Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 785: Dr. Layne Norton on Taking Charge of Your Diet, Metabolism & Relationship with Food

Starting point is 00:00:00 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. This is what, this is the third time we've had Lena on the show. It's always fun because he's probably one of the most polarizing people that we bring on our show. This episode, I love, a lot of hate it for our boys. This episode had the most like information, like nutrition information, science information. I think it's all, I'm gonna say, this is like diet talk.

Starting point is 00:00:34 Yeah. Oh yeah. You're into diet talk. You know, have fun with this. I didn't even ask you how you felt with this one. So this was not a favor. Oh, your snooze fest. Oh wow.

Starting point is 00:00:43 Big time for me. Wow, so this was not a favorite thing. Because we didn't talk so much about this personal life because this was a a favor here. It's newsfest. Oh wow. Big time for me. Wow, so this was not a favor? Because we didn't talk so much about his personal life because this was a favorite for me. Why no, because it's in your guys realm of like, you know, really optimizing your diet and like, you know, I mean, it was compelling information. If like, that's what, you know, drives you. So I could see that, but yeah, for me, it was like,

Starting point is 00:00:59 oh wow, I didn't even think about that for you. It was because it was such a, it was so much my favorite episode with Lane so far that I just assume that we all thought that, but I didn't even think about that for you because it was such a it was so much my favorite episode with Lane so far That I just assumed that we all thought that but I didn't even think that Justin may not enjoyed as much as we know He got real deep into science and macros and reverse dieting. That was great talk on reverse diet Oh, this is a this is a great one for that I think I think people that we and we get in tuition questions all the fucking time and I for I finally feel like what is this the Third or fourth time now that we've interviewed Lane

Starting point is 00:01:25 and we've been around him several times now. I finally feel like he's really comfortable. He was the most comfortable for sure. Right, didn't you feel that way? Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, so I think it was by far the best just because of that because I didn't feel his, like every other time I felt nervous energy from him.

Starting point is 00:01:41 Right. And this I really felt like we all just fucking hung out, had a great good, deep conversation related to nutrition and all kinds of other stuff that I thought was really good. We got, yeah, we got Dr. Lane Norton on this one, whereas the other ones we talked more about personal stuff in his life and it was a good, yeah, the other ones I felt like we were kind of poking out of more. Although don't give me, don't worry, I still jabbed him plenty of times. You know, what's funny, the mutual respect that we have for him and vice versa is really

Starting point is 00:02:10 awesome. He is a good, generally a good person, honest person can be polarizing because he's very passionate and opinionated. But good information. And you know what? He talked about a lot of things that were mind-pup kind of ask in this episode. That's what I found very interesting. I talked about intuitive eating a little bit, you know,

Starting point is 00:02:30 and we talked a little bit of some stuff that we find kind of fast thing, but anyway, it was a really, really good episode. He came here with Holly, his girlfriend. She's not on this episode, but I did do a YouTube video with her discussing reverse dieting, because this is a fascinating topic. You know how to get your metabolism to essentially speed up, like get your body to burn more calories without gaining more body fat, which is a position I think a lot of people listening

Starting point is 00:02:58 would want to be in. But anyway, you can find Lane Norton on his own podcast. That's a physique science radio. His website is biolain.com. He's on Instagram, excuse me, at biolain, I believe. And I think that's pretty much it, right? We got the Holly video you just did, too, that's gonna be Dross. That's on MindPump TV. Right, if you guys, we still have people

Starting point is 00:03:21 that don't subscribe to the MindPump TV, which is on YouTube, that it's completely different content than what we put here. So I don't subscribe to the Mind Pump TV, which is on YouTube, that it's completely different content than what we put here. So I don't know if you know that. I think some people think that it's just mirroring. Different conversation. Yeah, we bring a lot of professionals on

Starting point is 00:03:33 to give their awesome gems and their like educates. That's right. And of course, I do want to mention, if you are interested in any of our maps, fitness programs, which are designed for specific goals, or if you're interested in like a nutrition guide or a fasting guide or how to do occlusion on your arms and legs properly, we have those all available as well. Those are all on our website, mindpumpmedia.com.

Starting point is 00:03:59 You can click on any of the programs and learn more about them. But without any further ado, here we are interviewing Dr. Lane Nordadjeev. We're all friends here. It's a safe space. It's a safe space. It is a very safe space. You guys who've never seen inside this show, like you're literally inside a box right now.

Starting point is 00:04:17 Yeah, well, you hear next door how loud it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Say what? You don't want it's all crazy next door? Why? It's bomb proof. Today's fucking what you're gonna call it. It's the... Memorial Day. Is it Murph? Oh, Murph you know, it's all crazy next door why it's bomb proof today's fucking what you call it It's the world is it murphy. Oh, that's why yeah, cuz it is say yes is day he passed you

Starting point is 00:04:33 I was so crazy next to him like they know I have five people over there right now There's like I see part of you know wonder those people wearing weight vests running out. Yeah That's part of it. Yeah, that's what they're doing. That's an awesome tribute actually. Oh, it's brilliant. It's brilliant. It's brilliant in my opinion. Did you guys read the book? No.

Starting point is 00:04:52 Oh man. Like the movie was good, but the book was awesome. Was it better? Loan Survivor? Yeah. Oh, you're talking about that? Oh, Loan Survivor. Oh, that's not.

Starting point is 00:05:03 That's Marcus LaTrell. No, I know it is, but I believe. Oh, loons. Oh, that's not mercy. So that's not mercy. That's Marcus LaTrell. No, I know it is, but I believe. Oh, I forgot that's my favorite book, bro. The guy who died, that was, I believe that was Murphy. Oh, was it? Was it his best friend? Was that my thosso?

Starting point is 00:05:15 I thought so. Maybe I got it wrong. That's a good quote. You know what, I don't know if that's the same guy or not. That's, I don't know that. Now that's gonna bug me. There you go. Yeah, look at that.

Starting point is 00:05:24 Look that up, that's fine now. Cause if I'm talking shit, I don't want to disrespect anybody No, no, I don't think it's disrespecting no matter what because I mean it's a tribute to them and that talk about that's my favorite all-time book I have a it's a fucking great book. It says how the event has grown. You're gonna have to scroll up there. Oh that is him Yeah, no shit. You're all right, dude. Did I have I've always like you're Memory I'm kind of a dude. Dude, I have, I've, all these like, you're, when it comes to memory, I'm, I'm kind of a freak. Yeah, I feel like, I feel you. Yeah. I, I have a really photographic memory.

Starting point is 00:05:49 I just remember. For things you care about though, right? Yeah, and just random shit. Yeah. Like, I was like, they don't really teach history in Australian schools that much. So like, I was giving her a whole history lesson of like, why World War One and World War Two started. Probably because Australia wasn't really involved. Yeah, actually, you know, they're SAS.

Starting point is 00:06:07 They're actually pretty badass. Like there's special forces are actually legit. Oh, for sure. But they were involved. It's just, you know, in the Pacific theater, it's just that, you know, a country of 23 with the same population as the state of Florida. Exactly. You only do so much.

Starting point is 00:06:22 Exactly. Like, and they're pretty laid back in the head. They had some fun mate. We know, you know, a lot of fun can kill each other. They had some boomerang attacks that really got suited. We called them cozy points. Some injury dude. Battles.

Starting point is 00:06:36 Hey, I love the Australian, so let's be honest. They're actually big fans of our show. I think it's because we cuss and we are humor. Yeah. That's what I love about them is you can there's nothing inappropriate. They say cunt all the time. Yeah. Okay.

Starting point is 00:06:51 So I've worked a lot of people at St. So Holly, Holly debates this, but Holly is a very, Holly is like a very proper person like when she, she cussed this more and now that she's been around me, but she's like a very pro, she's like, oh no, people don't say cunt that much. I'm like, barely. Like, she's like, well, maybe they're really feral people. She uses feral.

Starting point is 00:07:09 Cause you know, like gangster. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know, babe. When I went over there, everybody was like, ah, you fucking sick. God. Yeah. It's so funny because over here, that word is like, if you say that word, like, you'll get need in the balls. Correct. It stopped. It's almost. It's almost like a racist word. Like it's almost like a word you just, pretty soon we'll just say the C word.

Starting point is 00:07:30 You know what I mean? I can't say it. But in England and Australia, I had our English friend and every other word was con, I thought it was great. That was wonderful. For those of us that we can actually say this, just because we're actually talking about other people

Starting point is 00:07:42 who say it, so it's totally fine. Although I start quite to level right? It's because you know you still don't you still don't feel okay repeating the inward. No, I mean like you know, feel safe. No, but anybody see here's a thing anybody can be a cunt. So it's not it's not discriminatory at all. Yeah, you know what I mean like white black women. I feel like you can argue that with any word.

Starting point is 00:08:02 They're all made up anyways, dude. Yeah, they're all made up words anyway. I love that a moment. It's just words, man. It is. It's just fucking words, dude. Where did they come from, bro? You know, you're sat and thought about that?

Starting point is 00:08:16 Have you watched a monk debates yet? Monk debates. Oh, you've never seen that channel? You get interviews with that. Oh, you love that shit, bro. You will like it. Bro, they take controversial subjects, and then they take two experts from either side

Starting point is 00:08:28 and have them debate, but very intelligently. And so, like, I watched about 40 minutes of one last night where it was about religion. Is religion more of a good force in the world or bad or something like that? And on one side, you had Tony Blair, who used to be the prime minister of the UK, who was also like a devout Catholic.

Starting point is 00:08:48 And then he had Christopher Hitchens. This is before he passed away. He's the author of, God is not great or something like that or whatever. Anyway, it's a fascinating platform. Really with cool stuff, you'd probably, and you'd like it. Yeah, that's so subjective.

Starting point is 00:09:04 You know, I'd probably err on the side of, I think it's probably caused more harm. Oh, you think so? I disagree. Yeah. Listen, I could be swayed, you know, because for some people, like, I think on an individual, so I think a person is usually pretty smart. I think people tend to be fucking dumb. If you know what I mean, like groups of people, you're right.

Starting point is 00:09:23 Oh, I hear what you're saying. Really dumb decisions, you're right. You're right, you're right, you're group mind. Yeah, so like, but individual, I think I've seen a lot of individuals whose religion has made a really positive impact in their life, you know, because for me,

Starting point is 00:09:36 and I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it's just how I'm wired. Like I don't need the idea of an afterlife to think that I should be a good person and live a good life, because it's just like, to me, it's like if you don't have anything afterwards, then it's fucking even more important that you do really well with this one, right? But for some people, that kind of makes them despondent, and the idea of something after that is what motivates them, or even just a relationship with God.

Starting point is 00:10:00 Well, I think it's important that you, that people, because I was, at one point I was atheist and I think it's important for, I'm not anymore, but I think it's important for people to understand that they're, they're basis of morality as much as they'd like to say it's not based in religion. The truth, the reality is if you grow up in Western society and you say, look, I'm ethical and moral, those foundations came from in our Western societies from a Judeo-Christian background. So like the concept of individual liberty, that is 100% a Judeo-Christian creation and the concept of do-on-to- others and treat people nicely and all that stuff.

Starting point is 00:10:46 Because if we didn't have that and the evidence for this is the 20th century, if we don't have that foundation, humans do crazy shit, the terrible stuff. What's one of the first things that totalitarian regimes do when they take control, they get rid of religion. They get rid of religion.

Starting point is 00:11:02 The fascists did this with Hitler and Mussolini and the communists did this with, you know, Mao of China and Stalin. And they eliminate that because we, and you can't, this is the thing, you can't separate like human nature from, because I hate it when we think like we can eliminate human nature. Human nature clearly shows that we need to believe in something. So when you eliminate religion, then people tend to worship other things like money, sex, drugs, work, science.

Starting point is 00:11:34 Waiting for the bad part. I'm just kidding. Just kidding. Just kidding. But anyway, it's a great platform. I fucking love it. I could see you going on there debating someone, you know, in fitness and health or something like that.

Starting point is 00:11:49 But that's why we have Twitter. Yeah, right. We're trying to get Sal into that. Don't you feel like he fits really well in Twitter scene? I actually think that Twitter is the most difficult social media in terms of you have to, you know, if you want to be intelligent, you have to, like, you have to be entertaining, intelligent, and do that in, well now it's 280 characters, right? So that most people

Starting point is 00:12:13 can't condense their thoughts down to that, but still retain the integrity of what they're trying to say. I feel like I'm pretty good on Twitter. Now I use fuck a lot, like I use the F word. Actually, somebody that a day was like You really like like Everybody's saying that I was you know not intelligent because I use the f-word like actually The research says the people who are intelligent tend to curse more not less. Well, it's I'm just I'm just the one that can do it because I don't have a boss. I'm my own boss So I can say fuck all I love my job. I say fuck all the time fuck fuck fuck I got a question for you. Who are you responding to? Which is just a regular person on Twitter? Um, so not always

Starting point is 00:12:50 They just fucking crushes the 12 year old. I feel like you don't like a lot of good lessons thrown at you the same lessons And you don't learn them like stop engaging with these trolls fuck What what what for a lot? lot well, it's good for business though. I would think because it attracts attention people people Let's be honest people thrive off of the drama I mean it's you I don't care everybody in here is seen fucking Mori Povitch and Ricky Lake You and fucking Jerry Springer like we've all watched it before no matter if you think it's trash TV or not You tune into it because people want to see drama Yeah, I do so I want to know who the fuck if you can find a way to educate through that I think there's trash TV or not, you tune into it because people want to see drama. Yeah, they do. So I want to know who the fuck is.

Starting point is 00:13:25 If you can find a way to educate through that, I think there's some value to it. Well, that's, I realize that like when you're debating somebody who's already got their mind made up, you're not changing their mind. What I'm doing it for is like, the people who are watching. My buddy, who's my buddy Ed, who's into guns,

Starting point is 00:13:38 like he always says, when he gets into debate on Facebook about guns, he's not trying to change that person's opinion. He's just hoping that there's somebody who's watching who's maybe in the middle about stuff and maybe he can change their opinion. That's how I look at it when I'm doing, like I don't actually think, you know,

Starting point is 00:13:53 I was debating with them. You know, it's interesting. Every camp has kind of a zealotry. You talk about people wanting to belong to something. So we worship other things. That's all tribal. People, yeah, humans are tribal. So like I can give a great example of that of that happening to me like so I'm a gun guy you guys libertarian and I I I was an in our A member for a

Starting point is 00:14:19 while and I don't have any problem with the NRA I mean I think in a way it's kind of a necessary evil to not evil, but kind of balance out the anti-gun legislation that's out there. Because if the NRA wasn't around, we probably would already had all the guns taken away. So, but like there is a certain narrative that goes along with being an NRA member that doesn't just have to do with guns. It's almost like a lifestyle of conservatism, right?

Starting point is 00:14:47 And I found myself kind of being like, starting to agree with more stuff that I didn't really actually agree with. Do you know what I mean? Like because I felt being part of that group. And then I had to kind of check myself, and be like, well, I'm fucking believe that. What am I, what am I talking about?

Starting point is 00:15:00 Yes, pro guns, but fuck that thing. But I can see how people get sucked into that, right? So, I've, what I've found is like, I've kind of gone back, okay, what's the worst? The anti-artificial sweetener, zealots, no fence cell. They, no, cells not a zealot. No. The, the vegans, the, the low carb, I gotta tell ya, I find the low carb zealots, probably the most annoying. Well that's just because it's right now.

Starting point is 00:15:33 Right now the ketogenic diet is like the fucking, oh, they're so sure of themselves. Well it's because of what's coming. It's what we're seeing right now in the last year or two. Yeah, that's what you know what strengthens it? The reason why they're directing that way. Well, two things. First off, when people start to, Joe Rogan, when people start to dissolve,

Starting point is 00:15:52 we'll go there in a second. If you want. When people start to dissolve their individualism for collectivism, that's when you see people becoming zealots and starting to adopt what other people believe, even though they don't necessarily believe it themselves. Like, if the label conservatism means you feel this way about all these different things, liberal means you have to

Starting point is 00:16:12 feel and people will end up putting themselves in that box because they start to adopt that collectivist mentality. Very dangerous. It's a very dangerous thing to do, but with low carb, part of the reason why they're so strong in their position or there's a lot of zealotry there, is because I feel like they're countering decades of shitty information when it comes to fat.

Starting point is 00:16:34 You know what I mean? So it's like, if you want to strengthen zealotry, the best thing you could possibly do is hit it with force or lots of, and then they'll just hunker down in their position. Yeah there's actually a study done that looked it was for political stuff but it showed that whether you gave someone evidence that supported their belief or counted their belief both were equally effective in strengthening their belief in that thing right. So like one of

Starting point is 00:17:03 the things I pride myself on is I think I'm relatively open-minded. Nobody's completely open-minded and you probably shouldn't be because otherwise you just buy into everything, right? So one of my favorite things is be open-minded but not so open-minded that your brain falls out, you know? Or stand for something or you'll fall for anything. Yeah, I mean, so you know, you've always kind of, I kind of got myself a little bit painted into the IAFIM account macros thing, but the reason I do that is because I think it's, if you just restrict calories

Starting point is 00:17:34 or track your macros, you're 90% of the way there for most stuff. Now, am I saying that you can get the same health benefits by eating absolute garbage foods that you can get the same health benefits by doing you know eating absolute garbage foods as you can by eating Single ingredient whole foods nutrient rich. No, I'm not saying that but I think most people would get a would get really damn far Just doing that that's debatable Sure it is it's debatable. I at 90% is strong number to say that I Would I would it well? I would argue argue that the piece that's most neglected that people

Starting point is 00:18:06 don't talk about enough is the psychological piece. 100% I think that that's 90%. I think the macros is 10% or 9% and then everything else is 1%. That's what I think. Well, think about this one. I think so much is the psychological piece that anybody can follow something. Well, here, here, let's look at this way, Why are why do why do why would I for example recommend whole foods versus process food? strap on we're about to go down the rabbit hole. Let's do it. Let's stop in stop it Well

Starting point is 00:18:38 We've been doing A little bit of a fruity and stuff. We just had to holly like this. Oh god, Jimmy's on best. He's got strong hips, I started deadlift. Wow, we're not even 10 minutes in here. I thought you walked out and waked his mobility was bad. So, no, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so not overeat when your diet is comprised of these foods. And so the psychological piece is so important.

Starting point is 00:19:25 Like if I tell someone, look, dramatically reduce your processed food intake, what's likely gonna happen. And by the way, this is from experience. So I don't know if there's any studies done on this specific topic. This is just on my own experience. When people reduce their processed food intake, they tend to eat less because it's easy

Starting point is 00:19:41 to eat 2,000 calories of potato chips. It's hard to eat 2,000 calories of plain white baked potato without salt or butter, you know what I'm saying? And I completely agree with you on that. Like, so this is this thing when I get these debates on Twitter, I'll end up going around to do we're actually arguing the same thing. Yeah. So the problem I probably low-carb solids is they they they'll say things

Starting point is 00:20:03 reasonable like, oh oh well it helps with satiety and people tend to eat less. That is actually satiety depends to be pretty individual. There's some people who actually do better with higher carb lower fat. However, it looks like low carb on the whole tends to be a little do a little bit better. It tends to do a little bit better. And what I'll tell people is that is a perfectly reasonable reason to do low carb Absolutely 100% if that helps you like Like be more cognizant and reduce your intake

Starting point is 00:20:31 By all means do low carb, but don't tell me it's magic because it's not magic and don't shake shit like calories Don't count like when you start saying dumb shit like that. I'm gonna call you on it Yeah, I'm not call you on it. I'm not anti-low car, you guys know me. I have some people who do low carb. I have some people who do keto, right? Because that's what they actually enjoy. But just don't tell me it is magic.

Starting point is 00:20:57 Because if you do that, then I'm gonna call you on it. And that's, that is more, so I was on mixed mental arts a few weeks ago. I really enjoyed that part. Is that what Brian Callan, yeah. Oh, fucking great guy. Really enjoyed that part. Okay.

Starting point is 00:21:10 Yeah, he, he, he actually said he had a man crush on me by the end, which was nice. Oh, very good. It's so pretty. Cause I'll be honest, like I booked the podcast to be blatantly honest, not even knowing who Brian Callan was. Oh, shit, you didn't know that.

Starting point is 00:21:23 Yeah, I, well, I'd heard the name, you know, but got on there and I'm like, what is dude, looks fucking familiar. So I'm like googling on my phone while I'm doing the podcast. So I did that podcast while I had food poisoning. Like literally had thrown up two hours before I did that podcast. Oh, nice.

Starting point is 00:21:38 And I kind of told them, hey, yeah, you may not get my best effort, but I fucking pulled it together on the gamer. And we had a great podcast, but one of the things we talked about is he said, well, you know, he was kind of arguing a little bit more from the, from the, you know, calories don't count so much as, you know, if I, he's like, if I tell somebody, oh, eat less processed foods, increase your, your fat intake, decrease your carbohydrate intake XYZ That person will lose weight and I said yeah, absolutely probably will

Starting point is 00:22:15 But because they reduced the calorie intake right you I've I have seen it I have done experiments on it you can overfeed with keto and get somebody to gain body fat of course 100% so like I said it's now 100% so like I said it's now Honestly, I would feel like you can only eat so much basically pure lard before you just feel like Probably sight more psychological than anything would you just feel gross? Yeah, well, dude, you know what happened to me because I eat Relatively low carb most of the time not all the time but most of it just works better for me and it feels better

Starting point is 00:22:40 but I also sometimes go very very hard keto especially when I come out of a fast. And something that I just learned recently, we had Dr. Michael Ruscio on the show, he's a gut health specialist, brilliant guy, you should have him on your show, he's a real smart dude. And he talked about histamine intolerance and how some people with gut issues can develop issues where their bodies just not getting rid of histamine fast enough, especially when they're consuming foods that are really high in histamine or that not getting rid of histamine fast enough, especially when they're consuming foods that are really high in histamine

Starting point is 00:23:07 or that cause a release of histamine. And those foods include things like avocado, bacon, beef jerky, peanuts, the foods that I eat all the fucking time. And I was noticing these interesting effects where I was getting kind of brain fog. I wasn't feeling great. I crashed after eating with my energy.

Starting point is 00:23:25 And it took some time, but it started happening. Like, what's going on? Why am I feeling this way? So we talked about histamine intolerance and really there's no way to test for it, except for remove the foods, see what happens, and then maybe supplement with... Not a gut health issues like that, elimination diet,

Starting point is 00:23:41 if you would get it. And so I did, I eliminated all these highest-to-mean foods, and I feel way fucking better. And so it just goes to show you like, there's so much individualized, there's so much of an individual variance with nutrition. It's insane. What works well for one person,

Starting point is 00:23:58 you have to take a fingerprint, especially when you look at the gut flora, and then the emotional connections to food, and you add all that shit up, it's like, you can say general, you can give people general advice and part of that general advice is, yeah, you gotta take in less calories in your burn, you're not gonna lose weight.

Starting point is 00:24:16 That's actually a law of physics. I mean, if you could get around that, I mean, we need to study that because you've just discovered like a way to create something out of nothing. Well, people get confused because people will say things like, well, I don't believe in calories and calories out because I was in a calorie deficit, I didn't lose weight. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no go online and put into a calculator what their deficit should be and they'll do that and not lose

Starting point is 00:24:45 weight. Well, I'm sorry, that means it wasn't your deficit. Okay. So basically we know what makes up calories in versus calories out, right? So we know calories in is literally just the energy we eat that goes in. Pretty simple. What is more complex is the calories outside the very complex. So you have while the concept is very simple What makes up Calories out is a very complicated and we don't fully understand and it's individual too by the way Oh, yeah, so like your RMR for most people is the bulk of their is about 60% of your your daily total energy expenditure Then you have neat which is very modifiable, up to, it seems like around 500 calories a day,

Starting point is 00:25:28 possibly even more than that. I think probably more than that in extreme circumstances. And that's non-exercise adapted thermogenesis. So basically like fidgeting and- Just your movement that's working out. Walking cleaning. Yeah, non-voluntary movement, non-purposeful, non-voluntary movement, non-purposeful, non-voluntary movement.

Starting point is 00:25:45 And then your, obviously, your exercise and then your thermic effect to food. Most of those are modifiable. We all know somebody who does two hours on the treadmill every day and can't seem to lose weight, even though they say, well, I burned 2000 calories. Well, I actually know you didn't. Your body, look at marathon runners, some marathon runners, I've seen marathon runners who eat 2000 calories a day. Let's talk about this.

Starting point is 00:26:07 And maintain their weight. Because they're so efficient. Yeah, metabolic adaptation is fascinating. They did a study on modern hunter gatherers, the Hodgson tribe. It's HADZA and you can look this up and we'll make sure to put it in the show notes. But they, and they used very sophisticated means to test how many calories these people were burning on a regular basis. There were several tests that they compiled in generated average from.

Starting point is 00:26:31 Now they went into, the researchers went into the study, fully expecting that these modern hunter-gatherers burned way more calories in the average westerners. They thought for sure they're going to be burning like two or three times as many calories because, and this is a, it's totally plausible. This hypothesis is totally understandable. You're looking at these people, you see how active they are, how much they walk, how much they run, they hunt, they cook, versus the average westerner who basically sits down all they long.

Starting point is 00:26:59 What they found was far more fascinating. They burned just a little bit more calories than the average Westerner. Now, that sounds crazy because of all the movement that they're doing, but it makes fucking sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Of course it does. Of course your body's gonna become efficient

Starting point is 00:27:15 because food is scarce in real life. And what I mean by real life is without the modern advancements of what there it is right there. Very, very fascinating. They didn't burn that many more calories. Metabolic adaptation is insane, and that's this is perfect way to segue into reverse dieting because I know early on,

Starting point is 00:27:34 you got a lot of heat for talking about this, and you might still be getting heat. So let's talk about this for a second. What is reverse dieting? The long McDonald's favorite person in the world. Yeah, what is reverse dieting? And whatondon McDonald's favorite person in the world. Yeah. Highly-ly-al. What is reverse dieting and what is, like, how does it work? Or at least what are the results of reverse dieting? So, you know me, I'm not very good at being concise,

Starting point is 00:27:53 but I'll do my best to be concise. So, basically, what I had started to notice with people was that, especially, you know, I worked with a lot of competitors. But I see this with the average person too. I started to realize how big this was for the average person. Competitors are just an extreme version of it. Right, correct.

Starting point is 00:28:11 I had, especially women, because they tend to just diet more than men. People don't realize, dieting will fuck you up. Like, go read some of McLean's work. Like, there's actually some really new research on the actual adipose cell that I'll get into later that's fucking fascinating. Um, what I noticed was people were like, they'd come to me and they were maintaining their weight on extremely low levels of calories. You know, stuff that didn't even make sense. And at first I was kind of like, all right, we'll just under reporting, you know.

Starting point is 00:28:44 And I would have them track and really track, you know, and some of them were, but a lot of them weren't. And some of these people are- Did this shatter your paradigm at the moment because you understood nutrition, you understood chemistry. Were you like, this is bulls' crazy. Well, I had never dealt with that myself, right? Well, we talked about this all the time.

Starting point is 00:29:00 It was the same experience for us. I mean, we all thought they were lying to us. It was like, my clients got to be lying to me. It was just making stuff. You're 300 pounds and you're telling me you eat two salads a day And you and you you you get into it and even if there is under reporting, you still can't possibly explain some of the stuff you're seeing and Yeah, it's just we'll look at let's just go with this. Let's look at bariatric surgery Have you ever seen somebody who had bariatric surgery who got really lean?

Starting point is 00:29:27 You don't see it. They lose weight, mostly, some actually, no. But they lose weight, but they stop at a certain point, even though they're consuming 900-1,000 calories a day. How? Well, while getting lean may seem great for looking good at the beach, it fucking sucks for survival. Your body does not give a shit about you being able to have a six pack. What it gives a damn about is you staying alive long enough to pass on your genetic material.

Starting point is 00:29:57 Hopefully numerous times based on evolution. But it being lean, if you're lean when famine hits, you're going to be the first motherfucker to go, right? So there's, I mean, you guys have probably talked about the 3.0GM hypothesis, right? But more so than that, what I had noticed was that people who tended to diet in a certain cyclical kind of diet cycle were in wayward shape in terms of metabolically than other people so people who tended to crash diet or fat diet or

Starting point is 00:30:32 Just spend a lot of their time in a in a calculated deficit Without giving themselves enough time to recover metabolically Those were the people who did really bad and though people who did the worst or people who basically would diet for long periods of time and then some event would hit whether it be a show or wedding whatever they're always dieting for something and they would basically binge eat their way back up to or their previous weight or more right and these people would be very overweight or more than what they'd want. And would have like incredibly low intakes

Starting point is 00:31:09 for their weight and lean body mass. It just wouldn't make sense. Now, the heat I got was basically mostly from law, McDonald, who just kept pointing out, who just kept, you know, harping on the fact that, well, the studies show that metabolic adaptations only 15% that your BMR is only modifiable through 15%, which I think is an average,

Starting point is 00:31:28 is probably right. But if an average is 15%, then that means there's outliers who are 35% and 40%. My friend Chris Foss, he did a case study on himself on that. He was the first natural bodybuilding contest prep case study. Chris is a big dude. Chris is probably like 85 kilos of lean body mass.

Starting point is 00:31:47 For a natural guy, that's a big dude. And he did a contest prep 24 weeks. I prepped them for it. And, you know, so even this is doing things like very controlled, not crash-died and whatnot. He started out, his BMR was 2400 calories a day. You know what his BMR was by the end? 1285.

Starting point is 00:32:06 Wow. 1285. Now he's probably an outlier. He was very, I noticed, his metabolism adapted very quickly. So that goes to the point what Ben Pukolsky talked to us about the benefits of guys that are bodybuilders' size. We made a comment on an interview we did with him about how in order to be like this,

Starting point is 00:32:25 Olympian bodybuilder, you've got to have these freak genetics, the steroids, the hard training, all of it together, and then, South brought up the point, the ability to eat tons of food in order to support all that muscle, and Ben actually corrected him and he goes, no, it's not that, it's actually the other way, it's that you have the ability to hang on to that much muscle

Starting point is 00:32:42 with his little calories as you need possibly. Yeah, yeah, it made sense, because I'm like like how can you eat 10,000 calories a day? And he's like no, no, it's being able eat like 4,000 calories a day and still get the spec yeah and and and efficiency Mm-hmm, right? So You know you looked at Chris when you when you took out like The difference in movement and the difference in his his lean body mass and whatnot. It was like a 33% metabolic adaptation, which so metabolic adaptation is basically long time ago. And one of the things that my PhD advisor, Donald Laman, brilliant man, was actually wrong

Starting point is 00:33:16 about those was he told me he told me he thought that the decrease in metabolic rate from dieting and from age was simply due to loss of lean body mass. And I disagreed with him at the time, but there just wasn't much research on it. Now we know the research and it says that yes, your metabolic rate does slow down from just overall, you know, dropping mass. But metabolic adaptation, it's always more than you would predict by that. And metabolic adaptation is that difference. How much more do you, does your metabolism slow down,

Starting point is 00:33:45 than predicted by your loss of lean body mass and body fat? There's so much more to it that we currently understand. Lean body mass plays a role and it plays a large role, but there's a lot of unknowns and it's fascinating because look, here's a deal. This is why I don't like studies that show, 015% is really the, where metabolic adaptation can happen

Starting point is 00:34:09 and that's what it looks like. Here's a deal, we know how efficient the body can get. We have studies on POWs who survive on a 100 to 200 to 300 calories of fucking day for decades. You know, now that's an extreme case, but the body can really become efficient. I also know through experience, and here's a deal.

Starting point is 00:34:30 This is why I think it's... Look at our exics. Look at our exics. So survive for a long periods of time with very little calories. Yeah, 500 calories a day. And here's my beef with scientists. I love science.

Starting point is 00:34:42 I love information. I love knowledge. But knowledge without experience is not, it's just ideas and information. Wisdom comes from combining the two. And many times experience will show you things that we don't necessarily have the information to explain, but I can tell you as a trainer,

Starting point is 00:34:59 having worked with thousands of clients and having been done this for 20 years, that I took, look, I had a client, I told this show, so I was, we were on Tom Billiw's health impact, which is his channel on YouTube. And I told, and I told this, and I told this story, and I got a little bit heat from it from people, because I knew people would freak out over it.

Starting point is 00:35:19 But I had a client who was running 20 miles a week, barely doing any resistance training. She was consuming like 16 or 1700 calories a day, which if you consider all her activity was not that much. And I changed her workout, changed her approach, and by the end of it, she was consuming almost 2400 calories a day. She was still working out a lot, but she wasn't running nearly as much. And she was leaner. And you can do that. You can do that with your body, but it's... Yeah, let's talk about anecdote a little bit.

Starting point is 00:35:46 Yeah, let's get into that, because I think, and I know I've seen a little bit of like, you know, the tension in the trolling a bit on the pseudoscience is out there and pervades, you know, the industry, but, you know, is there any value to that from a scientific perspective? I mean, so like getting back, I never answered your question about diversiting.

Starting point is 00:36:07 Without the rabbit hole. We'll get there. You know, in reverse dieting is just basically slow, controlled additions of calories to raise metabolic rate while hopefully minimizing body fat gain. But I have seen and observed, I mean, I had one girl who went from,

Starting point is 00:36:26 I'm not kidding you, I remember carbon fat intakes. I don't remember calories necessarily. But I had one girl who went from 120 grams of carbs per day and like 45 grams of fat to over 300 grams of carbohydrates intake and 70 grams of fat and lost 10 pounds during that time period. And okay, yes, maybe she changed the resistance training. That does not make up for the calories that were added in.

Starting point is 00:36:51 Holly, Holly was, she just started a reverse dieting. She's, I think, 11 weeks in. She started at 1,400 calories. She's up to over 2,000, has not gained any weight. And her training has actually been less. So she's doing more powerlifting based training, she went from more bodybuilding style, which supersets a lot of volume to more intensity,

Starting point is 00:37:15 less volume, longer rest between sets, and almost no cardio. Which by the way, do you advise that when I reverse diet somebody, I actually like to switch them from, because typically people are training in the more hypertrophy-based training and supersetting and that's what they've done or height circuit type training to lose weight. So switching them over to a strength-based program while I'm also adding calories tends to do really well.

Starting point is 00:37:40 I think this is that psychological component especially for women. If you can shift their focus from, oh my god, I'm fat, I want to lose this weight to, holy shit, this is cool about how strong I'm getting, right? Even though they're not losing weight, maybe gaining a little bit, they become more and more okay with it because they see the positives of strength training and getting stronger, right? And that becomes addictive as opposed to trying to lose weight, right? So I think that's that psychological component.

Starting point is 00:38:06 And yes, that can be really helpful. But yeah, I mean, like you're gonna sit there and tell me that, like, Holly gained five kilos of lean body mass and that explains the difference in her. No, it doesn't. Like, and she's not moving more. Like I'm with her every day. We're literally sitting in an office every day.

Starting point is 00:38:22 Like our activity is the same. You know, and maybe she does fidget more and I don't see it, but at the end of the day, who gives a damn if it's fidgeting or if it's an increase in BMR because it's still enables her to eat more food. So when she goes to diet back down next time, it's going to be much easier because she's only, you know, four kilos above stage weight. That's going to be a lot easier to lose than when she was maintaining your body weight on 1600 calories a day trying to crush herself to lose that weight. What I found is the perfect combination because I do think that a structured, you know, targeted resistance training routine should be combined with reverse dieting because not

Starting point is 00:39:01 necessarily because you need the extra lean body mass. Like you said, that doesn't account for all of it. But I do think when you're asking your body to adapt in a way that makes it quote unquote less efficient with calories and you start feeding it more, you're gonna get a better effect than if you don't do that and you just feed someone more, in which case you may actually get someone

Starting point is 00:39:19 just gaining more body fat. And resistance training does that because when you're asking the body to get stronger, it's not worried about efficiency. It needs thicker muscle fibers to produce more force. When you're asking your body to become to gain more stamina and endurance, you're asking for it to become,

Starting point is 00:39:37 you don't need big muscle fibers for that. You don't need big muscle, lot of force for endurance. You just need muscle fibers that can contract repeatedly for long periods of time. But you also are asking your body to become more efficient a lot of force for endurance. You just need muscle fibers that can contract repeatedly for long periods of time. But you also are asking your body to become more efficient because let's be honest,

Starting point is 00:39:50 an hour of resistance training for strength burns what, a third of the calories of an hour of cardio. And your body's gonna try and become efficient with the, because you're burning so many calories manually. And so that's what ends up happening. Now, I've also heard this and I agree with it. Does that mean it's healthy? Like in other words, is it healthy to get your body

Starting point is 00:40:12 to want to burn more calories? I don't think so. Now, I'm not using context here yet. So I'm gonna get there in just a second, but. I know what you're getting at. Yeah, I don't think it's healthier because obviously more potential for inflammation, you're processing more food, there's more things happening in the body, lower calories,

Starting point is 00:40:28 over long periods of time, seems to be better for longevity and also, but in the context of modern life, you want a fast metabolism. Well, so two things, a lot of stuff's done to wrap there, but you know, the calorie restriction component of longevity doesn't seem to be as clear a cut as we made it out to be. Seems to be really beneficial in animals.

Starting point is 00:40:51 The human data just doesn't support it. Yeah, now it's hard to get really super controlled studies and I know who they'll acknowledge that. They'll acknowledge these days. Keep in mind, two things I want to point out. So going back, Greg Knuckles, you guys know Greg Knuckles? I know the name. Follow him and have him on your podcast at some point.

Starting point is 00:41:11 He's fabulous. Okay. He said something that I thought was really, really important. He said, sciencey science bros, so there's two mistakes that people tend to make. Sciencey science bros tend to make the mistake that because something reported in a study is an average, right? That's what it's reported. They assume that the average will work for everyone. Bros tend to make the mistake of this

Starting point is 00:41:35 one thing worked for me so it will work for everyone. The reality is is that we should probably start with the average is the most high probability to work for most people, but we also need to acknowledge that something will likely work better for somebody else. I mean, there's studies in resistance training where they show people do 12 weeks of resistance training and don't get stronger, who are untrained, right? Outliers, right? There's also studies that show people never pick up a barbell and in 12 weeks, they're squatting 400 pounds, right? There's also studies that show people never pick up a barbell and in 12 weeks they're squatting 400 pounds, right? So there's hyper responders for everything.

Starting point is 00:42:11 The other thing is with the, you know, calories and longevity and health, you have to, I think we need to keep in mind that it's like, think about your time, right? So we have to acknowledge that if we want to do this podcast, we're taking time away from something else we could be doing. Spending time with family, going out and doing something fun, although this is fun, you know, bowling, whatever, right? So we're taking some time, we're putting it towards this, it's taking away from something else. If something is, I think we kind of have this idea that we're taking some time, we're putting it towards this, it's taking away from something else. If something is, I think we kind of have this idea that we're gonna be able to find this diet that's

Starting point is 00:42:54 great for preventing cancer, great for preventing cardiovascular disease. Good for gut health, all the facts of the matter is if you're on something that maybe prevents cardiovascular disease, it might not be the best thing for cancer. People don't want to acknowledge that, but it probably is true. If you want something with the optimal water composition, it might not be the best thing for longevity. If you want something for the best gut health, it might not be the best thing for cardiovascular disease. For sure, the best thing for longevity is not the best thing for performance. For sure.

Starting point is 00:43:20 So, we need to have an honest conversation and acknowledge that. And what is your goal, right? So, these people that, most of these dudes who, like, I've had this debate on Twitter recently, who are promoting like a low carb lifestyle, like, well, you just talk about macros, you don't talk about overall health. I'm like, all right, we'll find, let's talk about overall health,

Starting point is 00:43:38 and let's talk about how you're eating, okay? Because there's evidence that keto, the best for longevity either, bro. You know, so, it's, what are we talking about? We talking about body keto ate the best for longevity, either, bro. You know, so it's, what are we talking about? We're talking about body composition. We're talking about performance. We're talking about longevity. Because I can tell you what's best for longevity.

Starting point is 00:43:54 Lift weights modestly. Walk. Do some cardiovascular exercise. Do some calorie restriction. And stay at about 15 to 20% body fat. fat or well 15% body fat if you're a male 20, 25, you're a female. People want to be ripped. They don't hear that right? So you know to make a metabolism inefficient right that means you're having to cycle through more energy metabolism that the idea of creating more ATP, more dissipation of energy, that creates

Starting point is 00:44:28 more redox species, more inflammation, that sort of thing. Now, I will say, I think that it's a big difference between giving a very controlled dose of a stressor and controlled overfeeding versus somebody who's just sitting on the couch banging down potato chips. Huge difference. Of course. I think that most people, if you're doing resistance training and you're just controlling your diet, right, does that make sense, even if it's overfeeding, but controlling your diet, you still be a pretty darn healthy person and probably live to a ripe old age, barring,

Starting point is 00:45:00 you know, random shit. What point are we overworking the digestive system? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. you know, random shit. Sure, at what point are we overworking the digestive system? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Because I think that has to be a point that's made too. Because every other system we can over train, over work, out do, over stress. You know, you know what I think, I think that the,

Starting point is 00:45:16 there is some population studies that suggest that calorie restriction, long periods time, contributes to longevity, but there's a lot of stuff in there to unpack. There's a lot of factors. I think part is, what about the fact that, so the idea with making our metabolism more inefficient is so that at some point, we can calorie restrict,

Starting point is 00:45:35 and it's more effective for body composition. So what I'm not saying is always overfeed. I'm saying, you know, because dieting, I've seen people diet their way into fatness, all right? So is that really healthier? No, not at all. So we say, I know exactly what we're talking about. I saw that all the time. But what I was going to say is I think where we see the health benefits of restricting calories may not come necessarily from restricting calories, although there are some benefits

Starting point is 00:46:03 of that as well. I think it comes from- Now the body responds to that. We're just the absence of food, like fasting. Now, you want to look at the science and fasting, and what that's saying in terms of longevity, anti-cancer, anti-inflammatory, all that stuff, that's fucking fascinating. When you want to look at, you know,

Starting point is 00:46:19 being able to switch in and out of ketosis very easily and how ketosis has some medical applications, humans probably went into ketosis very easily and how ketosis has some medical applications. Humans probably went into ketosis on and off all the time. You go without food for 24 hours, 48 hours, which probably happened quite a bit. You're in ketosis, right? Some people go into ketosis when they go to sleep, just just happens. That's where I think some of the health benefits come from.

Starting point is 00:46:42 Some of the detriment of overfeeding ourselves too many calories, wrong foods, all that stuff, I get all that, but I think the other side of it is, we eat all the time, all the time. Like, most people who grow up in these modern, developed Western societies never went without food for longer than 18 hours. And what we're learning now is that maybe

Starting point is 00:47:06 Dr. Walter Lungo says it's another operating system that's necessary that we tap into where we go without food sometimes. I do it semi-regularly and I do enjoy lots of benefits from it, but I think that maybe were the benefit where they see the longevity effects of restricted calories is the fact that people go without, because we just feed ourselves all the fucking time.

Starting point is 00:47:28 Think about that. Yeah, I think controlled periods of underfeeding are very important. I think you get a lot of the benefits from that. I think why I say you gotta be careful is because, while I was doing research for my book that I wrote, we talked about in the last podcast, the Contest Prep book, it was basically, I just did a lot of research on dieting and the dieting studies that are out there.

Starting point is 00:47:55 And actually, I'll probably do an updated version of the book because I just found some new shit, like really recently out of University of Denver. The structural changes and the metabolic changes in the adipose tissue from dieting is fucking fascinating. So like how? Absolutely. Fasting. Yeah, I'm gonna get I'm gonna go down the rabbit hole with you guys. So we used to think about adipose tissue as it was just basically like a sponge right. Eight too much it soaked it up. You didn't eat enough, it's padded out, and it was just an energy reserve. Adipose tissue is an organ.

Starting point is 00:48:30 It fits every definition of an organ. It's to create its own hormones. It integrates hormonal signals. It talks to other organs. It talks to the brain a lot and the gut. It interacts with the immune system through the central nervous system. Hell yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:44 I mean, it's adipocines, our cytokines, secreted by adipose tissue, right? So what they found is that dieting places a stress on the extracellular matrix of adipose tissue, which by the way is not uniform throughout the body. Different depots of adipose have differential effects on things like metabolic rate and hunger. For example, when you're coming back out of a diet, regaining body fat, like recovering from a diet, say in the case of a contest prep competitor, a lot of people, and I don't know if you guys can speak to this, have noticed that they gain fat, differentially from how

Starting point is 00:49:20 they stored it before. You tend to regain it in your abdominal, in your trunk. You also tend to recover your lean body mass slowest in your trunk. The trunk abdominal fat seems to have a less beneficial effect on metabolic rate. And the trunk lean body mass has more has less has more impact on metabolic rate rate than extremely body mass. So you tend to regain lean body mass post diet in your extremities versus your trunk. And they find that you don't really recover your metabolic rate until you regain that in your trunk. In some studies. Yeah, very, very interesting. So so that's stress on the

Starting point is 00:50:02 extracellular matrix when you diet combined with the changes in your thyroid hormone and also the effects of leptin. So we think about leptin, you guys, I'm sure, very familiar with leptin. Controlled, we think, by the fat cell size. So as you diet, fat cell shrinks, secretes more leptin, makes you hungry, want to overfeed, get back up to your body fat set point. What's interesting is actually, it's also sensitive to the flux of energy across the cell. So if you overfeed, even for a short period of time, you'll increase leptin. Now, it's usually not high enough and of enough duration to cause a meaningful impact on long-term metabolic

Starting point is 00:50:47 rate. But in that phase of transition between ending a diet and beginning recovery or maintenance, your leptin levels and your adipose tissue is more responsive to short-term changes in energy intake than it is the long-term cell size of the adipose tissue. So if you rapidly overfeed, your body will actually respond more sensitively to that compared to, so for example, if you binge ate 5,000 calories at the end of a diet compared to being, haven't been dieting,

Starting point is 00:51:26 you know, just kind of maintenance or overfeeding. At least 300 every now and then. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're, you're, you're overfeed by 5,000 calories. You're much, much, much more likely to store excessive body fat when after you've been dieting. Not only that, you are likely to trigger the differentiation of the pre-adipocyte into a fully formed

Starting point is 00:51:46 adipocyte. So why is that important? Well, it makes it harder to get lean because now you're increasing your long-term fat storage depot potential. We used to think that pre-adipocyte differentiation into adipocytes only happened if you ate so much and you became so grossly obese that your body could no longer store it, right? You had to make new out of the sites. We're now finding that that's not the case. It's also a flux question. So if you've been very restricted for a while and

Starting point is 00:52:13 you rapidly overfeed, you can increase your fat cell number. So I didn't know that. This must be new because it is new. Wow, because it used to be like puberty, you know, third trimester pregnancy and that's kind of. So we also used to think that adipose tissue just sat that right? It was just a set cell number. Now we know that new adipocytes are being formed constantly and being an old adipocytes being turned over constantly. Okay? So it's now that that is very tightly regulated. It's almost always a net of zero. But when you restrict and you do it for a long period of time and more aggressive, you start to tip the scale

Starting point is 00:52:51 when you when you start to Add calories back in if you do it too aggressively you tip the scale towards formation of pre-edip site differentiation But also but still maintaining or lowering your elimination of old fat cells. Wow. So what's your idea or your theory then on that point then with like, carb cycling of doing it like kind of a short term like that? See, the question is we don't really know like, how long does this take to trigger? Right.

Starting point is 00:53:18 Can you do it in one meal or does it take 10 days or what is it? We don't really know. What we do know is that there was a rat study done by the same researcher that's Absolutely fascinating. So they took rats that were 700 grams and they died them down to 600 grams So they lost the seventh-thirty body weight which is reasonable for a lot of humans, right? You're talking about somebody go who's 210 pounds going down to 180 right? They then so they then they measured the fat cell the size of their, they measured the fat cell, the size of their fat cells and the fat cell number.

Starting point is 00:53:48 The fat cell number was pretty much the same at the beginning as it was at the end. I think they started out with 37 million, they ended with 39 million. Now, there is a lot of, I don't want people to think that's a meaningful difference. It wasn't statistically significant. You mean the other way around, right?

Starting point is 00:54:02 39 to 37. No, no, they started with 37, ended with 39. It's still not, but it's not statistically different. No, because they have to average a minute. It's not a perfect measurement. Okay. Right. Um, so could they have gained a little, who knows? But the size had shrunk quite a bit, right? Like expected. Then they just ad libats and fed them. They gave them however much food they wanted. Within, within early relapse, their fat cell size had actually shrunk a little bit more. So they'd only regained 20 grams back.

Starting point is 00:54:33 They'd only regained a fifth of what they lost. Their fat cell number increased by 50%. They had 55 million fat cells. Wow. Now, you know what, if you look at it from an evolutionary standpoint makes perfect sense. Of course it does. If you're constantly psychically through these high periods of and you finally get you your hunt. Because your body is getting better

Starting point is 00:54:55 at surviving longer without without food. It's just adapting. So think about so not only, if you were, does your body want to become more efficient if you were in a famine or a low calorie and not burn so much, it also would want to be able to perfectly capture the energy when you finally came across it, right? So, you come across a, I don't know, a kill, right, as a hunter-gatherer. That meat is not going to keep for very long. So, you're going to, you and your tribe are going to eat it, you're going to eat all of it, right? Like, and you need to be able to store that energy, you don't want to dissipate it this heat, you don't want to have it, the thermogenesis, you want to, you want to store as much of it as you can. So why would you make new fat cells? Well, you can, I think this is me going out of limb. I think there's probably a limit to how much energy flux can go across each individual cell

Starting point is 00:55:45 per unit time, right? And so the pre-adapts sites form, they differentiate as a way to, in a short term, be able to accommodate that energy. Yeah, to capture more of it. Now the problem is, with people who are trying to get lean, when they do this, where they're basically, they die for something and they binge eat at the end of it, which is a lot of people by the way. Perfect storm. You're creating a really bad situation, right?

Starting point is 00:56:11 Because now you've got these extra, and we don't know if you can get rid of them. So people ask me all that all the time, we don't know. Well, I was just going to say because whenever we observe an adaptive phenomenon on the body, often times, I can't think of a time when this doesn't happen. The adaptive response can go in the opposite as well. Have they observed people being able to kill off fat cells or reduce that? So interestingly, no.

Starting point is 00:56:37 Even with things like lipo, what tends to happen is if you have lipo and you're taking fat cells out, it just stimulates your bone marrow to produce more of it. So I think I believe they come from bone marrow. I believe that's where they start. So I'll finish the thoughts on the study because you guys will find this fascinating. It still fits with body fat set point. It's cell size is controlling kind of long-term leptin secretion and body weight.

Starting point is 00:57:01 So they continue to let the rats overfeed. They hit their prediate weight of 700 grams, but interestingly, every individual fat cell was still smaller, right? Because now there's more overall fat cells, right? So each individual cell, as they get back to their previous body fat percentage, is going to be smaller. And since leptin secretion is controlled for

Starting point is 00:57:23 by the size of the individual fat cell, their bodies, the hypothesis is still perceived that they were in a deficit, because the size of the fat cell was still reduced. So even though the same light was before. Exactly. They did not stop regaining weight until 740 grams, which was when their individual fat cells got to 102 microns, exactly what

Starting point is 00:57:49 they were before they started. So it's controlling for size of fat cells, not number of fat cells. Correct. So you're fucked. You basically screw your, you know what's funny? We've observed this phenomenon forever in fitness where people, diet binge, diet binge, diet binge, each cycle gets harder every single time. It gets harder every single time.

Starting point is 00:58:10 More difficult each time. And then of course the people blame it on age and stuff like that. And it's like, no, it's not that. It's, I think these adipose tissue adaptations are just as important if not more important than the actual effects on metabolic rate because it's affecting your long term potential

Starting point is 00:58:23 for fat storage. Have you seen the studies on how cold affects fat and it turns it into, it activates the immune system to get it to become more thermogenic and become, turn it into brown fat? Yeah, there's some fascinating studies on that as well. But I think you're 100% right? I think the adaptation.

Starting point is 00:58:40 Of course I am. Yeah. Just kidding. Kidding everybody out there. Yeah, okay. You were real likable for a second, course I am. Yeah. Just kidding. Kidding everybody out there. Yeah. Okay. You were a real likable for a second. I want to get back to Holly though because I know there's got to be a lot of women that are listening right now that are probably eating a thousand to 1500 calories and wish they could be eating 2000 calories. Could you kind of step us through like what does that look like week over week and do certain types of foods

Starting point is 00:59:03 that you choose to add in? Yeah, so so there are a few things in terms of when you're I think what people could really gain a lot from is ending their diets better. Okay, so hopefully we're dieting with an endpoint, right? Like in terms of like we don't want to be calorically restricted forever that would suck ass, right? Because, okay, longevity, whatever, but also, hey, quality of life, right? Of course. So, first thing is, have a plan when you're done. Don't be the plan, be like, okay, I'm ending my diet,

Starting point is 00:59:36 then I'm going on a cruise on an all-you-can-eat vacation, right? Like, yeah, that's gonna be the recipe for exactly what we're talking about, all right? So I tell people in that situation, hey, get ready early, then reverse diet into your vacation, right? So hopefully you maintain that leanness. And now your metabolic rate is faster. So hey, you have that three.

Starting point is 00:59:59 Holly, one of the things she comments on most now is she's like, oh my God, I can kind of fuck up in the morning and have a little more calories than I would normally, and it doesn't mean I'm fasting for the rest of the day. I can still have dinner. What she loves more than anything is just the flexibility in her lifestyle. Even if you flexible diet, 1,400 calories is not something that's flexible. You have half piece cheesecake done.

Starting point is 01:00:22 You know what I mean? That's one of the things she's commented on. So one, have a plan to a higher protein diet, possibly because the lean body mass regenerative effects, as well as the satiety effects. Now when you say high explain high to use, you know, two to two people here high in the body building world.

Starting point is 01:00:40 Yeah, they go. Two and a half grams three grams per pound. Yeah. So if you want to go by, you know, a scientist speaking grams per kilo of lean body mass, but if you want the general bro rule, 0.8 to 1.2 grams of protein per pound of body weight is going to be, is going to get you to get you to do it. One to one's an easy one to remember. You know, they'll all over.

Starting point is 01:00:59 And relatively lean, and relatively lean individuals. You don't want to. Yeah, yeah. That's why we usually use lean body mass. We say two to three grams per kilo of lean body mass. The lean body mass. Is probably a better metric. And that's what we use.

Starting point is 01:01:11 We have our own like, I don't want to call it an algorithm, but like a sheet of calculations we work up for clients and help us come to these measurements. Holly's way more detailed with that than I am. But so high protein diet. Holly's way more detailed with that than I am, but so high protein diet um, and then slow controlled editions of calories so that your body your body It's you're giving yourself some recovery. You're gonna feel better And I mean you can even people think oh my god

Starting point is 01:01:39 We're at five grams of carbs week. No, no like you finish a diet You can probably increase your intake by 50%. And you're not going to hit that threshold for causing formation of new fat cells. I'm just guessing. But like at the end of her diet, she wanted to be very conservative because she likes being lean.

Starting point is 01:01:57 She actually, she tells me she of horror is getting her period. She hates it. She's like, I don't know how women deal with this. I don't want it. So she wants to stay lean enough to avoid that. And also just she likes being lean. She's been an athlete her whole life. She just likes being lean.

Starting point is 01:02:12 Who doesn't? So we were very conservative. So we started out. I think she ended her diet like 130 grams of carbs a day and like 40 grams of fat, something like that. And I think she started it like 45 grams of fat and 150 grams of carbs. She was very, very conservative.

Starting point is 01:02:30 And just slow controlled additions. And what's funny is people will go, well, adding 10 grams of carbs in a week, like that's a sneeze, like even food labels aren't that accurate. You have to think about it as, from week to week, there may not be much difference. But if you add 10 grams of carbs

Starting point is 01:02:46 and two grams of fat every week for 10 weeks, that's a significant difference. That's what I was just gonna ask. So you're going really slow. You're adding 10 grams here, you know, five grams. Well, it's all relative. It's relative to her size. We're talking about so many eating 14 hundred calories.

Starting point is 01:02:59 If we're trying to reverse somebody's- Is there a percent that you, you, and it's gotta depend on the person. So it's usually like, I'm like, I use the increased carbs and fats. I use the whole protein study as long as it's already sufficient. Most people are already eating enough protein

Starting point is 01:03:11 who are listening to this podcast, right? We're not having to convince anybody. We're not trying to convince grandma that a high protein diet is good. Most people listening here know this. But carbs and fats, increasing to like two to eight percent per week, you know, that's kind of like the area we live in. But usually like at the end of the day,

Starting point is 01:03:31 I like somebody to do kind of an initial calorie boost, just to help get them to something that's a quality is a freak. You know, most people would not be able to end a diet and then adhere to basically diet numbers for the next six weeks while they're coming out of that deficit, right? So I tell people, you have to have honest conversation about what your goals are and what you're willing to accommodate for. If you are willing to accept some fat gain, then you can be a little bit more aggressive

Starting point is 01:03:58 with your calorie increases. What we're basically looking for is not binge eating post diet. I used to pick for females, I'd have, you know, 30 calories or so, and that's, I was just go by calories, and then I'd make, you know, low-glow, Lycemic carbohydrates is what I'd introduce. Do you have specific foods that you choose, and do you have, is there certain things for men

Starting point is 01:04:19 or women that you do differently? Because you guys are still coaching a lot of clients, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We probably have about 100 clients between the two of us. Oh, shit, okay. Do you deal with this a lot? I mean, do you guys have are still coaching a lot of clients, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We probably have about a hundred clients between the two of us. Oh shit. Okay. Um Is you do deal with this a lot? I mean you guys having to reverse a lot of people. Oh yeah, especially with her because you know women automatically just gravitate to her because they women feel comfortable being coached by a woman. I have a lot of female clients too But you know seeing her her reverse diet series on YouTube has actually gotten her so many clients just from It's so funny. You can show data. you can show hypothesis, we can talk about it.

Starting point is 01:04:50 But when they see it, of course, when they see a girl doing it, they go, like me talking about as a dude, they go, okay, well, he doesn't understand even though I do. I know the physiology. But them seeing a woman do it, they go, okay, I want her to coach me, right? So yeah, we have a lot of people who are verifying. I think because it's something we're passionate about we talk about a lot We just tend to attract those kind of clients which actually probably one of the toughest demographics for clients to be honest For sure, well because they're coming you with a lot of issue are broken, dude Well, yeah, go back to psychological piece.

Starting point is 01:05:25 Why I think psychological pieces. Is this not like some, I had one girl. She did everything I asked of her. Like, and she has gained 25 pounds in a conservative reverse diet. Hermatabolism is just so fucking slow. You know, from, I mean, she basically told me that her last coach had her, that she was between 700 to 1000 calories a day for like years. Oh boy. You know from I mean she basically told me that her last coach had her that she was between 700 to a thousand calories a day for like years Oh, you know, you know, we got to talk about this

Starting point is 01:05:50 She's just now gotten over 2000 Cal I was just gonna say this is an important thing to understand because I've worked with clients too and you tell them sometimes You're gonna have if you want to get out of this hole Sometimes you have to gain weight it might get worse before it gets better. You guys actually, but what do you say to them? 25 pound weight gain to somebody who's down with the tablet. Yeah, what I tell them is, staying in the same cycle is going to keep producing

Starting point is 01:06:16 what you've gotten. Mm-hmm. Okay. So if you want something different, you have to make a different decision. And yeah, the idea of maybe you having to gain weight, I mean, a lot of women come to me and they're like, I'm not willing to comment any weight gain. I said, well, then maybe you're, you're not ready. You know, like sometimes to, to, to, to undo years of telling your body, there is

Starting point is 01:06:38 famine and doing what reached the researcher McLean calls, he called this activating your body's self-defense systems, which are numerous, redundant, and powerful. Okay, so telling your body this, it may take years to fix. Now, most clients don't give you that kind of time because while I'm over here saying, yeah, you may have to gain some weight, it may take a few years to fix, there's fucking some other asshole over here saying, yeah, you may have to gain some weight. It may take a few years to fix.

Starting point is 01:07:06 There's fucking some other asshole over there saying, just do keto, bro. Keto will fix all the problems. Or this thing is gonna fix all the problems. Plus you're dealing with somebody who's probably got insecurities with their bodies. And you gotta tell them you're gonna gain weight for two years.

Starting point is 01:07:18 Possibly. Yeah, maybe, you know, that's a tough one. I have a few other theories in regards to this. We had someone on the podcast recently who said that perhaps the central nervous system is remembering some of these. I absolutely think there's diet memory. 100%. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:07:34 And when you look at it that way, when you look at the whole organism and the central nervous system being involved in remembering diets as past pass famines and all that stuff. For me, in my experience, I've had a lot of success when I work with people like this where they have damaged metabolism. Not only do I slowly reverse them out of it, not only do I make the focus strength training type resistance training straight sets, long rest, that type of stuff because that seems to help. I also reduce cardio because I see how cardio tends to keep the metabolism efficient.

Starting point is 01:08:04 The other thing I try to do is I try to incorporate like a stress management plan and incorporate things like yin yoga meditation because all those stresses on the body, especially in that hypersensitive state, in my opinion, seem to trigger those self-defense mechanisms. Well, not to mention, most of those people that fall in a trap or the type a type of personalities They're like the good get after it right they get after it work they get after their family life their relationships And they crush it in the gym. It's like well stress is a is a memory trigger for a lot of tissues in the body Like even like me. I'll get lower back pain when I get stressed out. Oh for sure

Starting point is 01:08:40 Even though there might not be anything structurally wrong. I will get it You know even though I'm six months and something. You sound very esoteric right now. I was gonna say that's a little woo-woo right there. You know, it's a white hair. Yeah. So, you know. Oh, cool.

Starting point is 01:08:52 Move that cheek around. Shack on some. You get it. Yeah. Yeah, you know what happens? You fall in love. You're mind opens and I'm saying. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:09:01 Yeah, no. You know, no, it's, I think I, like I said, I've always been a pretty open mind person. Yeah. I'm saying you're right. No, it's, I think, like I said, I've always been a pretty open mind person. And there's, like going back to, like just in terms of religion, you'll never hear me say, God doesn't exist. Or a higher part of the, because I can't prove that it doesn't, right?

Starting point is 01:09:17 Like if you're a scientist, you should never say something like that. Because yeah, you can't prove that it does exist. You can only kind of have fields, but I can't prove that it doesn't either. Right. Right. And that's like, you know, we're finding out more and more that the brain has an impact on everything. I tell people when like when I've had them reversing for a while, what happens? A lot of things tend to when they start cutting again, they get like hyper stressed and you know, they get more. And that's the mind because they're afraid

Starting point is 01:09:43 they're not going to lose weight and it it's not gonna work and this and that and I'm like you have to believe that this is going to work You need to believe that this is gonna work tell yourself. It's going to work talk yourself through why it's going to work Just like I visualize a big every big lift I've ever hit I had lifted that way to thousand times in my mind before I ever touched it I had visualized that shit so many times, you have to visualize yourself losing weight. As dumb as that sounds, you have to visualize this work and the other thing you have to do is stop fucking around with your cuts. Cutting should be like war.

Starting point is 01:10:17 Get in the deficit, get in, dominate and get the fuck out. These people who do really bad are people who kind of fuck around and die in diets for a long time. They're like, oh, they're not really serious, but they're restricting, but then they had like a overeating thing on the weekend and they fucked up whatever progress they made during the week.

Starting point is 01:10:34 That's what I see with keto right now, at the time. I don't think people realize how much this is, gonna be a major backlash with keto, I think in the next couple of years, is I've run, I've run in a ton of clients that are Keto four days of the week. And then they're not actually Keto. Right.

Starting point is 01:10:48 Right. Exactly. Then you then you then you eat and have fun on the weekends. It's like, do that person. I mean, you'd be far better off following a more balanced diet or a car friendly diet. If you're going to go binge on the weekends, then if you're then running a Keto four or five days and then going off the rails on a Friday or Saturday.

Starting point is 01:11:04 And that's why I tell people we're going to keto low carb. Hey, that's fine. But you better be ready to make that a lifestyle. Right, right. Right. Because if you're constantly taking yourself in and out of ketosis, that's going to be tough. Like ketogenic, the adapting phase, like the keto flu, it sucks, right? And so if you're always pulling yourself out of that and then having to go back in, you're

Starting point is 01:11:24 going to feel like shit a lot. I think it's important you come out of it every once in a while so if you're always pulling yourself out of that and then having to go back in, you're gonna feel like shit a lot. I think it's important you come out of it every once in a while if you're keto unless it's a medicinal medical, you know, ketogenic diet, but this, if you do it like that, like two days on, three days on, one day off, whatever. You're even that, even that, that's all it is.

Starting point is 01:11:39 Right, even that if you're just coming out on a one day out of the week, if you're coming out without a structure to it, I don't think it's safe at all. Right, people that's how they're there most people are treating it Just like every other diet, you know I'm on this diet for four or five days. I get a cheat day on Saturday or Sunday and then they go and they eat Where the fuck they want? They don't tell people is if you're diet so great. Why do you feel like you need to cheat on right? Yeah, well Keto's the greatest thing ever. Oh god. I can't wait to get my fries and burger all the weekends.

Starting point is 01:12:06 It's not being another food. Yeah. So I do, I want to stay on the, because I still want to get like a more tangible things from you with the holiday things. I know there's people out, and I know it's a junior question. I keep going back to, but are there specific foods that you like to tend to recommend? Like, like, yeah, I mean, where do you normally go for adding? You know, it's, everybody's different.

Starting point is 01:12:27 Right. You've got to really, you know, like a good example is Holly. She doesn't have an off switch. We literally have a lock box in our house because I like my Reese's PCs and I like my Reese's Cubs and I like my Skittles, you know, here and there. She can't, she can't have it. Maybe it'll get different in the future

Starting point is 01:12:43 after she's had, you know, more time in a surplus. I'm the same way too though. I can't, if it's not in my house, I won't have it. Maybe it'll get different in the future after she's had more time in a surplus. I'm the same way too though. If it's not in my house, I won't touch it. I'm good. It's so funny. If it's in the house, I'm going to come get it. She's been one of the things that I think the reason we work well is because I like the fact that she's very strong and independent. A lot of relationships in the past, the person didn't want her to be independent, you know? So she's used to been living on her own,

Starting point is 01:13:07 doing her own thing, setting up her life exactly how she was to set it up. In fact, it was funny the other day, she said something like, I just wanna do what I wanna do, what I wanna do it. And I'm like, bad, that's not a reasonable expectation

Starting point is 01:13:19 for most people, you know? But so she just didn't have that shit in her house. She wouldn't have anything in her house. She would only have, and literally like, not even like her cupboards when I, when I was a visitor one time, uh, were bare, you know, like she only had as much food in her house as she would eat for the week. Right. That was it. And that was how she balanced her calories for the week.

Starting point is 01:13:42 But I mean, part of that's, you know, you can call that, oh, well, that's like a disorder or this and that. I can call it being self-aware. I just, yeah, I'd say it's more self-aware. For me, it's self-awareness. I know that I have an issue with sugar because I fucking over-consumed it as a kid. We could have it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Starting point is 01:13:57 I always had candy all the way into my 20s. I mean, I never, I never not had candy in my car, candy in my house. I used to finish almost every night with Ben and Jerry's ice cream, and I maintained a very lean physique because I was playing sports and I was lifting all time.

Starting point is 01:14:10 So I had a really bad relationship with sugar then as I got older, life slowed down. Like I can't do that anymore. So for me, it's like, it's not a eating source is I know that, hey, if I have it in the house, it's not a temptation. As I'm not, I don't want it so bad that I'll get in the fucking car and go drive to go get Ben and Jerry's at 10 o'clock a night.

Starting point is 01:14:27 But if it's down on my freezer and I smoke a little weed and I watch my favorite show, I'm for sure walked downstairs and go do. And that's for her. It's just pure accessibility. Like actually, I wouldn't even eat a lock box. If we just like put it outside in the fridge outside, she won't touch it.

Starting point is 01:14:41 It's just not close to her. It's more of a stress response, you know. But so she kind of just added in foods that she had been consuming a lot of anyway because when you go out from 14 hundred to 1500 calories, it's not like you're adding one ounce of something, you're adding what ounce of this or what ounce of that. She was kind of still including like really feeling high satiety, high volume, low calorie foods. Now that she's at 2000, she's finding that okay now she can incorporate like a wine every night or she can you know have

Starting point is 01:15:13 some rice instead of you know cauliflower rice like she can she can do some of those because she really likes a lot of food volume you know. I think that that's also really interesting stuff. We gave a co-siminars with mental hensomins and his girlfriend, his girlfriend, Sona. And Sona talked a lot about the science of satiety. And actually, like even if you have like a plate that is a similar color as your food, you'll eat more. So, if you have a place color as your food. You'll you'll eat more So yeah, so if you have a complete interesting that contrast the color of your food you won't eat as much

Starting point is 01:15:50 I think it's like 20 30% and then if you if you serve on a smaller plate So that's another thing is that people don't they underestimate this is the sociological aspects of food I'll tell people like when was the last time you went to a vent that did not have food Mm-hmm And if you went to an event that didn't have food, you would think it was weird, right? Like, so, and then also dinner plates. Dinner plates in the 1800s were like this big. Nobody could see this because I'm...

Starting point is 01:16:14 They were small. They were small. They've increased by like 50% in size. You know who knows a lot about this? Food manufacturers spend a lot of fucking money on understanding all of the science and everything from the color of the food, the texture, the amount of pressure you do apply in order to crunch the food. They actually spend a lot of money on this stuff

Starting point is 01:16:34 knowing that they dial all, it's no different than like internet marketing where they know the color and the font, not the stuff. Funnling. It's all of, they split test everything and figure out like what is going to make you eat more, which is why I'm always like processed food, man. Be careful, because that's just designed to make you eat more.

Starting point is 01:16:52 And it works really well. And I think one of the things is like when I talk about like my goal for most people is get them to a point where they're kind of intuitive eating, right? If they're not getting ready for a bodybuilding show, we're not targeted. You just want my heart right now. But like when I say intuitive, I don't mean kind of going by hunger signals, because our hunger signals in this day and age are kind of... Right, I think we're all on the same page and agree that intuitive eating is a destination

Starting point is 01:17:13 you want, you should be trying to get to most people who are now ready for that. And to be honest, if you've ever had an eating disorder, intuitive eating is probably not a reasonable expectation for you. Your hunger signals are pretty much fucked. Just because if your association will food with different things. Totally. What I mean by intuitive eating is just like what I do now.

Starting point is 01:17:31 So I don't have like an app that I log my food in and I don't weigh my food and I go out to eat and stuff. But I'm just kind of keeping a running track in my head of, okay, I think that was about 50 grams of protein and 75 grams of carbs and 15 grams of fat, that sort of thing. And I just, you know, by the end, I'm probably a few hundred calories off per day, but here's the other thing. I don't think maintenance calories is a set point.

Starting point is 01:17:53 I think it's a range. Of course. I think you have a high end of maintenance that you maintain your body weight on, and you have a low end that you maintain your body weight on. And that's why I also tell people people will say, well, if I reverse dieted, I absolutely should I die back down that way. Absolutely not because here's the example I give. I was

Starting point is 01:18:11 listening to a researcher and he was saying, well, obesity, if we look at it from age 20 to age 70, is basically overeating by about 20 calories per day. So he is just saying, if we just cut 20 calories out of our diet, we could stop obesity. I promise you if you cut 20 calories out of your diet a day, absolutely nothing will happen. Your body will adapt. Your body will just adapt to it. Yep, it'll adapt. It has to be a big enough of a drop because for the same reason reverse dieting can work

Starting point is 01:18:37 in terms of not having as much weight gain as you would predict based on the amount of calories you add in. If you diet too slow, you'll have the same thing in reverse, right? Where you're actually not dropping weight. Now, there is another end of that. There is the other side of that is the psychological piece in which going slow may be easier and more feasible for people. There's been going too fast. So there's thresholds. As I say, there's an extreme on both sides, right? Because if you were to diet, I mean, we're saying it's better to go harder But if you were to go so hard that you're restricted too big of a change in your life

Starting point is 01:19:08 It's too big of a restriction because eventually you may not get it here to it because I see this a lot What you probably see this with a lot of the competitors and people you guys coaches They go to the diet and they boom right away. They cut 1500 2000 calories out of their Yeah, too much way too much right too fast Yeah, and what I'll say is like okay, so we have this maintenance range. And I think generally it's about 200 to 300 calories, right? So if you're in the middle, you could probably drop 100 or 150 calories

Starting point is 01:19:34 and really not lose much weight meaningfully. You could probably add 100 to 150 calories and not lose much weight or not gain much weight meaningfully if you're sitting in the middle, right? So what I will usually do is think about, okay, what is the minimum amount to get out of that space to actually trigger a response? Minimum effective dose. Right.

Starting point is 01:19:57 Minimum effective dose, right? So we talk about this with volume. Like I had a podcast with Eric Helms, Mike Israel and Greg Knuckles where we're kind of arguing max recoverable volume versus minimum effective dose. And I said, for advanced people, that's actually going to be the about the same thing. But it's about the same thing. We're actually arguing the same thing, but for diet, I agree with Adam, you don't want

Starting point is 01:20:18 to just, like if you start out and you're eating 30,000 calories, they just cut it down to 2000. I mean, what happens when you adapt? Right. And now you've got to drop it again. Now there is interesting information with diet breaks. Like being, I'm just reviewing it. I'm actually going to be on a paper over submitting it

Starting point is 01:20:37 with some of the people who did the diet break research. I don't know how familiar you guys are with this research, but there was a recent study where they, so if you look at like refeeds or high carb days or carbs cycling If you equate calories for the week it doesn't seem to make a difference on fat loss What's really interesting is there was a study that was recently done called the Matador study And they took people and they either straight chlorically restricted them for 16 weeks or Oh, I saw this.

Starting point is 01:21:06 Or they did it for intermittently. So the... So like underlating or whatever. Right, so they would have people diet for two weeks, eat it maintenance for two weeks. Diet for two weeks, eat it maintenance. Diet for two weeks, eat it maintenance. So one group dieted for 16 weeks,

Starting point is 01:21:20 the other dieted for 16 weeks, but with two weeks of diet breaks in between. So the total time was 30 weeks, right? We did a YouTube on this. What was really fucking cool was the people on the diet breaks lost way less lean body mass. They had better fat loss efficiency. That is per week of caloric restriction.

Starting point is 01:21:38 They lost more fat and lost more weight. And the group that was straight-died for 16 weeks, they had metabolic adaptation, so they lost, they're, their metabolic rate decreased to a greater extent that would be predicted by the amount of fat and lean body mass they lost. That's their metabolism slowed down. Now I agree with this, we did a YouTube on this, you know.

Starting point is 01:22:03 We call this mini-cutting and mini-bulks, which we've been preaching this for three years. And when this study came out, it confirmed what we had experienced training clients, which is, I would never put someone on a 12-week straight deficit. I would always put them on a general deficit, but I'd always intermittently throw in surpluses. Yeah, surpluses or maintenance. And it just prevents that metabolic and then they're, and then this goes back to the psychological piece for me is that, you know, people's hunger signals are so off and when you're in the hospital, you're in the hospital, you're in the hospital, you're in the hospital, you're in the hospital, you're in the hospital, you're in the hospital, you're in the hospital, you're in the hospital, you're like I want to eat more and I'll eat more. And then this goes back to the psychological piece for me, is that people...

Starting point is 01:22:46 It's gotta be controlled. Yeah, people's hunger signals are so off. And most times when you're craving or wanting things is when you're fucking sedentary, you're watching movies, you're not doing that stuff. And then when you're on it, you're eating good and you're moving around. Like, those are the days that you should be

Starting point is 01:22:59 eating that surplus. That's a good point. And that's something else I want to bring up with you, and Lane, we talk about how it's hard to trust the hunger signals, how hard it is to control whether or not we overeat or whatever, from my standpoint, now consider my context, I'm somebody that came from the whole, eat every two or three hours, overfeed all the time,

Starting point is 01:23:20 build muscle, mentality, right. For me, fasting was by far the most effective thing I've ever done in helping me become more intuitive with my eating, because for somebody who fed themselves so often all the time, going without food for 48 to 72 hours, there's the health benefits. We all know that, and the anti-inflammatory effects and all that stuff. But psychologically speaking,

Starting point is 01:23:45 or some people will say spiritually, my disconnection from food really allowed me to understand hunger signals. Because I thought I knew what hunger was. I thought I'd always felt, but in reality, it's always cravings. What people think hunger is as cravings. And try to bite versus hunger is different.

Starting point is 01:24:01 Yeah, and cravings are connected to emotions, context. People around you. Am I at the movies now I want popcorn or now I want a beer because I'm having pizza or whatever, hunger is totally different. And so for people like myself, because I would never recommend fasting to someone who hasn't eaten to sort of like

Starting point is 01:24:17 bulimia or thoraxia or anorexia. But for people in our space, fasting, if you want to talk about getting to a space where you can eat more intuitively, one of the best tools I've ever used, because when you break those chains, it does a few different things. One is I identify like, oh, I eat when I'm bored, or when I'm angry, when I'm stressed, or whatever. The other thing too is, boy, your perception of food changes in, you know, scientifically

Starting point is 01:24:42 speaking, I'm sure there's receptors that down regulate and all this other stuff that happens. For example, you eat a lot of candy, fruit doesn't taste as sweet, it just tastes more bland. Eliminate food for three days, eat a strawberry, and you'll see how sweet it tastes. Yeah, your taste receptors are actually very adaptable. Like you take somebody, like just take, we were in Thailand a couple of weeks ago,

Starting point is 01:25:01 and don't ever tell somebody in Thailand that you want your food, food, spicy. Oh, are you sure? Did you do that? Fuck you up. Oh. Like, that idea. Like, because like if you tell them you want no spice, then it'll be like the right amount

Starting point is 01:25:12 of spice. Because they can't taste it. Like if it's something that's like if they went to America and had American food, bland, they can't taste anything. Because their receptors are adapted so much to really spicy foods. Same things happens with sugar, right? Like I actually tend to like things very sweet because I have a little bit of sweet tooth.

Starting point is 01:25:29 And like a lot of, sometimes the complaints of like when I'll make somebody a coffee or something like that, oh man, little sweet, you know, because that's my taste. Or if you have somebody who like is used to a really high salt diet, if you give them something low sodium, it can have all the flavors in the world but they can't taste it because they're so used to a really high salt diet. If you give them something low sodium, it can have all the flavors in the world, but they can't taste it because they're so used

Starting point is 01:25:47 to a really high sodium food. Oh, sodium food. That's me. So, you know, it's just very, this is why I get so pissed off at people who wanna make this stuff like, oh, it's just carbs. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:26:01 Really? Like, you tell me, so the other thing I get is like, okay, well, we've been told that protein's gonna kill you.. Carbs are going to kill you. Fats are going to kill you. So what the fuck are we going to do? You want to sit back and photosynthesize? Or what? You know, like, it's just, you know, what do you think with Sean Baker going around talking on? Carnivore diet. Yeah. You've seen him. I know you have. He's on Joe. That's a lot of immune issues. 100%. Yeah. I, so I think that in general, if you

Starting point is 01:26:24 tell somebody eat more protein, I think that that's probably good advice. I think eating only meat is probably not great advice, to be honest, because there are a lot of issues with, you know, like fibers good, dude, like fiber, fiber is good for your GI. All the research we have, mean admittedly its correlation, but You know meat I will say clearly. I don't think meat causes cancer in and of itself It's there's a very high association with colorectal cancer and process meats

Starting point is 01:26:56 I think that's more to do with the fact that people who eat more processed meats tend to have just overall more unhealthy lifestyles right and and and you know red meat and colorectal cancer. Well, people who eat more red meat tend to not exercise, they tend to not eat much fiber, and they tend to eat more charred portions of meat, which have what are called poly-earmatic hydrocarbons, which are also chrysanagenic. But if you correct for all those three things, the association with meat and cancer is pretty weak. But again, I think,

Starting point is 01:27:29 if my research and people I've worked with over the years have taught me anything, it's that, most things are okay in small doses, even things we would consider bad. Some things are a caveat to that, trans fats, there doesn't seem to be like a good sense of that. Trans fats. I think if you have small amounts of trans fats,

Starting point is 01:27:50 probably not going to kill you. Don't trans fats appear in nature also in some cases? I think in some cases. Yeah, well, it means just chemistry. So you have, you know, it's just a cis versus a trans double bond in a fatty acid. Yeah. So there's, so too much of anything tends to be about that.

Starting point is 01:28:08 It's just, it's just way more complex than people want to admit. No, I think it, and I also think, look, human body's pretty adaptable. You can get away with a lot of things for a certain time. So you can eat just potatoes for a little while and be okay. Is it an antidide? Yeah, yeah. And then you can eat just potatoes for a little while and be okay.

Starting point is 01:28:25 And then you can say, look, I just eat potatoes and I feel healthy. It's like, well, yeah, keep it up long enough and then maybe see what happened. Well, and again, like people were going on this diet and they're like, oh, I feel so much better, but you feel better because you're losing weight and your blood sugar is normalizing all of that.

Starting point is 01:28:41 But you could have gone at that still eating some carbohydrate, you know? Like it's the restriction that matters, you know. Now I think what's individual is how you produce that restriction if, if, you know, because I was on Chris Bell's doing another documentary and they interviewed me for like two hours on this. What's the name of it? I don't think they have a name yet. He said, dude, I saw it on his, his, his, his on his Instagram. Well, no, that's a different one. I think oh it is. That's a different one. Oh, okay Are you talking about that? Yeah, so they they fill me for two hours and they kind of we went through a lot of different diets and

Starting point is 01:29:14 You know what I said by the end was like You know there are some general rules calories do count but whatever whatever allows you to Because you know people want to again people want like the perfect diet that's gonna solve all their problems And the fact is if we could just get people to do like three things they would be so much healthier You know don't eat like an asshole Exercise a little more and get some sleep. Yeah, like that's 95% of it, you know? Plus the perfect diet, if you do find the perfect diet for you, that's the perfect diet for you right now. Like, your body changes, circumstances change,

Starting point is 01:29:54 and I don't know about you Lane, but the further we go, the longer I'm in fitness, the deeper I get, the more I realize. We can back to the strap on. There's lots of, I mean, you start to get more, I'll tell you what, we had dinner with a good friend of ours who, I consider just a brilliant man when it comes to just wellness, that whole sphere of wellness.

Starting point is 01:30:16 And before he ate, he looked like he prayed over his food. I don't know what he was doing, but he took a second, did something and then started eating. And later on I asked him, I said, are you praying before you eat? Because I didn't think he was religious. And he goes, no, he goes, I ask. And this is what he said, and I'm paraphrasing. I asked the food if it wants to be a part of my body,

Starting point is 01:30:33 I asked my body if it wants the food. And he does this whole esoteric thing. And as I'm listening to him, like, that sounds ridiculous, that's silly. But then I think about it, and I realize, across all cultures and religions forever, there's a practice that people tend to do before eating. And I do know, and we just talked about this earlier in this episode, how important

Starting point is 01:30:53 state of mind is to digestion, to health, to all these different things. I mean, I can think of something right now and change neurochemicals. I can change hormone fluctuations just by a thought. And it makes sense, especially if you're a stressed out individual pushing your body really hard to stop and take a second and let your body relax and get in parasympathetic state before you eat your food versus cram the food in your mouth between clients or whatever and how big of a difference that makes. Then we're on.

Starting point is 01:31:20 That's Holly, actually. And I can't, like if I try to eat as fast as she does, I can't do it. So I was the big difference. I was the same way and I think it's trained from me training myself to compete and get so many meals in to get my calories up. So it was a game changer when I was it Paul that we met with it was with the water thing. Paul, and I never drink water. I've never like actually tried to eat my food with no fluid whatsoever.

Starting point is 01:31:45 And you do that one time, and it's like, for somebody who shovels food, you realize, like, whoa, I'm not even really fully digesting my food, because I'm not even fully chewing it before I swallow it. I'm taking a bite, I'm washing it down, I'm taking another, I'm taking pills, worth of food, I'm not really chewing it. But these things make a big difference,

Starting point is 01:32:03 and then we spoke to another gut health expert and they were like, oh no, I recommend to all my clients with really bad gut issues after we've identified whether or not there's issues with imbalances of gut microbiome and damage and a lot of stuff. One of the things, practice is that we tell them is learn to meditate right before you eat five minutes of meditation, then it makes a big difference

Starting point is 01:32:24 and speaking from someone who has whose had got issues in the past It does make a big difference. So my question to you is do you find yourself like the deeper you get in The realm of health and fitness the more you start to look the more you start to see all these other what you may have considered Weird and nezotereic and stupid five years ago now you're starting to say things that maybe you would laugh at five years ago. Sure. Well, wasn't religion our first science? I mean, wasn't it? Well, I think, you know, it's everything matters.

Starting point is 01:32:58 It just depends on how much it matters. So I try to keep in mind like, what is the hierarchy of importance? One of the big rocks. Like, because if you want to get right down to like, we're talking about plate size and consumption and all that kind of like If you if you want to like do every single thing right it can be like a full-time job You know what I mean? So people don't have that time. So I'm just trying to give them a few things and a few concepts that they can they can take home because the average person you know

Starting point is 01:33:22 It's just so hard again like your time is limited, right? So people ask, how do I not get fleeced by people? And as bad as it sounds, you kind of have to pick people you trust, you know, that's Greg Knuckles said something that was really pertinent. And I loved it because I never thought about this way, but it's so true and I think you guys will have a, oh, he said, people are really good at determining whether someone else has more knowledge on a subject than they do, right? So you talk to somebody for a few minutes,

Starting point is 01:33:56 typically you can tell if they have more knowledge about something than you do. What they're really bad at is determining of two people who have more knowledge than them, who is the more knowledgeable of the two They're really bad at that right like I love fishing, right and I fall a few different shows But if you know, let's say two anglers or that are experts are having debate about which not is better for a topwater lure well not is better for a top water lure. Well, fuck if I know, I'm not actually gonna go in and get a testing apparatus and see which one has a better

Starting point is 01:34:29 breaking strength. Oh, well, he says this one actually allows more lure movement and all that kind of stuff. I'm just gonna end up probably siding with a person who I like better. You're gonna side with the better salesman. So, and that's one of the problems out there is scientists typically aren't good communicators.

Starting point is 01:34:43 Terrible. Right? There's a reason, you know, we all have like some kind of little bit of like social problems, you know what I mean? Cause we like it stuck in a lab for 12 hours and not talking to anybody, you know. And I like talking, so I'm a little bit of an apparition in terms of a scientist. But we tend to be poor communicators,

Starting point is 01:34:59 but the other thing we do is, you know, scientists with integrity usually put things in context, right? So when you talk to me, I'm sitting here saying, well, yeah, this thing matters, but you have to think about it in terms of this thing, and, you know, it's not magic, and we're just somebody out there saying very confidently, very authoritatively,

Starting point is 01:35:19 nope, it's insulin, it's carbs. This is why you're fat, this is why you can't lose weight. And people are, who are you gonna go with? Are you gonna go with the person who's really, really confident a lot? So, you know, when people say, you know, I'm big on education, right? But I've met some people who don't have degrees

Starting point is 01:35:39 in nutrition who are very, very intelligent, right? But when I say things like, that I value education so much, it's not that people, there are people who are scuzz bags who have PhDs, who would sell, who would, so would fucking promote anything as long as they could get some cash for it.

Starting point is 01:35:57 What I say is, there's, what the difference is, is our levels of confidence, right? If somebody's had to do a higher degree, typically that was really difficult, and it required them to do a lot of thinking and fail a lot to get to that point. So I automatically tend to give them

Starting point is 01:36:18 a little bit more credibility. So it just increases my confidence that person. It doesn't mean they're foolproof. It just increases my level of confidence, right? And the more you learn There's a phrase I forgot what the phrase was but the more you learn at a certain point you realize Like oh shit. I know way less than I thought I did. Oh 100% and I can't done it. Done in Kruger effect. There you go There you go. Yeah, that's a real that's a real thing hell. Yeah, you know Yeah, I think but I will say this in terms of our industry. I'll say this to Lane you've been in it a while. I've been in it for a long time. So if these guys

Starting point is 01:36:50 There's a lot of bullshit out there for sure the fitness industry is one of the worst But generally speaking the average consumer Seems to be more informed than they were 15 years ago. I agree with that. I think that The difference between now and 15 years ago is there's actually some good information to counter out the shit that's out there. Right? 15 years ago, evidence-based stuff didn't even fucking exist.

Starting point is 01:37:13 No. Right? The idea of, you know, flexible dieting or anything like that, that would just be, nope, just eat chicken and rice, you know? Like, most of us have been lifting for over 15 years. Our education came from muscle and fitness. Yeah, I had a pro bodybuilder contact me.

Starting point is 01:37:31 His diet was absolutely fucking atrocious. Like he eats only chicken every day, except for oatmeal, which we'll have in the morning and no vegetables. And then when he gets his last final weeks, it's all up, yeah. Yeah, I'm like, oh, you're only deficient in about 50 million different things.

Starting point is 01:37:47 Plus, you're having Holly actually, when she was in Australia, some of the guys she knew that were pro-bottomotors there. She did a nutritional analysis of their diets and found that they were like, frank, deficient in some nutrients and like we're consuming toxic levels of selenium Like so and unfortunately we looked at these as people what what what what were they what were they in taking I forget what it was

Starting point is 01:38:13 But they were Yeah, these people are like our beacons of nutrition. No, they should they shouldn't be I think they they they look the way they do in spite of In spite of their diet and training. Yes. Well, it goes back to what you were saying the very beginning is the the calories thing is that Calories is one of the bigger rock still and so if you're somebody who can restrict a lot of calories and expend a lot for a long period of time Like it's inevitable. You're gonna lean out. You know saying like you will you will start to get shredded if you do that long enough Yeah, if you're only eating chicken, it's pretty easy to go to your store. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's, but somebody will look at them and say, wow, they look great.

Starting point is 01:38:48 I'm, unfortunately, like, I mean, it's why I get business. Like if I was, if I was pudgy, I wouldn't get business. Dude, I'll tell you, I always enjoy talking with you on the podcast. And, you know, I, I know you can, you have strong opinions, but you back them up with science, and you can be, some people think you're abrasive. I see you as a very open-minded person

Starting point is 01:39:10 who's open to discussion, and I appreciate that. Whether I agree with you or not, and I do often agree with you, I really do. And I'd say we agree on 90% of shit. But I do appreciate your openness to discuss, and I wish there were more people like that in fitness. I will say this though, and I'll go on record saying this. I think, no, because I know last time I talked to you.

Starting point is 01:39:31 I'm trying to get fast again. Yes. That's how it's handled. I knew it was going to be. It will blow your mind because the psychological component of it. I did fast-roared food poisoning. I did it.

Starting point is 01:39:40 That is a count. That's a count. Nothing's got to be falling too. You're like a 48 hour fast. You know what, talking about the way you talk about Holly and her relationship to food, it will blow your mind because you'll break the chains long enough to make those examinations

Starting point is 01:39:53 and talk about intuitive eating. It takes it to a whole new level. Absolutely a whole new level. It also just adds another tool to your already crazy tool belt that you can use with clients too. I use it all the time as a tool for clients to teach them, especially with our body builder type clients that are so attached to the six meals.

Starting point is 01:40:09 That's the one that really benefit. That's the one that really benefit. That's the one that really benefit. That's the one that really benefit. That's the one that really benefit. Nothing will fuck up a competitor in the middle of their competition and go, hey, guess what?

Starting point is 01:40:17 Tomorrow we're fasting. I'm gonna lose all my muscles. Right, freak out on them. Yeah, I don't think that you're gonna lose all your muscle from fasting or anything like that. I think that it's not, you know, it's not gonna be anabolic situation, but I don't think you're gonna lose a bunch of muscle from it or anything like that. I think that it's not, you know, it's not going to be an anabolic situation, but I don't think you're going to lose a bunch of muscle from it, you know, especially not one day.

Starting point is 01:40:30 Yeah. You might, you might if you go three days, but it comes right back. It's not a big deal. Yeah, that's the other thing. But, yeah, I mean, I try to be like I said, open mind it. You know, what really gets me is, you know, like I got into debate on Twitter with an ophthalmologist who was speaking really authoritatively about nutrition. And then had the audacity to call my occupation a

Starting point is 01:40:54 joke. He's like, Oh, well, nutrition is just memorization. It's like you fucking arrogant jackass. Like really? What was the debate over? The insulin's the cause of every problem from war to famine to, you know, whatever. I need debates a day. Are you in these? I can't keep up anymore. I used to keep up with you. You did you did start some shit or said some shit about our friend Ben Greenfield. Oh, that's him getting Joe Rogan. I know you got Joe Rogan asked for like a year and a half now, two years. Ben is probably a very nice guy.

Starting point is 01:41:28 Oh, you guys, you would love him. I, he may be a little too pseudo science for him. Oh, of course, I dislike his marketing approach, but that's, you know, that's just the very first time he interviewed us. I called him out on it. Very first time. Remember that? We were talking, did you just do like fucking six commercials

Starting point is 01:41:46 on our fucking show, right? Amazon, yeah. But you know what, just to be honest. See, that's what I probably can learn from marketing stuff because I'm terrible at marketing myself. And there is, by the end I'm like, oh, oh, by the way, I have a contest prep book and I coach people, you know,

Starting point is 01:41:59 because I just like helping people. I like it. I like it. I'm like, you scutting insulting somebody that you're like, oh, by the way, if you want to pick up my contest, but thanks Ben, appreciate that second. I'll tell you what though, but if you meet Ben

Starting point is 01:42:11 and you get to know him, because at first we know other human on this Earth. He's so like that for real. That's how he is. There's no other human on this Earth that I would want more than Ben Greenfield's drench in the bounds. Yeah, doing that weird shit.

Starting point is 01:42:24 Like, if there's anybody, if there's another guy who I went to and I said, like, I wanna go, like there's some shit that came out that sounds all pseudo-sciencey and I wanna know about it. Like that's the guy I wanna know who wouldn't apply it to himself because his level of intelligence, the way he lives his life is so consistent

Starting point is 01:42:41 that when he adds these variables, he's a really cool person to talk to as far as like, what he sees or notices. I've never met somebody so consistent with their life as this goes. To a fall. I mean, it's pretty. Oh, it's this thing, man.

Starting point is 01:42:53 It's this thing. Well, I mean, my thing is like, and I don't wanna come at Rogan too much because I actually really like Joe Rogan. Like, I think- You're just trying to get us a fan. Be careful, he's a big mind pump fan he listens a lot so no I mean like you know I kind of a bunch of people asked for me to be on the

Starting point is 01:43:14 show I you know what it's his damn show if he ever wants me I'd be totally up for that you know what I mean why do you think he doesn't want you to show I don't want me falls beyond Twitter so I don't know oh it does fall you on Twitter. Yeah, maybe I come across this to abrasive and he thinks I'm gonna come in there and you don't scream and drop F-bombs. I mean, that's not how I am. I feel like you would want you on the show to say that would work well. Maybe it's your approach. You know, maybe. I mean, but it's, you know, it's one because, you know, it's not that he won't have a descending opinion because he had Andy Galpin on there, you know. So I don't know, but I mean at

Starting point is 01:43:44 the end of the day, people get mad about it, but I'm not real mad about it. It's his podcasting and what the hell he wants with it. Have you and Andy leeks up here? I know Andy, like we talk every once in a while. I like Andy. Yeah, I like him too. He's very good, very smart guy.

Starting point is 01:43:55 But, you know, like, that kind of frustrated me a little bit because it's just like, I just noticed for nutrition more than anything, he kind of has people on to confirm his bias. You know what I mean? I'm really glad he had Andy on. I'm really glad he had Dom Diggistino on, because those guys are gonna shoot it straight. You know?

Starting point is 01:44:13 But some of the other people, I'm just like, fuck, man, because I know he's a smart dude, but you can't be an expert about everything, right? So if you kind of fall into that track of, oh, this worked really well for me and I like it. But then, you know So if you kind of fall into that track of, oh, this worked really well for me and I like it. But then, you know, when you say things like sugar's poison, you know, um, so yeah, I mean, I just, I guess I kind of was frustrated. It's like, all right, we're going to have pseudo science guests on, but we can't have a real scientist

Starting point is 01:44:42 on, you know, like, I I mean but that's probably but my game approach I don't know yeah I think when you insult the the guy on the the guys on the show you're almost insulting the show no but here's the thing is I actually think Joe Rogan is very very um very smart guy and I really enjoy listening to him like that's how I learned anything about MMA was I loved him man I love watching you the UFC. Mostly a lot of it because I actually stopped watching really because he wasn't on it anymore.

Starting point is 01:45:10 Like because like he made grappling fun to watch, you know, because he explained exactly what was going on. And he's libertarian. You know, we have a lot of the same views. So I think he's actually a very intelligent, pretty open-minded guy. I think once he meets you, he'd like you. What frustrates me is I feel like he's kind of gotten taken for a ride by a few people who he trusts. You know what I mean? So maybe that's okay, this is what I'll tell you. I think you're wrong, and I think that... Probably. I think Joe is that intelligent, and that's so many...

Starting point is 01:45:41 So why I think Ben Greenfield came on the show, the time that he came on the show, was because Ben Greenfield was trending so heavily all over the world at that time because of his penis injection thing that just happened. So Joe's a Joe smart knowing that like he's got a relationship with the guy already. Yeah. He's all over the place and that's absolutely where he wants to take him because that's what's going to drive views and. Oh, no. I think I think I think there's more strategy behind that. Oh, probably. Right, he caught Sean Baker on the way up. Right when Sean Baker was, he got,

Starting point is 01:46:10 did he get Jordan Peterson too? Did he get, yes. Jordan Peterson on the way up. Yeah. I mean, he's, I think it's more about that than it is like, oh, I respect it. I mean, that's how, when we bring down my career as on the way down.

Starting point is 01:46:21 No. No. You're talking some crazy lane. You got it. I, we've talked a lot. All right, penis injections coming up. We've talked, yeah, we've talked a lot about strap on and nutrition, my ball set.

Starting point is 01:46:31 Nutrition this whole, this whole episode. But I want to take us in like speculated, because I think it's fun when we get another intelligent guy on here to talk about things that we don't always know everything about, but fun to debate stuff like this. What are your thoughts? Have you seen Ready Player One? First of all, no, I haven't yet.

Starting point is 01:46:45 Okay, so that's beside the point. I just want to ask your thoughts on what you think that tech is doing to us and humans. I'm noticing some things right now with posture, even with myself that I never, yeah, like it's really, it's worse than I thought and I'm aware of it, right? So I can't imagine some of these kids. Also, the addictive properties that come with it, if you read like Andy Galpins unplugged or Adam Outler's Irresistible,

Starting point is 01:47:11 both great books along these lines. But what do you think about Tech and General, what it could be doing to us overall health wise? I think it's like anything that's good and bad stuff. I think Tech is gonna help people get more information and more ability to just look at the absitor out there, just right down to tracking and measuring your heart rate variability and doing these sorts of things. And in the future, we're gonna be able to get quick tests to know, oh, well, you have

Starting point is 01:47:44 this genetic polymorphism, you know, you should do x, y, z. See, but that, with that point being made, don't you think that's making us even more disconnected? It's a good example that was when we first got navigation. How cool was it when we no longer had to open up these big ass? Well, I don't even remember anybody's phone number. Right. Well, no, you're right.

Starting point is 01:48:01 Right. So, my point is that these things that we we celebrate as because and I'm a fan too. And I'm not knocking. I'm just you know speculating here. I mean, don't you think that it could get to the point where you become so disconnected because you rely on all these tools? Yeah, of course. I mean, like God forbid, we did you know a few years ago, there was a slow solar flare that came dangerously close to the earth, would have knocked out all like electricity for like it would have taken three years to get the Irvings we're gonna have fucked we would have been right cuz who even knows how to like okay somebody can repair an iPhone but like setting up like a basic like from the bottom up

Starting point is 01:48:39 Electrical circuit and whatnot there's people that do, but we'd been a lot of world of hurt. You know, those fucking doomsday people would have been laughing all the way to the ass see we told you. So I mean, there's pluses and minuses. I think overall, you know, anytime there's some kind of technological advancement, it's always going to be there's pluses and minuses to it, right? But I think that one of the things I've learned about life is changes inevitable and it's coming with you like it or not, right?

Starting point is 01:49:13 So whether or not it's a good or bad thing it's here. So I agree with you, like if somebody with cervical spine issues, right, like looking down at your phone, like I actually try to make a conscious effort to go, like put my phone up in my, like at eye level and not just been down to look at it, right? And not be slumped over and whatnot.

Starting point is 01:49:36 I think that there are things that are going to help offset some of the things. I think overall, if I had to say one or the other, I think tech is probably a good thing. Yeah, you know. I would agree. But do you regulate your usage of your, like not your in a relationship? Do you find like, okay, I'm gonna only have phone time

Starting point is 01:49:54 at this time because it's taking away from. So one of the things I've had to acknowledge and as something that was a drawback on me, is I tend to be way too engaged in social media, in my emails and all that kind of stuff. But I'm just a very motivated person. Like I wanna make a difference. I really enjoy interacting with people.

Starting point is 01:50:12 You know, this gives me ability to interact with people. And, you know, in my past relationship, that was a big gripe. And you know what, rightly so. That's something that I have to take accountability for is like I was way too into my phone. Like how am I gonna, part of that was cause, you know, if you're unhappy, you kind of

Starting point is 01:50:32 distract yourself or not. But yeah, that was my fault, you know. And now like I can say, I'm still in it too much, 100%, but I can say that, you know, like when, when Holly and I go out, like if we're gonna bring the phones out, we're like, all right, I'm gonna do a post about this, is that okay? Because just maybe we haven't had time to do that or whatever. And then if we both agree to it, then it's fine to have it out.

Starting point is 01:50:57 But after that, phones go away. And we don't, we don't look at them, you know, when I'm with my kids, I used to be on my phone all the time. Now when I'm with my kids, I'm with my them, you know, when I'm with my kids, I used to be on my phone all the time. Now when I'm with my kids, I'm with my kids, you know, I tell my clients, every other weekend, you're gonna have a delayed response from me with your update because I'm with my kids, you know, and I'm trying to be with my kids and be conscious and have fun. And you know what, I've actually enjoyed that time so much more now, right? You know, right.

Starting point is 01:51:23 But yeah, Holly, you know, Holly called me out on it many times. She's like, she's like, I love Lane. You're my favorite person in the world. You're everything I want in a relationship. When I get Lane, you know, she's like, but when you're heads in your phone, I don't get Lane, you know? So she's like, if you want, you know, more for me, you should give me more.

Starting point is 01:51:44 She's 100% right. Well, that's a great communication from her and self-awareness on your part. How many people do you think are like that though? You know what, we read a book. Well, sorry, we listened to it on an audio book called Your Brain on Love, the Neurobiology of Healthy Relationships by Stan Tatkin.

Starting point is 01:52:03 And he's a neuroscientist who studies attachment theory in children. And basically, a lot of the book is basically like your relationship with your parents dictates a lot of how you interact with your partner. So I talk about like islands versus waves and anchors and like when we were listening to her like holy shit, like you really, it really helps you understand

Starting point is 01:52:31 not only why your partner is the way they are, but why you are the way you are, right? So Holly would be like what's like an island? So when she gets stressed, her kind of auto regulation response is like, if she'll get, if she gets stressed enough, she literally won't talk. Like, you cannot get her to talk if she's stressed up. Whereas if I'm really stressed out,

Starting point is 01:52:50 I'm like over communicating, like I'm trying to, yeah, yeah, yeah, like I'm really trying to like, like what's wrong, what's wrong with you? And like that sort of thing. And like, it's been really hard to, like, like I'm the kind of person that like if she stressed out, I wanna know what the problem is, I wanna fix the problem. I want to help the problem I've had to get to the point where oh if she's like really stressed out and

Starting point is 01:53:12 Get into the point where she's not talking anymore communicating anymore That means she needs space and I need to go outside or go for a walker something like that and just give her some space and That usually does the trick, you know, but that's so weird for me because the best thing like if I'm stressed out, the best thing she can do is just walk him and give me a hug. You know what I mean? But that's why like, and you people tend to give affection and love the way they want to receive it. Have you read the love languages yet?

Starting point is 01:53:37 That's a good one for you guys to read. So that's part of it, right? So like, I'm a, I'm a, my number one thing by far is words of affirmation probably because I was picked on a lot growing up And so like people told me I wasn't worth a shit So now having my partner, you know, and that like is that's like all the way at the bottom of her list So it is not a natural intuitive thing for her to give compliments, right? And then number two at least with her is like physical touch So like just like for her things are quality time and acts of service, right?

Starting point is 01:54:09 So she's so busy and she has so much going on, like how she perceives it is, Lane did the dishes, Lane cleaned this up because she calls me the man who sees no mess. Like knowing that I took that time out of my day to give her back time, that's like, like, shh, that's how she's achieved for her. But like, I think a lot of people, you know, in the book, Stan Tachin, he talked about how after age 25,

Starting point is 01:54:37 if you fall in love with somebody, like, yeah, you can make mistakes, but most people's picker isn't broken, you know, after age 25, like you fall in love with somebody because something is familiar to you, right? And we don't exactly know what causes it, but something causes it. And people say, oh, I keep picking the wrong person or this and that. And the reality is, is you probably, one, I heard another podcast, I think it was with the guy who's inside Quest

Starting point is 01:55:07 Tom Tom. Yeah, actually I got I messed up there. Yeah, I actually like Tom But he's awesome, but he uh, he said Him and his partner or wife. I'm not sure Lisa. Yeah, they do relationship theory. Yeah, and they were like you have to give somebody the keys to the kingdom Right, like you have to tell you have to this the kingdom, right? Like you have to tell, this is really hard for some people, is like to tell them, hey, I need this,

Starting point is 01:55:31 because you're afraid of being judged whatever, but like you have to tell your partner, I need this. Lisa, Lisa Bill, you talked about that on our show, when we interviewed her, she talked about that was a practice, they do every week, which I actually implemented after them, where Katrina and I at the end of the week, we'll look at it and they call it their one selfish desire. Like what's your one selfish desire that you want selfishly this week or that you want to do? Whatever that may be, would it be, I want to go sit at a bar

Starting point is 01:55:56 and go watch the basketball playoffs, you know, or whatever, or I want to go sit on the beach and read by myself or whatever it may be, how important that is to the relationship. Yeah, and but like people say, oh communication, communication, communication, but not just talking, but like actually saying, this is what I need. And so basically relationships come down to can that other person meet what you need in a relationship? And can you meet what they need? Because everything else you can fucking figure out, you know, but if somebody can't meet your needs, you know, it's probably not gonna work. And if you can't meet their needs

Starting point is 01:56:31 or aren't willing to meet their needs because sometimes, like I said, Holly doesn't, she's not really a compliment of the person. She's not like mean or anything like that. It's just not something that's intuitive for her, right? But she also knows that she doesn't have to do it a bunch, but I need that. Like that's something that I actually need, right?

Starting point is 01:56:49 So I'll see it too sometimes where it's like, not natural to her, but she'll go ahead and say it anyway. But I appreciate that because I appreciate it even more so because I know it doesn't come naturally. So that actually took, as weird as it sounds, that actually took some kind of self-sacrifice to do that, right? Just like when I make the bed. Or because like, if it's up to me, I do

Starting point is 01:57:10 all paper plates and I never make my bed. My mind, why would I, why would I make the bed? I'm just gonna get back into it. That's right. So, that is not something that's intuitive with me, but I do it because I know it's important to her. Right. So, all that kind of stuff, and we still,

Starting point is 01:57:27 like, the other thing Stan Tatt can talk to about that I really liked was he said, I'm, get out of your mind, the idea that there's a low maintenance human, like there is no such thing. Nothing is a bigger pain in the ass than another human being. In fact, when you get married, it should say, I take you to be my pain in the ass. But, you know, most people do better with a partner.

Starting point is 01:57:48 Most people do better with a partner than they do. Most people do better with a partner, because two people can do more than one, right? But yeah, like just listening to that, I would encourage anybody, like listen to show who's in the self-development, go get that book. Like even if you're single, go get that book,

Starting point is 01:58:03 because you'll understand yourself way better. And it's better to, like, some people would be scared off in a relationship with somebody, said, hey, this is important to me, this is what I need. But if you scare that person off and they won't write it in a way, you know? Nothing like it, nothing like, and I'm speaking from personal experience,

Starting point is 01:58:19 nothing like a divorce to really get you to reflect and become growth-minded when it comes to relationships. Well, and being accountable for the reasons that I wasn't happy were partly self-induced. That's right. That's right. But that takes a lot of self-awareness. You know, situations like that, you can either crumble under them or you can look at them and be like, all right, let's learn from this. Yeah, and I mean like that's, I could tell I've traveled to go through that. I never want to do that shit again Mm-hmm, you know and and the things that have gone on my life in the last two years. It's like Well, if you learn a lot from your mistakes, I've learned to fucking shitload, you know, so I

Starting point is 01:58:56 You know, I think that it's it's and it's funny because I still get people like who will like really just you know Break me over the colds for what happened on my social media this and that. And I mean, I get it, you know, I was a pretty judgemental person before this, this whole thing went down. But, uh, now when we talked last, you were, you were still kind of going through the whole avatar thing. Are you, is that done and over with? That's all done. Everything, everything workout the way you wanted to. And, um, you know, in a mediation, they say it's a good mediation if both sides walk out pissed off you know so I think it was probably fair you know

Starting point is 01:59:33 and you know what like I don't really look at what they're doing I don't I don't even know if they're still in existence I really you know I don't really follow what they were doing most of that I got from you so I don't know if they're growing or not or dying or what's going on with the business model. Yeah, no idea. I kind of look at that as like, you know, it's like, do you want to look up your ex-girlfriend stuff and see what she's doing? Probably, you know, if she's doing bad, it's probably not going to help you if she's doing

Starting point is 01:59:57 great. It's nice to see when she gets fat. You know what I'm saying? It doesn't make you feel good inside a little bit. Come on. I'm so focused on what's in front of me now, that I grieve that, I mourn that, and that was done. And really don't, I don't really think about it much day today. So what does that look like for you right now?

Starting point is 02:00:21 I mean, you're, you got a major client load. If you guys are managing almost a hundred people, that's a lot of people to be managing for sure. I would assume that that's a majority of what you're doing right now. I mean, you're, it's sound like you're, you've got a major client load. If you guys are managing almost a hundred people, that's a lot of people to be managing for sure. I would assume that that's a majority of what you're doing right now. Are you touring and doing a lot of seminars right now? What are you doing? We're doing, we're doing a little bit of everything, you know, we're, we're, we put a lot into the ebook. How's that going? Very well. Very well. We sold, you know, almost 5,000 copies of that book. Wow. Which was for an ebook on bodybuilding. It's pretty legit. Fantastic. Yeah, it's very legit.

Starting point is 02:00:49 And I'll definitely be doing, you know, we thought about doing an audio book of that, also possibly doing a hard, like an actual physical copy of that, that's possible. Doing more e-books. You know,'s that's I really enjoyed writing that book You know, and there's so much new data even since I wrote it like I would love to go back and do an updated version And then do a fat lost book do a palating book do all this kind of stuff. Oh, excellent. We're also um you know I can't really do an automated nutrition system right now for reasons I can't discuss. How long is that for, by the way? But I understand that there is a demand for that. But what I can do is exercise automation stuff. So we've done the workout builder on biolane.com.

Starting point is 02:01:42 So basically we now put up, you know, different training templates that are customizable and this is my coach, Andros and I. So he's my power often coach. Really, really smart guy. You guys are gonna love talking to him. Very brilliant, especially when it comes to stress management. And we have all these templates and basically, it's like 13 bucks a month

Starting point is 02:02:02 and you get access to all these templates that range from, they cover the whole gambit, you know, if anybody who wants to strength train or if you're a female and you want to get a bigger butt, you know, like we have all that stuff, if you're a high level power lifter, we've got that, you know, if you're a big time bodybuilder, we've got that. So for 13 bucks a month, it's hard to to be we've had a lot of really positive feedback people say Man, it's the best 13 bucks a month I spend and then obviously they also get our restricted content, you know our articles videos that sort of stuff And so we're focusing on that, you know putting more into that

Starting point is 02:02:40 We're also putting more into just like research and like, you know, basically like building for the future, you know, understanding like, like, Holly and I go through so much research and even keep so much data on our own clients. Just so in the future, like, we can, you know, make things that are better. You know, I don't want to get you in trouble, but God, that's a, that's fucking bullshit. You can't do anything with the nutrition calculator It's probably part of the mediation bro. That's fucking we're all in your in our business what we do like that's crazy to me Like that they could even get make that happen well how the fuck do you navigate around that?

Starting point is 02:03:21 Yeah, it's really hard to address this because there's a, you know, you can't even talk about it even. There's a, a non-disclosure. I mean, there's a non-dispiragement clause. So, you know, it's kind of, come on, you're communicating. Haha. We'll find a way. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:03:35 I'm really, I'm interested in this. Yeah. And I think that's just for our profession and what we do, I mean, you're cutting one of your limbs off. Like, they come on, you can't, you know, there, there, it's, it's, it's tough because, you know know it's not my choice to leave the company yeah but um you know sometimes to to get something uh and not take it to the point where uh both parties get destroyed and when you're talking about a mediation um both

Starting point is 02:04:00 parties have to compromise okay so so part of that is you compromising too it's not just like you they said, this is the problem. We got something in returns. Typical how it works. Like I'll get this, you get that type of deal. There's a, I'll just say that both sides made compromises. Okay.

Starting point is 02:04:14 And that's obviously a major compromise for you, right? Of course. Yeah, so. But yeah, I don't have any, you know, like I learned a lot. Don't wish them, you know, like I learned a lot. Don't wish them, you know, I'm sure they did what they thought was best for their business. You know, like sometimes things don't work out. Just like a relationship, it doesn't mean that people

Starting point is 02:04:34 are evil people or anything like that. Business is business, you know. It should happen. You just, you work, you and Holly work together and did you just buy a house together? Yeah, so we just bought a house. Okay, are you, you are you are the rats looks beautiful? Yeah, it's gorgeous Is there any do you have any fear of like commitment because you guys are working together bought a house together very quickly? Do you ever get scared like do you ever think that you ever think she came after you just to get closer to us?

Starting point is 02:05:02 Sometimes I feel like that. You know what's funny is you know, Holly is a very beautiful woman and it's funny like I'll pretty much get people on like a weekly basis who will basically in a very nice way inform me that I'm punching above my weight class. I'll kick my coverage. You know kind of give me this look like so what do you got going on? I'm like, eh, all right, you know. He's packing. Yeah. I can just tell you that like, you know, she is equally committed because I mean, she moved her whole life here.

Starting point is 02:05:31 Yeah. Right. And I had somebody, somebody was like, oh, she's just going after a green card. I can tell you, she does not like America so far. Like she much prefers Australian culture. But it's more important to her to be with the person she loves than to you know, be in place she loves because she knows she also knows that like part of it's just adapting, you know, and then she will get there and then she'll like it. But I just kind of had

Starting point is 02:05:54 to chuckle about that. I was like, okay, guy. But you know, she's just as in terms of like what she's sacrificed and what she's had to do and all that, we level playing for you. Do you ever get fearful like, oh man, you know, I got out of a marriage and terribly do you ever get scared? Like what if I'm doing the wrong thing? Does ever happen? Are you guys pretty? Well, I mean, I every, you know, there's a risk in anything. Yeah, you know, like even the fall in love is a risk, you know, because it's like anybody who's done it, you're literally like, it's like literally letting go. Do you know what I mean? Like you literally have to let go to fall in love.

Starting point is 02:06:29 So if you want, if you want, yeah, if you want, I mean, you can get really fucking hurt, you know? But, you know, I don't want to look back and live my life and have, you know, like it's a great partnership right now. And I hope it, you know, and I think that the big thing about her is she's very self-aware and I like to think I'm the same way. And we're very focused on trying to improve

Starting point is 02:06:56 in terms of how we interact and that sort of thing. And I don't think there's many people out there who do that. You know what I mean? People kind of go, well I am how I am and you need to adapt to me. Now, you guys seem to have some really good communication. You seem to have a really playful relationship from what you guys show. She's very funny.

Starting point is 02:07:12 Yeah, she's actually really one of the most, one of the funniest people I've been around. Which I think it's really important to have that in a relationship. Now, if there is something that slips you guys up or causes a fight, is there something typical that you guys are having to work around? Like, you know what I don't really fight much.

Starting point is 02:07:27 Like, she's got her things that annoy me and I've got my things that annoy her. I don't think we've really had like too many fights. What, what, what annoys her about you that you're working on? Uh, messy. Oh, are you messy? And I tend to be disorganized.

Starting point is 02:07:43 So like, even like today, like, I mean, she wasn't really clear on what her role was gonna be today, like in terms of like videos and that sort of thing, like, and she, like, she has this thing like, she's very beautiful and she hates the idea of just being like, somebody good looking, who's put on camera, just be good looking.

Starting point is 02:08:02 She wants to be taken seriously because she is very intelligent. I must have said something that made her think that she was just going to be like the model. She said that she's like, I don't just want to be a fitness model. Because basically she doesn't want to be unemployed. It's always funny when I see that on Instagram it says, fit this model. I'm like, so good. I'm employed.

Starting point is 02:08:28 So yeah, that's a big thing. So I do a poor job of sometimes communicating like when I've like set up something for business, that probably annoys her. So yeah, that's, you know, but everybody's got their shit. Do you guys have an assistant or anybody that cute keeps you guys from running? All right.

Starting point is 02:08:44 Our assistant, David, he's awesome. David Mathis. I'll give him a shout out like he's been so he can't he actually Reach out to us because he was it. I went and spoke to some people in Bill Campbell's lab at us F Bill Campbell's a friend of mine and David was there David was an armeumatic who beat ania. Like it was really like literally went to the hospital. It was dying. He beat anorexia. I know I can talk about this because we've talked about it before on air. And David actually reached out to us after we talked like when we were there for a few minutes. And he was like, you know, I live in the tent Bay Area. He's like, you know, if you guys ever need anything, like I would just love to help. Anyway, I can.

Starting point is 02:09:27 And I was like, well, really, we need a lot of help because this is when this was like right in the middle of the shit was hitting the fan and flying all over the room. You know what I mean? So this would have been like October of last year. And man, he's been such a helpful guy. So now he's actually, we've kind of groomed him under us and he's actually a coach under Biolay now. So like, he's taking on clients and like,

Starting point is 02:09:50 he's such a passionate guy and he does such a great job for us like, and he worked, I couldn't afford to pay him because I was paying 20 grand to attorneys every month. You know, like, I couldn't afford to pay him and I told him like, man, I can't afford to pay him, and I told him, like, man, I can't afford to pay you. All I can offer you is experience right now. He never complained, he never resented us for it. You know, now we're in a position to be able to pay him.

Starting point is 02:10:15 And, you know, he did just a good work when he wasn't getting paid, is when he's getting paid. That's cool. He's a great, great guy. So, like, we are, we, Hollen, I talk about how lucky we are to have David in our lives all the time. So you guys are,

Starting point is 02:10:28 you guys are structuring it in a way where you'll actually have trainers underneath you that are also helping. So is that, is there already trainers in place besides him? So just David for now, because we don't have enough spill over just yet. Okay. But yeah, we would like to do that where we've got, you know, people we trust under us because one,

Starting point is 02:10:44 not everybody can afford our time, right? But they still want to get somebody that they trust that, and some people honestly just want to, like, there were so many people who bought the book just because they like me and want to support me. Who didn't, who weren't even really that interested in the book, they were like, they talk about all the time, like, you guys don't have anything to buy. Like we just want to, I want to support you, you know? Like so if you want to support us right now,

Starting point is 02:11:06 you can buy my book and Holly's recipe book. But, you know, like, I don't run those commercials. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm fucking terrible advertiser. I'm like, I don't say anything, but buy it right now. Buy it now.

Starting point is 02:11:21 But yeah, it's, you know, David's been awesome. yeah, well like eventually as we bring in people hopefully people we trust really well Who's the young guy that videos for you to or for Kibera Kibera and Kibera is awesome Kibera Kibera was another guy who came on when I was right in the middle of the shit um, and you know like he you can see that transition in the cool videos that you started doing. Yeah, so so cabira Cabira had no experience with Like he just did video editing for fun

Starting point is 02:11:51 And he was like he was like tell me like he lived in Boston He was like man. I would love to come down and do this for you and you don't have to pay me and you know XYZ And I was like, I'm not gonna let you do that for free and move your whole life, you know and He sent me a video. He made this like comeback video for me for powerlifting. And it was with, you know, everybody, it was just footage he took from online. It was fucking awesome. It was awesome. And he said something to me that made me change my mind because I was like, dude, you don't, like, you don't want to be around my life right now. My life is a smoldering pile of shit right now. You do not want to be around it. And he was like, like, you don't want to be around my life right now. My life is a smoldering polish shit right now. You do not want to be around it.

Starting point is 02:12:27 And he was like, dude, that is the best stuff to get right now. People seeing you and you're vulnerable. Do you know, I'm going to be able to help? And he said, he said, he said, a live and Gary Vanertruck, he's like, don't just be involved. Don't just do your process, document the process. He's like, because that is going to make it so much better. Cause, you know, for us, like you guys, people, like, yeah, I should have liked the information, but they like you guys.

Starting point is 02:12:48 That's why they resonate with you guys, right? That's why they're listening to the podcast. Because you can like some information, but if you don't like the person that's disseminating it, you just go find it somewhere else. Right. So people like you want to support you. So, you know, and by, it's tough because a lot of people just want to separate

Starting point is 02:13:06 personal and business. I'm sorry, when you own your own business, it is personal. Well, especially today. You know what I mean? Today, we're on a whole different ballroom. Your own brand. 15, 20 years ago, it wasn't like that.

Starting point is 02:13:14 And I'm always, I've always been a really open person, you know? So, like some things, I don't disseminate because of legal reasons. And also just for, just trying to be respectful, you know, but Yeah, like I share my stuff and hopes that People will learn because the only way we're born we're a blank state right the only way you learn is you make mistakes Either something works or it doesn't work if it works you keep doing if it doesn't work you stop doing it right if you're if you're smart The better way to do it is watch other people's mistakes and say, oh, nope, not gonna fucking do that right. So we know

Starting point is 02:13:49 we don't put our hand on the stove, not because we never suddenly put our hands on the stove because we saw somebody else put their hands on the stove right. So yeah, that's kind of why I share this stuff. But you know, my team like Cabir is out here now, Andres, our coach is out here now. He's doing more business with us in terms of making training, training templates for Biolane, and he writes a lot of articles for the site. David, Cabirra, Andres. Now that Cabirra's came on, have you felt

Starting point is 02:14:16 a different energy around your audience and the people that are listening to you? Are you getting like, because he's starting to show that side of you? Because I know you have put some videos out there that really have been vulnerable and humanizing. Like, so have you seen the tone and the people falling, you change it all? Is it still pretty consistent?

Starting point is 02:14:32 It's still pretty consistent, but I think it's getting more of cross my personality a little bit better, you know? So it's more representative of who you really are. I mean, after one of the last shows that you did with us, you switched over a lot of people that didn't like you, that listened to us, that, I mean, that what you were, you're still today. We actually got a lot of comments. Yeah, you're still today, probably the most talked

Starting point is 02:14:54 about person in our private forum. It's awesome. Because you do have a polarizing personality, so you still have plenty of people that don't like you. But you tend to win people over every time you come to hell. But I think what that it boils down to is it's like, I'm willing to admit when I fuck up where I was wrong. You know, like, I can say that, you know?

Starting point is 02:15:12 Like you guys even said something earlier and you said something and I go, oh, I don't know, I don't really know much about that. Like, you know, at least I can admit it when it happens. There's a lot of, there's a lot of people who just cannot admit when they've done wrong. I said, man, when you have passion and conviction and you're gonna have an opinion,

Starting point is 02:15:28 and not everyone's gonna agree with you. If you try to live your life by having everybody agree with you all the time, that's a shitty way of doing it. Say nothing, do nothing, be nothing, exactly, Aristotle. Exactly. My mother, she gave me some great advice, might be, this is, I'll bring it back to mom because I

Starting point is 02:15:46 My mom is one of the strongest people I know Mom's been deal with a health issue for she's she's a private person so I don't want to put it all out there but you know with a health issue for about four years now and She's just a fucking tough woman, you know, in fact my dad they were talking there to diet and mom said dad turned or and dad said You know Ellen you're the toughest lady. I know I've been with you for 43 years and you're the toughest woman I know and I would say that it's a hundred even Holly when she met my mom she goes The first time they met was not a it was it was very high stress We'll just put it that way. Oh wow. But they get along great now.

Starting point is 02:16:25 And she said to me, she's like, honey, your mom is one of the toughest ladies I've ever met. But mom said to me when I was 15 years old, because I had my peers, you know, didn't accept me. I'm going to, I just, I was so caught up in like trying to make people happy and trying to please people. And I'm still that way to a little extent. I'm a very empathetic person. So I tend to, if people aren't happy around me or unhappy with me, I tend to be unhappy.

Starting point is 02:16:50 She said, honey, some people are going to hate you just for breathing, just for existing just for being who you are. And it doesn't matter how much you try to please them. So you might as well be who you are. And at least you know that the people like you, like you for who you really are and the people who don't like you, at least they don't like you for who you really are. It's like I like a line from a five finger death punch song. I think he said, I'd rather you hate me for everything I am than love me for something I'm not. You know, and that's kind of how I feel.

Starting point is 02:17:20 You know, would you say that's one of the best traits that you picked up from your mother? Yeah. And hard work. You know, would you say that's one of the best traits that you picked up from your mother? Yeah, and hard work my parents are very hardworking people. They're very passionate people and definitely very opinionated hard-headed people You know like you don't have my mom's from the eyes been signed We always say you don't have to ask an eyesman what their opinion is because they're telling it to you You know my grandfather was like my hero and growing up like the most intelligent man I've ever met greatest generation World War II, like legitimate war hero. No, though, he'd never talk about it. I have a lot of respect for people to speak their mind now. I don't think. Papo, now looking back like fuck, Papo would have been a hard person to deal with, you know

Starting point is 02:17:59 what I mean? But like, man, you want to, there's nobody who has, actually, he had so much heart, you know, even though he's kind of like salty, you know, sea dog kind of personality, he had so much heart underneath that. And actually one of the best, one of my best friends, his name is Ed LaBreck and he's not on social media or anything like that, but he's, he's a very good friend to me and I respect him a great deal. Maybe he'll listen and hear this, but he gave me probably the best compliment I've ever gotten. And he said, because he's known a lot of guys and Navy SEALs and like a lot

Starting point is 02:18:30 of really good men. He said, dude, when I was going through like the worst part of my life, he said, I got to tell you this man, he's like, I've known a lot of really good men. He said, you've got more heart than anybody I've ever met. And he said, you just, you care a lot about people. And he's like, sometimes it gets you in trouble. And sometimes you say shit that you probably shouldn't. So a lot of times when I get angry about like online or whatever, it's because I'm passionate about defending people from getting the wrong information and having people

Starting point is 02:19:00 tell them the wrong shit. Probably comes out wrong. Probably drop too many F-bombs. But you know what? I'm always gonna, I'm gonna try and do it my way. and having people tell them the wrong shit. Probably comes out wrong, probably got too many f-bombs, but you know what, I'm always gonna, I'm gonna try and do it my way, because when I'm 80 years old, I'm, hopefully 80 years old and dying.

Starting point is 02:19:13 You know, I would have been able to look back and you know Frank Snatcher say, you know what, I did it my way. Do you know what trait that you've picked up from your parents that you don't so much like about yourself? Probably find a chance to think about that. Well, I know I'm more like my mother than my father.

Starting point is 02:19:31 And I think that your best traits and your worst traits are almost always right up against each other, right? So the thing that people will absolutely love about you also produces something that they're not gonna like about you, right? So like- Your greatest strength is your greatest weakness. Yeah, so like, I'm a really hard working person

Starting point is 02:19:51 and very passionate and sometimes that probably gets the better of me, you know what I mean? I probably jump a little bit too quick to defend something and I'll even do it on Twitter, like I've apologized to some people because I'm actually misread what you said. I'm sorry, that was wrong. But yeah, like I said, the...

Starting point is 02:20:13 I would think that happens quite a bit because that happened to me a few times when I first started getting on Instagram and I was responding to people after I do kind of like controversial posts and realized that some people were just like, you just, you can't tell, there's no sarcasm, doesn't come out well and tag. And then I rip them. Like, oh shit, like, you're a fan and you were like,

Starting point is 02:20:32 just being funny and I didn't pick up. Somebody was like, kind of, we, like, Holly thought somebody was crushing me about my personal life about what had happened. And she was like, time it up this response, to just rip this person a new one, you know, and I looked at the post, like, no, man, they're actually being supportive. Don't say that, you know, like, yeah, I, you know, my parents,

Starting point is 02:20:53 um, yeah, I would say my mom, my mom, I love my mom. And she's a wonderful person, but she would be a difficult person to live with. There's a reason I moved away when I was 18 years old, but I love my mother very much. That is not me saying I don't like my mom or I don't love my mom. I love my mom. Scoot you mate that Claire,

Starting point is 02:21:13 she's a big mind-pump listener. She probably will listen to it. She probably will. But she's a very, very strong personality, you know, and I'm kind of the same way. So, you know, but I really like. Yeah, but you wouldn't want to get rid of that trait, you know, that's the thing. No same way. So, you know, but I really like, yeah, but you wouldn't want to get rid of that trait, you know, that's the important thing.

Starting point is 02:21:28 That's an important trait. Like, like, actually, like Holly said something, like, because one time I'm like, look, I know mom can be, you know, and Holly said, she's like, no, it's okay, she's like, she cares. She's like, and she even comments on my family, she's like, I love your family. She's like, I've never met people who care more than your family.

Starting point is 02:21:50 So it's like whenever mom's like, get a little bit overbearing or whatever, Holly goes, well, that's because she cares. You know, so I'm probably a little bit like that a little bit the same way, you know. I think relationships are the best place to find these things. You know, like I didn't realize the differences between people. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 02:22:04 I mean, I have a relationship with Katrina that's we're so polar opposite the way we were raised with our families. Every decision that they make, they gather together and they decide as a family and they all live close together and I was the complete opposite. She's like that.

Starting point is 02:22:19 Oh yeah, so it's really challenging for me because they'll have every you know, every weekend, there's a family get together. And I just don't, I wasn't raised doing that. And it's almost, it's borderline uncomfortable for me. Even though we've been together for a really long time. And I don't like to be anti-social or be like a ball humbug about things,

Starting point is 02:22:39 but it's just how I was raised. So that's a trait that I think of that I have because of the way I was raised that I wish I could get rid of because I wish that I could enjoy being, and over years, I think of that I have because of the way I was raised that I wish I could get rid of because I wish that I Could enjoy being and over years I think I've kind of trained myself to try and let let let loose and enjoy it more But you move an introvert. I'm not that's what's funny. That's what's really weird is that I'm I'm extroverted

Starting point is 02:22:57 But when it comes to family stuff. Yeah, maybe I am because I we didn't I wasn't around my cousins and aunts and uncles and my You know my my family kept us really tight and just our family and we didn't let a lot of people in and my parents didn't really socialize a lot with friends. And so getting older and then getting a relationship where someone is their family is everything. Yeah, it's a tough transition for sure. Speaking of the devil, she's actually outside the building

Starting point is 02:23:21 right now. Perfect timing. Good time to end. Well, amen. Always a great time having you on. Yep. I love it. I love it. You guys, you know, like I said, people ask you about you guys and like, how we get along and I'm like, you know what? You can have different opinions about things, but good people are good people. You know what I mean? And you guys all like reached out to me when you knew things were kind of going bad in my life and asked if there's anything you could do.

Starting point is 02:23:42 I know style called me, you know, like, that's how I judge people. Not on whether you like carbs or fats or whatever, you know what I mean? That's what good people are good people, you know what I mean? And that's what makes a difference. And I can just tell you guys, anybody listening, these guys have always treated me way better than they had to.

Starting point is 02:24:00 And I consider it a big time privilege every time they have me on the show and I love doing it. Oh, I appreciate it. I feel like I'm right. me on the show and I love doing it. Oh, appreciate it. I feel like I'm wearing my sleeves. Thanks, man. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy

Starting point is 02:24:13 and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbumble at Mind Pump Media.com. The RGB Superbumble includes maps on a ballad, maps for performance and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased, expert exercise programming designed by Sal and Iman Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout nutrients in over 200 videos, the RGB Superbumble is like having

Starting point is 02:24:42 Sal and Iman adjusting as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a 430-day money back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at MindPumpMedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing mine pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.

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