Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1165: Bishop Robert Barron on Physical Fitness, Satan, Evolution, Psychedelics & Much More

Episode Date: November 18, 2019

In this episode, Sal, Adam and Justin speak for the second time with Bishop Robert Barron. Focusing on the wider culture and moving forward on all fronts. (2:46) What was the conversation like with Jordan Peterson? (4:04) Why everyone is hungry for God. (5:18) What are the symptoms of poor spiritual health? (7:40) The problems of creating an idol out of the ego. (9:57) The surrender of control and asking God what does he want you to do today. (11:01) Why has religion fallen out of favor? (13:00) What is his take on stoicism? (15:06) Understanding the concept of the Holy Trinity. (17:45) How do you know what religion is RIGHT for you? (19:30) The four criteria to detach from and how to balance them in your life. (24:17) Why behind every addiction there is a soul quest for God. (26:06) Does Satin play a role in our lives? (27:50) What are his thoughts on psychedelics? (32:38) Using journaling as a spiritual exercise. (35:50) Has our time forgotten Jesus Christ as a human being? (39:21) How religion stirs up people’s feelings and emotions. (41:15) What is the hardest book of the Bible for people to comprehend? (43:20) Can we believe in creation and evolution? (44:05) Does he foresee any problems with editing our genes? (46:25) What is the connection between Christianity and freedom? Or this there any? (49:30) What’s the role of the church in protecting the freedoms of people around the world? (55:28) Where can people start if they want to look more into religion? (59:31) What are the greatest challenges facing us today? (1:00:27) How life is all about choices. (1:04:10) Does God want us to have lots of children? (1:05:15) Is he a big movie guy? (1:05:56) What types of music does a Bishop listen to? (1:08:45) How everyone has a poison somewhere. (1:10:05) Did Jesus ever laugh? (1:11:10) What are the different arms of The Word on Fire? (1:13:19) Is there a role of physical fitness in spirituality? (1:14:34) Featured Guest/People Mentioned Bishop Robert Barron (@bishopbarron)  Instagram Facebook Word on Fire Bishop Robert Barron - YouTube Ben Shapiro (@officialbenshapiro)  Instagram Jordan Peterson (@jordan.b.peterson)  Instagram Ryan Holiday (@ryanholiday)  Instagram Joe Rogan (@joerogan)  Instagram Related Links/Products Mentioned November Promotion: MAPS Performance ½ off!! **Code “GREEN50” at checkout** Robert Barron - Amazon Catholicism documentary Bishop Barron’s Interview with Ben Shapiro S2 E14: Bishop Barron: Catholicism and the Modern Age Mind Pump 1155: Ryan Holiday Mind Pump 827: Bishop Barron- Using YouTube & Social Media to Demystify Christianity & God Unnatural Selection | Netflix Official Site Mere Christianity - Book by C. S. Lewis Gran Torino (2009) - Rotten Tomatoes

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. So in this episode of MIND Pump, we interview one of our absolute favorite guests. We've had them on the show before. Bishop Baron, he's an actual Catholic bishop, a very, very wise person. Now he's the founder of the word on fire, Catholic ministries, and of course, he's a bishop of the archdiocese

of Los Angeles. He's also the host of Catholicism. This is a groundbreaking award-winning documentary about the Catholic faith with aired on PBS. Now he's also a number one Amazon bestselling author. He's published numerous books, essays, and articles on theology and the spiritual life. He's been a religious correspondent for NBC and has also appeared on Fox News, CNN, and on EWTN.

Now, his website wordonfire.org reaches millions of people each year. He's one of the world's most followed Catholics on social media his regular youtube videos have been viewed over forty million times that's a lot and has over one point seven million followers on facebook he uses new media like nobody uh... that we've ever seen from the christian faith or from other faiths for that matter uh... he's been invited to speak about religion at the headquarters of Facebook, Google, Amazon, and recently he even spoke at the United States Library of Congress. So we actually sat there and spoke to our politicians and did their prayer. He's also shared his dialogue with Dr. Jordan Peterson. He's been on the Rubin report

with Dave Rubin, Ben Shapiro, William Lane Craig, and a lot of other thought leaders on new media. Again, we really love this guy. We think you're going to enjoy this podcast. Now you can find him on YouTube, Bishop Baron. Baron has spelled B-A-R-R-O-N, so it's at Bishop Baron on Instagram, Twitter, his Facebook is at Bishop Robert Baron. And if you wanna find them on YouTube,

you can also try Bishop Robert Baron. That'll probably get you there a little faster. And then I mentioned his website earlier, it's wordonfire.org. We know you're gonna love this episode. Before it starts, I wanna let everybody know that Maps performance is 50% off. This is our athletic-minded, functional-minded, mobility-minded, muscle-building, and fat-loss

workout program. So it's 50% off. Here's what you do to get the discount. Go to mapsgreen.com and use the code green50, g-r-e-n, 5-0 zero no space for the discount. I've been seeing you all over the place. Haven't been. Yeah, since we last saw you, I saw you on Ben Shapiro and Rubin and Jordan Pierce.

Yeah, and you're on mainstream, I think, news channels or having a break. Yeah, we tried to take care of that. The Mind Pump buck. That's what we call it. It's things growing or things, is what you're doing seems to be working? We tried to take care of that. The Mind Pump bump. That's what we call that. Things growing or things,

is what you're doing seems to be working? Yeah, I mean, we're on fires going great guns. And a lot of different fronts, so we still do the YouTube videos, we do podcasts, the long films, you know, so we just got back a few months ago from Europe, I was filming over there. So we're kind of moving out a lot of different fronts, but one of the things we're focusing on is that kind of going out to the wider

culture thing, and especially addressing audiences that wouldn't normally, you know, maybe come to the Catholic Church or to religion. So that's why someone like Peterson, you know, I've always found intriguing, and he's speaking to a lot of people about, I would call them religious themes, you know, not in a way that I would consider you know just right in every detail But he's opening a lot of doors for people so I was happy to dialogue with him You know talking to you guys. I mean as part of that strategy too is to kind of go outside of the walls of the church That's a big part of our work the last time that we met we were we were actually talking about Jordan Peterson That was a bit topic and you hadn't got linked up with him. We obviously have listened to them. I

think we've listened to that interview multiple times because we like a lot of the stuff that he talks about. We love what you're talking about. What was that experience like for you? What did you think? Yeah. We did kind of a Skype thing, you know. So I was just in my house and then he was on Skype. So it was kind of really informal. But we talked for a long time, like an hour and a half maybe, long conversation, covering a lot of different topics. You know, he's an intriguing guy. We have a similar background in some ways. We've read a lot of the same people. He's got a philosophical interest as well as psychology and the mind is sort of philosophy and religion, so it's a lot of overlap in our interests. And I think our approach

is similar in some ways. So we had a lot to talk about. And he was very, you know, very moved obviously by religious themes. Whenever that would come up, you could tell he was very affected. Right. And at the time surprised me a little bit, you know, but I thought good, you know, if he's really

being affected personally by it, it's not just a matter of ideas. Yeah. And so I enjoyed it a lot. It was a pleasant conversation. It was easy going. It wasn't in any way confrontational, you know, it's our first chance really to meet. Yeah. So I was delighted with it, you know. From our standpoint, we're obviously in the health space. Yeah. And our journey through health and fitness took us through exercise and then nutrition

and then eventually you realize relationships around you contribute to health. And then eventually I think you start to realize that there's a spiritual component to health as well. And you actually see this quite a bit in the fitness space, but just not in the form of what you would consider traditional religion. So you see a lot of people in health and fitness that are like, you know, crystals and they talk about the universe and stuff like that. And I think that they're acknowledging that there's a spiritual component right to health. Everyone's hungry for God. That's the first thing, you know, so it's always going to come up in some form. Even though I say, oh, I have no time for God. I'm an atheist and I'm agnostic.

They're not really. Fundamentally, everybody is hungry for God. I don't know if last time around I shared this line with you, but whenever this issue of like body and soul comes up I always think of Thomas Aquinas who's my intellectual hero and Thomas said this soul is in the body not as contained by it But it's containing it and see that it's right to that point the soul is not like hidden in there someplace Or boy, I got to get my soul out of this lousy body so I can really get spiritualized. The soul is in the body not as contained by it,

but as containing it. The soul is kind of, it's a greater reality. It includes the body, so to speak. And so, in a biblical vision, which the Catholic church hangs on to, the body is extremely important. It's not like body versus soul. That's a platonic or a gnostic game of let's get the soul out of the body. Or let's denigrate the body. You know, if you pay attention to the body, that's a bad move. That's just not biblical. It's not

Catholicism, certainly. So I think to me it makes perfect sense that an interest in bodily health naturally leads to the issue of health of soul or spiritual health. One of the most ancient terms for a priest is the one who does Kura Animaram. He cares for the soul. Just again, we doctors care for the body. Psychologists care for the mind. Well, who cares for the soul? But when you care for the soul, you're also caring for the mind and for the body because the soul is what contains all of it You know, so my years like doing seminary formation. I was just training people who were into soul training

soul Doctrine and so all those things are connected absolutely So I so I could I could pretty clearly list the symptoms of what you would find with a poor diet. Yep. Or the symptoms of inactivity or poor activity or inappropriate activity or even the symptoms of poor relationships. What would the symptoms be of poor spiritual health or a lack of training there? Sin, self-approach, sadness, depression, aridity, the spiritual masters call it, you know, dryness. But, you know, the best term actually would be sin.

When sin manifests itself, so in particular sins that we commit, that's a sign of a deeper dysfunction. So Paul talks about like being in sin. When sin has taken control of me. That means you've got a much more fundamental issue going on and it's manifesting itself in the particular sins. So do the physical analogy, you got symptoms, right? Symptoms are manifesting themselves.

A doctor will say, okay, those are coming from a deeper dysfunction. Or like in the case of physical fitness, we're like, lethargy or I'm getting fat or whatever it is, he's like, well, that's all coming from a more fundamental trouble here with diet and exercise or whatever. So that's what a soul doctor is attuned to. What are the sins in this person's life?

And then what's the sin that they're coming from? And you can always trace it, by the way, look at all the spiritual masters back to one fundamental problem, you know? Sin with a capital S is always making an eye to a lot of the ego. So that's always the fundamental form of sin. It'll manifest itself in a million different sins. And you know, a mistake actually that some beginner spiritual directors make is they can focus too much on sins.

Let's look at your sins and how do I address the sins going on? Now, what are those sins symptomatic of? Oh, wow, that makes a lot of sense. Sin, and that's what we have to get at. This reminds me of someone coming to me and saying, hey, I gotta lose 30 pounds so I can get happy. And then I realize, actually, you gotta get happy first. And that's how you lose the 30 pounds.

And when you're mentioning the sins as these symptoms, when you're saying it, initially, I'm thinking like sins, like having sex before marriage or, you know, using God's name and fame, but I think when you said, I use creating an idol out of the ego, explain that a little bit. That's the ego drama versus the Theodrama. That's when you say, my life is about realizing my plans, my projects, you're my bit of players, you're my supporting cast. I'm the center of the universe. My life's about me.

I'm the writer, producer, and director, and star of this great drama, and all of you are kind of bit players in it. So right now, the Robert Barron shows on the road here, and you guys are, I'm gonna move on. That, the ego drama, right, making the ego central, then produces all the dysfunction that we associate with sin. The key is making a transition to the Theodrama,

which is saying there's a great drama that God is producing and God is directing and God wants you to play a role in it. But we discover that role, then you found who you really are. But it's not about you, your life isn't about you. It's about what God wants for you. And when you make that transition, then things tend to fall into place in your life. That's when you get healthy spiritually. You know what I'm saying? So that's one of the major ways to name the difference.

Are you ego-dramatic or theodramatic in the way you look at your life? How would that look in terms of how I would live? Like, let's say I wake up in the morning and it's not just about me and my ego, but it's the still. Well, you know, I'll tell you, I'm kind of a morning person. I wake up early and I do my holy hour, they would call it the first thing in the morning. So I go to my chapel, bless the sacrament, and I pray the office, you know, which is part of my obligations of priest. You pray this series of prayers and so on and stuff.

But you also spend time with the rosary or the Jesus prayer or just in silent contemplation. Well, one of the questions I always kind of force myself to ask during the Holy hours, all right Lord, what do you want me to do today? So you can begin your day by saying, okay, how can I become more famous, get more pleasure, find more power and be more Honored, right? I can I can structure my day that way. That's what I want to do now. How will I do that? Or you can say

No Lord, what what do you want me to do today? What's your plan for me? How can I speak your word today? Tell me show me and Part of it is a surrender of control, you know, because the ego-dramatic thing is it's I'm in control. It's my life. It's my mind. It's my will. My desires. My projects. The Theodrama is allowing God to operate through me, you know. And it's, see, and it never involves the negation of the self. It always involves the elevation of the self in the good way. It involves making you more yourself because when you surrender your mind and your will

and your powers and your energy to God, now it's like the burning bush. It becomes more beautiful and more radiant, without being consumed. That's the symbolism of the burning bush. It's on fire but not consumed. So it's more itself It's more beautifully itself because God has set it on fire

That's the that's the fulcrum on which this thing teeter taught us in some ways. Are you more ego-dramatic or theodramatic? What you're saying makes so much sense and when I hear you talk I often wonder how and why religion has fallen so out of favor, especially with the younger generation. Yes, and you know why I think, I'm glad you brought that up because we've forgotten our own language of soul-doctoring. Prior to the modern periods, so let's say the rise of the sciences, prior to that, the smartest people in the West all went into soul-doctoring. So think of the greatest minds, you know, in the ancient world and into the medieval world. Think of your Dante's and Thomas Aquinas' and Selms and Abelards and Bonneventures

and all these people, right? What are they going to? They went into soul-doctoring. They went into understanding the soul. What it wants, what it desires, where it goes wrong, how to address it, how to save it. And I used to say where I'm purpose, S-A-L-V-E, because that's related to the Latin word solos. It means health, right? And you'd say, salve to someone in the ancient world. That meant health to you, salve. You know, that means like a greeting. Salve, S-A-L-V-E is Saved, like a Saved, to make you healthy. All these people studied the Saves of the tradition that you would rub into the syn-six soul to make it functional again. But see, we forgot a lot of that.

Religion deviled, there's all kinds of reason for this, into a lot of bickering about science and religion and that kind of stuff and questions like that. But the fundamental questions are always soul doctrine questions. They remain just as relevant today as ever because people suffer from the same things they always have. And the solutions can't be found finally in the physical or in the psychological realm. They got to be found in the spiritual realm. But we've stopped propagating that. We've stopped talking about it.

Many of even religious leaders have forgotten that language. And I think that's exactly why. One of the reasons why religion has sort of fallen away. It just seems like, oh, it's old-fashioned science. It's outmoded, you know, cosmology or something. It's soldocering and that remains as relevant as ever. This, this, we just recently had an interview with Ryan Holliday, I don't know if you know who that is. He's an author of a ego as the enemy, stillness as key, and he's a, a big stoic reader. And something he said to me that I didn't know that, and he referred to one of the stoics, and I don't remember the stoic's name, that was born at the same time. Jesus was, what is your thoughts on stoicism?

And what does that fall into all of this? Well, it was used to some degree by Christian thinkers. So it was appropriated to some degree. And even the language of detachment that you find in a lot of the Christian spiritual masters has a stoic overtone, meaning that kind of, you know, letting go and letting be, and I'm not going

to try to control things. Here's the main difference, though, in a stoic view, it's more like fate. There's like this, sort of the forces of fate, to which I surrender myself. But see in the Bible, it's not that. I mean, God isn't as bland as that. God's a person. God's an actor. God wants something.

God is involved in our lives. So yes, we got to get detached from our egotistic desires. So a wealth pleasure power on it, right? And all the things that are there and into that. So my whole life becomes my attachments to these four things. Get rid of that. That's true. Become detached. So that, not like fate can take over some abstract necessity, but that God can take over. And boy, now you're in for a ride, man, because God is active and he's a person and he wants to accomplish something.

So that's very different from stoicism, which is, in a way, I don't want to oversimplify, but there's something like that in the Buddhist tradition. There's a lot that we find a lot of congruence with that kind of detachment and acceptance and all that. But the difference is you don't have that vibrant, active sense of God as a person who now is sending you on mission.

That's key to Christian spirituality. It's always a mission spirituality. You've got a job to do. Because no one in the Bible, there's no exception to this. No one in the Bible ever confronts God without being sent out of mission. So it's never like, oh, I'm now in my contemplative aloneness with God.

Bible's not interested in that. The Bible says like the Bernie Bush is a good example. So Moses, Moses, come over here. And Moses communes with God and God reveals his sacred name. I am who I am and all this high mysticism. But then, all right, Moses, I got a job for you. Now you go liberate my people. It's true of every single person in the Bible period.

And in Christian spirituality, it's true of all of us. It's finding your mission. When you find your mission, you found yourself. You don't know who you are until you find your mission. Now, the concept of the Holy Trinity is a very complex topic in general. Is there a way that you can more clearly define that for people and have them understand, like, the definition of God? And why this is a Trinity? Yeah, I know it's super important. The Trinity is the technically theological way of stating that God is love.

That makes sense. So that's the distinctive claim of the New Testament. Not that God has love, or that God loves, all the religions will say that in some way. But Christianity says God is love. Well, if that's true, there has to be within the unity of God. So we're monotheists. We don't think there are many gods. There's one God. But within the one God, there's got to be a lover, a beloved, and the love that they share. So if he is love, I have love. I love from time to time. So that's an attribute of mine.

But if God is love straight through, that's all he is. There has to be from all eternity, a lover, we call him the father, a beloved, we call the Son, and the shared love, we call the Holy Spirit. Because Spirit just means breath in Latin, right? It's a penuma in Greek, so it's the holy breath, breath back and forth between the Father and the Son from all eternity. That's what the Trinity name, see. So it's just a, you can't say, oh yeah, I hold the God is love, but I think the Trinity stuff is a lot of, you know, who we eat. It's just one way of saying, two is if saying the same thing, right? If God just loves, I don't have to opt for the Trinity.

So let's say in a Jewish or Islamic framework, I can say the one God who loves, but in Christianity I say God is love. So I have to hang out of the Trinity. Very interesting. A couple interesting things come up when we talk about certain truths like detachment and how they that's shared in multiple religions. One thing that I learn through fitness is you can look at science and you can see what studies show. I can know anecdotes through what I experienced with my clients. And then oftentimes I look at practices

that span different cultures. And many times you find a lot of truths in that. For example, fasting is practiced all over the world it has for thousands of years. There's lots of truths in that. Detachment seems to be a shared truth. There seem to be these shared kind of values. What one common question,

one even that comes up from me a lot is, how do I know that this is the right religion, or this is the right belief over others? Yeah, and you're two things you're raising, they're both important. First of all, the points of commonality. And you're right. I mean, anyone that looks at the philosophical and spiritual, even psychological tradition, let's say it like a Peterson does. You're gonna find these points of contact for sure. And detachment is one of the great unifying elements, because where we tend to go wrong

is we get hung up on something creaturely, I would say, something finite, all good in themselves, like wealth pleasure, honor, power, they're all good in themselves. The material world's good in itself, the body's good in itself, but if I make any of those things absolute, I get in trouble. Hence, I fast, hence I, you know, abstain from things, hence I give up wealth, hence like in a lot of spiritual traditions, including Catholicism, you've got celibacy, you know, which has always

been a sign of a certain detachment from sex and marriage and the things that we usually get preoccupied with. So, those are points of commonality, for sure. Now, how do you know the Christian path of all these paths is the right one? See, what's hard about that question is it's a bit like asking, let's say an Einsteinian, well, how can you think Einsteinian physics is the correct path? Well, there's no one formula. You have to kind of walk someone through all kinds of things. I'm looking over your shoulder

at a picture of John Henry Newman back there. We just celebrated his canonization. I was just over in Rome for that. And Newman famously says, the way we come to a scent, to say like, yeah, that's true. It's hardly ever by means of like one clenching argument. It's hardly ever by means of one thing.

It's this argument, this experience, this hunch, this intuition, this example, this person, you know what I'm saying? All of which tend to come together in one place, that they tend to one conclusion. And that's the process by which we come to say, yes, that's true. And I think that's true of Christianity. It's a whole slew of things. And if we had time, we could sort of shake his step-by-step through that. But there's never

like a silver bullet thing about, oh, that proves like Christianity is true. Here's one way I might just put out like a little teaser sort of answer. Name a religion or philosophy that's more compelling than this, that God went to the limits of God for sakeness to find us and bring us back. Because this Christianity seems to me is the Father, you know, God so loved the world that he sent his only son, but where? So we could you know proclaim things from a height to us and tell us how bad we are. No, he sent his son all the way down. That's the cross right into into cruelty and into hatred and into violence and into deep suffering into death itself. God died.

Why? That he might find us and then bring us back. Now do you early question about the Trinity? See, in the name of the Father, so there's the lover, the one that did the sending, end of the sun, and see what we do with it, we go all the way down. So the Father sends the sun, and then of the Holy Spirit, that means the love that connects them, is now the love that contains me. So the father out of love, send the son all the way down to get us. They think of people in their worst moments in life, right?

And we've all been there. We've all been there. Your time of greatest despair, when you're in some addiction, your caught, you're lost to loved one, you're in deep sadness and suffering. That's what this means, right? The father sent the son all the way there. So when you look at a depiction of the crucified Jesus,

that's what you're meant to see. That's me in that situation we've all been there. But the father sent the son all the way there. So as to gather us back into the Holy Spirit, which is the love that connects them. I don't know, I've studied a lot of the religions and philosophies of the world, and just from a kind of aesthetic standpoint,

if you want, or what's compelling, I mean, I don't know, I don't know anyone that's more of a calling that out. You talk about the four things to detach from and in themselves, they can be good. How do we find that balance of pursuing maybe those things or being apart or living amongst those things but then also detaching at the same time?

Yeah, I'll give you saying Augustin's great formula. And I've told people, if you want to be happy, this is it. Throw out all the other books, this is it. Augustin said, love God. And love everything else for the sake of God. Now you'll be happy. In other words, love God with all, you know,

in the Bible says, with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, that means God is it, God is the center of your life. Now, once that's in place, okay, I love God. Now, I love everything else for the sake of God. So, do I have wealth? Okay, good. Now, use it for God's purposes, not your own.

Do I have a pleasure, whether it's in sex or food or drink or the sensual, terrific? How is that part of God's desire? Do I have honor? Have I been honored? Great. What's sick is when I say honor, honor, honor, honor, was great.

I love that. I want more of it. Which will inevitably happen, by the way, because you will get addicted to all these things. Guarantee, there's no way around it. You will get addicted if you don't have God as your anchor. So if that's the you have fame, you've been honored. Good. Use it for God's purposes.

Power, you've been given power. All right, terrific. And we love power. Tolkien, I think, is right about that. Maybe of the forest when we love the most is power. Okay, good. You've been given power. Now, use it for God's purposes. So love God, and then love all those things for the sake of God, and you'll be okay. But when you start loving those things for themselves, then you get off-kilter, you fall apart on the inside, and then you tend to radiate unha around you, you know

I noticed for myself and this is kind of I think a common belief that when things tend to get hard In life that's when I start to search for some of these answers and Do you think that life is just gotten so easy that people are less likely to search for some of these answers? No, because I think the search is going on all the time. I hear it all the time. What could happen is I get lulled into a kind of complacency and I think, okay, I've got enough. I've got enough to make me happy, but it never lasts because we're not wired that way. We're wired for God, right? We all are. And so I won't be happy. Trust me.

And it'll manifest itself. You always see it. Someone goes, oh, I got all the wealth of everyone and I got all the pleasure and all the honor I've ever wanted. I'm going to sit back and relax. Good luck. It'll never stay that way. You'll want more. You'll get frustrated. You'll lose it, you know. And so there's a permanent hunger for God that's hidden in all that. See, behind every addiction, that's the thing that a soul doctor has to see, behind every addiction is a quest for God. When you're saying, okay, I'm looking for pleasure. So there's booze or it's pornography or it's drugs or whatever. And I find it.

I got it. I got the pleasure I wanted. But what happens? Of course, it fades away, right? So now I go back. I want more of it. And maybe I do get more of it, but then that fades away. And then I start to panic, and I start looking for more of it. And before you know it, you're addicted.

You're addicted, but see what's underneath that is a hunger for God. You want God. So the spiritual masters got to get in there and say, here's what's really going on in these desires of yours, you know? Bishop, you talked about how God is plays an active role in our lives and from what I know of

you know, the Bible and is that they're in the beginning their stories of God playing a role and then there's Satan that plays a role. To Satan play a role in our lives. What is the belief around that? And if he does, or how? Yeah, I think he does, and he does through temptation for the most part, and spiritual and sinuation. There's a famous fresco, it's up in Orvieto, it's by Lucas Cineurelli. And it's his great image of the Antichrist.

And the Antichrist looks for all the world like Jesus. So he's got the typical, you know, vesture and look of Jesus. And he's speaking to the crowd with these two hands coming out. But you look more closely at the picture. And next to him is the devil and he's up to his ear. And he's just whispering something. And actually it's the devil's hand

that's coming through his vesture. And so it's a beautiful depiction of how that works. The dark spiritual powers tend to do it through insinuation and temptation so that it looks like, oh, I'm acting. And you aren't away, but it's the dark power is kind of insinuated something to you. So yeah, I do think pulse of that we battle against not just flesh and blood, but powers and principalities. So there are flesh and blood opponents that we face all the time, you know, people around us and the culture and so on. How similar is that to the concept of

Yin Yang, like with that duality? Well, no, because that's more positive. Well, there's a couple things I'd say. The Yin Yang yang thing I think is a really rich and profound principle that you've got this sort of dark light if you want or positive negative forces that are at play and finding the balance between them is the right thing. So that's good. There's something really right about that, but we don't want to find a balance like between Jesus and the devil. Let's find the right balance. This is more of like a direct It's like between Jesus and the devil. Let's find the right balance. This is more of a direct affront to spiritual wellbeing.

So the devil has to be rebuked. So that's the Jesus move in the gospels is to rebuke him. You don't compromise with him. But Yin Yang is a different thing. That's the Taoist thing. I think is very rich and profound. And actually, Jordan Pearson plays with that.

I think in a very provocative way about, you have noticed what we know, and then there's the kind of realm of the unknown, and I got to move into that realm. And, you know, so, I mean, all of that, I think, is very positive. And that's just a, that's kind of a cool way of looking at your psychological development. But this would be a different game we're talking about here. How does, can the devil possess people, and is it like you see in the movies, or are there different ways where people get possessed with this? Yeah, I wouldn't worry about that. does can the devil possess people and is it like you see in the movies or are there

different ways where people get possessed with this? Yeah, I wouldn't worry about that. What I mean by that is it's such a rare phenomenon. I think there is that phenomenon. I think typically the devil moves much more subtly through insinuation and temptation. That's much more common and much more dangerous, frankly. I think possession is real. I've known some exorcism,

I mean, people that are involved in that work directly. And yeah, I think it happens, but it's a very, very, very rare phenomenon. And the church would call upon formal exorcism only in extremely rare cases. For a criteria, you have to present themselves with utter clarity before a bishop would ever agree to that. So it's not like it's a common thing.

Have you ever witnessed one? No, no, but I've known excerpts over the years who have been involved with them. And again, talk to the excerpts, they'll tell you the same thing. They'll say, this is extremely rare. And so when people get, they're too excited about it or too interested in it, that's not a good thing. You know, I wouldn't mess around with it.

And the theory, there's people I think who, speaking now more broadly outside the Catholic church, I think that play around with this thing in an irresponsible way. I wouldn't play around with it. Yeah, I went to church, it was a young kid, my family took me to I think eight or nine different denominations as a kid

till I kinda saw a lot. And we were in a Pentecostal church for a while and I saw the slain in the spirit and you know, rebuking Satan out of people. And what I had a hard time as a kid was, I just, it seemed like it was almost a show that they were putting on, but it was happening every Sunday.

Every Sunday we were rebuking Satan out of people and they were falling over. It was happening every Sunday. Every Sunday we were, right, yeah, we're you can say that to people and they were falling over and getting swayed in the spirit. No, no, I'll try to walk a careful ground here. I have no coral whatsoever praying for people. And if people are in some kind of spiritual distress, psychological distress to pray for them, I mean, that's great.

But I'd be extremely skeptical of that sort of, you know, as you say, you know, garden variety, like every single week we're casting on the devil and the Catholic Church is much, much more reticent and careful and it needs the four criteria very clearly before it ever make that formal move, you know. I've heard, you know, spiritual leaders talk about methods and ways to be more aware of the presence of God, whether it be meditation, or chanting, or fasting. And more recently, I've heard a lot of spiritual leaders or what not talk about using psychedelic substances.

You know, Ayahuasca, for example, or LSD or mushrooms and how those substances can open them up and then they can see God. And what is your, I guess belief around those or understand? I'd be very skeptical of the last one. The ones you've mentioned first are all classical spiritual paths. And you're right.

And there are techniques if you want to use that term that people have used. That's trans culturally, trans religiously. But sure, when I go on retreat, let's say to a Benedictine monastery, and I get up early in the morning, and that's part of it, too. You're not lying in bed all morning. You get up early, and you join the monks in prayer, and they're chanting the Psalms back and forth in a choral manner. And you join in there, and there's something in the repetitiveness, or some mantra-like, about the reciting of the Psalms.

No one's trying to be a historic about it. You're just kind of chanting them back and forth. That's a spiritual practice, very, very ancient spiritual practice. And it does give you, you know, if you want, it's a sense of God. Now, you want to avoid any sense of automaticism. Oh, yeah, just go there, do this, and don't worry. God, you'll see God. I mean, no God does what God wants, but there are classical techniques that the great spiritual traditions have seen. And you write it like about fasting and this sort of thing.

Yes, to rid us of attachments, but see, that then opens a lot of things up. You know, when the Lord Jesus says, you know, in regard to a possession, and they say, Lord Lord we've been praying all days and it's only prayer and fasting that will do it. Some of these techniques do open up certain doors. Read the desert fathers on them and the different techniques. But what I was doing this morning in my holy hour, even like the office, what's the office but Psalms?

It's the Psalms of the ancient prayers of the church. And I don't speak them out loud, but I kind of, you know, quasi, I try to read them slowly. Well, that's a spiritual practice. I also do the Jesus prayer, which is from the Eastern Christian tradition, is the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner Lord Jesus Christ son of God have mercy on me a sinner repeated over and over and over again Hundreds of times. I don't do it hundreds times, but I have the little it's like a prayer rope The rosary is like a mantra prayer, right? He'll marry full of grace the Lord is with the blessed earth out the among women as you're praying the rosary You have really attending to every single prayer individually. It's It's setting up a sort of spiritual and psychological space. Thomas Merton said, so he used the Buddhist term of calming the monkey mind, the mind jumping around.

Like when you wake up in the middle of the night, it's always that to me that's where the monkey mind comes in. If you happen to wake up in the middle of the night, and it's like, oh, you suddenly you're worried about 10,000 things. I want you to shut off. Mine just won't. So the rosary has that quality to it, you know, I started journaling. Yep, maybe about a week and a half ago, and I cannot believe the the benefit I'm receiving from I'm getting from

journaling, just waking up in the morning and then doing that practice. And I noticed that it almost is taking the form of what you might even consider to be prayer. Absolutely. He's disclosed to praying this. Yes, no. We're getting them. You know, we time is merton.

I mean, merton feels volumes of journals. And that was definitely a way of praying. Merton, you know, time is merton, the great traitors monk from the last century, great spiritual writer. But Merton lived as a hermit, the less couple years of his life, so all by himself and this cabin out in the woods. And wake up in the morning, sit out in the porch, drink his coffee, do his morning prayer,

and then he would write, you know. And it might just be, there's a blue bird sitting on the fence, and he's against the pine tree. And, you know, he's just, it's a spiritual exercise, is he's describing, observing, yeah, observing the real, you know, that's a spiritual principle, but the real is always gonna bring you to God.

See to be in sin is always to live in a realm of illusion to some degree. False consciousness, if you wanna use that term, right? Yeah, distraction or false consciousness. I'm just, I'm not in touch with the way things really are. The real is always a path to God. So something as simple as that. Like, can I anchor myself in the real?

See what's right in front of me to be seen. It can be a spiritual exercise. If Aquinas is God's in all things by essence, presence, and power. Well, if that's true, then God is here. You know, in the Jesuit tradition, they've got the prayer called the Consciousness Examine. If you heard about that, but it's Ignatius of Laior, the founder of the Jesuits, great spiritual teacher,

said that if you eliminate all prayer, but kept this one prayer, you probably have enough, and he meant the Consciousness Examine. And what that is is the end of the day, typically, to review your day, right, like a movie. Okay, woke up at 5.30 and had a good night's sleep. Thank you, thank you, Lord, for the good night's sleep I had. And then I did my prayers.

I had scrambled eggs for breakfast and they were good. And I went for a walk and how beautiful that was. I met this person and I could have been kinder to that person. I was a bit of a jerk, you know, I'm sorry about that. Then I did this, I did that and you go through your day and you just review it in light of God and say, all right, what were the opportunities of grace today and how did I cooperate with them?

See, in journaling can be part of that. You can journal your way through it. That's exactly what I do. A conscious example. What happened to me today? But put it in terms of God. What was God offering to me today? God's, in the present moment always,

we get obsessed with the past and the future. That's a typical way of living in illusion, by the way. I'm obsessed with my past. Oh, what I did. Oh, what a terrible person I was. Oh, my God. Oh, how great it was way back then. Oh, if only this happened to me, I'd be so happy. But those are both illusions. You know, God is Thomas as the ends-ray-alistimum. He's the most real being. So when I'm in touch with reality, what's right in front of me? I'm in touch with God. And journaling is a way to do that.

And so is the conscious's exam. That's not being present. Yeah, I wanted to talk to... Yeah, keeping on the real side of talking about Jesus as a human being and talking about that, him actually being here, do you worry sometimes that in this post-modern world we're not going to be recognizing the fact that he was an actual real human being? No, I think it's the opposite. I mean, when I was coming to Vage, everyone emphasized, you know, the humanity of Jesus.

Jesus was a real historical figure and voice. He's a human being like us. I think it's the other side that our time is as forgotten in these divine. And see, he's human indeed. So we say he's true God and true man, right? But if he's just another human teacher among many, okay, you know, there's the Buddha and there's Sufi mystics

and there's, you know, D. Pekchopra and all kinds of people I can choose from. Jordan Peterson maybe, there's the Buddha and there's Sufi mystics and there's you know, deep-hack Chopra and all kinds of people I can choose from Jordan Peterson maybe as a teacher if that's all Jesus is well, then okay. I mean who cares What Jesus is is the God so loved the world He sent his only begotten son all the way to the limits of God forsaken is that I might be drawn back into the divine life Now we're talking now see for that to be true, he does have to be both divine and human. If he's just divine, he's not gonna reach all the way down into my experience, right? It's not gonna reach.

Right, if he's just human though, he's not gonna save me. He's like, no, he's in the same boat I am, he's as lost as I am. So what makes him the savior is that he's both divine and human, which is the great Christian claim. And you know, go historically, this thing oscillates back and forth. You go over the centuries.

Sometimes the humanity of Jesus is really emphasized. Other times the divinity is really emphasized. And the church has always said, both man, both man. And if anything, I'd say in my lifetime, it was certainly the humanity of Jesus that was emphasized. And the divinity was kind of like, oh and, and if anything, I'd say in my lifetime, it was certainly the humanity of Jesus that was emphasized, and the divinity was kind of like, oh, well, who knows? But it's the two of them together

that makes him the savior. What really attracted me to you initially, Bishop, when I saw you on YouTube was your ability to communicate the way you communicate things. You were able to pierce through the cynicism that I think is so common, the cynicism, that can sometimes overpower me. And so I see a lot of times with what you're doing

with social media and your new media, your podcast, and whatnot, is you have a lot of non-catholics, non-christians who are moving over, listening to what you have to say, and say, oh, this is really good. But I also see you have a lot of Non-Catholic non-Christians who are moving over listening to what you have to say and saying oh, this is really good But I also see you getting a lot of criticism from Catholics and Christians It seems like they seem to be the ones that have issues with maybe the way you're reaching out or how you commute Is that is that what's happening? I'm are just well, I mean someone in the extremes. I mean honestly I'm on the extremes both left and right but Some on the right are mad because I suggest

that we may hope that all people be saved. Now, that's not a claim that they all will be saved. I don't know, it's up to God, you know, I don't know, but maybe hope for it. And I stand with number of theologians who say yes. So some on the extreme right have gotten mad at me for that, but and I've clarified a million times what I mean and don't mean by that statement.

So I don't worry about that too much. I mean, I think that whenever you come out in a very public way and you talk about religion, you're going to get a lot of people throwing stones at you because it's this way it goes from from Jesus on. I mean, religion just stirs up people's ultimate feelings. How does the church feel about what you're doing? Are they very supportive? Yeah, yeah, I mean, they haven't,

when you say like the church, whether it's my bishop when I was back in Chicago, Cardinal George is a big supporter of what I was doing. Out here now I'm in auxiliary bishop in LA, you know, our special go mess is never in any way set limits or so, don't do this or that. When I go among my brother bishops, they're always like super

enthusiastic about it. They elected me chair of the evangelization committee, you know, for the USCCB, the Conference of Catholic Bishops. So no, I think the church, whatever you mean by that, but it's been, you know, supportive. When you are teaching, what do you find the hardest book of the Bible to teach and explain to people or which book do you think they have the hardest time receiving? Probably Genesis, the opening of Genesis, because that's where people get hung up. You know, it's one of the great texts that's come down to us from human history, the book of Genesis. But people get hung up on the opening chapters as though it's proposing an alternative scientific vision.

And I got it aside, you know, do I side with the scientists and the earth is 13 and a half billion years old, or I side with the book of Genesis, that it's whatever people say, 6,000 years old, or you know, I got it just Darwin, or it's the opening of Genesis. So in a way, that's a problem. I mean, you're up against a fundamental misunderstanding of how that text functions. So to that point, can we believe in creation and evolution, or is there a line between it? No, absolutely. You can't ensure it because it's apples and oranges. The problem is people think they're addressing the same issue. Evolution is a theory that purports to describe how biological species have evolved over space and time. Proposed by Charles Darwin, refined by a lot of his disciples over the last, you know,

century and a half. Yeah, good. I find it to be, I learned as a kid and found it persuasive then, find it persuasive now. Can you raise, you know, questions about it? Sure. Serious people do. Fine.

That's a scientific issue. If you ask me how the me how do the species develop? I'm not going to look to the Bible. I'm going to look at the scientists. They can articulate the answer to that question. The Bible is asking and answering entirely different questions. Is it about the origin of all things? Yeah, in a way, but it's proposing it theologically rather than scientifically. Are all things, yeah, in a way, but it's proposing it theologically, rather than scientifically. Are all things created by God? Yes, is the great claim of Genesis.

That's dead right, but that's a religious claim, not a scientific claim. It's not trying to give an account, say, the way, let's say, an astral physicist might or an evolutionary biologist might. The Bible is making the point, in answering to a different type of question. Creation, I'll do Thomas Aquinas with you. Creation names the relationship that obtains between absolute being and finite being. If I can put it that way.

Aquinas says that creation is happening now, and that's the way into this question. Don't go back way, way back. Creation is happening now. And that's the way into this question. Don't go back way way back. Creation is happening now. Namely, God, absolute being is giving rise to finite being and sustaining it in existence. God is the answer to the question, why is there something rather than nothing? See, that's a different order question than how did the species develop? That's an intramundane question. That's the question about how

those things in this world unfolded. But why is there something rather than nothing? Now, that's a different question. The biblical answer and the great traditional Christian answer is, well, God, God makes and sustains the world in its entirety. So there are different types of questions, as apples and oranges. Speaking of science, there's this show on Netflix where they're showing these backyard scientists using something called CRISPR technology to edit genes and whatnot. Do you see any problems and potential future with that kind of technology from a theological standpoint where we can, you know, edit our genes and make ourselves genetically perfect or enhanced.

Yeah, I wouldn't know enough about it to say a lot. I've heard that term. I wouldn't be crazy about doing that. I think there's a very important spiritual move when you say, let God be God and let God offer to me what God wants to offer to me. If I try to take control of life in two aggressive away, trouble times to follow. And that goes back to the beginnings of modernity,

a lot of the critics of the early modern thinkers. We're worried about that, that I'm gonna try to manipulate and control the whole of life and point. I'd be very wary, especially of that. I try to create Superman or something and eliminate anything that's that I deem imperfect. Hand that over to human beings with all their sin. I don't know. I'd be very wary of that.

Yeah, we often get the question, like, how would we feel if they invented like an exercise in a pill or whatever? And as guys who exercise and work through nutrition for decades, I know, yeah, you'll take this pill and you'll get fit and lean, but you're not gonna get the same benefits that you get through the journey of getting to that point. I'll be blunt about something. So, it's not quite what you're talking about,

but in so many of the Western countries, down syndrome babies are simply aborted. That's why they've almost disappeared in our culture. That to me is a morally horrific state of affairs, but people saying, oh, that baby is not going to be up to my level. That baby is not what I want. That's a terrible spiritual stance to assume. And a terrible thing to do on that basis. So I'm very wary of, I'm going to create the perfect child, or I'm going to eliminate any children I think are inadequate. Heck, go right back to the ancient world when if the baby was born and was less than perfect, expose it on the hillside, or the

Nazis. To me, it's a retelent of that sort of move. I'd rather let God be God, except what God gives me as a gift. There's a lot of technologists really worried about artificial intelligence and how we're all going to deal with this and the moral implications. I just would love to hear from Abyssal how you guys are thinking about these types of issues. Yeah, and I really haven't thought about it that carefully. I get the, the danger and the difficulty of it, but I, I'm just reluctant because I haven't

really looked into what I thought about it that much. The AI issues. Yeah, yeah, definitely. No, I, I appreciate these conversations and these are questions that often, you know, pop up and it's, it's good to hear from the opinion from somebody who, you know, pop up and it's good to hear from the opinion from somebody who, you know, like yourself. So looking now at the world now, so this was very interesting for me years ago, even when I was atheist, one thing that I found fascinating is I used to have a, I still have a very deep passion for economics and government. And I remember learning how modern Western societies came about when it came to the concept of liberty

and free markets and how a lot of that came from the belief that we were created in God's image and we were gifted these in a legal rights. What is the connection between Christianity and freedom, or is their one? Oh gosh, yeah. There's a lot we could say about that, but I think you're right in suggesting that any polity based upon the idea of human rights is tied, I would say, to a religious vision,

whether you know it or not. And Jefferson, of course, says it explicitly. They're endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. go back to society like in ancient societies when people didn't believe in rights. Rights for the gift of the government or their gift of the aristocratic elite or the monarch, right? It's a biblical idea that every single individual made in the image and lightens of God is therefore a subject of infinite worth and is in possession of rights that aren't the gift of the culture of society or the king or anybody else, but of God. And therefore, governments are instituted.

I go back to Jefferson again to secure these rights. It's very interesting move, isn't it, that he makes there to secure these rights, not to create them, not to ground them, not to invent them, but to secure them, because they're independent of the government. They come from God. The government is there to secure them. Make sure that, yeah, people have the right to life, liberty, and so on. So I'm very wary of non-believing policies, because I think think even with all their high-fluid rhetoric about, you know, the people or the workers or whatever it is

Take out out of the picture human rights will follow very quickly The other one of course is equality, which I think is very interesting Again Jefferson that all men are created equal and and we might just let that run through our minds You know, but we're know, without noticing that word. Go back to classical societies. I go play dough and Aristotle and Cicero. Equal? I mean, they never thought people were equal. In fact, it was the radical inequality that was the ground for their political philosophy. So, Plato's got the three levels of, you know, types of people and only when they're in their right relationship is do you have justice?

Aristotle felt that the tiny handful belonged in the in public life the rest were consigned to private life and they should be they should do what they're told Where the idea come from that all people are equal? I mean to Aristotle wouldn't I said what do you mean all people are equal? Are you mine the rabbit? Oh idea totally and it's I don't mind. It's a rather old idea. Totally. I would say, and it's reflected in Jefferson's from the Bible. It's the idea that we are all, despite our differences, right? In intelligence, in courage, in virtue, in beauty, and we're different in every way.

We're not equal at all. But we are equal as children of God. And that becomes, I'd say, the foundation for a lot of the modern democracies. So take equality and rights. You take God out of the equation. And you've seen it, by the way. I mean, look at the 20th century, when in these monstrous ideologies of the 20th century, when God was taken out of the equation, that's exactly what happened.

There's actually part of their policy. Absolutely. It was to eliminate God. Yes, Karl Marx, whom I read very carefully when I was a student in college. I did my master's work in Marx. And yeah, the first critique Marx says, the religious critique. So the first movie got to make is Get rid of religion. And then you can move into the economic and political critiques.

Yeah, there's good reason for that. I was blown away to learn about, I was watching some documentaries, again, this is a passion of mine, to learn of, I think those Pope John Paul's role and potential role in the fall of the, you know, the Iron Curtain of the Soviet Union, it was a, he did a talk and I don't know what country it was in and it was a Soviet country.

1979 June in Poland. Yes. When he went back home. Of course he was friend. No, just friend. We have that date location. It's a famous. He had just been elected pope. You know, and this is when they were threatening martial law

when they thought the Soviet Union would move in and take over. Poland militarily. And John Paul goes home. And this is, you know, the church was under tremendous repression, but people came out by the millions. And despite, there's a wonderful literature around that because there was extraordinary campaign of misinformation and roadblocks and all this

to kind of keep people from getting where he was, but they came and the millions, you know. And the famous features during Mass in this is called Victory Square in Warsaw, and either privilege of filming there a couple years ago in this huge public square. And John Paul is preaching, right? And in the sermon, he's got the whole government behind him. He's got the Polish communist government behind him. I mean, the bravery.

Yeah. He could have easily been taken in. Absolutely. And it's only because he was Pope that they they didn't dare go after him you know but he begins talking about about God about human rights about liberty all the things we just been talking about and how they're grounded in in the scripture and in the great tradition and then famously it's the people the crowd begins to chant we want God we want God and it went on for like 15 minutes so a million people chanting we want God and

Most observers say that was the beginning of the end of the Soviet Empire because it was just this It was a revolution of the spirit. I mean that one shot was fired But it was clear that they lost the people. They did not have the people, you know, and John Paul New how to do that? He knew how to awaken that in people, you know. And I think, yeah, that was the beginning of the end. I read stories about how Christians are being persecuted in places like China, which is obviously a communist country. What's the role of the church and maybe securing the freedom of people around the world. Well, first of all, you're right in saying that the most persecuted religion around the world is Christianity. No question. Not a popular thing to say, but it's the truth.

No, but it's true. And there's no one even close in terms of second. We're the most persecuted religion in the world. And that goes at least to Asia, it's in Africa. In our country, it's more subtle. It's more of a cultural persecution, you know, but it's a fiery, hot persecution in many other parts of the world. And yeah, the church has to witness very strongly against that and speak up and speak in favor of. And there are a lot of martyrs. I mean, the martyrs have always been, as Tertolian said, the seed

of Christianity. I mean, it's always the blood of the martyrs that gives rise to the church. And there are martyrs galore all around the world, including in China. And so it's a tough moment, no question about it. It's a very tough moment for the church. The 20th century had more Christian martyrs than any century combined. Then all the other centuries combined. So you think of the early church, that's when they were thrown to the lions. It's nothing compared to the 20th century.

Wow, didn't know that. Yeah, but look at, you know, from Hitler and Stalin and Mao, and I mean, the people that were, they were putting Christians death like man in the 20th century. Why do you think that is? Well, it's a complicated thing. I would say my basic answer is tyrannies will always recognize religion as the fundamental problem.

Their first move is always to eliminate religion. And again, Mark said that. That's the first critique you have to do. You can't worship anything above the government. Right. And so when you speak of the government, as we say, being under God, one nation under God, that's a threat to tyranny.

It always has been. This is why even back when I was atheist, I understood this. Why? I was atheist, I understood this. Why as an atheist, but also as somebody who loved freedom and understood and loved the concept of liberty, I was always so opposed to people who were so anti-religion because I knew, you know, I had read Carl Jung and I'd understood that you eliminate God and you're going to worship something and usually it's the state. Yes, and that goes back to the very beginning of our conversation. That's exactly right. Nature

pours a vacuum and you kick God out of the central place. Something will move into that place. And see, soul doctors have always known when that happens, trouble will inevitably come. Because you'll start worshiping, you're right, either wealth pleasure, power, honor, one of those things. I begin worshiping my own ego. I begin worshiping my career. I begin worshiping my culture. I begin worshiping a political figure. Someone or something will move into that place.

Religion is always there to say no to that, to say no to that idolatry. That's why you know, it's very, go back to the cross again because Paul says, I preach one thing, Christ and him crucified. So Paul, that's his message, is the cross of Jesus, and how weird that was, how weird, weird. We look at the cross and say, oh, what a charming, religious symbol. When Paul was writing, the cross terrified people, it was Roman power, it was the power of the tyrannical Roman state. And so Paul saying, I'm not afraid, but I'm going to hold that up because that's a taunt to all of you because God's power is greater than the power of the state, greater than the power of Caesar. That's why the cross has always been a deeply subversive message. And tyrants have always

trembled at the cross. And what it means. So of course, they'll in league with their academic lackeys, they'll try to debunk the cross and say, oh, well, it's just, Jesus never existed or the poor thing just died in the cross, that was the end of it, or the cross is an archetypal symbol, or you'll do whatever you can to debunk the cross. But the Christian churches have always held it up because it's judgment on tyranny.

That's one of its functions, you know, it judges the tyrants. People, let's say somebody's listening right now and they're thinking, gosh, you know, I wanna kind of look into this a little more, I'm a little, where do people start? Let's say someone's listening and saying, you know, there may be some value to religion.

Maybe it's different than what I thought it originally was. What are some good ways for people to move into that space for themselves? I was just in England, you know, for this talk on Newman. And while I was there, I visited the tomb of C.S. Lewis, who's a great hero of mine. And Lewis's book, Miracrucianity, I think, is still a great way in. It's a great opening of a door. It's based on talks he gave, you know, for the BBC during the war. So they were like, 15 minute talks designed for, they were intelligent, but designed for

a general audience. And I still think that book is extraordinarily good. And I give it to people all the time. I recommend it. If you're kind of getting into it, trying to make your way, that's a great way to open the door. What are the greatest challenges that you think are facing us right now? Like right now, what are the things that you're kind of focusing your eyes on and say, okay, that's what I want to? Well, I name it in different ways. One is a secularism or an

immanentism that just says this life, this world, that's all there is. It's all I care about, you know, Charles Taylor is a Catholic philosopher that talks about the buffered self and he meets a self that lives within this little buffered space. And it doesn't try to break out to a transcendent. One of the signs of that is what I call the culture of self invention, which is very big today.

As people say, my life, my choice, I invent myself, even to the point of my own body, my own gender, it's up to me. I decide everything. That's repugged into a religious view whereby my life isn't about me and my choices and my goals and projects. It's about what God wants to do with me and through me and for me. Those are some of the big obstacles. So call it if you want a materialism and imminentism.

Another obstacle related is what I call scientism, which is the reduction of all knowledge to the scientific form of knowledge. So it's just an automatic self-limiting move. The real is what the scientists understand. It is always struck me as incredibly narrow, arrogant take on life. I mean, I just think scientists are based ultimately upon our senses, right? They're based on empirical observation followed by hypothesis formation, followed by experimentation, followed by conclusion, scientific method.

Great, great. It's terrific for understanding the world that I can empirically verify. But I think of the stupid eyes we have. They're attuned to one little narrow part of the light spectrum. That's what they can take in. Even within a worldly sense, there's elements of the light spectrum that we can't see with these little eyes. What are the odds that these eyes that, within this framework of planet Earth and the way the light is configured and all that stuff produce these eyes, ultimately, right?

So they sure, they're ordered to this world and, you know, and that's it, that's all the reality you think is limited to that. And that's not saying one little thing against the sciences. It's the great terrific but to say to make the further philosophical move on that's all there is What the sciences can know and control that's all there is I think it's breathtakingly arrogant take Especially when you look at the great tradition The pre scientific tradition that would would say are you kidding? I mean that had a keen sense of Dim dimensions of reality beyond what the senses can take in. Anyway. In our last podcast, I think you said there was like, there's scientific truth and then

there's philosophical truth and there's spiritual truth. I thought that illustrated it quite well. That's right. And don't let them be themselves. Don't reduce one to the other. And so it's nothing against the sciences. They're great, terrific. But don't draw everything else into the sciences. That's a that's scientism. And that's a real problem today with young people, I find. Circling back to when we were talking about the devil

and temptation, do you do you think that as we are drawn closer to God that that increases? Yeah, yeah, that's a standard perception of the spiritual tradition. And that's surprising. If the devil is a person with intelligence and will, now they're twisted and they're wicked, but you would not be happy as someone gets closer to God. And so see in the lives of the saints all the time that the saints themselves often have

the greatest spiritual conflicts. So yeah, that makes sense to me. As long as you're far from God, the devil's happy. We're gonna leave you alone. You're doing great. You're doing great. I'll leave you alone. Do you mind if I ask you a personal question?

Well, it depends. I'll personally. Well, before we did this podcast, I thought to myself, you know, I'd like to ask some questions that I've always wanted to ask, you know, a bishop or a priest. You know, one of them is like, do you ever feel sad or miss that you maybe didn't have a family or married or have children? Is that ever?

Yeah. Sure. Did you date anybody before moving into this space? Yeah. Years ago. And then got on this path. With some hesitations, there were a few moments when I was much younger, I thought, no, no, that's not the path I want.

But then once I entered the major seminary, I was pretty clear and I've been on the path ever since. But yeah, because life is always making choices, right? So you say A and not B, that means you're going to give something up. Every choice is painful, because it's a decision, it's a cutting, right? Cisare, you decide something, you're cutting something off. So sure, sure, you know, does God want us to have lots of children? Does he want us to have families and have lots of

kids? Or is it different from person to person? Well, I mean, generally speaking, it's a great biblical motif, you know, go forth and multiply and be fruitful. And so God, yeah, I think in the Bible tends to like a big family who sees it as a sign of life and of confidence in God and as a sign of the blessing of God. Now, having said that, of course, every case is unique and different. And I wouldn't want to, hey, if you don't have a lot of kids,

you're not doing God's will, I wouldn't want to, hey, if you don't have a lot of kids, you're not doing God's will. I would never want to say that. But I think generally speaking, you know, God's the God of life. And he's, he likes that kind of fecundity and that, you know, go forth and multiply. It's a sign of his blessing. You brought up in Jordan's talk

where you brought up Grand Torino. And I just, I find that even fascinating to movie that you would watch. Are you a big movie guy? Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I started when we first did the YouTube stuff it was it was Scorsese the departed was the first YouTube I ever did and the movie ones have always been popular whenever I do a movie review and Yes, maybe do anticipate your question a bit. Um, I think Christians who are evangelizers can't afford to be Super squeamish. Like, if a movie has a swear word or, you know, it's got violence in there or something,

we can't be that squeamish. I think we have to enter and look, you know, so many of the great works of the literary tradition, you know, go back to some like Chaucer Dante, it's a Shakespeare. I mean, they're full of bodyness and violence and, you know, so I don't think Gran Turino is that different than some of those great works. But to your point earlier, Gran Turino is the best one I know in the last 50 years of showing in dramatic form what salvation is like, because it's someone that journeys into the darkest place to do two things, to expose the dark powers for what they are,

to bring them out in the open, and to liberate someone who was enthralled to them. But he had to do it through a great act of self-sacrificing love, where he gave his life, and remember, of course, when spoiler alert and everything, when he's shot, and then he's in the attitude of the cross. Well, there's Christianity. When I said, I wasn't expecting it at all. I only knew was this movie purposefully put in there. Right, but about a guy's thing get off my lawn. That's all I knew about that movie.

And as I watched that, my goodness, I have not seen any better presentation because in the church fathers, that's what the cross means. It means the powers are exposed. See, that's why it's so important that taunting thing I talked about. The cross brings them out. So, you know, Bob Dylan, to the enemy, I see where's the cloak of decency. It's always gone that way, right? So Pontch is pilot and Caesar Augustus and quite rinious. That's why the Bible mentions all

those guys because they were the cloak of decency. There's all the leaders of society. The cross rips all the cloaks of, it rips away all that conceals them, right? So they exposes them for what they are. But then it liberates. That's why the cross is freedom for Christians. It liberates us from the dark powers. And that's what that movie is super good at showing, you know? But it has to happen. Look how awfully it has to happen through the complete gift of one's life. There's no other way to do it.

And see, the Eastwood character understands that. He understands. It's gonna cost me my life. But when the kid at the end, members in the grand terino and he's with a big smile driving away from that life, that's the liberation that comes from the cross. Speaking of media, when I work out and I want to lift really heavy, I tend to listen to heavy metal music. And oftentimes you brought that up. And oftentimes you look at the pictures of the covers or whatever and it's like satanic. I know it's media and I don't know if it's real. Any thoughts around that kind of like, do you like heavy metal?

I like, I'm a big rock and roll fan. I'm not so much heavy metal, but what we probably call classic rock. When I was coming of age, you know, like the Beatles and the Stones and the Who and Led Zeppelin and Van Morrison and of course Bob Dylan's my major influence. But yeah, I love rock and roll.

And I like all kinds of musical forms. I was thinking the other day I was watching the country music thing, you know, that Ken Burns did, he did a documentary on country music, and a great segment on Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson. And that's how I got into country music with those two figures. And Willie Nelson, the first record I heard of his was Star Dust. When he did, you know, the American classics, remember that record from a long time ago?

You know, I don't know. But Willie's in that wonderful voice of his and that great guitar work plays the classic American songbook. Well, because I grew up with Rock and Roll, I didn't know those songs at all. And that led me to Frank Sinatra. I discovered Frank Sinatra through Willie Nelson. So anyway, I like all that kind of music. But if I, if I, you really, you know, push me against the wall and say, what do you want

to listen to? It would be Rock and Roll. That's what I like the most. When we, we were talking about the money, the power, honor, is there something that you personally find you have to check yourself with the most that you... Yeah, probably, especially given the way my life is unfolded, honor, you know, because I'm kind of a public figure. And now I've been honored by the church, becoming a bishop and all that

and I'm kind of a public figure. So I suppose that's the danger for something like me. What does that feel like when you feel like you need to check it, does it feel like, oh, this feels good? Yeah, that maybe that being highly thought of is more important than telling the truth. It feels like that.

If I'm holding back on what I think is the right thing to do or say because I'm concerned more about, you know, losing reputation or losing status. Yeah, so but you know Everyone's got employees in somewhere. He's got to name it and and admit it That's the importance of knowing you're a sinner. It's one of the great spiritual paths When you don't then you get in trouble and you you cause trouble for other people too But when you know you're a sinner, then, all right, Lord, take this and transform it.

You know, I'd be bummed if I didn't ask you this. I had heard from somewhere, I think it was like on a Joe Rogan podcast, this guy brought up the fact that a lot of the passages in the New Testament don't really talk about Jesus' laughter. And all these other characteristics in like Jesus' web and like all these other emotions that he evoked,

but laughter wasn't one that was represented. Yeah, I guess we'll never really know, but I'll say this though, when you read the parables and you read the great sermons of Jesus. There's no question that he uses irony and he uses exaggeration and he's playing with contrast. So I can't help but think people were laughing as they heard some of his,

and even the critiques of the Pharisees, the way he characterizes them. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if people laughed with him. And I couldn't imagine he himself wasn't laughing. Now why they didn't put that explicitly in, I don't know. You know, another way to do it, because we have the laughing Buddha, for example,

there's a whole tradition around the, there's the fat Buddha and the laughing Buddha and then the, you know, the silent Buddha and they all are saying something. Jesus came to die. If you wanna do the, he's a teacher, yes indeed, and moral exemplar, yes indeed, but his purpose ultimately was to die,

was to go to the limit of God for sakenness. And so that's kind of a serious business, you know what I'm saying? It's all in there. Yeah. But you know, I remember that years ago, Joseph Campbell, remember him, he's a precursor of Peterson in some ways, but he always loved, it's in Luke, it's one of the synoptic gospels when, as before he goes out to the Gardner-Gutsemini, they sing.

So the last supper closes and they sing, which was the Jewish tradition, you know. And I remember Peter, not Peter's in, but Campbell saying, that's the way to go to meet your death, you go out singing. And so Jesus singing with his disciples, even as he's facing his own death, that's kind of a cool image. Totally, definitely. What are the different arms of the word on fire? Now, is it a company that's separate from the church?

Yeah, no, it's not officially linked to the church. I mean, it's Cardinal George and now Archbishop Gomez have smiled upon it and all that, but we're not officially like an arm of the church. We're 501 C3, so we're independent. Doing the work of the church, trying to serve the church, but we're not officially tied to the church. What are the different arms of it?

I know you have a podcast, you have a YouTube channel. Yeah, so all the different forms of outreach, we got that. But there's also now the Word on Fire Institute, which we found it, and that's the purpose of the institute is to form lay people as evangelizers. So interesting. I'm trying to draw people, and we've drawn now a number of them, as pain customers, you know, so they they get access to specialized videos in

theology, spirituality, evangelism, etc. We brought some wonderful teachers in and we've done You know, we film them teaching and we present these really cool courses and so the Institute members my hope is that they then invade their worlds as evangelizers. And my dream is that that continues to grow and then becomes a national force. So that's an important part of it now. Now, I, you know, we, I, we don't know, I haven't met the entire staff or whatnot, but I've met a few people that work with the word on fire. And it seems like everybody works out.

A lot of them do. Not everybody to be fair. There are some, you know, who are less, less physically developed, but no, it's just, I don't know, uh, five of these, they're built like, they're not just like guys that work out. They're, they're more buff than we are. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, Father Steve, he's my kind of right hand man, and we've been working with me for years. He's always been into, you know, fitness and bodybuilding. And then Joe Glour, who met me my very first day in LA

when I was announced as a bishop and he came up to me and I didn't know him from Adam. And then we kind of just gradually drew Joe into the work of where I fire. Now he's our producer. And he's been for years a serious bodybuilder. And is there a role of physical fitness in spirituality?

Yes, and I would say that for sure, and not that we were planning it that way, everyone's got to be a buff model to be part of runfire. But yeah, circles back to our opening move in this conversation, but absolutely. I think men, son, and corpora, sonos, and old principal, a healthy mind and a healthy body. And especially if you do doing work of evangelization,

I mean, you've got to be fit. I tell the priest theory, I run this pastoral region Santa Barbara and got about 100 and so priests that I'm concerned about. And yeah, their physical fitness is important. I always ask him how you exercising and what are you doing? And you see your doctor and how are you eating? Because it can happen to priests for all kinds of reasons. You get over busy or whatever and you start going

to McDonald's all the time and you know so yeah if you want to stay fit and do the work well you've got to be in good shape. Yeah there's this big I don't know if you've noticed there's this big veganism push but it's a very moral push as if eating animals is wrong and whatnot. Yeah I wouldn't go that far though yeah I wouldn't go that far though. Yeah, I wouldn't push that far. I mean, I respect people that have that conviction, but I wouldn't want to universalize that. So, but mistreating, of course, with these.

Of course, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, again, great podcast every time. Yeah, it should be. It's a very good pleasure. It's all like I talk with so many questions, but as you talk, I literally become dumbfounded and I can't remember after things I want to ask you.

And I think that's, you have that amazing quality. So, I enjoyed very much, guys. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy,

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