Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2342: The Porn Addiction Solution With Sathiya Sam

Episode Date: May 23, 2024

His background and how he got into the field of pornography. (1:57) The silent epidemic of pornography. (3:49) Tapping into something that is so biologically wired into us. (8:43) The deeper the hooks go, the harder it is to get out of it. (10:29) How this can mold a child’s brain. (13:58) At what moment did he notice a problem and how did he stop? (17:02) Is there an archetype that tends to be addicted? (20:06) What’s on the other side of this? (21:17) Porn vs. video game addiction. (23:38) What drives someone to stop? (27:40) Why porn is an intimacy disorder. (30:39) The 3 Pillars of Recovery. #1 - Emotional fitness. (32:19) #2 – Transformation of the heart. (33:03) #3 – Identity shifting. (33:30) How the things that we watch bring clues to our trauma. (34:36) The need for more protection for minors. (40:48) The four major effects on the brain. (44:47) Porn and ADHD. (48:50) Common triggers connected to pornography addiction. (49:49) The pressure on women with body image issues. (53:38) Fast food intimacy. (56:59) Sobriety vs. freedom. (1:00:35) Getting in touch with your future self. (1:05:52) Casting a new vision to stay motivated. (1:08:26) Porn, the modern-day cigarette. (1:11:29) Is there a cultural shift? (1:12:53) Some examples of the craziest situations he has helped people through. (1:13:45) The benefits of quitting porn. (1:17:13) Related Links/Products Mentioned Visit PRx Performance for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! Special Launch Promotion: MAPS Muscle Mommy ** Code MM80 at checkout for $80 off. Includes: Bonus #1- Mike Matthew’s THINNER LEANER STRONGER. BONUS #2-Mike Matthew’s THE LITTLE BLACK BOOK OF WORKOUT MOTIVATION. Ends Sunday, May 26th. ** The Last Relapse: Realize Your Potential, Reclaim Intimacy, and Resolve the Root Issues of Porn Addiction How Many People Actually Watch Porn? | Psychology Today Mind Pump #2217: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson This Is Why Many Women Watch Porn | Psychology Today If You Ignore Porn, You Aren't Teaching Sex Ed - The New York Times Watch Money Shot: The Pornhub Story | Netflix Official Site The association between problematic pornography use and eating disorder symptoms among heterosexual and sexual minority men Billie Eilish says watching porn from age 11 'really destroyed ... - CNN Everything you think you know about addiction is wrong - TED Pornography consumption as existential escape from boredom Can Excessive Masturbation Cause Infertility - Birla Fertility & IVF Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Sathiya Sam (@sathiyamesam) Instagram Website Podcast Adam | Relationship Psychology (@attachmentadam) Instagram Jordan Peterson (@jordan.b.peterson) Instagram Johann Hari (@johann.hari) Instagram Andrew Huberman, Ph.D. (@hubermanlab) Instagram  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness, health, and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pumping. In today's episode, we have the host of the Unleash the Man Within podcast, Sathya Sam. He's also an expert on porn addiction. Pornography.

It is all over the place, permeated all of society. There's tremendous negatives and he's an expert on helping people break the addiction. In today's episode, we go over what it does to your brain, your body, your relationships, and how to stop the cycle. He also has a book called The Last Relapse. Realize your potential, reclaim intimacy, and resolve the root issues of porn addiction. Now this episode is brought to you by one of our sponsors PRX

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so it's like having a gym membership except you work out at home. Anyway, check them out and get yourself a discount through our link. Go to prxperformance.com forward slash mind pump. Also brand new program launch maps muscle mommy. This program is for women Who want to build muscle sculpt their body speed up their metabolism who want to get lean while eating more? That's what this program is all about

And it's on sale. So because it's a launch, here's what you got to do go to maps muscle mommy.com on sale. So because it's a launch, here's what you got to do. Go to mapsmusclemommy.com, use the code MM80. That gives you $80 off and you get two free eBooks, Thinner, Leaner, Stronger and the little black book of workout motivation. All right, here comes the show. Sethia, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, man. Thank you so much for coming on. So I'd like for you to go over your background a little bit, just so the audience is familiar with kind of what you do, the kind of work you do,

and then we can kind of get into the topic. Yeah, I mean, we might as well just jump in. I'll ask quick porn. How did you get to that, right? Yeah, 100%. So I was a university researcher for several years, and I was actually struggling with pornography while I was researching,

because it was an intense environment, you need some way to cope. And for me, pornography was kind of how I did that. So studying at university, I actually was a pastor for 10 years after that, kind of had a career switch. And you know, was struggling, kind of got clean during that time. And we can get into that a little bit if you want. But just noticed how many guys were struggling. You know, when I first kind of found the issue, I thought I was the only one.

And then I'm pastoring people through it, just realizing how prevalent it is. These are like good guys, you know, good guys at church that you would never expect to struggle with it. But they were struggling just like everyone else. So that's when I realized the prevalence of the issue. And then about five years ago, I realized, I think there's an opportunity here

for me to do something more serious with it. And I was feeling in a better place. I was feeling like this doesn't have the stranglehold on me that it used to. So I just started helping my buddies a little bit. I was helping guys for free and just trying to see if I could even figure it out for them because I had figured it out for myself. And yeah, start to see a lot of success. Start to realize just no one was talking about it.

So start to create some media platforms and create conversations around it. And the rest is history. We grew a lot the last two years in particular. Yeah. What year was this and what were you actually researching for university? It wasn't around porn. It was for something else.

No, I mean, no one was talking about pornography back then. Right. So I was in like a bio research lab. So we talked about everything from like genetics to neuroscience to photosynthesis. That was actually what I did my honors in. It was, it was totally different and unrelated,

but then I had a minor in psychology and brain and behavior, all that kind of stuff. So what's interesting about this topic is, like you said, a lot of people aren't talking about it. Now people are starting to talk about it. In fact, when I brought this up on the show, a couple of times I've talked about the data on some of the damage that it's doing in people's behaviors with the fMRIs are showing the brain activity, that kind of stuff. Yeah. I get all these messages from people who are like, oh man, this is a big problem, this is a problem for me,

or this is a problem for my husband, or I've had women say the same thing. And at our age, we're all in our early to mid 40s, we went through the evolution of pornography being not accessible at all to being so accessible that it's like one of the most accessible vices or potential addictions that you could get. Like there's almost nothing with this addictive kind of properties that is that accessible versus when we were kids, which was like, I mean I could trade a dirty magazine for a bike

Yeah, you know when I was when I was a teenager, so yeah, let's start with the data What is the data on pornography showing? Is this causing problems? Is it changing behaviors in bad ways? Like what do we need to look out for? Okay, so as a starter, pornography is what they call the three A's. It's affordable, it's accessible and anonymous. And no other drug really possesses those three qualities the same way.

That's what makes it so rampant in our culture. Then you have the socialization of it, right? Like some people think it's okay, some people think it's bad, there's a lot of people in between who don't know. So all of that has created what I would call a silent epidemic. So the numbers don't lie.

The top three porn sites get more traffic than Twitter, Amazon, and Netflix combined. So that alone should give you an idea of the kind of traffic it's generating. And I think we know that. It's a hundred billion dollar industry. You know, the stats go on. The impacts happen in three arenas.

And honestly, we should probably spend most of our time here today. I think the first is relationships. The second is the individual's health and wellbeing. And the third would be spiritual life or, you know, purpose, meaning values, however you want to frame that. The most devastating is definitely the relationships because we all know the quality of our life is determined by the quality of our relationships. So anything that impedes relationships, causes relationship dysfunction,

it's going to be a problem. When pornography is introduced into a relationship, there's a 56% more likely chance that they will divorce. Just on that alone. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So divorce rates, then you have like, I'm trying to remember now the stat. It was something like, because we know 70, about 70% of divorces are initiated by the woman.

And I think about 60% of those divorce cases cite the partner's porn use as one of the primary reasons for the divorce. Whoa, I didn't know that. We've talked about that stat before. You've brought that stat up before. Yeah, but that's huge. I didn't know that. Yeah. We've talked about that stat before. Yeah. You've brought that stat up before. Yeah, but that's huge. I didn't know that there was that large of a percentage that were connected to pornography. It's up there.

Don't quote me on that exact number, but it's up there. It's more than 50 for sure. Wow. So it's a, it's a huge player. Yeah. So, because a lot of people think it's like, well, it's innocuous, you know, especially if we do it together, husband and wife type of deal.

Yeah, it just doesn't work. What is the data showing on why this is affecting? Is it jealousy or is it, is it different? Uh, okay. So it's two things. So number one, you guys are going to have Adam back in here soon, right? doesn't work. What is the data showing on why this is affecting? Is it jealousy or is it different? Okay, so it's two things. So number one, you guys are going to have Adam back in here soon, right? Adam and Smith? Tomorrow. Yeah, okay.

So there's actually a really interesting study that shows people's capacity for attachment plummets when they view pornography. So specifically, a guy will have a reduced ability to empathize when he's viewing pornography. So you can imagine how that starts to affect the relationship quality. Wow. Right? Because you can't empathize with your partner, there's no emotional connection and eventually the woman starts to be like, well, forget it. You know, this guy's like a meatball.

I can't actually connect with him. So there's the emotional part of it. Then there's the more like sexual part of it, which is if you are watching pornography with any kind of regularity, you are increasing what I call kind of regularity, you are increasing what I call your arousal threshold, what it takes for you to feel aroused. And porn is what they call a super normal stimulus. So the level of stimulation that it provides your brain is unnatural.

There's nothing you could experience in a real life scenario that would even be close to pornography. So if you watch this repeatedly again and again, your threshold gets higher, higher. And then, you know, if you watch pornography long enough, you start to watch weirder stuff or you no longer watch, but you start to actually seek in-person experiences. Very, very typical of the clients that we work with is, you know, the video stuff no longer did it. The pixels weren't enough.

So they went for an in-person experience or a massage parlor or whatever it is. So what happens is then they go back to a real life experience with, you know, their wife, their partner, whoever it is. And that person just can't compare because that person's not perfectly manicured and produced like what they see on the screen. And so their bodies don't respond. So you have this this epidemic actually now of men, this is more on the personal side of it. It's estimated that about 33% of men under the age of 40 experience erectile dysfunction now. Wow. 33%, one in three. Wow.

And that's, sure, there's stress, I mean, there's all kinds of stuff. It's not just pornography, but let's not kid ourselves. Like with the rampancy of pornography, that's a huge part of it. So, this is why it's starting to erode the relationship quality. Yeah. So, I read an article on pornography and its effects and the article, and I'd love your input on this, it said one of the reasons why it's so damaging, potentially damaging is because it's tapping into a natural, for example, anytime we work with something that skews or distorts an already natural desire, then the potential for abuse goes through the roof.

For example, food. Food is one of the most abused substances in the world. Appetite, wanting to eat, that's a normal, natural thing to have. Then we distort it with foods that stimulate our senses and we can't match those with nature. Next thing you know, fruit is bland and I need candy and I need whatever. So that's just one example. I'm in the health and fitness space so I use that one. But with pornography, the sexual drive is a normal natural drive and to tamper with that, you know, this article is making a point like that's not something you necessarily want to do. No, and it is true.

I love having conversations about like, okay, what's worse? Pornography or cocaine? Pornography or alcohol? You know, I mean, how the hell do you compare those things? Like, there's not necessarily an answer. But that's what I always come back to Sal is it's like, this is taking advantage of something that is fundamentally innate. You can't escape your sex drive no matter how you slice it. And I think that's why the porn industry is a hundred billion dollar industry. Because it's capitalizing on something that we all desire, you know, like they say sex sells.

So that's what makes it really easy to get into. It's also what makes it really hard to get out of. And that's what we find, like with the clients we work with, these guys are just as messed up. I mean, we've had clients who said, you know what, I actually was addicted to cocaine or I was addicted to alcohol. I was able to quit those things. Sometimes it's cold turkey, sometimes they did rehab, but they could not for the life of them figure out pornography. Cause it's tapping into something that is just

so biologically wired into us. Yeah. You mentioned that, um, this isn't something we could ever accomplish in nature. I heard this example once and it blew me away. It said in the past before this easy access to pornography, not a, there was no king or conqueror that could have access to pornography, not a, there was no king or conqueror that could have

access to novelty that the average 15 year old could have with their iPhone. Yeah, that's right. So for Genghis Khan. Not even Genghis Khan. He wouldn't have the access to this, I mean, there's an infinite number of videos and categories. And then when it comes to novelty, novelty is part of sexual stimuli, right? You mentioned you have to look at weirder and weirder things. Isn't there data showing that the type of pornography that people are watching is getting more and more extreme and hardcore? Oh, it's getting weird. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, it's getting really weird. So, well, yeah, for starters, novelty enhances pleasure, which is why the first time you get exposed to something, it's actually kind of invigorating. And then you kind of keep watching similar stuff, eventually it starts to progress. So that was the case for me. Like I got exposed to pornography, I was 11 years old, and it was it was the softest porn you could imagine. But by the time I was like full blown addicted to it, like really reliant on it, I was watching way more hardcore stuff. Like it had gradually kind of incrementally gotten worse. What they show now, what qualifies as mainstream pornography,

about 80% of it depicts scenes of violence and aggression and specifically towards the woman. So like the content has intensified and then you can just imagine the subliminal messaging that's kind of happening here every single time you watch this. And then again, like kids are getting exposed younger now. So I got exposed when I was 11. I mean, how old were you guys? Do you guys remember when you were first exposed?

Are we including like a magazine? Is that right? Yeah. Okay. So first time I saw a magazine, I was probably 14 or 15. Yeah. Yeah. I would say eighth grade, seventh, eighth grade, probably the first time I

see that. Yeah, that's pretty typical of like millennials or older. Um, but Gen Z and younger, like they're getting exposed eight, nine years old. Oh, that's crazy. Right. And now they're not getting exposed to these really violent scenes of pornography, right? Like the porn companies know what they're doing. They groom them to get very like soft exposure.

Is there evidence of this that they're actually grooming this kind of new user? I wouldn't use the word evidence. I would say it's a theory and these guys are freaking geniuses. Like the porn industry, they're the reason for, um, like the freemium model, they're the first companies to ever transact online. Like these guys are pioneers in everything. They were leading, I have a family member who's been in marketing for like 34 years.

And he makes this like kind of like tongue in cheek, like, you know, pay attention to what the porn industry is doing. Whatever they're doing. They are leading the way in marketing always. Like, dude, I he makes this like kind of like tongue in cheek like, you know, pay attention with the porn industry. Yeah, whatever they're doing. They are leading the way in marketing always. Like, dude, I just heard this crazy story. This is like the first porn site that one of the first porn sites that ever existed. These guys were selling BDSM equipment for lack of a better word, and they found they had got all this traffic, but not tons of sales.

And so they created like a subscription service just for people to access the photos. And and they made like a killing off of it. This is one of the first porn sites. Guess what year it was? 1994. Oh, wow. Yeah. So just to give you an idea of how...

That's when subscription services exist like that. Yeah. We give places like Netflix and those places, they give the credit, but really it was being done way before that. Yeah, like two decades before them. Yeah. So they're always on top of it. So again, I couldn't show you the exact evidence that they're targeting children, but we all know even just from a business perspective, if they want to have people

watching their stuff long-term coming back to their sites, you get them exposed young, the deeper the hooks go, the harder it is for them to get out of it. So here's my question with that because I'm familiar somewhat with the brain's plasticity and it's always plastic to an extent, meaning it can mold and shape itself, but it's hyper plastic when you're a child. For example, if you teach a child four languages, before a certain age, they can speak all of them

without an accent. Now, if you teach me four languages, I'm going to have an English accent with every single one, because my brain's ability to mold itself is now limited compared to when I was a child. Do we have any data on how this could potentially mold a child's brain in permanent ways? Especially, yeah, like imprints, their sexual behaviors get imprinted in a certain window of this developmental stage. Yeah, the imprints are really hard to reverse. That's a really good word.

So what is that? Explain that for a second. Okay. Um, how do I explain an imprint? So, okay. You have a, you have a little son, right? Yeah. Okay. Your son comes up to you and he puts his arms to get picked up and you're too busy. And so you say, ah, I can't pick you up right now. So an imprint gets made in the child of how he experiences

affection and how much his needs matter. Okay. Now I don't want to put pressure on parents. Like obviously no one's going to be perfect in every single moment, but it's just an example of an imprint. Those imprints start to shape the way that we experience relationships, attachment, everything in life. And the imprints are stronger when they're sexual in nature,

just because as we talked about, sexuality is so biological. It's so innate. So if a child gets exposed young, I would say it's impossible for it to not impact their development because you're still developing sexually when you're young, right? And you don't complete development until 21, 23, 25, depending on who you ask. So of course it has an impact. The amazing thing though is that your brain can still reverse most if not all of those effects even in your adult years.

So there is a cost to be concerned. It's better that we protect our kids. I'm all for that. But for the people who are listening, who are like, man, I did get exposed young, you know, and I didn't, I don't know what to do, your brain can still reverse and I'm a great example of that. I haven't watched in eight years. And like I said, I got exposed when I was 11 years old and struggled for 15 years.

I read this article that, that theorized that the whole fetish of getting spanked started in boarding schools where you had these adolescent boys, you know, they would get paddled by their teachers, they're developing sexually and they imprinted this kind of sexual feeling from them and then they became adults and they're like, Hey, this is what I like.

It's crazy. Like that's not a bad theory actually. And that might sound a little out of left field, but like those early childhood experiences are super formative for, you know, your appetites and the things that you seek after. And the other side of it is like, you know, if you have a female teacher, a female authority,

who is maybe like, cause you know, if we got hit in school, we know that like they don't really care about why we didn't finish our homework or why we got the bad grade or misbehaved or whatever it was, right? And that ultimately leaves you running at a deficiency emotionally, you know,

because they don't understand or they don't see or they don't get it, they don't appreciate it. And that drives a lot of sexuality is unmet needs in the specific places that we look for it. Going back, I want to hear a little bit about your personal journey from, you get introduced at 11 years old, and then eventually you get to the point where you recognize it's going to...

Were there signs leading to that, that, oh, this is becoming a problem? Like, when you look back now, are you like, there was like, oh my God, I can't believe I was that addicted? Like, yeah, tell me a little bit about your journey of, like, realizing this. Well, OK, when I was in high school, I remember telling myself, I can stop whenever I want. You know, like, and that usually when you start to have to defend it, that's kind of when you know, like, you know how bad it is, right?

That's a common thing that a drug addict would say, right? Exactly. Oh, no problem, I can totally stop. Yeah, I can stop whenever I want. So basically what happened is, I'm in university, I'm studying biology, I'm in this research lab, I grew up in a pastor's home. I actually got exposed to pornography in the computer lab of my Christian school. Oh my gosh.

Wow. Just to put it in perspective, like you can't get protected from this stuff no matter where you are. And all of a sudden, like everything I've ever believed is being confronted because I'm in a very atheistic environment. So, I do like a bunch of soul searching. I'm trying to figure out why do I believe what I believe? Do I actually believe this? And my conclusion is I want to be a Christian. I want to commit my life to Jesus. So I make this decision and I know that with it come lifestyle changes because I wasn't really living that life.

I was kind of living it but not really. And top of that list was I guess it's time to quit pornography. And I was ready to like I was really sold out on this decision and I went like three days and I was like, huh, that's interesting. I was probably just a fluke, probably just a bad thing. And then I started to reflect, I'm like, man, for the last three years that I've been researching, studying, I was working and volunteering,

like I was doing everything. I'm like, I basically would plan my days around when I was gonna watch pornography. Like that was like the thing, that was the reward. Cause you don't get rewarded in university when you're just getting good grades and researching. Like that was the thing I had to look forward to. So those were like when I started to piece some things together, like this is actually really bad.

This is like an addiction and I had no idea. How did you stop? Okay, so back then there wasn't people like me talking about this. So it was really hard to figure out how somebody does stop. The only two things that I knew were you could put an internet filter on your device and get an accountability partner talk to somebody. So I did both those things, neither of them worked. So that was like the first two, three years.

And I just kept trying different filters. I kept trying to talk to different people. Like, you know, I was earnest about it. But you know, an internet filter is kind of like, it's like running over a weed with a lawnmower. Like everything looks clean for a little bit because the logic of it makes sense. You're blocking the behavior, but there's reasons underneath the surface that are driving that behavior. And until you tackle the roots, yeah, it's not going to change anything long term. So that was me. It was just three years of basically running over the same weeds with a lawnmower. Then I started to kind of get more into the roots like exploring traumas and belief systems

and realizing I had no emotional awareness or self-awareness. That's when things really start to change for me. And that was another 18 to 24 months of pursuing that. And I would say pursuing that in the context of really healthy community. That's where I actually found legitimate freedom. Is there, is there an archetype, uh, that, that tends to become addicted or is there, are there things that you've been able to connect like, like, oh, if you've had these things in your childhood or trauma, and then this happens, like, have you been able

to connect dots like that? Like, I mean, it's hard to say, like there's really not a lot of data about this because it's such a taboo thing. Yeah. I can tell you about the clients that we've worked with and you know, we've had helped over 10,000 people the last couple of years. So, one thing we see is a lot of people are into fitness, into sports, into video games. Those are all really high on the list. That's just like general interest. Rigid households growing up is very common. Um, another one would be mama trauma. That's a really popular one.

Um, and we should, we should get into that because there's some interesting data around that. Um, those are probably the two big things. And then I would say personal development, like a lot of people that actually care about this stuff, they actually care about themselves. Like at their actual core, they want to be better. Most of them don't actually want to have this in their life.

They just don't know how to get it out or they don't know there's another way to live. I check all those boxes. That's crazy to me. And there's probably a lot of people that are big consumers of pornography that are like, whatever, I don't care. So they're not really trying to tackle it, not knowing what- Definitely. By the way, what's on the other end of this? So I'll speak personally. So I stopped pornography probably completely about maybe six months ago. Good for you, man.

Completely. Nice. And I noticed some tremendous benefits. One of the main benefits was my relationship with my wife and my arousal around my wife, which was always good, went through the roof and it made our intimacy explode. I did not realize the numbing effects that the pornography had on me and my body. And also just in general, how I viewed things and saw things in regular advertising and whatever.

Now I see how hypersexualized things are. Yeah. Whereas before, but from a personal standpoint, it had a tremendous benefit. And I could see how a young man who's single might be so numbed from pornography that they're less likely to pursue scary, I know, I gotta go talk to that girl. I gotta go get her to see if she likes me or whatever.

For men, this helps turn you into a man. It's like, I gotta go be presentable. I gotta know how to talk to a girl or whatever. This is a strong driver. But if I'm watching porn all the time, eh, it numbs it and I think I'll just stay home. You know, type of deal. Plus you just, you don't have to risk rejection

if you're watching porn. It's like the ultimate acceptance quote unquote. Yeah. Oh, it's way less risky. Yeah. Way, yeah, exactly. There's literally no risk. I mean, the only risk you have is getting

caught, but it really does program men to be very docile and it kind of, it almost kills like that pursuit in us. Cause I think we're all wired to pursue, right? You know, you want something, you go after it. That's like, that's textbook manhood right there. You know?

And I think when you don't have that or that gets shut down or suppressed, you become a fraction of the man you're supposed to be. Is what I'm saying common? Do people notice those benefits? I'm like, what's on the other end of this? Yeah, I figured you were either going to say better sex life or your brain fog cleared.

It's usually one of those two things right away. Wow. So that's what you notice with your clients that are going through this. 100%. So that's initial. That's like, we can get people experiencing that early before they've even quit altogether. Because your brain and your body will start to rewire pretty quickly.

Again, because the stimulus is so strong. So when it's really present, of course it has a devastating impact. But when it's absent, the impact is just significant because it's so wired to it. But then what happens afterwards is guys start to find purpose. Guys start to take more risk in life, not just relationally, but vocationally. You know, we've had guys who start that business they've always wanted to start, or guys who want to be more active in their communities, but they felt like a hypocrite, or they didn't want to be around other people too much because they didn't want to get exposed and now they got nothing to hide.

How similar have they compared video game usage with porn and like in terms of... Because what you're saying is a lot of what I've heard people describe video games out. Well, okay. I like to do comparisons. I don't think anybody's really researching the comparisons of that kind of stuff yet because porn addiction is still debated whether or not it's an actual addiction, which to me is a little bit absurd because it's obviously addictive. Well, there's still people that promote it as it's a healthy thing to do with a relationship.

There's that too. Yeah, there's that too. But there's some people who are even like, yeah, you know, porn is like, you can watch it compulsively, but it's not an addiction. Because it's just a little bit different. But I think to answer your question compared to video games, it's very similar. Like it's very similar in the effect it has. It's very dopamine driven. It keeps you hooked. You naturally want to do more and more. So even with video games, like somebody who gets addicted to video games,

it intensifies what they do to get the win. You know, the levels of risk they'll take to play their video games. It starts to damage their lifestyle. They start to neglect social commitments. All those things are the same with pornography. But again, video games don't really play into a fundamental desire. Not the same way that pornography would.

We're less nefarious. Although Jordan Peterson would debate that, he would say that we have this fundamental desire to conquer, to complete... Accomplish, accomplish, yeah. And the video games fulfill that desire. That's part of what it is. Yeah.

And that's part of the open-loop theory that the way they design the games is that you're always trying to level up or get the next thing. And so there is something that causes that like want to keep coming back to the video game. Well, I could definitely see that. I mean, you're consciously like thinking of that's your only reward, you know, throughout the day. So it's like, you know, between porn or games or whatever that it's not really, you know, producing a productive life, a driven life. You know, these are something to consider. Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

And that's why it's so fun when people do start to get free of this stuff is because they start to find purpose. They start to become way more productive. Like we work with a lot of high performers. We've been working with athletes, actors, all those kinds of people, doctors, surgeons, and that's the one thing is they notice is they're just sharper. Like they just don't need all the energy drinks or whatever they were doing before to kind of get the lift.

It's just they're a bit more naturally, which is really cool. Interesting, yeah, I was talking to, I won't say too much because then he'll know who he is, but there was a young man and he was talking about how hard it is and how guys don't approach young women anymore. And then I talked to a young woman,

who's a sister, she's like, oh yeah, if a guy walks up to me, it's like a big deal. And I'm like, really? You're like 17. It's almost embarrassing. Yeah, and so this whole thing about this docile, like it's taking this driver, because philosophers have talked about sexual driver

as being the driver behind creativity, behind trying to- Innovation. Yeah, innovation. Yeah, those big Freudian things. Yeah, and creativity, behind, you know, innovation. Yeah. Innovation. Yeah. Those big Freudian things. Yeah. Yes. And so it's like, you're, you're just constantly hampering it down. So like, you're now, you're, that's like the, the stereotype of the, I'm in my mom's basement.

Yeah. I'm not doing anything. I'm in the dark playing video games, watching porn. Yeah. I don't want to do anything. Yeah. That stereotype is there for a reason though, because if you, if you trick yourself into thinking porn is better than chasing a woman, because I don't risk rejection and I don't have

to go through all the work and all that kind of stuff, you are naturally going to think this is what sex is, right? What you see on a screen. Oh, this is what women want. This is, I guess, what women are. And you're naturally just getting programmed basically to objectify them.

Basically, your whole world becomes about you. And that's another, again, another byproduct of somebody who starts to quit. They start to just think about other people. Like you were talking about how you're starting to see other people differently, right? Yeah. Like that's just natural because when you are watching pornography or when you are in any compulsive sexual behavior, your number one priority is you. That's all you really care about.

At least that's first and foremost. Everything else is a distant second. And we all know, even for a healthy sex life, the best sex is always selfless in nature. When you can learn to prioritize the other person, that's the marker of healthy sex. And all of these things kind of get lost when, yeah, the person's just watching pornography and opting for that over a real relationship. Have you ever seen, I can't remember the name of the actor, the movie Don Juan? Did you ever see that movie? I don't think so, no.

Yeah, so it's a movie about a guy basically who has a porn addiction. Oh, I remember that. And one of the things, Katrina and I just watched it for the second time in a long time, and it just popped up in the thing, like, oh, put it on. And I didn't even realize that that's what the movie was really about, that it was just like this kind of like

Playboy guy, but it really was diving into his porn addiction. I was like, oh, that's funny, I never looked at it this way. Interesting. And one of the things I thought was interesting was he, uh, he would have sex. Uh, and then afterwards would still have this need to want to masturbate to pornography and didn't matter how new or different or hot the girl was. He could not even, uh, get off the same way that he could. Is that common? Is that where you have these people that become so addicted to it that even the most amazing novel stimulus with a real woman

is not even getting, they're not even getting the same pleasure as they would by themselves watching porn. Yeah, that's 100% true. Wow. Yeah, like with a real life person, it's like, even if it's like the most incredible experience, let's give it a six, it's a six, whatever the scale is, it's a six, pornography would be like a 16. That's so crazy to me because that has to be so hard to unwind.

Yeah. Because you're, it's almost like you're confirming your own bias, like, oh, this is better. Why would I want, like that has to be so hard to fix that. Yeah. And that's why usually what drives somebody to actually stop is they reach some inescapable pain point. Like they can't get it up. Their wife is threatening to leave. They get caught at work. Uh, geez, the amount of guys that have lost their jobs because they're watching on a work laptop or they got caught at work.

You think the most embarrassing thing ever. You have to tell your buddies that you lost your job for nobody. Tell their buddy that. Yeah. You would be shot. You'd have to tell your buddy so you lost your job for it. Nobody's telling their buddy that. Yeah, you'd make some shit up. It's a different story for sure. Yeah, you'd definitely make some shit up, right? Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah.

But those are very common stories. So this makes me, I like to use, I like to make parallels with what we do with health and exercise and nutrition, and you'll hear people say that about heavily processed foods, which are engineered to hit all the sensors in the brain and hit the dopamine and all that stuff. And they'll say, man, I, you know, whole natural foods, like it doesn't compare. Well, because the measurement you're using is just this one hedonistic value.

So if sex is just that, well, yeah, pornography is going to win. But what about all the other things that you're missing from being with a real person and having a relationship, which pornography is almost training people to separate completely, like sex and then what's a relationship? Yeah, exactly. Especially for men, because men can compartmentalize, right? We do that very easily. And sex is incredibly integrated.

So that's the beauty of somebody getting clean of this stuff is their lives become very integrated like emotionally physically mentally vocationally spiritually the list goes on and on the amount you're talking about fitness I mean the amount of guys who start to take better care of their bodies once they quit watching porn is very very high We're talking about men, but what about women are they having issues with this as well? Definitely 36% of viewers are women Yeah, so I don't I don't know that's a growing number, right? but what about women? Are they having issues with this as well? Definitely. 36% of viewers are women. Wow. Yeah. So I don't know.

And that's a growing number, right? It's had to have increased. Yeah, I mean. Yeah, I don't know. Unless it was under-reported. I don't know what the number would have been like five, 10 years ago. It's higher now though, for sure.

Like it was under 30% at least four or five years ago. Like I've been tracking the data the last few years. I wonder what the reasons are between the two sexes, like if there's different reasons, like why they're seeking it, like maybe women are not getting pursued as much as they were getting pursued before and so then they're going that direction?

Is it? Yeah, yeah, there's, okay, there's, there's similar reasons and there's different reasons. Okay. Okay. The different reasons are men are very visual. So that's why pornography is so addictive. We're just naturally visually stimulated.

Women are a lot more drawn to like a story. Um, like Jordan Peterson would, he would say literary pornography is really appealing to women because of the story and all that kind of stuff. Romance novels like crazy. Yeah. Yeah. That's a little bit of a hard line. It's not like women aren't visually stimulated either.

You know what I mean? Like there's a blend there. Um, so those are like the fundamental differences, but the driver, I personally am convinced after helping so many people and just being exposed to so much of the filth that people experience from pornography, at its core, porn addiction is an intimacy disorder. And I think whether you're a man or a woman, your experience and your wiring for intimacy gets so distorted by pornography that I think it doesn't matter who you are, where you've been from.

I think that's what drives people to watch porn. I think people are lonely. They want to experience connection ultimately and they can't find it in healthy ways. And so they just naturally go to something like pornography and then they come back again and again because of its addictive properties. So let's pretend we're talking to somebody who we're working on this. What are some of the steps and exercises that you're using to help someone like that, right? Yeah. Honestly, the first thing we do is we cultivate a thing we call emotional fitness.

So a lot of people talk about emotional health, emotional intelligence. The premise of emotional fitness is I have an awareness of what's going on within me and I can communicate it to you. And I know it so well that even in the heat of a moment, when I'm tempted or triggered or whatever, I can still keep my ground and keep my nervous system regulated. That's an art. That does not just happen overnight. But when people can develop that skill, that becomes the gateway to all other success drivers in recovery.

The second pillar for us is working through trauma. We would call it like transformation of the heart. So this is where you're exploring child-parent relationships. Those dynamics are literally always at play. Like there isn't one person who doesn't have some issue with a father or mother that's driving their porn behavior, guaranteed. So that's always at play. And we use a specific modality called inner child work.

It's very, very effective with people who have sexual misbehavior. We can get into that. And then I'll mention the third really quick because I'm sure there's more questions here. The third is what we call identity shifting. And this is where you're basically like, you know the old 12 step model, it's like, hey, I'm Sophia, I'm an alcoholic. We don't really subscribe to at least that first step. There's other parts that are great. But my conviction is if you believe that you are an addict, if that's your identity, then you will stay addicted just by faith alone because that's your identity. So why wouldn't you stay addicted? So we try to shift people's identity to a place where they would rather be 100% their true selves

and rejected than 80% their true selves and accepted. So we're trying to build this radical boldness and confidence within guys to just own who they are. All the weird things and all the awesome things. And again, it's a process, but those are like, that's like to me, we've seen other people who are successful. Like it's not like we're the only people doing this. They all have these three pillars in one way or the other. And when you envelop that in community, especially for men,

I mean, women are just naturally way better at forming communities, but when you can give a man a healthy community where he can be vulnerable, he can work through his stuff openly and he can get support and encouragement, man, I mean, that guy will change the world. Now you originally kind of were alluding to like the relationship with the mom, with the son as being like a main driver for porn. Can you get into the details of that a bit more and like what that looks like?

Okay. So without fail, the top five most searched terms on porn sites year over year, somewhere in there is MILF content, always without fail. And there's a reason for it. The things that we watch actually give us clues into our trauma? And that is true. Like, it doesn't really matter who you are, how you slice it. If you pay attention to the kind of content you watch, I guarantee you there's actually clues to your solution in there. Wow.

And so a lot of people try to ignore what triggers them. Like, that's the common thing. It's like, oh crap, I'm triggered, you know, got to like deflect it and defend it and get it away. We actually want to lean into those triggers. We want to figure out why did that trigger you? Cause if we can answer that question really clearly, we can probably really clearly define your solution as well. So with mommy issues, what happens is, you know, guys have this maternal figure

growing up and no mom is perfect. Even the best of moms have their shortcomings and we find ways to cope with those shortcomings. So I will use myself as an example, because this was actually, I was this textbook. So my mom is an amazing woman. She's kind, she's nurturing, she's really, really sweet. She's not a very expressive woman. And so I still remember I was one on one, I was working with a therapist, you know,

I'm like I had been trying to get free for probably three and a half, four years and all of a sudden my relationship with my mom comes up. And I'm kind of like, no, no, my mom's good. Like, you know, I was good with her. He's like, no, I think we need to talk about it. So I'm like, okay, fine, well, you know, let's talk about it. And basically what surfaces is for most of my life, I felt neglected by my mom growing up. I thought that's such a, it's such a strong word because she was always present.

She was always there for me if I ever needed her, whatever. But she just didn't like, she just wasn't super expressive. I perceived it as neglect. So what happens when you have this fundamental need to be seen, to be acknowledged, to be known, and it goes unmet? You have to find another way to meet it. See, if it wasn't a fundamental need, it wouldn't matter. You could just go on with your day. But because it's fundamental, you will find a way to get that need met.

The question is, is it going to be healthy or is it going to be unhealthy? So for me, it was chasing girls and it was pornography. That was how I coached with sort of the lack of maternal affection. And I didn't really think anything of it. It just felt normal until it kind of downward spiraled into this addiction. And now I'm trying to quit and I can't figure it out. And that story is ridiculously common because so many people are watching MILF content

that the numbers don't lie. And a majority of them probably have some mommy issues or some maternal deficiencies from when they were growing up that they ultimately haven't addressed. Maybe they're not even aware of it. But I mean, I would say, I don't have a number on it but I would guess around 50% of our clients were working through mommy issues for sure. And that's probably one of the major turning points.

And I will say in my own recovery, most of it was incremental. It was like you just get 1% better every day and then you look back over three months, six months and you're like, man, I've actually made some serious progress. The day I forgave my mom, it was like night and day. Like I walked out of that office, I was a different person. I felt the difference. And I quit like another three or four months later. It was not long after. So that was like huge for me.

The most interesting part of your story there is that you would have said that I had a great relationship with my mom, which that's probably a key to a lot of men that might be struggling with it is that thing. Oh yeah, no, my mom and I had a great relationship, I'd be fine. It's like, no, maybe there's something else there you don't even realize. Yeah, exactly. And those are the hardest ones actually, those are the hardest clients to work with.

Because if they have a notable trauma or something, then it's a little bit easier to identify and talk about. It's when they're like, no, my relationship's good. Yeah, those are tough nuts to crack. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's common for someone to be like, no, my childhood was okay because when you're a child, it's beneficial to think everything's okay. Yes. Cause those are your caretakers, this person that's like,

I'm dependent on this person. Yeah. I'm probably the problem, they're fine. Yeah. So it's very normal for people to not even realize that there's challenges because this is what you tell yourself when you're a kid. Yeah, 100%. Like, I mean, your sense of there's challenges because this is what you tell yourself when you're a kid. Yeah, 100%.

Like, I mean, your sense of what's normal growing up is just whatever you get exposed to. I mean, I think even people when you, you could grow up in like a drug house or something like that and still your concept of normal is relatively skewed because you just think what you grew up in is normal. So it's one of the hardest things because again, especially when you have high achieving, high performing people, usually they're the most numb.

They're the most numb to what's actually going on in some of these dynamics and how they're driving them. So it takes work. But I would say once you build that emotional fitness, like we were talking about earlier, people start to get aware a lot more quickly after that. Yeah, I didn't realize, I remember years ago, my cousin and I, we grew up in very similar families, we're talking to our wives about, our wives about ways that we were raised and things that happened in the house. And we were laughing about these stories

and the looks on our wives' faces was like, oh, gas, like they did what? Your dad did that, your mom did that? And we'd laugh about it. And then I started realizing, wait, that's not what I'm saying, saying sounds messed up? Oh my God. And then my cousin and I looked at each other, we're like, I didn't realize that that was an issue

because you grew up with it. You think it's totally normal. Yeah, or you have the issues, and you don't, but you don't think they really affect you because you don't think about them anymore. Anytime they come up, you don't feel anything. So that's like classic guy talk. It's like, yeah, I don't really feel anything

when you talk about it, so I think we're fine. I think we're good. Is there a safe amount of consumption of pornography? Is it talk. It's like, yeah, I don't really feel anything when you talk about it. So I think we're fine. You know, I think we're good. Is there a safe amount of consumption of pornography? Is it one of those things like, well, if you do this much, it's a problem. If you just watch it once a week, not an issue. Or do we show that any kind of consumption probably has some kind of negative effects? I mean, based on what I've seen, it's like asking, is there a safe amount of cocaine to snort?

You know, like, I don't know. I think it's just so damaging. And we haven't even talked about what happens behind the screen. Like pornography is severely linked with sex trafficking. The conditions that a lot of these videos are filmed in are pretty nasty. Like you're supporting something that maybe is not everything's cracked out to be. And I think, I don't think there's a healthy amount from what I've seen. And I know people will argue me on that, but I just think if you watch long enough, the

effects just are not worth it. So one of the things that initially got me to look at my own consumption was, I didn't even watch the documentary. The guys brought it up on the show. It was a documentary on Netflix about, was it Pornhub? Yeah. And how they were talking about how many viewers,, how many videos on there, how many people are downloaded. And there were like a few people that worked for

Pornhub that were going through these, making sure that it wasn't someone who was underaged, someone who was in traffic. They didn't have the staff to really, yeah. No, they were claiming every single video is vetted, but it wasn't. No. And there was a story of this young girl who she got filmed being sexually assaulted and it was put on the site. And she couldn't- Multiple times.

Multiple times. That was the first time that I actually for myself was like, I can't support this, this is terrible. They did an expose on it, right? I forget the name of the journalist with the New York Times. He did an expose in 2021, which kind of brought all this stuff to the forefront, right?

Cause then Pornhub like lost their partnership with Visa and MasterCard and there was all this stuff. So part of the exposure was there's so much underage content here. Like how is all this underage content on here and nobody's vetting it. Excuse me. Overnight, overnight, literally, and again, I don't remember the number, but it was over 50% of their content was just removed off the site. So somehow they were able to figure out what it was.

They knew it was there and they could remove it overnight, but they weren't. Oh, wow. That says a lot. Well, the documentary kind of went into that was like part of the big argument in cases like they're they're pretending like it was something that they they couldn't do anything about, but they also recognize that that was the stuff that actually drove the most views. Right. The stuff that went the most viral was the most edgy, illegal type of stuff.

Exactly. Which is why they were kind of playing this like shadow game of like, oh yeah, we'll take it down. And then, oh, it gets populated as a different title or name knowing that it was a viral video. And so it would keep driving the numbers up. Yep, 100%. Yeah, it's crazy.

What's interesting to me is how little we've done or supported any form of regulation just for underage viewing. I don't care who's, any good parent, if I said to you, like, hey, how would you feel if your 12 year old went on a porn site? And they'd be like, no, that would be terrible. But it's as easy as you not watching what they're looking at on their iPad or their phone. That's how fast and easy they could see something and yet we have no anything. Yeah, there are some states now that are passing age verification laws.

Have you guys been hearing about this? Yeah, I think Texas tried, right? Yeah, well, Texas, that was a funny one. There's a couple other ones, like there's Louisiana, Virginia. Is that Florida? I forget. Florida might have done it. Texas did it and then Pornhub got really pissed at them and was like,

fine, we're going to ban our site from Texas. And Texas was like, okay, fine, go ahead. Yeah, like they got into the spat about it. But anyway, the point is they're making some steps in the right direction, but there's always work arounds. But I would like to see more protection of minors. Like, you know what, if you're going to watch porn when you're 18 years old, I mean, you're an adult.

You make your own decisions. Like that's different. But when you're eight years old, you know, that's different. Like I think it's, we have a responsibility as a society to protect our minors. Especially when we know how damaging it is. Well, let's, I mean, this would be a fact. If you're an adult and you show a kid pornography,

you could go to jail for abuse. Yeah, that's right. So we know how wrong it is. Yeah, we don't put any protections in there. No. And a lot of parents, I mean, kids have access to electronics and it's hard. Yeah. And the thing is like, it's a much broader conversation, right? Because this is, it's not just pornography.

It's all the things that lead into pornography. Because porn sites don't advertise on Facebook, right? But what they do is they know that if you're on Facebook or you're on Instagram, you're going to see content that's's gonna rev your engine a little bit. It's gonna get you kind of curious. Maybe you click something here, you click something there, and you sort of start on like a two, and it slowly ramps up until you're on a porn site

at a level five or whatever that is. So it's a big conversation about protecting minors and it definitely from porn sites, but I think even like we need to be thinking about like when are we giving the kids devices and social media use, all that kind of stuff, it all factors in. What do we see on imaging studies of the brain and how pornography affects the brain? I've seen some that show that it's like, it's literally like a drug.

Yeah, it's no different. I mean, the brain on heroin, the brain on pornography, the brain on alcohol, the brain on pornography, like a lot of similarities. There's four major effects on the brain. So the first is what they call sensitization. Sensitization is you see something that's ordinary but it queues cravings for you because you have some sort of dependency on pornography. So it's not even necessarily sexual in nature but it makes you think about the porn that you watch. So that's the first thing.

The second is desensitization, which is basically the opposite effect. And this is where the stuff that you used to watch no longer does it for you. So you need to watch something new or you need to go experience it in person. Desensitization is what drives people to do some really gnarly things.

Like it can lead to some pretty devastating places. And we've seen a lot of lives ruined over the desensitization. The third is poor stress response. So this is a very interesting one. You have a guy who's, you know, he's in his 30s, 40s, established career, he's watching pornography to maybe cope with stress or he's not getting sex at home.

But then what happens is his whole ability to just cope with a screaming kid, a kid who doesn't sleep at night, pressures at work, project deadlines, all this kind of stuff starts to mess with him. And he doesn't realize that watching pornography is actually reducing his ability to mitigate stress. It's actually shown, like it's demonstrated in the brain. And the fourth and maybe the most damaging of all is what they call hypofrontality.

So what separates humans from any other species is our prefrontal cortex. It's the frontal part of the brain and that part literally gets shut down. Like they've noticed that it starts to become gray on brain scans or it'll even start to shrink. It changes form when somebody's watching enough pornography. Hypofrontality. So it reduces the circulation to that part of your brain. And so you start to prioritize quick fixes over the long term. You don't know how to delay gratification.

You can't relate with people. Your executive decision making becomes a lot weaker. fixes over the long term. You don't know how to delay gratification. You can't relate with people. Your executive decision making becomes a lot weaker. I mean, the whole game. From an evolutionary standpoint, this makes perfect sense. If you were exposed to extreme novelty from an evolutionary standpoint, your brain would model itself to take advantage

of as much of that novelty as possible so that you could get your DNA, right, spread your seed or whatever. Yes. So it makes perfect sense. We see that with people with food is they'll eat hyper palatable, hyper processed food and more and more they'll seek it out because their body's

trying to just absorb and collect as many calories as possible because we evolved in calorie, sparse environment. Yeah. So it makes perfect sense that the brain, so essentially it's making you more impulsive. Exactly. And again, it's not making you more impulsive sexually.

It's just making you more impulsive period. Whoa. So finances, relationships, spirituality, like whatever you want, you're going to be impulsive. And like if we were to do a deeper dive on our clients, we haven't done this, although it'd be interesting. But I can guarantee you there's all these subsidiary addictions that they have as well.

Like porn addiction might be the main thing, but there's all these other things where they've developed this kind of compulsivity, whether it's with their money or video games. I was just going to ask you, you probably, with all your experience, can you put together like a list of questions that avoids the porn question, but lets you like, it's like check, check,

check, check. Like, yeah, it's about a 95% chance this guy's addicted to porn too. Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, again, upbringing is always the leading indicator. Like, tell me about your upbringing. The way they describe their upbringing tells you a lot. And we already kind of talked about that. But then, like I said, the video games, the sports, fitness, like, because pornography is so rewarding, people who are naturally reward seekers, those are the people where it's like, yeah, pornography is probably in your life one way or the other.

Yeah. And then the thing that people always say to me, because again, it's a, it's a taboo subject I get, no one's going to come up to me like, you guys quit porn? Dude, I struggle with porn. That's amazing. You know, like no one's doing that. Usually when people say like, oh man, yeah, I used to, I used

to struggle and like, thank God I don't struggle anymore. It's like, yeah. The number of people that say that I say like, oh man, yeah, I used to struggle and thank God I don't struggle anymore. It's like, yeah. The number of people that say that, I'm like. Or I got a friend. You don't struggle anymore? Exactly, yeah. What about people who are neurodivergent or dopamine deficient, whatever you want to call it?

Yeah. I'm ADHD and I know that there's a higher prevalence of people with ADHD who engage in impulsive behaviors, including hypersexuality, et cetera. Yeah. Is that a higher risk factor? Definitely.

Yeah. I've done some collaborations with a PhD in ADHD and she has ADHD herself, fascinating researcher. And she would suggest that the brain is reprioritized when you're neurodivergent, you know, when you have ADHD or whatever it might be. And because of those priorities, they heavily

favor something like pornography. Not because pornography is rewarding, not because it's super, you know, sexually arousing or whatever. Pornography actually can really help you focus. That's the weird thing for the neurodivergent brain. Interesting. And that's all you want when you're neurodivergent, right? You just want to feel like your brain can settle and that you can actually focus. And pornography, again, if it's engaging enough, if it's scintillating enough, it'll do exactly

that. Wow. That's interesting. Are there any triggers that you see for pornography with people? I would assume drugs and alcohol because they reduce your... They might increase impulsivity or bring down your guard. You notice anything like that? Yeah.

Alcohol is definitely a big one for sure. Especially like I'm thinking of like most of the athletes we've worked with, we almost always have to have a conversation with them about alcohol because usually when they make a mistake, whether it's pornography or it's something else, usually alcohol is involved. It's just like you said, it brings down their defenses. I think other common triggers are social media. If we were to break down a lot of the slips and relapses that we've seen people have over the years, social media. If we were to break down a lot of the slips and relapses that we've seen people have over the years, social media is often at play. Cause like I'm not watching porn, but I'm on Instagram.

Uh-oh, this is triggering me to go. Yeah. The explorer page. Yeah, the explorer page for sure. And then even just from the dopamine standpoint, you know, social media is kind of like a level, let's say level, level five is watching pornography. It's like the ultimate dopamine. Watching social media or being on social media rather is kind of like a two to four.

The, the neurobiological basis of addiction, whatever the addiction is, is what's next. That's what they're actually addicted to. It's not the substance. It's not the behavior. They're addicted to what is next. So let's think about this. Okay. If you're on Instagram, what do you do? Scroll. Yeah. You look for what's next. So let's think about this, okay? If you're on Instagram, what do you do?

Scroll. Yeah, you look for what's next, right? Whether it's the feed or it's the stories, you're constantly looking for what's next. So you're starting to rev this engine that is getting excited about what's next. And then eventually you're like, well, social media is not exciting enough,

so you go to pornography or something else like that. So I would say social media is probably the biggest trigger if I'm being honest. And then I would say the other one is just relationship dysfunction. Guys, girls, it doesn't matter when you're experiencing loneliness, disconnection, you have a fight, you have an argument, breakup, whatever. All of those things are incredibly triggering for porn. That's super fascinating for you to share that because I shared on the podcast, I don't

know if you guys remember this, but I was talking about, because I don't, I've never like really battled with pornography. I don't know if it's our generation or what. But I've noticed certain things like this. I talked to the guys one time where I was like, I notice if I'm, I know when it's going to be a night of sex with my wife, just based off of her behaviors leading up. The clues are all there. Like, oh, I'm getting some tonight. And if I'm sitting on the bed waiting for her to finish shower and getting ready and do this with that and decide to get on my phone and just scroll through and not even like looking at like half naked, anything, just being on social media, like just going through cars, whatever stuff I'm into.

It will like almost kill the mood for me. It's a trip and there's a versus just patiently just sitting there and wait. If I just sit there and wait quietly, you know, and just wait, it could be 20 minutes, I am definitely in the, but just getting on my phone is a night and day difference on that. And I've made that connection of like,

oh, if I know my wife wants to tonight, I just put the phone away altogether. Yeah, healthy sexual activity is a good balance between kind of this pursuit and then being relaxed. Like to actually climax, you have to relax. You can't just be like super worked up. And what happens when you do stuff like that, the reason it kills your libido is because you lose the balance. It throws everything off.

You become very like high pursuit, but almost like hyper, you know, like it's too much. Yeah. And then you just, you kind of lose that zone a little bit. So yeah, very common. Yeah, you know, it's funny is one of the characteristics then you just you kind of lose that zone a little bit So yeah, very yeah You know it's funny is that one of the characteristics when I would work with clients who would go on like they would go off Their diet and binge type of deal And I put this together years after years of working with people was that they would be more interested in the bite that was on

Their fork and not the one that was in their mouth so they'd eat and it was like it's not about what I'm an eating It's about the next one. It's always about the next one. Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. And so you look at the data on like binge eating or eating that way and the speed at which people eat is significantly higher when they're in that state because it has nothing to do with what you're actually enjoying.

Yeah. It's about the next thing. Did you guys know people who watch porn are actually more likely to have eating disorders? Makes a lot of sense. Oh wow. I didn't know that. So the actual, I mean, what you just mentioned is interesting.

I feel like they should research that, but the reason that I've seen is body dysmorphia. So you have guys who are watching pornography, they're seeing these guys with immaculate physiques and unrealistic physiques in certain areas. And then all of a sudden they're putting all this pressure on themselves to look a certain way, to feel a certain way, and they don't. And so there's actually a specific study that showed they were more likely to exhibit eating disorder behaviors, binge purging, all that kind of stuff. That's got to be so I could imagine for women, I mean, I imagine the similarities in the

damage it does for men and women, but I would imagine for women the unrealistic expectations, not just of how they should look, but what they need to do, what they're supposed to do, how to satisfy a man. If he says, do this, then I should probably do this. I could imagine a teenage girl or girl in her twenties really becoming distorted on what sex is supposed to be like or what she can say no to or what should be expected. I've actually heard of stories in this, because I've read articles on this, of young women saying,

like, I didn't know I could say no to not having a threesome or not doing this thing because it seems so common. Yeah, yeah. Did you hear Billie Eilish's story? No. Oh, dude, just like mortifying. So she basically, this is on Howard Stern.

So she was talking about how porn was basically sex ed for her. That's how she learned about sex. And when she started having sex, what was normal for her was everything she had seen online, which more or less was BDSM. Because that kind of stuff is very normal now. That's like mainstream. And she had no idea that you could, like you said, she had no idea she could say no. And she had no idea that that wasn't like normal, healthy sex. She just thought this is what you do. And I couldn't say no to it. You know, she was a young girl.

She was a teenager at the time. She said, I didn't know I could say no. Because I just assumed this is what guys want and this is what a girl is supposed to do because that's all she knew. So the pressure on women is exorbitant. You can't imagine. I mean, I think women can't even really articulate

the pressure on them. Not just because, you know, your body's supposed to look this way. You're supposed to do X, Y, Z, but then it's, it's the intensity. It's the narratives. It's that, you know, you're supposed to be turned on right away. It's all the, all the small little implications that porn kind of sends in their messaging that make it really hard. And then it's worse if you're a woman who's addicted to pornography, because

we can kind of understand men being addicted and yes, it's a taboo conversation, but at least people will talk about it, case in point right here. But for women to actually get the help that they need if they're addicted to it, it's really, really tough. I would imagine part of the reason why is, A, it's more common for a man to be addictive, addicted. But two, putting myself, if I were to be,

if I were to put myself in their shoes, they'd probably be afraid to tell somebody they were addicted to pornography because they could be viewed as this hypersexual, oh cool, well then I'm gonna take advantage of you type of, that's a scary place for a woman to be, because they're not as physically strong as man or whatever and there's always that threat.

Yeah, and the biggest lie you believe when you are struggling with something is that you're the only one. Right, that's like the ultimate isolator, and so women believe that all the time as well. And like we talked about, 36% of porn viewers are women, so they're not the only one. But to find places where a woman could actually get help, could be seen through her struggles and challenges and offered, you know, legitimate advice and help, there's not a lot of people out there doing it. I also think that, I'd love your input on this, that just pornography and the sexualization of society in general

has completely distorted the value of that kind of intimacy. I read a study on the show a while ago that the age and relationship status of people who are most satisfied with their sex life are people in their late 50s or early 60s who are married. Now media would have you believe it's like you're 21 or 22, you're having all this wild, crazy sex. These late 50s, 60s old people were talking about it was just me and my husband. We just make love to each other and it's the best ever, which completely flies in the face of what we think to be,

the media tells us is true. And so you grow up believing, oh this is what's supposed to be good, not realizing that, no, no, no, connecting with someone is totally different and better. Yeah. The, I would guess there's two reasons for it. One would be the connections better. So like good emotional connection drives sex life better than anything else.

Of course. That's true of a man or a woman. But the second part of it is that your expectations change, right? Like the first time, like the first time you have sex with your wife, you're coming in with expectations, whatever those expectations are, and they're going to be, your experience is gonna be different

than your expectations. It doesn't matter how good it is, but once your expectations are getting met, that's the definition of satisfaction, right? And so I have to imagine people in their 50s and 60s, they've been married a long time, the expectations are probably getting perfectly met. Yeah, they're in sync. And it's not just 60s, they've been married a long time. The expectations are probably getting perfectly met. Yeah, they're in sync.

And it's not just because they've been doing it for a long time, it's probably because they've had conversations about it. And you know, the partner knows what the other person likes and doesn't like and all that kind of stuff. And now it's like, it's just there, it just happens naturally. There's a harmony that wouldn't be there earlier

in a relationship. And I think anytime you take a natural signal and you separate it away from the other things that it used to mean, for example, um, getting food meant I had to work for it, I had to find it and then it nourished my body. Now it's like, just taste, just taste, just taste. Yeah. We know what that's led to.

Yeah. Sex used to mean you find someone that's willing to participate. You do it together, potentially have a child, it's a totally new purpose, new meaning. We've completely separated all of that. Now it's a pleasure, but now it's not even pleasure for the other person, it's for myself. That's a total distortion from how it's supposed to be.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it all comes down to the breakdown of the family unit. Like I don't think we have the same value for family that we used to. You know, people think that having a family is burdensome or optional. I think it's a responsibility, you know, like, and to me personally, I feel like I've done a lot. You know, I've had like great academic achievements, great athletic achievements, you know,

been able to grow a business and all that kind of stuff. There's no better, no better achievement I've had than growing a family. It's the best. But I think as soon as you no longer have a value for a family, then why would you have a value for, you know, a healthy sex life that's founded on emotional relationship, emotional connection? Why would you think about long-term and longevity or having one partner? Why would you think about those things if there's no concept of family and building something together that's going to last multi-generations? Yeah, yeah. Jordan Peterson made an incredible point once where he talked about if you're just sleeping

with a bunch of people, for example, that's the definition of psychopathy where you're using them, but you can't use someone else without simultaneously using yourself. So it's this very damaging thing that we don't realize. Yeah, it's fast food intimacy, right? So it temporarily satisfies the craving, but it ultimately leaves you hungrier. And if you take in enough of it, you're going to get out of shape, whether it's physically, emotionally, sexually,

or otherwise. Or spiritually. What is the success rate that you're finding with the people that you're working with, and what is the success rate generally for people who are trying to just complete? Because I'm imagining- What does that timeline look like?

Yeah, I imagine people aren't coming to you and saying, hey, I just want to reduce my consumption. They're probably like, no, I want to stop. Yes. Is that like a low success rate, high success rate? What does that look like? Okay, so let's make a distinction between sobriety and freedom.

Okay, sobriety is I've gone 60 days without watching pornography. Sobriety is the've gone 60 days without watching pornography. Sobriety is the street counting, it's white knuckling, it's sort of the I went without the behavior. Freedom is of the heart. Freedom is I'm a different person. Freedom is I wake up and I'm not afraid of relapsing today. Freedom is I don't know how long it's been because I don't really care. Like it's a completely different mindset. Our clients, we have about 70% success rate of our clients getting sobriety within about four months.

So they usually when a client finishes with us after four months, they're at least two months sober. The longevity part of it, that takes more time. It takes probably anywhere from 18 months to about four or five years to actually experience real freedom. And we just haven't been long enough for me to say here's our exact number. But I mean, we get stories all the time. We just got a story of a guy. He's actually a missionary in Uganda, kind of a random one, but he's got six kids. He was about to lose everything basically over porn addiction. And he just messaged us back. He was sober for two months. He had hit that mark. And then I think it's been 11 months now,

and he's just like, yeah, my sex life is better. My life is night and day. The way I'm able to minister to these people, like everything's better. He's under a lot of stress. So we get a lot of stories like that right now. We haven't done any metrics on it yet, but we look for certain clues.

There's certain clues that would basically lead, okay, this person's probably in the right direction. Number one is they're plugged into a community, so they're not doing this thing alone. And that's the biggest mistake that men make. Men figure, I'm going to do this on my own, and then I'm going to have a sick-ass story about how I conquered porn addiction on my own.

And we all love the self-made story. We all love it. Like, every guy has done that before. It just doesn't really work that way. When you're alone, the odds are stacked tremendously in your favor. The other two things are number one, you have to get underneath the surface. You have to get into those internal things we were talking about earlier. And then the third thing, you guys would know this, you guys are all personal trainers.

So when you have an expert guiding you, your rate of success is much higher, not just to achieve success, but to maintain it long term. Because a good personal trainer doesn't just help you cross the line, they actually teach you how to cross the line on your own so that you can carry it on yourself, by yourself rather later. And that's what a good personal trainer doesn't just help you cross the line. They actually teach you how to cross the line on your own. So then you can carry it on yourself by yourself rather later. And that's what a good guide does. You know, it's very similar to the pathway. I think we talk about with and I like this, the idea of like sobriety versus freedom. Totally.

With dieting. Yes. And one of the things that we, so Katrina and I were talking about this before you came in, because she knew you were coming in today. And we were talking about like our own relationship with like utilizing porn porn, so that neither one of us have had that addiction. Yeah. And one of the things that we were talking about was, well, what are some of the reasons

why we think that we've been successful in this? And she's like, well, I go, I have this connection with you that even if I were to go use porn, it doesn't even come close to that. And it reminds me of the dieting, like when you teach a client to attach to all the things that the healthy eating is, besides just the weight loss or whatever with that, it makes it much easier. Is that the same thing? Like when somebody who has figured this out gets freedom, they start to realize like,

oh my God, the real thing is so much more important. And is that something you guys teach in that process? Because this is what we teach a client with the freedom with food is like, stop looking at it just like you're going to lose weight on the scale. Like look at all the other things that it makes your life so much better. Yeah. So the reason my company exists is I believe that if you change the man, you change the world. And so for us, when it comes to quitting pornography, it's not really about quitting porn. It's about becoming the person that you change the world. And so for us, when it comes to quitting pornography, it's not really about quitting

porn. It's about becoming the person that you were made to be because there's a society that's begging for it. Maybe a wife that's begging for it, kids that are begging for it that need you to show up and be the best version of yourself you can be. And when quitting pornography becomes more about that, the healthy relationships, leading your family better, producing better at work, that's when things really start to shift. And that's when a changed man can then go out and change the world.

So it's 100% true. You have to have that vision and the price of not having that vision in your life has to be more significant than the price you're paying to keep porn in it. And once that equilibrium shifts, that's when people will do radical things to change their life. And it's really beautiful. It's so identical to nutrition. That's exactly what happened to me.

Exactly. I had tried, you know, I tried, you know, abstinence from it, tried back and forth, I'd fail, fail, fail. Yeah. And it wasn't until I was trying to be a better person versus not do this thing that it clicked. And it was probably to be a better person for someone, someone you love or people that you care about. Well, for me, it was more of a spiritual journey.

So yeah, and that really, it actually changed a lot of my behaviors and it became free. So it wasn't like you said white knuckling, we're like, ooh, avoid it, avoid it, avoid it. It was like, I actually don't want him. I really don't want him. I don't want him. It's not a threat to you, right? No.

And that, and that's the beauty of a transformational process is you actually change so that's something that once was a threat to you or scared to you no longer is. I wanted to comment on the thing you said about connection with your wife, Katrina. Yeah.

So there's a British journalist named Johan Hari and he had a viral Ted talk like nine, 10 years ago about addiction. And it was, it was all about rat park. Did you guys ever watch that? Sound familiar? Is this the one where they're, they years ago about addiction and it was all about Rat Park. Did you guys ever watch that? Sound familiar? Is this the one where they're putting a,

and like the way they look at addiction with rats, where they put them in like jail? Yeah, they put them in like the two bottles, right? One's got cocaine, laced water, one's regular water. Of course they get addicted to cocaine. Then they put the rats in like what they call Rat Park, which has all these toys. It's still got the same two bottles, right?

The water and the cocaine laced water. But they're not super-dressed out. Yeah, they're not dressed out, they can have sex with other rats, all that kind of stuff, and so they don't get addicted to cocaine. And basically, the summation of the findings was the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. And so, that connection piece becomes really, really valuable for fighting addiction, but then keeping it off and having that bigger vision. And so, I love that you said it's your spiritual life, so your connection with God.

Yes. And dude, that's like, I mean, for me, that was everything as well. That was, like I said, I committed my life to Christ and that was the reason I wanted to quit. It's a great driving force, but you have to learn what it means to actually connect spiritually. You can't just have a religious practice that says, well, I'm religious now, I don't want to porn. You know, that's no better than white-knuckling at our internet filters. It has to be, I wanna actually foster a meaningful connection in my life,

become a better person, and I know that to do those things, I'm gonna have to leave porn behind. I imagine that has to be kind of part of the curriculum for somebody that doesn't have a significant other but struggles with this. They have to find that connection with something else like outside of themselves so they're so self-centric.

Big time. Well, marriage is a magnifier, right? So if you have issues now before you're married, they're gonna be bigger issues on the other side. Absolutely, especially if you have a good wife. Yeah. She'll let you know. Yeah, that's right, which is counterintuitive actually.

A lot of single guys think when I'm married, I'll be having sex regularly so I won't need to watch porn. And that would be true if watching porn was actually about your sexual needs, but it's not. The reason people watch porn is about, like we said, comfort, connection. It's things that are fundamental and vital. So sure, the first six months you're married,

you may not watch porn, but then what happens when you get into your first fight? Right? What happens when your wife says no? Then what are you gonna do? How are you gonna handle that? Well, the way you were handling before was pornography, so why would it be any different now?

So for guys who are single, yeah, it's a huge part of it. You have to find something bigger than yourself. And I personally would recommend you get in touch with your future self. Think about your future self. Because if you can start to plug into the person you want to be one day, that'll make you think whether or not you want to keep pornography around.

Because if it's around now, it's going to be around later and it'll cause more issues later on. It seems like it's got so much. This reminds me of like our, our journey of helping people with nutrition. And one of the things that we learned over our career was like, instead of telling people they can't or don't is to try and insert things into their life or things to focus on instead. Yeah.

Is it similar like that? Like, I feel like that would be something else to be successful. Instead of telling you like, Oh, do not watch. It's like, Hey, instead, when you have that urge, maybe try and do this thing that creates this connection or better. Oh dude. Or outside for a walk or something. Yeah. Yeah. It could be simple things like that. I mean, usually it's connected to like vision or

purpose. Like they did this multivariate analysis of people who are struggling with porn. Multivariate analysis just means they try to see, okay, we'll isolate all these things and we'll see which one of these impacts somebody's porn consumption the most or which one's the most correlated. And they found that meaninglessness rose to the top above everything else. So when people felt empty, no sense of purpose, that's when they were more likely to consume pornography. So the natural antidote then is when we're working with people, we're saying like, let's

get like, what excites you? You know, what are the things that you feel like you're good at? Like just trying to change the narrative and cast some vision for what their life could be like, that goes a really, really long way. And the beautiful thing is it can change. So, you know, we've had guys who they'll come to us and their wife is really upset with them thinking about leaving and they'll come to us and just say, I need to get my marriage back and we'll say, okay, let's get your marriage back on track.

We know that's not the best reason in the world to quit pornography, but if that's what's motivating you right now, we'll do it. We'll start there. Yeah. But then four months in, it's like, okay, I got this under wraps, it's not perfect, but things are going in the right direction, my wife is at least thinking about trusting me again.

Now we need to revision. We need to cast a new vision so that you can continue to stay motivated to keep that success going in the right direction. Because otherwise, if it's just like, I need to accomplish this, you accomplish the thing, and then you don't have any reason. It's like the Michael Phelps who accomplishes everything

you can imagine at the Olympics, and then now he's depressed because he's got nothing to live for. Or it's like the weight loss goal. Somebody comes in, they just want to lose 15 pounds, we lose the 50 pounds, okay, what keeps you eating good going forward? Exactly, Exactly. And I think the more, the more internally focused

it becomes and relationally centric, the more powerful it is. Like I know for me and my fitness journey, the reason I actually like want to be in shape and have a sick physique is for my grandkids. Like I want to be able to play with my grandkids one day. So that requires like a really long future. That's like delaying gratification a ton.

Totally. It's just super motivating for me. I just get obsessed with like this multi-generational impact kind of stuff, legacy, all that. I love it. So for me, that motivates me. Another client is going to be like, man, that's stupid. That's like, that's 40 years away, you know, but for me, it motivates me. So it works.

That's also brilliant though, because it is so far away. Yeah, exactly. So you have this long term goal that's going to define a lot of your short term. I imagine that meaninglessness is probably correlated with every addiction. Not just pornography. It's got to all be the same. So, interesting. Yeah, it's meaninglessness and the pain of meaninglessness often as well. Pornography is an excellent medicator of pain or discomfort, anguish, whatever it is you might be experiencing. So yeah yeah, that meaninglessness is, it's a really painful thing

and we have to find something to cope with it. When you started this business, because you said, how long have you had it now? Five years. Okay, five, you said it over how many people? Over 10,000. Okay, did you even, did you think there would be as much of a demand? No, I mean, when I started, everybody was like, oh man, that's cool. Like, I got a lot of the like, you know when people wish you good luck,

but they think you're going to fail? Yeah, like I got tons of, when I started, everybody was like, oh man, that's cool. Like, I got a lot of the like, you know when people wish you good luck, but they think you're going to fail? Yeah. Like, I got tons of that when I started. But I was really convinced that people were out there and needed it, but the first two years were pretty lonely. I'm not going to lie. You know, like you're kind of knocking on doors

trying to see if anyone will talk to you about it. And it's there, but not really. So like getting the message out early was hard. Then like, I don't know, two years ago, three years ago, Jordan Peterson's talking about it. Dr. Andrew Huberman's talking about it, all of a sudden like these voices are emerging and now it's like, okay, now we're off to the races. So like the last two or three years, you know, like, I mean, the book has like flown off the shelves like crazy and a lot more people coming through the program that are not just like morally convicted, even though I think that should

be part of it, but people who are just like, man, this is ruining my life. I need to get it back on track. Do you think there's a cultural shift? Is that what's happening to you? Yeah. Yeah, I think porn is kind of like the modern day cigarette. You know, like everybody thought it was cool at first, doctors were endorsing it, and then all of a sudden it was like,

wow, this thing actually causes cancer. You know, and I don't think we're there yet. I think it's going to take longer to get there. But I do think things are shifting. My guess is probably in the next two to four years, you'll see a dramatic shift where it's going to take longer to get there, but I do think things are shifting. My guess is probably in the next two to four years, you'll see a dramatic shift where it's now, it's like a majority will say porn is actually bad for you and I'm trying to get off of it or I'm trying to avoid it.

Well, so I first started seeing like inklings that there was a culture shift because you would see these young men create these. The nofap. Yeah, like, oh, yeah. Nofap November. Nofap November or hey, I'm going to avoid porn for a while because, you know, I got, you knowap? Yeah, like, oh, no fap November. No fap November or hey, I'm gonna avoid porn for a while because, you know, I got, you know, and I'm like, these are young men saying this. They're figuring out themselves.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the younger generation is a lot smarter to their credit. I mean, they, I think they realize how destructive it is and I think, you know, it's so relationally toxic that I think that's what's awakening people. It's like, man, this is ruining relationships. This is causing divorces. This is causing sexual dysfunction. Like the list goes on. So I think people are waking up to it. And I think we just need some more voices. That's why I'm actually really grateful you guys had me on,

you know, because I think a lot of people aren't willing to have this conversation. Because it is still taboo. It is still a little bit private and individual. But it needs to happen because more people need to be set free. Now, I know you can't share personal stories, It's still a little bit private and individual, but it needs to happen because more people need to be set free. Now, I know you can't share personal stories, but what are some examples without names of like some of the craziest situations

you've had to help somebody through? Okay, so we had one guy, this guy's like late 60s, and he's been addicted to porn for most of his life. So that would have been like magazines, VHS, DVD, like he went through like the whole technological progression. Yeah, yeah. So... Peep shows.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So in his words, he basically had an affair every opportunity that he got. So, and he's been married for four decades. So when he came to us, he had just got caught. By the way, for people who are married and you're watching porn, there's only two ways it ends. You either confess or you get caught. Most people don't realize that.

So he got caught. His wife is like not sure if she wants to stick around. You know, they've been together for 40 years. And when we started talking to him, we're like, okay, well, why do you watch pornography? He's like, I don't know. You know, I just watch because I watch. I'm a dude. I got desired. We're like, no, no, but why, you know, like, what were you feeling or what was going on?

He was so numb to his inner life. He like hadn't felt a feeling, I got desired. We're like, no, no, but why, you know, like, what were you feeling or what was going on? That he was so numb to his inner life. He like hadn't felt a feeling in like 40 years. So we really worked on that. We really worked on like, okay, let's, let's teach you how to be vulnerable. Like, let's teach you how to just share transparently about what's going on. And this dude just ran with it. So like the one day he comes to a coaching call, he's like, man, I was talking to my mother-in-law last week about like all these feelings I was feeling.

We're like, what are you talking about? You weren't supposed to do that. You know what I mean? That's awesome. But he just really embraced being vulnerable, learning to articulate his inner life. And he got sober very, very quickly. And part of that was because his marriage was on the line, his kids were kind of in the know about it.

There were some pretty messy family dynamics, but this dude just embraced the message of like, okay, nothing to hide. I'm going to be transparent even with my own mother-in-law. And like it was the glint in his eyes that was different where it was just like, he is a new person and like his wife decided to stay with him. His kids have all forgiven him. Like it's just a really beautiful story of like, man, this guy turned things around. Wild that you could go 40 years into marriage and have that going on and like it just, yeah, just now surface.

Like that's great. Some people are really good at hiding. Yeah. Yeah. But you would think though that would even bleed into their intimacy and their- Probably did. Yeah. Like there's no wife who's like, oh, I had no idea. Like usually the wife is like,

yeah, something felt kind of off. Either in the, it's either in the emotional intimacy or the sexual intimacy where they're like, something didn't feel right. How quickly does, are you able to rewire the brain when you go off pornography? Cause obviously you get desensitized and you need more novelty, more novelty. We know that. Yeah. When you go off, how quickly does it start to reverse?

So within about 21 days, you will see the brain start to change. We know that. Yeah. When you go off, how quickly does it start to reverse? So within about 21 days, you will see the brain start to change. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So the first 21 days can be really difficult. Guys will get like a lot of wet dreams. They'll be triggered a lot more often. Like your body tries to do everything it can to basically get back to the normal cadence that it was accustomed to.

If you can break past the 21 days, the next marker is 63 days and 63 days is where new habits can start to actually take root. And at about the 90 day mark, once you're about three months in, again, your brain hasn't fully changed. I would say it probably takes anywhere from 18 to, you know, 48 months for that to happen. But at about 90 days, your brain is in a very different state and some of that hy-frontality starts to dissipate,

some of the quick fix, short-term kind of rewards, those things all start to rewire pretty quickly. Awesome, awesome. So let's talk more about the benefits you've seen with your clients, besides quitting porn. Like what are they noticing? So, I mean, we worked with an athlete, this guy was a professional basketball player.

And his big thing was kind of like he had this identity that was all wrapped in performance. Very typical of a high-achieving person, right? It's like, I am what I do. And if I don't do things well, then I'm invaluable. So, those people often have the most dramatic shifts because when you can learn that you are still just as valuable, even though you might screw up or you might make mistakes or you have shortcomings, and you can be seen with those shortcomings, what happens is people start to take more risks in life. So this guy started a business, you know, he's making a bunch of money, so he started his own businesses, he started to invest. The one thing that's really fun for us is we see people start to have kids. So a lot of there's a lot of wannabe fathers who aren't ready for that stage of life

because they don't feel like they're worthy and they want to be a role model to their kids. They want to be exemplary, which is totally noble. Or sometimes the wife is like or the mother, the future mother is like, hey, I'm not ready to have a kid with you if you still have this in your life. So that's one of our favorites. I'll give you a really cool story. So there's a there's a, there's actually a study that would suggest porn addiction when coupled with masturbation can actually cause infertility. Um, and it's, it's a really alarming study. Do you want me to go into it first? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. How does that even work? It's a fascinating study. Okay. So basically what they found is this was when in young men, men who viewed porn were more likely to experience infertility,

specifically low sperm count and poor semen quality. So those are like the two markers of infertility. Right. Okay. These men all had three things in common. Number one is they got exposed at a young age. Young age was under the age of 12, which is like every dude. They were high frequency viewers.

Okay. The researchers deemed if you watched twice a week, you were a high frequency viewer. That's twice a week is high frequency. Yeah, that's a really low threshold. I think I would say most young men are way more than that. Way more, like probably twice a day. Right, right. And then the third was that they coupled

porn consumption with masturbation. So if you had those three things in place, chances of infertility were higher. So we had a client come to us, this is probably about two years ago now. So he comes to us and he basically says, hey, man, this is probably about two years ago now. So he comes to us and he basically says, hey man, this is like my last chance. Like my wife is basically saying we're ready to have kids, but she doesn't want us in the marriage. So like I've tried everything,

this has to get sorted out. So he does our program, he half asses our program. Okay, so after four months, he's kind of like, he's doing okay and his wife has seen enough progress but I know he still needs more work. There's more work to be done. So we're like, we're on his case a little bit. We're like, hey, stick with us. We'll help you a little bit further. In the meantime, they start trying for kids. So they find out after like a year of trying that they're infertile. They can't have kids. They're devastated. Sorry, I said this is too, this must have been three years ago. So anyways, they find out they can't have kids. So they start going through IVF and all this sort of stuff and they do a couple

rounds unsuccessful. So they're so devastated that this guy goes back to pornography. The wife is in disarray. The marriage is a mess and they don't even know if they're going to make it. And when he comes back to us, we're like, hey, are you ready to actually quit? Because I think we can help you. I had just found out about the study. So I was like, I think there might be more going on here. I didn't want to give him false hope because it's just one study, but I was like, let's see what we can do.

So he commits, he quits porn. And again, you can just tell it's just different when someone's actually quit. Like he's really committed to this process. And he reaches a point emotionally where he's ready to start doing another round of IVF and when you start IVF, the woman has to take a pregnancy test just to make sure that she's not pregnant. Right. She takes the test and she's pregnant.

Wow. They got pregnant naturally. So cool. And, um, and the story doesn't end there because they actually, they actually lost the kid and it was really devastating. And I talked earlier about the importance of emotional fitness. It's the first pillar we teach, which is that you have to learn how to manage your emotions

even when times are tough. Because anyone can manage their emotions when everything's perfect. But how often are your conditions in life perfect? Almost never. So if stress is triggering for you, you have to learn how to manage yourself even when things are stressful.

The really cool thing was he went through this totally debilitating experience. They were devastated. They lost this like miracle baby of theirs. And he stayed clean through all of it. He protected like his freedom and his sobriety. The marriage stayed intact. And then about eight months later, they got pregnant. They just did their gender reveal on the weekend. Oh great. And those kinds of stories are like incredible.

Wow, that's awesome. Because that's like a whole lineage that literally would not have existed had he not quit pornography. By the way, it makes sense that it would reduce fertility because the hyper novelty, frequent ejaculation, your body's like, oh, so many chances we can produce less sperm.

We don't need to place that much effort into, you know, seeming quality, which is why when you go for fertility, they'll tell the husband or get pregnant, they'll say, don't masturbate two or three days or four days before you try and have a baby. Yeah. Well, and it should be longer than that because there's research showing now that frequent ejaculation, like if you're masturbating regularly, daily, close to that, you actually reduce your testosterone levels. Yeah. And- Well, you don't need the driver.

Yeah, exactly. You're getting access. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And ejaculation in particular increases prolactin, which is an inhibitor of testosterone. Yeah. So it has all kinds of devastating effects on the male hormone profile and all that kind of stuff. You know what I love about this kind of stuff, by the way, in sports and in fitness and whatever, you have this wisdom that science will often laugh at until it gets proven.

That's right. And fighters have for you forever been told, that's right. You got a fight coming up, no sex, no, no masturbation, no monkey business. Yeah. Yes. And it makes sense if it were to raise your testosterone, raise your drive. Makes perfect sense. Yeah.

Athletes have been told this for years, for decades. Exactly. And the other part of it is for focus, right? Cause like you're, they're trying to get as dialed in as they can before a big fight. And the focus part of it is actually massive. And that's another thing, like when guys do quit pornography, brain fog clears. Like that's a really, really common one. And we're very brain fogged these days between all the devices and everything.

So I don't know if this is a naive question, but you said in the study when they connected masturbation with pornography, is it common or is it a thing where people watch pornography and don't masturbate? I don't think it's common. I'm sure it's a thing, but I imagine they're mostly coupled. Just in it for the story? The literary part is just fantastic. Yeah. The acting is so good. Well, you said that that was the third thing. I know. I'm like, when is it not?

And I'm like, wait a second, is there a lot of people watching porn and not masturbating? Cause I feel like that would be the whole point of it. I think for that study, they had to articulate that and make a distinction. Okay. Probably because the masturbation is what's, what specifically would cause some of those infertility

effects. And they probably, they probably controlled masturbation to masturbation plus pornography. I believe so. Yeah. So the extreme novelty combined with the frequent ejaculation probably would send a signal to brain. The theory would be, Hey, tons of novelty. You don't need to, in fact, there's studies that

show that the more attractive, uh, that a primate is the less sperm they produce because, uh, they're let, they're, they're going to have more opportunities to have. I don't know if you've seen those studies on chimpanzees. I've heard a little bit of it, yeah. So interesting stuff.

Well, I appreciate you coming on. I mean, I personally selfishly wanted to seek an expert out on this because of my experience. I, you know, it was something that I was like, I gotta stop, it's big deal, it was kind of hard. And then through my spiritual journey, I just, I didn't want to anymore. And then I noticed all these other incredible benefits,

which I'm a, you know, I can get very obsessed with something. So I went down the rabbit hole of looking at data and studies and I was shocked and alarmed that it wasn't more mainstream on you hear, oh, it's bad. It's this, it's that. I'm like, I'm looking at the data, what it is

the brain, how to influence his behavior, its effect on divorce and relationships and behaviors. And it's not, it's not only not good, it's really, really bad. So I'm glad you're here. And you said you're at six months? Maybe longer, that's the thing I don't remember. That's good, there you go, yeah.

That's really good. Once you hit like a year, year and a half, you'll probably notice another like, wow, you know, like my vitality is a lot higher. Awesome. Yeah, sense of purpose, meaning in life, all that stuff starts to take off. All right, well, hey man, thanks for coming on the show.

Very cool. Thanks for having me, guys. I really appreciate it. That's a real treat. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Super Bundle includes maps andabolic, maps performance, and maps aesthetic.

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