Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1927: Performance Training Secrets from a Top NBA Trainer With Cory Schlesinger

Starting point is 00:00:00 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind, hop, mind, hop with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the world's number one fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Alright, NBA season is here and to celebrate. We got one of the best strength and conditioning coaches of the NBA on our podcast, Corey Slesinger,

Starting point is 00:00:30 super, super smart guy. I mean, every time I talk to the guy, I learn more and more about training, high performance athletes. He's actually one of the smartest people I know on the topic. In today's episode, we talk about performance training secrets that this guy taught us. I swear to God, he blew our minds several times in this podcast. We know you performance training secrets that this guy taught us. I swear to God,

Starting point is 00:00:45 he blew our minds several times in this podcast. We know you're going to love it. By the way, you can find them on Instagram at slash strength.com. Let me spell that because it's really weird. It's SCH L E S S T R E N G T H. So slash strength on Instagram. Great guy. lot of fun. Also, check this out. Go to stevencobrawl.com forward slash MP and you can get 50% off the stress mood and metabolism at home lab test plus a health coaching call. So 50% off you get a call plus you get to test those things with at home lab tests, but you can only find it at stevencobrawl.com-flourtslash-mp. Steven is STEPH-EN, and then C-A-B-R-A-L.com-flourtslash-mp. Once again, for the 50% off, stress mood and metabolism

Starting point is 00:01:35 at home lab tests plus the call with the next from his team. Also, we're launching a new program, Maps 15 minutes. This is the everyday workout program, only workout for 15 minutes. We also have a bonus advanced version, which is 20 to 25 minutes long. So whether you begin or advanced, it's a brand new type of program.

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Starting point is 00:02:50 Because it won't happen. You'll sign up, you'll follow it. You'll love it, like most of our programs. All right, here comes the show. Off air, we were talking about how competitive and I told you Mike, I had a high school girlfriend who went to college and ended up getting her degree and I think administration ended up working for the stable center hanging out with Kobe,

Starting point is 00:03:07 shack and all this. And me, like being in my early 20s, just dreaming of something like that. She told me, no, it's not all it's cracked up to me. It's like literally, it's hard. It's a lot of because it's so competitive. Is it like is it all time? Are there people eyeing for your job that are willing to come do it? Is that? Absolutely. I mean, I think there's people that would do it for free if they could. So then I got to create a value system that goes, well, no, of course, services are worth this. So we need to do this for him.

Starting point is 00:03:35 But that's the idea is I'm telling you, it's really competitive. It's so cutthroat. And that's where I think you see it a lot in industries where there's this safe guard guard or there's this very conservative approach to how you do your job to maintain your job. Oh, interesting. And that's where it's like you don't see a lot of people step outside the box or outside tradition because you know if you you stick out like a nail you're gonna get hammered at some point You know, so that's where you know like you can be a trendsetter, but it's dangerous.

Starting point is 00:04:05 I think it can be very dangerous. Is there, because it's so competitive, is there, like, because I know another organization's maybe smaller organizations where, you know, coaches, strength coaches in particular, we're all in the strength space, I guess, with fitness space. Lots of cross communication.

Starting point is 00:04:19 This works, this doesn't work. I tried this new technique. Did you apply this? But at your level, so competitive, is it more secretive? Like, I'll keep my tools for myself and you do your own thing. And let's see what happens.

Starting point is 00:04:30 That's a great question. I look at it like this. Everything works. It really does. It's just progressive overload, right? But it's so contextual in the person that you're working with and the environment that you're in. And I think that's where everybody starts

Starting point is 00:04:44 to lose in their mind, right's where everybody starts losing their mind. They try to develop these camps and it's like this way is the right way to do it. You can always fall back on that type of philosophy. But in reality, my philosophy is so flexible and pliable because of the athletes that walk into my room and they're past. You got to remember, I deal with athletes. it could be there for three months or they could be there for five years. So I gotta know their training history and what they're comfortable doing.

Starting point is 00:05:12 And really, it's like neck up. Oh, you're confident with, you know, a sumo squat or a sumo deadlift. I wouldn't necessarily go out of my way to get somebody to progress on a sumo deadlift, but if that's what you've been doing and that works for you, absolutely. So that's where I don't think you can just lock yourself into like this philosophy to have that secret, like, oh, this is only what we do. And that's the reason why it's like, like I always go, I don't care about sharing what I do.

Starting point is 00:05:39 It's because of how I apply it and that's the reason that's the secret. That's the secret. Would you say that's something that separates you from a lot of your peers, or do you think that most of them think the same way? Yeah, I think they think the same thing. It's just, I'm just willing to share more, you know, and I think that maybe that's it.

Starting point is 00:05:56 Because before that, I mean, you just looked at it. I think a lot of strength coaches out there would look at a system. It's like, this is how we're actually, like basically like you're the coach of the team, like you're creating the system. Everybody has to do it this way in particular. And so then that kind of mentality went

Starting point is 00:06:13 into the strength training program. So it was almost like the community workout as opposed to the individual focus. Would you say that's like a different. So like think about where strength and conditioning came from, like especially in team sport, it came traditionally through football, right? But those are the masses,

Starting point is 00:06:29 like that's a lot of roster spots. But when you start trickling down to more, like smaller team rosters, like 10 to 15, well, you can get a lot more individualized. And I'm not saying you can't do individualization with large numbers, you definitely can. But when I look at it from the basketball perspective, I mean, look at these dudes, they're huge.

Starting point is 00:06:48 And they have different biomechanics, they have different structure types, they have different strategies on how they create their force. Yeah, you can get into the weeds on that stuff. They're literally the outliers. You know, it's interesting. I remember having a conversation with another

Starting point is 00:07:02 strength and conditioning specialists. And I said something like, and as a trainer working with everyday average people, you know, we focus a lot on correctional exercise. And oh, their movement patterns need to be, you know, move this way instead of that way, whatever. And he said, yeah, at this level, you don't do that. And I said, what do you mean?

Starting point is 00:07:18 He goes, they've been playing for so long with whatever patterns they have. If I go and try to change those, they're not gonna play nearly as well. I could not agree more at that statement. The only thing I would change is if they have, are they're symptomatic? Or they have an injury history?

Starting point is 00:07:32 Right. Maybe they're manifesting that in a way that's not working out for them. But other than that, when that's the best part about being in professional sports and watching these games nine in and nine out, as you see the best athletes in the world, just playing a sport.

Starting point is 00:07:46 They're still the best athletes in the world. They're just playing a sport. So when you watch them, like, their strategies on how they do what they do, you see, like, such individualization. And when you see those kind of movement strategies, even though everyone's doing a Euro step, how they do that Euro step,

Starting point is 00:08:03 when you watch it in real time, you're like, oh, back squats don't help everybody. You can generalize exercise anymore. Yeah, how do you, okay, so this has got to be such a hard decision for you or a very technical thing to probably tease out. So for example, you bring up a good point.

Starting point is 00:08:20 Let's say somebody has this excessive internal rotation on one side, on their left side or something, right? And therefore, they're more prone to some knee and hip issues or something. So you know that, but then that torque also makes them more explosive when they go a direction, like how do you decide? Because I've seen examples of that,

Starting point is 00:08:42 of where they will break down like some super athlete or like, and I'm thinking of a picture, picture right now who's able like throw, like just abnormally fast and they find out that's because they have this like little bit of internal rotation that's. That's in me symmetry. Yeah, a some asymmetry going on,

Starting point is 00:08:56 but it works so they're benefit when it comes to whipping a baseball. So how do you decide like, okay, this is something that I'm gonna leave alone or this is something I want to fix. Once again, it comes back to symptoms, but like, you got to reverse engineer special athletes. Like, in college, it was, you know, get everybody progressively stronger at basic exercises and their athleticism goes up.

Starting point is 00:09:19 Pretty cool, but when you're older athletes, now you're getting into your mid-20s, getting to your early 30s, well, how much more strength can you rinse out? Like, I don't know how much more strength to go get to increase performance. Now, with that being said, when you're watching them create these forces, you go back to your point, that's what makes them special. Now, if they're symptomatic, then we have to start looking at some other things. But when I see, quote-unquote, value, which we can argue if it's value or not, when you see these knees collapse in, no, that internal hip rotation they have is special.

Starting point is 00:09:53 And that's what allows them to have like these, you can go down the rabbit hole and like pressure gradients and the PRI model if you want but these These physics that go into it that allows them to be like a super ball and just pop off the ground Using not muscular strategies, but using like tenonis and a ligament Yeah, they're so elastic and you're like oh my god like you're telling me weights is gonna make that better like your craze They're literally outliers. It's funny. I had this conversation with my wife the other day because it was we were at this event and there was this person walking by and they had the legs of a six-foot tall person, but they were like five nine. Oh, and I said I bet that person performs really well in running sports. I bet you they either run distance or whatever. So we had this conversation

Starting point is 00:10:38 I talked about Michael Phelps and there was this great picture I saw years ago Michael Phelps They showed his leg length next to the world champion marathon runner. Now the marathon runner was like five, nine, Michael Phelps is like six something, but Michael Phelps' legs are as long as the guy is super short. I say his body's built to swim. This person's body's built to run.

Starting point is 00:10:59 At the level that you train people, at that level, you have special differences. Many of them genetic, so you can't necessarily apply what I would do for the average person because it's not gonna work for the, I mean, how different is that level? Because you trained at the highest level of college, how different is the level going from college to pro?

Starting point is 00:11:17 Whoof, I mean, in every aspect different, but like you still see very similar body types, it's just, do they have enough skill? And that's where that one comes in. But to go back to your, the point you were making earlier, what I find is fascinating is the higher level athlete you work with, the more you progress exercises. Really? Oh, interesting. Why is that? Because I look at it like this, if they're creating these forces, elastically, reactively, like, you can't create those same forces in a weight room. I don't care how strong you are.

Starting point is 00:11:49 Like, watching some of these athletes do 360 dunks or back flip dunks, basically, I mean, they're doing the craziest stuff in the air. These aerials, and being able to drop their shin angle, like some of these guards that make them change direction, like, their shins are hovering over the ground. And when you see those angles, you're like, and those cuts, there's no way I can replicate

Starting point is 00:12:10 that force in a weight room scenario. That's true. I can't add enough load. They'll crumble. Not to mention if you load them outside of that range of motion, get them too strong, and then you ask them to go do that explosively. Like, then you're taking them, so that's the thing I'm learning about myself and my own evolution of training was when I train to be awesome, I want to be big, strong, look the part, then I start realizing,

Starting point is 00:12:33 okay, I live in external rotation, I live in supination. So now I'm doing all the things that's the exact opposite of what you need for jumping in change of direction. And you're like, so like being cock strong might not be, you know, in this context of lifting weights might not be the best thing for high velocity high speed sports. Now with that being said, you do need to load. And that's where I go back to my point. You got to regress these exercises. And now it's like, okay, instead of taking a traditional heavy back squat, well, maybe

Starting point is 00:13:03 it's just a leg press. Maybe it's a Smith machine squat. Maybe it's like, take the learning curve out because all I want is the stress. I need to give them the stress to get a response to a listen and adaptation. I don't care what vessel it comes in. So to put it differently, you're taking the skill out of the strength training so they could just focus on the tension. Just on the mechanical load.

Starting point is 00:13:26 Yes. But what I really find fascinating, and this is where my, my evolution is, is gone to, is now I take that skill component and I take it more to sport. So now I want that in movement strategies that's outside of sport. Got it. The gray area. Now, I'm spawning that. I explained that.

Starting point is 00:13:44 Yeah. For sure. So I'll say the white area is doing the skill, like playing basketball, crossovers, jumps, you know, aerials, whatever. And then the black area is resistance training. Well, there's that gray area that you can increase movement efficiency to increase movement capacity. And that's where it's if they lack something, for example, they don't have a lot of good or they don't have enough IR to allow them to change direction as well as they could. Well, what movement strategies can I build within that? That allows them to move better and then Get it in high velocities, but it also doesn't beat them up because I can't I mean we play 82 games in the year right or

Starting point is 00:14:22 regular season 3.4 3.5 games per week. How are you going to do that without beating them up? So now you gotta hijack a lot of things, and that's where, I mean, I pull from everywhere. I pull from, I know it's controversial in my space, but it's like, France Bosch, I like a lot of his stuff. Like some of his stuff makes a lot of sense, but then I look at ballet, I look at freestyle wrestling,

Starting point is 00:14:47 I mean, I look everywhere to look at what angles do those guys create, because for them to be successful in their sport, that I need the same in mind, but I can't do what they do on the court because that takes a lot of, that taxes them. So how do those guys train? And then I try to incorporate with our athletes based off their structure and based off their strategies.

Starting point is 00:15:05 That's really interesting. I'm just racking my brain on this in terms of that high level of an athlete. Are you a little bit more focused on decelerating type movement as opposed to... Because obviously they've mastered that ability to create and generate force and torque and get into these explosive movements,

Starting point is 00:15:26 but the control of it at this level and the stability of it, is that even more of an emphasis that you have in your programming? That's such a good question. The way I look at it is you've got to give them what they don't get. So for example, they already do a ton of plyometrics. Let's remove what sport is for a second. And like, we're not tallying scores anymore. And we're not competing against one another.

Starting point is 00:15:49 Let's just look at what they actually do on the court. The whole game is plyometrics. The whole game is plyometrics. The whole game is hand combat. And the whole game is body and somebody up. And then moving in the frontal plane in a certain way, like, remove all of that and then look at the sport for what it truly is and go, probably don't need to do a lot more of that

Starting point is 00:16:08 because they already get that. So back to your point, yeah, it makes a lot of sense to do decelerating work. Now how you do that really depends on the impact that it can have on the athlete. So when I say impact, it's like high level plyometrics, like playing the sport is very impactful. Like it has a ton of impact on the joints, ligaments, tendons, et cetera.

Starting point is 00:16:26 So when I do eccentric training, like I got to think one or two things, am I doing it for high velocities? Or am I doing it for strength? And so utilizing means like high eccentric drops, like I, I got credit for this movement called a kettlebell drop lunge. So basically you start with it tall, you hold it in between your legs, then you drop down and catch it and then you can do it rhythmically. And so what that does, it doesn't beat up the joints but it's high velocity, eccentric training. Also there's rhythm and coordination. There's a lot of aspects that is sport. And so that's where

Starting point is 00:16:57 you can get a lot of eccentric load but it doesn't beat them up. Also on the same token, you can do a lot of tempos where you take, for example, like a Bulgarian split squat, tempo that, three seconds, five seconds on the way down, one second pause, explode up. Now I'm training the eccentric portion, I'm just doing it through a different means. There, I'm chasing physical adaptations.

Starting point is 00:17:18 Like I'm chasing, you know, hypertrophy, you, things that you see in bodybuilding. So. Now I've seen a bit of a trend in strength training in terms of like the platforms and the different angles in being able to kind of place the ankles a little more in, you know, supinated or a different type of a position, pronatation where you're trying

Starting point is 00:17:42 to create and control that kind of force. Now explain to me like how, is that something that you're incorporating now? I've seen this in a few different modalities out there for athletes. Yeah, I think we're the thought process in that. So like Polish boxes, for example, for the audience, the Polish box is really simple.

Starting point is 00:18:02 It's a plyo box, except they have slants. So in other words, it makes like a roof like a house, or it makes like a ditch. So it goes basically a triangle or a reverse triangle. And then they have different grades that allows certain responses. So what I like doing with them is doing low level plyometrics or extensive base plyometrics,

Starting point is 00:18:22 where you're jumping on this ramp, but your feet are going into supination, and then doing the exact same thing, jumping straight up and down, even though we're jumping straight up and down, my feet are feeling supination and pronation, so the same things that I get in change of direction. The one thing that you see in change of direction drills, who does change of direction drills like extensively? What type of athlete? Yeah, or I'm just saying like, direction drills like extensively? What type of athlete?

Starting point is 00:18:45 Yeah, or I'm just saying like, like who trains that extensively? That means like you'd be going back and forth cutting for a long period of time. Most of the time you see change a direction in this. Tenus is, yeah, you see that in the sport, but that's like a high level. It's kind of basketball. You don't see that in normal person.

Starting point is 00:18:59 Exactly. When you see an in training, then you're like, oh, no one just goes back and forth and does a ton of change of direction. They don't set and reps that necessarily. When I think, well, how is their training, their foot and ankle to handle change of direction, they don't even build a general base for it. They just rely on the sport to make that happen.

Starting point is 00:19:17 How do I get long? The best way to look at is like GPP for the lower leg for change of direction. How do you get that? And a great way of doing it is just jumping on plioboxes where you have these ramps and it forces your foot to have supination and pronation aspects. Speaking of which, this was very interesting. I'm not a huge basketball fan,

Starting point is 00:19:37 but I'm a huge fan of athletic training and I was, I don't know, maybe a few months ago we were all watching basketball on TV and I noticed something and only because I don't normally watch it and I said't know, there's maybe a few months ago, we were all watching basketball on TV and I noticed something and only because I don't normally watch it and I said, man, nobody's wearing high tops like they used to back in the day, everybody's got like these mid tops or low tops, that seems like a big change.

Starting point is 00:19:55 Because when I was a kid, everybody wore high tops. Why did that change? Now, my guess was you just have more movement and mobility and it probably, although it's my sound counter, probably reduced injury because you're not so limited. But am I right? What was the deal? My understanding is it started with Kobe.

Starting point is 00:20:11 I think Kobe was the first one to... That's a prevailing theory that I've heard. Oh, is it? Yeah, his injury, after that, he started the whole trend of the lower, lower. Of the lower, yeah. So I don't know how true it is, but he is one of the first that I've ever seen go low top

Starting point is 00:20:25 and like, and everybody, like everybody jumped on that train because they're like, oh, it's Kobe's in there cool. But from my understanding what went into that was his experience as a soccer player. And when you watch soccer, there's no high tops in soccer. Right. What, like, to me, like I thought that was fascinating because you got spikes.

Starting point is 00:20:42 Yeah, you're going to have to even hold it to direction. With a, with a ball, you got to take it into the surface. Yeah, you're going to have to even hold it harder. Yeah, with a ball. You're on one way. You got the thing. Dig into the surface. Yeah, two of those. I was like, those are the guys that are going to jacked up the most. And then you watch DBs, running back,

Starting point is 00:20:54 or not running back, but like DBs and wide receivers, and those are skill sport or skill positions. I never thought. They wear low tops as well. Yeah. So when you think about it, it just makes a lot of sense.

Starting point is 00:21:02 I think it was just shoe makers at the time, trends, like just things that just at that point made sense, but really wasn't validated. And that's the thing that I was talking about earlier. It's like, if you step outside the box, sometimes, I mean, it's high risk, high reward, but sometimes I could fall on face, too. Speaking of evolution, the evolution of strength training in basketball, I find absolutely fascinating.

Starting point is 00:21:27 I think that's probably one of the last sports to really adopt. I mean, of course, they all use it now, but it was probably one of the last sports to really adopt strength training, football being the first. When they first adopted it versus now, what do the evolutions of strength training look like? And how's the athletes changed?

Starting point is 00:21:42 So I remember them, if I want to say in the 90s or 2000, they were big, they were trying to get them real big, and now maybe they're much more developed. What's the deal with the evolution of the string training? Man, I remember, so I played college basketball, the lowest level of college basketball, so that was 2005 to nine.

Starting point is 00:21:58 And so even that small revolution from then, it was almost like don't train in season because it's gonna mess up your shot. That was the one that I thought was like, Jesus Christ. And now I look back on, I'm like, that's probably the one of the most ridiculous things that you can ever say.

Starting point is 00:22:13 But at the same time, it also makes a lot of sense because what was adopted? It was football training principles. Yeah. They were adopted in the basketball. So if you go and do a heavy bench press session and then you go shoot immediately after, I agree. That is not good.

Starting point is 00:22:28 Yeah. That is not good at all. Changes your timing. They're 100%. Like that feel, like there's nothing like the feel. And that's when you see like the best basketball players when they shoot the ball. There's something that it's just so special.

Starting point is 00:22:40 It's the way it comes off the fingertips. I mean, I can still, I will shoot for the next 10 years and I still came and come close to that kind of touch. And it's just something, when you see that and you go, oh, string training, like types of string training, it actually makes a lot of sense. And so anyways, back to the evolution.

Starting point is 00:22:59 So it was basically don't train in season, just only maybe do it off season, but it was that, it's like, let's get these refrigerators. Let's try to make the biggest possible athlete that we possibly can, but the sport was that. Like the 90s was beating and banging down low, right? And now it's so much more finesse. So it's not only, and this is the part that we can't

Starting point is 00:23:19 compartmentalize training, it's also style of play. You have a good point. Think about football back. I mean, there's still like mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, mean, I early in my career where they actually wanted more mobile linemen. So now that you have more mobile linemen, you got to change the way you train. I think that's what happened in basketball. The style of the play changed, the need. 100%. I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're, look at happening in wide receivers in the NFL. I mean, the part of why we see like the Tireeaks and these guys that are so fast now is they can be petite and small and quickly like that. You play football on the A.B. successful. Yeah, you play football in the 80s.

Starting point is 00:24:06 You can jacked up if you're that little. So the game has changed too. I mean, when you see the rules changed, like the rules now, you know, you can't touch certain. You can't protect it. Well, then what wins speed? Yeah. And so that's where it's like, ah, maybe I'll put more eggs

Starting point is 00:24:19 in that basket, supposed to be as physical. And so that's when you see now the three point shot is now like basically from half court. It's like that's when you see now the three point shot is now like basically from half court. It's like that's why some of these guys can get away with it at a super high level where speed really wins. I mean, don't be wrong. There's all sorts of tactics that go into it and the development and the structure or the DNA of your team, I should say. But it's really fascinating to see what really wins. It's fast pace or physicality. It's always fun to see when those two teams match up. I love to hear some some personal experience for you. I mean, you were already coaching at a high

Starting point is 00:24:50 level at Stanford. Then you go to the NBA. It would have been some highlights and moments like watching the game and watching these these super athletes. Like, would have been some cool highlights for you. I mean, the finals was special. Yeah. I guess it was probably, and obviously we lost, but the coolest thing was watching them celebrate. And I know that sounds really weird. And it's like, untraditional for us to like like, but when I watched it, it was like, dude, this is the highest level of achievement. We were just on the other side of it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:21 But I'm like, dude, I'm still in this building. And I'm like, from Redneckville, you know, USA. And I get to just stand here and watch this confetti job. Now, obviously, I would love to see our colors drop. But just even being in that moment, it's like, we're the last two teams. And this was that was achievable. It's there. It was so special. Well, also, what is it like? Because unfortunately, I have never been able to experience playing for being a part of a team that made a championship run. Talk about the culture of it because I mean, I even not ever experiencing that, you know when you have this dynamic, like, could you know early in the season? I mean, could you feel the energy? No. No. No. It's the best part. Really.

Starting point is 00:26:02 It's the best part. I've been a part of three different championship teams. And what's interesting is everyone I can look back on, it was like, oh, we actually did it. Wow, really? You don't know it while you're in it. I don't think. I don't think you know it when you're in it. I think you're just, this is what we do. And it just so happens to go our way. I really think like, don't even run. There's that mentality, yeah, we're built for this. We're built different. I get that.

Starting point is 00:26:29 There's that facade. There's that confidence you have to externally show. And yeah, we knew this was happening. Well, sure. But the reality is, can everybody pinpoint that moment where we're like, oh, it's here. I mean, you can fascinate some stories, but reality. I mean, we were coming off the bubble,

Starting point is 00:26:49 the bubble's eight and a whole very successful. That was our own little championship. But we're like, hey, we belong. That didn't necessarily go, we belong in the finals. Like, that's a big difference. You win eight games in a row, great. But like, going to the finals the next year, that's a big leap.

Starting point is 00:27:04 And that was, I mean, our first round was extremely tough. But I would say if I had to like pinpoint like a fantasy moment to say, hey, we can do this thing. Like we're doing it was after the first round win. After the first round win, that was the first time the organization's been in the playoffs for 12 years after. From me, who'd you play in the first round?

Starting point is 00:27:24 Like Lakers. Oh, okay. So of course. So that was where, you know, that was a team that was projected to do it all. Of course. So, yeah. After we did that one, we're like, oh, guys,

Starting point is 00:27:33 like, I'm not saying like, we arrived, but it was like, no, we're here. Like, we can do this. Well, let's talk about the bubble, training the bubble. What did anything change? Or was it just business as usual? Oh, no, everything changed.

Starting point is 00:27:44 Like, it was because of the environment. So we were under extreme constraints. I mean, obviously with the testing, everybody's in their own hotel rooms. I mean, when we first got there, we had to quarantine in our hotel for like three days straight. I think it was something like that. So you couldn't bring family, everybody? Oh, but then they had to also quarantine. Oh no.

Starting point is 00:28:01 So by yourself. By yourself. Now, I think the finals, I think they're allowed to bring family but they still had to quarantine just like how we quarantined, you know, so But you know to finish off the regular season. I mean we had to be there three days isolated in your room and That was bananas, but like I'm sending guys workouts via FaceTime, you know or text and then I'll FaceTime on like Form check or whatever you want to call it. And it was wild times. And so when we finally got released, you know, I felt like coming out into the public,

Starting point is 00:28:29 we finally got released to do things together. We were slotted times because we all had to share facilities. So I don't remember how many teams, maybe like 19 teams were in it or something like that. So we had only so many facilities to have practice, have weight room access. And so everyone was slaughtered. I believe it was anywhere between two and a half to three hours. And then you had to get up out of there. And so like, where are you going to train? And so what do you got to do? So in most scenario, you can do a lot of personal training. You do one-on-one training. But because of that constraint, what we decided to do as a team was, you know what, we're going to do a team lift.

Starting point is 00:29:05 And that was where it was like college days. That got me, that's my wheelhouse. So running that whole program, like a college program, that was the most fun. If I can pinpoint like one special moment in my career, like he said, that, actually that was looking back on that. It was dope because you got the best athletes in the world, and it's like marching to the same beat. And we're on the weight room, and it's like trap or deadlift day and everybody's treating it. Like it's a max day.

Starting point is 00:29:29 Coaches in there all yelling and it's like a football environment. We're like, yeah, like this is in the NBA, like this ain't college football. It was it was cool. And then it just so happened to have success. So you do not think that some of that blood into the next season as far as like that camaraderie and everything that you probably built during that some of that blood into the next season as far as that camaraderie and everything that you probably built during that time? You say? How we trained actually transitioned into that.

Starting point is 00:29:50 And so what we trained before that, I didn't even know at the NBA, it was like I was just winging it. I mean, we're all winging it to a certain degree, but especially during that first half of the season before the pandemic hit, I was like, I think we're gonna train now. Do you wanna lift today? I didn't really know how to,

Starting point is 00:30:05 because I'm used to saying, I'm, this is what we got, we'll be here to eight, but at that level, it doesn't really work that way. It's your coworker, you don't talk to your coworker that way. You know, your student. Yeah, it's not a full-time. Did you get a lesson in that? Was there, you're, no.

Starting point is 00:30:21 No, I got, I came in, I was like, you know what, I know what, I feel the vibe, like, just be cool. Be cool. And then the moments that you gotta put your foot down, just be like, what are we doing? Talk to him as your boy, and you're like, I'm disappointed in you. Not like, get out of my space, you can't pull that stuff.

Starting point is 00:30:42 I mean, you could. I mean, I think if you're close enough, there's times where I'm close enough for the player where I can be- Get into old cool stuff. Because you know them. Yeah, because we're cool. And they know that I have the best interest form.

Starting point is 00:30:53 If it's not, then it looks like it's self-interest. And at the end of the day, these guys get paid, what they get paid, and I get paid what I get paid. So there's controversy. Who's going to kick rocks first? Right, right. I'm not saying. Now, you mentioned off-air that knowing what you know now, So there's controversy who's going to kick rocks first So now you you mentioned off air that you know knowing what you know now you have this this great experience the High-level college now MBA now now you say if you were to go back and do college you do it differently

Starting point is 00:31:20 Yeah, I also I would do it so different So one thing that we did in college, specifically at Stanford that I really enjoyed was we implemented this model called microdosing. Yeah. And so microdosing performance, I think we talked about it. I remember I was going to bring that up. I'm like, you're doing revolutionary stuff at Stanford. So how would you like change all that? It was already. So next level. Well, the good thing is I got to bring that to the professional environment. And so now it was like a comparison. It wasn't not an intentional comparison, but the difference is I would do multiple sessions in a day.

Starting point is 00:31:50 That's what I would do very different. So explain microdosing to the audience. For sure. Listen to that first episode. Great point. So microdosing and a team sport setting, and in season training, you generally see teams lift one to two times a week.

Starting point is 00:32:05 The problem with that is, let's say somebody misses a lift, then that's 50% of your training gone. 50 to 100% of your training gone for that seven-day period, which is a huge problem, or you got to make it up. Now, if we're just saying, here's a good example, in conference play, you play Thursday and Saturday. If I miss a lift, well, I can't make up that lift, especially the exact same type of lift

Starting point is 00:32:27 to a listen to adaptation, because what that's gonna do is gonna put me in the hole, and now I can't have optimal competition, or be ready for competition. So then you're now negating and like doing like a half-ass job of or training stimulus, just to get the lift in. So that was the problem I had. I was like, you know what,

Starting point is 00:32:45 there's not enough opportunity because we try to condense this whole session. And so these sessions in season would look anywhere in 2045 minutes to an hour long. And so when you think about it, you probably surf the force velocity spectrum. So you start with your warm up, your speed or power work, your strength work,

Starting point is 00:33:01 and then your accessory work. That's a typical lift. Well, if you layer all these different types of stressors into one lift, yes, you could get a positive adaptation, but with that positive adaptation also is also going to have other aspects like delayed onset muscle soreness. So if we have some of these, you know, unwanted symptoms, then that's going to affect player development. That's going to affect skill development. That's going to affect practice. That's going to affect competition. So what I thought about was, well, instead of doing these like mega-dose sessions,

Starting point is 00:33:36 like an off-season workout, length, let's do a micro session. So now let's split these lifts into anywhere between 15 to 25 minute sessions. And then instead of doing all of those stressors in one lift, I'm gonna separate every one of those stressors. And what I found out is I can train not only more often but more intense. Because think about it, if you went to the gym and all you had was cleansed, all right, you got 20 minutes to get cleansed in. You could get as heavy as you possibly could and you could fail. Mm-hmm. You're probably not going to feel the next day. Mm-hmm. So you're like,

Starting point is 00:34:10 oh, but where did it all come from? Yeah, because there's that cumulative stress. It's not just the issue stress, right? It's the cumulative over time being go. I experienced this myself. I did I did these all day workouts where I'd lift one hour for 20 minutes. Then I wouldn't work out for two hours and I'd do it again 20 minutes. I'd do this all day long when I looked at the total volume, like this is way more than I whatever do in one workout, but it didn't feel like it. A thousand percent.

Starting point is 00:34:33 And where did that all come from? Well, like Olympic lifters, the train multiple times a day. That's what I trained. And so I found the Norwegian project, are you guys familiar with that? No. So this was the Norwegian powerlifting team, I believe. They took on this Olympic

Starting point is 00:34:48 lifting coach. I forgot where he was from though, somewhere Eastern Black. And anyways, he's an Olympic lifting coach comes over to the Norwegian powerlifting team and introduced Olympic lifting training frequencies to the powerlifting. Now, this is already an elite level powerlifting group. All they did was make more sessions. They just, they doubled their training frequency within a week. So instead of doing three or four lifts, they did eight to nine lifts. And they corrected for volume and all that stuff. It was the same load, same workload. So in other words, like, yes, yes, they corrected the volume, but they're just in these microssessions.

Starting point is 00:35:25 Right, right, right. And then all of a sudden, boom, PRs, PRs, PRs, PRs. And you're sitting there like, that makes a lot of sense. I'm experiencing this right now. We just created a program that we're launching next month. And I basically have taken the three big workouts that I used to do, and I've split it up over like six days in these 20, 25 minutes and experiencing incredible results. And I feel and I feel better than I ever felt. My joints feel better. I'm recovering faster. I feel just as strong. The results are as good or better. It's amazing. I think for strength training intensity tends to be overused or abused in

Starting point is 00:36:01 frequency. And this way tends to not get looked at. And I think if you look at frequencies this way, you'd be amazed at how your body tends to react and respond. How it happened to Stanford was really simple. Like, we come in, we're, before we got to Stanford, we're at the University of Alabama Birmingham and like, you know, it's blue collar and, you know, we had success with that.

Starting point is 00:36:21 So we're trying to bring this blue collar mentality into Stanford, which is very white color. And we're like, well, lifting every day is pretty tough. Like, it's like, that's hard. You know, let's do that. And so how I pinned it off was, let's make it a part of practice. So lifting and practice are not two separate events.

Starting point is 00:36:39 And it was also another aspect was when you look at stress holistically, if you have separate sessions throughout the day, well, logistically, I mean, that's 15 to 20 minutes of commute time. Yeah. And now, like, we're wasting their day because they have to more commute. Sure. So our idea was like, instead of doing like that, same rudimentary, like, everybody on the line, let's do this five to 10 minute warm up and everybody's doing the song and dance

Starting point is 00:37:01 before we go into our practice, let's make it a strength warm up or a power warm up. Oh, interesting. And so now it's a weight room session. So our warm up is actually done in the weight room. Now we contrasted some sprinting and we did some specialized things where we go from a squat to a jump or a trap or deadlift into a sprint, you know, whatever. But they got to experience those high velocities

Starting point is 00:37:22 and change the direction to prepare them for sport. But then we, so we microdose them. So that's where we trained on game day and that was weirdly like revolutionary in college basketball at the time, which I'm like, I don't think it's that big of a deal, but it caught a lot of credit. And so then taking that now to professional sports. So what I did there was we only trained one time a day in college What we do in professional sports is we train anywhere between two to three times a day Wow, and I know that sounds wild. It really does But when you do in these micro sessions, it makes a ton of sense So let's just take a game day for example most teams have what they call shoot around so that's you know around

Starting point is 00:38:01 10 o'clock 11 o'clock during the day. They go to the arena, get shots up, maybe do some tactical stuff where they're looking over the thing that they're about to do to the team that night. And so that's an opportunity, pre-repost that. And then you have the game, pre-repost that. So you have four opportunities to get lifts in. And so if we break them up into these micro-sessions, then for instance, you can do accessories in the morning, wake up, then you do your two-nup, or your turbo light, we're trying to get fast

Starting point is 00:38:31 before the game, potentiation, and then post-game, in-engine. This is where we're gonna work on tensile strength, post-game. Did you get any flex? So there was a viral video, you were in it. Oh, God. There was a viral video that you were in. That was so bad. Oh, you were in it. Oh, God. There was a viral video that you were in.

Starting point is 00:38:45 That was so bad. Oh, you were in. And I was like, oh, shit, there's my boy right there. And I think I even made TV everything of you training with the guys. I think after one of the, was it one of the playoff games? No, I was after a season game. It was after the Bay Area team. Oh, that's why I remember it.

Starting point is 00:39:02 I remember it. It was after that win. So tell me, tell me first of all, explain to the audience what that was and what happened. And then I didn't know if there, if you got any backlash from it or anything. Yeah, it was, it was catch 22. It was good and bad. Okay, the good part was it's exposing the rest of the world that we, that, you know, basketball players lift weights and like we we

Starting point is 00:39:26 Take care of our bodies and this is how we take care of our bodies We don't do it by doing passive modalities We're not just sitting there and getting massage treatments and getting these spa like you know sessions No, we we work like we do our we do what we can to build up our bodies and the best time to do that is technically post game The reason why I bring that up is Going back to the example where you play three to four times a week and the best time to do that is technically post game. The reason why I bring that up is going back to the example where you'd play three to four times a week, well, if you lift heavy

Starting point is 00:39:51 to have an adaptation on any of the other days, so the rest days, well, holistically, stress is still really high. So they never get to recover. So the idea behind microdosing truly is make your high days stupid high. And so that your low days are ridiculously low and so that you can recover.

Starting point is 00:40:12 And that's the idea behind it is, once you build up into this or once you adapt, then at the end of season you're setting PRs. Like you're the strongest at the end of season. That's the whole point of this thing. Yeah, a true. I mean, we had guys that were being able to express force on our force plates and we have data to support it, that they're setting lifetime PRs going into the playoffs. Wow. That's so counter. Yeah. Yes. And he because the old school mentality is before the season. Yeah, just people for season and just make sure they don't get hurt. It's so funny how you look at it

Starting point is 00:40:44 and you're like, when does people get hurt? They get hurt in the beginning of season, probably because there's such a cute response to all the things they've been doing and at the end of season. What do you think happened? Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So like you peak early, all right? We're you've done a lot of training up into that point then you add on high-volume practices and then you add on games Boom, sun happens. Yep, and then you look you look at the indices and you de-train because you're not training at intensities that you were training, so you're actually getting less of an at-

Starting point is 00:41:13 What an interesting perspective on that. And so counter. So let's talk, so here's something that I noticed with these all day. Wait, I wanted to hear the controversy. Oh, I did. Oh, yeah. Yeah, here's the shit, bro.

Starting point is 00:41:24 You let it go. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Oh, yeah. You're the shit, bro. You let it go. Wait, what's all the positive? So what we were doing in that session, where we're doing oscillating isometrics. So what that is, is you go to the bottom range, and we're just pulsing at the bottom. It's really, really good for tendon health. Okay.

Starting point is 00:41:38 So then, every, like, the internet personal trainers are like, oh my God, they're not even going full depth. They're not even doing full range of motion. And I'm like out of all the lifts. Like that's the one, you know. Being out great looking pull-ups. So I was pumped about that. I was like, yeah, we do that.

Starting point is 00:41:55 But the pulsing ISOs got so much controversy. And I'm like, oh my God. Who's this jazzrousite stuff? The facts, you know, the problem is, you see me doing it right beside a guy, like showing him, and it was like, oh look, he doesn't know what he's talking about, and I'm like, word. All right.

Starting point is 00:42:11 I think it's important for trainers and coaches to know that when you start at, when you're training the average person, there's, it's very different at what you look at. It's very different how you train the person. The higher the level, the more specific and specialized, and when you're training at the highest, highest level, it's gonna look nothing like you would train the average person. Even if you're training a fit average person,

Starting point is 00:42:39 it's gonna look nothing like it. And this took me 10 years to really learn as a trainer, because I would be critical too. What is that? It's not a full squad or why aren't they doing for in 10 years in my career? I was like, Oh, that's not the same at all. It's very different. It's very specific. I had the exact same when I was in college. And I got asked on a lot of podcasts when I was working in those ranks. Would you ever do NBA? I'm like, no, they don't train. I had the same mentality. I'm like, no, they don't train. Like, I had the same mentality.

Starting point is 00:43:05 I'm like, nah, man, I wouldn't do NBA and look at my ass now. I just try to figure it out. So I have a question for you because I can't quite figure out why this happens. I'm pretty sure you know the answer to this. But when I would do those all day workouts, you know, and this is how I'll break it down. I do like three exercises, two or three sets each bench, you know, I don't know, bench deadlift, overhead press, or something like that.

Starting point is 00:43:27 And I do a couple sets at 9am, then again at 11am, then again at 1pm. And I noticed in the middle of that whole thing, cause I'd finished like 6pm, by the third or fourth session, I felt stronger than I did at the beginning. Even though I should be fatigued, even though I've just done two or three micro workouts

Starting point is 00:43:43 earlier, I noticed I got stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger. And then fatigue would set in the last two or three I started to get weaker. Is that like a potentiation thing that's going on? Is my CNS ramping up? Like what's happening? I think there's multiple things going on and I like to pair it with another example. So when you talk to any basketball player and you ask them when they got their first dunk, they would always say, yeah, after pickup.

Starting point is 00:44:05 And you're like, ah, that makes a lot of sense, actually, because there's this aspect when we create so much tension to elicit a certain movement pattern rather, it's slow, like a heavy deadlift or fast, like a sprint or a jump. There's this aspect of, or this sweet spot where you turn on the right muscles and turn off the right muscles. And there's this coordination to it. And so I think when you get into your sets, you actually start getting more and more coordinated throughout the day. The efficiency is just exactly. So that's the whole expression of force is, is efficiency. And so don't get me wrong. There's probably opportunities where guys like have their best jump in the beginning

Starting point is 00:44:47 Well for sure, but there's like a lot of other things that could be involved in that as well But most basketball players. I mean, I'm telling I've asked this question That you just made me think back to the very first time I ever dunked was after a you know two hours of a pickup game There you go, and you just created so much efficiency and so like that's fatigue is actually like a good you go and you just created so much efficiency. And so like when fatigue is actually like a good indicator of efficiency. And so that's where I think a lot of people look at fatigue as a bad thing.

Starting point is 00:45:10 I look fatigue is a great thing because you look at one or two things like there's movement competency or there's movement inefficiency. And so that's where it's like, oh, do you truly master it? Can you still express these outputs even though you're under fatigue? Because that's how you organize. And when you see in sport, that's when you're like,

Starting point is 00:45:27 oh, that's where you see crazy fourth quarter performances. Sometimes you see great first quarter performances, but you know. It's like your body is fine tuning and becoming more organized and exciting. It's interesting. I was, there was this guy, there was this old show. I think it was on Discovery Channel

Starting point is 00:45:42 where they would attach sensors to athletes and having performed certain foot-flat feet. I think it was a Discovery Channel where they would attach sensors to athletes and having performed certain work-led feet. I think it was. And they had Randy Couture on there, I don't know if you guys know who he is, but MMA, if I really interviewed the guy from that show. Yeah, and he, Randy Couture, he got a, like this medicine ball type thing

Starting point is 00:45:58 with all these sensors attached to his body and the medicine ball registering force and he squeezed it like in a headlock and he compared him to the average person. And they found that his muscles were activating and coordinating very differently. So he was able to squeeze harder and longer than somebody who was actually bigger than he was, but it's because of the efficiency his body was it just through training and practice and 100%.

Starting point is 00:46:18 And that's really what it all boils down to. Well, I'm so glad you brought up that point or that specific story because I think the most important part of microdosing is how it doesn't compete with other Stressers. When we look at stressors holistically, let's look at, okay, if I'm developing skill, well, that's motor learning. Yeah. I mean, motor learning exists in lifting as well, but let's just compartmentalize it for a second. So motor learning, skill development. Then we look at physical training, we're getting the muscles bigger, faster, stronger. And then we look at the sport itself,

Starting point is 00:46:51 and that's the reactive component and the actualization of everything. Well, the problem is, if physical training has these negative effects in these mega-doseages, well, how do you think that's going to affect motor learning and skill development? So that's the thing I don't want to do. I want to increase their physical capacity, but I cannot do it to the point where it sacrifices

Starting point is 00:47:14 skill development and competition. All three of these areas have to coordinate together and be able to be in sync. So that's where if you take certain aspects, like going back to the example, speed and power, heavy lift, or strength, and then accessory work, if you just compartmentalize those and you organize it along with their skill development, then you'll never compete against those stressors. So really the benefit, the value, the effectiveness of microdosing training is less about what it's doing and more about what it's not doing.

Starting point is 00:47:47 Exactly. Exactly. So, you're not competing as much. Forcing the body to adapt or to choose where it's going to adapt and to choose where it's going to move its resources. And here's the key with this. And I think a lot of people need to realize this is when you're equating total volume, total work,

Starting point is 00:48:05 it's pretty similar if you have two long workouts versus four small ones or five or six small ones, the difference is in what you're talking about, because you're doing those frequent kind of signaling with smaller sessions, you're not doing maybe as much damage, not fatiguing the body as much and allowing the person to train with less injury, less pain, less all that stuff.

Starting point is 00:48:23 I mean, it's really just not messing with what they do. And I think we get away from that sometimes because it's about what we do. Like strength conditioning coaches, I get a bigger, faster, stronger. Yeah. Okay. But if they're not a better basketball player, then none of it happens. It doesn't matter. And that's what I had to, if I could go back to college, I would do different.

Starting point is 00:48:40 Now at the same time, they're 17 to 21 year olds, they adapt to anything. So it really doesn't matter. But I would be a lot more, more like scalpel than I would do different now at the same time. There's 17 to 21 year olds. They adapt to anything. So it really doesn't matter. But I would be a lot more like scalpel than I would like hammer. I got wasn't college. So would you have added more workouts then to your college group? And then I would take that even just out of my own curiosity from the high school level because I'm working with athletes there.

Starting point is 00:49:02 Specifically just in terms of creating these microdosing workouts, but then also moving that same method in season and keeping and maintaining that alongside the stress of them, the volume of their actual sport itself, that would have been something you would have changed. Yeah, I would have done, back to the Stanford example, the last thing I'm going to do is have them come in multiple times a day. I would lift pre and post practice. Pre-practice is more speed, like motor coordination, like things that they're doing.

Starting point is 00:49:35 Turn things on. Turn things on and then like, I mean, like, you're going, like, this is a, if it's a sprint workout, like, it's a sprint workout, if it's to jump higher, I mean, we're doing like, high, high plyometrics. Because what's the worst thing after that? Practice, like you're not gonna experience anything as harsh. Now there's some reactive components that could get you close,

Starting point is 00:49:54 but regardless, and then post practice, as long as practice is done well. And that's traditional strength training. Then traditional strength training. Wow. Now what about isometrics? You mentioned the pulsing in that video. Where does isometrics, so isometrics,

Starting point is 00:50:07 I feel like is one of the most underutilized training methodologies and just general fitness. And the study's on them, it's pretty remarkable. It doesn't damage the body, the injury risk is really low, activates lots of muscle fibers. I mean, you can apply isometrics to anybody, almost anybody, regardless of fitness level. So, I would imagine that this is something that you utilized with your athletes as well.

Starting point is 00:50:27 It is the bees knees in sports performance right now. Like, oh really everybody's starting to look at it. Oh man, it's like, it's an abundance. Like, there's, I mean, there's courses coming out left and right about how you use the highest level. It makes us feel good. And then they make you feel good a little bit. It is.

Starting point is 00:50:44 A little bit. Really a diocese. And then they make you feel good a little bit, dude. So it is. It's a little bit really a diase. It's really a diase. They are the bees knees right now. And for great reason. I mean, you look at, you guys from the FRC, the FJM, and the conditioning, their pales and rails is driven from 80s research. Research that was done in the 80s.

Starting point is 00:51:02 And then I was like, oh, I didn't always keep looking at that and just apply in different ways you look at pales and rails and you're like that's just an IMTP or an overcoming ISO and a yielding ISO so why can't we apply those same principles globally or even more specific So I like using isometrics and the frontal plane I know a lot of people like I like I like overcoming ISOs the Potentiary like Jesus like you overcomecoming, so what I mean by that. So you mean driving against the moveable objects? In moveable objects, correct. And so that's going to, I mean, there's no more motor unit

Starting point is 00:51:33 recruitment in a single lift than a failed deadlift. Yeah. And what is a failed deadlift? An isometric. So there's your answer. If you want to create the most amount of force and overcoming ISO, now how we do it is through more of like a more favorable position.

Starting point is 00:51:50 So it's like a quarter squat position. That's when I'm in my strongest. I wouldn't do it from the bottom unless I'm trying to build a lift, which... Like a power lifter whose bottom is weakest. Not a basketball player. Exactly, not a basketball player, like who cares, right? He's never getting in a deep squat, so it doesn't matter.

Starting point is 00:52:05 For sure. Now what I would do, if they are symptomatic, like say like, patellar tendonitis on a knee, then you could get them in those ranges, but you're doing it for a health spectrum. So that's when I use R.I. utilize yielding isometric, which means for example, you start at the top of a squat or a lunge and then you drop into a mid stance or to a full lunge, because you're yielding that force.

Starting point is 00:52:25 So that's where you can utilize heavy resistance training for that. And once again, going back to the same example, regress the exercise. It doesn't have to be a complicated exercise. It could even be a machine. It's just what is the vessel doesn't matter. It's the stress that we're trying to drive. And if it's heavy, well, let's not make it more complicated, especially if you don't know the athletes training history or you don't have a long time with that athlete, get that through motor skill, like motor learning, like get that through skill development,

Starting point is 00:52:55 get that through like sprinting and jumping and change direction, don't get that in the weight room. Yeah. Okay, so with isometrics, especially with the, where you're overcoming, right? So you're pushing against an movable object or squatting against an movable object. For the average person, it sounds like the best time to do something like that would be, if you're going to do traditional string training workout, 45-minute hour workout, it would

Starting point is 00:53:16 be 10 minutes at the beginning, get everything turned on, then get into your workout. Does that make sense? Yeah, I'd say after you're pretty loose and you feel good, that's when you can start ramping it up. I would never start the session, or even when I'm loose, I wouldn't start with a 100% effort rip into a rack. You can build at 80, 90 and then actually start hitting your work sets. But what I really like doing is I like contrasting that work. I like going against an immovable object and then getting that tension is for an analogy standpoint, get the tension out of my body.

Starting point is 00:53:45 Then I go do something rhythmic and coordinated after, for example, like shadow boxing is not a bad example, but like low level plios or like box jumps or death drop jumps, something where it's and involves some rhythm and coordination. So I can develop all this tension and I'll go use that tension. Interesting. So I like having both of those aspects.

Starting point is 00:54:06 I rarely train one without the other. Interesting. So you could do like a high tension in the beginning after you're warmed up and loose and then do something like ice skaters or 100%. So that's a great example of the change of direction. Well, I do an overcoming eye so into a wall, except one of my sides is facing it. And then I lean into it and I'm only pushing with my back leg.

Starting point is 00:54:27 So now it's like an ice skater jump, but I'm just creating it with a wall and I'm holding that position. Now I'm specifically training the angles. Angles is what wins. Angles is what performance truly is. When you see shin angles low to the ground, you see speed. You see that linear sprinting and you see and change the direction. So I want to train them in those angles and what's the safest way to get them down there,

Starting point is 00:54:51 but also have a shit ton of load overcoming isometric. Yeah. And for the listener who's trying to understand this, the reason why angles are so important is, if you're generating, I'm just going to use a number of hundred pounds worth of force, but your angle is not perfect, you're going to lose, there's a leak in that energy. That hundred pounds can't be applied directly because it's like me pushing against the wall, but I'm pushing from under the wall, right? I'm not going to push it directly, I'm not able to create the angle that gives me the direct force.

Starting point is 00:55:20 It's also physics involved, right? The greater the angle and the greater the strength you could have in that angle the greater Tension that's what you can create on the field or on the court, right? That's so well I just reverse engineer from the best in the world right 100 meter sprinters are the fastest people in the world Yep, when you watch them take off how close are their shins to the ground in those first three steps That is the difference between good starters and elite starters look at those shin angles if it looks almost parallel To the ground,

Starting point is 00:55:45 it's organized falling. Like your best sprint, your best sprint is catching yourself on it. And so great track coaches, they actually encourage falling in their acceleration drills. Because that's essentially the angle you want to be able to eventually create, because that's all it is. It's just organized falling. Yeah, our mutual friend Paul Favrentz does great videos on like where he breaks down the angles and stuff like that. You've seen the most of the lead athletes have that ability to like, it's like, not linear is one thing, but back to the point you're bringing, change the direction.

Starting point is 00:56:20 When you see like bilateral and then knees are in and they're just shimming left and right, but their shins are about to touch the ground. You're like, how do you guard that? I'm like, I'm just, we're all linked. I just gotta use a link. I hope I got a seven foot wingspan because. I'm gonna do a short, 100 for the foul. You're all hard to hit.

Starting point is 00:56:37 Foul hard. So you know, one of the biggest travesties in the strength sports, and we can even include, I guess muscle building in that is this camps. Like, well, bodybuilder's training like this, power lift is training like this, Olympic lift for training legs, oh, and we can even include, I guess, muscle building in that is this camps. Like, well, bodybuilders training like this, power lifts are training like this, Olympic lift for training, legs, oh, I use kettlebells or I use,

Starting point is 00:56:50 and you, you know, I don't know if we said this all fair, but you said, you know, I try to take from everything and apply it. And this is for professional sports. I think this applies to the average person as well, who just wants to build an aesthetic physique, you know, that they don't take principles from other strength sports,

Starting point is 00:57:04 or even athletes in those sports, like bodybuilders. I think bodybuilders can learn a lot from Olympic lifters, maybe not the Olympic lifts, but maybe the micro-dosing in the field. Well, you're driving towards something I wanted to ask, Corey, actually, and if you can, I'd like you to take yourself out of your MBA and basketball mind and actually kind of of think like we have to think

Starting point is 00:57:26 as like general pop, right? And what are some things that you've learned during your training career that you now would apply to the average person who's just trying to get fit, build muscle? Like how would you think like programming differently today with all your knowledge and experience? What would you omit?

Starting point is 00:57:42 Well, like back to South's point, like I think what's like fascinating is truly stealing from all these other disciplines. So for example, if I want massive quads, Olympic lifters have fucking quads. Their quads sweeps are unreal. What do they do a lot of front squats? Boom, there you go, application.

Starting point is 00:58:03 You know, that's a good example. Sprinters have glutes and hands. Why? Because they sprint. So I would apply sprinting to general population, or ways to create a lot of force. Now, there is skill to sprinting, but there is no skill to throw in a medicine ball really hard. And so that's where going back to the exam or the points we're making earlier, just regressing the exercises to get the adaptation you're looking for. That's what matters the most. An Olympic lifter, yes, it's a very specialized movement to be able to organize to lift that weight over their head. But I can still create that same kind of force with a trap bar. Maybe I don't rack it, so I don't want to capitate myself with a trap bar,

Starting point is 00:58:47 but I can still put that same kind of force, that triple extension, I'm pulling as rapid and violently as possible to have that same adaptation. So things that I would take away from all my experiences in basketball and so apply it to general population is like extensive low level plyometrics. So just something is simple skipping rope. Like I want to see 30 minutes not stop. Like if you can work up to something like that, then you won't run into the problems that I've

Starting point is 00:59:15 ran into in my career with or with my own body. Is when I transitioned out of basketball, I went to be a meathead, right? I wanted to be bigger, faster, stronger. And so in that process, I got away from doing any type of ply measures. I got away from hoopin, I got away from anything that made me athletic. So what I did was my built a body that can write checks that my feet can't catch.

Starting point is 00:59:39 And then boom, torn to pieces. Let's speak straight to each other. And you know what I'm saying? And then now, so in my evolution, I was like, 226, last time I talked to you guys, actually, that's so funny. Three days after I tore my killies, I came in here and did that podcast.

Starting point is 00:59:56 So I rolled it in, I was so half-paying meds too, that was crazy. I was worried about that, I was really worried about that podcast. I mean, that's sharp though. Yeah, you were good. But he's real happy. This is super happy.

Starting point is 01:00:08 But what's happened since that time is my left Achilles is healed. Everything's great, but now my ride Achilles. And that's generally what you see. When you see one go, the other tends to follow suit. Mine is because of a deformity in my heel. So my Achilles sits obliquely. And so I'm just creating this shear force all the time. But there's a said principle to it

Starting point is 01:00:28 where if you train it up, it will eventually get stronger. And so what I found out is, okay, I have a 226 body, I like being awesome, but I can't move. Now that I'm in professional sports, I'm more valued by moving, not by looking apart. Right, yeah. And when I look at the rest of the league, I'm like, by moving, not by looking apart. And when I look at the rest of the league, I might, there's no meat heads here, right?

Starting point is 01:00:48 I was like, oh, that might be a reason. And so because I have a background in basketball, I can be involved a lot more. Like in college, I couldn't even hold a basketball or else it's a violation, which is wild. So many NCAA rules that's ridiculous. That is weird. Yeah, but it's like, the reason why they did it

Starting point is 01:01:03 is because then you could just make an assistant coach, a string coach. And now you have another coach. So that's why they did it. But in professional sports, I can pass, I can shoot, I can, you know, set a screen, I can do all sorts of stuff. So my ability to move is what gets guys to buy in. Like my ability to handle the ball, I am one mixtape, like the stuff that I cared about

Starting point is 01:01:22 growing up. Like they're like, oh, yo, like, I got out the end of the day. Cory's got some stuff, you know, and it's like, oh, I might actually listen to him in the weight room now. So, um, am I suppose we're going to go that way? Oh, low level, low level playoffs. So the first thing I had to do though was, okay, you can't be 226 anymore. Because like, let's just say I'm a Ferrari, which I'm not, but like, I'm a Ferrari, well,

Starting point is 01:01:41 I just put a trailer on that Ferrari. So what do you think's going to happen to it? Yeah. You know, you're just haunt around all this mass and it's not going to let you move better. So I've been in this journey over the past like six months of just losing as much, like even good mass, so that I can have a more efficient body.

Starting point is 01:01:56 And then man, have I been hidden extensive plyometrics like you wouldn't believe. This is what I struggle with so bad. So part of, I want to get back to playing basketball. I miss the sport so much. What do you want? It's the BB beef. I put on like saying.

Starting point is 01:02:08 But like, it was an ego dragon. Yeah, I know. There's some things that I was able to slay it. I was finally able to slay it. And once I slayed it, I took a step back and I'm like, all right, like this is my new journey. My new journey is Jason Statham, Ryan Gosling. Like, that's my new journey.

Starting point is 01:02:25 Well, I can get there. Well, I mean, playoffs and that kind of movement's a skill and your body forgets it. If you don't, you know, this happened to me. It was like a while ago. I was joking about with these guys on the podcast. I went to Cross the street. Some cars were coming to me. I had to run. And as I'm running, I'm like, oh, I forgot how to run.

Starting point is 01:02:40 Ah, you know, and it's because I never do. Right. It's a skill. Like, you know, back to training, you know, Olympic lifting, you know, and it's because I never do. It's a skill, like, you know, back to training. You know, Olympic lifting, I find fascinating because it's gotta be the most studied and scientifically applied programming in strength sports. Probably because it's been nations,

Starting point is 01:02:56 competing against nations for a long time. Did you ever look at the old Soviet era studies that came out with that, you know? I mean, a lot of them now everybody knows because I earned curtain came down. Right. Any interesting things you read out of there that you've applied or is it just frequency training?

Starting point is 01:03:09 Yeah. That's the biggest one. That's the big one. High frequency training and, you know, like speech strength, like the aspect of speech strength so that it catch up the audience, like you have absolute velocity which is sprinting and jumping, or speech strength where you're lifting light weights really, really fast, strength speed where you're lifting moderate weights very, very fast and then relative strength or max strength where you're just grinding through a squatter or deadlift.

Starting point is 01:03:31 So I like living more towards speed strength and I think it's going to create a better body. Like even aesthetically, you know, for instance, like I do lighter cleans, but I put so much more force around, and snatches as well, that I'm like, oh, my upper back feels different now. Oh, I was just trying to grind up a snatch, which you're like, oh, Jesus, that's the last thing you do.

Starting point is 01:03:55 I just jumped over that whole value of speed strength. But now, I have an upper back that can probably handle more strength speed weight, but it's similar velocities. And she's like, looking forward do you see any, have any predictions for any strength training trends that maybe isn't so widely utilized right now? Calisthenics.

Starting point is 01:04:12 Really? I think Calisthenics is gonna make a big splash. So like, like, close chain movements. So like, like, you know, like, guys that do like the crazy, like, rings. Yeah. They do all the, like, the bar pull ups and all these different means means like the human flag.

Starting point is 01:04:25 Yeah. I think there's going to be a trend towards that. No, what? I'm fascinated with it personally. Now, I could be biased because this is where I think the trend is going, but I think accessibility is going to be the new thing. Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 01:04:38 And what I'm finding out, you know, look at COVID, COVID shut down a bunch of gyms, gyms are back open. Now, you guys can speak more to this expertise than I can because I don't understand the general population as well, but I mean, you tell me, did home fitness grow tremendously? Oh, yeah, yeah. Did your gas programs go through the roof?

Starting point is 01:04:57 Our home programs, you know what I'm saying? And I'm like, accessibility is going to be the new thing. And that's where it's like,, do I have access to more often? And if you're doing, for instance, microdosing, well, you don't want to go to the commercial gym three times a day. That's right. That's a very good point.

Starting point is 01:05:11 I want more accessibility. And I think calisthenics can cover a lot of that. So you don't think all the NBA teams are going to adopt tonal? Is that what's not going to grow? Okay, actually, I built a piece of equipment to fight tonal. Is that really?

Starting point is 01:05:24 So I'm going to go, oh man, this is crazy actually. Have you ever, you can go through my social media. I've seen what you build, saw that box. Yeah, it's a cool experience. It is, I've built it because of professional sports. So the craziest thing is my first half season, I'm looking around and we travel to, you know, every city in America basically.

Starting point is 01:05:44 And we're in these arenas and I'm looking around and we travel to you know every city in America basically and we're in these arenas and I'm like We only have access to power blocks and a swiss ball These are the best athletes in the world and this is all they get access to and of course if we're micro dosing That's a big deal because what all can I do with power blocks? Mm-hmm, you know I can do a lot, but I mean come on guys like 82 games of power box like that's a lie And it's not going to be enough load either So I was like what am I gonna do also on that note Guys would miss you if they want to so for instance logistics is a big issue

Starting point is 01:06:18 So in other words, it's let's say we're in the Midwest a very specific Organization and they have their weight room on the other side of the arena or we're specific organization, and they have their weight room on the other side of the arena, or we're in the north, and they have their weight room basically on the third story, so you have to go through fans to get to it. That's a big problem, and athletes are gonna go, no, I'm not doing that, and I agree with them,

Starting point is 01:06:37 there's a safety issue there, I wouldn't do that either. So when I think about that, I go, well, where can they not miss me? And I was like, oh, on the court. And I was like, I wanna set up the weight room on the baseline. And they can't miss me there. And so it started off with just a plyo box.

Starting point is 01:06:53 Like I was like, okay, we'll do some plyometrics, we'll do some altitude drops, we'll do some concentric box jumps. And then it started growing. Okay, we have a med ball, we'll do some other things. Okay, well, I need more load. So I need a land mine, like a land mine would be a good versatile use. Well, okay, I need that.

Starting point is 01:07:08 Well, I'm really getting to this France boss stuff, so I want a ramp. And so after all that time, I was like, let's build something. And so I was able to partner with some people and we built this gym in a box. Oh, interesting. It's crazy, man.

Starting point is 01:07:21 It's all these things fit inside the box and we roll that thing in and out, put it on the plane, like it goes up the conveyor belt, comes off, and it's crazy. So we set this thing up on the baseline, guys run through it before they're shooting a routine. So about two hours to an hour before the game, they go through their movement preparation,

Starting point is 01:07:39 we call it our two-nup sessions, and some of them actually ask, like, there's some stress, like there's actually ask, like, there's some stress. Like, there's some high velocity stuff. There's some high level plyometrics. And then certain guys actually, they experience a lot of load. And then they go onto the court,

Starting point is 01:07:53 go through their shooting routine. And so when you have 82 of those opportunities in a regular season, that's a lot of opportunities to get better. And so that's what I look at it as. I'm like, I'm trying to make it better athlete by the time we get to playoffs. So we talk about the strength,

Starting point is 01:08:07 response, adaptation aspects, like get stronger as the season goes. Why don't we want that also want to better moving athletes going into the playoffs. And so that's where you have 82 opportunities to that. And then post game, if we're on the road, we just set it up in the back and we're training. Oh, that's so great.

Starting point is 01:08:21 Yeah, it's wow. Now, before we got on air, you were sharing with us just like, I mean, just how litigious the NBA is and like what you can, I can't say and all this stuff like that. So I'm curious and you can say you can't say anything if you can, but you know, I see something like, and I can say this, so I'm going to say it first and then you can, whatever you can. You know, I see someone like LeBron James promote tonal.

Starting point is 01:08:43 That was where the jab came from right after the jab, and that like it promotes that and I this motherfucker is not using that and if he is this coach His strength coach probably needs to get fired for that are those and and so what does that put those coaches and I kind of like Can they not comment on that can they can you even comment on that are they like what's the deal? I'll say this there's a lot of ways that I want to comment on it. I would say two things. One, Mike Menceus, which is LeBronzka, he's an amazing human being. He's probably one of my favorite people in the NBA.

Starting point is 01:09:17 The dude's like, he's been with him ever since he started out. But as a human, I love him to death. And in second, I plead to fifth. That's enough said for me right there. You don't say it too. But I would imagine how difficult that would have to be to navigate that, because now your mess with people is money, right?

Starting point is 01:09:35 I mean, he's heavily invested in that. It's not that different than these athletes being sponsored by candy and fast food and stuff like that, which I'm sure they have some here and there, but you know at that level, you're not gonna be eating. I don't know, maybe you are, but I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm sure. I mean, you, I mean, they just remember the big old controversy with DK Metcalf came out because he talked about what he ate like and that was such there was all this controversy about him eating so shitty and stuff like that. You see that? Marshall and Skittles. Yeah, right.

Starting point is 01:10:01 Yeah, you know, it goes both ways. Yeah, it goes both ways. And it goes both ways. I mean, I feel like training is like, the thing that I think it's more about training that's a little more to me more controversial. And maybe that's just because. I agree. This is our space. No, I agree with you.

Starting point is 01:10:14 Yeah, I'm just like, come on, dude. Cause now what happens is like, there's a ton of kids that think that if I buy this piece of equipment and I use this, maybe I'll probably try. Bro, it's, I mean, all sport. I'm like a bodybuilder. So, you know, I'm massive, cause'm massive because I take, you know, super,

Starting point is 01:10:27 oh yeah, check the horse. Yeah. Come on. I chucked the horse really. You know, it's the same thing. I've got a lot of, I've got a lot of, he crushed it. Yeah, he crushed it. He did the total gym, right?

Starting point is 01:10:36 No, the total gym. Was it called the total gym? You ever use one? I have, I have, it's actually interesting. It's a Flottie's machine and it's inclined. It's all, it is, bro. Exactly. It's 100% the point. It's what you're really at. I have I was I was interested in it's a lot of these machine and it's fine Was she really? Can you do it? How much did he make off that how much the Chuck Norris make off the total? I mean not as much as the

Starting point is 01:10:55 Master one you know that's a number one selling piece of exercise equipment all the time I hate my first spring I got like what am I doing? I'm gonna build something business. I know, that's like, yeah. What about resistance bands? I saw that out of favor, totally in favor. Strength athletes didn't use them and strength that power lifters use them.

Starting point is 01:11:15 Bodybuilders starting to use them. What about with you guys? Do you use resistance bands at all? I love bands to create higher stressors. Okay. I hate mini bands. I think mini bands should be. What are mini bands? There's the smaller rubberors. Okay. I hate minibans. I think minibans should be. What are minibans?

Starting point is 01:11:27 There's a smaller rubber band. Oh. Or bands that you put around your knees and you do your thigh master exercises with. And that is a plague and professional sports. Like you just see you guys wrap that on. Like, oh, I feel my glute and you're like, yeah, but there's not enough load to do.

Starting point is 01:11:40 Like that's not creating any. Oh, so glad you just touched that. That's a shitty model workout. So bad. I got to see that stuff. And then of Oh, so glad you did the back. The bikini model workouts. So bad. I got to see that stuff. And then of course, you know, athletes, both in both sectors, college and professional sports,

Starting point is 01:11:51 you see like they like, this is part of my routine. And I'm like, yeah, sucks. I don't know what else to say. It's, I mean, you see, I saw it explode during my years of competing in the bodybuilding world, bikini athletes, it became like every girl in the gym was squatting with bands around here. That's so stupid.

Starting point is 01:12:08 They're better off putting bands on the bar and giving themselves respect. Exactly, I love that. And that's how I would use them. I use them in like power lifting scenarios. Man, I love reverse bands. Yes. Oh my God, do I reverse band athletes to the cows come?

Starting point is 01:12:21 Really? Because it gets them deep. Yes. Sometimes they don't know they can go deep. I kid you not. There's guys that I've had in the past, and I won't say rather, it's in college or professional sports,

Starting point is 01:12:32 but they put 315 on their back, and they're like, ah, now go quarter, and I'm looking at this guy, I'm like, dude, you're 250, like lean. Like, what are you talking about? Like, and then you give him a reverse band, and they're going 450 all the way to the bottom. And I'm like, okay, so now you've experienced this.

Starting point is 01:12:50 Sometimes it's a neck up thing. You experience it. Well, let's take off that band. All right, now you're hitting 405. Like, word, like that was the change. I think it's like a neural, like it's like almost like your body has to learn the movement or you have to get the confidence. I think it's a safety. It's a governor.

Starting point is 01:13:06 Yes, it's a governor in your brain. Because I look at it and that's why I love altitude drops and for those who don't own an altitude drop is you're staying on top of a plyo box and you literally just drop down. You're staying on top of a box, drop, stick the landing. Now get higher, now get higher, now get higher. That, you get to a point where you get high and you're like,

Starting point is 01:13:25 I don't know about this, but when we're growing up and we jumped over fences, right, we jumped off the second story of our house, we're off the roof of our house, like you can look at those like parkour athletes, how they absorb force now in a rollout of it. Yeah, stuff's awesome. Been in a sports performance aspect. If you land in a jumping movement,

Starting point is 01:13:47 you're just reverse engineering a jump. Now that is a lot of eccentric load. Wow, what a great way to high jump. I didn't even think that you would, so how far will you push that? Because I mean, you think of a guy, a John Morant, who's flying to there. I mean, that dude looks sometimes like he's six feet

Starting point is 01:14:02 off the ground or whatever, and training him to be able to drop down from something that's pretty high Do you how high would you take somebody I look at knee displacement and so a knee displacement is how much your knee bends Okay, so and then here's where you get into the weeds how the the structure of the athlete So you look at the guys that look like they barely been their knees, but they fly through the air They look like they're just so stiff, but they're being off the ground. Those guys create force differently than say like, you see like the body builder, like, it's dudes jacked, but does the backflip. Yeah. Okay. He,

Starting point is 01:14:37 did you move? Yeah. He does. That's a different strategy. His strategy is muskarily driven. He's not stiff when he does it. So what he does is he uses a large, full range of motion, deep squat into that backflip. High level athletes do that, but with a quarter of an inch bend in their knees. And that's the difference because it takes a longer time to create that same amount of force.

Starting point is 01:15:00 That's what, you know, tenderness athletes, you watch knee displacement. So if they bend their knees a lot when they land, you're like, okay, that's a good thing. Like we want them to be able to do that. That's building strength for them. Since we're going in the weeds, does that mean that shorter muscle belly,

Starting point is 01:15:15 so body building, what long muscle belly? Is it like short tendons, short tendons, long muscle belly? Does that mean in sports, short muscle belly is more beneficial? I think so, I mean, that's what I've seen. Yeah. I mean, you've seen it before. Like, we're long Achilles, small little calves up top, boing, like these guys are freaks.

Starting point is 01:15:31 So I just look at it like that. Okay. Now, with back to the resistance bands, or the, you know, one thing I noticed with those is, I can add a lot of load with those. Does not hammer my body if I use an equal amount of load with just weights. Do you think there's a different,

Starting point is 01:15:47 it just feels that way to me. I mean, I can even use change, which is progressive resistance, or as I'm lifting the weight, but change still hammer my body more than bands. Bands if like continuous and I'm not sure. I think it's gonna be a vertical tension. Okay, right.

Starting point is 01:16:00 So like, change, it's still load on the bar. It just de- delodes with bands. It's so much of an exponential decrease in mechanical tension at the bottom. Like if you got heavy bands up there, I mean sometimes it's like up to 200 pounds at the bottom that's off. So at the end of the day, when it comes to like how you feel,

Starting point is 01:16:18 you gotta look at it's gotta be mechanical load. It has to be, I know Adam, you were doing them the other day on the incline because Adam set up, It just feels so different. Yeah, and I think that's exactly why. That's why it's different than change. It's helping out a lot more when you're all the way at that bottom like that. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:16:32 So, man does it feel great. Yeah, no. It's interesting. As much as I mean, ego lifted is, I look at it like this, but you still experience full range of motion. Yes. And then when do you actually need to feel that kind of strength out of the bottom? Now, is there a health perspective of doing a full range of motion squat with outbans?

Starting point is 01:16:48 Absolutely. But when we're talking both ends of the spectrum on health and performance, why do you think powerlifters use it to begin with to overload the top? Well, I also think to your point about the governors and that they're being from the neck up, like there's... I remember, and it was, you know, obviously these guys weren't smart enough to probably really know they were just trained to do this. I lifted with these old, this was one of my early 20s.

Starting point is 01:17:10 And I couldn't even squat, 225, or bench press, 225 at this time, real young skinny kid. And they would get me under the squat bar with 315. But they just wanted, they would say, I just want you body, you just need to feel that kid. Yeah, un-rack it, just feel it. Your body needs to feel that way, needs to feel that way. This is crazy-rack it, just feel it. Your body needs to feel that way. It needs to feel that way.

Starting point is 01:17:25 This is crazy. It's like a hundred pounds more than I can even do. Why are we doing this? They're right, though. They were. And I remember, I totally remember that, then I'd go through something like 275, which seems so big for me, then I could do it. You know, same thing with the bench press.

Starting point is 01:17:39 We do the same thing. So, there has to be something about that from the head up of just getting comfortable with holding that much weight and, you know and having the bands to kind of assist in that situation I think is massive. Right. Now, I'll take that to jumping and that's the point of the altitude drop. When you get up high enough, you go, I don't know if I can land this. And that's the moment of, okay, this is where you need to be.

Starting point is 01:18:01 And then let's add stiffness to that. So let's just say, let's throw some numbers at it, like a 24 inch box. All right, 24 inch box is like, I don't know for whoever is trying this experiment, and then they do it and they're like, okay, I did it. Okay, now let's do it with purpose. You're not just surviving it.

Starting point is 01:18:19 Okay, let's do it, but really absorb, like compress as much as you want, have a big knee displacement. So in other words, squat deep when you land it. You have as you want, have a big knee displacement. So in other words, squat deep when you land it. Do you have a cue? I have a cue for that. It's a good point. Quite feet, quite feet.

Starting point is 01:18:31 I like that. Yeah, I like that a lot. Yeah, no, that's a key. I think it's for sprinting a lot. So that's why I'm trying to, when I used to tell clients, they're like, try and make no noise. I like it. Can you land and make no noise?

Starting point is 01:18:41 I like that. I like that. I like that. But when they, but that is so muskarily driven. So like, I mean, I'm telling you, you. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that.

Starting point is 01:18:49 I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that.

Starting point is 01:18:57 I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. I'm just gonna say that. Now, the aspect of getting more athletic, okay, now I want you to be on that 24 inch box, same deal, now do it with barely bending your knees.

Starting point is 01:19:08 And then that's athleticism. The ones that can stick and stick, like stiff. Now, stiffness is health and performance all in one because the stiffness is what's training the tendons. Like I'm training for tendon and ligament strength and development, but that's on the health side. But on the performance side, that reactivity, that small knee displacement is what's going to allow me to create more force faster. Everyone can create a lot of force in professional

Starting point is 01:19:35 sports. Who can create it the fastest? That's really what matters. That's what wins. Yeah, and one thing that I was thinking as you were talking about moving from higher to higher box and saying, oh, can I do that? And then be like, ooh, I did that. Let me go to a higher one. There's, I think a lot of people forget this. There's feedback that goes to your CNS that's also you being afraid. Yes.

Starting point is 01:19:55 Or you feeling confident. I mean, there's stories of athletes hitting PRs because they mis-loaded the bar. So they thought, oh, this is my, this is almost my max. Yes. That's the truth. I think they're actually in the Olympics that happened where somebody actually hit a world record because they, and they thought the bar was loaded lighter than it actually was. So there's that too.

Starting point is 01:20:10 That's the best part about like a Olympic lift or like a colored bumpers. Hey, don't worry about what it is. And that's what I love about kilos. You can't worry about what you're trying to do. No, I'm trying to do the back. It's red blue green. No one cares. It's red blue green.

Starting point is 01:20:23 Well, how much is that red blue green? Like, just, just how much it is. Multi-care the blue. Calculate it later. And all of a sudden they smoke it and you're like, red blue green. Yeah. So to your point, yeah.

Starting point is 01:20:33 Now apply that with sprinting. So how would you do that? Over speed training. So that means make them run faster than what they actually can. How the hell would you do that? Great question. Try them to do it with cars.

Starting point is 01:20:44 No, you can't do it. I mean, essentially, yes, yes. But there's a device that allows you to do that. There's two companies. One's called 1080 Sprint. And the other one's called Dynaspeed. But essentially what it is, it's like tonal, believe it or not. It's electromagnetic resistance. The think of it as like a fishing rod.

Starting point is 01:21:01 So like a spool. So it pulls you? It pulls you towards the device. Now, traditionally, you're using it to go away from the device. So like a speed rocket. So like you're running away from it, or like you're running with a sled behind you, you're running with chain turnshoe, or whatever. Right, so resistant sprinting, well, with this particular device, now you can run towards it

Starting point is 01:21:20 and it makes you run faster. And then you learn that. You learn your self-organized. So now that you're self-organizing at faster velocities, you now, people can run, how many athletes have eaten? People can run some, not many. Really? Not many, because what you do is you just rip the cord.

Starting point is 01:21:37 Like if you're really like that scared, or you change your strategy, and you actually do what you want. What's the name of this? I want to jump the dog to pull it up. I want to see how, see if you want to be. Yeah, what's the call? The there's a dinosaur speed. I like how you said pull my car.

Starting point is 01:21:49 You were almost on point. Yeah. I was like, this motherfucker's like, I told you, I know you pull my ass. We're not gonna call it a giant chain. We're not gonna do this outside of the street. Yeah, but we got to pull it with their car. So Lambo, we got to make this look awesome.

Starting point is 01:22:02 But there's dinosaur speed, but I think 1080 sprint, they actually have more videos. That's so interesting. I didn't even know what tool existed like this. Really, really cool. No, so this makes perfect sense. Of course it makes sense, but it sounds crazy. I was working with the San Jose City track team,

Starting point is 01:22:20 and they had like, I mean, everything was in that direction, that vein of like having a parachute behind you. Yeah, resist, resist, resist, resist,, that vein of like having a parachute behind you. Yeah, resist, resist, resist, resist, resist, resist, resist, resist, resist, resist, resisting you to the top, but this direction. Ain't that reverse bands? Yes. The same color.

Starting point is 01:22:32 Holy shit. Yeah. You know, it's funny. Oh, so it's a, oh, it's wafe. Yeah, it's pulling. So, so, so this makes sense. And I feel like this is the last frontier in training where. Bro, this is brilliant.

Starting point is 01:22:43 It's, it's about, it's, it's less about can I create more force and more strength which we've known and we know a lot about that already but this is more about can I teach the body to organize itself in a better, more efficient way than it already is and the way you do it is you assist and you put it in that position so it's forced to. We do it in weightlifting. Why don't we do it how fast we can?

Starting point is 01:23:03 I can't believe I didn't even know this existed. Absolutely, but that's what we do without the two drops. It's the to we do it in weightlifting. Why don't you do it? This is so fast. I can't believe I didn't even know this existed. Absolutely. But that's what we do without the two drops. It's the same idea. It's higher than what you could ever land. How long has this been around? Ooh, good question.

Starting point is 01:23:13 I have no idea. I mean, how long have you known about it then? So I've known about it for five years, but I've only been in the position where I can afford it this past two years. So that's, there's a difference. It's pretty expensive. Wow. Well, I mean, it makes, how cool. Well, I mean, can you separate the psychology from the

Starting point is 01:23:31 physiology? I don't think so. It's the thing you can. It's all the same. It's all the same. That's another aspect that's like, we, like, especially when you try to be just guy, yeah, so long, all that compression, compression, compression, well, that goes into your psychology too. Sure. And the thing that I've realized the most is when I got away from that, I'm like, be more elastic, reactive, be smooth,

Starting point is 01:23:52 rhythmic, like be able to dance, and be able to move like all of a sudden, like, fast and loose. I'm like, so much more relaxed. I don't have all this built up tension. Like, I don't, I walk smoother. I don't get up and grunt. Like, that's the thing that I noticed when I said that.

Starting point is 01:24:07 I thought that was just like an older, old train. I thought it was old, but that is tension. And it's like how do you create tension? I spend all my time creating tension like this. How do you think that you can see us? You see us we're all gonna be all hell-leaf. We're all skinny. Mine pumped, mine lean.

Starting point is 01:24:22 No, you know it's funny when you said make it run faster. I thought of, you remember the movie Kickboxer with John Cloud Van Dam? Or the, the, the, the, the trainer, it straps a piece of steak to his leg. He's like, what's that for? Make your run faster. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:24:33 That's the dog out. That's a dog. Exactly. Okay, so I, like, well, I have you, so I have to, I want to ask more NBA questions. Yeah. Because I'm such a huge NBA fan. So, um, when you're watching,

Starting point is 01:24:43 and I love hearing from your perspective, because you have a trainer mind like ours. And I think that when I look at athletes, I, there's a, there's a certain thing that I like even more. Like take their personality, even maybe they have good of a shooter, whatever they are. Like just, I see, when I see something crazy athlete, for example, I dropped John Marant, like I just, when I watched that kid play, I'm like, in all of this, what he, what he physically can do on the court, how one, how often does that happen to you where you're at, is every game, or do you, does your draw drop? Does it always happen when you see a certain player? Like tell me like that your experience of seeing that. And like maybe even some names of names of people that like just blow your mind when you see him play.

Starting point is 01:25:27 I'll say this the I always get that every game, but I get it in different ways. Sometimes it's through raw athleticism. And you're just like, oh my god. They had it has the body physical physically capable of doing that. And then when you go to the skill side and you just see like, oh my god, people don't even understand how hard that floater was. Like, because when you're there and you see like how the play develops, like flying to the side on the other side. I mean, like you know the play calling,

Starting point is 01:25:53 like everyone knows what's about to happen and they still can't stop it. When you watch stuff like that, or when you're reading eyes, that's the greatest part about being so close. When you see like look offs and you see like, they know the, they know these guys are exchanging,

Starting point is 01:26:06 and they don't even have to watch, and all of a sudden that ball goes in that direction, hits them right in the chest, and you're just like, oh my God, like, I can't even make that like, mm, chest pass, like directly looking at you out of eye, and I can't even be that precise, and they're doing it over screens,

Starting point is 01:26:21 like over their left shoulder, opposite hand, or non-dominant hand, you're just like, oh my goodness. So that's the thing that it's like, it's from a physical perspective, absolutely, but the skills, it's- Now there's certain guys that you see more of that from, like when you've played against certain teams

Starting point is 01:26:36 or guys on your team, they're like, man, I mean, you got Chris Paul. I mean, one of the most beautiful passers to ever play the game. He's special. Yeah, I look at like this, the technical execution is probably the most fascinating thing you'll ever witness ever, especially from him.

Starting point is 01:26:52 The technical execution is just fascinating. People that really blow me away, I would have to say, man, would be a really good example. And any plays that you saw this year. So I saved it because I don't want to lose, obviously it'll be on freaking replay forever, but I think that chase down block

Starting point is 01:27:14 that John Morant did this year, where he grabbed the ball at the top of the square. At the top of the square is the most, and I watched someone put together a compilation of like all the blocks where someone's done that, LeBron's done that, I think once or twice. The world's really, I think his tops everybody. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:27:32 But the speed at which he came back to get him out, his size to be able to, the height that he got, I mean, at the coordination you need to land everything. When you watch it, it's, I mean, I don't know, I can't put it in the words. Like that's the greatest part about being in it. You get to see that night in and night out, just in different manifestations. Like that one's just through, raw physical athletics, and that's so cool to watch. I mean, guys that I look at, and I go, Jesus. There's like, quiet linear, and when you see him, you're like, good, God, that's a man.

Starting point is 01:28:00 You know, like it's just, some, my first year in a league, it was just looking at people, like, just physical domination. Like you just look at them and you're like a league, it was just looking at people like just physical domination. Like you just look at them and you're like, oh my god, like I don't even know what kind of human that is. Like they're not human actually. They're just a different version, like a more advanced version of humanity. I think why is one of them?

Starting point is 01:28:17 I mean, that's got to be, to that point, because he's a big dude, right? Well, they're all big. I remember my being a kid watching basketball both on TV and then never being able to sit like really low to getting older and more successful in life and actually getting down. When you get down there and you actually get a chance to see like the smallest guys make me look like a little all for sure. And then to see what they're physically capable do is just like mind blowing the phone. Give it a walk around Kevin ran just whatever he does.

Starting point is 01:28:45 Just anything Kevin Durand does is very special. Right, right. I have an interesting question. So they just now allowed into college level to be able to get like sponsorships and all that. And like I just thought that was so disruptive. And obviously you're not in that setting anymore, but like I just want to hear your opinion on it

Starting point is 01:29:04 and also like how you'd have thought you'd been able to like I just want to hear your opinion on it and also like how you'd have thought you'd been able to like manage that in terms of like the players and athletes. I don't think I would have been able to manage it. Like I'm glad I'm removed from the early stages of it. If I ever revisit it, I hope it's like a little bit organized because right now it's the wow wow. It's like it's unbelievable and the money is ridiculous. And the accountability is low. Like that's the part that it's like, it's a little iffy. You know, like you can get all that money at one time. Like maybe, unless they do like payment plans or however they do it,

Starting point is 01:29:41 like you can do like, here's $500,000 done. And then you know what, my ankles hurt. There could be like, you know, you know, Adam, ah, ah, you know, after this season, I'm gonna go to West Virginia. And you're like, what? Like what just happened? So like, I don't think there's enough policing

Starting point is 01:29:59 in this one, because they just don't, this is not organized yet. It's just a wild, wild west. Do you, glad I'm not involved? Do you speculate that they're going to use this as a way to still pay college athletes without like the old ways of doing the old ways are just now not legal. Right. That's all it is. That's what I mean. So it's like,

Starting point is 01:30:21 it's like, so do you think you just open that door to basically? You see you got in trouble trouble for like you don't think What's it what's a stop me like let's say I was a a Doo column. I right. I'm loaded and I'm part of the inner circle of you know hand in cash bags to players for decades Already I'm an old dude I didn't get a picture of you doing it Now this is open the door. So what's to stop me from starting my, you know, own toothbrush line and I'm my own brand. I have an LLC. I start up and really the only reason why I have it is so I can sponsor this. I show company. But for real, like, I think that's what you

Starting point is 01:31:01 can do. And I think that's what's been. Of course, I course. I just don't, I mean, if Nike can do it now, if any of what, like why can't I? That's where I think you're gonna find like a lot of independent people come up and start their stuff. And it's gonna be on the backs of talent, just like in any other industry. It's just interesting how it's gonna manifest. of talent, just like in any other industry.

Starting point is 01:31:25 It's just interesting how it's going to manifest. I just wonder, especially in the college, how the divisions are now happening, like teams are leaving conferences, and it's now going to the highest bidder. So now I wonder what this shakeup's going to look like. It's basically professional sports, but it's more like semi league for like the big 12s now,

Starting point is 01:31:45 humongous, the big 10, and now the pack 12 is now dwindling down. So I'm like as pack 12 now, I'm gonna be like a mid major. And it's all about the TV deals, and there's so much money into it. It's gonna get really, really interesting. Well, it's, you know, Sal and I listen to a podcast called The All-In Podcast. He's four billionaire dudes,

Starting point is 01:32:03 and one of the things they're talking about is they believe in the, I don't think he said that next 20 years, did he say like no big brands are going to exist anymore? No, yeah, he says it's 20 years. Yeah, the democratization of media. He says, if you want to sell something in the next 20, 30 years, you have to produce content. Yeah. Well, that just example of influencers like Kim Kardashian launching line for sure, a billionaire and for sure.

Starting point is 01:32:24 That one died Mr. Beast. He's like a burger shop. Oh yeah. Or 20,000 people showed up and it's opening. I mean, that's what we do, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's the same deal. It's just, you know, we're not getting paid.

Starting point is 01:32:35 Yeah, but it's really going to disrupt the space as far as like brands and advertising because I mean, imagine if you're, and I made, I used a stupid analogy of a toothbrush. But if I had that kind of pool and that kind of capital, what's the stop me from going and getting 40 of the biggest name college kids that are coming up and giving them some of the biggest contracts, I could literally take a no name toothbrush brand and turn it into a household name at a,

Starting point is 01:33:00 I don't know where like that. I mean, if you got the cap, I mean at the end of the day, do you have a liqueur cash? Right, if you got the capital, do it. You know, it's all about what you want to get out there. And that's where sports has always been a leverage point for anything. Totally.

Starting point is 01:33:13 So now it's just college, you can do it. You know, that's, it's, now I don't know how you protect brands now. Like for instance, like, let's look at example, like an Ivy League school, how do you protect like a Harvard? You know? And then all of a sudden, like let's look at example, like an Ivy League school, how do you protect like a Harvard? Yeah, right. And then all of a sudden, like one of your athletes

Starting point is 01:33:28 is an only fans subscribe. Like, you know, like I don't know, like how does that work? Like yeah. They're gonna have to earn it out. And I agree with you, I think it's gonna, we'll figure it out in the next 10 years or so, 10, 15 years. I think it's gonna be, it's gonna be super wild.

Starting point is 01:33:40 Well, good deal, man. You're a great guest. Always a lot of fun. You know, pick in your brain. Yeah, one of the things I like most about you, you're you're you're really good at the science of just adaptation and strength training in particular. And you and you explain it very well. So I really appreciate you having me on the show and absolutely learning from you. Well, I really, I really think of you guys as like our the three

Starting point is 01:34:00 horsemen in and sports like our guru. I think you, a smartzo and fabrics are, I think you, uh, smartzo and, uh, fabrics are, I think three of the best in my opinion, uh, in the space that are putting out information related to sports training. And I think that it's been, uh, behind for a long time. And I remember coming across all you guys is called, I know Justin introduced us to you first, but, and then ironically, you guys were all friends. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:34:22 So that's what's kind of funny. He's like, we found you guys individually and then find out everybody's all connected. And of course, Max Loki interned for me for like two weeks. Oh no! No shit! You get a hold of that over friends. Yeah, I know.

Starting point is 01:34:33 Just remember. Just remember, just remember. Remember! Good stuff, bro. Good stuff. Thanks for coming on. Thank you, Joe. I'm in appreciate, Joe. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump.

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Starting point is 01:35:06 to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints in over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainer's butt at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at MindPumpMedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing MindPump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is MindPump. reducing mind pump to your friends and family.

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Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1927: Performance Training Secrets from a Top NBA Trainer With Cory Schlesinger

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