying. This is what I find about crying, is that I've given in to the fact that I cry. Okay, yes. Do you know what I mean?

Like I try and like, okay, fine. And it's just like a source like any of the like- For years you tried to pretend you weren't a crying person. Well, no, no, I mean, kind of. Aren't you like taught to not do that? Sure, sure. You're taught, especially as a man,

you're not supposed to cry. Yeah, yeah. And so I was very good at like closing the door and like punching a wall instead. Yeah. And it's not like I closed the door and cried, I closed the door and then also didn't cry. But at least the struggle I would do privately.

But what was great is having kids. And like, if I would be talking about something that would getting me close, like where I have to take a breath and like look into the distance and try to think about like the stitch pattern on that curtain so I could think about something other than crying, you know what I mean?

Like I would place my focus on something else I could think about like the stitch pattern on that curtain so I could think about something other than crying. You know what I mean? Like I would place my focus on something else in order to maintain. Absolutely. But my kids quickly figured out all those games. Oh, interesting. And so, or like what my silence would mean. And so even like when they were pretty young,

they would like crawl, like they would like come around me and go, is he gonna cry? Oh my God. Is he gonna cry? And that would just make me laugh. That is so funny. That would just make me laugh that they would, that they would tag come around me and go, is he gonna cry? Oh my God. Is he gonna cry? And that would just make me laugh. That is so funny. That would just make me laugh that they would, that they would tag me like that.

But I came to a realization not that long ago that the thing I'm crying about is not, it's not cause I'm sad as I'm crying because it tends to be something I'm talking about is so beautiful. Yeah. Despite how sad the world is. And there's that tension between the beautiful thing.

And it really occurred to me when I was in Saint-Rémy-de-Provence a couple of summers ago, we went to the institution where Van Gogh ended his life or he spent the end of his life there. And he painted many beautiful things while he was in Provence, in the center and middle of Provence. And I think one of the things he painted there was Starry Night.

And I come around a corner and they got reproductions of everything that he did there. And I came around the corner and there was Starry Night. And I burst into tears when I saw it. And what the hell is that about? Why are you crying? Cause you looked at Starry Night. Now what I've done is you've taken like a several kilometer

and I'm going to say kilometer cause we're talking about France here. Don't get on me, American. I respect that. A couple of kilometer walk through San Romero Provence to the institution, which was run, I think, by the Sisters of Charity or something. And you're reading along the way these plaques

about what was his life like and what was his brother Theo doing for him and why did he end up here and stuff like that. And the last thing you end up, you go through the gates and this beautiful, I'm sure it was kind of bleak at the time, but a very beautiful place. And I saw Starry Night and I burst into tears

and I went, oh, that's what it is. It suddenly came to his revelations that the thing that actually makes me cry is something beautiful, not something sad. And that's the commonality is when I'm trying to quote a song, for instance. And often when I'm trying to quote a song or quote a poem or something like that,

it'll tap me on the shoulder and punch me in the face. And I didn't expect it. Because I'm caught short by something beautiful. Yeah. And the tension between, you know, the sad and how sad or tragic the world can be and this beautiful thing that exists despite that, or maybe even because of it, that comes out of it,

there's an ecstatic tension between those two points. Yeah. And the energy has to be released some way. And for me, it's crying. Yeah. So yeah, sometimes I cry at songs. So next little round question, what's the best piece of advice someone's given you

that you've used? Check to make sure the plug is in. That's a great one. Cause I like to boat. I like to go out on the water. Yeah. Make sure before you put that boat in, the plug is in. Cause there's a plug to drain often.

If it's not a huge boat, there'll be a plug. You have to take out to drain the boat in case you had water come over the gunnels. And so you got water in your boat. So you pull the plug at the end of the day, especially when you're cleaning it. Or else the boat will fill up with the water that you're cleaning the boat with.

But you have to remember to put that plug back in. And that's a metaphor for a lot. Yes. Is that before you do the... The obvious thing. Yeah, do this, make sure you've done the small, simple... Yeah, the small, simple thing. Obvious thing that is so small and simple that...

Yes. For instance, did you learn your lines for this show that you've been cast in? I literally have shown up things and went, oh fuck, I didn't learn my lines. I was very excited about doing the part. I have an idea for the character. But I went, oh right, I've been working in front of prompter for 20 years. I have to learn my lines, which is so basic.

Well, that's what is inside the actor studio with Al Pacino once. What's your best advice for young actors? Know your lines. Yes, they're used backstage at Second City. There used to be all this, you know, things that people said that somebody thought was worth remembering.

That was all that was written on the back wall of Second City. Unfortunately they got, they renovated and somebody accidentally painted over a lot of it because it was like, you know, it was 50 years of advice from some of the best comedians, you know? And, but one of the things that I remember,

which I don't know if it's still there, if it got painted over, but it said, the shortest distance between two points is learn your lungs. Ah, that's good. I like that. What is the thing people, what's your people's favorite and least favorite thing about you?

People that I know or people that I don't know. People that I know? Yeah. Oh, I think I'm an okay listener. I think I'll sit and I want to hear how you are. And I mean it for the most part. I mean, I don't mean I don't ever mean it, but I try to take the time to actually know how you are and I mean it for the most part. I mean, I don't mean I don't ever mean it, but I try to take the time to actually know how you are,

I suppose, and it's cool if we cry together. I'm fine with that. Sweet. I think the people least like about me, I would say that probably people who watch the show or watch the work that I do probably think I'm a little big for my pants making jokes about subjects that they would probably,

why don't you shut up and make jokes? Like, I think that might be that. Like a little, like, you know, aren't you a little self-important to make jokes about democracy or whatever, whatever. And that's a valid response. I got nothing to say about that. I mean, I'm not, I'm not,

I don't have some special insight to any of this stuff. It's just, that's the conversation that's going on right now. Like that has been the conversation for a decade now. And we are a shadow of the news. And so that's what people are talking about all day. That's the raw material for the jokes at the end of the day

because we're talking about the national conversation. I'd like to not talk about that stuff. So I don't have a problem with it. And if people don't like that, I don't like that. I don't like that they don't like that. But it's not kind of my job. It's not my problem because I'm doing my job. It's such an interesting- But I can understand why they wouldn't.

I don't have a problem with people disliking that. That's totally a valid response. Oh, I follow that. I always marvel at this bygone era that people talk about of like Johnny Carson hosting the Tonight Show in the 80s when I was growing up and not mentioning politics because it feels like as a comedian,

you have to talk about what's happening to acknowledge the humor. Well, I'll say this, I think the politics has become a larger part of sort of our daily conversation than when I was younger. I mean, in the 1960s, it was certainly a big deal, but I don't know, seven in the eighties, as much as there was going on with like Iran-Contra

or the hostage crisis or anything like that. I mean, Johnny made jokes about the Iran-Contra or the hostage crisis or anything like that. I mean, Johnny made jokes about the Iran-Contra, Johnny made jokes about the hostage crisis. It just wasn't a big part of the national conversation. There were times we didn't think about politics. And that changed, I think, I don't really know. I would say probably around 9-11. I think 9-11 might've changed what the national focus is

because it became more important. It became more, there were more stakes, it seemed like. And so it became a bigger part of the conversation. And also 24-hour news made it, and 24 hours a day, you could put your mouth around that carbon monoxide hose of the news cycle and just suck the fumes because they had to, because the cable news has to burn the tires of the news

24 hours a day to keep the lights on. There's not, and so much of it is just opinion and opinion really ends up being a panel show and the panel show ends up being about fighting and that conflict ends up being the thing that they're selling. And so the nation becomes increasingly divided and so it becomes a bigger part

of the conversational playing field. Yeah. So. Do you have a favorite joke joke? What do you mean, like guy walks into a bar joke? Yeah, yeah, anything like that. Do you know my favorite knock knock joke? No.

Say knock knock. Knock knock. Who's there? Who's there who? No, it's just, it pimps the other guy. Wait, wait, what is it? Wait, can we do it again? Sure. You want to hear my favorite knock knock joke?

Yes. Say knock knock. Knock knock. Who's there? It's just forced me to just come up with a knock knock joke. That's what I like about it. It just forced me to just come up with an off-topic. That's what I like about it. Can you remember an inauthentic version of yourself?

A million of them. Sure, sure. The nervous me is the most inauthentic version of me. Oh, interesting. Oh yeah, because the nervous, or rather when I'm nervous, not that I'm nervous, nervous is authentic, but when I'm nervous, or rather when I'm nervous, not that I'm nervous, nervous is authentic, but when I'm nervous, I can sometimes construct a face for the faces that we meet.

Like, you know, I try to come up with something that I think might be appealing to the person I'm talking to. Yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen to me as much anymore. When I was younger, I'm gonna get starstruck. Sure. Yeah, I don't starstrike that much anymore.

Well, who are you most starstruck of from? I feel like it must've been in your 20s, it must've been shocking because you were on The Daily Show, right? Or your early 30s? You're so sweet to think that I was on The Daily Show in my 20s. In your 30s? I love you, Mike.

Particularly. Yeah. Jim Martin from American Magazine and of course from the Dacastery for Culture and Education at the Vatican. Oh, yes, of course. He said, hey, for Culture and Education at the Vatican, he said, Hey, do you want to meet the Pope because the Pope wants to meet some comedians? Would you help me put together a list? And I was like, yeah, sure.

But it really felt like we were going to hang with the Pope. And then when Gaffigan called me and conveyed it to me, it was very similar. It's like, no, he wants to speak with us. I'm like, you sure? He's like, I think so, I don't know. And it really sounded like 10 of us. Yeah, it did sound like 10 of us.

Cause it said, he wants, could you help me? I need a list of 10 comedians to recommend. Oh my gosh. And so it sounded like there were gonna be 10 of us. And I imagine it would be short. I imagine it would be some little sort of little room in the apostolic apartments or some of the papal apartments. And we would sit there and maybe we'd have a cup of tea. He would ask us a few polite questions. We would talk a little room in the apostolic apartments or some of the papal apartments. And we would sit there and maybe we'd have a cup of tea.

He would ask us a few polite questions. We would talk a little bit about comedy and there'd be a photograph. This is what the Pope said to us. He said, I'm reminded, do you remember this? I'm reminded of the story in the book of Genesis when God promised Abraham that within a year he would have a son.

He and his wife, Sarah, were old and childless. I've been reading this on stage lately to see if there's jokes. And I look at the audience, I go, she was 23. And then Sarah said, God has made laughter for me. Everyone who hears this will laugh over me. That is why they named their son Isaac, which means he laughs.

And then I wrote, at this point, I thought it's possible the Pope just opened a PDF of the Bible and did a command F on the word laugh. This wasn't adding up for me. And he said this thing where he goes, according to the Bible, at the beginning of the world, while everything was being created,

divine wisdom practiced your form of art for the benefit of none other than God Himself, the first spectator of history. Divine wisdom practiced your art for none other than God himself, the first spectator of history. Divine wisdom practiced your art for none other than God himself. So divine wisdom being something that is of course of God, but separate from him in that moment and entertaining God. Apparently.

Wow. I mean, that's where the whole religious thing lose me in the religious thing. But it's weird like- I've heard a lot about this religious thing. About my Catholicism believes me is that the spectator of history concept, the God being the spectator-

God is the spectator of history, yes. Right, so it's like, I have this joke that I sometimes tell where I go, that's the thing that freaks me out from Catholic school that's always stuck with me is when you're a kid, they go, God, where I went to Catholic school, they say, God is watching you at all times.

And so I just thought he was, I didn't think of him as an entity, I thought of him as just a person just tailing me in a Chevy Malibu, like what's Mike Brighley up to? Oh, he's hiding porn in the forest. I'm gonna make sure he doesn't have a girlfriend until he's 20.

And that prophecy came true. So maybe there is a guy. 20's not bad. Yeah, exactly. But then it stuck with me. When I was 15, I started masturbating. I thought he was watching me do that too. So I would sort of cheat to the camera.

Go on. I would cheat to the camera. Go on. And I would cheat to the camera like, Go on, Mike. Cause I wanted to think, if he was watching the monitor, he would go, I've seen a lot of 15 year olds masturbate, but this kid's good.

I think he might go pro. It's a gift. It's a gift. But anyway, so that's sort of, my question is, of the Pope's, what he said, what struck you as funny or worth talking about comedically? I mean, being able to make, like laughing at God, that's kind of fun.

I like that. Not like making jokes about God. He said, is it okay to laugh at God? Laugh at God. Laugh at God. Yeah. Wow, not laugh with God. I thought that was really, I thought that was really meaningful.

That distinction, I'm not sure means the same thing in Italiano, but that was interesting to me. I will say about Pope Francis, and if people are interested in this even remotely, there is a Wim Wenders documentary about Pope Francis that I think is beautifully directed and really gave me a sense of like that this guy is, as far as I understand it, really doing the work,

going to war torn countries and spending time with children and hospitals. I've been struck with that for his entire papacy, which started right when I was starting the Late Show. He's been willing to do things that the Curia doesn't like, that he's been able to buck not religious traditions, but papal traditions, which are not the same thing,

or Vatican traditions, or the sort of, the things that grow on the Catholic Church over centuries. I've always thought of the Catholic Church as being like an oyster bank. And I grew up in the coast of South Carolina where you could just go out at the right time of year, you can go out with your boat and you can just chop the oysters right off the bank.

And they're clusters, they're not singles like you might get at a nice restaurant or something like that. It's a cluster of oysters. And they've grown on top of each other over the years because those little oyster polyps are looking for any place to land that might be hard and another oyster shell is a great place to land.

And so when you bring them back and you steam them and you hose them off and you hose them off then you steam them and you put them on a table and you take a knife and a glove so you don't cut your hand and you work your way through that cluster of oysters. And some of them are filled with mud and you knock those off. And some of them might have like a crab living inside of them. And some of them have got this beautiful oyster meat in it.

And I think of the Catholic church as this bank of theology and tradition, you know, the ongoing revelations, the church calls it, that is all grown on top of each other. And I think if you can respectfully and curiously and in pursuit of your faith, work your way through that, I don't think you always have to eat the mud. I think you can hold out for the oyster. And there are things in the church that I don't want to eat,

but I don't think that means you're rejecting the faith itself. The last thing we do is working out for a cause where we donate to an organization that you think does a good job, and then we link in the show notes and encourage others to contribute. I'm such an enormous fan of what Jose Andres and World Central Kitchen is doing.

Both in Ukraine and in Gaza right now that I really wish to support them. Also Radio Lollipop is an amazing organization. I know you're not asking me for more than one, but Radio Lollipop is for kids often in terminal wards or cancer wards. And it basically is entertainment for those kids who have to spend so much time,

especially when they're long-term cancer care or something like that in the hospital. And I'm a huge fan of Radio Lollipop. Well, we'll contribute to both of those and we will link in the show notes. Steven, it is such an honor to speak with you and to have you at the studio. It's so fun.

It just gives me so much joy to talk to you every time we get a chance to do it. And we don't have to do it with a recording device next time. No, no. We could just be with each other. Yeah, let's just do a full hang. Do a family hang. Oh, a fam hang.

Yeah, family hang. That sounds good. I did see you at the US Open. That's true. We kind of hung with the fancy people. Yeah, we could go to the Knicks game. Hmm. No?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! Oh my God! Working it out, cause it's not done. We're working it out, cause there's no one. That's gonna do it for another episode of Working It Out. That is one of my absolute favorite episodes. You can follow Stephen Colbert on Instagram, at Stephen at home. Stephen with a P-H.

You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel, at Mike Birbiglia. And you can subscribe while you're on there. Check out birbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia, and Mabel Lewis.

Associate producer, Gary Simons. Sound mix by Ben Cruz, Supervising Engineer Kate Bielinski. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and our daughter Una, who built the original radio for MetaPillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. That really helps us out, helps people find the show. And if you like one of the shows, you know, we have about 150

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Let's say you're in an Uber with your significant other and they wanna start planning the rest of the day or the week and that person's not your enemy, but maybe there's a little friction. I say, you don't argue, You just say, I love you. I want to plan. I want to plan with you. But first, let's share these earbuds and listen to Stephen Colbert on Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out podcast, because nothing gets me in the planning mood more than two creatives working things out. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time.