Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1765: Bodybuilding Vs. Powerlifting With Ben Pollack

Episode Date: March 7, 2022

In this episode Sal, Adam & Justin speak with powerlifter turned bodybuilder, Ben Pollack about the differences between the two sports. Why did he switch from powerlifting to the sport of bodybuilding? (2:47) What was the attraction to bodybuilding? (5:37) Bodybuilding is objective, right? (6:24) The mental challenge of switching focus in training. (8:42) The differences in the physique between the two lifters. (16:36) Did he feel he had a head start switching sports? (22:32) Do the stereotypes hold for bodybuilders? (24:32) Why MOST bodybuilders should be deadlifting. (27:06) What exercises, from bodybuilding, will he continue to incorporate into his training? (29:46) The contrast in nutrition transitioning from powerlifting to bodybuilding. (33:27) What did his PRs look like at his lowest and highest weight? (40:44) Why he loves the Smith Machine for chest work. (42:00) What can powerlifters learn from bodybuilders and vice versa? (44:21) The differences in drug use between the two sports. (46:20) Does he have any favorite anabolics? Least favorites? (51:14) The importance of monitoring your health. (54:35) Has the weight gain affected his sleep? (56:31) Has this change made an impact on his business? Any hate? (59:49) Which training style would be more conducive for longevity? (1:01:13) What does the future look like for Ben? (1:06:19) Becoming more open-minded, the benefits of sled training, and isometrics. (1:08:04) Related Links/Products Mentioned March Promotion: Limited Time Power Bundle! MAPS Strong and MAPS Powerlift for the low price of $79.99 Visit Paleo Valley for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Promo code “Mindpump15” at checkout for 15% discount** Mind Pump #865: Stan Efferding- The World’s Strongest Bodybuilder Mi40 Nation Primobolan - Steroid .com Excess Tongue Fat Could Be Leading to Sleep Apnea, Scientists Find Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Ben Pollack, Ph.D. (@phdeadlift)  Instagram Stan “Rhino” Efferding (@stanefferding)  Instagram Ronnie Coleman (@ronniecoleman8)  Instagram Derek Lunsford (@dereklunsford_)  Instagram Andrew Herbert (@herbietheluvbug)  Instagram John Haack (@bilbo_swaggins181)  Instagram Dave Tate (@underthebar)  Instagram

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the world's number one fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is MindPump, right? Today's episode we have a special guest, Ben Pollock, one of our favorite people, he's a power lifter, turned bodybuilder. So today's episode is about bodybuilding

versus powerlifting, like all the differences, the pros, the cons, the carryovers. What did he learn from bodybuilding? What could bodybuilders learn from power lifters? How they're complimentary, how oftentimes or sometimes, they end up opposing each other. Really, really good episode, a lot of fun. Now, this episode is brought to you by our sponsor,

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This is a strong man inspired workout program, and Maps Power Lift, this is literally a powerlifting style workout program. Both of them combine normally would cost you 300 bucks, okay? Here's the promotion. Get them both for $79.99. That's it, literally $79.99. By the way, Maps Power Lift was created with Ben Pollock back in the day, so the programming in there, and there's some videos in there of Ben coaching you through powerlifting. But again, maps wrong, that's power lift, 79, 99, that's it. Lifetime access, huge, huge discount. If you're interested, head over to maps March.com. Once again, M-A-P-S-M-R-T-C-D-C-M March.com. I'm actually really excited to have you back in the studio. I didn't realize that it has been over three years

because that was the Austin trip. I know we did the program with you, but we didn't do a podcast. So it's been since Austin, and I know that's at least three or four years and so a lot has happened since then, and I'm really excited to hang out. It was good to see you.

I mean, dude. Yeah, you know, you're in a unique position. I've always liked finding people like you because I have a lot of questions around kind of similarities and differences between different training methodologies. And you were a highly competitive powerlifter who then went into bodybuilding.

And a lot of similarities, obviously both lift weights, getting stronger building muscle, a highly competitive powerlifter who then went into bodybuilding. And a lot of similarities, obviously both lift weights, getting stronger building muscle, but very different competition-wise, there's differences in how you train and diet and all that stuff. And I'd love to kind of dive in a little into that, what you saw, the differences were, and how it felt.

And maybe start with why? Why did you switch from a powerlifting where you did have a great career into the sport of bodybuilding, which is a lot different in terms of the judging and competition? Yeah, so that's actually an easy question for me because it was a very,

it was a decision I struggled over for a long time. So when I finally made the switch, I was very clear that this is what I was gonna do. So it was about, about a full year that I was trying to stay 181 for powerlifting because I wanted to total 2000 at that weight class. And I was, before that I was walking around around 215, right? So that's more of a cut than I was capable of doing.

The biggest cut I ever did, my walk around weight was like 205 to 181. Now I would blow it up higher than that in all seasons, stuff like that, but then, you know, kind of die down close to the show. And I guess I did one cut that was bigger than that, but that was a bad experience. So trying to stay that light, I was eating almost nothing,

which I could deal with that, right? Like that's just this point. But because I was trying to stay that light, I ended up getting hurt over and over and over again. It was bad to the point where I'd be walking into the gym cramping up before I even started lifting. And after I actually have to warm up for half an hour so the cramps would go away. Oh, interesting. And so whether it was like a little minor a campaign or some like more

major that was holding me back, it just kept happening over and over and over again. So I was training for the US Open in, I believe it was 2019 and training was actually going really well. I was walking around, it was about 200, 201, something like that. So actually relatively easy cut to 21. And I had hit a 760 squat and training, I had hit a 760 squat and training, pulling about the same. All my lifts were going really well. And I ended up developing 10 and 9 is in my knees. That was both knees so bad. I couldn't even walk upstairs or anything.

I had to drop the meat for that. And I'm getting corded zone injection one. It went away, but it was just, I had really pushed hard for that prep mentally. And after that, I was like like I just can't keep this up I gotta get my body break so that's that was the point when I started Training training. I was still doing powerlifting training, but my goal shifted towards bodybuilding now What was it about bodybuilding that attracted you in terms of because you're injured and what was it just that?

Okay, now I can allow my body to grow, or that I don't have to train as heavy. Like, what was it that attracted to you? It was, I'm somebody who has to have a goal. Like, I don't have a goal. It's not that I'm not gonna train hard, it's not that I'm not gonna follow my diet. I'll just kinda go nuts.

Like, I need something to push for. So, I had a goal that would still allow me to train in a way that was intense and a way that was, you know, kind of directed at something, not just training for the enjoyment of it. And I could train a little bit lighter, so I wasn't going to beat myself up as much. But I really, at first, I was not invested in the bodybuilding world at all. I really just wanted to have that goal that would be something external that I could work

towards that wouldn't be me up as much. Did you have any concerns with, because one of the biggest differences that I see in powerlifting and in bodybuilding is in powerlifting, you either lift the weight you don't. So you win or you lose, it's objective, there's no arguments. I mean, there could be arguments on, I guess, the way that they judge a lift, but it's not a subjective sport like bodybuilding where you're on stage and then someone says you look better than the other guy. So was there any concerns with that at all? Well, no, because when I was

starting out, I didn't realize that, right? And so I thought, well, this is essentially the same as a weight class competition. All I have to do is be the biggest kind of stage. So I'll do another crazy water. Wait a minute, you really thought that. I remember that super objective. I remember that I really thought that. And I remember that I remember the phone call and he called me after that show. And I remember like having to talk them off and he's ready to rip her face. So I'm like, Ro Calm down, relax. This is part of it.

I'm about your face. Yeah. So that's what you experienced. So you went in there thinking, oh, it's just objective. I'm gonna be bigger, more ripped, and I'll win. And then you like, how did you feel when you figured out that's not quite how it is?

Well, I was so hungry at that point that I didn't feel anything supposed. It was terrible. I think after that show, I ate for like eight hours, not eight hours, it was like three or four hours, just straight shoving my face, just hunger would not go away. Oh man, that's terrible.

What was the prep like? Because okay, so here's another big difference. And these are all coming to me now as I think about it. As you're leading up to a powerlifting competition, your goal is to be as strong and aggressive and energetic as possible. Yep. Bodybuilding. It's like how close to death can I get with that actually? They call walking dead men is what they call that must have been weird for you. Like what was how's the prep for bodybuilding versus powerlifting so I didn't mind like I kind of like I like pushing myself right so the fact that I was feeling like shit that I could kind of at least embrace like this is a challenge like I can wrap my head around

that what I couldn't wrap my head around was the fact that you're supposed to get on stage and just be calm and enjoying yourself and I I'm like, I'm supposed to be fired up. Like I'm supposed to be starting to moneo, I'm supposed to be like screaming. So that, I got off stage and I was like, I didn't even do anything. Like what was the last 12 weeks for? Like to just walk across the stage,

I could have done that at the start of prep. That was really weird for me. That took me a long time to circling back to the training. I know that this part could get very nuanced and we don't have to get in crazy detail, but I am a little curious like, what were some of the major shifts as far as the training from shift lifting wise?

Like, did you dramatically change the programming completely? I mean, what was the focus like and what did you kind of get rid of that you were doing before? Well, so at first, I was pretty misguided because, so again, I wasn't super invested in bodybuilding itself, right? And so I saw it as an excuse

to let myself train more often, right? Because now I can do a body parts split so I can do push-pull legs, instead of now I'm doing squat and deadlift on the same day so I can put in five or six training days. And that's, it's not like your recovery is any better because you're training for something different, right? So that didn't go that well. Once I tried, once I started to get a little bit more familiar with what the training was supposed to be like,

then it got, it was really pretty simple, right? It was including more isolation work, it was including more direct arm training, more direct shoulder training, but it was still primarily a powerlifting program. Like, I just enjoyed the heavy lifting too much to kind of cut that out completely, even though I don't think it was super beneficial for me. Yeah, I remember we interviewed Stan Effarding, and he was somebody that kind of did that as well, right? And he said one of the biggest challenges for him was changing from like, maximizing biomechanics leverage in technique for a lift versus making it feel harder

and feeling it in the muscles more and doing maybe more reps or whatever. Did you have a tough time transitioning from, I'm squatting 600 pounds to, I need to squat 315 and just really feel it in my quads type of deal. Yes, it was definitely very mentally challenging. Physically, I don't think it was that challenging for most of my body parts because for especially

for my back and legs, I already had a pretty strong mind muscle connection, right? So from a physical standpoint, that was pretty easy. It was definitely hard to get over the ego aspect of, okay, we're going to knock the weights down and this is still supposed to be productive training. For the pressing muscles in particular, right? So my chest, my shoulders, my triceps. Ben should always help me back in paralleling. Those muscles help me back in bodybuilding. It was still kind of a thing where I had to put in a lot of time

and a lot of patience and really almost start from square one trying to figure out exactly what you're saying. Okay, we're going to try and feel the muscle actually working. We're not just trying to move the weight. And then trying to isolate those individual muscle groups too, pretty difficult for me because my shoulders have been beat up my entire powerlifting career. And if you don't have good mobility, it's very, very difficult to put yourself in positions where you can really

get that muscle going. Where did you notice the lack of mobility? Was it just a full extension overhead? And anything overhead, man, not just full extension, but yeah, any type of vertical pressing was really, really difficult for me. Even incline pressing was really, really difficult. Wow. And I had to do a lot of mobility work

to kind of get over that. And it would kind of manifest itself outside of just pressing work, right? Like, when I was gaining all that weight, I couldn't even get in a squat bar. My mobility got so bad because I had to add all that muscle, but I hadn't added, I hadn't built the flexibility to go with it. So that was actually really, really difficult. Were there any like specific exercises that you added into your routine that you saw like massive benefit from like that you weren't really doing before. Um, definitely isolation work from, not isolation work, but direct back training, upper

back training because I was only doing deadlifts and I don't know. Wait a minute. Hold on. So go, when you were a power lifter, you didn't do a lot of pull ups, pull downs, row. I love that because you're, you're an example I use all time when I get in this argument. There's, this, and I'm sure you've seen this. There's some trainers. Uh, the deadlift is not a back. Yeah'm sure you've seen this. There's some trainers.

The deadlift is not a backer. Yeah, they try and say deadlift needs not a backer. And I always point to your Instagram as an example. And I actually didn't know you weren't doing any. I was just like, here's a guy who I know mostly only deadlifts and look the fuck it is back. So tell me it's not for your back. So I don't wanna say never because I would throw it in

at the end of the workout randomly, but it was never programmed, right? It would be like, oh, I'm bored. I have some time, I still have some energy. Let me do some lapel down, some like that. There was never any worries into it. And same with, so isolation work for my shoulders, never messed with like lateral raises or anything like that.

Those were probably the biggest thing because once I started actually using my shoulders, a lot of that pain went away. Surprise. Oh, interesting. So you actually had a correctional aspect from the bodybuilding type movements? I've actually used my shoulders a lot of that pain one way. Surprise. Oh, interesting. So you actually had a correctional aspect from the bodybuilding type movements?

Yes. Yeah, and for a long time, I still couldn't do lateral raises. I'd have to find other types of shoulder training that I could do without pain. And once I finally Brett Wilken, who's competing at the Arnold next week, he showed me how to do lateral raises in a way that I could without pain. And that made a huge difference. Now, one thing that I noticed that's different with,

I guess, training for strength specific type stuff versus just hypertrophy is strength specific type stuff. You tend to do a lot of sets of one exercise or two exercises. So I might do 10 sets of squats because that's the exercise that I'm trying to get strongest in versus body building where I'm doing a lot of different exercises. Maybe less sets per exercise, but just did you do that where you just throw in like maybe doing less of your other, you know,

traditional lifts and doing just more of other stuff. I was definitely doing less of the squat mentioned that lift, right? Because there's only so much stimulation you can get for your whole body with those three. Right. But I definitely wasn't doing as many exercises as I think you'd find in a traditional bodybuilding program, not because I think that's wrong, but because I couldn't wrap my head around, okay, if I'm doing three different types of rows,

how am I gonna know whether all three of these are progressing or if I'm just exhausting myself in the first one, so I have nothing left on the third one, that kind of messed with my head, because like you mentioned earlier, bodybuilding is really subjective, so if I didn't have those objective markers of, okay, I'm progressing in the gym, I didn't have those objective markers of, okay,

I'm progressing in the gym, it really got to me. Yeah, because I can imagine, you know, when you're, it's hard, I guess this is good to talk about for people listening. When you're training for performance, right, with powerlifting, which is strength, mentally speaking, it's a different feel in the gym. Here it's about leverage and strength and technique and energy. Whereas a bodybuilder, it's like feel the pump, feel the muscle, am I getting it tired? And the weights are really just the means to an end.

It doesn't matter how heavy or light it is as long as you're... So that's such a different... I know it sounds easy talking about it, but that must have been a really hard transition mentally just the way you worked out. Yeah, and I'm still not really great at it because I'm, I mean, I'm probably addicted to the dopamine rush at this point, right? But those big lifts where you kind of get that fight or flight response right before you get under the bar,

that to me is really fun. Be in in that moment and be like, okay, gotta call myself down so that I can do this properly. I really enjoy that. The body building is more meditative where it's like, okay, this is gonna be a long process and you need to be focused the entire 90 minutes that you're training.

That takes a different type of mental. Now the pump is, that's a big, bigger focus on bodybuilding and powerlifting. Only powerlifting is care if they get pumped or not. Were you getting, were you seeing different levels of that in how it felt in training? Yeah, that had been a big time. Very cool, right? Very cool. Yeah, and I mean that goes hand in hand with nutrition, right? If you're eating any carbs for powerlifting So adding both those in the different training the different nutrition the pumps were insane man to the point where they'd be like painful in a fun way

But yeah, yeah, yeah, to the point where they'd be like painful in a fun way. But yeah, it's cool. Yeah, because you don't want that in powerlifting. You don't want a power, a painful pump where you can't do your lifting. There's, you know, in some circumstances I will give my guy, the powerliftingers I coach, I'll give them exercises where I want to get, where I want them to get a pump, but it's either going to be the two, two times that would be is they're trying to get over some type of joint pain, right? I feel like the blood flow is beneficial for that.

Or they have a fault in their technique where they're really not using a certain muscle group. And you want them to feel it. Yes. Yeah, that's exactly how it used to apply. Now, what about the development in your physique? Because there's a lot of criticisms with powerlifting and how it develops your physique versus bodybuilding, for example, powerlifter might have a thick, deep back, but maybe the lats aren't very developed,

or the arms aren't going to match the rest of the body, or you may have good quads, maybe hamstrings might, maybe not so much, that type of stuff, or maybe here's a big one, the blocky waist versus the small waist and bodybuilding. Did you run into any of these types of issues with your physique as you? Absolutely. Again, that was another big mental challenge because it's a chicken and egg thing, right? Are you gravitating towards powerlifting because you have this structure that's better to lift the weight?

Is it a great question? Or did powerlifting develop this structure for you? I still don't know because I took physique pictures when I was powerlifting, right? But I'd always be trying to get the perfect angle. They weren't progress pictures, like you would do for check-ins for bodybuilding. So I have no idea. Now, I will say definitely the extremities in particular, right? The arms, the shoulders, the calves, those things way underdeveloped powerlifting. You just don't train them that much. Even the lats, I saw, you know, pretty big difference from adding in that that backwork other than deadlifts.

So I definitely think there's an aspect to it, but you know you're gonna get a lot of quad growth from squats. You're gonna get a lot of back development. You're gonna get a lot of back development from Benching. So it's I don't have a good answer for you, but I do know that a lot of the power lifters I look at have a far different shape, even given how strong they are on those lifts than you would expect. You look at a bodybuilder who can do the same amount of weight. They're going to be massively bigger in the different, a different look to their physique. They're going to have more cap shoulders.

They're going to have rounder packs. They're going to have thicker arms. Yeah. Here's something that's hard to explain that I've seen and I remember first reading about this years ago, I remember Arnold wrote about this and it's probably in the 70s and the article is something about how adding powerlifting training develops a more dense granite look to the physique versus always doing bodybuilding which is more of this kind of round, full, you know, bubbly look to the body. Now what's interesting is when I see

power lifters convert to bodybuilding, it seems to prove true. You definitely have the granite hard look and not the bubbly, flex wheeler, you know, look with the muscles. Is that something that is, you guys talk about, have you observed that yourself? Definitely observed it.

I've also, I've tried to look into it from research perspectives. I haven't found a lot that's going to support that, but it seems to be true, man. It definitely seems like the guys who train, who incorporate a lot of kind of pumping work for lack of a better term, they do have that bubblier look to them. Again, you got a wonder, are they bodybuilders because they had that naturally? Is that something developed through their training? Is it something related to the diet where their carbohydrate intake means they're going to store more glycogen so they're going to have that fuller look? I don't know.

I believe that has to do more with training. Personally, myself, I remember. I've seen the change in my self. I was the opposite, right? So I actually started as a young kid training like a bodybuilder. It wasn't until I got older, did I start incorporating more powerlifting? And the biggest difference that I noticed, well, I mean, there's a lot of different things. But one of the things I always struggled with as a young guy lifting and training for hypertrophy for the pump all the time, is I looked great in the gym. But then when I, as soon as I, two hours later, I would feel like I deflated all the way back

to like a normal looking physique. When I started to incorporate powerlifting and training really heavy, I didn't feel like I aired up as much, but I felt like that muscle, that muscle look stayed on me throughout the day, if that makes sense. Like I looked more muscular when I was flat and not pumped up. Yep.

So maybe it wasn't as extreme looking, but then I built like this muscle that stuck on me. It's just, it's hard for me to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it because there isn't any science to really support what we're saying, but I've seen it in several friends of mine that have experienced it in both directions. I've experienced myself and I really believe that

that has more to do in my opinion with the training than the body type. The other one I think has more to do in my opinion with the training than the body type. The other one I think has more to do with the body type. I do believe that when you see someone has kind of like boxy or hips or with that and they're also bad ass power with their, I think that helps. That helps. I think it's half of what makes them really good at that.

Just like you see, like I get this question a lot with female crossfit athletes. Like a lot of times girls are afraid to train some of those lifts because they're like, oh, all the girls in Crossfit have these really boxy hips. And I think that's, they are good at Crossfit because they have those hips, not those hips gave them. Yeah, then you get the weird anomalies

like Ronnie Coleman who had a really small waist and you know, they're lifting 800 pounds, perhaps. Yeah, so that's, there's stuff like that that happens. What about the stamina stuff? Because I've trained both ways in transitioning from lots of sets, lots of rest, low reps to, you know, now I'm doing 12, 15 reps in squats and lunges and rest is a lot shorter. It's like, man, the stamina, the lack of endurance, I have transitioning to that was just ridiculous.

Did you find that for yourself? Yeah, and again, I put on all that size really quickly, right? So it was hard for me to walk upstairs for a while. But yeah, it's definitely a lot different. And I think part of the transition was figuring out, okay, how can I make it so that I can push myself really, really hard, push push myself really, really hard, push my muscles really, really hard without just having my lungs being the limiting factor?

Yeah. Yeah, so what did you end up doing? Or did you just take time? It took time. Time was the big one But it was also there was some degree of movement selection and then there are other strategies you can use, right? Like super setting muscles that aren't antagonistic, you know, like doing chins and squats together, you can get more work done in the same period of time, or doing a lot of cardio, helped. What do the, I guess, advantages you think you had, competing at the level you did in power left into going to bodybuilding versus the other people

who just pure bodybuilders? I think the biggest thing was I had already put in a lot of time weight training, right? Like, because yeah, I was starting out from ground zero in bodybuilding, but I had still developed a lot of muscle from all that powerlifting. And so that gave me kind of a head start. The things that having the knowledge of, and I don't want to say biomechanics, just not a degree in that or anything, but having that kinesthetic awareness

that I built through learning to squat and deadlift and bench and have all my muscle groups work kind of synergistically, that definitely helped me to learn how to, because posing is a lot like that, right? Like your body has to move as one unit, even though in the gym, when you're training for bodybuilding,

you want to isolate those muscle groups. It's different when you're on stage when you're actually performing. So I can't help to make that regard. I also think a huge advantage that you had too was, and we talk about this in the show a lot, some of the best programming out there comes from powerlifting.

Because it has- There's objective. Yeah, and you have to be seeing this progress on weight on the bar, so you have to be very smart the way you program. And I think that there's not as much of that in bodybuilding. Absolutely. I think bodybuilding is... A lot of bodybuilder people who bodybuild kind of fooled themselves because it feels

this way, it feels that way. It's hard to fool yourself when you're powerlifting or Olympic lifting because are you stronger? It's either yes or no. So I could see that as an advantage as well. I absolutely agree. I've also one of the guys I work with Mike to share who's a great powerlifting coach, one of the best powerlifting coaches out there. He made the really good point that in powerlifting, the training drives the progress in bodybuilding to a large extent, the food and the drug stride the progress. So the weight on the bar increasing to some degree

can be just a result of the fact that you're eating more in your taking antibiotics. Oh, well, it's a dream. Now, what about the camaraderie? Like, you know, is it a different feel? Oh yeah, did you see what you like when you're eating? Like, what's the difference?

What's the difference? That is a great question. So I actually, it was so hard for me at first. It was so hard for me because I really, you know, there's the stereotype of the, you know, the douchebag bodybuilder who's posing in the mirror and everything. And I didn't want to be part of that. I actually worked with a sports psychologist because it was like, it was bothering me. And it was like, I really want to train with my powerlifting friends, the powerlifting gym, even though I'm competing in this. And she's like, well, you know, challenge yourself to make new

friends, essentially. And I had the advantage of, well, you know, challenge yourself to make new friends, essentially. And I had the advantage of, okay, I already have a pretty big following on social media, so people were more likely to talk to me and that made it really easy. And in hindsight, probably the single coolest thing about bodybuilding is that I did make so many new friends because everybody, I don't think that stereotype holds true at all. All the bodybuilders I've met have been really, really cool, really, really supportive of each other and really not egotistical at all.

What about competition day? Like, how different is that? Everybody's dead on competition. I'm in the auction. I'm gonna sit there staring into space, be like, I just wanna get this over and eat and powerlifting's not like that. In powerlifting, I think everybody's kind of like,

they're amped up, but there's a lot of camaraderie there that you don't get on stage because you have to be warming up on the same bar in the same backroom. Like you're trying to help each other out, you're trying to make sure everything goes smoothly. You've got people volunteering to help you, and you have that in bodybuilding too, but there's a lot less work to do in bodybuilding,

you're saying, okay guys, it's time to pump up versus, okay, like, what do you need for your next attempt? Who's going to win? You have this long until you need to be on the platform. There's a lot more logistical stuff that goes on, and I think that means people are going to be helping themselves. Yeah, now it seems like, in terms of like going from powerlifting to bodybuilding, there are some advantages there, but it doesn't seem like there's any advantages if you start off as a bodybuilder and switch over to powerlifting.

What would those be if you could think? I think that the volume of training that bodybuilders do for their upper body really seems to carry over well to the bench press. Bodybuilders almost universally seem to have really impressive bench presses, but that would be kind of like the big one. And then I think also power lifters tend to neglect hypertrophy training. And if they do, it's almost, if they do it at all, it tends to be more of an afterthought.

Especially right now, it seems kind of popular to just do squat bench and deadlift. And I think that is selling most lifters short. I definitely think if you're just managed including those lifts, in hindsight I'm saying. Now you've mentioned too with your shoulders like how you'd notice like that lock out and like that definitely benefited your overall performance physique.

Like what about your legs? Like did you do any split stance training? Did you do anything? I did a little bit, but I definitely think genetic wise, my legs were pretty good to begin with. So I didn't add a whole lot. One thing that I had to add, I added in leg extensions and the reason was one of my first posing classes was with Derrick Lundzford, who's the 212 Mr. Olympiano. And we're in the posing room and he's trying to teach me how to do an aventive pose and he's trying to get me to get the upper quads to separate

I just I can't I don't I don't understand we still have the control exactly And he's like do you do any leg extensions? I kind of scoff at him. I don't do leg extensions We have me do the hippie up ducking Yeah, and he's like well Do you got to start doing leg extensions at the top? You're really trying to feel that kind of squeeze where you've got the the Hip flex, but yeah but the knee extended. So I started doing them. And of course, he's right.

He's Mr. Olympia, and he was sort of talking about. But when you do those sorts of movements that are going to mimic what the positions you're in and on stage, it really helps a lot to develop that control. Yeah, you know, if it's fun, if you don't mind, I'll be a little objective about your physique when you first transition. Please. I didn't need to know you were a power lifter to see on stage when you were ripped and posing that you were a power lifter.

Now of course there's the like, okay, power lifters don't work, there are arms as much and all this. But one thing is when you turn around and you're back dwarfed a lot of the other bodybuilders. Now I could see the lat area, you know, obviously you probably didn't do a lot of lat work, but the thickness and development you're back dwarfed other bodybuilders.

And I typically see that with power lifters who transition into bodybuilding. And my best, I guess, explanation is the dead lifts. They just bodybuilders don't deadlift. And there's this argument about whether or not dead lifts are good for bodybuilder, do you think bodybuilders should all deadlift? I don't know if they all need the deadlift,

but yes, I think most bodybuilders should absolutely be deadlifting. I think it should be, it doesn't necessarily have to be back specific trading, right? Some people are going to have leverages where their deadlift is going to be more of a lower body lift. If they want to incorporate that on their leg diet, I think that's fine. It's still going to have carry over to the back development. Honestly, when I'm looking at bodybuilding programming, instead of coming from a body

part standpoint, I'm coming from a body part standpoint, I'm coming from a movement pattern standpoint. So I'm gonna tell anybody building, you need to have a hinge in your program. If it's a deadlift, if it's an RDL, if it's some other type of hinging movement, that you can feel where your erectors and lats and glutes and posterior chain are all engaged.

You're good. Yeah, that makes a big difference. Were there any exercises or things that you see yourself forever incorporating now in your training that wasn't there before? Were there things that bodybuilding highlighted or showed you? That's a good question.

So absolutely calf training. Calf training, I think every single power lifer needs to be doing that because if you're training your calves through a full range of motion, you're going to develop a lot of dorsiflexion, you're going to develop comfort having your calf under load. When you're in the bottom of the squat, that's exactly what's happening. When I see a lot of power lifters, you develop ankle or knee injuries and they never do any calf training.

I think if they did, they would have a lot fewer problems. That's so highlights and we just talked about in the show. I was telling the guys, when I worked on my squat depth, right, I had before, I had a really short, I could barely break 90 degrees, I had poor ankle mobility. I put a lot of work in that and now I comfortably can sit, ask to grasp my squat. One of the side effects of that that I would not have seen coming was I developed my calves more from that. And that's such a great point.

I think a lot of people neglect that. Any other ones besides that. So calf training for sure. So for me in particular, not so much from the issue because I think I do genetically have pretty good leg development. But one of the things that I learned, and I learned this training at MI40,

was that a lot of power lifters seem to have very weak upper hamstrings. And so I think a hamstring curl, like a lying hamstring curl, like a line hamstring curl. Oh, like the leg biceps. Yeah, because you don't do anything for that. It's all hip-pinging. Yes.

And it's shocking to me. You can put a power lift here, it's about 800 pounds. You can put them on a leg curl and you can try to have them use 50 pounds just at that end range, right? Just where they're really trying to get that upper hamstring engaged, and they can't do it.

They'll just kind of, you know, use momentum through that part of the lift. So that's something that I think I would definitely incorporate in more programming, maybe not for myself, but in general. Now did you notice any carryovers to your deadlift from strengthening, from doing leg curls? It's been pretty cool that I, and I was telling Adam this

before we started recording. Even though I haven't specifically been training for a heavy deadlift, it seems like my deadlift strength has really increased since I've started about it. What about your biceps? Because I have power left for friends and they don't like to train their butt. We don't need biceps for whatever. And then, I had one friend who started training his biceps and was like, I feel more stable in the deadlift with stronger biceps.

Did you notice anything from that or is it just a show muscle? So I've had problems with my deadlift grip because, so I, again, a lot of weight, right? My hands got a lot bigger. And so I have hard time holding on to the bar. Before I pulled hook grip and now that I'm bigger, my movement pattern is a little bit different. It's very difficult for me with a conventional stance

to pull in a straight line. With hook grip, if you're pushing the bar away from me, even a little bit, the bar's gonna spin and you're gonna lose that a lot of the, I don't know the physics term, but it's gonna be a lot harder to hold on the bar. So I can pull a sumo fine because then I do have a straight movement pattern

but I don't know whether the bicep training has helped my grip strength at all. Yeah, that makes a lot of sudden. So do you have to go alternate? No, so I've tried that. I tried hook grip. The only thing that I found that consistently works is a Sumo stance with a hook grip. And that's really one of the reasons that I haven't competed seriously in powerlifting since I started bodybuilding, which I haven't really figured out how to fix my grip issues. So I'm going to ask you maybe an offensive question to a powerlifting group. What about wrist straps? Why not use wrist straps in your... You know, straps. I do.

I've got a lot of competition. Okay, yeah. That's what I mean. I think we're allowed to meet 100% happy about that. 100%. Totally. All right, well let's get into the diet side, because this is something my NIST makes perfect sense. I mean, I think we're allowed to meet 100%. I'd be out there. 100%. Totally. All right, well, let's get into the diet side. Because this is something my NIST makes perfect sense.

You compete as a powerlifter in a weight class. You could not allow your body to get too heavy. So you as a body builder, which people, when they picture, if you just say powerlifter versus body builder, people tend to think the reverse. All powerlifers eat whatever they want, which is true if you're at the top weight class and you have, there's no more limit,

but if you're in a weight class, you can't do that. You have to keep your weight down, where's the bodybuilding? You know, if you're on stage and you're lean, if you have more muscle, I guess, the better, right? So what was that like? And, you know, what were you eating before and how did you change that? I was eating so little, when I was trying to stay one,

81, like I was talking about that last year in parallel thing, I was eating something like 1800 calories a day. Wow. Holy cow. Squad and Delif, 700 pounds of rest, we can then we can. I still look back, I'm like, what the hell was I thinking and how did I do that? Because it's just, it seems even more terrible in hindsight.

So I was, there was at one point where I was eating like six bags of spinach a day because it's low in calories, higher in food volume, just so that I wouldn't be like starving all day long. My potassium from all that spinach was like, it got elevated and high high potassium puts you at risk heart attacks. It was scary. So when I actually started eating for bodybuilding, I was able to put it on a lot of size really quickly, but I think we talked about this before the show too. The gut health issue is it's really uncomfortable trying to eat that much food, especially all those carbohydrates that I wasn't used to and they taste good, but you don't really feel

good afterwards. You feel kind of slow. So did you go from 1,800 to 5,000? You get to slowly. So my first purpose for classic physique, so I really wasn't eating anymore. And I ended up on stage at 184. But yes, after that, when I started training

actually for bodybuilding, I went straight from, I can't remember how many times, it was slightly more because I was doing more activity for bodybuilding. But I went straight from that to over 5,000 a day. Wow. Holy cow, how did you feel? Oh, dude, at that point, I was so hungry

after dieting for so long that like, I was still hungry on that. That, it was probably four or five months of eating that food. Plus a new training stimulus and everything too. So your body was just too good. It took a long time until my body was like, okay, we've had enough food.

And how did you, you had to break it up in the meals throughout the day? Oh yeah, I'm assuming. Now, looking that you've been from one extreme to the other with the weight and the food, what would you say if we weren't competing at all in anything if you were just looking for general health, where do you think your calorie intake

and weight would look like? I'm not gonna lie, I'd think about that a lot, cause I really wanna give you the point where, I just wanna feel good, right? I don't wanna feel so uncomfortably huge, I don't want to feel so uncomfortably huge. I don't want to be like starving all the time. So I think for me, it would probably be around two, 15 to 20 when I was competing at 198 in power lifting.

I was pretty comfortable. Didn't have to do those extreme wheat cuts. Was eating an amount that, you know, kind of felt right. I think for me, calories would probably be around 3,500 because I'm still going to train. I love training. I don't want to back off from that. But yeah, probably, probably a good 30 pounds less than I weigh right now and probably about 30% fewer calories.

So let's see, what was your body? You were walking around, you said like what, 210 when you were a power lifter? When I was competing in a, competing at 198, I was walking around 215, 210. 215, 210. And then for 181 was 205, 210. Okay. And then body building, where are you hitting your,

you've obviously put on a lot of size. What do you weigh in the off season, what do you compete at? The highest I've ever weighed in on the off season was 272. Wow. And so hold on, that's a 60 pound, essentially 60 pounds heavier. Yeah. Okay, all right. And then when you, and you don't, by the way,

people don't follow your Instagram, you always have apps. I've never seen you have not have abs. So it's like you're 270 fat. No, I mean, that's just genetic. It's not like, you know, do anything special for that. But yeah, I always stay pretty lean. That's not hard at all. It's, it's still uncomfortable.

It doesn't matter if it's muscle or fat, right? Like it doesn't feel good to play that point. Such a good point, you know? Yeah. But yeah, so 272 absolute highest point in the off season. My stage weight for my last show is 246. Well, okay, so you so the difference you're literally lean body mass wise. It's probably more than this because you were obviously more shredded on bodybuilding stage, but it's at least 50 pounds. Yep. How fast did that come on? So I put on most of that size, I think in the first eight months or so.

Like it's great when I start eating. What is that per month? It's like almost, that's like seven, eight pounds a month. Honestly, a lot of it, so a lot of it was like water retention, right? Sure. Like the first three months, I put on something like, it had to be something like 60 pounds in the first three months. Water, right? Like, including all the months.

Okay, half of it. Just're still 30 pounds in the middle of my life. Yeah, it was insane. Like, I'd take my socks off and my feet would, you know, I had that edema. Yeah. It was crazy. So, most of it was all at once. And then it took me a long time because I don't remember

if we were on air when I said this, but like, hard to walk upstairs and stuff. So, I had to stay there until I kind of like got comfortable and that was around the 240 range. And I had another big push and got from there to about 270. And that's kind of been where I've stalled out just getting past that is. Now even though you're switching over to the bodybuilding type training, I got to imagine you putting on that much muscle that much weight.

You're also seeing strength gains too. Yeah, it's interesting because they haven't been as large as you would expect and a lot of that I think is because your leverages change so much. When I was competing in parallel to the lower weight classes my technique was weird. I don't think there was from a technical standpoint I think it was sound but it looked very uncomfortable, it looked very unconventional because I had to work around my leverages. So I developed these movement patterns that worked for me when I was that size, but they don't work anymore.

So I had to change those. Didn't you have more of a forward bend in your squat? I had a lighter versus now you look more upright. Way more, way more because there was almost no hip engagement in my old squat. It was all quad. And I just didn't have the hip musculature to support that weight. So now that I do, I can use my hips and it does seem to have made a pretty big difference

in my squat. I don't think that I haven't like pushed, pushed my squat, but I think if I did, I could probably get to 800 and sleep. That has to be so weird to try. I mean, that's like taking to put that in perspective. I'm actually like a tiger woods or someone who's been swinging a golf club the same way

for their whole career as a professional, then all of a sudden we're, you know, add 15, 20 pounds to your body, and we're gonna swing different. Well, if, okay, so it'll give you an example. It's like, when you see a kid grow, like go through their teenage years, and they grow really fast,

and then they move awkwardly. They're not used to their body. And I experienced this in, when I competed in Jiu-Jitsu, I put on 15 pounds, took a couple months off, went back, my technique was off. And it was not because I don't remember the technique because I don't know how to use my body with, and that was 15 pounds.

So going to the gym with 60 more pounds on your body, was it like totally new? Yeah, and it wasn't fun. It was kind of a, it kind of messed with me a little bit because you've done this thing for so long. You feel like you're really competent at it and all of a sudden you're not. And relearning those moot patterns, once I kind of got the hang of it, I was like, oh, this is cool. Look, I can do this differently now. But at first, it was really, really difficult. And like I said, I still haven't completely figured out the deadlift. So let's talk about your peaks then.

Okay, let's talk about your highest deadlift in squat and bench when you're at your lightest. And then what are those numbers look like at your biggest? How close are they? So at my lightest, so when I was one of you, so I squatted 760 in the gym at 181, but I think my best meat squat was 750 or 749, one of those. My best squat now, I've done, let's see, I did 730, so that was in wraps.

I did 735, pause and sleep, because I'm doing all these weird variations. I did a total of, I think it was 725 bar weight and another 135 chains. And that was the most. Wow, so not that crazy. It's not a crazy, for someone who's got 15 more pounds. Exactly. A muscle on his body. Not that much more.

No, definitely not. My best deadlift at 181 was 782. I think it might have been 771, it was one of those. And my best, well, I pulled A55 down with straps, but without straps, I don't think I could do 782. Wow. My bench went up a lot. My best, my best bench at 1801 was 402,

and I've been at 404. Now, we didn't go, we were going through most of your muscle groups and you were kind of saying, and I want, actually before Sal and I wanted to ask you, if there was anything related to the chest that you attribute to, like as far as how you were training, did you do something different, whether it be dumbbell stuff or machine work,

what did you do for your chest? I will admit, I love this myth machine for chest work. It's so nice because one of the things that you're doing in parallel to trying to really optimize your bar path and to make it as efficient as possible. And with the bench press, that means the bar is going to kind of drift over your face as you press because that's going to help you get, it's going to help you utilize your triceps.

You're saying as you're coming down, it's almost got this arched. So training that way is really minimizing engagement of the pecs of the top. And I developed a really, really hard sticking point where if I wasn't in the perfect groove, there's no way in hell I was gonna lock out that bench press. So being able to train in the Smith machine where it's a straight bar path really helped me develop the skill to push through that sticking point

if I was a little bit out of the groove because I was more used to training my muscle in that position. Did you mess with elbow flare and stuff on the regular bench press too? Did you do things like that? Did you mess with elbow flare and stuff on the regular bench press too? Did you do things like that? So I tried. It didn't help on the regular bench press, but it does help on the other movements.

So if I'm pressing with dumbbells or I'm pressing with a Smith machine, that way I can engage my pegs a little bit more. It doesn't feel safe to me on a heavy bench press. The stretch on the peg under, you know, 450 plus, it's not something I want to read. Yeah, try doing a gearillotine press with heavy weight. Yeah. And you can really feel that in the upper chest. Oh, absolutely.

Heavy, you're not going to feel. Yeah. You're not going to feel any weird exercises that you did that you never tried before. Ooh, that's a good question. Let's see. Weird exercises. There have been a few. Chris and I, just the other day, we were doing, we're trying to do like a sissy leg press.

Oh, where you got your feet real low and real close. Yeah, and your hips come up off the pad. Yeah, that was pretty cool. Let's see, what are some other good ones? We've done a lot of weird super sets. One that I, one that I really like is mechanical drops set where you're doing kind of a seated row and you start leaning way forward. Then when you fatigue there, you sit straight up.

Oh, I see. And then you start leaning back. So you make the lever easier as you go? Yeah, that type of stuff is really interesting to me. But I don't know if there's anything that I've come up with other people who wouldn't have seen or any. What are some of the things that you,

like what do you think power lifters could learn from bodybuilders and vice versa? So power lifters, I think I mentioned this earlier, but I really think they need to be doing more isolation training. I think that whenever you're trying to address a weak range of motion in one of your lifts, there's almost always going to be a weak muscle group

associated with that. Very similar to what I talked about with the Smith machine on the bench rest. And I think that if you're able to identify those connections, you're gonna be a better power lifter for that. Very similar to what I talked about with the Smith machine on the Ventsrest. I think that if you're able to identify those connections, you're going to be a better powerlifter for that. Bodybuilders, I think they should really periodize their training more. We talked about how bodybuilding training is really simplistic, and it's almost always some type of linear progression. But if you're an advanced bodybuilder, how long is that going to be sustained?

Of course. How long are you going to be able to add 10 pounds to your leg press? Yeah. Like, if you periodize your training, you're going to make progress for a lot longer in terms of strength, and eventually that is going to be manifest of the size. Yeah, so going back to when you gained all that size in that short period of time, like, was it weird? Did it hurt?

Like, what did it feel like? Because that's a very, the only time, I think, most people ever experienced that percentage of lean tissue growth is probably when they're babies or maybe even teenagers. So as a grown man, gaining that much lean body mass that short period of time, was it were you sleeping all the time? Was it like, it was bizarre. It was really weird.

Yeah. So yeah, my sleep was a lot better. I think my energy levels throughout the day were better, and that was probably because I wasn't starting myself, but it was extremely uncomfortable. Putting on shoes was really difficult. Going upstairs was really difficult. Even walking, if I was trying to go for a longer walk, I'd get winded faster. It was all completely new to me because I had been that size for my entire adult life, right?

So it was really, really challenging to try to get used to it without getting emotionally attached to the way I used to feel. Mm-hmm. I see. Now, you had mentioned body building a lot of it relies on drugs and diet, whereas powerlifting relies on training. If it's okay, I'd like to get into the drug aspects of professional of these professionals. How different are they? So I've always read that powerlifter. I know there's certain anabolic that powerlifters favor

because of their effect on aggression and strength, and then bodybuilders like other kinds, because of the size or whatever. Like what are the big differences that you see in the drug use in the different sports? Well, yeah, so the first point I think bodybuilders, at least in the offseason, you're trying to minimize the anglerogenic side effects you're getting

as much as possible, right? Because to a large extent, the higher the dose, the more size you're gonna put on. And if you're getting a lot of aggression, you're getting a ton of acne, you're getting night sweats, you're getting insomnia, all things that typically are associated with some of the stronger angrogens, you're not

going to be able to make it that much progress if you're recovering better or you're feeling better. Bodybuilders really try to minimize the androgens in the off season. They're going to lean more towards the anabolic, going to put them more in size. Things like DECA, things like EQ, things like Primo, power lifters want those androgens because typically the androgens are ones that are also going to have some effect on the central nervous system They're a result in better contractile output. Thank you stronger exactly right so For those, you know, you're gonna have the compounds that would be typically associated with a bodybuilding meet prep

Bodybuilding meet prep bodybuilding show prep right so things like a Mastron things like trend thingsron, things like trend, things like halo, things like anodrol, which I guess wouldn't really be in many bodybuilding show prep. So I've heard of it in a few. And that's because they give you a harder look to your physique. So bodybuilders, we use it, and also there's a fat burning effect

from the high endrogens, is that correct? That is, yeah, but I think parapherners are specifically using it because, and I don't know the pharmacology enough to be able to explain this in detail, but those androgens tend to help your muscles work better, right? Because you can gain strength through a number of different ways, right?

You can make your muscle bigger, you can get better technique, your central nervous system get more efficient. And steroids can help with all those, maybe not the technique aspect, but in some ways, you can make an argument for like better neurological learning, right? So the Androgens will have a more of a direct effect on the power lifter success than the anabolic swell. The other thing is, and you mentioned this earlier, the power lifters are trying to stay in

a weight class for the most part unless they're a super heavy guy. So they're going to be limited in the total milligrams they can use because like I said earlier, typically a higher dose means bigger size. So if you're trying to stay in my case, 198 or 181, you're not going to be able to use 700 milligrams of testosterone because you're going to be outside of your weight class. And if you're gaining size to add this strength and your goal is to compete, well, you're going to be outside of your weight class. And if you're gaining size to add this strength and your goal is to compete, well, you're not going to be more competitive

because you're going to be up against bigger guys who have that same advantage. So because of that, would you say in bodybuilding, you see a lot crazier doses? Way higher doses. Like astronomically higher doses. Oh, wow.

Yeah. What about in the unlimited weight classes and powerlifting? Is it still? Honestly, the super What about in the unlimited weight classes and power of things is still? Honestly, the super heavy guys that I've talked to and work with, they tend to use some of the least amount of gear. Wow. And I mean, I think that goes to the point

where generally a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle. Right. So if you can put all that size without the gear, well then you're still, you're gonna be just a strong, right? So they, at least from what I've don't they don't push the doses crazy hard It's more of those lighter guys who are running, you know, high levels of drugs that aren't gonna add much size So you don't use them hundreds of milligrams of anivar or you know Lots of halo or trend or things like that. Yeah, was it Helotiston, is that you're referring to?

Yeah. Yeah, that's a very, I mean, bodybuilders talk about that being like a waste of time. Like, oh, yeah, you get stronger and aggressive. You don't really have any size. Powerlifters love it for that reason. Yep. Because they get that.

Yeah. Any commonalities is testosterone a commonality between the two, just the dose is different? Yeah, for most people, I think everybody uses testosterone. I don't know. I don't know anybody personally, well, I know one person who avoids testosterone completely and he can be some parallel to your use too. But I think pretty much everybody uses testosterone because I mean, everybody

has a life outside of competition, right? You don't want to give up the biological functions that testosterone is going to provide. So what about growth hormone? Is that, I know that's a bodybuilding drug, power lif. What about growth hormone? I know that's a bodybuilding drug. Power lifters mess with growth hormone? Generally, at least at the top levels, they're gonna be running fairly low amounts. I don't know of anybody who runs more than about three I use a day.

I definitely wouldn't recommend it because the water retention in your hands you're gonna get is really gonna mess with your grip. You don't need more than that for recovery purposes. You're gonna get the benefits from sleep, recovery, joints, all that. You're gonna get that from that little of a dose. So it's definitely beneficial to an extent,

but it's a small extent. Well, you've now had the opportunity to probably experiment with a lot of different anabolic. Do you have favorites and why and any least favorites and why. Yeah, so my philosophy now is to try to stay as much as possible in the antibiotics that have been tested in humans and improved for human use

because that's gonna be safer. That's like three or four I think, right? Yeah, there's not a whole lot. So generally the safest compounds are gonna be the bio-diagnocal ones, right? The ones your body produces naturally. So testosterone, growth hormone, if you're talking about peptides, things like PPC, those are going to be safer than the synthetic ones as a general rule.

Then if you're trying to add size, my go-to is always going to be permeable and it's probably the cleanest that's a very vague term, but it's a very tissue selective. So it's going to make your muscles bigger, but it's not going to have other types of side effects, right? That you might get from harsher inheritance. Yeah, that was Arnold and Franco's favorite drug back in the 70s and 80s. They brought Primo from Europe, and that's what they would use over here. While everybody else was using DECA.

Yup, and the similar things to Prim Bon are going to be the other DHT derivatives, right? So we talked about Mastron, Anivaris, and the similar things to primbona are going to be the other DHT derivatives, right? So we talked about Mastron, Anivaris, another one. Those are going to be kind of the compounds that I would lean towards. They're going to be safer in their pros. For the most part, you're going to get more or less the same benefits milligram per milligram that you would from other drugs. It might not be as fast, but you know, if you're just trying to rush things, but you're not going to get the best results anyway.

Yeah, yeah. No, at some point, I think for bodybuilding, I don't know any bodybuilders, you know, if you're just trying to rush things, but you're not gonna get the best results anyway. Now, at some point, I think, for bodybuilding, I don't know any bodybuilders, you can get away, get on stage without using trend, as harsh as it is. Like, it gives you a look that other compounds seem not too. For powerlifting, I really don't like trend. I think that, for me, it's insomnia, right? And when you're not able to sleep, you're not able to recover, you're not able to lift heavy weights. Like able to recover, you're not able to lift heavy

weights like the training has to come first for powerlifting. So those are typically the ones that I kind of lean towards. I try to stay away from the ones that either failed clinical trials, which they're a lot of them, or the ones that have the kind of scarier long-term side effects, especially like the neurodegenerative issues, which it's not, we don't totally understand these drugs. It's not ethical to run studies where you're giving somebody hundreds and hundreds of milligrams of, you know, dionibol a day

and see what happens over 10 years. But, you know, I try to err on the side of caution as much as possible. Any surprising effects, like I remember the first time I experienced deballs, I was so blown away by the strength gains, it was like freakish. Every time I got to the gym to do shoulder press, I had to add 10 to 20 pounds to my lift, like every time.

Anything that like surprised you like that, that was like abnormally crazy. The only one that sticks out to me like that is Metal Tron, which is one that I wouldn't recommend people use because it's not really a very healthy drug, but I can take that small amount like 500 micrograms, right? So half a milligram before training, and it feels like a cheat code, man. It feels like just anti-gravity.

I don't even know that existed. Is that a newer compound? I don't really know the history of it, but it is getting more pot. I mean, at this point in both sports, I think it's kind of an anything goes whatever you can get your hands on type deal. So. Now I'm sure people are listening to like,

oh my God, what about your health and all that stuff? And there's definitely, I mean, let's be very clear. You know, when you're looking at using anabolic and a medical setting, replacing hormones. There's the very healthy when you're using them outside of it, there's not a lot known, there's lots of risks, potential health issues, and we see this in some probioty builders, what happens later on.

Do you get monitored? Do you get your liver enzymes and kidneys checked and you know that stuff? Yeah, so I get blood work regularly. I've gotten, I've had my blood, so what is it February? So I've had my blood work done three times in the past three months, right? So I get, I get pretty get blood work regularly. I've gotten, I've had my blood, so what is it February? So I've had my blood work done three times in the past three months, right? So I get pretty regular blood work

and I consult with a doctor and all that to make sure that there's nothing, definitely nothing that's gonna be acutely concerning, nothing short term, but also nothing that, it looks like it would be a long-term problem if it is something that we gotta address at least in the off season, right? If you're prepping for a competition for a short period of time, you got to do what you got to do. Now, what I haven't done or what

I do need to do is get like heart scans, because blood work can only tell you so much, right? And you can get a pretty good feel of, okay, are my kidneys okay? Are my liver okay? But when it comes to the heart, it's like, you can get blood tests for your, to see what your heart is functioning at, but unless you get that scan, you don't really know it. You don't know if it's grown. Exactly. Yeah, because that becomes an issue, right? You don't know if it's grown.

Exactly. Yeah, because that becomes an issue, right? You don't know if it's grown. Exactly. Yeah, because that becomes an issue, right? You don't know if it's grown. Exactly. Yeah, because that becomes an issue, right?

You don't know if it's grown. And even some of the other tests that are, you know, looking at heart function, don't give the full story, unless you get like an echocardiogram and you get it. You get any red flag, have you had any red flags going through this way? I mean, you gained so much muscle and you had changed your anabolic use, you talked about insomnia. I would imagine you would have seen some changes in the blood work that you had to address. Honestly, since I've gotten bigger, my blood work has been awesome.

It's awesome. Almost the only red flag I ever had was when I was trying to do those crazy cuts. I think I mentioned this. My potassium was like elevated to scary levels. And that was when it was like, oh, I got to change something. Six bags of spinach.

Yeah. Wow, that's really interesting. Now let's go back to the insomnia. I also hear, I mean, put up that much size. Look, I've gained 15 pounds and I started snoring, which I haven't done in a long time. Did you get any like sleep apnea and you snoring? Yeah, yeah, I got really bad sleep apnea to the point,

oh man, this, so I forgot to mention this when you asked about adding all that size because I've had a CPAP now for close to six months, I think. And it's been night and day, but before that, dude, I was scared to go to sleep because I would go to sleep and I would have dreams of like suffocating today. Oh my gosh. And I would wake up just like gasping for air and I'd be scared to go go to sleep and I would have dreams of like suffocating to them. Oh my God. And I would wake up just like gasping for air.

And I'd be scared to go back to sleep. I'd be like, I don't want to have that dream again. It'd be like your underwater and your lungs are filling up and your gasping for air and trying to talk through yourself. Just calm down, calm down, and then you wake up and be like, oh man, that was scary. All right, so I read a study on this. You know what they attribute that to?

The size, the growth of the muscle of the tongue, and then the throat. So those muscles grow, and then they kind of get in the way of breathing. So it's like, it's such a weird thing, right? That was terrible. The other thing that was terrible with sleep was the heartburn, from what I've read,

is it can be associated with sleep apnea. But there were points that I don't know if it was, because I was putting down so much food, right? But like I would throw up in the middle of the night and just wake up and I was so terrible. I remember one time I was supposed to have a cheat meal and like I wasn't hungry. I didn't want to eat anything and I decided I could put down some Cheerios. So I have like a whole box of Cheerios and I throw the Cheerios up in the middle of the night and it was all just that sour taste

just stuck with you. I have not had Churros since then, it's been like three years. There's no side effects to getting that big effect. There's definitely people in our audience are listening to going like, what the fuck this guy is crazy. Yeah, why would you do all of this? Why push yourself to that limit? Well, it's really hard for me not to be competitive. It's like, I get my mind on a goal, and the goal involves competition. It's like, I'm not gonna stop till I get there. Yeah, I had this you most,

you probably almost relish in the challenge in these hurdles, right? It's a lot easier. It was fucking easy. Everybody could do it. Yes, it's a lot easier for me to mentally deal with the fact that this is really hard, and I really wanna accomplish this, and I gotta figure out a way to do it. Yes, it's a lot easier for me to mentally deal with the fact that this is really hard And I really want to accomplish this and I got to figure out a way to do it then where I'm at now where it's like

What do I want to achieve right trying to fit answer that question is extremely difficult? Yeah, I had this conversation with a family member or they were we were talking about this and like why would anybody Want to do something crazy like that. I said you know, it's funny. Nobody asks Professional football player that question or a drag racer that question, right? Like they're just as crazy. It's just as dangerous, especially if you look at the, like for example, pro football, it's an easy one. You look at their lifespan.

They're living to their 50, something 60 years old. They're literally hitting each other with the force of a small car collision every game. So it's not any crazier. It just sounds crazier, I think, because people are not, you know, there's not many fans of bodybuilding. Oh, so as you get started, it's accepted, that's all.

Yeah. So the general population, it seems, we're freaks or weird, it's different, and so you're right, it's a great point, though. Yeah. You're also not making the money they are. Yeah, that's another question. That's, I can't argue that.

You know what I mean? You live in your apartment, you barely can afford it while you do all this to yourself, definitely. So now has this been good for your business to be able to change your, because, okay, I could see the benefit in lifting a lot of weight being light.

That's like, wow, that's really impressive. But then there's the other side where social media, you know, it definitely rewards looking a particular way, especially if you look extreme, there's a certain, you know, type of fan that, oh my gosh, you know, he definitely rewards looking a particular way, especially if you look extreme. There's a certain type of fan that, oh my gosh, he's so massive, he looks so crazy. Did it affect your business positively to make this transition? It absolutely did, but I actually think it did because I was reaching a new market as opposed to the people that I was reaching before really wanted to see this type of transformation.

I think it's more just like people people were interested in bodybuilding before and now start following me, right? And now start asking me for advice. Do you get any hate? I was just going to ask that from the powerlifting community for leaving it to you. Or even the bodybuilding community for how dare you come into our sport and think you could do well. No, it's really, really funny.

In parallel to, I had a lot of haters, right? They were my squat forum really upset some people. I remember there was one comment. I can't remember for his Instagram or YouTube, but somebody said my squat ruined his life. She is dude, get a life. But no, everybody from both sides super, super supportive of bodybuilding, which was really, really cool to experience. Oh, that's that's that's really good to hear. Yeah, because you as you always think that there's going to be a little bit of issues with, you know, one side versus I mean, I definitely get people telling me, oh, I want to see you come back to powerlifting.

I want you to do a pro show. And, but it's always like good nature, right? Like they're encouraging. Now, what do you think, because earlier, when you were talking about the weight that you can lift versus the size, right, people, I think sometimes have a tough time understanding, like, you gain 60 pounds, but you can only lift another 15 pounds of a bar or maybe none. It doesn't make sense. And we've explained this in other episodes that strength is more of a skill than anything. There's a lot of technique involved. It's very specific to the way you train. Bodybuilding is really about fatiguing a muscle and trying to minimize actually in some cases how much you can lift so that you can continue to build more. So it's very different.

But now that you have the size, now that you've got all this extra muscle, if you went back to pure powerlifting, just see what you could do. What do you think that would land you? Okay, so if I were to go 100% in on powerlifting, let's say for the rest of my career, the absolute upper ceiling, I think would probably be somewhere around 2,300,

and I think probably more reasonable would be it's a 2,200 total. So that would be the best squat bench and I left. My best up 198 was 2039, right? So I would be 50 pounds heavier, lifting about 150 pounds more. So figure out about 50 pounds to each lift, which is a pretty moderate amount. That would assume that 100% of my training is dedicated towards parallel lifting. That total is going to be far far far less competitive than my 198 was. First of all, because parallel lifting has grown a lot, and so you have a lot of new

people with a lot of skill and a lot of time and a lot of effort and a lot of great genetics who are now competing at that level. And second of all, because the people I was competing with before have this whole time that I've been bodybuilding, they've been working on their parallel lifting, so they've gotten better. So from a competitive standpoint, compared to other people, I'd be way worse off. Just comparing it as myself, I'd be stronger, but maybe not as strong as you would expect having added all that. Oh, I see. Now, from like, if you had to train a particular way forever, now just to be healthy and fit,

forget the drug extremes, because then it's easy to make this comparison, but let's just say, you know, training style. Yeah, training style for the rest of your life, which one do you think is more conducive to better longevity and quality of life? Oh, I honestly think it would be a combination. I think it would be good answer. Yeah, using some sort of, you know, typical powerlifting

program, but not training for maximum weights. Training more with a typical body building kind of set in reps scheme. Yeah, you know what I'm finding is I get old. So I've done both, I have fun doing both. I love strength, I love it, it's just fun. But I found that once I got now in 43 and I've gotten to a certain amount of weight for my body,

which is a lot, that I prefer now more bodybuilding because like to add more to the bar, the risk versus reward just isn't great anymore. Now, if I had 10 more pounds, that's great, and I'd be excited, but I feel like my injury risk would be up too high, I just wouldn't make any sense. I completely agree. I just think that there's also a benefit to doing, I think the full body training has a lot to be said for that.

So it's like, maybe you don't need to do a squat, but you can be doing a hex squat as your squat variation, and then you can be doing a hex squat as your squat variation, and then you can be doing some type of heavy row that you're doing on a body-building style instead of doing a deadlift on a particular day. Some type of pressing movement that's maybe not a straight bar bench for us, but maybe it's a press on the Smith machine.

I think that type of training, at least for me, that would be more enjoyable and probably for that reason more productive than doing a typical body part. I imagine that's gotta be one of the, I mean, fears you have of now getting this big and then going back to powerlifting is potentially injury because you were already like the peak to try and squeeze out a little bit more. We've already talked about your movement pattern is changing a little bit and then also thinking you're going to add weight to the bar. You little fear

around that? Absolutely. And at age to that too. Right. Yeah, absolutely. There's definitely a big risk when you're trying to lift maximum weights no matter what the circumstances are. And I think the things that I've done in the past few years have only added to that risks. And the guys I was competing with when I was at my peak in parallel lifting, a lot of them have had to deal with that stuff.

And they've done absolutely and doing that. But I look at them and I power lifting. A lot of them have had to deal with that stuff and they've done absolutely and doing that. But I look at them and like, man, what would I do in that situation? My friend, Andrew Herbert, he, he tore his adductor training for his last meet. And it was like a bad one where he needed surgery and stuff. And, you know, it was on a 400 kilo squat, right? 881. And, you know, so taking that type of way to still like, in sleeves is just like astronomical. But then I look at that and I'm like, how would I cope with that injury right now?

Like, is that something I want to deal with? Yeah. Is there a power lifter in a body builder that you're like really impressed with or that you kind of keep an eye on on the each category? Is there? Well, I mean, John Hack right now is doing just incredible things from power lifters.

It's really fun to watch Okay, and he and I were competing together at a lot of meats on 2016 2017 2018 So yeah, he's definitely definitely the parallel sure that I look up to for bodybuilding That's a tougher one for me Because I mean there's the guys I like to watch because they're entertaining Yeah, and then there's the guys I try to watch because they're entertaining. And then there's the guys I try to, I would want to emulate, right? Right. Look like what I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, the guys that I would want to emulate are the ones that are able to kind of

step back from competition, able to have, you know, kind of, um, broader lives, I guess you could say, while still maintaining that sort of, speaking of a lot broader lives and, you know, we talked a little bit off air, but, you know, what's, uh, what's in the future for you, business wise? What are you currently doing right now? What's going on with that? So right now, I'm mostly focused on coaching. I'm trying to get a little bit more into coaching nutrition for strength athletes because I do think that's an overlooked area where I could add some value. In terms of competition for myself, I want to do a pro show at some point. Again, we've talked about the sacrifices you have to make to do that, but I want to know

what it kind of feels like to get on a pro stage. I still love powerlifting. My training partner competes in strong man, so that's something I want to have fun with. Oh, I saw you doing some strong man type stuff. How's that? It's fun, man. It's a blast getting to move like that with heavy weights. It's really, really cool. But in terms of like pushing myself to those same extremes, I'm not sure those are trade-offs

that I'm gonna wanna make forever. So yeah, we were talking off air. Like, one of the goals I have for myself, I wanna get on Joe Rogan at some point. I'm just like, I guess, I think that would be cool. And I mean, it would be a good goal, but at the same time, it would take me, it would allow me to kind of push myself in ways

that aren't directly physical, right? So, and I think that's something that would be healthy and probably be fun for me. Well, I imagine that you're back to the age thing, right? You're probably getting to an age now or you're starting to think like that. Okay, I recognize that I need to have some crazy goals in my life,

but they don't always have to probably be super physical. So try to reframe that for yourself. It was funny. I was on a call with Dave Tate a few months ago. I guess a couple months ago. And so he owns the lead FTS, one of the biggest powerlifting companies out there. And he's been a mentor of mine for a long time.

And I'm talking about the same thing with him. And I'm saying, man, I want to do a pro show, but I'm getting older and maybe time to hang it up. And he cuts me off. He's like, you've been telling me that for at least five years. Just do the show. Yeah, I'm not lying there, so.

That's hilarious. You know, going from one strength sport, or I guess resistance training, strength training type sport to another, it probably didn't make you feel more open to other types of strength training. Like, you know, you have powerlifting, you have bodybuilding style training,

you have strong man style training. Then you have kind of the performance that you see in maybe some crossfit style training or people who are more athletic minded. What I found personally, Then you have kind of the performance that you see in maybe some cross-fit style training or people who are more athletic minded. What I found personally, and this is how we write all of our programs, is we find that, well, the average person is going to, there's something you can take from each one of them. And oftentimes people get stuck in one, develop their camp and not even realize that there's benefits from, didn't make you more open-minded to all this other, all these other ways of training. Absolutely. And it's funny because my graduate degree is in the history of physical culture,

which is all types of training. So you'd think going to school for six years for it, you'd be open-minded, be in with, but no. Until I started bodybuilding, I was very set in my ways. Like, this is the way powerlifter is trained. This is how I want to train. I want to be a powerlifter. And now it's a lot broader.

Have you tried any sled work? Oh, yeah, I love sled work. Oh yeah, so let's talk about that. So that's something that no power lifter and nobody builder did for a long time. And now you're starting to see it permeate the strength for those who are like purely athletic. What benefits did you get from that? Well, first of all, it's fun. Right.

Second of all, you're getting some type of conditioning work in. And I think from the bodybuilding side, the benefits that are obvious, right? From the powerlifting side, I think a lot of people go in with And I think from the bodybuilding side, the benefits that are obvious, right? From the powerlifting side, I think a lot of people go in with the idea that, oh, well, I've squatted this in the gym, and I bench pressed this, and I can deadlift this. So I can do that in a me easy. And then they get to the meat,

and they realize by the time deadless roll around, they're exhausted. So including more conditioning work of that sort, it allows them to kind of build up their endurance in that regard, right? It's not the same type of endurance you would have running a 5K, you don't need to be able to do that,

but you do need to have some gas on the tank if you're gonna be doing along with it. I noticed a total, like, it's gotta be the lowest risk type resistance training. Like I didn't notice my joints felt, maybe because there's no eccentric portion of the rep, but I could drive a sled for 40 minutes and never have issues with my knees or my hips.

Did you notice anything like that? Oh yeah, absolutely. You'll get crazy sore from it too. Yeah, and I think that has something to do with the lack of an eccentric portion as well. I actually think my training partner and I were discussing this the other day, there's no real term for the lifts

that you don't have to perform the eccentric on, right? And it's like sled work, things like dead lifts. You don't really have to perform an eCentric. Olympic lifts. Yeah. And even though those should probably never be the bread and butter of your hyper-itre-itre-itre training, I do think they have a place.

Hard of a sum. So we were trying to come up with a name for it and there, if you guys watch Rick and Morty, the cartoon show, they... I fucking love it. Yeah, so they have the plumbus and nobody knows the plumbus. So that's the plumbus part of the rap.

The eCentric that you don't have to do. Yeah. Well, I think it's more, it's less of what it does for you and more of what it doesn't do to you and then how that allows you to program it. It's a great way to build volume without all the extra damage. I can drive a sled every day and not have too many negative effects on my recovery and my joints, whereas other exercises with these entries, I can't. I can't so much. Have you messed around with isometrics or holds? Yes. What do you think about that?

I think I like them. I think they can't be used in isolation. Back in the 70s, I think there was a big push for isometrics training. And it got to the point where that would be all people would do and see the same results. That was also the time steroids were getting more popular, which helped isometric training to get in a vogue. I definitely think there's a big, a lot to be said for isometric training, especially if you're incorporating it into your regular sort of training. If you're doing isometric holds at the top of every rep of a leg extension. I think you're going to be a lot more out of that set because leg extensions are not the most demanding exercise. If you're training your muscle does be comfortable in that position for lack of a better term.

I think that has a lot of carryover for both sides of your strength work. It's funny. You bring up isometrics and people, power lifters or bodybuilders, the general typical one with that, I don't know, I don't really want. If you really look at their training, power lifters you use versions of isometrics all the time. They do pause squats and they're always constantly changing the tempo of a lift, it's strength in a particular, which is a form of isometric. Bodybuilders pose. In pre-contest, they will add 30 minutes, 40 minutes,

an hour of posing to their training, which is all isometric. So the reality is they all do isometrics. They just don't even realize that it's programmed that way. Yeah, oh yeah, I love them absolutely. Very cool. Yeah, good stuff, man. Yeah, it's great talking to you. I really think you succeed in this way.

So it's really cool to get that kind of insight. So great, the things are coming on, man. Always good to see you, haven't we? Always good, senior brother. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at MindPumpMedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes maps and a ballad, maps performance and maps aesthetic.

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