Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 664: Jason Phillips

Starting point is 00:00:00 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. So Jason Phillips impressed me. Yeah, he really impressed me. I was really excited to introduce him to you guys. Yeah, really smart dude, really cool guy, but really smart. Very knowledgeable of nutrition, I was very impressed.

Starting point is 00:00:25 Super connected in fitness too, right? Like he's worked with some of the best of the best. Yeah. And lots of different arenas, CrossFit and bodybuilding. It's so refreshing to see a guy that has built a business around the CrossFit community and been a part of it, trained CrossFit for a very long time, has had tons of podium athletes and teams involved with CrossFit, but yet still will express some of the pitfalls that come with it. And it's just so refreshing to hear somebody like that,

Starting point is 00:00:56 because I feel like so many of these guys that have attached their business to CrossFit, defend it to its death. No, it's this, it's just like, no, it's this it's i'd just like no white kid it's okay that you like it you do it you're a critic right but then also see all all the problems that that could come from it also right is always gonna be a cause of the fact that's the right mentality like his business he's really addressing a lot of individual needs you know coaching wise that i feel like that's a big monster to tackle and he seems to be doing a

Starting point is 00:01:23 good job tackling all man i i really hope that we and I know we're working on this with him is working a way out to partner up in a way with with what he's doing over there nutritionally because we just we don't have any desire to get into the one-on-one coaching world or you know nutritionally giving advice to individuals which is what he has been building for a long time now and has been very successful on it. So, he has, and if you haven't heard of him, get ready, because you're gonna be hearing a lot of this guy. He's about to blow up in a big way. Like again, very smart dude, very connected.

Starting point is 00:01:57 We're impressed by a lot of people we meet, but this guy really impressed us to the point where he came to record a podcast with us, and we wanted to do videos with him as well. So we did some YouTube videos that are causing a lot of taking off, man, they're doing well. They're causing a lot of controversy.

Starting point is 00:02:13 Me and him talk a lot about IIF, we am in the videos we talk about paleo for CrossFit and a few other things, adrenal fatigue or HP access dysfunction. So in this episode, you get to hear about Jason Phillips, you get to hear about his business, you get to hear about nutrition, and his experience coaching thousands of people

Starting point is 00:02:32 through nutrition. It's a great episode. You're gonna enjoy it in a crossfit, we get in the dieting with, crossfit, we get in all that stuff. All of it, yeah, great episode. You can find them on Instagram at Jason Phillips underscore, IN3.

Starting point is 00:02:44 You can find his website I and three nutrition.com He's got a great blog on there as well. So without any further ado, here we are talking to Jason Phillips. Dude, so super excited to have you in the place right now and we were just talking off air that's we wanted to get on the mics as soon as we could

Starting point is 00:03:01 because we always do this where we meet somebody for the first time and we blow our wad, right? We start talking about all the great conversations and everybody goes like, oh man, I wish it would have hurt that. It's like messy. We really didn't fuck around much with Jay. I mean, he's only been in here for about five minutes. We lit the mics up right away so you guys could listen to all of us get to know each other

Starting point is 00:03:19 for the first time because we have a lot of mutual friends. We do. Yeah, I didn't realize that Josiah is your workout partner, your mentor and Cody boom boom right now. So we got a lot of same circle, they're Jay's, Jay's a good buddy. How long do you and Jay go back? Jay and I go back earlier this year really?

Starting point is 00:03:37 So, Baderos and Craig connected us. Okay, Craig Valentine. Craig Valentine. And so I feel like they're the connectors of the universe. Those two guys know everybody. In fitness, right? In fitness. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:03:49 I don't think we've met them yet. They don't know us. No, I do. You guys need to meet them. Really? Yeah. What is your, you know, I want to be the hot person. I wanted to tell to somebody who actually knows Badger's pretty well.

Starting point is 00:03:57 There's been around him. What's your thoughts on him? I think that a lot of people would be surprised how reserved he is. So like you look at his media and you probably think he's like out there and extravagant and like then you're around him and he's the most soft spoken, like humble dude. Oh wow.

Starting point is 00:04:11 Yeah, like you'd probably think that he's the person that takes the center of the room all the time and very few words are spoken. So I've found this out with a lot of these characters that have this loud, crazy, fun personality on YouTube or on their Instagram or with that, then you meet them in person. Lots of them are different. So, have you guys seen the YouTube ads with Billie Jean?

Starting point is 00:04:31 No. Like the big black guy that's been into like marketing and it's like Billie Jean is marketing. No, I haven't seen that. Just look up his shit because it's so outrageous. And he does this like skit worries the wolf of Wall Street, but he's like the wolf of marketing or something. But it's really well produced. And so you look at him and you're like this motherfucker must

Starting point is 00:04:47 be crazy. Everybody I know that's met him says he doesn't say a word until it's like his turn and then it's switch was flipped and there he goes. And he's like he's in character. We just have these these young guys in here the other day and yeah these YouTube celebrity yeah Conor Murphy's like 20 years old. He's got like two million people following him on YouTube. And if you look at his YouTube, his whole, he's built it off of this like, you know, he skits that he does.

Starting point is 00:05:14 He basically walks up to random girls. He's in charisma. Yeah, he takes his shirt off. And he's ridiculously handsome. He's shredded and he's got this crazy outgoing personality where he just walks up to random girls and ask them stuff and then he ends up kissing them and he videos all of it. Super introvert.

Starting point is 00:05:29 Yeah, in real life. No shit. He doesn't make eye contact. Like, he even says it. He's like, I'm an introvert. Yes. Yes, says he would never do that with the rules. I wonder if being on camera or knowing you're about

Starting point is 00:05:39 to, you know, present yourself like an act. Well, I wonder if it gives you permission. If it almost gives people permission to be something else. You know what I'm saying? I think that's what it is. I think that's because I'm relatively introverted. If you met me out, like you'd be like,

Starting point is 00:05:53 like I never talks, but you know, get me on a podcast, get me on stage, I'll go for days. Like I think it's, it is, it's that permission that you need to just go and to drop whatever's in your head. But man, like I, I for the longest time didn't want to fucking be in front of anybody. I hated public speaking.

Starting point is 00:06:09 And now I'm like, get me on any stage I can be. Wow. Well, tell us your story. So how did you get into all of this? Like, man, it's a, it's a crazy fucked up story. So I feel like there's so many people that are listening that have at least heard it one time. So I'll try to, I'll try to spin it a little bit differently.

Starting point is 00:06:23 I got into fitness differently than most people, right? So I was 18, 19 years old. I was an athlete. We'll use that super loosely. I was playing golf. John Daly is like, hey, I was making a comeback. Hey, bro, my most challenging sport I've ever fucking done. It is the hardest thing in the world. The most frustrating thing in the world. But, um, but I was But I was pretty good. I was nationally ranked and had college scholarship offers, took one local to my house because of a girl, shocker, 18 year old hormones, right? Thinking clearly. Yeah, thinking perfectly.

Starting point is 00:06:58 And yeah, so stayed close to the house, but right after school tore my labor room and I have no idea how I just went in the gym one day, I got pinned under 95 pound bench and couldn't move. I was like, yeah, that's probably bad. It was really the first time I'd ever lifted, like my golf coach was trying to get me in straight conditioning. I was a skinny kid.

Starting point is 00:07:17 And in that process, like got in the gym to do rehab at the same time got approached by Avacromy to do modeling and was like, how the fuck do I look like these guys? Because they were like, you gotta show us your abs, like, you know, when you come out for your photo shoot, make sure your abs are on point. Like, I'm fucking have abs, dude. Like, I'm a golfer. I eat cheeseburgers, right? Like, I literally, every day after high school, went to Taco Bell, KFC, and like, like, Taco Bell, KFC, like it was a, they were joint venture and there was like a meal that I would get. Same thing, like tacos,

Starting point is 00:07:48 chicken fingers, potato wedges. Clearly it was impactful in my life because I remember it. Right. Right. And so, you know, I started doing all this research, like, how do I get abs? Like, do I do a lot of cardio and my, my pediatrician at the time was like, read, read all the fitness magazines because it's all diet. And I'm like, okay, great. Like, here I am, like mac and cheese and checking fingers. And now I'm supposed to eat salads. Like, great. So I read all these articles. It's like, don't eat this, don't eat that, don't eat this. And really there was this giant list of shit that I couldn't eat, but no education is to what I should be eating. Before I knew it, like a meal to me, dude, was two rice cakes. The guy I remember

Starting point is 00:08:25 I was working at Best Buy, my lunch was two rice cakes. Oh, man. And, supermodel diet. Right? It was some kind of diet. It was the killer testosterone level diet. Yeah, event. So, but it really developed full-blown anorexia. Oh, you did. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:08:41 Like, was full-blown anorexia, was two days away. Oh, okay. Well, you don't hear that a lot from me. Yeah. No, like was full blown in an electric was two days away. Okay, well, you don't hear that a lot from you man. No, not at all. And what a crazy story for that to happen. How, I mean, at what point do you do know this? Like obviously you're talking about it now, like looking back. So I was two days away from my mom and my doctor having an intervention. So like, my pediatrician invited me to go work out with him at the gym on like a Tuesday.

Starting point is 00:09:04 And like afterwards there was a, there was like a hot tub or something there. So my pediatrician invited me to go work out with him at the gym on a Tuesday. And afterwards there was a hot tub or something there. He was like, oh, it's good for recovery, just come hang out. And he could tell with me, I was almost embarrassed to take my shirt off, dude. Mine gym was 118 pounds, like 5'9, 118. It's skinny as a rail. And he was clearly could tell something was wrong with me. So they know, so they were, they were two days away and then I met a trainer at my men. You're 19 right here?

Starting point is 00:09:30 Let me get started. 19, okay. So at this point, you have no idea that this is a, you're having issue with food. No, like to me, it was normal, dude. And like if I told you stories, dude, it was, it was fucked. Like I would have dinner with my family. I would, I mean, it would be healthy. It'd be like chicken, rice, green beans.

Starting point is 00:09:45 And I would like, almost beat myself up for actually eating food. I would go straight to my room and I would do crunches. Thinking like, oh, I just put fat in my body because I ate food. Can't work the soft-cannon food. Now where you was? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Starting point is 00:09:57 That was the enemy. Did you have this personality where you're like, I have a goal, I'm gonna attain it no matter, whatever costs, and was that what you applied towards diet? And do you think that led to it or was it more of a control thing where you felt things? It was a control thing because I definitely was not a hard worker growing up.

Starting point is 00:10:12 I was probably the easiest kid in the man. So yeah, which is really ironic because now I think I credit, this is a really fucked up thing to say. So I hope nobody takes us out of context, but like I went through that period of time and you learned so much discipline, like you're focused so much on one endeavor,

Starting point is 00:10:27 I think that's why I'm successful in business today. Is like I learned how to block out all the noise and just to like, my opically focus on one thing. That's not a crazy thing to say. I think the most successful people can take challenging situations and take the positive from it. Like this is what I got out of it. Not that it was a positive situation,

Starting point is 00:10:48 but it's made to be more or not. Yeah, because I would never want anyone, like I would not wish that on my worst enemy. It was the end, to be honest, it's a nervous system disorder, right? Like, I would be remiss to say that I don't still have anybody image things going on in my life today at 33

Starting point is 00:11:03 and somebody that leads education around You know nutrition and implementation. Do you think going through that made you a better communicator to Clients 100% I think actually I would argue a lot of the reason for my success is the empathy I have for the relationships that clients have with food especially as a male to have gone through that Not a lot of men have gone through that or I just want to talk about I was gonna say I won't say that not a lot of men have not a lot of men talk about it So yes, okay, because I've been so open about it I have a lot of men in the fitness industry names that you might be surprised about that have come up to me And have opened up about it and then like shit dude. I went through that shit

Starting point is 00:11:40 Well, you know what now that you say that I believe this we've, and we talk about this in the show all the time, like, you know, there's some of these Instagram celebrities that are 3% body fat, like fucking year round. It will. That's not a whole another thing, right? We get into, like, because I'm sure we're gonna talk about diet, but at some point, right?

Starting point is 00:11:58 Those backloaded images. That's so fucking up. Well, by all means. And are they really 3% year round or are they showing you pictures that are talking like a three month span? Right, right. That's a real thing, too. No, both those, I and are they really three percent year round or are they showing you pictures? Right, it's like a three month span right right right. That's a real thing too. No, both those I think are big things. I think you've either got one the guy who actually really does to that way and is actually Technically unhealthy and then you have the other ones that are faking it that they're doing well men men

Starting point is 00:12:16 We we tend to ask for help at a much lower rate than women because we're conditioned to think that it's weak We're pussy's or whatever if we ask for help or we just don conditioned to think that it's weak, we're pussy's or whatever if we ask for help, or we just don't even know that that's an option. I don't think it's an option. Or it's a problem, especially if you're suffering from something that's been labeled a female disorder like anorexia. Now if you say bigorexia, you might have more guys stand out and be like, oh yeah, I've stuffed my face with all this food and I took all these weight gainers.

Starting point is 00:12:43 I'm just not what I did, right? I had a needing weight gainers. I'm just not what I did, right? I had anything to sort of as well. Wasn't anorexia, it was the opposite where I would stuff my face to try and gain weight. Doesn't make it any different, but I could definitely see how it would be difficult for a man to come out and say, hey, I've got this disorder that female models talk about having. Well, it's really interesting because I think that for me coming out of the disorder, I don't ever think I looked in the mirror and said I'm anorexic, right?

Starting point is 00:13:06 And so at the time when I when I created the recovery I My hormones were fucked like I literally at 2 p.m. Every day. I could not stay awake Like if you paid me to stay awake, I couldn't do it. Just cortisol resistance cortisol was fucked testosterone was fucked Everything was bad, right? And so the only job I could get that I could hold was opening up Gold's Gym from 5am to 11am. Cause I'd wake up right, cortisol through the roof, like, or, you know, just enough energy, like looking back on it now, cortisol was probably really low,

Starting point is 00:13:33 but I had just enough adrenaline to go on. And so I was opening the Gym 5 to 11, one of the trainers saw what I was doing to myself. She's like, you never fucking eat. And so this bodybuilder would come in every day like around four o'clock and I'd be like, I wanna look like him. And you know, he was leaning,

Starting point is 00:13:50 he was getting ready for his contest, he was getting ready for like, nationals or something. And she's like, well, she's like, I do his diet and I do his training. And I was like, can you do that for me? Cause that's what I wanna look like. And she's like, yeah, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:14:01 You gotta go home and you gotta eat 4,000 calories. And you're all, I literally, no, I didn't fucking question it. Like, that's the fucked up part. I was like, seriously? And she's like, yeah, you had one that, wow. I went zero to a hundred real quick. Oh shit. And so this is before my fitness pal and all that shit.

Starting point is 00:14:18 And I went to Barnes and Noble that night, bought a calorie counting book, rode out a 4,000 calorie meal plan and followed that shit for like the next three weeks. And I looked in the mirror and I wasn't fat. And I'm like, holy fuck, this food thing's not so bad. And so I don't ever, like now I look back and I'm like, well, yeah, I was anorexia.

Starting point is 00:14:38 And my parents, you know, I was anorexic. My parents told me, yeah, you were anorexic, but at the time I didn't have the awareness. Okay, so the total disconnect, complete disconnect. Complete disconnect. To be able to do it. You have to, for the listeners to comprehend this, for somebody to go from not eating anything,

Starting point is 00:14:54 to then eating 4,000 calories overnight, is robotic, it's disconnect, I'll do it. It's, yeah, it's literally action without any emotion. Like there is no emotional attachment to it. So, but... Well, so you start doing that. So I started doing that. That was super impactful in my life, right?

Starting point is 00:15:13 Obviously, I was a business major at school because I feel like that's what everybody does coming out of school. And I was like, okay, I found something I care about. I found something that I'm super passionate about. And this shit saved my life because I was an a downward spiral man. I was depressed. I had body image issues. I didn't, I mean, I had a, I was gonna tell the story.

Starting point is 00:15:30 There was this girl that I had chased in high school. All of a sudden she wanted to date me and I pushed her away, because I had such bad self image, self worth. And so I transferred to Florida State and majored in extra science with a concentration and fitness nutrition And I said to myself I'm like from this day forward. I'm gonna pay it forward and I've been coaching people literally ever since Oh, wow, cool. Now this is a this is a very this is a great story first off because you tell it

Starting point is 00:15:57 Obviously it's coming from the heart is very honest, but also because objectively speaking If somebody were to look at you, the average person, they see this fit, good looking dude, you are a model. And for you to say, I suffer from these things, I think it's very powerful because it helps communicate to people that it has almost nothing to do with how you actually look.

Starting point is 00:16:19 There is no objectivity there. Were you able to look at yourself objectively at all during this period time? Not once. And I look back on pictures now, I'm like, that's not how I perceive myself. Isn't that crazy? But I would argue people that don't have

Starting point is 00:16:34 full-blown eating disorders still have somebody that's morphia, it runs rampant. And I think it's all due. I think we all do. I think we all do. And coaches in every thousand of our life, because it's not just diet, right? Like we all label the diet industry to be like,

Starting point is 00:16:48 if I have a cheat meal, I fuck it up. Well, you spend an extra hundred dollars outside of your budget. Did you completely fuck your budget? Like, yeah, it's off of what you anticipated, but you don't think the end of the world of it. Yet if you eat an extra hundred calories, all of a sudden the world's gonna end.

Starting point is 00:17:02 So did you start actually- We started actually- We enjoyed the food. Like as you start actually? We had a guy picture of some of the food. Enjoy the food. Like as you went through the 4,000 calorie process. So there was still fear and there was still trepidation. And I tell the story of my book, right? And so then I went, like when I went to Florida State, I was like, okay, great, I can eat a lot of food.

Starting point is 00:17:21 I'm not gonna gain fat. I can be quote unquote normal. And, but then all of a sudden, my buddies are eating like Chipotle and they're eating pizza and I'm like, well fuck, like, that's bad food, right? I was still labeling food as bad because I didn't have any education really and I'm like, that's terrible. Like, what's gonna happen if I eat Chipotle?

Starting point is 00:17:37 I'm gonna wake up fat tomorrow. And so I avoided it, I avoided it. And finally, like, three months into being at school, I was in a situation where I had to eat the Chipotle, right? Like it was either looked like a fucking weirdo and like starve myself or just bite the bull and eat it. And so I did and I swore up and down, like it's like vivid in my memory.

Starting point is 00:17:54 I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and be fat and woke up, first thing looks in the mirror, abs are still there. And it was like, it was this trust building process, right? And so I had to do it with Chipotle, I had to do it with pizza, I had to do it with, pretty much every food man. And so there was definitely a connection there,

Starting point is 00:18:12 but it was like a trust building process. It's interesting. I remember distinctly for myself, there was a moment where I was over a friend's house and we were doing push-ups and stuff and I had my shirt off, and there were two mirrors, and one would reflect off the other mirror, and so I caught a glimpse of myself off of the back mirror,

Starting point is 00:18:32 so it was from an angle that I never see myself from. And in that moment, I was able, because I didn't recognize myself in an instant, I was able to objectively see myself in an instant. It was a very surreal moment for me, because most people will never get to that. You know, it's very difficult to separate self-image from body image.

Starting point is 00:18:52 We identify so much with our body that that's what we think we are, and we would do it with our thoughts. We do it with a lot of things, but especially our body that, for that instant, when I was able to see this body that I for real quick wasn't able to identify his mind so I could objectively look at it. And all of a sudden I said, oh shit, I muscular, which I had never thought before.

Starting point is 00:19:12 I had never thought that before. It was a very strange feeling. So everything you're saying is totally resonating, is making tons and tons of sense. So you didn't have a disorder at that time. So think about it with somebody who already perceives really shitty things about themselves. And then flip the script on that.

Starting point is 00:19:28 And it's like, well, what if you see yourself in that a very objective point of view? And it's like, there's a little bit of fat on the oblique, which inevitably we're all gonna have with less or like contest lean. Like, holy fuck, now you're fat, right? Now all of a sudden the thoughts they run rampant in your head. And like, that was a vicious cycle, dude.

Starting point is 00:19:46 It was pretty, it was a nugly time. So after college, did you go like into the virtual world and start coaching online? Did you do a lot of one-on-ones? Did you go work for like a chain? Like how do you... So back in college, I got the golf bug again. And I was like, man, I'm gonna walk on Florida State.

Starting point is 00:20:03 They were powerhouse in like the golf space. And they were like, no, we don't do walk-ons. And I'm like, all right, man, I'm gonna walk on for the day. They were powerhouse in like the golf space and they were like, no, we don't do walk-ons. I'm like, all right, fine, I'm gonna turn pro. And so I got like, I'm a game back together. I was good enough, I turned pro. I actually spent a year and a half on like the mini tours, like Hooter's Tour. Had a little success or yeah, right?

Starting point is 00:20:21 Like, you would think it was pretty good. There you go. It was a quick way to go broke to be completely out. It was a lot of hot wings. Yeah, a lot of wings, a lot of travel, a lot of wasted money. But, you know, looking back on it, I was like 22. It was a quick way to grow up. And, you know, when you got to live on the road

Starting point is 00:20:39 by yourself at 22, you grow up pretty quick. And so I did that. And looking back on it now, that was a pretty defining moment for me because I kept choosing fitness over golf. Where is muscular as you are now? So right now, right now I'm like 190. Back then I was probably like 170.

Starting point is 00:20:57 But you got to think right at 5, 9, 170, they were like, oh, this guy's fucking Ronnie Coleman. I know, because he's not typical right? He's CLE's golfers, they're not real like. No, they're not fucking Ronnie Coleman. I know, because he's not typical right. He's see how he's golfers. They're not real like, he's physique, you know, driven. No, which ironically now you're starting to, you're starting to see more of it. But back then it was unheard of.

Starting point is 00:21:15 And I kind of chose fitness over golf. And like I remember, you know, tournaments, people would be out practicing on the range, three and four in the afternoon. I'm like, fuck, I gotta go to the gym. I gotta go to Chester, which like no golfer should ever do Chester. Right? Like, it's the worst thing.

Starting point is 00:21:29 You get the most restrictive thing for your swing, but I'm like, I gotta have a good chest. And like, so some of the eating disorder, it wasn't eating disorder as a body image disorder. It was kicking back in. I'm like, man, I can't look like a golfer. I gotta look the way I wanna look. And so, probably contributed to me sucking and ultimately losing all my money. So I did that, kind of bounced around, and went out to LA, did the trainer thing out there.

Starting point is 00:21:51 Do you remember the show The Workout on Bravo? Yeah, it was good. So I went out there for season three. Were you on the show? Oh, dude, I'll tell you good story. Oh, my God. All right, so I was literally, my golf career was coming to a close.

Starting point is 00:22:05 I'm like laying on my futon in my apartment in Orlando, and I see the workout come on. I'm like, those guys fucking suck. I'm like, I'm a better trainer than that. I should be on that fucking show. Pretty much everyone on TV. Isn't that the cast? It wasn't great play for that cast? Was it okay? I'll tell you, yeah, I ended up hooking up with Greg a little bit later. So I call them and I'm like,

Starting point is 00:22:29 and this is like, this is my M O dude, like and this is like, I tell the story, one, because it's really funny, but two, like people that listen, take fucking action, like if you really want something, go fucking get it. Right. So I call them and I'm like, hey, I feel like I should work at your gym,

Starting point is 00:22:44 like are you as hiring? And they were like, hey, I feel like I should work at your gym. Like, are you as hiring? And they were like, you need me. Yeah, like, I will come make your gym better. They were like, whatever, like send us a resume. So I send the resume and I don't know if it was like the pro athlete thing or something, but something caught their eye. And they were like, oh, like, this is really cool. And so I got on the phone with them and they interview me and he's like, cool, like,

Starting point is 00:23:04 I'll talk to you Monday. We'll talk about what it looks like coming out to the gym and when you move here, you've got a job. Cause I bullshit it. I'm like, yeah, I'm definitely moving to LA. I had no fucking clue when I was gonna move. How is gonna move? But I'm like, this will be rad.

Starting point is 00:23:17 And so I call him Monday and I'm like, is so and so, there was a dude and they were like, no, he doesn't work here anymore. And I had just gotten done for 48 hours telling the world that I was moving to LA. We're like at this fucking gym, that's like on TV show. Right, like telling my mom, I was super pumped

Starting point is 00:23:32 and they were like, yeah, he doesn't work here. And I'm like, oh, well, no worries. Like, you know, he told me I was working there. So I'm gonna, when should I come out? And they were like, oh no, like, we're putting a freeze on that. Like, we're not hiring. And I'm Like we're not hiring and I'm like, oh fuck, I'm like, no, you don't understand.

Starting point is 00:23:49 Like, you know, and I was like, at this point I'm like, what the fuck do I do? So I'm like, no, you don't get it. Like, you know, it was all good. Like, I get it, like you won't hire anyone else, but I need to come out there. And they're like, no, like, you know, I'm sorry. Like, we have some internal shit and I'm like,

Starting point is 00:24:01 fuck, so, like, how do you hack that, right? So I, this is back in the days of my space, right? And so, I go on my space, I find Brian Peeler. He was like one of, he was like the bald head guy from North Carolina. And I'm like, came in. I'm gonna be in LA next week and I'm training for a bodybuilding show, which I wasn't.

Starting point is 00:24:21 And I was like, need you to work, need you to train me and kick my ass because I'm running low on energy. And he was like, all right, it's 350 bucks. And I'm like, great, done. So book a flight, a fly out there. The whole purpose of me being an L.A. for 48 hours is to go in and train with him for an hour.

Starting point is 00:24:38 Wow. Go in, start working out. I didn't even give a fuck what we were doing. But I was like, for 60 minutes, I talked about why I should be working there. I walked out even give a fuck what we were doing. But I was like, for 60 minutes, I talked about why I should be working there. I walked out of the gym with a job. Yes!

Starting point is 00:24:49 And so, so awesome. So I left there, right? Got my job, moved my shut out to LA. It actually offered me a spot on season three, but the contracts were miserable. Like there was a statement in the contract, we can take your words out of context. Oh, wow. And I'm like, that would be like me saying,

Starting point is 00:25:07 like so and so is a dick, and then they'd just like take another statement where I said, Jackie is a, and they like put the two together. Jackie's a dick. Yeah. No motherfucker, those are two completely different statements, but they've heard horror stories of shit like that.

Starting point is 00:25:20 Oh dude, they wanted like, they wanted residuals on like any money that you made, like it was bad. They wanted like, they wanted to give on like any money that you made like it was bad They wanted like they wanted to give you like thousands of months to look at those bad But it was cool to be around the environment Greg Plitt came out You know he was around not very much to be honest and it was so staged It was all dude. It was so bad. I didn't sign an indicator so I can talk anything Shed some light on that shit.

Starting point is 00:25:45 I just remember the main girl was just hooking up with all the straight girls. And it never happened. Like what, it happened. Like they hooked up, but she never turned her. Like they hooked up, but it wasn't like a, it wasn't a thing, right? Like it just, it happened like once

Starting point is 00:25:59 and they built this whole story like. Wow, she is a cougar. Wow. How much of it was bullshit? Like, and how much are these guys? Everything. Really? I literally walk in one time and there's a camera on,

Starting point is 00:26:10 and Greg is, he's standing in a doorway looking into an office, and they're filming him from the office. So it's like he's talking to somebody in the office. There's nobody in the office. And then there was something one day where he took his shirt off, filming a client, there was something one day where he took his shirt off, like, filming a client, and there was no cameras around.

Starting point is 00:26:27 And the producers were like, oh, that's really good. You do that again? And so, like, they went back out and like, we're getting back to it. Yeah. So, so how long were you there? And then, yeah, it worked. So I was there for, like, I was there for like a year,

Starting point is 00:26:40 you know, realized, hey, it's hard to really make enough money in LA. And so then I, like, I bounced around, man. I took a corporate gig in DC. I opened up my own business, more Lando. I actually went back out to LA. And then it kind of came full circle. I trained a bunch of guys in the PJ tour.

Starting point is 00:26:54 Why, why all the place, why all Lando DC? What, what's with the dude? You'll, you'll find like, I just fucking love to travel. Like, I just feel like I'm a little bit nomadic. And, I mean, I could give you all the places. Like I had a corporate gig in DC, like it was a, like have you heard of the chain of export out of Chicago?

Starting point is 00:27:10 Expo, it sounds familiar. Sounds very familiar. They're big, so yeah, anyone in Chicago knows who export is, right? And so they opened up a DC office and so I ran their PTU department. That's what got me to DC. Okay.

Starting point is 00:27:21 My sister happens to be the executive assistant to the owner of all of export. Oh shit. So that's how I got hooked up there. So what keeps, okay, now that's a good, not made a DC. My sister happens to be the executive assistant to the owner of all of X-Worth. Oh shit. So that's how I got hooked up there. So what keeps, okay, now that's a good, little probably story right there is that you have a connection like that

Starting point is 00:27:32 and yet you're still not involved in it. What, why not? It involved with X-Worth? Yeah. Oh, dude, it's corporate, right? Like, so I went in the very first month there. I like, I sold more training in a pre-sale than they had ever had sold in the whole month,

Starting point is 00:27:47 and they're like, oh, let's work you up the corporate ladder. Like, let's take you to Long Island, and I'm like, ah, this just isn't, it wasn't fulfilling, man. It was like, it was sales, it wasn't interpersonal connection. And now that I'm in a position where I can look back on my life and be like, why did all this shit happen to me? I realized nothing was ever personal enough,

Starting point is 00:28:03 nothing ever had enough impact. And I live like a million, you know, you and I were messing yesterday. And like one of the things you said to me was like clearly I've had an impact on people's lives. Like that statement meant more to me than you'll probably ever know. Because I live so much to create impact. And so like looking back, all these things happened and I moved on beyond all of them because I wasn't having the ability to create impact the way I wanted to. Who created an impact for you? Man, I look back. Obviously the trainer that got me out of Anorexia,

Starting point is 00:28:35 I don't know as though, it sounds super cliche, like my parents, right? Because now that I'm old enough and I understand finance and all this shit, I realize how poor we were growing up and I realize how I had every opportunity at the rich kids out. And like my parents strapped themselves to give me a fucking good life

Starting point is 00:28:58 and to give me the opportunities I potentially needed to succeed. And I think that inherently that was built into me to where I will sacrifice every ounce of my being for the people around me. Do you remember when you put that together? Like when you, because rarely ever as a kid as you're going through that, do you put that together?

Starting point is 00:29:18 No, I wasn't. Yeah, well, normally. Right, we're normally selfish. We normally think the world revolves around us. Our parents have all these. I need, I need. And then you look back now, like was there a pivotal moment for you where you realize like, Holy fuck,

Starting point is 00:29:29 I didn't realize that my parents really didn't have all that and they really did fucking sacrifice everything. I think it was the first time that, you know, like when, like going out of college, like my mom, you know, she's like, get a credit card, I'll pay it, right? And I remember getting to the point where I looked at the credit card statement

Starting point is 00:29:43 and I'm like, you're making minimum payments. Like something's off here, right? And then to the point where I looked at the credit card statement, and I'm like, you're making minimum payments. Like, something's off here, right? And then to the point where one day she was like, hey, I can't pay your credit card bill. Like, can you pay it? And I was like, I started, like, the wheel started spinning. I'm like, oh, something's weird here. Like, you never told me no. And then I just started, like, I think I started looking deeper into things than I ever have.

Starting point is 00:30:04 But there's not one pivotal moment where I'm like, that was it, like that did it. I have a pivotal moment where that I attribute to my success today. We, Pedro calls it my Thanksgiving miracle. So we've all heard the Christmas miracle, right? So three years ago, this past Thanksgiving, I was broker, then you could ever imagine. Woke up, it's not a word broker, more broke. We'll go with it, right? Like I said it, and I was like, I'm very herbal.

Starting point is 00:30:34 I just sounded really bad. I used to like, tronical in a way, exactly. We just made words up here. So I woke up, I was on a ski vacation, and I woke up in the morning, and I looked in my bank account, and I was over-traum. And like Thanksgiving day, checks don't clear, like can't deposit money,

Starting point is 00:30:51 like nobody could bail me out of this. And mind you, I have the longest running streak with getting Starbucks, then I think any person in the world might have. And so I had to go get my morning in Americano, like it was non-negotiable, like how to do it. So not only could I not afford that, but I couldn't afford the Thanksgiving dinner I was

Starting point is 00:31:06 supposed to be buying for my girlfriend and I that night. I'm like, fuck what do I do? So we're in the grocery store that morning and I happened to look in my bank account again for whatever reason, like Thanksgiving miracle, a $500 check cleared, and I had money in my account. And like I literally remember like how fucking shitty I felt that I couldn't afford something and I was like never again.

Starting point is 00:31:28 And I knew that success was a function of value, went home and just was like, whatever I have to do to serve this world, I'm gonna do it. And anyone that knows me knows I'm not short on work. So at the peak of my coaching career before I scaled and brought in other coaches, I worked with 167 clients. Cool.

Starting point is 00:31:48 And anyone that knows, these are one on one dude. Oh my god. And so everyone that works with me gets a 20 to 30-manifold call every 10 to 12 days. And I was literally taking calls 20 hours a day. I bet. I had to, right?

Starting point is 00:32:03 But it was, I have a very hard time, if someone sends me an email, and they're like, I need help. I know that there's not that many places out there that are giving the level of help that I feel like you deserve, right? Like you guys would agree. Like there's some decent resources out there,

Starting point is 00:32:17 but a lot of internet coaches are taking your money. No, yeah. And I'm like, no, like that's not what we're doing. So I can't see you go to those people. I'm gonna work with you. I'll find a way to get in my schedule. I'll sleep an extra half hour or half hour less. And then I was like, I gotta scale.

Starting point is 00:32:34 And that was like the genesis of our business. Talk about the challenge that a lot of people have a hard time scaling from that. It's one thing to build a six figure business for yourself. And then it's another thing to build yourself a company or a business where you have an ultimate employees. What was that like? I'm massively thankful for my first employee because if she hadn't done a good job, I'm

Starting point is 00:32:56 not sure the business would be where it is. She was Project X. If she fucked up, I may not have had the trust to bring in other coaches. I brought her in, I was like, how can I really teach somebody the skill set they need to be a good coach? And I think that number one, I've done a good job identifying people with enough empathy to be good coaches. And so people are like, how do you hire?

Starting point is 00:33:17 I hire good people. I don't hire skill sets. I hire people. So she was a good person. I taught her the skill set of nutrition coaching. And of course, maybe in the control freak I am, I oversaw everything for 90 days. I'm like, I want to see all the prescriptions going out, all the communication, all the results coming in blah, blah, blah. She crushed it. And so then I brought in another one, same process. And we've been fortunate enough

Starting point is 00:33:41 to do it. Now, I've never given up a client to another coach. So for me to go from 167 and today I coach personally 50 to 60 people, which is still a lot. And both of those standards, but to me that's nothing, right? I was on calls for three hours before I came over here this morning and then I'll go sit in the airport for another five hours and do it. But that's like normal day for me. That's my wife, she'll be like,

Starting point is 00:34:03 he's always on the fucking phone. But that was how we did it, but that's like normal day for me. That's my wife. She'll be like, he's always on the fucking phone. But that was that was how we did it, man. It was a it was a massive trusting for me. Well, how do you find balance? My wife and my kids. So I became Instadad earlier this year. My wife had three kids before before we got together. And so I became a stepdad to three kids. Do you talk about how old are they? 11, nine and six. Talk about that transition, because I'm divorced and I have a girlfriend now that lives with me and my kids half time.

Starting point is 00:34:34 And I could only appreciate that challenge of moving into like you had no kids and now you got three. So there's a lot of challenges. But there's a lot of reward too, man. It's really cool to see a kid very happy. I've always found my gratification and making other people happy, back to high school years.

Starting point is 00:34:55 Having the girlfriend that you buy a gift for and she's super excited, right? I always thought that was the coolest thing in the world, not because I was gonna get laid, but because it was just cool. It was genuinely awesome. I've always wanted to be that kid that coolest thing in the world, not because I was gonna get laid, but because it was just cool. It was genuinely awesome. Like I've always wanted to, I've always wanted to be that kid

Starting point is 00:35:08 that bought their parents a house, bought their parents a car, right? And, you know, I can say that I've paid some mortgage payments for my parents and that we've helped out with their cars. And so that's super cool to me. Seeing my kids light up or seeing the step kids light up, like when we do things for them, it's priceless, dude.

Starting point is 00:35:23 So it's given me another level of work ethic that I didn't even know was within me, and that's scary for a lot of people, because I'm a hustler. But there's balances, right? So over the summer, when I wrote our education platform, I wrote our level one manual. The most time-intensive thing I've ever done. Like I would wake up in the morning, and fortunately, they like to sleep in. So I'd be up at five, I would write till like nine or 10, they would all wake up, I'd spend the day with them. And so I was basically like five to 10, non-negotiable, it's my writing time.

Starting point is 00:35:52 Now I'm sitting there back in school. I gotta get their asses out of bed at 6'30, right? They don't fucking leave the house until 7'30, so I'm like making breakfast, making sure their shoes are on, jackets are on, like fucking Oregon, you know how that goes, right? Like, and so we get them out, then we come home, the 11 year old, he goes on the bus to go to middle school, so I got to get him out the door at eight o'clock, and then it's like,

Starting point is 00:36:11 all right, well I got to go work out at 8.30. Because if I wait till the afternoon, I'll just be exhausted and I won't get it done. So I've lost like my morning like creative time, realistically, right? And I've had to find another time, and that's just in the past, like it was, I never would have lost that. So things like that, you quickly learn that you've never come first, you know, you, you do family dinner, guess who eats first, right? Guess who's plates get made first, right? The kids plates always get made first. And it's like little dictators in the house. They totally all like, like,, like we make, we make, we make chicken, right? And like it'll, like my wife will bake it and marinate it and,

Starting point is 00:36:49 I'll look at it and I'll be like, I need 10 ounces to hit my macros. And I'm like, I am how much they're taking. I'm like, if you take more than that, I'll fucking kill you. Take my fork and just scan it over. Take that piece. But I'm like, I need 10 ounces or like, you know, and then of course, like if they take more, I can't get mad, I gotta go, all right.. But I'm like, I need 10 ounces or like, you know, and then of course, if they take more, I can't get mad, I gotta go, all right.

Starting point is 00:37:07 No, I gotta fill in like an extra two ounces. Where do I get 16? Dan gets the biggest piece, right? That's the rule of the- No, my kids are, because my girlfriend would make this big like a labrit dinner, and then my daughter will look at and be like, I don't like this. You know, my son, and my son will like eat it,

Starting point is 00:37:22 but like, play with his brutal. Okay, I can eat, I'm like, you ready? Yeah, and I'm like, looking at her, like don't take a person like this, kids. Yeah, you're like son and my son will like eat it, but like Plot is no good. Okay. I can eat him like You really yeah, and I'm like looking at her like don't take a person like this kids like kids are kids Yeah kids are just a little dictated. Yeah, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about your your nutrition philosophy or kind of the cornerstone Like what separates your Philosophy or your your companies philosophy with nutrition how you approach it versus other people So I tried to I tried to narrow that down and I continue to think about it.

Starting point is 00:37:47 I think it's gonna be an evolving thought process for me. You know, it's very cliche to be like, well, we customize, right? That's not new. I think that for me, like what it comes down to is the implementation. I think that there's so much knowledge out there. I think realistically,

Starting point is 00:38:03 any person listening to this could go to the internet, Google, and Find every answer they need. But it's how do you fit that into your lifestyle? How do you how do you do it with a date night? How do you do it with? Well, I want to drink beers on Sunday for football. How do you like how does all this auto all the pieces fit together? That's where we've excelled. We've taken individuals that don't have a knowledge We give them the knowledge, and we also provide the implementation. And the support,

Starting point is 00:38:29 because inevitably you're gonna fuck up. You know, inevitably you're not gonna be motivated. And inevitably you're gonna get injured or you're gonna travel or you're gonna have a business meeting. How do you handle that shit? We are the 24-7 on-demand coaching service. We've basically built a concierge service, right?

Starting point is 00:38:46 Where I've got athletes, they'll go to lunch, and they'll be like, text doesn't mean me a picture. Here's a screenshot of the menu, what do I get? And it's like, well, I mean, every macros I don't really wanna just find something to fit your macros. That's not what they wanna hear. They want me to help them guide them through. So I'm gonna ask a couple questions,

Starting point is 00:39:03 we're gonna figure out what they'd normally eat, right? And we're gonna figure put you in earlier. Would you eat yesterday? With that little accountability piece, dude, that text message, being there in that one moment, it took me what, five seconds in my day, that moves them forward on a level that they never would have moved forward on. Who's more challenging to coach a professional athlete? Because I know you're talking about MMA fighters

Starting point is 00:39:23 and versus like your average person. Well, MMA fighters probably the easiest person because they're coming to me in a camp and they know that if they miss weight like there's a pretty significant financial penalty, right? They're gonna lose half their purse. So they will eat dog shit if I told them to eat dog shit. I mean the final week before a fight is never fun, but they suffer, they're used to it. So I wouldn't say that they're hard. Pro athletes are, they like to rely on their talent. You know, I think the difference,

Starting point is 00:39:50 like I just started working with a guy in the NBA, won't say who, but, you know, he came to me. He's really successful, made a lot of money last year. He's like, I want that like, love bra, tight money. And he's like, I know the difference is dotting my eyes, crossing my teeth. Super successful, but you know, you could get somebody that's like, like my pro golfers on the PJ tour. They're like, whatever, I swing golf club.

Starting point is 00:40:12 Getting them to be compliant is relatively hard. Your average, so I'd say it's 50-50, man. Like you've got the same issues with pro athletes that you do with regular people. Yeah, and as far as sustainability, do you find like a stark difference with that the same issues with pro athletes that you do with regular people. Yeah, and as far as sustainability, do you find a stark difference with athletes versus, you know, just coaching your average person? Trying to think, because I think that inevitably I could tell you,

Starting point is 00:40:38 I could give you the really good examples of pro athletes, and I could give you the really shit ones, and then I could give you the really good examples of regular people, and the really shit ones. And I think can give you the really good examples of regular people and the really shit ones. And I think that there's always this line of demarcation where people are complacent or they're not. And it's the same with pro athletes, right? And so you'll get, you know how it is,

Starting point is 00:40:54 you see the regular people that become successful and they're like, this macro thing is easy. I could do it on my own. And then they leave you and then they come back three months later and they're like, okay, I didn't know as much as I thought I knew. It's the same with an app. Any any CrossFit athletes that you deal with at all or anybody? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So talk

Starting point is 00:41:10 about that with that. Yeah. So I mean, I've last year, I think I had 12 people at the games. Okay. Maybe more. That is probably the single hardest one. And why? Because CrossFitters have this thing where they think CrossFit should be all about looking good. And as we all know to achieve low levels of body fat, you need to be in a somewhat of a deficit, right? sacrifice some performance, which will sacrifice performance, which at the levels of crossfit and the levels of exercise are doing now. So we're looking now at intensity, but we're looking at intensity at volume, right?

Starting point is 00:41:45 Intensity at high volumes is going to fuck your hormones up, undoubtedly. So now you've got, and there's a really controversial statement out there, I won't say who said it, but everybody will recognize it, that people should get to a low level of body fat before they become competitive. I think that statement's bullshit. I think that's actually the root problem of most of the crossfit issues that come to me. So I get people coming to me all the time. Well, I'm only eating 1200 calories while I'm not losing weight. So that statement in its absolute form, right? If you told a woman, let's say she's 150 pounds, she might have a better chance at high volume gymnastics at 135 pounds, undoubtedly she needs to lose some weight.

Starting point is 00:42:26 If you tell her that two weeks before the open, right, and she's only eating 1600 calories, and tell her, well, you need to be lighter for your gymnastics. What is she gonna do? Compromise her strength and everything. She's gonna eat less calories. She's already in too much of a deficit, right?

Starting point is 00:42:40 We know that. But in her head, she's gonna be like, well, fuck, I'm gonna eat less calories. I'm gonna eat 1200 calories. Now it's going to happen. You're going to suck shit worse. You're going to make your hormone profile worse. You're going to exacerbate all the underlying issues.

Starting point is 00:42:53 So then by the time that you do get to me come June, you're in a pretty bad place. Might take me a year to fix you before we can really get back into things. How do you back people out? Because we talk about this on the show all the time. And it's somewhat controversial, although it's becoming more accepted now,

Starting point is 00:43:09 where we'll get competitors that'll come to us, bikini competitors, a body pose, whatever. And they're eating, just the metabolic adaptation. Their bodies are burning very little calories, even though they're doing lots of cardio, and they're eating very little, and they can't figure out why their body Just won't respond anymore

Starting point is 00:43:28 How do you what is your approach to backing people out of that? I know it's definitely an individual thing, but are there some some general guidelines at you? So the first thing I think is so in our education platform We live by the quote education drives compliance. So when I'm teaching coaches how to coach I'm telling them first you need to educate your clients. If you go into a situation and you tell a client, hey listen, I'm going to raise your calories, be a regardless of the outcome

Starting point is 00:43:52 because we have to restore maintenance calories. And you don't tell them they might gain weight, they're gonna send you to the middle finger and be like pizza, right? They're gonna go back to the asshole that would starve them. I definitely will reverse diet them out. And the reality is, and I wrote an article on metabolic adaptation, reverse dieting,

Starting point is 00:44:10 there's three potential outcomes. One, someone's gonna hyper-respond. You start increasing those calories, they haven't been metabolically adapted very long, they're gonna start losing weight, right? And those are the people that trainers love to be like, hey, look, I increase so and so's calories and they're fucking shredded.

Starting point is 00:44:25 Like, you got a really good situation thrown your way, because it's not always gonna work that way. The other outcome is you're going to increase their calories, biofeedback markers, physiological responses, are going to improve, right? They're gonna sleep better, their hunger response gonna improve, they're gonna get their sex drive back,

Starting point is 00:44:41 they're gonna have some energy, but the weight's not gonna change. Body comp might improve a little bit, but weight's not gonna change. Body comp might improve a little bit, but weight's not gonna change. That's a decent one to deal with, right? Then you're gonna get the people that are fucked, right? That you reverse diet them. You know you have to get the calories up.

Starting point is 00:44:54 It's non-negotiable. They're gonna gain some weight. So I always tell the example of how the woman come to me from Oregon, she came to me and I was like, yeah, it's gonna be a while for we can lose some weight. She was eating like 700 calories a day, and this is like, she did like exercise tapes, like Tybal.

Starting point is 00:45:10 Like like five of them a day. And I was like, if she wasn't like cooking or working like with her husband, like she was working out, she was constantly had to be moving. Took us like a little over a year to really finish the reverse diet, and she gained the eight pounds. So here I am like telling somebody that comes to me for fat loss, hey, by the way, yeah, you can eventually lose some fat, but it's gonna take you over a year for us to even start

Starting point is 00:45:32 at that point you're gonna be even heavier. And you may put some weight on a little. That's the fucking hardest thing in the world to tell a client. But we have that conversation on the front end. I earned her trust from day one. I told her what was gonna happen. I told her that I have the long game in my best interest and her best interest, right, at heart,

Starting point is 00:45:49 and that she had a trust process. I had her read articles, I sent her stuff, so we created a level of education for her. She trusted the process through and through, and we ultimately had her go. And it's, the education piece is so important because we hear terms like metabolic damage, and I think people feel like something's wrong

Starting point is 00:46:06 with their body. When in reality, their body's acting exactly the way it's supposed to. Yeah. It's actually doing a very good job adapting. We were not born to be fucking stage ready. Right? That's not why we were put on the face of this earth. Some people maybe they should be because they look damn good doing it. But you know, it's that's not what we were put on this planet floor. Yeah, and so what about helping with the hormone profiles or what about exercise-wise, do you, maybe, place more of a focus on like straight set, resistance training to build muscle mass and... So you asked about CrossFit, right?

Starting point is 00:46:36 Mm-hmm. And the one thing I try to do with CrossFitters, I try to get them to do less CrossFit. And you want to talk about a fucking battle, right? Because they're like, well, it came to CrossFitters. That's what you lose fat. Look at the top level CrossFit. And you want to talk about a fucking battle, right? Because they're like, well, it came to CrossFit. That's what you lose, right? Look at the top level Crossfiters. They're all ripped, right? Like, why is that not going to work? Those are the work, by the way, top level any athlete is the worst representation of, yeah, example of what's

Starting point is 00:46:56 there are the one percenters, man. Yeah. But you can't tell anybody that. They're on TV, right? Like they're on TV. They're the face of CrossFit. CrossFit has sensationalized. Right. Yeah. They're starting to move towards that's the appearance of what a CrossFitter should be but you go in the average person CrossFit look at our culture today right Western culture we overcaffeinate we over stress we under sleep we under recover oh and by the way let's take the most intense modality of training known to man this day and let's throw that on top because that's not enough stress in our life. Let's just add a lot more stress. Right? Yeah, more intensity. So, and then let's eat less calories and let's create zero recovery and let's just bash our hormones and that's essentially

Starting point is 00:47:34 what's happening. So again, I have to educate them. I have to teach them what's happening with intensity, understand what happens at intensity, get them to pull back. When I can get them to pull back and trust it, we always have success. But a lot of times, man, it's reducing the intensity. It is doing things like straight sets, taking some of the higher forms of cardio away initially, not saying they can't go back in, but initially, it really comes down to stress, right? The fundamental, the fundamentals of transformation

Starting point is 00:48:04 are stress and adaptation, period. You intentionally impose a stressor, your body has to be able to facilitate an adaptation. If you've reduced your ability to facilitate adaptation, you will not get said adaptation, which could be fat loss, which could be hypertrophy, which could be strength, whatever it is. And we're all intentionally compromising those things with under recovery, right? We're unintentionally compromising those things by not recovering, not sleeping.

Starting point is 00:48:31 We don't realize it, right? We're living in the sensationalized culture of hustle and work and more intensively. Well, I don't you feel like those type of people, the ones that gravitate to those type of workouts. 100%. I mean, I always say on the show that it's like, look at the pictures on Instagram, right? It's like the people that don't need to type of workouts. 100%. I mean, I always say on the show that it's like, look at the pictures on Instagram, right?

Starting point is 00:48:46 It's like the people that don't need to be doing that are doing it the most and the people that could actually use a little bit of that in their life are not doing it. The way I explain it to people is, you know, when you're that type A individual, when you're go, go, go all the time and you're getting that cortisol to rise all the time and your body's starting to become resistant

Starting point is 00:49:00 to that cortisol as an adaptation response. Getting it to go higher will temporarily make you feel good. And so you get a lot of these people who are like, what are you talking about? These high-intense workouts make me feel amazing. I feel awesome. I feel great. And you actually will gravitate towards them

Starting point is 00:49:17 because you get that immediate feedback, not realizing that like insulin resistance, you're dealing with a situation where you're not feeling your cortisol. So if you keep pushing it up higher, you start to feel normal, but eventually that runs out and you get to the point where you're absolutely screwed. I mean, I've seen some people that were,

Starting point is 00:49:33 I mean, in terrible situation. And for people who deny that this can even happen, I mean, we've done studies on POW. It happens with drugs too, think about it. Think about what drugs, right? You have the first initial drug, whatever it may be that someone's taking, it's like I get all these positive effects.

Starting point is 00:49:47 So that leads me to do what? More, and then I get the more, and then you just end up chasing it like crazy, trying to get that feeling, meanwhile you're doing all this damage to your body. I think that's where people just have a hard time connecting that. Well, and the sad thing is,

Starting point is 00:49:59 you're talking about cortisol, it sometimes gets worse before it gets better. Right, and so then you take somebody who's been doing a lot of intensity and you're like, hey, I need you to do less intensity. I need you to eat more. Well, what happens initially? They get more tired.

Starting point is 00:50:10 Of course. They're like, what the fuck? I thought this was going to help me. Why am I more tired? Well, think about it, right? Like your body's natural state to recover is what? It's sleep, right? We recover the most when we sleep.

Starting point is 00:50:20 Like our cortisol rises, our growth hormone rises. That's when we're in a position of actually recovering. What the fuck do you think of fatigue responses? Your body's saying, hey motherfucker, I need to recover. I need to recover. You need to do more of this shit to sleep and I'm finally not stressed enough. I finally am not putting out so much cortisol. I'm finally not fight or flight.

Starting point is 00:50:39 I'm not my sympathetic nervous system. I actually want to live parasympathetic. I want to be rest and digest. I want to sleep. That's a good sign. So people that are pulling back on your training and on eating more and you're like, I'm more tired. Great, you're going down the right rabbit hole. Keep going. You'll lose the fatigue. You'll be in a good place. I tell people that the only way out is through. You have to go through it. You can't avoid it by, say okay, I'm going to avoid some of the withdrawal or the symptoms of, at some point, you're gonna cut the substance off,

Starting point is 00:51:07 whatever that may be, whether it's intense exercise, drugs, alcohol, whatever, and you're gonna feel your body go through that period of adaptation, it's gonna feel like shit. Yeah, and I mean, it's like you mentioned with drugs, right? Like you pull out of drugs,

Starting point is 00:51:20 you know, you got that withdrawal. I mean, with cortisol and training, it's a little bit different, but it's not same, initial just feeling like shit. Well, the tough part I find when I'm working with people with this is that they compare, they don't realize that the human organism, the, you know, and I say organism

Starting point is 00:51:36 could encompass all things emotional, physical, whatever, that it is a constant changing state. And what they do is they say, well, I am working out very little. I'm only working out twice a week. Normally, I was working out five or six days a week. So I'm not doing too much. But the problem is that they're comparing their current workload

Starting point is 00:51:54 to a previous state that their body may have been in when in fact, right now your current state, that is too much. If it's too much, it's too much. And sometimes that means two days a week is too much. Did I's too much, it's too much. And sometimes that means two days a week is too much. Did I work with a guy that was so, and we did Slava test on him, right? And we looked at, we can call it a adrenal fatigue, we can call it HPA dysfunction, we can call it DHA

Starting point is 00:52:14 to go through a ratio, whatever the fuck you want to call it, it exists, right? There's lab values around DHA and cortisol. We looked at his DHA cortisol ratio, it was so fucked, he was borderline stage four adrenal fatigue He was deep stage three. Wow, right? We made him not training at all for eight months Like zero like you could go in and maybe ride the bike under zone one if that even exists, right? For like 20 minutes Wow, and this is a guy that at his peak I think in like 2012 He placed top 20 in the world in the CrossFit open. Oh shit

Starting point is 00:52:43 Like so this guy was a legit athlete, and we took him out of training for eight months, and the first month, dude, he was like relieved. It was like he was waiting for somebody to be like, oh, finally, I don't have to train, right? But he, you know, classic mentality, like, you know, the other, it's out to your point, the other one is, people are like, oh, I'm only training twice

Starting point is 00:53:02 and versus six times, right? Well, if you're only training twice, but now all of a sudden, like you're also working five more hours a day, you know, you're working seven days a week. Sure, better soon. You're caffeinating triple what you used to be doing. You went through a breakup, right?

Starting point is 00:53:16 All these things, they factor into your ability to recover, your ability to perform. They're responsible for cortisol production, they're responsible for hormonal output, and everything comes back to those things. Now, I also find that people in this state, again, whatever you wanna call it, I like to use HP access dysfunction in that state.

Starting point is 00:53:34 I also find almost every single time of some form of intestinal hyperpermeability, or otherwise known as leaky gut. How do you work with that, or do you test for that? Do you do things like a pinter test? So I have, I actually brought a hormone specialist onto my staff because we get so many like that. And I put him through the FDN course

Starting point is 00:53:54 so that we have the ability to test in-house. Actually, the facility I'm looking at opening is an area where we're looking to go deeper into that. It's not the primary thing that we jump right into. Whether the lab test shows it or not, we know that the treatment is ultimately going to be relatively the same, right? Reduce in stress, change your dietary intake, change your output. So I'm going to try to manipulate what I can first, and most of the time, the insurance

Starting point is 00:54:19 won't cover it. So that's the reason we don't go to the lab test route first. That being said, if we're not creating compliance or if we're saying results, 100% I go straight into lab test. And you're right. I mean, I think that- It's almost like they go hand in hand.

Starting point is 00:54:32 They go hand in hand, man. People don't realize that your guts, your second brain, and so if you're just abusing yourself from a stress point of view, if you're abusing yourself from an exercise point of view, which really are the exact same thing, you're crushing your guts too. Now let me ask you, so you've been in fitness now for a while.

Starting point is 00:54:48 Yep. It wasn't that, because I'm not that much older than you. It wasn't that long ago where if I said something like HPA axis dysfunction or intestinal hyperperpermeability or leaky gut and I said that in a fitness circle, they'd laugh me out of the room. 100%. I was a wacko woo woo, well in this guy. You were a fitness circle, they'd laugh me out of the room. 100%. I was a Waco, you know, well-miss guy.

Starting point is 00:55:07 You were a holistic guy, right? Like, as holistic used to be such a bad connotation. Oh yeah. You're natural, you're fucking granola. You smell more. You're from Oregon, right? Like, you're from Oregon. Like, and you know, it's, yeah, like now I think that people,

Starting point is 00:55:23 people are an emergent, but at the same token, I think people, we're gonna see it shift too much in the next five years where everything is gonna get poor. Of course, of course, it's him. It's already happening right now. It's like Keto, right? It's like Keto, and then we called the Keto supplement thing before it ever happened.

Starting point is 00:55:41 As soon as Keto hit, we were like, give it to the fitness industry. We're gonna have a supplement to get you in. we call this was it was it keto that brought the supplements in or was it the Supplements that made keto sexy again because I started seeing the supplements pop up and then everyone under the sun and I It's true because keto has been around for a long time this keto diet We're the fuck have you been for the last 30 years right like I'm only 33 years of age and I've seen it come and go at least twice. Right. But things go in cycles, dude.

Starting point is 00:56:08 I remember, like, I don't know if you guys have been in the bodybuilding world, like, for, you know, like, George Farrah, the prep coach, right? And so when George got really popular, he was right before him. Dave Pulumbo was really popular. Oh, yeah. And so Dave was the kiddo. Yeah, right? And so everybody was prepping on keto.

Starting point is 00:56:25 All of a sudden George comes along and he's like, well, fuck keto, everyone needs carbs. And I remember picking up a must-go development magazine one day and the cover, it said carbs are back. Yeah, I remember answer back. Where the fuck did they go? Right, they just, they just, Everybody's been avoiding us.

Starting point is 00:56:39 I bought that magazine. Right, actually remember it saying that, that's hilarious. And I mean, mean, you know, you're being high fives. Yeah! Carbs! Where did they go?

Starting point is 00:56:49 You know, and so, and I've been around the industry long enough and everyone always asks me, well, how did you get your knowledge? Well, the truth is, man, like coming up in the industry, I hired everybody I could. I wanted to learn their methods,

Starting point is 00:56:59 I wanted to pick their brain as to how they worked with clients, how did they, you know, track data, what, like, what was going through their mind? Because I wanted to see, man, they're the experts, not me coming up in the industry. And so I had worked with like Scott Able and Scott Able's a big, Scott Able's a big high-carb-low fat guy.

Starting point is 00:57:15 He was a wrestler, right? No, Scott, Scott's from Canada. Yeah, and he, was he from that whole mode? Was he from that crew? Muscle camp. Okay, I'm okay. Back from that whole mode? Was he from that crew? Also camp.

Starting point is 00:57:26 Oh, okay, I'm okay. Back with like a Cito and like when they were all traveling and I thought, he's the cycle diet guy. He's the guy that like if you ever hear a Cito talk about somebody ate a whole cheesecake from the cheesecake factory and got leaner the next week, that was able. And so it's funny because body building with all of the bad things that it's done and brought to the fitness industry,

Starting point is 00:57:46 there's also a lot of very fascinating interests. They were the ones that were out experimenting first, right? They were the ones that were taking the risk for it. That's it. If you read like some Vince Garandas, from way back in the day, you're talking about way back in the black and white days, pre-steroid era, Vince Garandas talking about

Starting point is 00:58:03 increasing your cholesterol intake and getting stronger. You know, and we're hearing that cholesterol kills you. And, you know, of course, now we have studies showing that if you do bump your cholesterol intake, you will get stronger in all these different things. So, very fascinating. You know, as far as carbs are concerned, I responded very well to eating lower carbohydrate, mainly because I had probably some leaky gut issues and I had a lot of food intolerances

Starting point is 00:58:23 with foods that contain carbs. But it's important to also note that there are some people with HPA access to this function. You cut their carbs, they get thyroid problems. They get thyroid problems. They get thyroid problems. If you got HPA issues, you should be putting carbs back. So the guy I told you about that we made take eight months away from training. At the peak, we had them on 500 carbs.

Starting point is 00:58:42 Right? And if you think about it, what's the shut off mechanism to cortisol? It's insulin. And so what are we trying to do? If your cortisol is jacked all day because you're constantly fight or flight and you can't shift to parasympathetic, what are we looking to do? We're looking to shut off cortisol as much as we can. It's true because you could...

Starting point is 00:58:58 You could... It's true because you could raise growth hormone and cortisol still rise. Yep. Absolutely. That'll drive it down. And that's where, you know, for the internet marketing crowd, that's where a keeper's back loading was predicated on. Right?

Starting point is 00:59:11 Like it was, well, have protein and fat breakfast. You'll stop the anti-cada ball, you'll stop the catabolic nature of cortisol, but you'll keep growth hormone elevated. So, you've got, you know, an anabolic, you've got an anabolic environment. Cortisol stays elevated. It's catabolic, but you've got protein and know, an anabolic, you've got an anabolic environment. Cortisol stays elevated. It's catabolic, but you've got protein and fat to spare the muscle. So it'll immediately attack fat because cortisol is non-selective. That was the thesis, right, in not so many words of car backloading.

Starting point is 00:59:35 Yeah. It didn't take quantity into account. No, no, I don't think it went very well. No, I think a lot of bodybuilding science is, you know, one plus one equals two, and sometimes it doesn't. That's a nice breeze. But, you know, but, but, but they, they, I mean, a lot of times they, they, they point in the right direction. Things are always moving.

Starting point is 00:59:53 They're, they're on the cutting edge, and I think people want to dispute, you know, dispute it because pro bodybuilding is usually sensationalized by steroids. Sure. But, you know, you look at the natural scene, like, Joe Kuzamcki, Lane Norton, like, I think they, they're the first two I ever heard talking about macros. Lane was my, yeah, Lane was for us for sure. Right. And so, you know, and Lane learned from Joe.

Starting point is 01:00:13 And so I think that they were the first two to really talk about macros. Macros are, they've been around a long time because of those guys, but they're really becoming sexy like the last three or four years. Even that's starting to go too far though with the IIFWAM proud. And how do I fit these pop charts and donuts? I'm sure you've heard of us bash that stuff before, right? Well, so it's interesting. So people come to us all the time and like,

Starting point is 01:00:33 what's your approach? Is it macros? And I'm like, well, everything comes down to quantity. Listen, like if you eat 500 calories of salmon and broccoli, you're going to be metamolically adapted. If you eat 5,000 calories of salmon and broccoli, you're going to be fat. Like adopted. If you eat 5,000 calories of salmon and broccoli, you're gonna be fat. Like it is what, calories do matter.

Starting point is 01:00:47 Sure. Like, so to say that macros are the only thing that's important is completely false. But then it's like, can you eat pop tarts and donuts and get stage shredded? Yes. It's been proven. But the stage shredded equal epitome of health.

Starting point is 01:01:02 Fuck no. There you go. Right, so I operate, and I don't know if you guys have seen this concept that I put out, I operate in the triangle of awareness, right? And so I say there's somebody that has performance goals, they have aesthetic goals, or they have longevity goals. And there are three very distinct points

Starting point is 01:01:16 with three very distinct sets of goals and subset of non-goals within them, right? So if you're telling me, and you're coming to me as an athlete, let's use my fighter next week. Your goal is to win your UFC match. Don't give up. I don't give a fuck if you want to be a hundred years old. Because you're not going to be a hundred years old.

Starting point is 01:01:30 You're going to take a lot of time. I really don't care what you look like when you're fighting. If you win, you collect your paycheck, and you win knockout of the night, I did my job, right? If you come to me to win a bodybuilding show, do I want to keep you healthy? Of course I do. I want you alive on that stage, right?

Starting point is 01:01:44 I don't get you don't win the show, feel it then win the Mr. Olympia because he bench presses more than Kigrein. Right. Right? Like he's healthier. Right. Like you don't. Right? There's no biomarkers involved. Right.

Starting point is 01:01:55 But if you want to be a hundred years old, you're not going to try to catch past in the NFL. Right? You're not going to try to get on a bodybuilding stage. And so where every person that's listening right now has to take a step back and be like, all right, where am I? Because if I say I want performance, I'm a cross-fitter. If I want performance, how much cosmetics do I want? How much longevity do I want? So how far away of that definitive point of performance do you want?

Starting point is 01:02:16 It's funny because the very active competing at a very high level is anti-launcheivity. It's so bad, dude. That pressurezier is not gonna live to be 95. No, they've done autopsies on long distance ultra marathon runners who suddenly die at the age of 45 and their hearts look like they're 80 years old from the oxidative damage. 100%. So what I like to tell people is,

Starting point is 01:02:38 because the average person, most people, you know, who are listening right now, have no desire to compete at those types of levels. Most people listen and just like look, which is why they shouldn't be taking advice or information from them. They just want to look good, they want to feel good, they want to be able to work, their job be successful and all that stuff. I like to tell people, look, if you're really healthy, you're going to look fucking good.

Starting point is 01:03:02 You're not going to be stage ready, but you're going to look fucking good. Yeah. You're not gonna be stage ready. You're not gonna be, but you're gonna look fucking amazing. Stage ready. It feels like shit. Yes, right? Like, it's not a fun place to go. Like even being photoshoot ready is not a fun place to go. No, it's amazing. It's amazing what the perception that people have

Starting point is 01:03:17 because of the lights, the stage, the cameras, the, you mentioned Instagram earlier. Right. People will be stage ready and they'll take a picture. Oh, look at me. I feel like a million bucks, you don't? Yeah. Like, let's get a camera on you the last seven days. Right.

Starting point is 01:03:30 Let's see how many times you exploded on someone or like, you don't feel good. I'm hungry. It's gonna be well. Yeah, you don't feel good. Yeah. So, yeah, and the other thing too, is if you develop a good awareness and connection to your body to understand

Starting point is 01:03:44 what your optimal health is, then that becomes your home base. And it's a good middle point of all those. It's a good home base because when you're an extreme competitive athlete or you're pushing your body to these crazy limits, your home base is health versus extreme, because I see this all, we see this all the time, right?

Starting point is 01:04:03 Extreme performance, you know, extreme performance, extreme, you know, body composition, and then when I see this all, we see this all the time, right? Extreme performance, you know, extreme performance, extreme, you know, body composition, and then when I'm not competing, there is no home base and it's fuck all. It's all of a sudden, you see these people off season and they're not recognizable. Well, and it's like, we live in this comparison world, which it's social media has made it super easy to do.

Starting point is 01:04:22 And so you look at Instagram and so people think, well, the picture of health is abs. And as a female, it's probably not the truth, right? Some are genetically gifted with a set point low enough where that is the truth, but as a female, it's probably not the truth. And so now you get these females out there that think the picture of health is abs.

Starting point is 01:04:38 And so they're chasing abs as their picture of health when in reality, they need to chase set point. They need to understand that every navigation away from set point is going to come with some sort of health, when in reality, they need to chase set point. They need to understand that every navigation away from set point is going to come with some sort of adaptation, some sort of internal compromise from their body. And so, again, like going back to the education piece,

Starting point is 01:04:53 if you get a client to understand where their set point is, where they're comfortable navigating from set point as a lifestyle perspective, then I think that you're probably gonna win long term. The point to that is that it's good for you to put stress on the body occasionally because you have a good, solid home base and you understand where you want to return. The problem that most people have is they find that stress and they attach themselves to

Starting point is 01:05:13 it, they identify with it and becomes dogmatic about it. That's my approach because they had some sort of success with it because the body adapted, it changed, it showed them some sort of a response. Now I'm fucking married to it. I do it in CrossFit. We see that in two ways. One, you get the idiots that go in and Now I'm fucking married to it. And CrossFit, we see that in two ways, right? One, you get the idiots that go in and they think Paleo's a good diet for CrossFit.

Starting point is 01:05:29 Like, you're gonna tell. Ooh, talk about that. That's a great controversial discussion right there. Paleo's the single worst diet for CrossFit. Ooh! So, like that's a true state. And here's the thing, if you- That's funny, that's controversial for CrossFit.

Starting point is 01:05:41 It's just, it's just, it's just, it's just factual and actually, go ask Rob Wolff. He would say the same thing. And if actually, if you eat, if you read, what is it, eat a wired E, he actually talks about it in that book, that, you know, there's not enough carbohydrate

Starting point is 01:05:57 in the paleo diet to fuel glycolytic exercise, period. Crossfit is glycolytic in nature. So, but here's what's happening is, and you guys talked about it two or three episodes ago. You talked about like, you know, your map's anabolic and the transition, like in your programs, right? And how, like, when you start to adapt and there's like this adaptation phase that you change a stimulus. Well, in Crossfit, you get into Crossfit, everything is adaptation. And so it's really the brain

Starting point is 01:06:20 is learning. And I've gone on record, and I think that you would create the same level of results at 500 calories that you would at 5,000 calories because it's all a neurological adaptation. You're learning how to snatch, you're learning how to clean and jerk. Most of you people have never squatted, they've never deadlifted, they've never run, they've never done a 20 minute amrop. Right? So like you get into a 20 minute amrop and you get the person that's like, oh, I'm good at exercise, I'm gonna fucking blow this out of the water. Two minutes in, they're laying on their back and they can't even finish 20 minutes, right? But learning how to pace yourself is an adaptation.

Starting point is 01:06:49 All of these things are happening for the first eight or nine months, they're neurological adaptations. Well, if you're eating a paleo diet and a calorie deficit, I guess what's gonna happen? You're gonna lose weight, you're gonna be shredded, you're gonna leverage a little bit of cortisol, you're gonna feel great. The problem is they all hit this wall at eight or nine months in. And they're like, fuck, why did I just get weaker? How come those 50 pound PRs are 10 pound regression? How do you deal with people that you don't understand it?

Starting point is 01:07:12 How do you deal with people that you know deep down inside need to get away from CrossFit, but they absolutely love it. It's gotta be, it's gotta be struggle. It's a struggle, right? So, I mean, I've spent the last four years majority CrossFit fitting, right? I know for me and I somewhat fit that mold, right? Because from my life, I flew in last night,

Starting point is 01:07:33 I'm on a red eye home tonight. Think about what that does. Just that alone as a stressor to the body. Let alone the fact that I'm up at five, like working today up until, you know, whenever. Putting cross fit on top of that is just fucking stupid. Right. But you're addicted to that, like, you know, kind of hormonal response.

Starting point is 01:07:51 You catch yourself sometimes, like, when you get back, you want to go to your insurance. And you know better, that you recognize it. 100%. Right. And actually, so one of the things Josiah and I talked about this week, because we've been working out and I told him, I'm like, dude, like, I need you to tell me to shut the fuck up half the time and we need to just like power lift and we

Starting point is 01:08:08 need to not do anything super high intense. Not that power lifting is low intensity. I mean, I get the whole intensity being relative to load on the bar, but and he's like, all right, I got you, you know, but I needed that accountability. Otherwise, it's, you know what else is for busy people? It's easy to go to a CrossFit class. It's easy to show up, shut your brain off for an hour, and do whatever the fuck they tell you to do.

Starting point is 01:08:29 You don't have to think about it. You don't have to be motivated. Because as soon as you're there, you have to do it or you look like a fucking douche. Right, you gotta do the workout. That's why it's so appealing to athletes. It is. It's sort of that process.

Starting point is 01:08:40 Like you remember that. Like show enough for practice. It's so easy to do, right? It's so easy to do, right? Yeah, it definitely feeds to that. So, that's the first thing though, right? Is that whole neurologic adaptation phase with crossfitters. The other one is high level crossfitters.

Starting point is 01:08:54 And so I built this model, you know, theoretically we all know they should be periodizing their training, right? You should periodize, you should, they should see a theoretically, trust me, that's a fucking big F. Um, I should show you some of the show. Dude, I, did you watch the, You should be a theoretical runner. You should be a theoretical runner. Trust me, that's a fucking big F. I should show you some of the shows. Dude, did you watch the, and I love Rich Froning,

Starting point is 01:09:09 but did you watch the last Netflix series? I didn't even, I didn't realize until him, and then we had Jason Collieb on the show, and he also confirms, I didn't realize these fuckers were training that intense three times a day. That's the time. Minimum. That's crazy.

Starting point is 01:09:24 But here's the thing, right? It's crazy. I think that, so here's the thing, right? That's crazy. I think that, so here's the thing. Look at what Rich and Jason are doing in those training sessions. They're doing Amraps, they're doing E-Moms, they're doing things where they can control their heart rate and the intensity across the whole thing.

Starting point is 01:09:36 They're not doing fucking 21, 15, 9, like Fran, right? Drusters and pull ups, which is ironically for a two minute workout will smash the nervous system. They're not doing fucking Merf. They're not doing things quote unquote four time. Right. Trusters and pull ups, which is ironically for a two minute workout will smash the nervous system. They're not doing fucking murph. They're not doing things quote unquote four time. They're doing it where they can control the intensity. They're living at 80%.

Starting point is 01:09:51 What do power lifters do? They live at 80% should have only lifters do. There's longevity in that. They're really just building magic number 80%. They're just building a Robic base, right, within a working environment. That's why they're able to sustain the high volume. The problem is the inference that people out in the public take is, well, they're training three times a day.

Starting point is 01:10:08 They're smashing themselves. They're gonna take CrossFit class. So let me go to fucking three classes, compete in three classes in three different shifts. Right. I'm the motherfucker on the top of the whiteboard. Like, I'm such a badass. No, dude, like, you're gonna suck come the open, right?

Starting point is 01:10:20 So if they're periodizing properly, your nutrition has to match that. Because the demands of in-season crossfit, like very high intensity glycolic exercise, are not the demands of off-season crossfit, which realistically is strength and skill acquisition. The demands of intense fat loss phase versus the demands of taking some time to relax and recover the hormones completely different. Every individual needs to look at their nutrition as a much broader scope, right? And to a degree, it's all periodization. And CrossFit, it's true periodization. In fat loss, there is a small element of periodization with it. And I think a lot of people overlook that. Now something I've said in the past that was actually, I

Starting point is 01:10:57 remarkably controversial was that when you're dealing with the body starting to adapt to too much stress that I found in my experience that women in particular seem to get into that HPA axis dysfunction that faster and easier. That's a thing that's, I don't think that's controversial. Well, I have people, when you talk about what you do, and it's like, no, like if I have women fast too much,

Starting point is 01:11:22 if I have pushed, like their period stops, they start losing their hair at much sooner rates. They're also less resilient. Once they're in that HPA dysfunction, forget about it. Like it is a much harder process coming out. But if you think about it, right, it all goes back to pregnant alone. Right. Right. And precursors and the ability to produce sex hormone.

Starting point is 01:11:41 Obviously males have a much easier, and they're much more resilient from a sex hormone standpoint that people are, which is all going to go back to the ability to create adequate amounts of cortisol. You know, pregnant women's steel is going to be much more prevalent in a female and it's just going to be harder to recover from. Now, when you look at Jay, when you look at the CrossFit community and the culture around it right now, do you, and knowing what you know, and dealing with as many athletes as you have, do you feel like it's getting better or worse? At the athletic level, or at the just kind of everyday class warrior level?

Starting point is 01:12:12 Every day class warriors, you know, in general. I think it's getting worse because of like the statement I said earlier, I think that there's too many people that are talking about weight control and crossfit. Like we said earlier, go back to the whole triangle of awareness thing. Performance is so far away from cosmetics. There's so absolute performance is not defined as absolute cosmetics.

Starting point is 01:12:35 Now, if you're fueling your performance optimally, we'll cosmetics improve most likely. But look at Matt Frazier. He is not the leanest dude at the CrossFit games Oh, and he won by the largest margin of victory ever last year right by not being super shredded And you know not not to use names. Can I drop a name sure? Like I don't want to be super controversial But be super controversial. It's my But motherfuckers

Starting point is 01:13:01 I don't I don't want to be because I know that this person works with a competitor of ours and it's not a reflection of them. But like Brookwell's last year, she posted a picture a week out of the CrossFit Games. Homegirl was shredded. I have a ridiculous amount of respect for what she achieved because I don't think her set point is super close to shredded.

Starting point is 01:13:20 Like I think she's somebody that needs to be a little heavier. Yeah, thicker, she's a thicker friend to her. She's a thicker girl to her girl, right? She also didn't have her best performance last year. Now, there could be a host of other things that went wrong. And I'm not in her camp. I don't understand anything that went wrong, but I have to believe that what she did

Starting point is 01:13:36 to get super shredded, negatively contributed to perform. Especially when you're dealing with women. Fat is a hormone-sensitive tissue. It is. And if you eliminate all of it in a woman in particular, you're gonna have some big problems with your hormones and then your performance. Yeah, absolutely.

Starting point is 01:13:53 It's a, now, what is optimal from a body fat percentage for a female to perform at a high level? I think that's super open to debate. Oh, and I think it's gonna be relative to the individual. Yes, of course. I think Brooke being slightly heavier. I think she'd perform a little better. And dude, she came forth the year before that. She's clearly a talented girl. Right. She's young. She's resilient. She'll be back. The sheer. She'll crush it.

Starting point is 01:14:16 But I think that, you know, watching that, because I do it my phone blew up. You see this picture? And I'm like, yeah, let's just hold out and let's see performance. Because initially, my inclination was, yeah, this isn't going to turn out very well. And it didn't. How hard is that to tell someone who comes in high as you at that level and say, hey, look it, we got to make you fatter. So I just had a former games client reach out to me and she said, hey, I really need you to rebuild like my metabolism.

Starting point is 01:14:43 I'm in a pretty fucked up place. And so we started going through things and sure enough. I'm in a pretty fucked up place. So we started going through things and sure enough, she's just pretty messed up. And so I told her, I said, listen, when competition time comes around, she's shredded, dude. Like, when competition time rolls around,

Starting point is 01:14:58 I might take your abs from you. Don't worry, I'll give them back to you. After you've been on that podium, I'll give you your abs back. I can absolutely do that in the off season. But right now, I don't give him back to you. After you've been on that podium, I'll give you your abs back. I can absolutely do that in the off season. But right now, I don't give a fuck about abs. And right now from a crossfit perspective, we're going into December, I don't know when this will air,

Starting point is 01:15:13 but we're tomorrow's December 1st. And we're 12, 13 weeks out of the open. Anybody that's thinking about competing in the open right now, stop caring about your cosmetic. Do you think it's the TV and social media that's driving that? Fuck you. Right.

Starting point is 01:15:27 Absolutely. Because we see these athletes that are like, well, I think there's this general perception that if you're lighter, you'll be better at gymnastics, CrossFit's becoming a very gymnastic focused modality. Like, if you look at the regionals last year, at a lot of clients do the regional ones. And there's some true to that, right?

Starting point is 01:15:41 Absolutely. Well, it's relative body strength. That's right. Right? So, Joe DeFranko's huge's relative body strength. That's right. Right? Like so, Joe DeFranco's huge on relative body strength. And I think that more cross-setters need to start understanding that concept. You know, if they had more relative body strength, it doesn't matter how much you weigh. Doesn't matter what you weigh, right?

Starting point is 01:15:56 Because if you can overcome your body weight certain amount of time, you're going to win. And so I think sometimes they have to look at themselves and be like, well, am I just not fueling enough at this weight? And that was the case two years ago where I worked with a girl who swore up and now it's like, I got to lose weight for gymnastics. We ended up gaining two pounds. It was the first time she ever went to the games. So, awesome.

Starting point is 01:16:14 It was just proving that. Do you ever get any backlash for this message? I'm sure it's out there, right? Like, my clients that hire me don't necessarily backlash, because I think they're on board with like, what I'm teaching. Yeah, but you've been on a lot of podcasts. You've done a lot of stuff out there, right? Like, my clients had hired me, don't necessarily backlash, because I think they're on board with like, what I'm teaching. You've been on a lot of podcasts, you've done a lot of stuff out there. So, yeah, I'm sure there's people that are going to disagree with what I say, and that's okay.

Starting point is 01:16:32 Um, you know, it's, I like to live in science. I like to say, like, this is, like, go look at the fucking physiology, like, go look at the studies. It's not that hard to prove what I'm telling you. Um, long term living in a deficit is not going to be advantageous for a hormone profile. Like you said, fat's a very hormone-sensitive tissue. These things are non-negotiable.

Starting point is 01:16:52 I don't give a fuck what you want to come at me and think. Let's talk facts. The dispute would be, all right, well, let's take somebody the first time they've ever gone into a calorie deficit. Well, what's going to happen immediately in a deficit? Cortisol is going to rise. Cortisol is a powerful fucking hormone Well, what's gonna happen immediately in a deficit? Cortisol is gonna rise. Cortisol's a powerful fucking hormone. So the first time you live in a deficit,

Starting point is 01:17:08 you're going to crush it for six months, and you're probably gonna have the best performance of your life until you hit that wall. This is why if you go on cortical steroid, you know, or you know, drugs or whatever, because you have some kind of inflammatory disease or whatever, you ask anybody, you've never had to take cortical steroids because they have some kind of inflammatory disorder, and they you ask anybody who's ever had to take corticosteroids because they have some kind of inflammatory

Starting point is 01:17:26 disorder and they'll tell you they feel amazing. They feel great because cortisone's powerful. Oh yeah, it's a great, it's a feel, cortisone. Yeah, it's 100% is. The problem is it's not glucose, right? When you run out of it, you can't just drink a shake, right?

Starting point is 01:17:40 There's no fucking cortisol shake, right? And if you're on to something there we go They said cortisol will bat was bad. We're saying it's good There you go see this is what you doing the drink Let's make some predictions. Let's make some predictions What do you predict the next fads because you're so entrenched in nutrition in this whole world? Yeah, what do you think the next big fads are gonna be I have my own predictions, but I'll let you go first. Well, high carbohydrate diets will be the next thing back.

Starting point is 01:18:08 Because carbs, carbs disappear in a way from it. Keto took them, Keto put them away, locked them in the closet. So they're going to break out. You're going to start to see fasting, go away. Carb cycling is about to get really hot again. I don't know, man, I try not, I'm so anti-fads. So the one question that I always ask, what's the best dietary protocol?

Starting point is 01:18:31 I don't know, like tell me about yourself. I always say, if you have... I hate that we have names for it in the first place. It's so ridiculous to me. If you ask me a question, chances are you're gonna get 20 questions in response. I wanna know who you are, I wanna know physical stature, what's your training, what's your dietary history. I wanna know who you are, I wanna know, like physical stature, what's your training,

Starting point is 01:18:45 what's your dietary history. Like, I wanna know so much shit about you before I'll even begin to answer your question. And I think sometimes it pisses people off because they want a simple answer. Oh yeah, they would just tell me what diet's best then. I mean, people, I know right now there's people listening and they're just waiting for you to see.

Starting point is 01:18:59 It's an asshole. Or, no, or do they just wait and say, it's the blueprint. Tell me what's the best one then, what's the best diet? So here's the best thing I should do. So here's the funny thing. I put an e-book out, like I don't know, two years ago.

Starting point is 01:19:09 It took me four fucking years to write that book. I can write a blog article, five pages, in no shit like 25 minutes. Like I'm a reasonably good writer. It took me four years to wrap my head around writing an e-book, and I still don't think it's that accurate. Right, like it's the best of what I could do, because I don't know how to generalize a population. So, Pedro has actually challenged me one time.

Starting point is 01:19:29 He said, dude, I was at his info marketing mastermind, and he was like, dude, I promise you, if you had to make one die if everybody in here you could. And the truth is, yes, I could, because I would choose the worst metabolism. I would build it for that. And then all the other metabolism that were good enough, well, they would just have to suffer, because they're living on the shit metabolism, I would build it for that. And then all the other metabolisms that were good enough, well, they would just have to suffer because they're living on the shit metabolism, right? So even though I can tolerate 600 grams of carbohydrates, I would have to live on this motherfucker's 200 grams of carbs and

Starting point is 01:19:53 suffer. And that sucks. Like that's not fair to an individual. Well, our intuitive nutrition guide that we put out recently, it doesn't tell people what to eat. It's literally, it's literally a guide teaching people, giving them techniques and teaching people how to pay attention. Yeah, how to become aware of their body's signals, how to connect to it so they can figure out for themselves, what works for them at that particular moment,

Starting point is 01:20:13 and how to figure out as their body changes. So dude, so I would classify that as biofeedback, physiological data, right? You're teaching somebody to become varying in tune with biofeedback. I am so massively in agreement with that. I had a client two years ago. She came to me and said, I fucking hate the scale.

Starting point is 01:20:31 It drives me nuts. Super cool. Don't ever weigh yourself. We can do this. Like 14 weeks later, I get a text. She's like, hey, guess what? Like, oh, fuck, what's about to happen? Right?

Starting point is 01:20:41 She's like, I got on the scale this morning. Duh, duh, duh. Fuck, what's about to happen? Right? Down, something like 30 pounds. And I was like, yeah, because we listened to your body. Like hunger signals, sleep signals, mood, like energy in the gym, recovery. Like when you're maximizing those things,

Starting point is 01:20:58 the body goes where it wants to go. Amazing. Now, was she stage ready? No, but she was super healthy, super happy, fit, looking reasonably good, like to get her past that set point, would we have to start looking at other metrics probably, but to get her at set point or slightly below set point,

Starting point is 01:21:18 there's all my feedback. Man, healthy looks good. I wish people understood that. If you're just were healthy, you'd look pretty fucking awesome. You look better than most people, and you'd look better than you probably ever have. I sat down on the plane last night, they look across from me, and they're just doing it.

Starting point is 01:21:31 They're like, I was fortunate enough to fly first class, and they're just giving out dinners, right? And I passed on my dinner, and I always do. I feel like first class flight attendants hate me, because I never want to drink. I always have my own water. I never want food. What can I do for you? You should've put on your face.

Starting point is 01:21:46 Just shut up and let me sleep, right? That's it. Let me listen to my pump and let me sleep. And so I look across in this guy, he's like, no, I'm good, I brought two piece of fruit. And I'm like, oh, he's like, guy had to be in his 50s, 60s. But I actually started looking him up and down because I'm like, this guy is making a quality eating choice.

Starting point is 01:22:02 Like the dude was a good looking guy, late in his 50s, early sixties, like skin was tight. Like all the markers that you would think of as somebody that quote unquote diets, I bet the guy just eats healthy, just eats healthy, right? And so exactly like healthy looks good and it provides all the things that we're all looking for anyway. And I feel like you need to go there first before you ever chase these streams, right?

Starting point is 01:22:23 Of course. But whether it be that, if you don't have that foundation, you can't go to the right extremes of the triangle. You'll cause way more damage. 100%. So I'm gonna make some predictions, because I know I asked you to make some, but I'll make some.

Starting point is 01:22:34 So we made predictions in the past that protein would be added to everything, which now it is. You see protein cereal, protein water, protein, whatever, it's the magic macro nutrient, right? Here's the next prediction I'll make. You're gonna see probiotics added to everything. Mark my words. You're gonna see regular foods come out

Starting point is 01:22:48 with added probiotics or live cultures or whatever. So you're just a new thing. I think you're right. Yeah, I think you're right. And the whole gut thing, here's the thing that's funny is now you're starting to get a crowd that's out there that's saying that the probiotics are actually the cause of even more problems,

Starting point is 01:23:04 which I would argue like this whole kombucha craze right now. Like people are actually feeding their yeast more than actually killing their yeast. Definitely good. That's so much. So much. I dealt with it. There's so many things.

Starting point is 01:23:15 I dealt with it personally. And I remember the first time I got introduced to kombucha and I remember taking one and then feeling so good, just like the fucking all the people I talk shit about. So I start fucking drinking in every day because I feel great. I got worse. Yes, and then I noticed if I didn't have it,

Starting point is 01:23:31 I'd feel all, yes. You're feeding the yeast. Yes. Yeah, you're just making it even more. And so, so you'll start to see that. And ironically on the protein thing, what's all the research right now? It's showing you don't even need near as much protein

Starting point is 01:23:41 as we've been claiming for years. Like it's not even close. No, and I mean, depending on the context, obviously too much protein can be very bad for you. Fuck yeah. It can feed cancer. Do you remember my babies? Yes.

Starting point is 01:23:53 The fitness factory. Okay, so he was my first ever link coach. Oh wow. And this guy, his whole thing was on, what did he call it, BV value? Cause I asked him when they found it. Oh yeah, bio free. How do you build your diet? Well, it's on BV value, because I asked him when I, how do you build your diet?

Starting point is 01:24:05 Well, it's on BV value. So you're telling me that the whole structure of a contest diet should be built based on the rate at which protein digest or the availability of your protein. Like, that's fucking me, right? Like, so you're just eating whole eggs all day long? Yeah, whole eggs, as you got close to it, as you got close to your diet,

Starting point is 01:24:21 it was all like egg white's fish, shit. And I was like, all right, whatever. This guy said, so I was dating a girl that was a figure pro at the time. And we were both working with him. And he sent us our diet. It was the same diet. To the letter, I had like two or three more ounce of protein at every meal. And I actually went to the hospital one day during prep.

Starting point is 01:24:40 My gut was so fucked. Like I couldn't burp, I couldn't shit, I couldn't, I couldn't fart, I couldn't do anything, dude. It was so, I was like something's wrong. And of course I went on Dr. Google and I'm looking up all the shit. I'm like, oh my god, I'm gonna die. I need to go to the hospital.

Starting point is 01:24:57 And of course I'm in prep and I'm calorie deprived and life sucked, but oh, dude, I mean high protein diets. I'm somebody that absolutely needs under either at or under body weight and protein. I'm the same way. Most people I find are like- I, most people, and so I'm actually starting to, the literature I'm excited about and there's a faction down in Atlanta that's starting to study it I think is protein intake relative to like an anaerobic or aerobic capacity. And I think that you're with CrossFit and with other high intensity training modalities,

Starting point is 01:25:29 you're actually gonna start to see people interplaying levels of protein there and figuring out what is best for cardiac output. How about protein fasting every once in a while? I think it's a genius idea. I think fasting in general, assuming you're not... Depending on the right... Assuming you're not an in- like high level athlete, you know,

Starting point is 01:25:47 again, in the right protocol, but as a whole, there's so many benefits. Oh, after finding your set point, I think it's excellent to put that's the key, right? That's you have to be there before you. And I mean, and I've had successful people, ironically, and this is the complete fucked up application, but this is like, again, listening to an individual and working with them who are metabolically adapted, that when you're adding in calories, I don't know if you've seen,

Starting point is 01:26:10 if you've worked with someone where you add the calories and you're like, I'm so bloated, I just can't even do it. I've actually used fasting in that protocol to create a hunger response to actually get them to eat enough calories. And I've had really good success with that as well. It's counterintuitive, because you're like,

Starting point is 01:26:24 I need to feed you more, but first I got to feed you less. You know, I think it's like, you're just listening to them, dude. You're listening to them. You're listening to an individual. You're not, you're not living on a fucking template, right? You're not living in some ebook that you wrote. Like you're, you're listening to an individual and figuring out, and just like you guys talked about the intuitive piece like you're listening to your body Your body will always tell you what it wants. Oh love that. Jay when did you first come across mind pump? Was it after Jay or was it who you how do you not right? I wish I could be like man This is how I came across it. Are we everywhere Instagram for sure was probably the first exposure to it Adam probably

Starting point is 01:27:04 So I don't know I don't know what what the first exposure to it. Adam probably. So I don't know what the first exposure was. I know Jay created the introduction. And I obviously knew about you guys prior to Jay because I was like, oh, that introduction would be amazing. And then I recently, you guys just did some work with Amanda Bootsie, right? I just connected with her a week or two ago from Daniel D. P. O. So she's a brilliant young lady.

Starting point is 01:27:24 She's super charismatic. So I did a call with her a week or two ago from Daniel D. P. Oh, she's a brilliant young lady. She's super charismatic. Her is a great young lady. I did a call with her last week and I said, So are you helping her now with her nutritiousness? No, so she works with somebody and he's awesome. But I think I'm in a record with her the week before Christmas. Actually, my wife and I are doing our baby moon in Laguna. Oh cool.

Starting point is 01:27:42 And so we're gonna hook up with her and Brian. Brian's her boyfriend, right? You're right, yeah. So we're gonna hook up with her and Brian, Brian's her boyfriend, right? You're right, right. Yeah, so we're gonna hook up with them, do dinner and do a whole podcast thing. But Daniel D. Piazza created that introduction. Do you guys know him? No. Oh, dude, Rich 20-something.

Starting point is 01:27:54 You guys, I need to create that connection for you guys. Oh, that's what Taylor has been trying to connect to him for. Oh, perfect. Yeah, great stuff. Oh, connect you guys. Yeah. Daniel's awesome. Perfect.

Starting point is 01:28:04 We really, yeah. Yeah, he's a really good dude. Well, you're doing good things man. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have the right mentality. Yeah, we love connecting with people who, you know, we feel are doing the right things for the industry and I think connecting with all these people and having people work together is gonna, he is gonna elevate the industry as a whole

Starting point is 01:28:18 and this is a message that needs to get out. I think that, you know, I live by this all day, you know, I mean, I've been very fortunate to help a lot of people, but I think that the reality is, 56 years from now, we're all gonna pass, and we can't take any of our material items to the grave, but we definitely can leave this society in a better place. And I think that you guys would agree a lot of what comes

Starting point is 01:28:37 to us today, we're fixing the mistakes of generations past. If we can create a generation today that is doing the right thing, the next generation beyond us will spend time optimizing and fixing. And I think if we actually are doing our part and we're doing it correctly, as we're leaving this universe, we'll see a universe built on optimization versus correction. And that will be like validation that everything I've done is correct. What's the legacy right there? What's the future of what you're working on

Starting point is 01:29:05 like right now, like your business? Like, are you, do you want to just keep it where it's at? You've got your nice team, you've got a living for yourself or what are you trying to do? Nah, dude, the, the, I'm always working on something. Like I'm too, I'm too ADD to not. So we just launched our education platform. That's my big thing.

Starting point is 01:29:21 So we open up the nutritional coaching institute. And so I look around and I'm like, what does that look like? What does that look like? So I'll give you kind of the background, and I'll tell you how people can come into it and give like the whole thing. But, you know, so I looked around,

Starting point is 01:29:33 there's no nutritional certifications out there that I think are like amazing. I think there's some precision nutrition teaches amazing education. Anyone that comes out super knowledgeable, they know how to talk about food in and out, but the problem is, how do you deal with, how do you deal with applying it to all the situations

Starting point is 01:29:51 we just talked about for like the last hour hour and hour. You have a trouble shoot. You can't, like they don't teach you that shit. And what I looked around is there's nothing built on application, and I was like, fuck that. Like that's where I win. I win based on application. So our certifications are all twofold.

Starting point is 01:30:06 You come to our level one nutrition coach. Day one is science. You have to know the science to be able to speak about it. We teach you all that stuff. Very similar information as precision. And then day two is application. And so we talk about everything from like, what are you learning in the intake?

Starting point is 01:30:20 Like what's the psychology behind the intake? Like how can you engage with your clients? How do you troubleshoot a client? And we spend a whole day based on application. And then our test is unique, too. So it's, they're, you complete 390 day case studies. And what I need to see is, how did you create your intake? Like, what does your intake form look like?

Starting point is 01:30:36 Why did you create it that way? How did you set up a client prescription? Why did you set it up? Show me all of your client interaction for 90 days. And tell me why you were successful, why you weren't successful, what things you were reading from the clients. And if you can successfully articulate that, I think that you've shown competency in the practice of nutrition coaching. Wow. And I will certify you. Now we've built extension courses. So we have

Starting point is 01:30:56 a mindset specialty course. We have a hormone specialty course and we have a business system, a specialty course. And that's all of our level one. And then level two launches the end of this of next year. Very cool, dude. I would love for you to come out here and host one of those here at our place. Let's do it. I think that would be amazing.

Starting point is 01:31:13 I think that would be fucking new. Your fans would love that. Yeah, I think that'd be super right. And you're definitely the type of person who I feel like, at least I'm pretty sure all the boys would agree that would put our stamp of approval on guys, drop a knowledge and information because this is the stuff that not a lot of people are talking about. Nobody's talking about all the individual variances. It's always about

Starting point is 01:31:30 camps of doing it this way. My way is better in your way and then trying to prove each other wrong versus no, there's could be a lot of different ways. Nothing's right. I'm never right. I'm never wrong. Right. And I actually think that the foundation of nutrition coaching and application in general is state your case, like why are you doing it this way? I don't give a fuck if science tells you everything you're doing is right, the body might prove you wrong.

Starting point is 01:31:53 The body is gonna do what it wants to do. You have to have a really good reason for why you're about to do what you're about to do. And if you put that into play, let's watch the body, let's pull a case star, right? Let's test, let's retest. And like, so with nutrition, let's assess, let's watch the body, let's pull a K-star, right? Let's test, let's retest. And like, with nutrition, let's assess, let's see what feedback the body gives us physically,

Starting point is 01:32:09 physiologically, let's reassess, let's re-implement, and that's really it is. That's really all it is. That's the course of my work with any client. Excellent, excellent. Thanks for coming on, man. Yeah, thank you guys for having me. It was a great, great time, Jay.

Starting point is 01:32:22 I will be the last time we do this. Yep, definitely. We'll go shoot some, maybe some video content. Let's do it. Excellent. Check it out. Go to YouTube Mind Pump TV. We've got some awesome videos on there. In fact, I hope we have one that's up there live. When this airs with me and Jason talking about some of the stuff on video. Let's do it. Excellent. Awesome brother. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, video. Let's do it. Excellent. Awesome brother. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy,

Starting point is 01:32:48 and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbumble at Mind Pump Media dot com. The RGB Superbumble includes maps on the ballad, maps for performance, and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout nutrients in over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a 430-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other

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Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 664: Jason Phillips

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