Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - The History of Comedy Since Seinfeld with Jesse David Fox

Episode Date: July 1, 2024

Jesse David Fox is one of the definitive voices in comedy history and analysis. He’s written for Vulture and New York Magazine and now he sits down with Mike to discuss his new book Comedy Book, which covers among other things the comedy boom of the past 20 or so years. Mike and Jesse break down what it’s like to write *about* comedy, and why Mike trusted Jesse to document his creative process in the Peacock documentary Good One, based on Jesse’s podcast. Plus, Mike holds Jesse’s feet to the fire on a controversial piece Jesse wrote about John Mulaney.Please consider donating to the National Network of Abortion Funds

So, I love comedy book. Oh, thank you. I wasn't going to read it. Really? I thought you'd at least read the parts about you. Which is what a lot of comedians have done. When they've complimented the book, they're like, love the book. And I realize they mean the part I wrote about that minute.

That is the voice of the great Jesse David Fox. If you're like a diehard comedy fan, I think you know the name Jesse David Fox. He's written for years for Vulture and New York Magazine and many other publications. He writes about comedy a lot. He's the host of The Good One podcast, which is a show I've been a guest on multiple times, the second time recently,

which actually also got converted into a Good One documentary, which happens to be about me and my comedy process. You can watch that on Peacock streaming. People have really dug that. So if you haven't heard about it, you should go watch it. It's really, it's like an hour and it's fun. It's interesting. It kind of documents the process of me on tour,

starting out the tour that i'm doing right now um which by the way thank you for coming to it's called the please stop the ride tour this week i'm in niagara falls i'm at falls view casino niagara falls then at the end of the month i'm doing five shows at the bay street theater in sag harbor new york i think four of those are sold out. There's a few left for the show on Sunday. Check out verbigs.com while they're available. The tour continues in September in Red Bank, New Jersey. There are two shows there at the Count Basie. I'm doing one in Seattle. I added a third show in Portland, Oregon. That's a beautiful

theater, a little Newmark Theater. Love it, love it, love it. That one's an encore of the show I did last fall. In case you went to that show, just know it's just a further along version of that same show. I'm doing two shows in San Francisco. I'm doing a show in Oakland at the Fox, the historic Fox Theater. Philadelphia. I'm at the Music Hall, which is where I saw Melania a couple years ago. It was so good. I've never played there before.

We added a second show in Minneapolis. We have a show in Madison, as well as Milwaukee, Champaign, Indianapolis, Ann Arbor, Detroit, Dayton, Pittsburgh, which we added a second show in Pittsburgh, Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville, Asheville, and Charleston, South Carolina. All of this is on Burbigs.com. I'm thrilled to go to all these cities. We will be adding more in the winter.

Be the first to find out by signing up for the mailing list. So today on the show, we got Jesse David Fox. You can just call him Jesse Fox for short if you want. But he wrote a book last year called Comedy Book. In my universe, this book is a huge, huge deal because it documents the history of mostly the comedy boom in the last 20 or 30 years, essentially like post-Seinfeld, and how that relates to the larger culture. I think it's fascinating. His bio calls Jesse a comedy critic,

but he's also sort of a historian of comedy. He's a storyteller. His book is a sort of part memoir in a certain way about his relationship with comedy, his love for comedy. It's a great book. It's a real page-turner. The audiobook's great, too. We talk about his book.

We talk about the process of making the Good One documentary special with me, how I trusted him to document my process, which was very stressful for me and hard to do. We talk about how Jesse sort of became one of the definitive voices in writing about comedy, and

I hold his feet to the fire about a personal issue I have. It's very good. It's amicable. It's fun. Enjoy my chat with the great Jesse David Fox. When you go to a comedy show, is it like the character in Ratatouille going to a restaurant? In a way,

in the full arc of that movie, right? At the end of that movie, that critic likes things, right? So and so much is like, I think I am, I have a really hard time when I feel like a comedian's being like cynical on stage and not giving their all. And so- Say more about cynical.

I wish I had- Because cynical's baked into comedy in a certain sense. Not the point of you being cynical. I'm not saying being cynical in their perspective. I think you could be funny and cynical. I mean like cynical about the relationship to the audience, right?

So they are seeing it as transactional. They're seeing the audience there as completely either working for them or not even trying to connect to the audience. Right.

I mean the easiest example is if the audience doesn't laugh, criticizing them for not laughing. Yes. Right? You know,

I often go to shows in Brooklyn. You'll see Manhattan comedians do shows there and be like, Brooklyn audiences, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. It's like, they're people too. These people could be your audience.

Right. If you're coming to the show open, you can learn from this example. Right. And be like, oh, I need to change this joke if I want this audience. Because I'm pretty sure, well, depending, but I think like the biggest comedians figure out how to work in both spaces. So that's what I mean by cynical. They've already ridden off certain crowds and as a result are just going through the motions of it.

Right. You call that out with Bill Burr. You basically say that he at a certain point called out the idea of alternative comedy scenes are essentially like a group of friends laughing at each other. Yeah. And those people aren't willing to go to like clubs or like general spaces where like tourists are coming essentially. Yeah, and I think that, I mean, that was a perspective of that time.

I think at this point, the delineation between alternative comedy and mainstream comedy is quite confused because I think a lot of what we think of alternative comedy happens on the internet now. Yeah. And not in even like a union hall. But I do think

like I've seen Bill at UCB type spaces and he will do well. Like he's not going to be like you're, and if he is going to be calling them out, he's going to be doing it in a way funny enough that it wins them back. So I think I am quick to be like, we're doing that.

Or like if someone's being a little bit hacky, and if an older comedian's being hacky. If you're new and you're still figuring out, I'll give you a lot of grace. They try to laugh more than I probably normally would. At the same time, if I feel like I'm seeing someone doing something exciting or new, or just feel like, oh, I've seen them a few times,

but they've really figured out their voice with this one part of one joke, I'm very present there. I try to laugh really, really hard. If I know them or even like very present there. I try to laugh really, really hard. I try to, if I know them or even don't know them. I try to laugh really, really hard. I try to not be observing. You know, I can be in an audience.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. An active participant in the audience, yeah. And if it's like just I'm going to see a comedian, like a comedian that I know and they're working on their hour or whatever, I can just be in the audience. Like it's not like, if I'm not planning on reviewing the show, a comedian that I know and they're working on their hour or whatever, I could just be in the audience. If I'm not planning on reviewing the show,

I remember I saw Kyle Kinane, I guess it was a year ago, and he just had put out a special and he had already done like 25 minutes in the set and he goes, okay, I got one more. So I thought maybe he has another 15 minute thing, max, whatever. And then he does a 45 minute story.

Oh, God. That's wild. And it is now on a special and runs at 49 minutes. Wow. Yeah. It is huge. You're a nerd. Yeah, I think so.

You're like, it was 45 minutes. Now it's 49 minutes. Well, I just, I wrote a piece about it. So I'm like clocked it. And it's an absurd length, right? Yeah. I've never. And he's an absurd length, right? Yeah. I've never. And he's a great comic, by the way. He's a great comic, and he just is able to fill space and figure it out way, you know, like I talked to him on my podcast, and he's just unwilling to accept that what he did was great.

He's like, you know, I'm just going up there and adding stuff here and there. It's like, you know, most comedians aren't able to sustain attention for 49 minutes. Right. Like, you're able to do it and you put a lot of work into doing that as well but like you're like i don't know you know just going up there and i was like that's not what you're doing but right it's interesting because like one of the things that you talk about in the book is that the reviewer is on behalf of the reader right yeah and as opposed to on behalf of themselves

or on behalf of the intelligentsia of comedy, let's say. But yet, the economics of comedy right now run in direct contrast with who writers like you are writing about. So in other words, if you look at who, if you look at that poll star, it's Sebastian Maniscalco, it's Theo Vaughn, it's this person, it's, you know what I mean? And that is the popularity, the mass popularity of comedy.

And I feel like, is it possible that the intelligentsia of comedy, which you're a part of, is missing it right now with that stuff? I think we talk about it a lot, me and some of my coworkers. And it depends, right? It's like the biggest movies are Marvel movies or whatever, and movie critics tend to not write about those movies as much. It's not unusual for there to be this sort of divide. Right. And I've interviewed a lot of those people who are top Hallstarr number people. I interviewed Sebastian.

I interviewed Bert Kreischer. Sure, yeah. So, like, that is a way. I think it is somewhat hard to write about a comedian who continues to do a pretty good job in the same exact way they've always done it. Okay. And I think, on the other hand,

audiences, a lot of audiences, go to see a comedian because they want them to do a pretty good job of, like, recreating the thing they've seen them do before. And I think that creates a lot of audiences, go to see a comedian because they want them to do a pretty good job of recreating the thing they've seen them do before. Sure. And I think that creates a somewhat of divide. But I think, if anything, my job is to the audience who learns to like comedy because of X comedian. And it was like, I'm really into stand-up. Who are other stand-ups?

Yeah. Help them explain, help them understand the comedians they might not naturally understand at first, right? They might be so confused if they see Sebastian, who's so physical, and then they see someone like Jacqueline Novak, let's say, who's so wordy

and there's so much going on there. They might not have an entry point. So they listen to my podcast, or maybe I would write about it, and then hopefully they have more of a foothold. Right. That, that is the hope of what I'm doing. I don't know if like Sebastian needs anyone to help audiences understand the appeal of it. No, no. But I, that's interesting. You should say that because I, when you said that thing in the book, it made me think like, but are you nudging people intentionally towards things that are less popular as opposed to like, my mom doesn't know who Sebastian is, but the odds are

my mom might like Sebastian more than she'd like an alt comedian. I'm trying to think if I'm intentionally nudging, not in... Are you intentionally nudging people towards having better comedy tastes in your perception? Yes, I think I'm doing that. I think the idea that I am like, who are the comedians I like and I'm pushing, that's not directly my directive because I think there's quite popular comedians. Like I've written about Nate Bargetzi

and he's like as big as a comedian is right now. Yeah, wildly popular. And I think if anything, I hope to help distinguish people who are quite big who are doing something different or whatever. But I do think I'm trying to help refine people's taste. Right.

I gotcha. Yeah, that's fine. I think in the book I go like, Alright, that's a wrap, everybody. Because if the audience has better taste, they demand more from their comedians. Ultimately, you'll have an instinct for why you are drawn to a certain has better taste, they demand more from their comedians. Like, I'm not saying, like, ultimately, you'll have an instinct for why you are drawn to a certain comedian.

Right. And I'm not saying stop seeing that comedian. Right. I'm saying kind of demand more from them, especially if they're doing quite well.

And I think as you get bigger and bigger, it is harder for the audience to hold you accountable for being a little bit lazy. Right. I think all comedians,

once they have an audience, some people are going to hang out with that comedian. Right. And that's good. I think there's a lot of potential there, but it also can create a problem where the comedian thinks, like, well, I'm killing. This must be great material.

They backwards engineer that they're doing great, where I think they're not holding themselves to the scrutiny that I would hope they would to keep on doing better and better work. But then, like, when Shane hosted SNL, when Shane Gale hosted SNL, you sort of were very critical of it. You said he bombed. I think I was not reviewing his material,

but reviewing how he responded to the nature of his material. Because I think in that piece, I say, like, he tends to be better at this than he did at SNL. And I think he came off quite nervous. Oh, interesting. I think Shane's a better comedian than he was on SNL. Yeah. I think he came off as what it looks like when people haven't been on TV that much.

Do you think Shane's one of the best comedians in the world? One of the best? I'm trying to think of how many comedians in the world? One of the best? I'm trying to think of what, how many comedians I include to include Shane. Top 100? Yes. Interesting.

Top 50? Yes. Top 20? That I don't know. 50 I can take. That's a wrap. We're done here. I think his potential

is tremendous. He's a wildly charismatic person. And he's really on and really good. And there's parts of his, both his specials, and I'm like, this is as good as people are doing. I think he, as any comedian, as they keep on getting bigger, has the danger of an audience that is not holding him accountable.

Not in terms of ethics. In terms of just not resting on the perspective that they just want to see. Do you think critics, you're sometimes a critic, sometimes not a critic, etc., but do you think you and your fellow journalists of comedy are taking moral stances on comedians in ways that no one did on Richard Pryor, for example, Bill Hicks, countless other comedians in different generations.

I think there's a few things. One, there really weren't active comedy critics. Of course, yeah. But the example I say in the book is that the Eddie Murphy thing, people now be like, it's so hard to watch Eddie Murphy,

but it's a different time. It's like, at the time, people complained about Eddie Murphy doing those jokes. Sure. So it is a little bit of being like, well, now everyone's so moral. Right. It's just now the people with certain morality have more of a platform to talk about it.

I try not to do it because I don't think I'm good at it, me personally. I don't want to speak for other journalists or whatever. I think there are plenty of journalists that have a moralist nature to them. I'm just not good at it. I'm more like, I think I try to be more of a formalist and try to analyze why, you know, like the Dave Chappelle thing, right?

So that's probably the most fair example. I feel like the chapter where I talk about Dave Chappelle is not being like he shouldn't do this. It's immoral to talk about these things. That's not the perspective of that chapter. I'm saying that his reliance on shock comedy and hot-button issues has made it

so he's a lazier comedian than he was when he wasn't doing that as much. And I think Chappelle is so charismatic and so able to kind of get away with anything that his audience has misconstrued what he's doing as being sort of important or interesting when he just is inherently feels important and feels interesting

where I feel like if anything, so that's the line that I personally draw because I think that is my place in writing this book. Sure, I'm sure think that is my place in writing this book. Sure, I'm sure my morals and my perspective come through this book. Like the book is not – I'm not saying it's like a nonpartisan book. But like it's my book, you know. It's my book.

Like there's only so much you can do to remove yourself from the book. And at some point I was like, well, it is my book. Like, people should read it and be like, this is a person writing it. Well, it's so funny because Adam Gopnik said critical things about it in The New Yorker, which I like Adam. I like his writing. I like him personally. I disagree with his criticism of your book. His criticism of your book, and I'll boil it down, is you didn't cover the whole of

history of comedy, and you didn't cover Nichols and May and this and that and Checky Green and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, yeah, man, but the book literally states in the prologue, this is about 1990. This book is about 1991 through 2020. It's like, you can't criticize someone's book for not being the book you wanted to read. Yeah, I mean, the thing that I found so odd is that he made a list of the comedians I didn't mention. And those are just the comedians I didn't mention. I mentioned more comedians in this book than I think probably most people have ever known at any time. I know, There are more comedians in this book than I think probably most people have ever known at any time. Yeah.

And including, you know, Richard Pryor, Shelley Berman. Yeah. You know, like, there's comedians I reference of the past 70-whatever years. I just didn't reference Bob Hope. And so he clearly, because the second chapter is history, right? The second chapter is like, here's the entire history of American live comedy performance. Yeah. Condensed, because there are books American live comedy performance. Yeah. Condensed, because there are books that cover that part.

Yeah. And the original draft had it much longer. And readers were like, this is boring. Can you make it tighter? And I was like, yeah, I can make it tighter. Yeah. Otherwise, you're just making a list of every single person and what they did, which is a thing I have done.

I've done two lists of 100 jokes that shape modern comedy, which are my attempts at doing a sort of history. So did it hurt your feelings to have a critic criticize you? It not, I wasn't saddened by it. I was like annoyed because it did feel like an unfair criticism. And I didn't like the idea that people read The New Yorker and they think this is what the book is. And then I specifically didn't like the idea that Steve Martin would read the article

and think... And that you felt mischaracterized or misconstrued. I've had negative criticism that I like quite a bit. One of my favorite comments on the book was a negative review on Goodreads. It essentially said it had first book problems. And at first it was just nice that they thought of me as an author that will have books. It had first book problems. And at first it was just nice that they thought of me as an author that will have books.

It had first book problems. And essentially they said it was too much. There's too much in it. And I go, exactly. Exactly. I didn't realize that. I read that review, and it was actually around the same time I interviewed Jacqueline Novak on my podcast. And I saw her similar desire to be like, I want to maximize to the audience.

I want to give as much as I have. I have all of these things I've been storing up. And I'm going to try to figure out a way to make the book as readable as possible while including every single thing possible about me. Every, you know, both my sort of sense of humor and the nature of who I am as a writer and basically every single opinion I've had.

So when they said it's too much, I was like, exactly. Like it should, for the people who like the book, it should feel borderline overwhelming, but not. So for that to be the case, some people need to be like,

whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. But I didn't want to write that type of book. And that way the book is edgy at being nerdy. Yeah, I think so. We're like, whoa, this is provocative. Yeah, it's provocative. Too much information. We're like, whoa, this is provocative. Yeah, it's provocative. Too much information.

It's like, whoa, I did not. A shocking amount of knowledge. So that was like, this person gets me almost more than the people who just sort of like the book okay. That's great. I feel the same way about reviews. I had one review once where someone

in a very prominent publication said something about my work that was widely read that was just an ad hominem attack of my life. And I was kind of like loosely based on the show. Yeah. And I was just like, this hurts my feelings. Like, you just clearly don't like me. I do think that reflects one of the hard things about like reviewing standup, which is like, it's the person, right? It's not like, there's not tons,

there are people who work on it, but often you're reviewing this person and their personal ideas and they're expressing it. And, you know, if there's something even being like, when you're reviewing the, it's, there's like times where like, ah, this person is not charismatic as other comedians. Like to put that in a review

would be really hurtful of their opinion. That was a line from Sleepwalk with me where I go, it's painful as a comedian when you bomb because the audience is not just saying, we don't like your comedy. It's like, we don't like you as a person. Like, you know, your personality. Yeah, and that's hard, right?

And then it's like, you're sharing your ideas and you're like, oh, this person's really good at writing jokes, but they actually have like not interesting ideas, which is like, if you transfer that to like a painter, you can be like, wow, this still life is beautiful. Right. You don't, you can have that without having

to worry about their ideas because you can kind of just glance at it. Right, you don't go, Matisse seems like a dick. Yeah, he seems a great guy. But Picasso obviously was a dick. I have to defend Matisse at all times. Yes, that is the problem, but

it's a dicier area and I try as much as possible. Again, it's still a new field. There's only so many people doing some version of this. If anything, the goal of the book, which I think it put in, it was just like,

now hopefully more people could write books like this where they voice their opinion on this stuff. I have talked to people who like, who favorite comedians are the comedians I'm sort of more negative on the book. And he, it was a very useful conversation because he both disagreed with sort of my conclusions, but thought it was fair in sort of my perspective on it.

And that's fine. Like ultimately, like I hope people read it and have their own opinions. I don't want them to just ape my opinions. Like the hope is like make people better thinkers about comedy because I think that would improve the sort of general discourse. Yeah, and I like that that part of the book too

is that you point out that it's made you a better consumer of comedy, writing about it and analyzing it and made your ears more open and your eyes more open to different types of comedy inside of it. As a critic, you've covered me for years, which is why this whole interview is a wild conflict of interest.

But what would be your criticism of me? And would you be reluctant to criticize me now because we know each other and have worked together on this documentary, et cetera? In terms of if you were put on a show and I thought the show was bad, would I write a negative review? I mean, again, I'm not put in the position to do that.

I think... Because you're not a critic on staff. You're a writer at large. Yes, I'm a senior. I just kind of learned my job titles. I think senior writer or something like that.

Senior writer at Vulture, New York Magazine. Yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, like it would be harder for me to write like a regular pan because I know so much more about where you're coming from

than if I were to come in cold. I think if I had a piece that I thought was interesting to write about why you're bad, I would consider writing about it. If you did something that I thought was less. That's the thing about in terms of how I approach the idea of, like, writing criticism about comedy at all is that it's more about like, because there's so many specials now

and so many people just want to know that they exist. We're still at the point where people don't know they exist. We're not at the point where everyone knows the big movies that are coming out, the big TV shows. That I think a lot more of my work is sort of contextualizing and explaining what things are.

It's why the bigger comedians, it's fair, I think, for them to get criticism because they are bigger and everyone knows. Everyone's like going to the Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle special. Right. So if you did something lesser, for whatever reason, it's hard to know. I mean, I have to imagine what your worst hour would be.

Right. I would have to figure out what is the angle and what is the point I'm trying to make by doing this. Right. What's your overall criticism of me in the last decade? Like, where my comedy is lesser than what it strives to be? Oh, here's a question I was going to ask you. And I feel like when I first saw the new one, you cried at the end.

Oh, my God. Jesus. Yeah, that makes sense. And it was really powerful. It is a thing I think about almost every single day. You cry at the end where you say through the baby's eyes or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And truly, I think about it as a new father. I think about it all the time. Yeah.

On the Netflix special, it's kind of like a little light joke at the end. Same line. I get choked up, actually. I've seen the footage really tight. But it's not as intense. Yeah, yeah. Early on, it's raw. Yeah.

And I do, and this is more of a question I would ask than like a, you need to be raw, right? It's just a question of like, is there a thing that you lose in the performance? Or is there something that an audience would gain from being a more raw version of it? Yeah, I think that that's fair. And I think it's something I'm confronting right now because I've been talking recently about my relationship with my dad. His health has been failing. And I've had moments where I've cried on stage recently. And that will probably fall away over time.

And I'm never going to contrive that. Yeah. That would be insane. To me, that would be sociopathic is if you contrived a fake crying situation. But, yeah, I get that as a note though, is essentially how do you bring that emotion to the next stage of the show? That's a good note.

It is a thing that, because I think there's so much gained in what you do and how you do it, right? Like I think when you see one person's shows or ours in general that people don't put as much time in as you, there just isn't a, it doesn't all feel as intentional and you don't feel as sort of like you're following the story and you feel comfortable.

And you don't feel as if it's a whole piece in the same way and as a result you don't impact in the same way as they do when people watch your shows. Yeah. But it is a thing of like you don't impact in the same way as they do when people watch your shows. Yeah. But it is a thing of like, you don't get the other thing that's sort of the vulnerability that a comedian can get from just like, here it is. I'm not going to present it to you so raw that it's like somewhat dangerous. But I do wonder if there's a, that's just a question. I don't know.

Well, Gerard did a great job of capturing it in a moment. So with Rothaniel, he filmed it basically on 30 performances. And as opposed to me, I work on these things for two, three years. And he was opening up about a thing that was deeply personal to him. I can say this because people who listen to this podcast probably know. He essentially came out of the closet in the special in real time publicly. No, he essentially came out of the closet in the special in real time publicly. And I had a thing recently where I went back to Walla Walla where I jumped through a second story window sleepwalking 20 years ago.

And I filmed a lot of footage of me performing and was pretty emotional actually. Yeah. I'll be interested to see when that comes out what you think of it. Terrible. Well, no, it's precisely the thing you're're actually saying which is where's the gerard of it all where's the where's the rawness of he hasn't done this a thousand times like i'm only going to walla walla once yeah twice first for the jump second for the recap but like but it is that um it's interesting like i i find the discussion of the chris rock stuff enthralling because i similarly am fascinated by chris rock's process

i've watched him at the cellar probably 30 40 times where he's doing the thing you would describe in the book which is he takes away the chris rock affect that's so famous the chris rock voice that's so famous and he just goes goes, what else, what else? And he like literally reads from a note card and you hear him do the material without an effect and it's quite remarkable. Well, especially if you only know of him as the person who kills harder than anyone has ever done, right?

If you know what bigger and blacker looks like, right? The hardest anyone's I think ever killed in a special is bigger and blacker. Unbelievable, the hardest anyone's, I think, ever killed in a special is bigger and blacker. Unbelievable. And then you just see a person bomb harder than you could ever imagine doing it. Yeah. Because even if a joke is good,

he's stepping on laughs, right? It's like wild. It's wild. And he just will do it for, the one I write in the book, he did for a full hour. After a full, you know, it was the end of a show, he goes on a night train, which was at Littlefield, and he just did for a full hour. After a full, you know, it was the end of a show. He goes on a night train, which was at Littlefield

and he just for a full hour. Yeah. Code on. On the next show, yeah. Yeah. No, his code on. Yeah, you said he had his puffy code on. So what you acknowledge in that section

is that standup comedy is one of the only art forms where the art form process is taking place with an audience. Yeah. Which is why I got frustrated when you reviewed Mulaney in process. Sure. Because he pretty explicitly was like, hey, don't review this. So you want me to defend that I did that? I wonder if you would.

Or just be silent. Sure, I'll be silent. I was defensive of him both as a friend and as a comedian. Sure. I debated it. I didn't go into it planning on it. I trusted the judgment also of people around me who I think have a clear sense of, like,

what is journalistically appropriate, right? Like because there is – comedy is new in this sort of way where it's sort of like – I think if I remember correctly, Jason Zaneman is like he tries – you know, he tends to review people when they're doing big shows or whatever or if they're in New York or something like that, then that counts as a big show. He tends to review people when they're doing big shows or whatever, or if they're in New York or something like that, then it counts as a big show. But I think the main thing I thought about when I wrote it is I don't know who else was there. I don't know who's going to night two or night three of those shows, what they're going to write just pulling,

you know, they're just going to be like, they're going to be more likely to be like a tabloid, more of a tabloid angle, right? This is what he said about this part, about this. You know, it's just a factual. This is what he said about the divorce. This is what he said about his addiction, et cetera. And I found myself there with an opportunity to help.

And if anything, like I do think it's maybe even immoral or like journalistically complicated because I was trying to be of use in some ways. Like I did think I wanted to contextualize people as they see more of these shows. Because I think people had a certain expectation for John because he's John, right? You know, he not only has his fans, but I think he's just always been so good. If you've ever seen John ever, he's just always so good. And I think there's a sort of burden. I think I wrote about that predicament that one would be in. And I think I was trying to help people understand what this thing is.

Yeah. More so than say if this thing is good or bad. I'd have to go back and read it. I mean, I redid part of it for the book because I think at a larger point even in the book and whatever. But I think that was sort of my justification for doing it. I don't think you are going to do that very often with a comedian. Like there is ultimately a news value to this.

This has been deemed news that John was doing this. Same thing, like, you know, when Chris Rock's first show is back, after the slap, like, people went to those first shows and just wrote what he said. So I think that is sort of my justification for it. I really am proud of it as a piece of writing. I think the response I got from it, I feel has helped me come to terms justifying doing it

in so much as that it really, people really liked it. And in a way that was like, I think they found it. How would I put it? I think there were people were worried about John. I think they read that and they would I put it? I think people were worried about John. I think they read that and they felt a little bit more understanding. And I think that helped people understand what the shows they were going to go see are. I know reading on Reddit, people that were talking about, like, oh, this is kind of what to expect.

Don't go in wanting X, Y, and Z. And I think that's what I'm saying. I'm writing for the audience in that regard. Because I do think if they're going in in a more salacious angle, I don't think that's for the best of stand-up. I think some people in the comedy community, I think myself included,

find it to be one of the more craven journalistic choices in comedy writing in the last 20 years. That piece. Yeah. It's interesting. I've got other responses from people in comedy who like the 20 years. That piece. Yeah. It's interesting. I've got other responses from people in comedy who like the piece. Name names.

I don't remember. It was a while ago. I think that is unfair to what the piece was. And then ignoring what then happened the days afterwards. There's other articles that came out that day. Other people were at that first show. I believe Rolling Stone or someone wrote about it. And it was what would happen if there was no,

it was just sort of, here's the things he said, here's an account for it, here's the information that he talks about in it. And I think mine was an attempt to try to keep it in the perspective of someone working on something and trying to understand it. But I understand. I mean, like, if comedians really, I don't know.

Do you feel like there's many comedians that have held it against me? You still talk to me. You did the documentary. Oh, yeah. I don't hold it against you other than that i clocked it as uh something that that that made me concerned about what i would say on stage in the confines of 200 people in an audience which i think is a concern for comedians is okay if people can write about this,

well, maybe I won't say the most candid version of this. Yes. You know, even there was a joke that I made on a show that you booked that was a benefit that Padma Lakshmi had recently at the Bell House, which was a super fun show, where I had just come back from visiting my dad who had struggled with his

health. And, and I made some jokes that were wild and like, I, and someone tried, was filming it. Yeah. And, and I was like, oh, actually don't film, you know? And I, and I said to them, I go, this is, this is for this group of people, you know? And that's special. And that's what's cool about all of us being here in the room at the same time. And I'm just very protective of that. Yeah, I think there is, it's interesting because it is a complaint, that sort of, especially the filming, it is a complaint that specifically the biggest comedians of the world have complained about like 10 years ago, right?

Yeah, yeah. Like Kevin Hart, Chris Rock. Yeah, yeah. Especially, we were like, and... Pouches, people putting phones in pouches, et cetera. And you sort of didn't believe it when they were complaining about it. You're like, how can this be a problem? Yeah.

And I do think as generations go on and people have less of... Where their phones are more connected to them and their understanding of what the experience is, is even more and more about filming it. It just become more normalized and they wouldn't know the difference. I do think or hope that my piece is, if anything is on the same side as the people who are against the filming of things. In so much as, like, I don't think the audience knew. Right?

I was at that show. There's audience members there who did not know how to behave. And in many ways, I think if I remember in the piece, I call out the people's bad behavior. Okay. And I think it's because there are people who, yeah, there are people in the audience who kind of cheered on his drug use. And I do think I was like, okay, we need to sort of, it goes back to like a better informed audience of what is happening in the process.

Like where he is in the process, right? Like I do think part of the piece is just telling people what this is. So they know how to engage in it and know that they shouldn't be filming it. I didn't write at the top, don't film it. But that, because it's like the thing that you said, to not film you're working on something. It's something I know.

When did I learn that? How did I learn that? Well, I'm a freaking giant nerd. I've listened to every single comedy podcast like 12 years ago and heard a million comedians say that. Not everyone's doing that. You know, they haven't listened to every single comedy podcast like 12 years ago and heard a million comedians say that. Not everyone's doing that. You know, they haven't listened to it.

If anything, they're not going back 12 years to listen to early episodes of You Made It Weird where that was talked about a bunch, let's say. So they'll get this information where they get it and possibly that me writing about it will have them take this early stage more seriously. Yeah. Maybe. And maybe not. I don't think I normalized writing about it will have them take this early stage more seriously. Yeah. Maybe. And maybe not.

I don't think I normalized writing about it because it was news. I think ultimately the biggest comedians in the world, almost anything, like Pete Davidson, right? When Pete Davidson does anything, there's people who write about it. In stand-up shows. It's terrible. He locks up his phones, people still get around it.

Right, right. It really sucks. Being really famous is not helpful really for your comedy in a lot of ways. There are some ways it is helpful because you can counter a public image one has in yourself, which is like Richard Pryor's probably a great example.

But like, yeah, it's really hard. Like, I can understand not liking that it happened. I can understand being like, this is raw and someone's writing about it. Like, I can understand not liking that it happened. I can understand being like, this is raw and someone's writing about it. Like, I obviously care about the writing process.

I know it's a sensitive space. That's part of like, as we, when we made the documentary about you, I knew it was asking a lot because I do think the creative process

is a sensitive space. And if anything, I was hoping to capture that it is a sensitive space. No, and that's what, that was why I was, I put a lot,

yeah, I put a lot of faith in you and Eddie Schmidt and Seth Meyers and the whole team that made that documentary because I was very self-conscious. Even I was nervous watching back what it would be. I sent this on Seth Meyers'

show the other day, but it's like, you guys could have done a super cut of me eating fries. I guess that's what Mike Perbicco is all about, just eating fries. He's always eating fries. Because that's the control you have as the editor of someone else, which I'm usually the editor of myself. Yeah, I mean, I think we, in some ways, I think it might have helped that I also had so much more control over when I do the podcast. I come with questions, and I also go through the edit and what is essentially edited in the episodes for the things that I say to edit, right? Yeah.

But I, though I am a producer on the thing, I was not holding the cameras. I wasn't necessarily telling people where to shoot. I did do a lot of the interviews, but there were parts that I didn't. And, you know, I was like, what is the tone of this thing going to be? So I do think there was a, I think it helped

that we're like, we're all going to figure out what this thing is. We don't have control over it. Ultimately, I did realize that the best parts, a lot of the best parts are things that could not be controlled or this feeling of not being controlled or when you let it slip or whatever.

I mean, there is things also I saw in that that I think was really interesting in terms of when thinking about you as a comedian. Because there's one show where you're so loose, looser than I've ever seen you. Yeah. Because we shot so much. Nine shows.

It was so much. And there was one where you're so loose. And I was like, and it's beautiful, but I was like, oh, I wish more people could see this.

Yeah. I mean, that's, it's funny you should say that. That's one of the things Mulaney always says to me is that he wishes that I filmed myself doing just an hour of stand-up with no narrative arc

because I think he says people don't realize sometimes that I do that too. Yeah. And there's that aspect gets into all your shows, but it's very deliberately used. And again, it's great and artful, but it is just sort of like, it's the deliberately used. And I think, and again, it's great and artful, but it is just sort of like, it's the hard thing with almost all specials.

The thing is like, the thing that you're able to do there is almost, it's so hard to film for anybody. Yeah. Which is this feeling of, it all makes sense because we're all playing together. Like it feels the most of like what it feels like when standup is like improv. Well, let me pick that apart.

So you're saying I seem looser. Yeah. Can you have a specific example of anything I said or did where you're like, oh, that would be cool if he transplanted that energy into the final version? No, I wish I could. Oh, that's okay.

No, there just was... Because I've been trying for years to figure out how to... My wife, Jenny, calls these shows that you're talking about where I'm being loose, the Working It Out shows, as she calls them affectionately the Jim Morrison shows, where it just doesn't feel like there's any rules. Yeah. It's just riffing and being dumber than I think you normally are. Yeah. dumber than I think you normally are. Yeah. And there's something about not good jokes. Yes.

That if done well and if the audience knows that you are able to do good jokes, is a beautiful thing. And it's more like how people talk to each other. It's like human beings don't have perfectly crafted jokes. Well, it's the great inside joke of stand-up comedy, which you talk about also. This idea of, as an audience, we're all in on the inside joke of stand-up comedy, which you talk about also. This idea of, as an audience, we're all in on the inside joke

of the comedian that the comedian's creating. The Sandler thing really interested me because you were like, I love Sandler. Yeah. And you're like, critics didn't get it. You know, this movie was 30% on Rotten Tomatoes. This movie was 20%. Jack and Jill was 10%, whatever. Sure, yeah.

And I agree with you. I think Sandler is like one of the crown jewels of comedy who has been underestimated for years and years and years. And critics have really missed it. And award shows have really missed it. Who do you think it's possible we're missing it with right now? That's a great question. Oh, it's actually quite obvious.

Kevin Hart. Oh, Kevin Hart's hilarious. I agree. The amount of times a thing like, Kevin Hart is not funny trends on Twitter or something like that is remarkable to me. There was a Washington Post article

about how Kevin Hart's not funny when he won the Mark Twain Prize. I didn't read the article because it was just like, Kevin Hart's not funny when he won the Mark Twain Prize. I didn't read the article because it was just like, Kevin Hart's not funny. And I was like, I've read this type of article about whoever before. And I do think, one, for that person, part of the issue is by the time mainstream white people learned who Kevin Hart was, he already had proven himself quite a bit in terms of his stand-up specials and whatever. So by the time they heard about him, he was already making huge blockbuster comedies, which are not what critics tend to like. And I think he is so big

that you forget that ultimately he's very good at the job of it. He's very funny. He is trying his heart to do interesting material. I think a comedian of his size, which is as big as a comedian has ever been, really could phone it in and still do it. And I think he's trying as hard as not to.

He wakes up at 4 a.m. and he does calisthenics. And he has people help with his material, but ultimately it's not going to be like when he's first breaking through. There's an urgency to that. And he had more personal stories then because those were the stories of his childhood. And he used them up.

But, like, I think he's good. And I think we'll look back. And I think people will be like, oh, he kind of maybe underrated this person. Despite, again, he's doing quite well. But the same thing happened with Adam, right? Where it's like he was so, so big. It was easy to be like, he sucks. Because who else are you going to say he sucks?

Who do you think's the next, who could be the next person who is that? Because people always say to me, and I'm sure they say this to you with your podcast, people always say, thanks for introducing me to Maddie Wiener, for example. Thanks for introducing me to Joe Firestone or whoever it is. And it's like, who do you think that might be?

It's like trying to think of the exact level of person. Who do you have that with with even just your podcast where people's feedback is i didn't know about this person i mean i remember introducing people to matt and bowen matt matt rogers and bowen before the bone was on snl and then matt has gone to you discovered them i discovered matt and bowen yeah yeah yeah i get all the i helped usher what would be their guaranteed success same thing with

Catherine Cohen when I had her on I mean Jay Jordan I think is is going to find quite an audience for himself Brittany Carney

very excited to see where Rosebud Baker goes who are comedians I remember when I saw Taylor Tomlinson I was like well you'll play stadiums if you want to play. Oh my God.

Yeah. Same immediately. Just like, well, this person is just like a joke, joke writer extraordinaire. Yeah. And,

and, and it just sort of like you young, you tap into a thing young people have that you just can't. Yeah. You can't fake. You can't fake that. What are your pet peeves of comedians that drive you crazy? Number one is attacking the audience for not laughing at a joke.

I hate it. I hate it. It's very frustrating because they're giving you information that is useful. So it's like, why would you be like that? The audience is giving you information that's useful, which is, we think this is funny or we don't think it is. Yeah. So why would you, so don't be mad at them.

Here's where I think this comes from. Yeah. And I think I've done it over the years. I hate it when I do it. But I think it comes from a combined insecurity of, I'm exposing myself, I'm revealing how I feel about this thing, and insecurity of I'm exposing myself. I'm revealing how I feel about this thing. And the audience is like, nope.

And that hurts. And so you want the knee-jerk defensiveness comes in. And then you verbalize it because you have a microphone sometimes. And it's not fun. I also think like bombing and starting is so hard that it is probably traumatic to some people. And the way people process that is to build an armor around themselves.

Yeah. So they go into shows defensively and I just don't like that energy. Like, obviously, some great comedy can come out of that, right? It's like, you're cornered and as a result,

you have to think of something funny to say and then your brain comes up with something you might not think otherwise. Yeah. But I do think it also results in a sort of knee jerk. They didn't laugh, they're wrong.

There's like a famous, maybe apocryphal line from Colin Quinn, which is, you know you're a real comedian when you're killing and you still hate the audience. Which I don't agree with,

but I think it's a hilarious, like, encapsulation of like a certain type of, yeah, worldview. But I want to say like, this brings up a larger question for me about the nature of provocateurs.

Sure. Because often I will say, people will be surprised. It's like, who are your favorite comedians? And I'll go, Doug Stanhope and Maria Bamford. And they'll be like, what? Those two people are of a certain DNA. I actually think Maria and Doug, though they talk about completely different things, are of the certain DNA. I actually think Maria and Doug, though they talk about completely different things,

are of the same DNA. And that DNA is, Strav and this is going to be wild. Like when you watch Maria Bamford live, there's nothing like it in the world. When you watch Doug Stanhope live, there's nothing like it in the world. Either of them,

I don't agree with this view, this view, this view, this view. I could go one by one. Is it possible to be a provocateur in this era as a comedian, that to be your genre, and have critical acceptance? It's interesting because I think it's a question of what are you provoking and what do you do with those provocations? I think all these sort of questions that are in this space, it's a question of like, what do you mean by possible, right? So it's like, let's say you're like Dave Chappelle, well, he's a provocateur, but he can't do that now, except for he can, he's doing quite well or Bill Maher or whatever, right? These people are the most successful comedians working. But I think, you know, you're saying in terms of critical.

I think there is a lot of people who just ultimately, their value system does not think that is the most valuable thing a comedian can do. Like, for example, I talked to Rami on my podcast recently about, and he was saying essentially, like, we don't really need Bill Hicks and George Carlin anymore. To begin with being provocative. That was at a time where there weren't

spaces for people to be provocative. And now there are spaces for people to be provocative. And I think that gets at a larger question of, at a time when there's so much content, what is the role of the comedian? And that's the same thing I write about in the book in terms of being getting laughs. of at a time where there's so much content, what is the role of the comedian? Right?

And that's the same thing as I write about in the book in terms of being, getting laughs. Right? Is the comedian's number one job to be the purveyor of laughs in society?

It's like, well, if so, there are other purveyors of laughs right now that people seemingly approve, which is staying at home and looking at their phone

and laughing at the dumb stuff they like on their phone. Yeah. Which sucks, right? Yeah. I don't think that's better, but it is the truth. So the comedian probably needs to be doing something more. Right. It has to be, well, it certainly has to be funny. And it certainly has to be something that you take away something more than you came in with, which is, Andrew Schultz said this to me recently. It was really interesting.

He goes, we're living in hot take culture right now. So in some ways, by telling personal stories, it's kind of like all you can do because everything's a take. Yeah, and I think there are, I'm fine saying Dave Chappelle's name. He doesn't know I exist, so it's fine. But I think Dave Chappelle is, the problem with almost all of this was that he, like, what matters to Dave Chappelle? Like, I feel like we're losing the sense of who he is as a person.

And sometimes this stuff, these provocations feel like guards and ways to distract. It's a magician being like, look over here and don't look over here. the magician being like, look over here and don't look over here. This has been a fascinating conversation. Your book is great. Thank you. Congratulations. I mean, I've known you for a lot of years, and I was so happy for you that you wrote this fantastically thorough book and thoughtful book.

Oh, thank you. And even though I disagree with some of your choices over the years, I do appreciate you as a writer. And thanks for writing this book. And we always close with working out for a cause. Is there an organization you like to contribute to? Yes. National Network of Abortion Funds, which is the- The same organization we were raising money for with Padma Malakshmi.

And it's... They just pay for abortions. They help people who are trying to get abortions in terms of other things that's very funding and logistics and stuff like that. Great.

We're going to contribute to them. We are going to link to them in the show notes, encourage people to contribute as well. Thank you, Jesse Fox. Thank you for having me. We're working it out because it's not done. We're working it out people to contribute as well. Thank you, Jesse Fox. Thank you for having me. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out.

You can follow Jesse David Fox on Instagram at jessedavidfox. You can read his writing at Vulture. He has many, many articles that I think are extraordinarily well-written. His book is called Comedy Book at your local bookstore. His podcast is called Good One, and the Good One documentary is streaming on Peacock. Go to berbiglias.com

to sign up for the mailing list. You can watch the full video of this one on my YouTube channel, at Mike Berbiglia. You know, we've got a whole bunch of episodes, and basically all the episodes since June. So almost exactly a year of YouTube episodes. So check those out.

They're really, really good. Our producers of Working Out or Myself, along with Peter Salamone, Joseph Birbiglia, and Mabel Lewis, associate producer Gary Simons, sound mix by Shubh Saran, supervising engineer Kate Belinsky, special thanks to Jack Andinoff

and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J-Hope Stein. Special thanks, as always, to my daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. And, of course, thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy this show, rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. We're approaching

4,000 reviews on there. I thought that was really exciting. This is a little project. As some of you know, that we started in June 2020, and we have almost 150 episodes now available for you free, no paywall. You can go back. You can listen to Ben Stiller, Rosebud Baker, John Green. That was a good one. Chris Redd was a

good one. Check out our back catalog. Comment on Apple Podcasts which one is your favorite so people know where to start. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. So let's say you're at your local bookstore and you see the last copy of Comedy Book by Jesse David Fox and you reach to grab it and someone else grabs for it. And all of a sudden you're arguing with this person. You're fighting. Give it to me. Give it to me. Give it to me. Here's what you do to sort of bring the temperature down. You go, hey, you could read that book or I could take the book and you could listen to a podcast where comedians work out ideas with other comedians and creatives. It's called working it out.

And the person would be like, I'm Jesse David Fox. I already know about working it out. And it'd be like, I'm so sorry. And it'll be relatively resolved. Thanks for listening, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.