Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 6 Tips For Bringing Your Solo Show to Broadway (and the West End!)

Episode Date: May 29, 2023

Mike’s creative collaborator and director Seth Barrish returns for a special episode of Working It Out announcing the UK premiere of “The Old Man and the Pool” at the Wyndham’s Theatre in London as well as the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in August. Mike and Seth share their excitement about bringing the show across the pond, and Mike expands on his New York Times piece “6 Tips For Bringing Your Solo Show to Broadway,” using it as a jumping off point for a discussion about creativity, writing, and performing. Plus, jokes and stories about New York City overheards, and the time Mike performed a show for 2 audience members.Please consider donating to The Barrow Group

I'm here with my director, Seth Barish. We made a show called The Old Man in the Pool, and it was our fifth solo show collaboration that he directed and dramaturged and I wrote and performed. And we're announcing today that we're going to London, to the West End. That's... That's not enthusiastic enough.

No, that was good, though. Okay. Well, you and I have one. That actually makes me think of one of the things we have in common. It's just we're both low energy. We're both. How would you describe it? Well, I would describe it if you hear good news that the first thing comes up for me.

I don't know if this is that way for you. It's like, maybe. That's so funny. way for you is like, maybe. That's so funny. That's so funny because every correspondence you and I have had about the London announcement has been hey Seth, just so

you know, these dates, try to keep them clear. We might go to London but also it's always a coin toss. I think there's so much in our business that it's just like a house of cards that any time something can go screw.

Especially the show House of Cards. That's the screw, yes. It really did go through. And it actually did prove to be a house of cards. A house of cards. It's the most authentic. You heard it here. Snarky commentary about show business.

No, so we're going to London, which is multiple people, including Alex Edelman, who has a great solo show going to Broadway this summer. And other friends have said to me when I've told them that we're bringing the show to the West End for four weeks, have said, I think people will like it there more than they like it here. Which is sort of backhanded,

but I think it's a compliment to the British audiences. No, wait, what's the theory behind that? Is it they're smarter? I don't know if it's that they're smarter. They certainly sound smarter. Let's investigate. Their accent is famously smart sounding. I think the argument is this.

I think that British audiences are more attuned to solo autobiographical plays because of where we're going right before the West End, which is the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. So for years, and I've never been to Edinburgh Fringe. I've never been to Edinburgh. I've never been to Scotland. For years, since I started doing this with Sleepwalk with me, with you like 15 years ago, 2008, people have said to me,

oh my God, you're doing an edinburgh show and i'm going oh yeah i mean i've heard that i've heard that people that's a popular form um but yeah uh you know certainly daniel kitson's shows and and uh alex edelman shows and and there's a woman named liz kingsman who actually i want i want to say say, was at the same theater that we're going to be at. Oh, really? The Windhams Theater. And she had a show called One Woman Show. And I'm pretty sure it was a big hit at Edinburgh, moved to the West End.

That's kind of the logical progression over there. So I think that there's a shorthand for it. Yeah. I think here. They're like, what is this? Yes. What is this? I think here... They're like, what is this?

Yes, what is this? Which is the thing that you and I have dealt with with all of our shows. I think in every set of interviews, there's a point at which someone says, so what are you doing? What do you call this? Yeah, that's right.

How do you answer that what these shows are when I say that I say my sleepwalk with me and then my girlfriend and boyfriend and then thank god for jokes

and then the new one and then this one is the old man in the pool and other and other solo shows that you've directed the tricky part

and all the rage with Martin Moran and others well in the case of you're in my stuff I always say it's really a hybrid between stand up and storytelling and the idea is to in the case of you and my stuff, I always say it's really a hybrid between stand-up and storytelling.

And the idea is to take the best of both and let them make each other better so that the storytelling gets improved by just the laugh quotient and all that goes along with that. And the comedy gets deepened because it's in reference to something. That's kind of how I describe it to people.

It's funny because Ira Glass who we've worked with both on some of these shows as well as these two movies we worked on together, Sleepwalk With Me and Don't Think Twice, he always describes it as when you're telling a story, you give a little bit of plot and then how you feel

about the plot and then a little bit more plot and then how you feel about the plot. He's always said that my secret weapon with these shows is that how i feel about it's funny yeah and so it kind of uh it greases the wheels of the story a bit totally i would even take that a step further i would say that you know one of the standard guide posts for storytelling is uh this thing show don't tell where instead of talking about what it means to a character, or in this case, you, because you're talking about your life and stuff,

there are actually things that are happening that are communicating that. And I think that one of the things that's just inherent in your form of comedy is analogy. And so when you're using an analogy, people are getting how you feel about it, but you're never saying, I feel this, I feel that. You're just talking about pizza and stuff like that. Yeah, going to the doctor. Yeah. And I'll tell you a funny, you're saying an analogy,

and people always ask me, what does a director of a solo show do? That's like a classic thing, especially with ours, because our goal is sort of to have it not feel like... We're visible, ideally. We're not

pushing the audience and winking. Yes, exactly. There's very few winks. There's a joke that made it into the show that is basically about how I went to, in Oman and the Pool, I went to

my annual checkup and the doctor asked me to step on the scale, which for whatever reason is still the old-fashioned abacus thing. You're not 1,000 pounds. You're not zero pounds. You're not 970 pounds. You're not 21 pounds. You're not 650 pounds. You're not 411 pounds. I'm like, what time is it? He's like, it's not 2 o'clock. It's not 6 o'clock.

It's not 2.15. It's not 4.45. I'm like, what time is it? He's like, it's not 2 o'clock, it's not 6 o'clock, it's not 2.15, it's not 4.45. Great example of directing. I did that joke, came up with a joke, showed it to you, you go, bring it a little bit more into the reality of the scale.

Yeah, yeah. What's it like when you move those things? How heavy it is. I know that seems What's it like when you move those things? How heavy it is. Yeah. And I know that seems minuscule of a note, because it is a small note. It makes the laugh so much bigger.

Yeah, because I think people, it goes from them completely recognizing it, and they're in, to like, what is that? I'm kind of in, and it's a very different experience. Yeah. So I thought a fun thing to do today, because today we're announcing six shows in Edinburgh and Scotland and 30 performances of The Old Man of the Pool

at the Wyndham's Theatre in the West End. When are these performances? These are August in Edinburgh, September in London. Yeah. And so I thought I was going to read and I thought we could sort of talk through your experiences with these approaches to writing a solo show and creating a solo show.

I wrote this for the New York Times many years ago when we took the new one, our last Broadway show, to Broadway and it's called Six Tips for Getting Your Solo Play to Broadway. I recently wrote my fourth solo play, a comedy about how no one should ever have children and how after my wife and I had a child, I learned that I was right. The new one is going to Broadway, and the biggest question I'm asked since I announced the run is, how did that happen? I'm not sure. But if I take a step back and try to answer the question, I'd say there

was no single step. It was a series of steps over years. And on top of that, it's luck. It's your 10,000 hours of preparation meeting 12 other people's 10,000 hours of preparation, meeting $3 million laundered through the Cayman Islands, meeting luck. By the way, we should acknowledge not only our producers, our designers, the old man in the pool. I mean, it's an extraordinary team of people. I'm stepping away from the six tips for a second to say that's actually one of the things I think people misunderstand about solo shows is that it's not one person. Oh, yeah. And in a sense, any show. I think people are oriented towards, you know, all the press tends to be about what's actually on the stage

and the performers and all this thing. And it's just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, you think of a film, oh my God, it's an army of people making it happen. And I think in theater, it's the same concept. It's a smaller army, but it's definitely a whole bunch of people behind the scenes for sure. So six tips for getting your solo play to Broadway. For me, it began with my first solo play, Sleepwalk, with me 15 years ago.

And if you want to try writing a solo play, I suggest that you, number one, write a journal. Document your life, the good stuff, the bad stuff, mostly the bad stuff. What's wrong with you is more interesting than what's right. I've always felt like we go to solo theater, autobiographical solo theater, to be told secrets. When I was developing the new one, I was writing in my journal all of these secret feelings I had about being a new dad, feeling like everything I did was a mistake. And one day I wrote, my wife and daughter love each other so much,

and I'm there too. And in the margin I wrote, this could be something. I think I still have that around somewhere. I shared it with my wife, Jen, who's a poet, and she encouraged me to say it on stage. And that line ended up forming the foundation of the whole play. Oh, yeah. That's so much it.

You know, it's funny because a lot of writers work in different ways. Some of them free write, where they just sit down and just kind of write whatever. Some people kind of think of outlines and story structures, and then they write to that. But at some point, you're kind of having this dialogue with your subconscious and things are coming to mind, you're writing them down. I'm thinking of Marty Moran, who wrote The Tricky Part. And, you know, this whole story that chronicles this extended relationship that he had with a 34, I think the guy was 34 year old guy when he was 12. It's completely not a good thing. And he was free writing every day and he kept writing in the margin, say what happened when you're 12, say what happened when you're 12.

And at some point he was like, maybe I should write to that and out came this incredible thing. So I mean, that's kind of an example where you know you write that line all of a sudden it's like there it is you know yeah it's interesting like i will say that having written in my journal for almost 20 years and done all these autobiographical shows it's the things that you write down that you're uncomfortable even writing on paper that end up being some of the best lines in the show. Oh, totally. I've said to Jen, just so you know, if I die, burn the journals. Don't save the journals. I don't want to find out they're in some... That's a good title, by the way.

Oh, yeah, burn the journals. Burn the journals. That's very good. That is good. Put that up on the board. I have, you know, behind you, I have some title ideas for my next hour, which I'm working on right now. I'm traveling to doing, well, this summer I'm doing.

Bird shit latte. No, that's just a joke. That's just a joke. Sorry, that's a joke. One of them is they're just jokes. One of them is living is winning. One is sweating on the inside. Yeah, that's good.

And one's What's the Rush? There's another one I wrote down today, but I forgot what it was. That's actually one of my process things is I'm always writing perspective titles. I probably go through like 10, 20 titles. You know, of all the people I work with, you're the one who pitches titles soonest in a process. You're just like, I'm thinking of calling it this.

I'm like, okay, what is it? Maybe. And then, you know, I would say four out of five times, you either end up calling it that or you end up calling it something that's clearly inspired by that. Well, it's funny.

I really believe in this idea with movies that when you finish your movie script or a play or whatever it is, and you're going to take it to try to get financing, try to get made, you should actually think about it in terms of what's the 25-second pitch and what does the trailer look like?

Because really, that's what's going to get people to see it yeah interesting and um and so with the old band in the pool i always this has been my pitch for four years i say i i hit a point in my life where i started going to doctor's appointments that got increasingly worse and worse and i started to see my own mortality. And what I wanted to do was bring people into the theater and have them laugh about it for about 90 minutes and arrive at a communal feeling where people feel affirmed on the way out. Yeah, that's right. Affirmed is the thing, isn't it? I say that because I've seen so many people that tell these stories that are just

tragic and awful, but there's nothing redemptive in it. And at the end, you're like, that was, I feel so bad for that person. It's definitely a choice. I mean, over the years, with movies and TV and plays, there's definitely like, there's a decision that the writer makes,

which is like, do I take them over the cliff? Or do I show them how to sort of climb down from the cliff? Yeah, or even if you go over the cliff, is there something that still is redemptive? I mean, I can think of a couple of movies I've seen over the years that I can't find the redemptive thing.

And in some cases, they're movies I thought, that movie is so well made and it's really moving. But I couldn't find myself recommending it to my friends i was just like i had an intense experience uh that's you know yeah so wait i had one other thing about oh i had a cliff i had i had a joke uh i had a joke this morning maybe for the next next show, which is if you look, parenting is like hiking. It's like nobody's ever like great job hiking. They're just like, keep hiking. And sometimes you want to jump off a cliff and you're like, wait, I'm the guide.

Oh, that's just so sadly true. Yeah. So number six tips for making a solo play. Share it with your smartest friends. My wife Jenny and I are each other's first readers. I share my work with Ira Glass, my director Seth Barish, my brother Joe. The question I always ask is not whether they like it. That's useless.

What I ask is when were you bored? When were you most excited? Yeah. I feel like I learned that from you. Well, sort of. Or some variation. Yeah, a variation of it. I think that I'm always asking people if they were lost or confused for sure.

That is like, to me, it's like there's a direct relationship. If you're lost and confused, you're out. You're spending your time going, what is this exactly? So that's huge for me. And I also do like to hear from people things that, when they were particularly engaged. I don't tend to ask people when they were bored, although I know that that is something that you ask a lot.

It's a trick question. It's a little bit of a trick question. I'm tricking them into telling me the truth. It's true. It's a trick question. It's a little bit of a trick question. I'm tricking them into telling me the truth. It's true. It's true. I'm tricking them. I'm prodding them to what they're expecting, what your friends are expecting you to say is,

did you like it? Yeah, yeah. And so the off-speed pitches, when were you confused or bored? And they're like, hmm, confused and bored. And then they let their guard down. And you sock them in the gut. You take their money.

You sock them in the gut? Yeah, you sock them in the gut. You take their money. You throw them in an alley. And then you go, what did you really think of my plan? I like that plan so much. It's so good. I have number three, hire your

wife. And then I say, well, you might not be able to hire your wife, but I think it's wise if you're writing autobiographically to include the people closest to you in the process. One day I asked Jenny to brainstorm with me for a section I was writing about some of our daughter Una's first milestones. And she pulled out her poetry notebook and read me this an infant reaches for something i don't know what pushes it farther away and cries in frustration each time she reaches not realizing she's crawling for the first time she's just like her father and now i recite the poem in the play verbatim credited credited yes indeed i want there's a credited story from the other day oh yeah una goes um una was in the sun the other day.

Jenny and I were in the sun. They got freckles. And Una said to Jenny, she goes, it's like you drank freckle juice except it worked. And Jenny was like, that's a great joke. And then a few minutes later she goes, it's like you drank freckle juice except it worked. And then Una goes, that's a great joke. And then a few minutes later she goes, it's like you drank freckle juice except it worked. And then Una goes, don't steal my joke.

And then I said to Una, I know how you feel. I've had people steal jokes from me. It doesn't feel great. But yeah, we made the distinction. What Mom was doing was a callback. Yeah. but yeah but Jen was we made the distinction what Jen what mom was doing was a callback yeah

but yeah so Jen was a huge part of the process and of course your wife is a huge part of your artistic worries yeah I mean it was funny

when you first started bringing that tip I thought was the tip that everybody should hire specifically your wife or I should hire my wife

yeah no I do Lee Brock who's my wife. No, I do. Lee Brock, who's my wife and life partner and co-artistic director of my theater company, The Barrow Group, and I do everything with her. There's nobody I trust more when it comes to getting feedback.

And everything I'm doing, I'm checking with her and going like, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? And I think it's incredible to turn things into a team when you have a great team to work with. It's just like harnessing all that power.

It's interesting, you and I have that in common. Both Lee and Jenny are artists who, Lee works really in an identical field. She directs plays, she acts in plays, etc. Jenny's a poet and I'm a comedian which have analogous aspects to him and but this it oddly harkens to this thing that my professor john glab and my screenwriting playwriting professor in college said when i went back years later i went back like 10 years after i graduated from school and I'm speaking in his class and he goes, he goes, one thing you should know about Mike is that when he was here,

his girlfriend was an actor, his roommate was an actor and a writer, you know, like, and he, he basically said like, he didn't just do the thing, he lived the thing. And it's a weird piece of advice to give people because you don't want to prescribe to someone, hey, you should live the thing versus do the thing. Because in some ways it's unhealthy to really live the thing. But I have to say, that being said, anecdotally, a lot of people I know who are really good at it have that part of their life.

Yeah, totally. And I think of it sometimes as being surrounded by the thing. It's like you're just like everywhere you look, there's inspiration. And if you're not in touch with artists that you respect and admire, then it gets harder to find the inspiration. And that's to me really what it's all about.

It's like you stay in touch with the thing that inspires you. It's a tricky thing to describe to people because this idea of like surrounding yourself with the thing because there's a part of you that wants to say like, no, there's a work-life balance and there's this and there's this. And it's like that work-life balance thing. I don't know anybody who has it. And if you're hearing these success

stories on it, let me know. I'd like six tips on work-life balance. There's this great book on directing, which is Ilya Kazan on directing. And one of the things I always cite, he has great advice

in this. I mean, he's a director. He did street car. He did countless things. But one of the things he says is take the subway instead of a taxi. So you're staying in touch with the world, basically? Yeah. And you're observing. And you're observing more of things happening versus that you're in like a capsule.

Yeah. And you're separate from the world. Totally. That's one of the things that I notice a lot for directing, especially when people are directing realism, where, you know, what they're trying to depict on stage or in film is meant to come off as the real thing. A lot of times I watch people and I think, or I watch, I should say I watch their scene work or the film work or whatever and I go, that doesn't look like the real thing to me. And I think that if people use it as a standard real life when they're doing realism, not only is it helpful,

it's really easy because it's around you all the time. People are just having breakfast and if you really start to look at it, a lot of times you go like, well, it looks like movie breakfast. That's one of the jokes I wrote recently that I've been doing on stage on the Working It Out stuff is my favorite podcast is The Subway. And it's a great podcast. You put in your earbuds and then you don't press play.

And then you just listen to all the stuff. What's the weirdest thing you ever heard on a subway? Oh, my God. I've had so many weird ones. So one of the ones recently was these girls were like, this one girl goes, you like Spanish men? She goes, you got to go to LA. They got money, cars, double dick.

I was like, double dick? I was like, double dick? I was like, double dick? That's a very well-known Spanish thing. I guess so. I felt so lucky that I haven't been single for all these years. I just do not meet the standards of a modern single man. Gone are the days of having a single dick or even one and a half penises. You need two

full penises, not to mention money and cars. I can imagine a scenario where I'm on one of those dating apps. Well, I have money. I have cars, a single penis. People are like, swipe, no, whatever that is. I don't even know. I don't know which way you swipe. But no, swipe no. But double-dick. That was one that I thought, the moment I heard it, I was like, I'm writing that down verbatim. Oh my God. Yeah.

Oh my God. And then the subway, I think, is just filled with fascinating conversations. You know, one of the, it's not quite as funny as what you just described, but it was such an odd thing. In my neighborhood, there's a very Orthodox Jewish community up there. And these women got on the train, they were talking, and he goes, so, do you want a hat or no hat?

And they were referring to a matchmaker working with them and who they matched them up with, somebody who wears a yarmulke all the time or doesn't. And I was like, wow, that is life reduced. Like romantically? To marry. Really? Do you want a hat?

A hat or no hat? And that's not sort of a double entendre for being circumcised or something like that? I don't think so. I don't think they meant it that way at all. Sounds like you didn't understand the conversation, Seth. Had or no had. Yeah. Wow.

Right? I was trying to think. There was one the other day. Oh, my God. Yeah, this was one of the wild ones recently. It was on the subway late at night. These two women. I'm the only other person there, and they start arguing with each other, and it gets worse and worse.

And then one of them goes, you bitch. And I thought, oh, I just felt awful because I knew that I wasn't going to help. And then the other one goes, you bitch. And I was was like it's not the time to give notes but lateral move and the first woman goes you white bitch and i'm just like and i'm out but then the white woman looked at me and gave me this look like, what are we going to do? And I'm just like, it's not we. I'm not of the we, the white we, Subway Federation. And in the joke, I go like, I wouldn't have even done anything if she had said it to my own wife. I would have been like, we're leaving this Subway car now.

You know what I mean? But I gave her the best advice I could with my eyes. I telepathically sent the message, don't reply. And this episode is operating like our shows do. This is the spine. The six tips are the spine. And then we're digressing out and coming back in. It's mostly digression.

number four is practice on six tips over the course of two years i've performed the new one and this was back in 2018 in 60 cities in three countries i'm still making changes the show will run again this was five years ago the show will run for 12 weeks at the court theater and i will have my binder backstage with every performance, making notes on what could work better. Completely true, by the way. So I had that binder to the bitter end. You had a binder with this show, too. Yeah, yeah. I am. I wrote here,

the script is a living, breathing item that changes constantly, and the audience has everything to do with it. By the way, an audience can be any number of people. It can be a living room of friends, an open mic at a coffee house, or a speech at a bar mitzvah. These are not joke examples. These are memories. This is something I always tell folks is more than anything, especially young folks who are working on solo monologues and storytelling, is just ask friends who usually friends were who have similar goals to be a storyteller be a solo playwright if they can bounce stuff off of them yeah and and just and

just hear the feedback I would say actually a lot of times even once you've developed that relationship you don't even ask and you know there's you'll be talking with me and I'll kind of go like oh he's trying out some stuff and I'll just kind of listen. Yeah. You know, and to me it's like, and I'm, that's not in any way a burden. It's like, oh, this is delightful. I think it's really fun to be part of a collaborative process

just by being an ear, just by listening and everything. Because I was, as you were saying that, I was thinking, I wonder what the fewest number you've performed for is. But in an official setting, what's literally the fewest? I think at a college or two, I performed for like one or two people. I mean, years. You went out, there was one person and you did a whole set? Yeah, yeah.

I think like I've had like a hand, like early on in my career, I had a ton of colleges that really helped me quit my day job. They were booked through NACA, which is like the National Campus Activities events where they book a ton of jugglers and magicians and comedians and musicians. And then you perform, you showcase, and then hopefully you book 10, 20, sometimes 100, 200 colleges in a year over the course of the calendar year. And I think I want to say like I did the Midwest regional one, and I booked like 30 colleges. And you really – what happens is you show up, and they've booked so many things, and often they just forget to advertise. Yeah. So you show up, and it it's just there's no advertising they go do you want to do the show or not do the show and you go so who is

it and they're like it's just me you know right and you go all right yeah i'll do that i'll do something here you know and they whatever so i've yeah i've performed for like two three people maybe the activities board probably four or five people. I have to say, some of the best learning experiences were those shows. Oh, totally. Even writing, when we were doing Sleep Up with me,

I remember we went down to Pace University and you performed. And this was at this point, the show was already like an 80 minute long thing. And you performed for, I think, six people is my memory. And that was like, we got so much from that. Well, it's interesting also

because, and this is something from the new one that we learned, which is try to perform for as many different age groups as possible. Because at one point I had done the show at Princeton University, and the new one, and it was, and people, if they haven't seen the new one, it's on Netflix, and you can see at the had done the show at Princeton University, the new one.

People, if they haven't seen the new one, it's on Netflix. You can see at the beginning of the show, I set up the whole show with this analogy about the couch. When you're younger, you get a couch in the street, and you bring it home to your roommates, and they're like, nice. Then eventually, you reach a point where you're like, I'm a grown-up. I'm going to buy a couch. You go to the couch store, and you're like, I'm a grown-up. I'm going to buy a couch. And you go to the couch store and you're like, how much is it? And that whole riff came from one day at Princeton talking about having a kid. No, I never want to have a kid, blah, blah, blah.

And I was just like, it just didn't connect. Yeah, they couldn't relate. This is probably 2017. I could see in their eyes. There were some laughs, but it just was not there. It was not the magic that I was experiencing performing for people in their 30s and 40s. And I was like, what if I just build it out with an analogy that anyone can understand? And so that's what the couch became. And if I hadn't performed for this group of college students, I wouldn't have discovered that.

You know, it's so funny, the couch thing, it's like, it never would have occurred to me that that's an apt analogy. And yet, the second, whenever you describe it, I wouldn't have discovered that. You know, it's so funny, the couch thing, it's like, it never would have occurred to me that that's an apt analogy. And yet, the second, whenever you describe it, I always think of like, oh, I remember completely the couch that we got and the place we live that we got it. And as it turns out, it was this big couch that was

filled with fleas. And we didn't know it, and we started just getting, you know, it was terrible. So we had to flea-bomb the place. Flea-bomb. The whole house. And then it was still filled with fleas. Oh, my gosh.

And we flea-bombed it again. And number five, rewrite. When I studied dramatic writing in college, my professor, John Glavin, printed out the screenplay for American Beauty. This was in the 90s. And he told me, notice it says draft 12. And I remember thinking because it was so shocking to me that must be an anomaly that and it isn't everything i produced

on stage and screen went through 10 or 20 drafts believe it or not you're currently reading the 12th draft of of this list rewriting to me as a badge of honor for a year the final story in the new one took place with my wife and daughter on a beach. And one day, our collaborator, Ira Glass, said to me, I don't think it should end there. I think it should end somewhere else. And it did. I won't say where. I had already toured 30 cities with artwork of myself on a beach.

I had made a promotional video with seals in it in La Jolla on a beach. And now the beach story is gone. And this is something you and I have talked about a lot because you worked with a lot of different playwrights over the years. And I feel like you've had the experience where some playwrights are more flexible on where they'll go with their script once they think it's done and where sometimes they're open to changing. Yeah, it's done and where they're sometimes, they're open to changing.

Yeah. I actually, it's an interesting dance because there's, I actually feel like flexibility and openness is essential to great art. I think, I mean, I'm supposed to, I shouldn't say essential.

It's possible that there's some great art that didn't come out that way, but I think that's the way it usually goes down. That, that said, there's also something where as the piece starts to develop and for you as an artist, where you identify something that feels like it's central, like it's the center. And if you get too far away from the center, it can get kind of problematic. So it's not about compromising or letting everybody else,

you know, whatever they say, I'm going to do that. But that said, if you attach too much to what you've written along the way, you don't have a shot to see what it could improve into. And I watch so many people who get over-attached and under-attached. So there's some people like, there's their friend that goes, my friend didn't like the second half,

so I'm getting rid of it. He's like, you're getting rid of the entire second half of your thing? I say, yeah, he didn't like it. I go, next day another friend comes and goes, what happened to the second half? I like it. He goes, the second half's back.

And so there's that. The flip side of it is this sense that they're so attached to what they've written that they won't consider changing anything. And to me, it's sad. I don't think I've ever seen a writer who's that attached really fulfill their potential. I don't think.

I think so much of it's about, and you and I have taught some workshops and things on this topic before. And I feel like one of the hardest things to convey, because I feel like young storytellers can only learn this themselves through the process, is that there's a difference between getting feedback, like you're saying, and completely changing what your vision is, and the idea of coming in with a vision, hearing from people

through feedback, whether or not the vision you have in your mind is being conveyed in their experience of it, and then trying to understand how you could get closer to conveying the vision you have in your head. This is like a great piece of advice Jake Johanson gave me when I was opening for him when I was in college college when I was 20 years old. I said, this one joke doesn't really work. And it wasn't a great joke, but it was just about how I'd hate to be a fly

because everyone's always like, get out of here. And you're like, where do you want me to go? It doesn't seem like you want me anywhere. I become this emotional fly. And I go, Jake, I think this is funny, but like it doesn't get a laugh. And he goes, well, he's like, well, maybe you're not expressing

the vision that's in your head. Maybe you're not sort of bringing them into what actually you think is deeply funny about it. He goes, for example, you could say like, you know, you don't even want me on the shit. Do you want the shit? And he kind of pitched back to me

a version of it that was like slightly more specific. But it was my vision. That's what the joke was. And he's just basically saying like, sometimes they're not seeing the vision you have in your head. And your job as a comedian or autobiographical storyteller

is to convey what you're seeing in your head. Absolutely. And whenever I hear people go like, I didn't like blank, fill in the blank, if it's something that I'm part of working on, I'm always saying like, what did you get from that? And that tells me where the miscommunication is. I go like, oh, they're getting that.

What could be changed so that they get what's intended? It's super, this is a super key point. And I know that Seth has this very understated delivery. And so you might be like passing through this and not even paying attention, but actually herein lies the gold. Is this tip number? We're still on five. We're still on five.

But I do think like, I think what you're saying is really, really crucial because I think a lot of times there's this sense in culture, which is like, hold on to your vision. And you should. But, you know, it's like the old expression, the eye can't see itself. Yeah. And often you cannot see whether or not the vision you have is being understood the way you're intending it.

That's right. I would argue it's impossible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the same thing that we've talked about before when you talk about how you'll write a joke and then it's really the audience that tells you it's funny. You might think this is the funniest joke in the world. It's the famous Seinfeld line,

the audience tells you what's funny about you. Yeah. Number six, brace yourself for criticism. Revealing yourself can be lonesome. When an audience doesn't respond, it feels like they're saying, not only do we not like your show, we don't like you as a person. And sometimes they are saying that. So don't hang out with those people. Sometimes those people are in your family and you have to hang out with them. It would take a whole other set of tips to deal with that. The point is you're taking a risk for a reason. You're doing it for the people who might feel better about something in their lives because of something you're willing to admit about yours. So if you're interested in having a solo play on Broadway, that's where I'd start. And after all that, if you're lucky, your 10,000 hours will perform a perfect collision with 12 other people's

10,000 hours, and the theater will open up because the play network decided to move from the court to the Belasco, and the stars will align on that day. You'll have a Broadway show, and you'll walk up to the theater for the first day of rehearsal, and a young, beautiful couple will walk by and look up at the marquee, and they'll say, who is Mike Birbiglia? That's the end of the piece. How do you feel about going to the West End? I'm actually genuinely excited about that. What is the most exciting thing? Well, first of all, I've never been. I mean, I've been as a customer.

I've never worked over there in this capacity at all. And that's really exciting. Because it's one of those things you think about. I don't know, I grew up thinking that, I think in England, that's where the real stuff is. And then when I was in college and I went over there for the first time, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm seeing this theater.

And the theaters have that, they just have this really rich history and all this stuff. And then we're going to be in one of them. It's crazy. After we're at the Wyndhams, I think it's King Lear, directed by Kenneth Branagh. And then after that in the season is Long Day's Journey

into Night with Brian Cox and Patricia Clarkson. I was like, oh, we're in the big leagues here. We've got to bring it. Yeah, it is. In a certain way, it feels like the biggest league. It's really cool.

So the final thing we do on the show is called Working It Out for a Cause. And you were on before. We gave to an organization. But I thought today, I was just going to overrule you and have us contribute to your theater company because it's a nonprofit theater company called The Barrow Group. You're the co-artistic director with your wife, Lee Brock. And for my money,

I think that you put on if not the best plays, some of the best plays in New York City in a small, off-Broadway theater. And you have classes and amazing acting classes and solo show workshops and solo show classes and all this stuff. And so I

think barrowgroup.org I I think, is your site. That is the site. That's very sweet of you. Yeah, I believe so much in what we do. And I welcome anybody to check out the website, BarrowGroup.org, and come around. I mean, it's really cool. Your fancier alumni include people like Anne Hathaway and Tony Hale and really a lot of people.

Yeah, Poonam Jagannathan, Sarita Chowdhury, so many. You have an amazing track record. Yeah, our alumni, without any exaggeration, is in the tens of thousands. It's not great. All right, well, we're going to contribute to the Bear Group.. It's not great. All right. Well, we're going to contribute to the Bear Group. We encourage you to do so as well.

And also just check out their site and see if maybe there's a good class for you if you're around New York City or check out their next show. Thanks, Seth. I'll see you. I'll see you in London. Did you say Monday? I'll see you in London. Oh, in London.

And Monday. Perfect. I'll see you Monday as well as in London. Olé. I was trying to think earlier. Maybe there'd be like a chant like, Olé, olé, olé, olé, old man and the pool. Olé.

Is that a British thing? Or is it just European soccer? It's soccer, I think. But the notion of a soccer stadium and chanting that. Yeah, we got to get that going. Totally. That's a good marketing initiative. Working it out, because it's not done.

Working it out, because there's no... That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. I love that Seth Barish. I'm so excited to be working with him on The Old Man and the Pool in Edinburgh and in London at the Wyndhams. Oh man, you gotta go on my Instagram and see the video I just posted where I have a photo of the

Wyndhams. It's like one of the most gorgeous theaters in the world. It's unbelievable. I can't believe it. Another thing that I should point out is that I just announced a show in Sag Harbor this summer which is in Long Island. Levittown, a little club show in Levittown,

working out new material. I'm also working out new material at a club in New Brunswick, New Jersey. All of those on Burbiggs.com. Best way to find out is on the mailing list. Sign up. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Joseph Burbiglia and Peter Salomon,

associate producer Mabel Lewis, consulting producer Seth Barish, assistant producers Gary Simons and Lucy Jones. Sound mix by Ben Cruz, supervising engineer Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Uppfall and David Raphael and Nina Quick, my consiglieres, Mike Berkowitz.

Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to Jay Hopestein, my consiglieres, Mike Berkowitz. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to Jay Hopestein, my wife, the poet, little astronaut, is in bookstores now. And actually, check her Instagram, at Jay Hopestein. She has another little book that she just dropped that's really excellent as well. Special thanks, as always, to my daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. And thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy our show, enjoy it.

Review it on Apple Podcasts. Put a little stars there. A little stars review. A little thing that says which of the episodes is your favorite. We're coming up on our 100th. Next week is our 100th episode. We're thrilled about it. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Imagine a scenario where you're on the

subway and somebody says something rude to you. And you can say, I'm sorry, I'm listening to my favorite podcast, which is the subway. And they'll be so confused. And you'll say, it's a joke. I heard it on Mike Birbiglia's Working Canown. You should try it sometime. I'll see you next time, everybody.