Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - The Wisdom of Chicago Improv with Liz Allen

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

Chicago improv performer and teacher Liz Allen taught a workshop for Mike’s college improv group almost 25 years ago. Since then, Mike and Liz have found numerous ways to reunite and collaborate, most notably on Mike’s film Don’t Think Twice. Now Mike sits down for an in-depth chat with one of his favorite improvisers about the unique roots of Chicago improv, Liz’s (in)famous teacher Del Close, and the one-in-a-million coincidence that connected Liz and Gillian Jacobs.Please consider donating to Stepping Stones NetworkCheck out https://www.lizallenimprov.com for more info about improv coaching by Liz

So what do you think is the biggest misconception about improv as an art form? Well, is that you have to be funny. You don't. You have to be real and allow the funny will emerge if it's supposed to from the circumstance of people being honest, because usually people drawn to improv have a lot to say about the world. say about the world. So they're going to be offering a lot of material that can evolve into something funny. And then the second misconception is that you have to be an extrovert to improvise and that you have to be an extrovert. The best improvisers in the world are introverts who are quiet and observe and take in the world. That is the voice of the great Liz Allen. Liz is a renowned Chicago improviser and teacher, one of my favorite people and improvisers in the world. This is an episode I could not have anticipated occurring

many, many years ago because Liz taught me an improv workshop all the way from Chicago to Washington, D.C. when I was in college. She and Sharna Halpern and other folks from a group called Frank Booth at ImprovOlympic taught a workshop with my college improv group. And so I've known her for a long time. And then I reconnected with her in 2015 when I was making the movie Don't Think Twice. And I asked her if she would coach

the fictional group of myself and Keegan-Michael Key, Gillian Jacobs, Chris Gethard, Kate Micucci, and Tammy Sager. And she was incredible. Like, I could not recommend her more highly as an improviser or as a teacher of improv. I've recommended her to a ton of people as an improv coach, improv teacher, even on Zoom. So if that's

something that interests you, go on her website, lizallenimprov.com. I love this chat. We talk about improv. We talk about Chicago. This coincides with my performances in Chicago at the Chicago Theater. Next week, I will be there for three performances. It's the first time I've ever done three shows at the Chicago Theater. I'm so thrilled. One of the great architectural marvels of the world, the Chicago Theater. Just an incredible theater. I'm so excited for these shows.

One next Friday night, two on Saturday night. Tickets are still available for the late show on Saturday. All of that is on burbiggs.com. This tour has been so much fun. I was just in Tulsa and Texas. I've just added New Fall Cities, San Francisco, Oakland, Philadelphia, Minneapolis, Madison, Milwaukee, Champaign, Illinois, Indianapolis, Ann Arbor, Detroit, Dayton, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Nashville,

Knoxville, Asheville, and Charleston. Also, don't forget, I just added another show in Toronto, another show in Washington, D.C., and another show in Westport, Connecticut at the Westport Country Playhouse. We added a second show. Gorgeous, gorgeous theater. I love this episode with Liz Allen. We talk about improv and Chicago. We talk about Del Close. We talk about teaching improv to

Gillian Jacobs for a movie role in Don't Think Twice. I love this chat. Enjoy my conversation with the great Liz Allen. Liz Allen, ladies and gentlemen. Hi. Liz Allen. I view you as the person who understands improv best in a way that I enjoy improv the most when I see it and do it. And I'm not by any stretch of the word, even though I made an improv-themed movie, an expert in improv. So what I'm going to ask you to do,

will you explain how you got into improv and what is your sort of approach to improv? Okay, great. Thanks for having me here, by the way. And that's a lovely, that's a lovely compliment. I really appreciate that very much. I got into improv accidentally. I'd moved to Chicago just for the summer of 1990. Someone suggested that I was funny at work and during my day job. And they said, have you ever, you should go see a show at Second City.

And I literally said, what's Second City? I had no idea. So I go, I see a show. I'm so intrigued with the improv. And I'm dubious about it. I asked myself, is this, do they really mean they're making it up? So at the end, when they do the classic thing, if you're interested, sign up for classes. So I signed up for classes. And, you know, I just got bit real hard by the ensemble-ness of it, by the idea that people truly can work together

to create something beautiful that's never been created before and we'll never see it again. And it slowly consumed me and took over my life over the last 30 years. But it probably took like five years to really completely take me over. The improv that I like is, I always say, I like improv that's accompanied by a cello where maybe people are crying. Because I like a real scene that's based on a real relationship that reflects, you know, just something very grounded and relatable.

It doesn't have to be humans. Like, I don't mind a real scene between magic markers. If it's a real believable moment between two or more entities, that's what I find really intriguing. And then the kind of improv I like is improv that builds momentum and begins to collide ideas in an absurd and unexpected way. So we start really grounded and then it kind of goes crazy. And then we begin really stretching the possibilities of the things we created. I really relate to that. I think the reason why I'm so sort of drawn to improv and I feel lucky that I learned it when I was in college and then when you and Sharna and the

rest of Frank Booth came to visit Georgetown is that it has just sort of almost like a looseness artistic principle where like it can go anywhere. And I feel like that applies to so many things like, you know, it applies to writing, it applies to directing, acting, like really any kind of art form or any kind of activity, really. Yeah, it does not have to be people on a Friday night creating theatrical improv. What year did you start doing improv in Chicago? Was it Del Close era? Yeah, 1992. And what's interesting is I started at Second City Rolling Meadows, which is a now defunct theater that they had out in the suburbs. And I was living in the suburbs of Chicago and it was a Second City show that I saw. And I met Bob Dassey, Jay Succo, Judy Fabdance,

all of these people that became my contemporaries. I met them in the level one group. And then it was a stage manager out there that said, you know, if you two or your group really likes improv, you should go to this place called ImprovOlympic. So we used to meet at a mall in Schaumburg and carpool in for our classes at ImprovOlympic. And I had three levels. I had Sharna, Myles Stroth, and Dell. That was it. The training center was three levels, 1992. That was IO. So Dell was the highest level. That was it. And you didn't have any other options. We didn't have, there were no workshops.

You know, you just, so I just kept taking his class. I took his class three times over because I didn't connect with him personally. You know, no judgment. I'm not a drug user. And so I didn't really go to parties. But creatively, like I still have his notebooks and his notes because he would explain to us about the power of group, group discovery, what a team can really do when they work together. And then I would watch his team called The Family, and I would see the applications of his lessons. And I was,

I was just so hooked in this idea that if everybody really supports everybody, it's limitless. What can happen? Was he really big into drugs was he a big heavy drug user i mean that's the reputation that i hear and i will say his you know his arms were just they were covered with track marks oh wow yeah it's super sad oh gosh yeah it's super sad super sad it's it's heartbreaking and but i mean and he has this you know you know he's fallen out of favor he's someone that's very much uh the kids don't like to talk about him anymore. My students. Oh, is that true?

And why is that? Because I haven't heard that. Yeah, I think because he's considered a horrible misogynist, and he's got a reputation for being kind of a jerk. And, you know, all that might be true, but he still offered some creative insights for me. The other thing is, you know, boy, how dark and terrible and depressing can I be right away? But you know, my mother was a drug addict.

My mother was an alcoholic. She had great things to offer me. She just had a problem with addiction. And so that was never a stopper for me. And also in terms of misogyny, you know, I come from a totally different background that isn't theater, that's engineering, that's really misogynist. Like, you want to meet misogynists, go work at Raytheon. Like, the improv theater

world is so open to me. And so maybe I have a skewed view. I don't know, Mike. I've thought about this a lot, about he didn't offend me. Maybe he, I mean, but I also didn't ask anything of him except to be a teacher. I didn't need to socialize. I just need to show up for three hours, learn, and leave. Do you remember any piece of wisdom that you still use today? Yeah, I have this image of him saying something along the lines of, listen to what your friend just said, like a command. Listen. I love that.

Yeah, just very matter of fact, you know, he was often shuffling in the back of the room and I thought, does he even know what's happening up here? And then he would just look up and say, did you pay attention to what was just said? I mean, that's it, right? Gotta listen. Yeah. To me, that's like, for me, the main takeaway from studying improv when I was in college is that there's much more to be gained from listening than talking. Yeah. And I mean, it's so hard to not insert the joke right now. What was that? No, I mean, that's it. I didn't, I don't think I knew how to listen until I took an improv class. I'm sure I didn't. I had no idea. I had no idea what the whole world was doing until

I took an improv class. So what do you think is the biggest misconception about improv as an art form? Well, is that you have to be funny. You don't. You have to be real and allow the funny will emerge if it's supposed to from the circumstance of people being honest, because usually people drawn to improv have a lot to say about the world. So they're going to be offering a lot of material that can evolve into something funny. And then the second misconception is that you have to be an extrovert to improvise and that you have to be an extrovert. The best improvisers in the world are introverts who are quiet and observe and take in the world. You don't have to be an extrovert. What about you? What do you think the misconceptions are?

I think that the misconceptions are sometimes having to do with the expectation of what an improv show should be. Sure. You know, so in other words, like, a lot of times when I, you know, when I used to go to the UCB in New York, what would be most interesting to me would be seeing a show where there's one scene. Seth Meyers was on the podcast recently and he was talking about how on SNL every week, there's a few great sketches, there's a few terrible sketches, and there's a few okay sketches.

And that's the nature of Saturday Night Live. And I think with improv, it's like, there's going to be some great scenes and there's going to be some great scenes and there's going to be some bad scenes and there's going to be some okay scenes. And I think that what, if you want to enjoy improv as a performance art form, you have to be open to the idea that it's, it is flawed, that the flaws are the beauty of the form. Yes, absolutely. I agree. What's the most magical moment you can recall either being in an improv show or rehearsal

or seeing an improv show or rehearsal? Well, that's a great question because, you know, I used to try to keep track of, you know, like my top 10 shows or scenes. And now I'm so lucky because I feel like it's so many moments that it's too much to keep track of. But things come to mind as a matter of fact. The scene that you and Keegan did, Don't Think Twice, rehearsal, the dog talking to the owner, the dog going to the vet and dying.

That scene still, I can picture everything in the ballroom with you and Keegan and just very poignant sweet again that could be accompanied by a cello uh the just to give context this is Keegan Michael Key and um it was myself it was a it was a fake improv group that Liz coached it was the commune it was in the movie Don't Think Twice, Kate Micucci, Gillian Jacobs, Chris Gethard, Tammy Sager, Keegan, Michael Key, and myself being an improv group where you taught us. And yeah, I actually really, I remember that scene too.

And Keegan remembers it too sometimes we talk about it. It's very sweet. I think I was the dog and he was the owner and he was maybe putting me down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were going to the, yeah, last ride to the vet. Yeah, last ride to the vet. And it was just very sad. And I think we were both pretty choked up in the scene.

Yeah, definitely. And I actually just had an experience that goes, it went deep in my heart and I'll never forget it. I just taught a workshop in London and at 11 o'clock in the morning, this group did a long form and they allowed me to sort of massage it a little and push it in some directions. And just so that from the outside, I'm able to see some connections and see some opportunities. And they said yes to each other so beautifully. They said yes to me so beautifully. And they ended up making a statement about AI taking over humans. And at the very end of the show, it was the power-up bar of like 10% to 30%, up to 100% when the show became taken over by artificial intelligence.

But the way it was discovered across an hour and it was so natural and the unfolding was, oh, Mike, I was crying. It was beautiful. It was just beautiful. It was a group It was just beautiful. It was a group making a statement about what's on their mind. Yeah. I think that's the thing that improv has going for it that I think it has over playwriting,

filmmaking, et cetera. Playwriting takes a few years to get a play put up., it's probably three to five to 10 years to get a movie up. So by the time the thing makes it to the universe, it may be less relevant than it was at the incarnation. And I think with improv, yeah, sometimes you can see things where it's just simply how that group of five or six people is feeling together synergistically at that moment and that's completely special and in some ways it's like what we're all aspiring towards

I think that's why I like improv so much it's why what we're aspiring to in every art form at all is just connecting in the present. No kidding. What makes Chicago so great for improv? Do you think there's a reason why it sort of exploded there? I do. I think it's because of the very, very early roots of viola and the whole house and all of those early 1900s community center improv where she worked with families that had newly arrived in the United States.

Some families didn't speak common languages. And she did improv games to help people assimilate and help each other work together. And it was that whole era with Jane Addams who won a note. Wait, this is Viola Spolin, right? Mm-hmm. Wait, I did not know this. Yeah, I mean, where it's really mostly known

is through Jane Addams and Hull House, which is like this community center that became like a flagship community center in the United States. And Jane Addams had a lot of empathy for people in Chicago, families coming here that didn't have a dollar in their pocket

and had to figure out a new life in this new place called America. So Jane Addams had heard of the work Viola Spola was doing. She invites her over to do improv games with these people in the Hull House. I'm embarrassed to say I've never been to Hull House. It's supposed to be an amazing museum in Chicago. I've never been to it. But Jane invited Viola to do this. So Viola builds these incredible theater games that she had for children, but also for these families. Viola's son is Paul Sills, who co-founded Second City. He's the one who started meeting with Dell and the whole gang way back when in the 50s. So Paul Sills took his mother's information and used it. And that's why

I think Chicago is considered the international capital of improv, because it started with humanity needing improv to adapt. Oh, I love that. I know I do, too. And, you know, the idea that improv wasn't used for entertainment or a product. It was as a tool to help people cope is exactly what I take to the mutual friends that we have that aren't improvisers. Like, improv is a tool to help people cope is exactly what I take to the mutual friends that we have that aren't improvisers. Like improv is a tool.

Like when the wheels come off the bus, you've got improv to help you, in my opinion. So I have a question about, you were talking about there's no pressure to be funny in a scene. In a scene that's grounded, where does the humor come from often? the humor come from often? Well, the humor often comes from an observation that someone from the back line makes about the scene that you can't possibly see when you're in the scene.

Because the scene doesn't just belong to the people in the scene. It's the back line and the scene. It's the whole team. In other words, and just to be clear, the back line is the people who are in the cast of the show

but are not in the scene that's being performed at that moment. That's right, yeah. So the back line is responsible for sort of just taking in the data of the who, what, and where, what's going on with the scene. But often the back line will see a possibility of expanding the relationship or taking the relationship to an unexpected location in the second or third beats. Because remember, everything you ask me, like, what's the kind of improv I like or how would I describe it? Like, I'm always long form mentality based improviser, which means we may see a relationship

and it will get no laughs and it will not be funny the first time we see it called the first beat. When we do the second, third or fifth or eighth callback of the scene, then it may become hilarious. Because then everyone is contributing to the hilarity of what's discovered. We have to trust that it's going to be discovered. We may not discover it in the first three minutes. It may not be meant to be funny. But then what are we going to do with it?

And then when we continually invest in something, it's going to be funny because the back line envisions too much. That's my answer to that. Well, it's almost like I always think of stand-up, and I think improv, this is true too. It's like I always think of stand-up comedy at its best as like an inside joke between you and the audience. And I think in some ways improv is an inside joke between the cast and the audience that's there and the inside

joke doesn't happen until it happens it's like nothing nothing's worse than like a family having an inside joke where it's not earned and they're it's kind of forced sentimentality to create an inside joke but there's also nothing more pure than an actual inside joke that is kind of organically formed. That is so true. Okay, so along these lines, you know, Craig Kikowski, who was my coach, our coach on Frank Booth, at one point he gave us a challenge. He said, don't make me laugh in the first three scenes of your Herald and I'll give you all a dollar or something like that. That's such an improv-y coach thing to say. And we were all like,

oh, I don't want to pay Craig a dollar. So it was a great lesson for us to just really sit on the seriousness. And then the second and third and fourth and fifth beats were so funny because of what you just said. We earned it. Yeah.

We didn't ang for the low-hanging fruit. We didn't play for the ding of the audience. We just... But you see, it's so different. And you've really helped me understand and learn the difference between stand-up and improv and how it must be so hard for a stand-up person to wait for the laugh in improv.

It will come, but you gotta wait for it. You have to wait. You can never aim for it. Ugh, it'll never work. At least that's my opinion. I can't stand that. That's just me. Who have you seen come through Chicago?

Because over the years, you know, the luminaries of comedy who have come through Chicago is, it's endless, right? It's endless. It's endless. It's David Koechner and Tina Fey and Amy Poehler. Who have you seen, you know, Chris Farley and, you know, who have you seen go from being like a baby improviser to being like an expert and a star where it was the learning curve was astonishing? Oh, boy, that's that's excellent. That's excellent. I mean, the first person that comes to mind without question is Adam McKay, because I knew him when I think he was still sleeping on Sharna's couch. And he had like two shirts to his name and he couldn't afford beer.

And I'm not any and he wasn't a baby improviser in the sense that he was untrained and terrible. It's just that I watched his voice get refined by watching him improvise. And then when I saw the movies he made, I was like, oh, that's just how Adam improvises. Like the way he would cut away, break the fourth wall and kind of yell at the audience. Adam did breakout monologues unlike no other. He was often flustered because he was so filled with emotion. And then he just got more and more refined. That's that's interesting. That's my answer.

I mean, I feel so lucky to have seen the family improvised, which was Del's group. And yes, I'm aware it was a lot of men, but that's just what it was. But there were so many women of the time and of now, and I am a woman, like it's not like there were none, but I just learned so much. That's a really interesting, I'll see who else I can think of in terms of like the voice got so clear. Am I allowed to answer you? Oh, yeah, me. I think, yeah, that's what I was fishing for.

Well, I take full credit. I take full credit for your career. You know, I told you that. That's my joke. Three hours I taught you in 1998. I take credit. That's my joke. Three hours I taught you in 1998.

I take credit. You know, it's funny because sometimes I'll say to people, I go, Liz taught me in college for a workshop, and then that night we had a performance in the little rec center at Georgetown called Bulldog Alley, and I just particularly had a bad show myself. And then afterwards I was crying, literally crying because I was so embarrassed because here were these professional improvisers

who came to town, and I felt like I had this really wonderful experience in the workshops. And then I had this terrible show, and I was crying. And I mentioned this to you years later when we met through Tammy Sager, our mutual friend, who I met at UCB and you knew from Chicago years ago. Yeah. And we've both been friends for now for many years.

And so then you and I met up probably 15 years, 20 years after we met at Georgetown. Right. And you said, yeah, I've had a lot of students cry. Who else? Who else cry. Who else cried? Who else cried? Oh, who else cried? I don't know. I don't know. Well, it's a cry.

It's a cry. Only you. You're the only cry. Well, no, it's a vulnerable art form. It is a vulnerable art form. I've had a lot of, I mean, really, I just had a student cry her eyes out at the end of the workshop that I just did overseas. And, you know, it's because improv touches something so deep in us that it comes out in an uncontrolled fashion that we don't even know what's coming out of us and what people are saying are affecting us. And it's perfectly normal to me that improv would make someone cry because we're not writing it alone in a dark room and controlling

the presentation of our art. That makes me think, you must have experienced over the years people in improv groups who have like a transcendent experience with each other. And then they think they are in love with each other. But in fact, they're just in love with the moment of their improv. I mean, cut to a few marriages failing. I think... I think... More than I think. No, I think you're right. And I think the moment of collaborative beauty, right, does stick with us. But I think we have to see it for what it is, which is at this moment, these group of people got together and what they wanted to say was powerful and meaningful.

Do we want to make it more than it was? Sure. Or we can just walk away and be like, I just had a beautiful moment of collaboration with the group that people happened to watch. We worked on this movie, Don't Think Twice, together. with the group that people happen to watch. We worked on this movie, Don't Think Twice, together. And it's about this, I always explain it as, it's a group of best friends who are an improv group.

And then one of them gets cast on a Saturday Night Live type of show. And then the other ones don't. And it's about sort of what happens basically in life when you realize that not everyone is going to get the same thing. Do you feel like you've witnessed that? I mean, without naming names, but do you feel like you've witnessed that phenomenon in Chicago over the years in improv? Yes, infinite times, countless.

I couldn't count the times. Starting way back when, when I didn't even understand what the stakes were. Like, I remember one of, yeah, like the first time SNL came through and everyone was crazy at the theater and lorn and his people were coming in i was like who's lorn like i did i knew what snl was but i didn't see i didn't go into improv understanding it was a

feeder to that sort of world and actually none of us did i mean not none of us it wasn't nearly as commonplace as it is today so i just remember thinking like boy everybody's sharnish sure is up tight today because like lauren michaels was there watching yeah and then that's where and that's of course where he you know that's where he found amy poehler tina fey i i mean i'm trying to think of who else was from that. Oh, it's just so many people. Rachel Dratch. Rachel Dratch was from there. I mean, when I was in college, my improv group, we were self-named the Regal Beagles. It's a brilliant name, by the way.

Brilliant. Which is a reference to the bar and threes company. Yep. Oh, believe me. We drove from Washington, D.C. to Chicago in a rental car. Because we were under 25, we had to use a company called Rent-A-Wreck. Rent-A-Wreck. Come on.

That is perfect. There's a foreshadowing. And we saw everything. We saw a bunch of shows at I.O. We saw a group called Jane. It was an all-female improv group called Jane. Fantastic group. We saw Paradigm

Lost at Second City, which had Tina Fey, Scott Adsit, Rachel Dratch, Jim Zulevik, and Kevin Dorff, I think. I think that was the cast. Stephanie Weir was in Paradigm Lost as well. Stephanie Weir as well. And then we saw Annoyance Theater.

I want to say it's a show called Something Prison Sluts. Oh, Co-Ed Prison Sluts. I want to say it's a show called something prison sluts. Oh, co-ed prison sluts. I have it here on a DVD if you'd like to watch it. So those are the shows we saw. And it was, uh, it was a wildly, uh, wildly eyeopening experience. And it was one of those things where you, I did have a sense when I saw paradigm lost, which had Rachel Dratch and Tina Fey I go well these people are stars right?

Wow. You know what I mean? Because I think sometimes in Chicago or any of these places where you have a prominent comedy institution like Second City you do have a sense of like well this certainly this person is gonna be massive or these people going to be massive,

or these people are going to be massive. No, that's it. I think that's what brings audiences. You're going to be like, I saw them win. I saw them win. Are there any people who were such great improvisers, and you thought they were kind of destined for stardom, and they just didn't end up being stars, but they ended up doing something else? Yeah. I mean, on my team, Paul Grandy. Unbelievable.

Yeah. He's a legend in my mind for improv. I always call Paul the supporter of the supporter. Remember how TV cameras or camcorders used to be on your shoulder and someone would do a scene where they'd improvise a dad, let's say, videotaping a family. Then someone would be the chord manager of that. And then Paul would help the chord manager.

It's like that is the essence of what a great improviser is. Well, a great improviser is someone who's supporting someone else and actually making that person look great. That's right. And so the illusion when you're watching from an audience member is that that person who they're helping is a genius. But you don't realize that it's actually the person helping that person and maybe the person assisting that person that is actually the glue that's holding this whole thing together. That's beautiful.

I mean, but it's not, it doesn't, it doesn't sell so well. Like I always say this, that we call them comedy classes because that's what sells tickets, but it's really poignancy classes. But who's going to sign up for a poignancy class? So in the summer of 2016, when Don't Think Twice came out, you and I traveled around with the movie Don't Think Twice, and we did workshops with improv theaters across the country. We went to DC, Tucson, Seattle, etc. Do you feel like you learned anything from meeting people at all different improv theaters who have different

approaches? I learned that there are believers and collaborative group art forum in so many little nooks and crannies when you would least expect it. Just a lovely, believing group. Remember the group that drove from Tucson? They drove like three hours to have this workshop because the workshop I think was in Phoenix. Is that right? Or was it the other way around? That's right. I might have it the other way around. I was like, what an effort. All these people have kids, but they wanted to learn about collaborative art. And you gave them an opportunity with this movie to reflect the world. But I learned that there's people hungry for improv everywhere. And I learned that, you know, I take it for granted that I live in Chicago where

I could call 20 people tonight to come teach a class, and that isn't everywhere, and people are so grateful. I learned that—what did I learn? People love it as much as I do. How's that? Yeah. oddest coincidences I've ever witnessed, which is when we were making Don't Think Twice, the person who really had to learn it in the group were two people, Gillian Jacobs and Kate Micucci.

They just hadn't taken improv classes before, whereas Chris Gethard and Keegan-Michael Key and Tammy Sager had a lot of experience. And you. And I, and I had some. Some. of experience. And you. And I. And I had some. Some. But so, and I was really hoping that you and Gillian Jacobs would hit it off because so much of the plot of Don't Think Twice hinges on her being not just good at improv, but great at improv. Which is kind of a wild ask to learn that,

to learn in a week. I know, it was a huge requirement. It was like, it was, but she rose to the challenge like a champ, no surprise. She was amazing. Truly incredible performance. And, you know, but you and she in our first meeting, you were sort of trying to find something in common.

And you might remember it better. Where are you from? you were sort of trying to find something in common. And you might remember it better. Where are you from? Did it start with where you're from? Well, what happened was, let's say the workshop started at 10 and you were in that ballroom, that big, beautiful ballroom in New York City. In Midtown. And I was a little early. I was afraid I was not going to be able to find it.

And I was maybe 15 minutes early and Gillian was already there. And I've learned since, like, she's a super early professional person. So she had already been there waiting. And I walked in. It's just Gillian and I. That's it. And I had read in some long time ago, long before I knew I was going to ever even work with her. I'd read she went to the same high school I went to outside Pittsburgh.

So I walk in and I was like, hi, I'm Liz. As a matter of fact, we went to the same high school I went to outside Pittsburgh. So I walk in and I was like, hi, I'm Liz. As a matter of fact, we went to the same high school. And she was like, really? That's so strange. And then I don't know why I asked this, Mike. I just said, what street did you live on? And she said the same street I lived on. And then I said the number of the house. And I mean, this happened in under two minutes. And she went, oh, my gosh, my family and your family lived in the same house. So she texted her mom right away and said, do you remember buying the house from a Mrs. Allen? And her mom said, yep, sure do. Same house. Same house.

Gilly and I lived in the same bedroom in the same house. If that doesn't develop trust, I don't know what does. I mean, I'm't know what does. I'm sorry for taking over your telling of the story. No, no. I mean, the fact that we found out so quickly, and I remember, I think it was Tammy who said, how did you two discover that so quickly if you've never met? And I was like, I don't know why it stuck with me.

And I was like, well, I'll try to find a bridge with this nice person who's going to have to really trust me coaching. Like, here I come, total stranger, to coach this group, to look like they've been together for 11 years. And thanks to you, you know, so much for your faith in me to bring, coalesce these people like they, because when you're on an improv team for 11 years, that's a level of intimacy that you kind of don't get anywhere else. We talked about not even in a family, really. So the person who was most hostile to being taught in the improv group,

and he and I have talked about this, I think, on this podcast, was Chris Gethard. And it was not because he's, for lack of improv expertise, but too much improv experience. He had improvised at UCB for upwards of 10, 20 years,

or whatever it was. And he was really hostile to the idea of being taught improv by you. So how'd you break him down? That's a great question. He, you know, he's so knowledgeable, right? He's so knowledgeable that whatever I say. Oh, he's so smart.

He's a great improviser. He's going to have an equal and opposite rule in improv. And at first I thought, okay, this challenge is going to be good. The challenge from Chris is going to be good. And I just kept telling myself, this challenge will be helpful. And if he sees that I'm not willing to fight, but that I'm willing to be challenged and that we're going to both learn, maybe he'll follow me and trust me. Yeah. Because the challenge, I love to be challenged as a teacher.

But if the person doesn't want to learn at all, I mean, we're doomed. And he did want to learn. And I think he wanted a group experience. And I think he wanted to feel that ecstasy as a group. And as we get older as improvisers, we get bitter and we begin to think it'll never happen and that it was a false experience to begin with. And then we just made it up in our minds. As opposed to as a veteran allowing surprise and allowing the beauty to come forth of the group. And I think once he saw the two new people who've never improvised working so hard, how could he not jump in and work hard?

And then, you know, that group was clearly magical. It was a magical group, not only with your words off this page, but their words as improvisers. And I think, you know, how could, I remember thinking to myself, if he's the improviser, I think he is. He's not going to resist this bounty in front of him. That's so funny. What do you do when you know a scene isn't going well, What do you do when you know a scene isn't going well and you believe it cannot be saved? Do you try to save it anyway or do you try to edit the scene and move to the next one? Yeah, you can give one plaintive look to your back line

and see if they have anything. That's funny. I never thought of that. But if you're not enjoying your scene, you know you can get up and edit your own scene. Yeah. Just get up and leave. Who cares?

Maybe we'll hit it again in six minutes. We'll try the second beat, see how that goes. They can't all be winners. No, I think that's true. I think that's a really good point. What is the thing that you feel like you teach about improv that other improv teachers don't necessarily teach. I only know this through what I'm told. I am told that not many people really hit the power of the group as frequently and as often as I do.

I'm told that group awareness is just not as popular as maybe it was in the early to mid-90s. I can't teach without talking about the group. Can you go into that more of like the power of the group? Well, if all of these people happen to be together at some time in some space to collaborate together, there's a reason that they're drawn together because the harmony of these particular people is going to become a singular message if everyone agrees to harmonize. And we have our ego wants to have the experience go a certain way. Our ego wants the group voice to be a certain thing or to get our own voice heard. And if everybody can drop their ego and truly give over to the singular group voice, then we will find the most beautiful, amazing

discoveries that have ever been seen or heard that happen to be on stage in front of other people. But if people aren't willing to even believe in a group voice, then I'm not interested in coaching them. So I am told that group, combining our voices together via improv is not something that a lot of people teach. improv is not something that a lot of people teach. Can you think of a time where you were teaching a class, an improv class, and someone brought the principles of improv into another facet of their life? Well, yeah. I just got an example of this recently when I was teaching at Second City in the third or fourth class. This nice woman who'd never taken a class before showed up early and said to me,

I wanna share with you that I'm a family therapist. And I did some yes exercises with the family recently that I got from your class and they helped so much this family start to talk. And she said, I never thought about bringing improv into therapy, which is not a new idea, but it was beautiful to hear this woman so vulnerably share that.

And I thought, great. Improv just helped a family. That's awesome. I want to pitch an idea if there are any improv theaters around the country or around the world who are listening. I couldn't recommend more highly. who are listening, I couldn't recommend more highly reaching out to Liz Allen via lizallenimprov.com. You can come to their theater and teach. You can come and perform your solo show

that you're performing right now, which is beautiful. Thank you so much. You can perform with them. Sure. You're an incredible performer. I just couldn't recommend that more highly. Everyone whom I have recommended you to has thanked me profusely. And so I can't even, I can't even put to words what the magic precisely is that you bring to improv groups, but it is so special. So people should do that if they

have an improv group. Or like in the case of some of the people we're talking about, if you want to do icebreaker exercises with your company or whatever it is, it's great for that also. The last thing we do in the show is called Working It Out for a Cause. If you have a nonprofit that you think is doing a good job, we will contribute to them and we will link to them in the show notes, encourage people to contribute as well. Great. It's called Stepping Stones Network, and they help families who are victims of sexual trafficking and help children who have been victimized by sexual trafficking and help people escape trafficking situations. Stepping Stones Network. And there's several charities called Stepping Stones. So particularly this one is Stepping Stones Network. That's great. We are going to contribute to SteppingStonesNetwork.org

and link to them in the show notes. Liz Allen, thank you so much. I'll see you in a couple of weeks in Chicago. Thank you so much. I'll see you in a couple weeks in Chicago. Thank you so much, Mike. This was awesome. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. Again, if you're interested in learning improv from Liz, all of that is on her website, lizallenimprov.com. I could not recommend it more highly, even on Zoom, even remotely. She is incredible. She's also performing a new solo show called Tonight I Am My Mother. If you are an improv group or an improv theater, one thing that she has done in the past, which I think is awesome, is she will come and she will teach improv and she will perform her solo show. And she's just really, really incredible. She actually toured with me

when Don't Think Twice was on tour. She and I toured together to a bunch of small improv theaters and did workshops together. It was super, super fun. And I think if you're an improv theater out there listening to this, I would definitely consider that. Check out burbigly.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about all my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone, Joseph Burbigly, and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simons.

Sound mix by Shubh Saran. Supervising engineer Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Jack Andenhoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to J. Hope Stein. Little Astronaut comes out as an audiobook very soon. Special thanks as always to our daughter Una who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all

to you who are listening. If you enjoy this show, rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Let's say someone recommends a podcast that you don't like. Hey, check out Conspiracy Theory thing, murder. And instead of brushing them off, maybe in the spirit of improv, you could go, yes, and.

Yes, and also, you could check out Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out. It's where a comedian named Mike Birbiglia works out jokes and new material with other creatives. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time.