Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1680: Muscle Science With Jordan Shallow

Episode Date: November 8, 2021

In this episode Sal, Adam & Justin speak with Dr. Jordan Shallow about muscle, pain and his training certification. What made him want to take on a coaching certification? (2:42) Do we have the ability to out structure bad function? (7:20) The misconception around the definition of stability. (13:00) Why theoretical knowledge without proper application is useless. (15:28) Movement is learning. (22:31) How really good athletes have a high internal motion capture. (27:38) Vibration moves faster than pain. (32:21) Why he teaches a principle-based approach. (38:05) The neurological underpinning of muscle tightness. (43:30) The value in finding the right index for your client. (46:40) The most valuable experience of his certification. (55:22) There is so much wisdom from learning from others. (1:00:32) The challenge of digital etiquette with online coaches. (1:05:10) Is there a portion of the curriculum that he is most proud of? (1:10:57) Why his goal is NOT to confuse his clients. (1:12:13) Did fear ever set in while creating his courses? (1:17:10) The impact a good coach can have on someone’s quality of life. (1:20:42) Related Links/Products Mentioned Visit Pre-Script Level 1 Coaching Certification for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! Visit Sunday's Dog Food for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Promo code “MINDPUMP” at checkout for 35% off your first order** November Promotion: MAPS Anywhere and the Fit Mom Bundle – Both 50% off! **Promo code “NOVEMBER50” at checkout**  ‎RX'D RADIO on Apple Podcasts The Muscle Doc - Dr. Jordan Shallow D.C. The Real Reason Why People MUST Squat Differently Is Warming Up Before A Workout Necessary? - Mind Pump Blog Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Jordan Shallow D.C (@the_muscle_doc)  Instagram Ryan DeBell (@movementfix)  Instagram

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, with your hosts. Salta Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the world's number one fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump, right? Today's episode, we interviewed our friend Jordan Schallow, one of the smartest people in the fitness industry, also a power lifter, and now also the owner and founder of an awesome certification course for trainers and coaches.

But in today's episode, we talked a lot about the human body. We dive deep on adaptation, muscle building, how we feel pain. I mean, if you love the science of the human body, as it relates to adaptation and exercise and fitness, you are going to love this episode. By the way, if you're somebody interested in getting a certification as a trainer,

his certification course, Prescript, is one of the best in the business. In fact, we've partnered with him to offer people something special. So check this out, right? So if you head over to mindpumpel1.com and you get your certification through that link, it will also include a mastering the sale, training with me.

You're as truly, I'll be in there teaching you how to self-fitness and get your clients great results in addition to a phenomenal certification. So again, Jordan Schello, great podcast, really awesome. Now, podcast is brought to you by one of our sponsors, Sundays for dogs. This is dog food that is made with human grade, air-dried dog food.

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and get a fat 35% off your first order. We also have a sale going on this month with some of our workout programs. Maps anywhere is the no gym required workout program. I'll need our resistance bands. That is 50% off right now. And our fit mom bundle, which includes maps anywhere, maps hit, maps endabolic and the intuitive nutrition guide,

is also 50% off. So if you're interested, head over to mapsfitnisproducts.com and use the code November 50. That's November 5.0 with no space for that discount. When I think of certifications that I've taken, it seems like just an incredible undertaking to even come close to creating your own certification. I mean, not teaching the average person out of workout, you're teaching coaches and trainers, had a trainer

of the people, like what made you even want to do that? It just seems like just such an overwhelming undertaking. Yeah, I mean, part of it was the frustration that came with taking a lot of certifications and not really having tangible, actionable takeaways. Like it just exists in theory. And then my frustration mounted and coming out of grad school after not only having every certification under the sun

that was more niche nuance of the fitness community, but also having an undergraduate degree and then a doctorate level degree as well. It's like, this doesn't help me at all. What is it that I can distill out from every course I've taken all the experience that I had at the time and continue to work towards? How can I consolidate that in a way that's actually actionable in a way that doesn't exist just in theory? Training doesn't exist just in theory, because training doesn't exist in theory,

like, every time it's like philosophy in a sense, like, the theoretical part of it just doesn't, it doesn't really exist, it's how it's actually put into practice. So I started writing this manual before the company was even a company. I just wanted to figure out a way to consolidate my thoughts on maybe common misconceptions around training and rehabilitation.

So the more I got into training, the more I just started to write, kind of consolidate my thoughts around, you know, common paradigms around squatting and deadlifting. And then I've got into the therapeutic side through chiropractic college and then as I got into multi-disciplinary practice, it was like, okay, I started talking about the rotator cuff, and I was just right as an outlet of a way to like, you know, if I'm explaining something to do like a patient or something.

So was it more journaling than for you than it was really like actually building a program of time, or did you have the force? Yeah, now it was definitely like, this will be put to work. Like, this is not just me, you know, crying into my pillow, like, I wish the industry understood that.

I was like, no, no, this is gonna be written with the intent and purpose of someday being consolidated. How I had no idea, but I remember sitting, I remember where I was when I was like, okay, this is a sat down. I read an article that pissed me off, and that's, spite is a really powerful motivator. I was like, I hate it, but I was just so mad at myself.

I'm like, why am I spending energy? Just like, God, this guy's so stupid, he doesn't know. I know. I'm like, I have no fucking idea. What am I talking about? But I saw just like, okay, what would be my counter argument to this? Right, what would be a principles-based approach?

And that's something that's kind of like followed. What was the article, do you remember it? Yeah, it was about athletes and squat stances. It was Ryan DeBel actually. I've had him, I've been on his podcast, I've had him on mine and I've actually told him a story. And he's a chiropractor as well. And what was the case he was making?

It was the, and this is actually a cornerstone principle that we try and teach is it was based off of Stu McGill's catarach research around femur head and neck size that dictates like the encapsulation of the femur into the acetabulum, basically like hip joint structure dictating your squat stance. Right. Right. Which like, you know, structure dictating function, function dictating structure, an our ability if we know how to assess for function and scale function appropriately,

our goal should always be to out function bad structure. So I took exception to that from like a strengthening perspective, understanding that there is a intent and purpose behind what we do in the gym that should have a carryover into some system or shape on the field. So the idea that across fit coach at the time,

and like, I don't want this to come off like I'm throwing shade, but like, if, you know, if you're using the word athlete, I think in my mind, it's, you know, you're supporting your family, your kids and your kids' kids. Like, that's what I think of athletes. People are buying your jerseys, they know who you are, you're professional.

So it's like athletes should squat different based off of what we're gonna to MRI everyone's pelvis. And I was like, no, like function can we can out function are predetermined structure. And we see this principle follow itself outside of squatting patterns. And that misconception of structured dictating function. We see that in the rehabilitative setting when we look at low back disc protocols and things like that. It's like, no, you can out function bad structure. So in the case of this first article, really kind of set one of the major tones for the majority of our curriculum is the structure function paradigm, continuum spectrum.

This is such a great point. There's two things that come to mind. I remember training a surgeon who said, if we MRI'd everybody's low back, you would see so many discs that weren't where they're supposed to be and lots of people feeling nothing. And then you'd see people where everything looks perfect and they feel lots of pain. And the second thing you said,

which I think I wanna add to that is, as just a trainer who trained lots of every, I focused on general pop my entire career. And if you told them, yeah, your structure means that you have to work this particular way, then that means they would never try to work on anything outside of that, and they'd stay in that, freaking rigid,

those confines, and I know that that would cause more issues. So I'm so glad that you talked about that. And that's definitely, I think, coming from your experience training other people, will you see that, right? Yeah, and it's coming at it from, because my first sort of like, all right, enough's enough, just me being mad at what I'm seeing on the internet.

That first article was coming from a strength and conditioning perspective. That's really what got me into this to begin with. I was working at the Canadian Olympic training facility in Ontario during my undergraduate. And so when someone who worked at, and again, I don't want this to come off, this is a spiteful like 21-year-old me, not like the slightly less spiteful 31-year-old me, but at the time I was so mad. Like how dare, an O-Lineman is going to squat

like an O-Lineman, because if he didn't squat like an O-Lineman, he wouldn't be an O-Lineman, right? Like a sprinter is going to squat the way a sprinter should squat. Like there are different carryovers, there's different adaptations of shape and system. Like I was just so enraged.

And then like little light in my brain said, hey, dummy, like actually write this stuff down because this guy was smart enough and at least have the balls enough to actually write it down. Because I operated from age of 16 to 21, like, oh, everyone's, oh my god, no one knows what they're talking about. It's like, okay, well then help them know what they're talking about, right? So that was the first thing and looking

and I've never really done a retrospective synopsis of this. Like it's just, I've been living in a crazy whirlwind for the last like five years. But yeah, that principle of structure and function and our ability to out function bad structure, whether from morphology or pathology, which basically means like morphology would be the case of the squat study where it's like, Hey, this is how your hip structure looks. So, you're gonna have buttwind, it's like, well, really? Is it though? Like, can we make it better? Can we improve the underlying function

to negate the contribution of that structure? But also from a pathology standpoint, which is like the disc or like a torn rotator cuff or a torn labrum. And luckily for me, I've put my body through the ringer with competitor powerlifting and sports at a fairly high level. So I've had every injury you can imagine.

And there's time and place for surgery and or structural intervention, but I've been lucky enough to be able to navigate this on a purely functional perspective. But a lot of times when the fitness industry hears function, it's almost a bad word, right? And rightfully so, like the shit that gets sold off is being functional, it's just like,

you know, your camouflage TRX straps hanging by your oak tree, it's like, oh my God. Balancing on a dinodinus. Right, so it's like, you want to do shoulder presses when you curl? Right, and a functional. One of the early challenges that I had was defining fun. It's like, all right, well, if I'm going to start as a parent, like one of the core paradigms

is function structure. It's like, I need to clearly define both, right? So the first chapter of the book and the first lectures and the course of all our courses are all about language. Because, you know, you have a different training experience. You have a different, you know, inception into exercise. So when I say something, I can't presuppose that you are thinking the same thing, right? If you were up in a place where they called apples oranges, and I said apples, and I gave you an apple, you're like, what the hell is

this? Well, this is an apple. It's like, oh no, our apples are this. It's like, well, I know that's an orange. I've never understood why textbooks have the glossary at the end. So I was like, I'm going to put an end to that. So the first chapter is, because it's like, oh, I read all of this stuff, but this is what all the words meant at the end. So shouldn't that be at the beginning? So getting on the same page is what the first part

of the course is all about. And the first chapter of the book is like, hey, even if people disagree, it's like suspend your disbelief, suspend your current definition for 16 weeks, abide by these definitions for the next four months and see if this doesn't start to make sense. Right. So, in defining function, kind of as how our body operates when we walk and breathe, sort of our two preeminent functions, like try and tie anything back to that, that's not functional.

Like if it ties into the way our gate cycle functional. If it ties into the way, our gate cycle works, and if it ties into the way that our breast cycle or ventilation cycle works, probably functional. Outside of that, then it's the defining structure, and structure kind of exists on a continuum of active depressive. What is the difference between bone, ligament, fascia, muscle, tendon, nervous system?

What's like one is extremely active, so your function starts with your central nervous system, and one is extremely passive, right? Your bones, your skeleton. In between there is just a gradient of an ability to create stability essentially, and that led me in my next definition. It's like, okay, well, how do you define stability?

Stability versus strength, and so really the first chapter is just going through and taking, you know, what we almost, we always just like, we just accept them as understood definitions in the industry, but clearly defining what these terms mean and then taking four months and implementing these definitions across.

So function and stability, what were like the top ones you see misused all the time in terms of like just thrown out there in the fitness industry. Yeah, so stability is one that really almost I've had to defend and that defending stability as a separate training adaptation is a large part of what shaped the level two course because I had to dive a little bit more into the central nervous system and how the peripheral and central nervous system interact. So we'd actually dive into the role of the mechanical receptor, which is, again, people

might think that it might be a little bit too deep. It's like, all right, what's it worth to you? You know what I mean? More people, especially in the Silicon Valley, can tell you how your phone works. like down to the ones and zeros, but we don't know our own movement source code Like that to me is a big problem So it's really digging down to the ones and zeros the stability to answer your question is one that I Probably had to dedicate the most amount of time to because there's the greatest amount of pushback or the greatest amount of Misconception around the definition.

Like, strengthen your stabilizers is something that we just accepted. I accepted. I've been seeing physical therapists or carpractors since I was 10, maybe 10, 11, or as old enough to hurt myself playing sports. And you know, I got sent home with the same rotator cuff, super spinatus, empty can, cable extra, and oh, I graduated to the yellow therapy. And it's like, God, give me strength, or don't, give me stability,

it might be a better word. But the idea is like these paradigms just clashed, and they clashed, because we didn't realize that there were different adaptations, right? So going down, again, this is more for the level two, but like going down to the level of the mechanics or stuff, like what is a muscle spindle?

What is proprioception? How is it that these can help us map our internal environment, create like an internal motion capture, and like, you know, we talk, dive a little bit more into pain in level two, but in the level one, that's something that we spend a lot of time in. Like, there's time, distance, and load, is our major means of progression for normal conventional resistance training and trying to build strength or a list of hypertrophy But there's deviation of center of mass and limitation of base of support Right, which is how we make something more and or less stable Which allows us to scale off a different reference point right to create different indexes

So I always think of like the big three model is one that comes up a lot It's probably one that you guys have talked with them a gill big Three, right? Is this? Yeah, how was it for you to distill all this down to like because whenever you talk about anatomy and physiology, you always want to play Beethoven, and I'm always trying to get you to play Chopsticks. And so I can't imagine and I know you're writing this as an educational tool. So how did you take a lot of the information that you know true and make it very applicable to the trainer who's trying to learn all this stuff? Yeah, I mean, the resource is help,

but I think just speaking in analogies, like speaking in comparisons, like dragging things out to like real world application helps. Like I think it's necessary to be able to kind of wield the language properly, but at the end of the day, it's reps and sets. Right, so that's always what we try and bring it back to. Like the theoretical knowledge

without practical application is completely useless. Actually, I was gonna touch on that, one of the reasons why we early on, when we found you on Instagram years ago, why we liked you is because, and this is not really, I guess, talked about often, but there's oftentimes academia in fitness and experienced fitness coaches are at odds. Like you'd have, I know this, managing gyms, I get the trainer that came in, master's degree, and you know, whatever, you know, understands biomechanics and sports medicine.

And then I got this trainer who's been training for four years and the four year trainer would kick the crap out of you. But the other guy coming in would have some great knowledge as well that we could use with the experience. You kind of have both, right? You've got all kinds of tremendously educated, formally. You were a competitive powerlifter and you worked with athletes and you had lots of clients. And so it sounds to me like you had to, I mean, what was that like combining the two?

Because you said things, you talked about context off air quite a bit before we got on the podcast, you were talking about context and how important that is. That's, to me, sounds like the experienced trainer side of you is trying to apply this information and bring it into, okay, here's how we apply it to, you know, the person that we're working with. I think a lot of it comes, like, in speaking and analogy and comparison, is I have like a lot of skin in the game, and I think that sort of proof of concept

that like I'm not just saying this and then going back to my office and writing more things, it's like I'm saying this and I'm gonna use these principles when I train X, Y and Z or myself, right? So, and having a fair breadth of experience and depth of experience across different populations, the difficult part then becomes, you know, when we're in a class, it's trying to identify and speak to everyone. Someone's, because we have academics, we've had medical doctors, we've had orthopedic surgeons,

we've had physical therapists, we've had chiropractors. But then we've had these industry giants that have been in the game forever, that again, if I had to have my mom be trained by someone, I'm gonna go to these guys, right? Because they've been able to at least prove what they know, right? So it's about taking this guy who thinks he knows everything,

who with the masters or the PhD. It's about taking this guy who thinks he knows everything, right, who with the masters or the PhD. And meaning like, look, this is what, this is how foam rolling works at a mechanical receptor level. This is, you know, it's not breaking up scar tissue. Let's understand mechanisms of correction. But guess what, if your client wants to foam roll, guess what you're gonna be doing, foam roll. Right, like you're foam roll on his birthday,

you're gonna foam roll on Jesus' birthday, you're gonna foam roll on your mother's birthday. We might make look a little bit deeper, like from a mechanistic perspective, like, okay, why is a three-year-old tubule band feels tight? What attaches to the other tubule band? The TFL, the glute me, the glute max. Okay, what could be out of balance with the pelvis to create this undue tension that forces this convergence, this, this thought that there might be an injury present. It's like, well, how do we manipulate like the biomechanics?

How do we manipulate the nervous systems, wanting this for from self preservation perspective to move through efficient paths of least resistance? Right? So it's like kind of talking to them and nerd speak, but also being like, look nerd, like you want no one cares us smart you are, right? It's one of those in half of the course is like in talking to that cohort or that side of the spectrum is, you know, no one cares what you know until they know that you care.

And that's really, you know, in some classes, that's what I have to drill home more than anything else. Like I'll be trying to pull magic tricks on other magicians from an academic perspective. It's like, oh, yeah, I know this study. I'll be trying to pull magic tricks on other magicians from an academic perspective. It's like, oh, yeah, I know this study. I know this study. I know this study. It's like, do you know that sometimes none of it matters? Like, do you know that? And then there's other times where it's like, you know, we'll have like, okay, why do we foam roll or why do people like foam roll? It's a break-up scar tissue. It's like, does it though? But, you know what, it would take,

lawyers of research on how much pounds per square inch it would take to actually deform the college and deposition of scar tissue. So we're not. So it's like trying to talk to both sides. But the thing is it's not, when you deal with human beings, it's not linear, right? So whenever, and I like to build relationships

between two things, like I'll explain a bench press by talking about the criteria of the closest available grip width that makes sense and the widest available grip width that makes sense. And allow people to use these principles of both bookends to put a client in there and they're like, okay, I'm probably going to suggest more towards the wide mechanic versus the narrow mechanic. But with people, it's not linear. You have this whole fucking different dimension of experience.

So that's been probably as the courses evolved. Been one of the things that has to spend the most amount. I'll go back and watch facial expressions when I say things. I'm like, who am I losing? All right, where is he from? Go what's his Instagram account? What does he do? Yeah, they're both important, right?

Knowing that something works is important, but also knowing why it works. I know that if I hold my handstring in a stretch, it's going to, I'm going to temporarily improve its flexibility. Now I may think I'm making my muscle longer, which some people may say, oh, you're making your hamstring longer, but knowing that it's a central nervous system thing that's happening helps me because then I can do other things to help the mother rest of my body, I understand the why, not just the fact that it actually works. So that's a very important thing to explain, I think.

Yeah, it's reiteration that we take like a principles first approach, right? So like evidence is, the word evidence-based have kind of been misconstrued because a proper evidence-based model is based off of clinicians or a trainer's experience, the best practice in research, and also the values of the client or athlete they're working with.

So those three pillars prop up what should be evidence-based. Now evidence-based and research-based are often conflated. A lot of people claim like, oh, this is evidence-based, and then just start spouting just starts spouting off research. All the only thing that that proves is you know how to read. I can read articles, but it's being able to extrapolate and sometimes interpolate what's actually being said in the research and how does that actually hold water when you apply it. So extracting principles from research is really kind of how we go about navigating these situations. I don't want to just, it's not a system.

It's like a systems way of thinking. That's something that we always reiterate. Is this why you emphasize so much on the live, like labs, and you know, when you, because your certifications, one of the differences, I think, is that you do a lot of these live coaching and labs, constantly live. Like people are on there right now. It's not a recording that was recorded five years ago. Is that why you're so big on that?

Yeah, because we'll start to see different classes. So we teach for the level one, or I teach the level one twice a week. It's the same lecture for both times. And the reason is we want to accommodate for those coaches overseas. We have a large contingent in the Middle East, a large contingent in Hong Kong,

a large contingent in Australia. So we're trying to accommodate for that live experience. And for those who miss, they go up in their portal and they can watch the recording from the week. But it's yeah, you really want to read the room, right? No different than doing like a live lecture or a seminar or seminar presentation or something. There's a level that you'll find that the room resonates at.

And you can see if you're paying attention. Plus, it helps you learn how to coach the coaches. Just like training clients. And that's where I've spent a lot of my time. I'm not an educator formally, but I've also been sitting in lecture halls for a better part of a decade. So I have a lot of experience with education methods that work. So there's a lot that goes into it.

You're a nerd that looks like a bodybuilder. I mean, I think that's probably very accurate. Yeah, I mean, I've started to like more the process of learning as a different adaptation. So almost looking at it like the same way I would look at because that's what really what movement is is learning and that's what great athletes are. Great athletes just learn really fast. Bro, you gotta explain that a little bit

because I don't think people are getting, because what you're saying is extremely true and very profound when I first figured that out. Like when you're moving and you're training or practicing what I like to say, practicing exercises, you are learning. Your body is learning just like you're moving and you're training or practicing, what I like to say, practicing exercises, you are learning, your body is learning, just like you're reading something and learning information.

So it didn't click with me, and you guys probably had it click earlier, because you did all of kids know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, wow, dude. Yeah, great. You're gonna get there soon, bro. I'm just gonna stay with one of the girls for a moment.

See, see what you're gonna do. Oh, wow, wow. they're out here, man. A little singer right there. Time stands out. That's gonna get off of the director's lawyer. So I'll just go up here. No, no, so my sister has a niece. I was able to meet through COVID,

a flu to Australia last March. And you know, through, was able to jump through a few hoops and get from Melbourne to Townsville. Long story short, it's my first real exposure with an infant. I don't know, like what do I do? It's just it, I still say it, it's fucking terrible.

She did, you know, there's, she was maybe two months old. It's a point where they don't have a face yet. You know what I mean? Like, it's a face, it has the features of a face. But it's like, you get cute for like six months. But it's like, you know, if one of them committed a crime, the police lineup would be impossible. I don't know, it was the sort of purpley one.

It's like all kind of, anyway, sort of, but like, my daughter said that it just look like potatoes. That's what she said. They're like little aliens. Exactly. But as I, even in the few weeks weeks I was with my sister and my niece, I was able to just see the changes. Fast, crazy.

Yeah. And her with technology is wild. And this is a scary thing. That's the real ghost in the machine. Like her with an iPad, I was like, holy shit. She's just putting all this together. And you see it in real time. And last summer, I was lucky enough to work in a facility

where I was just one-on-one with a lot of very high profile NFL athletes. And there's one dude, I've told the story before, so I don't feel uncomfortable with it. I was working with Leonard Fordnet of the Tampa Bay Buckingean areas. And I was going through like a drill and it was very skill-based. It was

very practice-based. Like someone like that, you just, you just make sure you're just tripled over shit. Like that's really where your job is. Like we're not going to hurt them. That's a guy's 2.45 runs a 4.5. 4.8. Or he lags fucking insane. It's an absolute freak. But, you know, and there's different tools that I'll use to expedite the movement learning process that are heavily based on like the principles we teach around Mechanore separativity and the central nervous system. So it's just kind of going through and the progressions that would take a mortal six months eight months. He did in six reps

But like and I but I saw it like I saw it in his eyes I saw it in like the disappointment of hitting a wall. The disappointment of, I know what I need to do and I've just not routed it properly in my brain. So I know there's a wall there. So I'm gonna just watching that and I just thought on my knees right away and I was like, this is insane. Because it was as fast and out of patient like,

oh, that's all athletes are. Is they just learn really fast? Right, but it's brilliant. I remember when training regular everyday clients, I could always tell if someone had an athletic background, but the first exercise I taught them, just by giving cues and seeing that, the wheels turn, and then their body also snap into it. It's like, nine, not how do you put that into words? Like, what do you attribute that to mostly C&S? Obviously, there's a genetic component with that person, right? That they have that ability to do that. Is it mostly C&S? What would you attribute that to mostly C&S? Obviously, there's a genetic component with that person, that they have that ability to do that.

Is it mostly C&S? What would you attribute that to? And how would you articulate that? Yeah, I think a lot of it would be developmental milestones as a kid, would be big. This is why you seek so many common threads. I'll ask a question, I already know the answer. If you want your kids to be good athletes,

what is the one sport you're gonna put them in? Yeah. Gymnastics. Right? He's like, we got it right now. I'm sitting in a room with three macho dudes and we all unequivically go two to up. Let's fucking roll. That's gonna be, but why?

And this is where the deeper principles of mechanical receptivity and central nervous system activity really come into play. Like, good athletes. I always use the comparison of, you know who Andy circuses. So Andy circus, yeah, you'd know the name. He's the actor that plays smegle in Lord of the Rings, like a little controversy character.

So when we look at, and maybe another more modern example that people wouldn't know is how they record for like NBA 2K, whatever, right? So he's motion capture, right? Yeah, all the like ping pong balls on the like pursuit, and everyone's covered. So we take for granted that our body has an ability to do that, right?

That right now, without really too much thought, I can think about my pinky toe and get feedback. So I can almost, I can create an internal motion capture, right? So really good athlete, it's just have a high resolution internal motion capture. So it's understanding good athlete, it's just have a high resolution internal motion capture. So it's understanding, and when we think about these ping pong balls,

there you go, Doug's got to pull it up there. If you go into, if you go into images, there'll be one where he's on a rock and the smegel character's fully rendered. But if you think about what these ping pong balls are, it's like, well, they're sending transmission

to central processing, which is a computer, but in our bodies, central processing is our brain. But what are the make-ups? What is the anthropomorphized version of these transmitters sending to the central receiver? It's like well, in our body, their mechanical receptors. So we maybe hear things like Golgi-Tenin organ reflex. Golgi-Tenin organ is pretty common, muscle spindle, more common, or less common than GTO,

but more common than let's say like a refini ending, if I say Merkel's disc, if I say Meisner's core posses, if I say Pesinian core posses, all of these are different modes of transmission back into the brain. They give us an ability to track our motion capture where our body is in space. I think of some of the best plays of all time are the no look.

We talked about OVJ earlier, the helmet catch, where he can't see it, but how does he know where his hand is? It's like, well, he's getting these peripheral inputs back to central process, so it's the seeing without seeing. Understanding how to elicit these mechanical receptors in a way that is systematic, maybe figuring out which ones are offline. And it's so funny when you look at a list of mechanical receptors, the slowest mechanical receptor we have is no exception, which most people know is pain. Right, so pain moves anywhere between six to 30 meters per second.

Then if you go up in the list, there's four that move around 30 to 75. Is this why when you touch something hot, you move your hand before you feel the pain? Yeah, but heat slower than proprioception. Okay. Right? So that's a perfect example, but there's like three classifications based off of nerve fiber. And keep pulling me back into reality so people can actually extract value from this.

But to me, this is like the most underlying cool concept about biomechanics and most people miss. Because classically, mechanics gets taught, and this is one of the definitions that we harp on very early in the course, is, you know, if I were to draw a stick figure of someone squatting, most people call that biomechanics, right? The sagittal steves, you know, like someone's there explaining why their chest is on their knees and their low bar squat. It's like, what is that picture missing?

It's two dimensional picture of a four dimensional being. So we move through the tri-planar model, but we also move through dimension of time, right, which a lot of people miss, and that's biomechanics, right? What we get passed off with moment arms and levers and all this other shit, that's just classical mechanics, that's physics. And the one thing between bio and mechanics or biomechanics and mechanics, that biopiece indicates life. And the central nervous system is the integral part. So understanding how to map the central nervous system is the underpinning of biomechanics.

I remember reading an article in scientific American years ago and it talked about the physics and the and scientific American years ago, and it talked about the physics and the computations required to throw a crumpled piece of paper into a waste basket, which most kids can do by the time they're four years old or five years old. And it was like this, the physics in the timing and how to adjust what you're doing, I mean, we don't even realize just how complex this is. But I want to know how all of this is valuable to the coach. Because you're explaining a lot, by the way,

I love it because I think this is just fascinating. I love learning this kind of stuff. But now I'm a coach, I'm a trained people. How would I take this awesome, fun information but use it in a way to help me try and coach them? And well, that's, yeah, we'll get on track for that. So pain slowest, right? We have like these Myzner's Dis, Merkel's Dis, Myzner's, yeah, we'll get on track for that. Yeah. So pain slowest, right? When we have like these mysens,

this merkels, corp, our, merkels, this mysens corp, pussles, piscinian corp, pussles, refini endings, and then we get into Golgi tendon organ and muscle spindle. So if we organized those in the list from pain at the top in GTO and muscle spindle

at the bottom, and we had like the bulk of weird ones that no one's ever heard of in the middle, and we looked at what each one of them does. Well, no exception, relay's pain. Then we have these four or five. There's a couple more that are a little less. What do they relay? Well, they relay a transmission back to central processing

of vibration, of deep pressure, of skin stretch, of heat. And then ultimately, then they move at a certain speed. They move 30 to 75 meters per second. And then ultimately, at the end, GTO and muscle spindle get transmitted through what's called A alpha fibers, which moves 60 or 120, 130 meters per second. Right. Way fast. Really. And think like you say in bolt, max velocity is probably what it runs 100 meters in 10 seconds. But max velocity probably moving 17 meters 18 maybe a little bit more than that, 321,

no, 17, 18 meters per second maybe. So really fast, if we think Goldie tendon organ and nocy, or Goldie tendon organ and muscle spindle are moving upwards of 135 meters per second. If we look at what elicits these middle wrong adaptations, what did I say, vibration? So vibration moves faster than pain. So anyone that's Theragun's or in every fucking gem across the world right now, and they're selling him for six, what did I say, vibration? So vibration moves faster than pain. Is there any wonder that the air guns are in every fucking jam

across the world right now, and they're selling it for sick? What is that? Okay, I got a question to ask you about that. It's hard to interrupt. Starting to head of the pain. Those vibrating plates, so I remember when those became a big thing, nice to laugh at them. And then I remember trying them out and realizing that I could

get into mobility positions and that normally would hurt, but because of the vibration, because what it was doing to my CNS, or I'm sure you can explain this a little better, I was able to get into better positions, hold them then when I was not on it. And then when they got off of it, now I've got this kind of new learned pattern. It's because of faster transfer. Because it's faster, it's faster than pain. Right.

Yeah. And that's how you apply it. Yeah, that's so fascinating. I've never heard anyone communicate it like that before. Yeah, so much better than when I say it. I mean, it's a little bit long with you. I see a lot of chastics. You still saw a lot of training though.

But at the end of the day, it's just if we understand that mechanism, but no one has to my knowledge and not to pump my own tires, just like I've lost enough sleep over the last decade to try and figure out why. Because I lost the ego that came with what I thought I knew. And I was like, look, I'm a dumbass cause I didn't think of

Theragod. I remember doing a presentation at Theragod was one of the sponsors, flamed them. The complain right there was a booth of people, like maybe 10 feet away. And I was doing like a keynote talk. I was like, don't look at these guys. But I'm like, yeah, look at them. They're making, you know, hyper. So the question is though is, I mean, it's getting transmitted I'm like, yeah, look at them. They're making, you know, hyperhiking or whatever.

So the question is though, is, I mean, it's getting transmitted faster. Therefore, it feels like it is working, but is it actually doing anything that is, well, let's continue. Right. So we have vibration. There's a temporary effect. Yeah. So we have vibration.

We have deep pressure stimulus, foam rollers, right? Within a year, they were in every commercial gym all over the place. It's like, we can look at like the very focal, very regional potential tissue adaptation. We can miss the mark and we can go, oh, it's not doing what we're saying. It's doing something, right?

Like you can't keep these things on the shelves. Everyone has one of these. It's like, they work, we just need to figure out how. And this is how, right? So they elicit a different nerve ending that essentially just beats transmission back into the somatosensory cortex right so when our body is creating this internal motion capture you know if that if that little ping pong ball on the like receipt of our motion capture system was offline or not polished like it's essentially reflexes it happens in our autonomic nervous system.

That if it wasn't polished, then we're getting an error message, right? Our receiver asks for a transmission and it gets an error message, 404, for Bidden Page not found. And what is in this place, it's a pain, it's no deception. It's that's like 30 meters per second. So we fill it in until it goes away.

But now as we work through vibration, deep pressure, heat, skin stretch, tape, right? Yep, Los Gautos is 20 minutes away. Right, rock tape has been crushing it. They, you know, 2000 Olympics in London, every beach volleyball player was head to toe, and it's, you know, people can talk about old, empathic drainage, it's like,

they're explaining it wrong. Oh, but it, and it's like, I think you, and maybe they don't know, and if they do, hey, email me and we'll talk, but like, if you could just, another sensor of the skin stretch. It's a skin stretch, man. And you could look at the same thing

with like, instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization. Accupunk sure is a big one. Yes, right? And because you take for granted, like the magnitude of change, like think of hormones signaling. You know how little, like, epinephrine it takes to get you fucking charged up and ready to go? It think of hormones signaling. You know how little like epinephrine it takes to get you fucking charge up and ready to

go. It's the same thing. Mechanoreceptivity is just a really efficient way to drive peripheral adaptation. So when we move outward and this is where we start to get out of these temporary fixes and into the solutions is when we actually level up in speed, when we go to Golgi 10 and Oregon and that's why for the longest time, longest time, and I was met with this going through Chiropractic College and early in my career as I worked corporate, it was like,

there's just such an auto association between this hurts what's the stretch, right? And it was like, but it had to like language persist for a reason, it persists because it works. Yeah, I see, I got it, I'm gonna add more to this because what you're talking about right now is so, so brilliant and I'm so glad you're going in this direction and here's some of the ways

that I would apply it, for example. You use foam roller as a great example. When foam rollers first hit the scene, I've been in the fitness industry long enough to remember, you know, before foam roller, so BF and then after foam roller. And it was everywhere, all of a sudden. And it did work. But then I realized what you were talking about is it didn't fix anything because we didn't understand how it worked.

We knew it worked. You foam roller IT band, foam roller hips. Wow, my squats don't hurt anymore. Now I can squat deep and I got better form. But then I got a foam roll every single day. What the hell is going on? Obviously I'm not breaking down adhesions because why are they coming back? Like what the hell is, and then I realized this must be effect in the CNS to the point where you don't feel the pain

you're moving differently. What if I combine this, and this is just my own understanding, what if I combine this with correctional exercise or with exercise that then we'll solve the root issue? Because the foam rolling allows me now to do a movement that they couldn't do before, because of the pain. Once I did that, then my clients were able to slowly stop using the foam roller.

That's why it's so important to know how something works, not just the fact that it works. Yeah, it's the principles approach. Just piggybacking off that. GTO, so Gold just had to work in is like the stretch receptor that's in the tendon, and muscle spindle are transmitted the fastest by, you know, the order of magnitude, right? Like it's almost double in speed at a hundred and twenty-one hundred and thirty-five meters per second.

So we know Golgi tendon organ, right? We get that. It makes sense to us. Stretching is very an easy concept because then, well, the neurological input and the actual output are the same thing. Like, oh, stretching. Oh, well, if I move this from here to here, it's like, yeah, it's pretty much what I'll do it.

But there's some muscles that are really hard to stretch. Stretch a multivitus effect. Right? So it's like stretch a rotatory stretch a, you know, a trache raider. Right. There's so many other muscles that will peripherally come to tension first. And then, you know, this is where the course is broken up through shoulder hip and spine, where we spend a lot of time emphasizing, you know, the deep spinal musculature rotatories,

multifitus, erectors, transversal spine allos group. We can go into more detail about that later. Rotator cuff, serrated santeria for the shoulder, lateral rotator group, obterator, pure form of a salute mead for the hip. And then we look at, okay, we can have all of these temporary fixes in the lesser order adaptations that come with these different mechanical receptors, these mercles, these Meisner's corpuscles, Pocinian corpuscles, refining endings, these slower 35 to 70 meters per second. But how is it that we elicit a muscle spindle reflex? core muscles, refining the endings, these slower 35 to 70 meters per second, but how is it that we elicit a muscle spindle reflex?

And this is where proprioception really comes on board, and this is where understanding that internal motion capture model of how it is that our body sees movement in space, sees ourself as we move, like one of the best ways to improve range of motion for me is just to have someone looking a mirror. I can get someone 23% deeper in a squat just why I haven't looking a mirror. Because my murderers exist in gyms, it's not because we're trying to see our body.

Well, yeah, but it's a great tool, but it's a better master, right? So it's like I want to use that as a stepping stone because I can allow, and we get deeper into cerebellar function with the level two. Again, for a principal's focus of like, hey, really all of this comes down to when you start with a client, maybe have them look in the mirror to use their, or such visual creatures, right? Like, dogs, you probably want to associate smell or hearing as a, as a cue that you would use or a reward system, but we're, you know, of the five, the most dominant. Right.

It's, it's embedded into more lobes of our brain than it's not. So when we look at using the visual field to help us help an impaired internal motion capture system with this external augmentation and vision, then it's like, okay, we get to the level of muscle proprioception at the muscle, that's what muscle spindles do. They relay proprioception,

they are autonomic muscle contractions. When I say, hey, flex my bicep, hey, flex my gastroc or my calf, that has started here. This started in my pre and primary motor cortex where if I have a kettlebell over my head and my arms kinda doing this, or if I'm standing on one leg

and my hip and my knee are kinda doing this, those muscle contractions are not starting here. They're actually starting at the muscle itself, right? And that's where muscle spindle reflexes come in. And that's faster than the brain. Well, yeah, that's faster than the preliminary refining's merkle's disc, all the lesser mechanical receptors.

So that's the one we miss, because we go through this continuum of like, you know, form rolling and we try and integrate it in, but a lot of times we go right to strengthening, to kind of like the misnomer of strengthen your stabilizers. So if it's one thing to just go, you know, throw a lacrosse ball and your supersonic, it's all of a sudden, your abduction feels painless, right?

Like you raise your arm, you're like, oh wow, that's so crazy, what a magic little lacrosse ball. It's like, well, no, now it's like, we've opened up to that, that a alpha fiber ability, that muscle proprioception now actually load, but not strengthen.

I don't want you to go through an empty can, now that you've put a lacrosse ball through your supersonic as I want you to actually put an unstable load in an unstable position, right? I want you to elicit that, what's called a retrograde muscle contraction, rather than an antrograde. So you're training the spindle to really, really,

really learn how to stabilize on its own. Yeah, okay. Yeah, speaking back to the the mechanical receptors and all the different techniques up there that you would see like probably have some value for you know addressing those different specific characteristics. Do you have that all outlined in terms of a coach coming in and like being able to kind of assess and walk through their client?

Like what was that like programming look like? Yeah, so it's just about what they respond to, right? Like there are some athletes that if you give them access to the visual field because all of this happens at the deeper level at the cerebellum. So I don't know how deep we want to go into this, but the cerebellum breaks down into three parts. So the three parts of the cerebellum, and we can look at the cerebellum like our movement brain. That's really what it does. And the interesting thing about the cerebellum breaks down into three parts. So the three parts of the cerebellum, and we can look at the cerebellum like our movement brain. That's really what it does. And the interesting thing about the cerebellum, if you look at like what it's responsible for,

one of the underlying things that you'll see in every neuro textbook is it's a responsible for tone, which is like again, another bad word, right? Tone, we want like the long tone muscles like, that's not what it means. But it, no, it's not what it means. Like I think of it this way, no, it's not what it means. Like, I think of it this way.

Like, let's say we have a stairbell and that's the base of our brainstem. Let's say it because that's, that's, that's true. Yeah, right? So hypothetically, if, let's think of these peripheral mechanical receptors like, like emergency lights in a building, right? So, you know, power gets knocked out, buildings on fire. There's just these two fuck off real bright lights that just illuminate the entire room.

If the generator's down, it doesn't matter. Illuminate the place to get people to fuck out. Inefficient is all hell, bright is all hell. Oh god, like I'm just trying to get the fuck out of here. I'm really glad those lights are burning that bright so we can illuminate this entire space. Let's say they run some ridiculous amount of volts or watts or whatever the hell

and they're just sucking through. They're not efficient. They're not efficient. But in case of no emergency, we don't need this thing blasting on like, blinding us as we walk through, right? So in normal day to day, it would be better if we just had like, you know, maybe like a little lamp in the corner, maybe we open the, open the blinds,

let's light it from outside. And the key is your body knowing when to use what? Right. And it's just the efficiency that comes with it, right? So in this comparison, our cerebellum, people who are tight, people who rest in high tone, right? It's as if like our cerebellum is this master dimmer switch and that a lot of times the dimmer switch is turned all the way up, meaning that we're just illuminating from the cerebellum and our tone is really high.

The default is too, is not efficient, it's too high. Well, it's just trying to illuminate these unresponsive peripheral mechanosophactors, right? That aren't illuminating back to us in a situation. Oh, I see, so it's a compensation. Yeah, it could be seen as like a neurocompensation. Unresponsive peripheral mechanosophagus, right? That aren't illuminating back to us in an assume of that. Oh, I see. So it's a compensation. Yeah, it could be seen as like a neuro compensation. It's like, hey, let's not, and this is where you talked

about like the neurological underpinning of muscle tightness. Yeah. That high tone doesn't start at the level of the muscle. It starts at the level of the cerebellum because that high tone, that tight muscle is a response to a lack of that cumulative illumination coming from these, what otherwise should be much more efficient feedbacks into the cerebellum, which are the mechanics of the process.

You know, Jordan, with this really, for me, what's bringing up was, and I remember learning this or just realizing this as an early trainer, it was so much of what you're dealing with when you're training with someone is not conscious for them. This is not like, they're not thinking. In fact, one of the issues I used to have early on as a trainer is people would say, oh, correct your posture. This is what good posture looks like. This is what you need to do.

I'm like, okay, that's great when you remember to do that, but who the hell wants to constantly be conscious of their posture all the time? That's stressful and it's like me telling you, you know, think of blinking and all of a sudden you're like stressed out because not You're thinking every time you blink. Most of this is all unconscious and what you're trying to do is train the These unconscious functions to work really well, which is why it's what you're talking about so important to understand It's and it's quantifiable right because if we look mass and basis of port, we can begin to maybe not interpret an actual quantifiable magnitude, like a value of like Newton meters of force of instability.

But we can start to grade exercises as more or less stable, more or less likely to elicit this muscle proprioception reflex, this fastest muscle spindle illumination, this very efficient way to reduce tone into the cerebellum and ultimately, like throughout the entire system. So the big three model is a classic case that we'll use a lot. The big three is the side plank, the bird dog, and the curl up, right? Shaffer, last name.

Okay, so let's do this. There's a little thought experiment. I've been in chiropractic as a profession for six, six, seven years now, and the majority of people that come to me will be like, hey, I have low back pain, for example, we'll say, I've tried everything. I've done the Burdaug curl up side play. Now that is a very, if we look at the two parameters of base of support in center of mass, those three exercises will, to a certain degree, elicit instability

through three planes of movement, right? Flexion extension, which is the curl up. Lateral flexion, which is the side plank, and then burdog is anti-rotation, right? So when we talked about biomechanics being four dimensions, the tri-planar model, that's the three planes we move through, and then the dimension of time. So if we're going to create an index of exercises based off of the reference point of core stability, meaning that progressively as we move through these exercises, and we can use

these subheadings of bird dog curl-up side plank as representatives of very remedial entry level versions of anti-lateral flexion for side plank, anti-rot remedial entry level versions of anti lateral flexion for side plank, anti rotation for bird dog and anti flexion extension for curl up. And we can say, how is it that with these constraints to movement that we can open up the constraints incrementally to either deviate center of mass and or minimize basis support and codify how much input is actually going to be working at that reflexive level of that muscle spindle to create a less stable internal environment

for us to resist force again. So in other words, how can I take these movements and tweak them for the individual to elicit the adaptation that you're talking about? Right, so let's run out one, right? Let's go with rotation. Bird Dog is probably the anti-rotation movement, like movement around like the Y axis,

or the transverse plan. It's probably the most difficult for most people to self-organize. And there's a lot of under-let-lying reasons as to why that's the case. But let's look at the bird dog. How would we make a bird dog less stable? It's like, well, we could deviate center of mass

and or limit-based support. We don't get better at anti-rotation by doing more bird dogs or holding the bird dog for longer or waiting the bird dog. So my delth has to now resist again. I guess so stupid, right? So I can just manipulate those two factors. So if the bird dog is in a quad-reprep position, well maybe I go from a bird dog to a bear crawl. Now it's dynamic. Now we're deviating center of mass and limiting our base support, right? Maybe I go standing Contra or opposite load a single leg RDL or single arm dumbbell, right? Like if I pull a heavy enough single arm dumbbell row lots of anti-rotation right the

Deave the combined deviation or the deviation of our combined center of mass in me and the dumbbell so What often we get left with and this is where like the underlying tenets of stability or something to your question maybe 20 minutes ago. I mean, with something that's a little bit of a full circle. We're coming closer. Probably the one that's the hardest to comprehend, but yields the most return as it works at this highest order, most difficult, least accessible, appropriate reception at the level of muscle spindle, is really just a matter of looking at different reference points for indexing

exercises. So this is something that we'll walk through and I'll have this when week seven of the chorus will be like, Hey, right? Side plank curl up bird dog. But think about bird dog. How would you make a bird dog more stable? Dead bug, right? Because now we have a broader base support.

Right. So I would actually save that index starts with dead bug. Yeah, that's a bird dog, right? So now I'll use the last name analogy. It's often times when we prescribe exercise, especially from a clinical perspective, but I see it equally as sort of thoughtlessly prescribed and trying to get it in something,

bodybuilding, whatever. Like every time I see a paddle off press, like just a small part of my brain dies. I just can't, especially with like, basketball athletes. It's like this guy anti-rotates people. But yeah, it's not a band. And the substantial amount of players here. And that's, yeah, it's pretty cool.

This guy's gonna pick and roll LeBron. He's 285. This is a yellow Thera band, like it's ridiculous. But let's say that a PAL press exists in a continuum of anti-rotation exercise, undoubtedly, Right? So it's not a silly exercise. It's just often ill-prescribed.

In the same way, if I was to look for Adam in the phone book. So for those of you listening phone books for these things, that like you could find everyone's number. So I'll rip some in half. Right. So S is the 19th letter of a 26th letter alphabet. That means it's 73% of the way through the alphabet. But yet when most people prescribe exercise,

they go, hmm, shaffer, A, no, no shaffer, B, no, no shaffer, C, no, no shaffer, they go, all right, LeBron, we're gonna go bird dog and side planking curbs. I was like, what? Are you joking? This guy's fucking 6, 8, 285. How is that, this nervous system's not gonna be on board, right? So finding the right index, like,

I will look at a phone book, go shave for 73%. Okay, I know I'm gonna miss, right? Because maybe some last names are disproportionately represented. But if I go phone books this big, there's half, there's half of half, that's 75%. I'm gonna be in the ballpark. I'm gonna be an exercise progression, regression, adaptation, or optimization away from the perfect

Anti-rotation drill for Adam. Yeah, so here's what it sounds like because this is the issue I've had with other certifications other certifications Tell you this is what you do. It sounds like prescript is teaching you how to think So you can you can visualize it. Yeah, so you can understand the process so that because, and here's the challenge, when you work with people, they're so different, there's so many variances, there's so many things to consider that I can't just have an answer, I have to know how to get the answer so that I can give them the right, at least close to the right answer, and then within a couple sessions, now I've got the right right, right, the opening blurb of the first course of every semester is, look, if you're here for all the answers,

this is the wrong place, we're just gonna help you ask better questions. That's all it is. It's 16 weeks of just like, this will help you ask better questions, and that's it. If you get us some answers along the way, great, but that's not what I thought. And this goes back to what I said about you earlier,

is that you're this really rare combination of person who's got the experience, works with people, trains himself, and lots and lots of academic, formal, academic education. And I can tell just the way you explain it, but also in your certification, that it melds it to,

and I can't think of too many certifications that do that really well. You know? It's good. Yeah, I don't know, thanks man. It's fun. It's what I don't know. Thanks, man. It's it's fun. It's it's what I What I wish I knew you know what's the most telling is

And this is for any business is percentage of people that do one part of your or buy one product How many even come back? What do they call that retention or yeah? Yeah, yeah, so when we have and I think that in From a business sense is also the most valuable part of the experience of our certifications is like the community aspect that comes with everyone going through our barbell course or our weightlifting course or our skill acquisition course or our level two course or our programming course or breathing course. That you just start to see so many familiar faces between the lectures and the labs and then when. They keep coming back. Yeah, we've been lucky enough to just, I think just attract a really high level. Like, you know, we've had a lot of like minds and not like minds if I'm being honest, come in

and find a common ground and just like a wantingness to learn the truth or their truth. One of the challenges with certifications is just because of the big box gym industry, although now it's changed a lot since when I was managing gyms, still, big box gym industry is where a lot of people start and there's like certain certifications that they accept and not others. And you got to be able to get work in and get accepted with, you know, as like continue

education courses or get accepted as a nationally recognized order, what's that process like? Because I imagine it's a ridiculous bureaucracy and it's crazy, but that's just my own opinion of all the stuff. That kind of stuff. And you're not wrong. And I think to a certain degree,

with for good reason, right? Like there has to be hoops to jump through. Because it, it, it's part of a sort of a communication. It's a tough, yeah. Like I think right now with COVID and a lot of trainers, I've seen that emergence of like mentorships come up. And it's like, yeah, that's fine, man,

like undoubtedly people with experience have. So long as the mentor's good. Right, and like I'm neither judge nor jury, but it's like, I think for me, it's I wanna reinvest back into the people that have invested into the company, right? Like I don't want someone, because I've taken certifications for companies

that don't exist anymore. It's like well that was a complete waste of time. Right, I know people who have gone to like osteopathic schools that their osteoschools have folded. And you're like well, wow. I will have fries with that. Like that's what your career is gonna now be. So for us, it's like, well, wow, I will have fries with that. Like, that's what your career is going to now be. So for us, it's like, you know, it's not cheap and it's, it's a growing operation.

And you guys are recognized, right? So you get CUs for, yeah. So NASM and NSEA, we are approved for 16 hours for both, which is essentially, you know, the bulk of most researchifications coming next year will actually be alongside NASM and NSEA with our PSCPT course that we're getting and CCA accredited. What does that look like? How does that process work? Do you have to send them the information, talk to the right person?

What's that all do? Yeah, so it's a non-government organization. It's a lot of red tape, it's a lot of review, it's a lot of money, but it's just whoops, you have to jump through. So, there are certain requirements that need to be met from a content standpoint, and we're working back and forth in order to make a change in the industry. There are some things that need to be maybe phased out or updated, so it'll expand outside of our current course offering as far as topics that we cover. We're very heavily into the applied biomechanics

and functional anatomy. We're touching more on exercise programming with some upcoming courses that we have. But yeah, it's just long. And it's really, I think the more I do it, the more, I don't know if you're grateful, is the right word, but it definitely proved to me that this is an outcome that I want, like I want that differentiation,

that someone can come through who's not a personal trainer and maybe get set on the right path. I think a lot of people, and you guys, so probably you're living embodiments of this, is like a lot of people want to make a change in the industry, but when the rubber hits the road, maybe they wanna just make a buck, which is fine. Like, yo, make your money. Like I friends out there who are not in the industry, but when the rubber hits the road, maybe they wanna just make a buck, which is fine, like, yo, make your money.

Like, I friends out there who are not changing the industry, but they're in PJs, private jets, they got the G6s and it's like, private jets look really cool. I don't know, but for me, it's like, all right, I got, I think I got an accelerated start to my inception into training, because my training partner was just very well educated.

I'm like, oh, this is how everyone starts out. And I'm in this, I've been training for 16 years and I realized that, oh, stuff I learned on my second workout with my buddy Luke Bradaches, who's actually in like the, he's in the forward of the book, is still stuff that the people don't know, right? And it's like, well, how can I have that? How can that be the impact that he had on me?

So how can I have that impact? So if it means like, hey, NCCA accreditation is gonna cost you an arm and a leg every year. It's like, can I, I just go to my accountant, do we have an arm and a leg to spare? It's like, yes, okay, great. But we will give arm and leg for to do that. So it's just my way of like Charles Pollackman

was an example for me. Yeah. As you know, RIP, but like, you know, he had at least the courage to say anything, right? In a time where so many people, especially now, like the, and this is something that I am so staunchly against that if I see one of our coaches, trash and peat you out. If I see someone on Instagram

who's taking one of our certifications, and they're getting a knife fight in the comments section, and they're like, messaging me, what do you think about this? I'm like, I think just take your prescript level one out of your thousand-year money back, like, wow, I don't want that. It's just like that's the, I mean, it's an unnecessary,

but it's not something I wanna be associated with. Yeah, no, I think that idea and that integrity is good for the space, because that's one of the most common things that drives me crazy about our spaces. You get a couple of these trainers that get a handful of certifications, and also they think they're fucking,

the next best thing's like it's the sliced bread, they start arguing with everybody in the comments section and putting down other coaches because of some recent article study or certification that they just recently read. You know what's really cool? Because you've been doing this almost, I mean, you've been doing this a long time too, Jordan.

I've been doing this for a long time. And what's awesome is the fitness industries relatively young when you compare it to other industries, but it's old enough now to where you're starting to see value proven in studies research and even with evidence from all these different tribes, right? All these different areas. Like bodybuilders always said this and power lifters

always did this and your Olympic lifters always did this and everybody's arguing about who's better or what a, well now we're starting to see like oh, you know They might have explained it in a way that really that's not how it's working But it does work and here's the value and you're starting to see Things being put together so to me. It's annoying when I see the kettlebell guy arguing with the power lifter about whose method is More valuable or what's better or whatever? I'm like man. You guys are not learning from each other There's so much wisdom. I remember when you first started training with Pekolsky,

it was a bodybuilder, and it was a pro bodybuilder, very different from your personal training, which was powerlifting. And I remember talking to both of you guys, and both of you guys learning from each other with your training. It was beautiful. I love seeing that. And I think a lot of it abends like a very cerebral thinker. Yeah, definitely your people, for sure. And I think a lot of it abends a very cerebral thinker.

Yeah, definitely your people for sure. But I think both of us are just digging down to the root of principles, right? Like what is the mechanism? And that's one, because once you know that, that's the source code, right? Like I'll make the comparison often. And again, this is like your early question.

So you're parallel though to software. And even when you're mentioning all that, I can't help but think of a lot of the wearables like text trying to come up with heat sensor, with skin galvanizing, all this kind of stuff, which is already in our blueprint, we're just sort of highlighting it. Well, that's the biggest thing, right?

Is understanding your ones and zeros. Like one of the things that we'll reference in time of year point earlier, but how do we make these very like seemingly ethereal, distant theoretical concepts applicable. It's like this is a comparison we'll make all the time is like what was your first computer? My very first computer. It was the year was 19. You know, I you know, I was late to get Commodore. It wasn't until I was 19 or 20 and it was the Apple one with the back the colored back.

Oh, you got the candy one. What a California kid. Or in trail. No, we had like a Windows 95. I remember being the first operating system. Like before I even knew what an operating system was. So it's like that ran like an Intel whatever process or something like that.

And you know, you look at my laptop now, I probably have no joke, 10,000 open taps. Like that's how my bread works. And Zoom and Google and FaceTime and Skype and my cell phone links to it and I get weird text notifications. But me and the same, it has a lot of computing power. I can execute very complex programs on my computer now

And I remember when my grandma used to call my internet used to drop out So it's like well, I can't play kitty can in anymore because grandma called so it's like it didn't have a lot of ones and zeros It didn't have a lot of computing power. So I couldn't execute complex programs Right, so in order to And the parallel being like these, as we dive down into the source code of movement, we start to understand it from a mechanistic change. You're hard wearing your software, man. But then it allows you to execute more complex programs. Totally. Right? And I think that's where another, I don't want to say value proposition, but

creating indexes and exercise based off of complexity, instability, necessary co-contraction, necessary rhythm, breathing, timing, off of just all different reference points. So you can just accurately take someone and be like, I want to try this extra, oh, they can't perform it. The constraint of exercise selection is probably the most underutilized component of exercise. Like, I'm going to take a client and they're going to squat light and then they're going to squat heavy. Yeah, brilliant. I love that. I love a little thought you put into that entire thing.

It's like, well, why don't you start them off with a front foot elevated split squat? Right. What does that do? It's like, well, it disproportionately loads that lead leg and actually starts off setting into more hip extension than hip flexion, probably driving more internal rotation.

Oh, you want more internal rotation? Maybe contralaterally loaded and that'll actually pull the torso into more relative. So just things like that, what's like, well, you could squat, or you could, I don't know. It's wrong for me to think,

but like, way I frame into my mind and what I was about to say was, or you could care about more about what you did for a living as a career. Because that's what I think. It's like, you know, if you care about what you do, or like the outcomes of your clients, like this to me is the requisite level, and that's what I think. It's like, you know, if you care about what you do or like the outcomes of your clients, like this to me is the requisite level,

and that's why the course is right there. Well, you know, it's, it's an early year trainer is like, oh, in order to be good, I need to just get people to lose weight and look better. And then later experience trainer. Yeah, later experience trainer is like, yeah, I gotta do that that because that's their goal. But if I can get them to move and be pain free, that's it.

You're successful, 100%. And if I can get them to move right, I'm going to crush. And that took me a little while to figure out. But now I'm being should hear what your framework or your projected mindset of a new trainer in the digital spaces. Because that's coming from a fitness manager sitting down with the new trainer, it's like, oh, this guy's got a pocket protector

and he brought his diploma as part of his hiring package. This is gonna be fucking annoying. They're like, this guy's got 23 inch arms, I'm pretty sure I just saw him injecting steroids in the locker room. This is also gonna be a problem. But it's like, now it's what is the motivating criteria for people at least who are finding us and going through prescapt

is like, there is a digital etiquette that is, I've, it's so different and it's very challenging. I, you know, we've said this before and, and maybe we're a little biased, but I think in order to, I think it's harder to be a good coach digitally than it is in person because you're not there, you're not seeing them, you're not able to watch other body moves in real time

and walk around them and move with them and get the feel and the energy, which is really understated. I mean, it's so important. So I mean, I've done a little bit of online coaching when we first started Mind Pump. And I remember thinking how hard or almost impossible it would have been had I'd not have the experience

of training people in person. Yeah, and that's where the skin in the game definitely helps, but also understanding the difference between coaching and programming is something that we really, because we're a coaching course. We offer a programming course, but it's still a coaching company offering a programming course, because you program a computer, you coach a person, which is the underlying difference. I know great exercise programmers that if performance existed in a vacuum, this guy's gonna write today,

he's gonna un-delay and wave every sort of stimulus if you're in a hypertrophy or strength, or in season or off season, but it's like the second someone stubs their toe. That was our challenge when we wrote our maps programs was we were creating programs for the masses and it was programming We all understood coaching. So I remember we would get when we wrote even recently we wrote a new program That's you know we won't talk about yet, so we're not releasing it but not yet

But we still get into these debates because what about the person who's like this and what about the person that's like that and it's like okay This is programming not coaching. That's what my favorite part, so that's also why the podcast was so important. Yes. So we could have, and we make that point when we talk about the program. He said, listen, we're not saying that this is the perfect program for everybody. It's a great place to start. Now, hear us out. Like, when you, if you come across this, then we might want to do this.

You come across that. But I think that's so important when you're working in the digital space is, okay, do you have the X's and O's down really well? And then also do you know how to call onables? And so I think like where you do the labs and you have the in-person type of seminars and courses, I think we've tried to use the podcast

and now you're also podcasting like that. I think that is, you have to, it's paramount to build a successful coach. Otherwise, it's generic crap. A lot of teaching mechanics and biomechanics is understanding how it's going to be applied. Knowing that majority of people with social media being such a driver are looking to either branch into a hybrid business online or they are currently fully digital coaches. That's one of, I think, the most expedient tools for online coaching is actually understanding biomechanics, because if I'm watching a movement, depending on the movement, my attention's gonna be focused

on maybe one or two places total, right? So it's like, you know, this idea that, you know, compensation is a very popular smoke bomb, right? I was like, well, you know, this idea that, you know, compensation is a very popular smoke bomb. I was like, well, you know, there's a lot of compensation going on. You even just connects your uppertorsments, it's all very complicated. It's like, yeah, but it's not if you know where to look. Right. So like, when we address this exercise, and we'll even make reference to framing in a video, like, if your clients are checking in, assuming that last year and a half, especially when we've been teaching this,

it's like they're gonna send check-in videos, have them filmin' from this way, because we wanna see breakdown of the transverse line. Oh, that's great, so you teach them, you know, if you're doing this digitally, these are the angles you wanna look at for these particular movements, because this is what you're looking for.

Yeah, exactly. And that's where it's just understanding, that's why biomechanics and functional anatomy become so handy, it's like, I could try and just look at someone's hip during a squat, like what is going on? Maybe they have antroversion, or maybe they have retroversion, or maybe they haven't encapsulated femur head,

and they're maybe their femur neck as this. Or we can just look at their foot, and be like, oh, okay, all right. So it's little things like that. It's, you know, our coaches are the marksmen, we just got to tell them we're to shoot, right? So that's a big part of understanding that source code is like, I know where things are gonna break down.

So I know where to look to see these, if it breaks down here, look here, if it breaks down here, that means it's breaking down here. So that's where it's become super helpful, as I agree, I'm such a, I love just the smell of a gym in the morning, which is so weird. I'll come home every single day and Tess is just like, you smell like you work at a tire factory.

It's like, that's not the only thing. Yeah, and it's just a bunch of rubber plates and all that, but I still like going into the gym and training athletes or clients or whatever. And that perspective shift is like, oh, okay, like when this exercise breaks down, it breaks down instability for lateral hip, that manifested overpronation of the foot.

Word to an early stance to be overpronating, let's make sure that if we're viewing the exercise, we're looking at it from the front, not the side. Okay, that's great. Is there a portion of the curriculum that you personally are most proud of? That's tough. I was gonna say it's like asking a parent

their favorite kid except my parents because I know it's my sister. I think I really like the level two course of which is that odd things we're talking about, the level one, just because I think it makes, it takes very almost like what's thought to be untouchable concepts, two theoretical and makes them very applied.

So we go into like rib cage and pelvic mechanics and go through like single leg continuum of how we appropriately load unilateral movements versus how we load based off of potential rib cage structure then obviously like the nervous system mechanical receptor stuff. I like that because I often get, and level two's, you know,

our advanced level one students that are often of like a higher, I don't say higher caliber, but there's a higher curiosity for learning. So it's scary. Like, you know, we have a handful of major league, major league baseball, strength coaches, some orthopedic surgeons, so like I'm like shit, like I'm a little bit scared.

I imagine you would, you would attract the person that is wanting that next level. So you're probably getting coaches, which this actually is perfect, say what is the next question I wanted to ask you because you attract that type of person. Is there a common thing that you are challenged in with these, I'm sure you get a lot of coaches high level intellects and or probably also diverse

in their education and experience. Do you see common things, I always get this. People always wanna challenge this theory or this portion of curriculum. Do you see common things like that? Not so much anymore because those common things have been fleshed out, because it's almost like, not like a stand-up comedian knows

when he's going to upset someone. Yeah, right? Like I know the things that are inflammatory, I know the things that are contentious. And I'll just, I'll walk them through it, kind of hold their hand through it. So it can be a little bit uncomfortable. When we get into gate cycle mechanics

and understanding like early mid and late stance mechanics and gates cycle and how that pertains to resistance training, that's a very dogmatic part, a subset of applied by mechanics that comes born of like a very theoretical faction. So making that applied is met with a bit of resistance. Explain what you mean by that. Right. Because we're arguing over how we all theoretically believe we evolved over time

and that's why or what makes it so contentious? How did properly dose some of these exercises and understanding how to, here's a better way to work, how to put that principle in perspective of your overall programming, right? Like making considerations and exercise selection for every single exercise you do based off of the fact that you lack hip internal rotation is probably a really silly idea for someone that wants to, it like you just get in better shape and lose weight.

Like the fact that someone's rib cage presents with, to use some of the jargon of that field or subfield, someone presents with a wide, infertional angle and they're posteriorly compressed that everything you're going to do is anteriorly loaded zircher squats in front foot elevated bulk areas and trying to create this posterior expansion. It's like taking this and just putting it in its place in the continuum of exercise and understanding like, hey, our goal is to not confuse our clients. Like, I have clients very type A.

I'm sure you were the same. I'm sure you had like executive CEO types that were like, they want to know that if they're spending money that they, that you know your field as well as they're expected to know there. Of course, right? So like, this started for me when I was working at Apple because I was just slim like like, chiropractic,

fresh out of school. I still had spots and I had, like, just some, like, double PhD, MIT, software engineer going, yeah, but why? And not malicious, not insidious, just genuinely curious. And that's how someone gets that smart. And that would just be like, uh, cuz my professor said so, like, I can't play those games, right? So when you get to that point, it's like, you always need to be able to bring it back into real life, where those subsets of applied biomechanics, what we're talking

about, you know, the considerations that have to be made around structural contribution, again, like, where structure might indicate function a little bit more at the rib cage in pelvis. This is a tie break of one exercise and maybe that you see once or twice a week. Like, hey, rather than doing a barbell Bulgarian split squat, maybe you load them either consciously or load them in a funerary position or something like that or a zircher, or a zircher,

so that's it. Then you're simply basically, there's putting too much weight on one particular aspect. Well, yeah, because it is a fairly complicated thing to wrap your head around because it's a different framework. So you have to invest a lot of time into really being able to understand that particular model in a workable fashion. So you feel indebted to this model to allow it to decide all or make all your decisions

for you because you've invested so much time into it. And then anything else that's not that is not something that you've been focusing on. So it's really like, it's the only thing your light touches. So the idea of a leg press is like, well, no, that creates too much this or that. And this is one of the hard parts to balance. And maybe to your original question a few minutes ago, um, is just understanding that humans aren't fragile, right?

Like I've hurt myself lifting weights, but like it was a lot of them. Like it was a lot of weights very stupidly in a short period of time. Like, lifting is inherently safe. Humans are inherently robust. So I think reiterating that is probably because we do attract a certain type, that are conscientious. And by nature, they do want to help. They want to first do no harm.

But it's like, a lot of times, first doing no harm often ends up as doing no good. So being able to confidently toe that line of practicing skill and training output, and do so in a way that actually helps your client, rather than just helps your fear of understanding like the outer limits of a human capacity. Well let's talk about fear for a second. How long

has this certification been around? How many people have you certified? And then when you launched it, do you shitting your pants? We're like, all right, here's my baby to the world. Um, good question. This has been around for four years Wow three and a half four years. Yeah, just great. I remember when you first came out with it Well, yeah, yeah, it's been a while. We ran between in person So we've done this exclusively for a handful of Jim franchises A couple thousand around the world. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun and with a digital product has been around Yeah, for a little over three years.

I don't know, I don't know if it was a fuck it. Like, I've done a lot, not to get too deep in my personal life, but a lot of what I do is you the fuck yes or no. So it's like, I don't, if I've been a point in this, probably why I travel so much, where if I feel like I'm not doing something that's a little bit nerve

rocking, I'm like bored. I went on even bored. I think that's where the fear sets in. Like the fear of being static, like that scares the shit out of me. Like I'll just, if I know how to get to a place without a GPS, I'm like, ah, I got to go somewhere where like I don't know the language or something. So I was scared. Yeah, it was causing me anxiety. If anxiety by definition is the dizziness of freedom, it was the most free thing that I had. Imagine falling into a pit and not knowing the bottom.

Right? So you could just like, that was kind of it. I started writing the course and I had a half of it done. But I was traveling throughout this and I was teaching on weekends. I was traveling on Mondays. I was usually getting settled in an Airbnb in a different city. I would teach online Tuesday, Wednesday, which is still the schedule. And then I would teach from Thursday to Sunday and Monday I would travel again and I would

do that. But there were times where I was, I would have had it all in my head. But it's like, oh shit, I need to do like make create a slideshow and all that and also still write the manual where I remember being, I was at a Starbucks in, I was at Boston. No, it was Hoboken, New Jersey. And for whatever reason, my laptop had died, my iPad had died. And I was, I had to finish the slides while I was teaching. So I would create a slide while talking about something on a previous slide, and I had like,

it's just like, my dad's one of these people who can listen to one song, but remember the lyrics of another one. Yeah. Like, and I'm so glad that he's my father, because I have a bit of that ability to just completely dissociate. So my hands writing the next slide while I stopped the screen share and was expounding on the points of the previous slide. And then I would go to share the screen again and then the new slide that I just created was up. And then I would put it up there, let them kind of like gather some of the bullet points to look at the funny picture that I just like screenshot and dragged into the slide on Google slides. And then I was like, okay, dragged into the slide on Google slides. And then I was like, okay,

and then I would stop Sheen's Green Share, add new slide. And yeah, so when we talk about rotator cough, there's four of them, and I'm talking about the serrated satirio while I'm typing, but I'm actually like, it's a great experience. Yeah, it always a blast. Like, and there's been some of our courses

where that's been the case, because like writing the manual, teaching live in person. A lot, dude. It's, yeah, it's fun. I remember making the transition from training clients to training trainers and managing gyms, and I loved it, but a lot of, I knew a lot of people

that did that, that found it not to be as fulfilling, and then of course I found it to be more fulfilling. Are you, is this, are you more fulfilled training coaches and trains? Is this something that you just, is this your passion now? Yeah, because I think there's a meta impact that you can create if you get it right. Yeah, I agree.

And it's hard because it is a bit of a telephone game. So you want to make sure that, and I tell my class, it's not about like the students per se. It's about their clients, right? Like get it right. So I can be, you know, when someone fails an exam, I don't just like, all right, the retake fee is whatever. It's like, we get on a Zoom call and we sit down and be like,

what didn't you get about this? Because like, what do I, and like, I've had teachers explain this to me and like, yeah, whatever, like, you don't give a shit. But then like, when I'm in that position, it's like, no, no, no, like, I wanna make sure, because if there's someone out there who just squeaked by, and they think that this is how this, that

this answer is correct, I need to do a better job at teaching this because like, to me, especially it started to resonate when I worked in a clinical setting, just like getting it, getting it wrong and doing no harm doesn't really matter. I don't say it doesn't matter, but like the consequences of like, I don't know, I've worked with this trainer and I've only lost like a few pounds, but I like them and it's cool and whatever, and we get along, but I don't really know. That's one thing.

But with a lot of the concepts we cover, like the, it really, I think broadens the, I don't want to say scope of practice, but it broadens the impact that the trainer could have. Because then working in a clinical setting and you deal with people who have been on disability for three, four years have had four failed spines, fusions, and have to take like, you know, a handful of Norco and Gabapet and just to get out of bed. And this all started because of a trainer not being diligent. And like, you know, there's a lot of factors

that go into an injury, and we talk about that at detail. And we're not trying to make anyone a therapist, but it's like if you're a good coach, if you're a good trainer, you can well within the confines of your scope of practice, be able to elicit changes that get people out of pain by just setting your sights on improving function. And this is where the functioning bad structure really came to play for me. There's one patient I had for a time I was in California that's always someone that I think about.

There's a ramification to getting this wrong. There's a way that you can actually help people. And if you're not a diligent trainer, that's a missed opportunity for someone to get better. And it's more than just like, well, getting married in 16 weeks, I want to fit into this, it's other things. So I saw it from a very like, you know, this one guy in particular,

actually just messaged him the other day before I came back, like his kids get paid. And he was like, very well off CEO, Silicon Valley, type a former military West Point grad, like, he was a badass, like he's, you know, not that this is a marker of anything, but this guy's killed people in active duty and now is like, you know,

he has a hard time getting up the stairs some mornings. And it's like, if you can be, like, if you can give that back to him by understanding, like, because you know, understand a West Point grad, you go to that bird dog side plank curl up, it's like, yeah, he's done these. He's in 1500 of these a day, right?

We need to start flipping through the pages faster, right? So if you can understand these models, and you can impart these models, and you can start to like actually be able to reach people where they're at, rather than just running this system, rather than a system's way of thinking, like that's what always did it for me was like,

I want this to just reach more people. This is like I got into the digital space confined by a geographical space in my practice, then getting into the meta-impact of coaching coaches and educating coaches, it was like now. Well, this is why we appreciate you and your certification because, at the very least, if you're the one introducing fitness to this person,

you have the opportunity to create a good experience for someone in a lifelong good relationship with fitness and health, or you could do what happens a lot, which is the person does it and tries it and falls off, and then we have this obesity epidemic. And most people have lost weight, most people have worked out, but most people don't continue.

And I feel like if coaches and trainers do a good job, at the very least, you give this incredible experience to the person where they develop this good relationship. We're now they have this lifelong pursuit, where it's a part of their life. And I'm preaching to the choir now, but we know the impact that it can have on someone's quality of life,

not to mention what you're talking about, which is solving someone's movement issues and pain and not hurting them. So that's what we appreciate what you do, and that why this certification is something we wanted to talk to you about. Thanks, man. Yeah, that's fun.

That's always fun having you on, man. I'm glad you're doing what you're doing, brother. I'm glad it was much more topical this time. I thought it was like going off the reins. This was good. Well, last time we needed to catch up, right? Last time we needed to catch up. It's been a while, so fast.

You are interesting. I mean, I could definitely do it every time you're in here. I could definitely do another podcast talking to you about your adventures around the world, talking about fitness. So we might have to do that another time. Down. Very, very, very good stuff. But yeah, thanks for coming on, man. Appreciate it. I appreciate it. I always, guys. Thank you.

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