Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 38. Conan O'Brien: It's His Birthday, Celebrate Him

Episode Date: April 18, 2021

Mike welcomes his comedy idol and former boss Conan O’Brien whose hit podcast “Conan O’Brien Needs a Friend” prompted Mike to demand that they actually be friends and that Conan come on Mike��s podcast. What results is a magical discussion of Conan’s early political aspirations, why the class clown never becomes a professional clown, and the contagiousness of the Irish accent. https://www.corunummealcenter.org/

We'll see. I'll put up the old headphones and we'll figure out what's going on. You told them I only have about 10 minutes. Is that right? As long as they know. So all we have to do is unmute you and then... Just so they know, I have like 15 minutes tops.

And then I gotta go. Okay? I'm buying a Kia and I need to get the fuck out of here. I can't be doing this stuff. Conan, I can hear you. Those Kias. What's that? I can hear you.

Let me unmute myself now. Hey, everybody. We are back with a new episode of Working It Out. This is an all-timer. This may be the most excited I have ever been to release an episode of this show. If you've been following along,

we've had amazing people. We've had Fred Armisen and Aubrey Plaza and Bowen Yang and Hannah Gadsby and Roy Wood Jr. and John Mulaney. And you can, you know,

we've had great, great people. And Conan O'Brien is no exception. He's someone I've looked up to for a long time. I want to plug one quick thing before we start, which is I'm doing my first outdoor shows of 2021, May 7th in Fairfield, Connecticut. May 7th in Fairfield, Connecticut. And then we're about to announce some in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and in New Jersey in later May. All of that on Burbix.com or sign up for my mailing list. And then you can get tickets now for my show at the Cape Cod Melody Tent in August.

That's the first place I ever saw a live comedy show. When I was in high school, I saw Stephen Wright live. And so I'm honored to be going back there. In terms of the rescheduled shows from 2020, those are all moving to the fall of this year, 2021. My God. Yes, so those are all on groupings.com as well. Those are all rescheduled.

Tickets will be honored. I'm excited to get out there and share with you all of this material we've been working out on the podcast. But today is the perfect person to work material out with. Conan O'Brien is, man, he's a legend not only as a talk show host, but as a writer. He wrote for The Simpsons and Saturday Night Live and, you know, in his own talk shows and just, you know, some of the best comedy shows of all time. And and I was an intern on his show in, you know, 20s, 22, 23 years ago. And I just, I think the world of him. I went on his podcast, Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend, which I love.

I highly recommend. I put his feet to the fire. I asked him to come on this podcast. He said yes. And here we are. I hope you enjoy my conversation with the great conan o'brien i will i didn't think of this until just now when i was an intern on your show you used to do that bit where you did children's drawings yes where kids would come to the studio and they would

draw things and you and you had the interns and i was one of the interns do the children's drawings yes yes that was the that was the the lowest of the low and and uh i got one on and that was the first thing i ever got on television that's great and it was actually what we're talking about which is it was uh it was the editing studio it was like this is the editing studio and then it was someone like a man shouting like add more laughs laffs yeah that was a fun bit that was a fun we asked That was a fun, we asked, you know, it was children's day. Everyone could bring their kid in to the office and they drew some wonderful pictures as an assignment. These are third grade kids.

Let's see what they drew. And then you could just see a child's view of just absolute horror. And the joke was always, I'm a maniac. Completely full of, you know, people are being beaten. Andy's in S&M where, you know, all that kind of stuff. But it's just through the eyes of a child, which is just what you want to see. One of my favorite things about this show, I'm sort of a completist.

I watched like so much of that era was the in the year 2000 bit where, you know you'd say in the year 2000 blah blah blah will happen and that was the setup but it was i loved that it was never acknowledged that to that the year 2000 was like two or three years away yes you know it's we started doing that bit in chicago uh i did it with ro Robert Smigel and Bob Odenkirk and a couple of other performers in Chicago at the Victory Gardens Theater. And we did it in 1988. And so the year 2000 was like,

you know, we all grew up in the 60s. And so in the year 2000, it felt like there'll be flying cars. It was this catchphrase. So then I get the show in 93 and the year 2000, seven years away, get the show in 93 and the year 2000, seven years away, but we still call it

in the year 2000. And then it was just, it was a joke bucket and we're holding flashlights under our faces. And then we started closing. Then it was like 1999. And then I think

when it hit 2000, we just kept saying for a while in the year 2000 because we didn't know what to do. We just didn't know what to do. We never knew we'd be on the air that long. So, you know, who knew? My favorite thing about it

is that also you never, there's such a straight-facedness to the bit that you never acknowledge that it was a year away or six months away. Yes, no. In the year 2000, and it's like, wait, it's March 3rd, 19. In the year 2000, man will live with beast

and beast shall conquer. You know, one of my favorites was in the year 2000, apes shall ride horseback and horses will ride ape back. Who are we making? Who are we delighting with that joke other than some other comedians but it made me happy i was listening to your podcast last night the your podcast by the way is my favorite comedy podcast it's one of these do you ever have this with stuff where you do comedy professionally for, you know. Right. And so you become immune to laughter at a certain point with, let's say, a certain type of comedy. And then at a certain point, you're like, oh, my gosh, I found laughter again.

And that's how I feel about your podcast. Well, that's, first of all, coming from you, that's a very huge compliment. And I thank you. There is something that I really enjoy about, as you know, there's something about this podcast world, which I'm really relatively new to, and it's just a lot of fun, is that when you're doing it, it's very private

and it really does, for years I had people saying, we really wanna get the Conan in the writing room out to people, but how do you do that? And I feel like this is the closest approximation. If I go on a rant or I go down a wormhole, it's the closest approximation of what it's like to be in a writing room with me and how my mind works.

And also the interplay with people is so much fun. I mean, when you did, I'm doing this, my part of the podcast from my house right now, as you know, because we all have to do that during these times. And I'm talking to you over the wireless, but what's really funny is I was headed upstairs and there's this woman who works for us and I said, I'm up to do a podcast. And she said,

oh, who are you doing it with? And I said, it's Mike Birbiglia. And she was like, oh my God, I was listening to you and him. This is when you were on my podcast. And she said, and him, this is when you were on my podcast. And she said, she was just howling while she was hiking on this trail. And that people, she said, people were looking at her funny because she had her headphones in and she was cackling. And there's just this nice little, there's something sweet and kind of secret about it all,

even though it's being put out to a lot of people, there's something that isn't ruined. And when you put a studio audience and big TV cameras on things, it's exciting and it's fun and it can be really funny, but there's also something that you might lose that is preserved in this weird format. The thing about your podcast is it's sort of the writer's room version of yourself. And that was always the legend in the comedy circles about you. Even when I was coming up in the early 2000s was like Conan O'Brien

people would say this emphatically has always been funniest guy at SNL in the writers room funniest guy at the Simpsons could just go and go and go and go and and it's interesting because the podcast I do feel like

allows for the complexity of your personality as opposed to like the two-dimensional like here's the here's what the Conan O'Brien character is and it's more like who you are well uh again that's nice of you to say I I one of the things I people forget when you're a host is think about it you're a host so I don't uh I don't go on other shows a lot as a guest, but occasionally, you know, Stephen Colbert has had me on and I'll go on.

And it's really liberating because I'm not, I don't have to make the trains run, you know? I can, and so I've really enjoyed the, I think the two times I've gone on his show, And so I've really enjoyed the, I think the two times I've gone on his show, I've just completely let it fly because when you're the host, if you think about it,

your job really is to take care of somebody. So yes, when you're the host, you can be funny doing the comedy and all that, but you're constantly looking at what's the next thing? I got to bring that out. I got to present this. And you figure out a way to do it in your persona and in a way that hopefully is funny.

But a lot of times guests are people who, they're actors, you know, they're people that this is not their main skill is being in front of a crowd. They're terrific. They look great on a big screen. And so my job in that or any host job is to take care of them

and make them look as funny and relaxed as possible. So then it's hard to, I always think that that is a job that I always take very seriously and I want people to look good and I want to take care of people and I'm empathetic about that. But at the same time,

when I'm on the podcast, I just, I don't know. I feel like I don't have to take care of anybody. I don't have to take care of anybody. And I have my assistants with me, Sona, who I've been with forever. Sona and Matt are hilarious. Matt Gourley, and they're both funny in different ways.

And it's, I think it must be Sona will just say, you're a dick or you're stupid, you're an idiot. And Matt Gourley will constantly point out ways in which I'm wrong and I'll lash out at them and claim that I'm a genius and they'll laugh at me. And, you know, I think that whole dynamic is just really enjoyable. So it's really fun to do.

And as you know, Mike, like the times that we've been able to like hang out together and there's been one or two occasions where there's just a bunch of funny people around and we're not being funny because that's what we're supposed to do. We're being funny because that's what we did in grade school because we weren't good at other stuff.

And it's what we do. It's just what we do. It's like the way cowboys spit tobacco. Like this is what we do. We just act silly around each other. And it's kind of a joyous, weird verbal orgy. It's really fun. And people always say to me, oh, it must be rough if you're hanging out with these other comedians. Is everyone trying to be the funniest? And I think, I'm not aware of like, uh-oh,

Mike just said something really funny. I've got to try and think of a tapa that'll knock Mike out of the top spot. You had Bill Hader on your podcast, and it's such a good episode. And one of the things you pointed out is that in making a talk show in the 90s and 2000s, you're competing against all the other talk shows, and now you're competing against, like, the world.

Yes. You're competing against anyone with a phone who's videoing their aunt, who spits milk out of their nose and it lands on a piano and the piano collapses, you know, whatever. Yes, right. And it's such a good point.

I ran into, didn't run into, I interviewed him, but then we were talking after the show because he did it in person, Joel McHale of all people. And Joel McHale after the show was like, oh, you got to see this thing on YouTube. It's fantastic. And so if you've been in comedy,

as long as I've been in comedy, you spent so much of your time trying to think of images that will really make people laugh, that they won't forget, that are going to be great. Yeah. He showed me an image that's from't forget that are gonna be great. Yeah. He showed me an image that's from, I think it's from someplace in Canada,

but it's of a guy, a family that kept a whole bunch of illegal fireworks in their house. And so the house you see is smoldering, it catches fire and someone had an iPhone and then it explodes and fireworks come shooting out. No, no. And you know what? It is the most amazing.

It looks better than anything I've seen in a major movie. It's better than Scorsese. It's better than all. Oh, it's better than anything you've ever seen. It's fantastic. And I don't know. Some people might've been hurt. It might be bad, but the image itself is just,

it's just absolutely like, that's what everyone's competing against. Everyone, that's going to get, that's what everyone's going to look at. And then exactly what you said, there's, we're in a country, well, we're in a country of what, 340 million people and everyone's got a device on them and they're all shooting video.

Conan looked at his notes for that number, just so everyone knows. I always have a little post-it with the current population of the United States and it's on my wrist and I update it every half hour. So anyway, to continue, we live in a country of 340 million and nine people in this country. 340 million and nine people

in this country. And everyone's got, think about it. Everyone's got a video camera going pretty much all the time. Yeah. And so what happens is one in a billion chance happenings will occur constantly and people will be getting them and putting them up on, you know up on the internet and so what happens is you'll see uh a squirrel you know boxing a dog and then the dog will jump

into an airplane and take off and the squirrel will jump into a car and chase him and it's just because it happened and it's crazy and i I'm sitting there with my writers saying, what can we do today? The law of averages is against us in this overwhelming way. And so it really is, it really has become, it makes me think, wow, Jesus, the 90s, we were just shooting fish in a barrel. It was me and like three other or two other shows.

And that was it. And we were carved out our own thing to do. And it was different than what other people were doing. And we could just go crazy. And so that's, it really is a different time now. There's this amazing, do you ever see Hearts of Darkness about the making of Apocalypse Now?

There's that moment where, and people haven't seen this documentary, it's a knockout. It's almost like as good as the of Apocalypse Now. There's that moment where, and if people haven't seen this documentary, it's a knockout. It's almost like as good as the movie Apocalypse Now. Yes, yes, it is, really, actually. And there's this moment where he, where Coppola explains that technology is gonna move in such a way,

and he was right. This was made in the 70s, that the movie of the future that we're going to love is going to be filmed by a 12-year-old kid in Ohio who just happens to have a camera kind of thing. Yeah. And he's not wrong. No. No, he's, you know, one of the things that,

first of all, an image that I take away from was it Hurts of Darkness is that there's a great moment where they're showing outtakes from Apocalypse Now. And it's the iconic scene where Marlon Brando has got the shaved head and he's Kurtz and he's in the cave and he's, I don't do a Marlon Brando, but he's in the cave and he's doing this long monologue

and Coppola told him to improvise and it's getting very highfalutin, you know, Brando's being very self-indulgent and he's lit in a very dark, mysterious way and he goes, you know, these, these people, they come and they, what am I supposed to do? And he's giving this speech and all of a sudden he goes,

and I find myself in a moment of, and he goes, swallowed a bug. And then they show it again and you can see him talking and giving this speech where he's like, I find myself caught in a vortex of man's inhumanity to man. And then you see this little fly go in his mouth. And then he coughs and then just says, swallowed a bug.

And I'm like, okay, that's fantastic. And then cut. And then, you know, the real ends. And I was like, okay, that's better than any moment in Apocalypse Now. And that is reality TV gold just, you know, 35 years before there's reality television. that's what your show was in the 90s when you you broke up what people expected late night to be you broke up what people expected late night to be.

And so like, what kind of confidence does that take from you? It's like, you were young, you were like 32. I was 30 when we started. You were 30? Yeah, I had just turned 30. I got the gig, I think two weeks after my 30th birthday, which took the sting out of turning 30. Cause you know, you at 30, you're like, what have I done yet?

And I got the show. And I remember mostly. It's so sad about your voice not changing. I know. By the age of 30. It will eventually. They say it happens at 70, but I... By the way, this is gonna air on your birthday, April 18th.

Oh, okay. Well, there you go. So we'll all celebrate on social media. It's my birthday today. Celebrate me. To answer your question, I think the thing that saved me is the volume that we had to do.

We had to do so many shows. Oh, that's interesting. I had no preparation. And I sometimes think that it really was being thrown into a pond with cement shoes and sinking to the bottom. And then it was the struggle to get to the surface and also the sheer volume of,

we were very ambitious about how much comedy we wanted to do. I didn't wanna come out and just do a little bit of comedy and then talk to the celebrities. I really wanted it to be an episode of SCTV every night. And Robert Smigel did as well. We were both very ambitious about wanting people to get more

cereal in the box than anyone had ever gotten before. And there was a lot of, so we made tons of mistakes. There was plenty of stuff that wasn't good, but we just kept trying things and we would try weird ideas that were so left brain that I think, oh, I look at them now and I think, what the fuck? What were we? I was always on the verge of getting canceled for like three or four years. And we'd do a sketch where I found a wallet

and I'm holding the wallet and I'm like, well, I found this wallet. Should I return it? But it's got a lot of money in it and I could sure use that money. What do I do? What do I do? And an angel would appear on one shoulder

and say, return the wallet, Conan, return the wallet. And I'd go, hmm, I wonder if there's a different point of view. And on the other shoulder, a bear would show up. And he'd go, hello. And I'd be like, wait, who are you? And he goes, I'm your bear. And I'd go like, well, what's your? And he goes, I'm your bear. And I'd go like, well, what's

your advice? And he says, and his advice would be, when you are mauling someone, use your front paws. Only use your back paws after your prey has been disabled. And I'd go, yeah, but what about the wallet? And he'd go like, I

don't know about wallets. And then he kept giving bear advice and then the the angel would get really frustrated and leave and so i realized like if i had pitched that to the network or needed to get approval they'd say well yeah you should be you should be talking about clinton and the monica lewinsky scandal yeah sure sure you know you should be doing look what leno's doing he's doing this stuff that's right out of the news and people can understand it. And I thought, no.

That's hilarious. Yeah. I think I've said this to several comedians of your generation, which is that there was this whole period where we didn't know, I didn't get out of the studio. I didn't go places. Yeah. I didn't know that people were liking it this much.

NBC was always really kind of cranky with me. And I was just the guy that was on it. That's what you talked about with Bill Hader. It's like, you didn't know you were influencing this whole generation of people like me and Bill and Mulaney and all these people. Yeah, and now I'm thinking, I wish that, it's so, so funny,

because I wish that you guys could have communicated with me then. Because it's really sweet to hear now, but I was so anxious. And you and I have talked about this, like I had so much anxiety and so many bouts of like real depression and this has failed and no one cares.

And it went on for years. And then later on, people were like, you got me through law school, you got me through college. And I think, well, couldn't you have expressed that to me? It's so funny because I asked Bill Hader last night if he had a question for you because you're friends.

And I love when you guys talk. It's so funny. And on your podcast. And your show in the 90s was like touch and go the first few years where they kept threatening to pull it off and yeah yeah yeah and it was week to week and so bill bill's question was uh uh when did he this is medium bill yeah when did he uh when did he realize he he wasn't gonna get fired from late night? That's a good question.

I honestly don't think. We went on in September of 93, and I didn't feel safe until 96. Unbelievable. Three years? Three years? There was three years of me being told every, you know, like, you'd get a rating every night, but then you'd get the real rating on,

I think it was Thursdays. And I would come in and I would be just, you know, just acid in my stomach and walk in and, you know, feeling like I was walking up a gout to a gallows to be killed. And then my producer would either give me a thumbs up or a thumbs down, and I would live or die by that. If I got the thumbs up and we did well in the overnights, I mean, in the national rating, I was elated.

Yeah. And if we didn't do well, I was crushed. And it was only much later that I realized that the metric by which they figure this out, especially if you're doing it at 1235 at night and you're using the Nielsen system, if one of your Nielsen people with a box, literally we're talking about like, there's 80 people with Nielsen people with a box, you know, literally we're talking about like,

there's 80 people with Nielsen boxes that determine the ratings for a 1235 show. If one of them has a head cold and takes NyQuil and goes to bed early, then you have a bad number. If for some reason that person, if two of them drink coffee at dinner and can't sleep and watch you,

you had a great number. Yeah. And the network used to always act like, oh, people really hated your show last week because the number was down. And then you'd have a high number. And I eventually realized there's no correlation here between what happened on the show

and what the number is. And I think that's something that is akin to, they say people that check the stock market every day are very unhappy people because they're constantly being fed a number which is often arbitrary and they're not stepping back. What you really have to do is turn off your cell phone, put it away and check that stock occasionally,

but probably better decide, am I in? Is this something I'm passionate about? Or am I out? And check every now and then. But when you check something like that every day, it's like people that weigh themselves every day are like, oh my God, I'm up three ounces. I want to die.

And you're like, what are you, this is awful. That's what's so insane about when you took over for Leno and all that stuff where they judged you based on your ratings for like a month. Well, what happened was, which was interesting, is they pitched it. I mean, I've been over it a million times, but what they were really interested in

was a younger audience. So that they were really interested in was the demo. Right. And so that's all I thought about was do a show and we'll get a younger audience. And we did, we had a very great demo and a lot of young people watching. And then of course, all the diehard people

who tend to be older, who were watching Jay, were less enthused, but all the advertising and everything was sold on the basis of the- Younger people, the demo. And so we were getting this number that was really great. And then we were being told, yeah, but you're not getting as many of those other people. And I remembered saying, correct me if I'm wrong, you gave me a job to do and I'm doing that job. And also we're following a late night show that's on at 10 now from 10 to 11 instead of ER or whatever.

So how can you even tell how we're doing yet? And so fortunately I was able to get some distance on that and go back to what is the goal here? The goal here for me anyway, has always been when I feel like down or I'm losing my way or what's the point is, I wanna make stuff. I wanna make stuff with funny people, funny men and women that I really like.

I wanna make stuff that I'm proud of. I wanna make as much of it as I can while I'm alive. Yeah. And I hope it makes people happy. And that's the idea. And if you really get into this, if you get into this other world of these different metrics and,

well, what are you doing now? Are you on the hot list of these different metrics and, well, what are you doing now? Well, you know, are you on the hot list of these shows? I think misery that way lies, because if you can, I always think of like people like Neil Young, who just, you know, in every decade have made stuff I really liked. And they're admired by really young people and they're admired by really young people and they're admired by people in every generation.

And so I've always thought that's the way to go is try and what did you make today? Did you make anything today that you're proud of? Did you really enjoy yourself in the writer's room? Did you guys put something out there that may not be trending, but you think it has actually a little bit of comedic protein in it?

Like there's something there and it's not just attitude or too easy. That's what I just keep going back to over and over and over again and i think that's the way forward for all of us that's the takeaway also from i think the bill hater conversation that you had which is like you're like i wish i knew that i was influencing a generation of comedians and it's like well you i think you can never know and all you can do is make the thing yeah make the thing and i remember the moment when i realized the first moment we really got

out of the studio was we went up to do a week of shows in canada they had had the uh i think it was the sars outbreak and they wanted can, Canadian government wanted to prove that Canada was safe again. And they invited us to do our show there for a week. And we went up there and, you know, keep in mind at this point, it's been nine years or eight years of being in Rockefeller Center. And we went up there and it was just mania.

I mean, people were, they knew every bit, they knew everything. And, you know, they would escort me to a van after this. We did these live shows in a big theater and then they would escort me to a van and people would be like rocking the van. And I'd never, and I'm never calling, you know, like Lorne Michaels. And I was like, it's crazy up here. He'm never calling, you know, like, Lorne Michaels

and I was like, it's crazy up here and he's always very, you know, well, I watched it tonight and it looks like it went well

and I'm like, no, no, Lorne, Lorne, I mean, they're acting like we're, like, I'm a rock star

and like, Andy and I are like the Beatles, it's crazy and he was always like, well, you know, people are happy

when you come to their town, I wouldn't overthink it, you know, and I was like, no, come know, people are happy when you come to their town. I wouldn't overthink it, you know? And I was like, no, come on, Lord. Oh, my gosh. We do a thing in the show called the slow round, and it's all based on, like, memories and things you remember from growing up. Do you remember a smell from your childhood that sticks with you? Wow, a smell from my childhood, yes.

that sticks with you? Wow, a smell from my childhood, yes. My mother, she denies this now, but one of the early smells in my house, and I think this was something that was made in my mother's house when she was growing up in Worcester, Massachusetts. Yeah, that's where I grew up. Yeah, there's a misunderstanding out there

that I don't like Worcester. That's right. I made a comment about Worcester once on Colbert, and actually I do love Worcester, and I have a soft spot for Worcester, and a lot of people I love come from Worcester. So I have no issue with Worcester, Worcester. But it must be something that they did there. But my mom would fry apples in a pan.

And I think she might've put some like molasses in the pan. I mean, this sounds like it was 1820 and we had no shoes and my mother found an apple and fried it in a pan by the side of the road. But there's a particular smell of these frying apples with molasses that made me, I felt queasy. And I remembered saying to my mother,

I don't want to eat this. And she said, you know, well, you're going to eat it. And me saying, it's making me sick. And she said, it is not making you, it's not making you sick. And just then on cue, I threw up. And so that memory, I think I ran halfway out of the kitchen and threw up.

And so I didn't have to eat the candy apple, but I mean the candy, the fried, molasses fried apple. But that smell is one of, that might be the first neuron that really fired for me. And it's usually an aversion neuron. You know what I mean? It's not, it's of course me being me,

it's not something pleasant. Like I remember the smell of my father's aftershave as he hugged me. No, it's the fucking fried apple with molasses. My mother was like, you'll like this because we ate it in the 30s because we had to and now you're going to eat it. But mom, Nixon's president, why would we eat it now?

He's going to save the country. Yeah. Do you have a childhood memory of like a time in your life where you were not an authentic version of yourself where you really yeah well uh it recurs you act like it's just in the past um i think you know we keep uh rediscovering yeah i went through a phase when I was a kid where I knew I was ambitious and I didn't even know for what, but I was ambitious.

I come from a big family and I'm the middle kid. I don't feel seen. I'm sure a lot of kids don't feel seen, but my parents are busy. We live in this sort of kooky, it's a wonderful life house, you know, that is this a good house or is it kind of falling apart and uh you know um my dad's always off at his lab like late at night and you're wondering like i don't know do we have any money or do we are we it's

kind of a nice street but it was everything was confusing i didn't know what we were. And so it was a strange time. And I remember deciding at some point, I'm really gonna, I know, I'm the guy that gonna know all about politics. I'll be a political guy. And I started reading the paper and I got an internship. guy. And I started, you know, reading the paper and I got an internship. This was, I was a little older then,

but I got an internship or helped out in the congressional office of Congressman Drinan. And I remember thinking, yeah, yeah, politics. Yeah, the third ward, the fourth ward.

We got to get the votes out. I'll go talk to those guys over there. I'll find out what they're voting for. Yeah, yeah. Let's get the, you know, proposition 35.3. This is the 30s. Yeah, this is the 30s.

Let's get FDR elected. And I was kind of spouting all this stuff and saying things, and I'll never forget, my brother Luke was like, it was a quiet moment. He went, I'm not buying this whole political thing. Because my parents were walking around and my parents were so distracted that they were like, yes, and Conan's a young politician.

Oh my gosh. He's a, you know, because like Neil does this and Luke does that and Kate does this and Jane does that and Justin does this and Conan, why, politics is his game. He's going all the way to the White House. And Luke just kind of quietly said, kind of like, I think we both know. I think we both know this politics thing.

And I'll never forget, it all fell away instantly. Oh, my God. I realized I don't like it. Oh, my God. I have no interest in it. It's I realized I don't like it. Oh my God. I have no interest in it. It's boring. I don't get it. I wish to be doing something else. That's the funniest answer we've ever had to that question. Yeah. It's so dead on. Yeah, but it's what we do. I think, you know, on the way to finding out, and trust me, it's a long journey, but on the way to, you know, figuring out who we are,

we take these wild stabs at things. And then later on, you know, you see, I mean, I know that I saw a photograph from my high school. I went to Brookline High. I saw the photograph of, I was on the editorial staff and I wrote editorials and I would write editorials about issues, you know, and I would say, well, let's tackle this issue with my editorial. And I thought I had a pencil behind my ear and I'm a, you know, I'm a young, I'm a young William F. Buckley with a lot of opinions. And then that fell away. I remembered what happened is we, I didn't even know this when I joined the newspaper,

but once a year on April Fool's Day, they would put out a all fake issue. And I remembered finding that out by accident. And so I'm writing all these, I'm serious, you know, first I was political guy. Now I'm issues man. I'm a real journalist. I'm serious. You know, first I was political guy. Now I'm issues man. I'm a real journalist. I'm Woodward and Bernstein.

I've got it. And I remember keeping a pencil behind my ear because I thought if I have a pencil behind my ear, it's, well, it's undeniable. I'm a newspaper man. And then they said, oh, we got to, man, we got to do this comedy issue. And I was like, what? And they said, yeah, we got to, man, we got to do this comedy issue. And I was like, what?

And they said, yeah, we got to. And I just started writing stuff and then writing more stuff. And then I wrote a lot of that issue and they put it out and people were saying, oh, this stuff is, this issue is really funny. Wow. And then I thought, hey, that was fun. Yeah. What was that? And then I tried to go back to being issues guy, and that fell apart.

Like, I couldn't. I had the same thing. Same thing. I was a very serious newspaper writer in high school. I was the editor-in-chief. And then once we did spoof issues, it's like, oh, this is actually the thing. Yeah. I'm much better at the spoof issues, it's like, oh, this is actually the thing. Yeah. I'm much better at the spoof issues than the real issues.

There's this misconception that the comedian, if you can go back in time in a time machine, you'll spot the comedian. He'll be the guy who's, you know, putting a firecracker in the dean's mailbox. He's the one who's, you know, setting the clock forward 20 minutes. He's the one who's, you know, throwing something out the window.

He's the guy who, and is, you know, digging up the power line and cutting it and then school's canceled for two days. You know, no, we're introspective, moody. A lot of times no one's talking to us. And then, you know, I'm sure the Bill Hader at 18 is unrecognizable to the people that idolize Bill Hader now.

Yeah, absolutely. And so much so for so many people that we're not, it's something I really do try to impart to young people is that don't look, I used to do this all the time. I used to look at people who were fully formed and then judge myself against them.

And that just created- Yes. Just worlds of pain. That is such a good piece of advice is don't judge yourself against something that is in a different stage of being. Yes, yes. It's, and even, and look, actually, you know,

the real discipline is to learn to never compare yourself to anybody across the board because that way, again, lies misery and confusion. And there's so many assholes who arbitrarily have a lot of money or they've arbitrarily had some success and they think they're better than other people when they're much worse than other people.

And so across the board, it's a bad idea, but I see it with young people a lot. There's that stage of life that I think is really tough, which is from the age of 10 to like, I wanna say 22. I mean, it's a long time, but there's a 10, 12 year period there where it's also harrowing and you don't know who you are and you don't know if you fit in in any way

or you have anything to contribute. And then what are we shown all the time? We're shown people, you know, there's a machine that's putting people and projecting people in front of us, literally projecting them so they're much bigger than us and they're perfect and they're great. And we are, I used to, I grew up thinking,

I can never be in comedy because comedians and funny people are just so much more than I'll ever be. When you were a kid, was there ever a group that you remember who wouldn't let you in? That you really wanted to be in their group? I wouldn't say I really wanted to be in. There wasn't a group that I really wanted to be in. in. There wasn't a group that I really wanted to be in, but there were plenty of, I felt alienated in, from a lot of different cliques as, as people do. There was, in my town, it's really interesting. There was, you know, Brookline has the reputation of being like this nice posh suburb and it is,

but it's interesting. It's got these different striations and layers and currents. So there's a big, I went to the Catholic church, St. Lawrence, which was right on route nine in Brookline. And that was populated by a lot of Irish kids, Irish American kids whose parents worked for the town. Their parents were the coaches. Yeah.

They were the policemen. They mowed the lawn and they were all Irish, kind of, they'd wear their hockey jerseys. They were kind of tough. They were gonna probably go to college, but maybe not finish. That was not their high on their list. And I remembered very clearly them looking at me like, here's Conan. Conan O'Brien's coming in. And my father's a microbiologist and I've got this big shock of hair and I'm super skinny and super sharp cheekbones.

And I'm occasionally referencing like Mark Twain or saying something, you know, and I remember them, that wasn't good. They didn't want any part of me. And I remembered that feeling of isolation, but also just, I mean, to be honest with you, the group, I was very interested in the opposite sex when I was in, even in late grade school,

I mean, late grade school and then in high school. And I remembered I didn't have any game and didn't know how do you make that happen? How does somebody have a girl like you? And I didn't have any idea. I had no clue. No plan. No plan and no way to have a plan.

And I came of age slowly. I'm a late bloomer. So I looked kind of like Anthony Michael Hall in 16 Candles until I was about 20. And then, I mean, I really didn't become, I remember, you know, literally, I think I was 27 or 28 when I started to see myself in a mirror

and go like, well, that's an adult, you know? But before that, I still had this, I was a very young looking kid. Yeah. And so I've always thought that the reason Gossip Girl and, or a 90210, the reason those shows resonate is that all of us wish secretly we could go back and be 17 with our current abilities oh

my gosh you know because when you watch those shows they'll you know a guy will walk up you'll watch a gossip girl and a guy will walk up to blake lively and he'll say i see the two of us having dinner tonight it'sche you know at Henri's and you're gonna be there and she'll be like well that's pretty forward and he'll say like oh you'll be there 7.30 sharp and then she turns up at 7.30 and he's at the restaurant and he's wearing a tuxedo

and she's wearing a killer dress and he says like hmm good you're three minutes late I like that you're impetuous have a seat I ordered us some martinis, you know? And then he like whips out an American Express gold card and it's all paid for. And then he's like, listen, I'm going to Morocco tonight. But when I get back, we're gonna talk about this.

And then I have a biology test and then the SATs. And you're like, this is just what I wanted. So I've had great things happen to me and I've had great things happen to me and I've had bad things happen to me, you know, highs and lows. And so, you know, when most things happen, if something happens that's not great, I have 75,000 other not great things that happen

that are in the Rolodex that I can, you know, that in the file system that I can check and they sort of hold me up and I can adjust and figure out where this falls in the spectrum. But, you know, when you're 15, 16 and, you know, someone you really like and then you realize that they like somebody else. Yeah, oh gosh.

It is operatic. It is operatic. It is operatic. It is operatic. It is operatic. It is, yeah. And it's like worthy of a crane shot and rain. And, you know, we just, you know. That's why high school shows are so good. I had two jokes I wanted to run by you. Okay.

Feel free to stomp on it, pitch in whatever you want to okay but um one of them is because this joke this joke is because it's your birthday and uh which is my observation is that um you can't really mention your birthday in the pandemic like when, in June, I turned 42. I was like, hey, it's my birthday. And everyone's like, have you seen the news? Some people will never have a birthday again. You're like, I was going to have a cake. No one has a cake.

Maybe we'd sing a song. No one will ever sing a song again. I wish you'd never been born. And that's just my parents. And then the only way you can celebrate your birthday is alone in a bathroom with

the birthday song as the measurement of how long you should wash your hands. And then if you want to give yourself a special treat. Yeah, they've turned the birthday song into, they've stripped it of all its joy and made it like an egg timer

for when the deadly virus will be off your hands. That's fantastic. If you want to give yourself a bonus while you're washing your hands, you whisper to yourself, this one's for me. That's my Conan O'Brien birthday joke. I love that.

I love that, you know, there's a thing they do and it's the media that does it. I'm thinking about CNN in particular. But, you know, have you noticed this through the pandemic where they would say, well, we hit a new number today of how many people had passed away from, and it's terrible.

It's obviously terrible. And Wolf Blitzer would say, well, the number today hit, whatever the number was at that point. Today it hit 300,000 and you'd be like, oh my God, that's awful. That's terrible. And then Wolf Blitzer, he did this every time.

He would look into the camera and say, and let me remind you, those aren't just numbers. Those are people. And I'd go, uh-huh, I know. And then he'd say, mothers, fathers, grandfathers, grandmothers, people that drove a cab, people that hailed a cab, you know, people that saw a cab. And I remember thinking it was just like this,

this thing where I would be saying, I know. And I'm alone in the room watching the TV going, I know, I know Blitz. I know Wolf, I know Wolf Blitz. I know Wolf Blitzer. I know, I know, I know. And then I would start to kind of feel like, please, you know, and then the next day it would be like,

today it's 300,025. Keep in mind, not just a number, each one, someone who put on sneakers, maybe shoes, maybe tennis shoes, a tennis player, a tennis pro. And I would think, yes, it's been a really tough time, but it is, people have to keep finding ways. I don't think as humans, we're not meant,

I mean, think about the awful things humanity has gone through just in the 20th century that make COVID look like a walk in the park. I mean, it's just absolutely dreadful. And I don't, that's a whole, each one of those generations didn't say, well, there goes joy forever. They figured out a way, you know what I mean?

And I do think it's a balancing act. It's terrible. This is awful. You should do that as a bit. You should go out and do standup. Well, I did. I did stand up like a year and a half ago. We had this idea to go out on the road with comedians.

And so I put together an act. I would show up at all the places that we go. These little, you know, like I would go to Largo where I'm taping my show now. Yeah, yeah. And I would go to the Dynasty typewriter, Upside Down Cake. Yeah, yeah.

I love both of those places. Yeah, yeah. And I'd go to these different places and I'd show up and I'd do a set and I kept trying different stuff and then, you know, stitching it together. And then out of it, I think I got about 30 minutes that was pretty, you know, like, okay, this works.

This just works. And this goes to that. And if the crowd's really good and you throw in crowd work, it could go to 45. I think my record once was it got up with a really good crowd in one of the cities. It was like, okay, I just did 45 minutes, just me. And that went really well.

So that was a great experience. But when you find something good, they like it every time, no matter where you go. Yeah. It just always worked. But I don't know if you find this, you know, they'd get to this point where you lose the joy of discovery.

Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. And then you're, and I had always had the luxury of, I mean, everything's a yin yang, the luxury and the burden of every night it has to be new, with late night and the Conan show, it always has to be the new brand. What's new, what's new, what's new?

And you can't repeat stuff. You can repeat a format, but you can't repeat a story or anything. And then you get to this point where you have, and I used to, in those days, dream, oh my God, what if I could just do the same thing every night? That would be so much less stressful. And then you realize,

well, then there's a whole other kind of burden of, you step outside yourself. You've probably done this. You're doing your thing and people are loving it, but you have this scary moment where you step, a ghost you steps outside you and watches you do it. That freaked me out. That totally freaked me out.

Yeah, I think that that's, you have to as a performer i think you you got to acknowledge that and then figure out how to get back in yes basically yeah yeah i think that i had that trick because i've definitely experienced what you're describing i had that happen i did a show in new york when we were doing the the the show. And I was in the Beacon Theater, which is I think for my money, the best venue in New York City. Gorgeous, gorgeous. Just gorgeous and big, but somehow still intimate.

Like really big, but intimate. And so I'm doing my thing and I'm in it and the crowd's really good. And then I had this moment where I got in my head for a second, sort of like, I don't, and people would think, well, that doesn't happen now at this stage in your life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you're very established. This is a whole crowd that's come to see you and paid a lot of money. I stepped out of my body. I could feel myself kind of step out of my body and I could have that unnerving, almost panic attack feeling of,

I need to be back in my body because I'm in the Beacon Theater and I'm the guy on stage and I'm the only guy on stage. We didn't tape that show, but I think if you had a tape of it and you could look at it. You could spot it.

You could see this ghostly image step out and then you could see the physical Conan pause for a second, like lick his lips for just a second and his eyes dart around and then the ghost me come back in and then a second of reassembling and then back into it. And it was horrifying.

It was terrifying. But, you know, I think what's different about your experience and mine in show business has been that you've filmed thousands of shows and projected them to millions of people. And what I've done for 20 years is performed for 50 people 100 people thousands of people and so my goal your goal is always sort of here i'm playing to essentially millions of people through this thing the lens and mine is like literally the Beacon Theater is exactly what I do, which is I need to connect with these people

for 90 minutes. And that's my entire goal. Yes. But that is, it's really not any different because I never thought, all the years I was doing the TV show, I only thought about the people in 6A when I was doing Late Night. I I only thought about the people in 6A

when I was doing Late Night. I just thought about giving those people a good show and there happened to be cameras here, but I couldn't handle the idea that this is going out to millions of people in America with television sets who I'll never meet. That was too abstract. I didn't understand that.

What I understood was this room. Yeah. And so that's always how I've done it. And when I do the podcast, I don't think about the person, you know, maybe- Jogging through the park and listening on headphones. Yeah, jogging and maybe in a different part of the world. Yeah, of course.

People in China, people in Japan, yeah. Yeah, I talked to someone who's a television host in Ireland or I did a Zoom interview and he said, oh, it was this morning, I was jogging through Phoenix Park in Dublin and I was listening to your podcast with so-and-so and I just thought, what do you mean you're in Ireland? How can you be?

And I still have that. I still really do have that. I love that. I'm just doing it for the people in the room with me. And when I'm talking to you right now, it's just, it's us having this exchange. And this is, you know, what I like about this form is that this is the exchange that you and I, you know, the times you've come on the show,

you've worked out your material, you talk to a second producer, you come on the program, you know, when we do a TV experience, and we, it's funny and it's good. It's not, it's really funny and it's good, and it's a good one of those, you know? Yeah. But then, I don't know, what we're doing here is what you and I would do

if we bumped into each other and said, hey, what are you doing right now? Nothing, there's a Noah's bagel right here. Do you wanna go in and get some coffee and a bagel? Yeah, okay, that's a good idea. And then we would have this conversation for an hour and really crack each other up. And it would be, this would be it.

And then I would come home and I'd say, yeah, I ran into Mike Birbiglia and man, we had a good time. And it was, I really like him. This is a core sample of that, which is very accurate, which is something that I find kind of joyous about this format. Pete, our mutual mutual friend Pete Holmes has said to me,

because we've talked quite a bit during the pandemic, and he's made the point that what he misses most, and this completely captures what I miss most about pre-pandemic, is the randomizer machine of life. And his example is precisely that. On the street, you happen to run into someone you went to high school with, and you go, oh, let's grab coffee,

or let's walk a couple blocks together. And you didn't know that was going to happen when you left your house. And that's gone right now. Yeah, I mean, there's no... That is absolutely true. And I'm no fan of Pete Holmes, but that is true. I'll go with him.

I'm going to send this to him immediately. Please, please tell Pete. No, Pete, absolutely hilarious. Great talent. And I adore him. And I've had a lot of good laughs with Pete Holmes. Don't try to walk this one back. You're right. I don't like Pete Holmes. I, no, don't try to walk this one back. You're right.

I don't like Pete Holmes. I'm just not a fan. I don't get it. I think one of the last experiences I had with Pete Holmes was I was taping my podcast with some other guest. This is before the pandemic. And that futuristic cinema in Hollywood was right across

the street. It's across Hollywood Boulevard. The Arclight. And diagonally across the street. And we all decided, hey, let's go watch Once Upon a Time in America, the Leonardo DiCaprio. In Hollywood. What?

I mean, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Anyway, we decided to go across the street and see that movie, just a matinee on the fly. And I invite the engineer and I invite a couple of the people there. And I'm like, come on, I'm taking us all to the movies. I wanted to be the fun dad. So we walk into the arc light and who's there?

But Pete and his wife Val, and they're gonna see it. And we're the only people seeing it. That's the randomizer machine. That's the randomizer machine. That's the randomizer machine. Then I get to enjoy another random experience, which is Pete, who is a full-grown adult, buys nine different kinds of jellied candies. No.

Yes. And popcorn and a soda. He buys literally one of everything. Then he sits down and we're watching the machines and he's like opening bags and it's stuff that would kill a diabetic in like eight seconds. And he's like gummy bears mixed with popcorn and he's chomping away.

Yes, embarrassing for Pete Holmes, not embarrassing for me and not embarrassing for you, Mike Rabiglia. So my point is Pete Holmes has a real problem with sugary treats. All right. So this last joke, this last joke is, this is a dedicated to our Irish friends who I hope, like your podcast or listening to my podcast as well, is I feel like Irish accents are contagious.

Like I was in Dublin and I said to this guy, which way is it to the airport? And he goes, it's right up the highway, lad. And I said, oh, is it now? He just suddenly go into it. He said, that's not what I sound like. And I said, don't you? He said. Wait a minute, now you're in Fargo.

Don't you now? He said, be gone with you. I said, top of the morning to you. He said, it's five in the afternoon. I said, it feels like morning whenever I'm eating my Lucky Charms. He said, that's a little offensive. I said, well, hindsight is the best insight to foresight. He said, I'm glad you've learned your lesson.

And I said, hold on. Hold on. I'm almost done. I'm almost done. He said, well, I'm glad you've learned your lesson. I said, well, you know what they say? You can't start a fire without a spark. I said, he said, I think that's by Bruce Springsteen.

I said, oh, is it now? I said, will you drive me to the airport and I'll stop doing this accent? He said, feck off. And so I get out of his car and I never seen him again. And that right there is a classic Irish story where the only part that's true was the first sentence. I like that. By the way, I have like 10 more pages. I cut it on the fly because I was like, okay, this is way too long. I did a thing in Dublin once, and we rounded up, it was at the American

Ambassador's residence in Dublin, and they rounded up all these great Irish comedians, like really some of the funniest Irish comedians, and they were all fantastic. And I remember Dara O'Briain being particularly funny. He's a wonderful comic and no relation all fantastic. And I remember Dara O'Briain being particularly funny. He's a wonderful comic and no relation to me.

Maybe, I'm sure somewhere, you know, a couple thousand years ago. But so we all had this wonderful night and everybody was so funny. And then afterwards they said, you know, let's all go out for a pint. You know, let's go get a pint. Cause the American, the ambassador said,

well, good night fellows. That was a good time. Conan, your pint uh because the american the the ambassador said well good night fellows that was a good time conan your room's at the top of the stairs and i said well uh they said no conan let's get out of here let's go get a drink so we all went and we hailed a cab and we all crammed into this cab to go to this pub that they knew and the cabbie starts talking and the cabbie's funnier than any of us by a mile oh i love that just naturally funny and i'm like oh that's ireland that's amazing ireland's amazing get nine of the funniest people you can ever find yeah and do a show there and then say let's go get a drink and there'll be an elevator operator to take you down to the first floor and he'll blow all of you out of the room. Isn't that amazing?

Ireland is, after the pandemic, I'm really hoping to travel in excess, and Ireland is one of the first places I want to go. It's just the greatest people. And I apologize for my awful accent, but I do think that the premise of that joke, Irish accents are contagious, is a truism. Yes.

Well, we have the guy, as you know, the guy who runs the Largo Theater, who we all call Flanny, Flanagan. He's from Belfast. And every day I go in to tape my show now, we Zoom interview and we do the Conan show on Turner, TBS. from Belfast. Yeah. And every day I go in to tape my show now. We do,

we Zoom interview and we do the Conan show on Turner, TBS. We do it at the Largo Theater and he's there and he's always like, oh,

it puts me in mind of a story. You know, I tell you something and then I start talking that way. It's exactly the same thing you're talking about. Like, ah,

fuck off. Flanagan, no one wants to hear you. You're shite. They don't say shit. I love that. They go shite. I don't need any of your shite. Ah, it puts me Flanagan. No one wants to hear your shite. They don't say shit. I love that. They go shite. I don't need any of your shite.

Ah, it puts me in mind of a story. So we end on a thing called working it out for a cause. I donate to a cause that you're interested in. In the past, when I was on your podcast, you suggested Core Unum, which is a food bank in greater Boston area. It's in Lawrence, Massachusetts. And it's actually a very inspiring story. A good friend of mine, again,

I keep bringing up people whose last name is O'Brien and they're no relationship to me, but a really brilliant guy I know, Paul O'Brien, Father Paul O'Brien, a Catholic priest. He's someone who I got to know a number of years ago. We actually went to college together and he joined the priesthood and he's just made it his life's mission

to do a lot of good work. And he started, he had this idea to build this shelter that would be very classy and give people in Lawrence, Massachusetts. And let me preface this by saying Lawrence is I think per capita, the poorest city in the United States. It's absolutely a devastated city. And he said, the biggest problem is, he said, I can't get kids out of a gang. I can't get kids to go to school if they're hungry. The first thing you gotta do is feed people.

So what he did is he raised all this money. He got a lot of people involved. I got involved, but so many other people did so much more than I did. And he built this incredibly beautiful, classy, I mean, it looks like a high-class restaurant, like this atrium, this open area. And his rule was no one stands in line for food.

You walk in and you sit down at a table and you're waited on by volunteers to give people their dignity. That's incredible. Yeah, my cause usually, and I would make it my cause again is core Unum because I've gone there, I've brought my kids there and we've served people.

And it's just one of the best experiences you can have. And you can see, it's the simple stuff. We live in this world where it's click here and you'll donate money to this problem in a part of the world that you'll never get to. And yes, that's good to do, but feeding people food in this, it's so primal. Like it's so like, this is, it's the basic,

get them some food and do it with dignity. Let them have their dignity. And that gives so primal. Like it's so like, this is, it's the basic. Get them some food and do it with dignity. Let them have their dignity. And that gives them a chance to turn things around. So I'm gonna donate to them. And then we're gonna link to Cor Unum in the show notes so that people can give as well. And I wanna thank you for coming on, Conan, because you're someone who I have admired comedically

and personally for so many years. Oh to thank you for coming on, Conan, because you're someone who I have admired comedically and personally for so many years. Oh, thank you. One of those things about this business that there's so many rocky things about it. But the fact that you and I have been able to, you know, be friendly over the years and from your podcast, Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend, we've embarked on what I believe will be a true friendship. Hey, listen, this has been, I love this. And like I say, this isn't work. I don't know what this is. It's just a lot of fun.

And the idea that I know for a fact that sometime, anytime in the future now, someone's gonna come up to me on the street and say, I just heard you with Mike Birbiglia. That was really fun. Once they edited it and made it better. That makes me happy. So thank you, Mike.

Thank you. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. Conan O'Brien, holy cow. Longest episode ever. That's the longest episode we've ever done. You can find Conan O'Brien very easily just by typing Conan O'Brien into a computer and you'll find it all. If you like the show, give us a star rating or even if you're feeling generous, write a user review, tweet about it,

post something on Instagram about it. We don't advertise anywhere. It's literally just you listening to it, telling people. And then that's how people find the show. And this has been almost a year. And I feel like it's getting better and better. We're having more and more fun with it.

And the guests really seem to lock into what the show is. And it's very exciting for me. So thanks for being a part of the journey. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Berbiglia, consulting producer Seth Barish, sound mix by Kate Belinsky, associate producer Mabel Lewis, thanks to my consigliere Mike Berkowitz, as well

as Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff, that's his music running through the show. As always, a very special thanks to my wife, the poet, J. Hope Stein. Our book, The New One, Painfully True Stories from a Reluctant Dad with Poems by J. Hope Stein is in your local bookstore. Support your local books. Support your local pizza. Support your local grocers.

And as always, a special thanks to our daughter, Una, who created this radio fort, which makes this sound so nice. Thanks most of all to you who have listened. Tell your friends. Maybe even tell your enemies. We are, we're working it out. See you next time, everybody.