Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 970: Dr. Jordan Shallow on Training, Travel & Vaccines (with Guest Ben Greenfield)

Episode Date: February 18, 2019

In this episode Sal, Adam, and Justin talk to Dr. Jordan Shallow about his travels and his adventures with Ben Pakulski. Mid episode the boys call Ben Greenfield to find out what he was thinking when he posted his recent Twitter post on vaccines. This opened a can of worms and led to a lively debate between Jordan and Sal. Making the compelling argument why men and women SHOULD NOT be separated in sports at a young age. (5:17) Jordan opens up about his travels across the world and in particular his adventures with Ben Pakulski. The importance of healthy debate to learn and grow, lessons learned in the process & MORE. (11:30) Why he aims to ‘teach people to teach’. (51:20) Is he diving into how the mind plays a role in how he moves? How perception is open to interpretation. (56:28) The gnarly things he witnessed involving drugs in the gyms overseas. (1:06:46) Jordan gets personal on the current situation he is going through. (1:09:33) Live call in with Ben Greenfield where the guys address, what’s the deal with that vaccine tweet? (1:22:30) The Great Debate: Should the government have the authority to inject what they deem to be good into your children? Who owns your body and mind? (1:34:25) The CRAZY travel schedule for Jordan in 2019 and his push to get Mind Pump back on the road. (1:58:30) Featured Guest/People Mentioned: Dr. Jordan Shallow D.C (@the_muscle_doc)  Instagram RX'D RADIO The Muscle Doc – Dr. Jordan Shallow DC Ben Greenfield (@bengreenfieldfitness)  Instagram John Brenkus (@johnbrenkus_)  Twitter Ben Pakulski ® | Official (@bpakfitness)  Instagram Kenny Santucci (@kennysantucci)  Instagram Jordan Peters (@trainedbyjp)  Instagram Sam Harris (@samharrisorg)  Instagram Ryan Holiday (@ryanholiday)  Instagram Paul Chek (@paul.chek)  Instagram Products Mentioned: February Promotion: MAPS Performance is ½ off!! **Code “GREEN50” at checkout** Mind Pump Episode 955: John Brenkus AAF.com: Alliance of American Football Brad Schoenfeld's 3 Evidence Based Guidelines of Hypertrophy Training Conservation of energy - Wikipedia MI40 Gym Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia Dr. Jordan Shallow: Taking Ownership Of Your Healthcare And The 3 Pillars Of Evidence Based Research — Barbell Shrugged #376 The Obstacle Is the Way: The Timeless Art of Turning Trials into Triumph - Book by Ryan Holiday Ben Greenfield Tweet on Vaccines AMID MEASLES OUTBREAK, WASHINGTON STATE LEGISLATORS CONSIDER BILL TO REMOVE PERSONAL BELIEF AS REASON TO FORGO MMR VACCINE Living 4D Podcast Show Notes Episode 11 – Dr. Sherri Tenpenny Saying No to Vaccines: A Resource Guide for All Ages - Book by Sherri Tenpenny Ben’s resources on vaccines Nike's Results Put Kaepernick Gamble in Perspective

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You guys are in for a treat. Kind of a, in this episode, whirlwind. It was. We go left. We go right.

We zig, we zig. Yeah. Yeah, it was a good one. Jordan Chalau, one of our good friends, the extremely knowledgeable, technical, powerlifting and movement wizard. This guy is, I've called him Beast before, but I don't mean he's a beast because he's a big dude,

although he is. He is beast from X-Men. He's the blue monster guy who's really strong, but then is super smart. So it's this weird, this weird combination. To the point that we are going to have to write a guide for some people post show on how to Figure out what half the stuff he says sometimes is. I always tease him about every time he comes in the show But you know what? Well, we actually touched on this in the podcast, you know, his goal really is

to educate the educators. So, you know, yeah, right, even though I'm teasing him, then that is the right vocabulary to use for the people that he's speaking to. He's not trying, he's not admitting that I'm trying to breach the masses or the average chain or Joe who's listening. I'm trying to school the people out there that are. Teach the teachers, right. They're teachers. Right.

Yeah. And what do we talk about in this that what we go into his travels, we talk about him and Ben Pekolsky, those are funny stories. He tells some funny stories there. What they teach each other, because of course Pekolsky is this super smart, educated body builder. Right. Jordan, I agree on everything.

They don't. Which I thought is fantastic. They don't. And so that was really cool. And then we talk about some of his personal stuff. He's going through some difficult times right now. So it gets pretty deep there. And then we get on the phone with one of our friends, like this little surprise in the

episode. Yeah. In the episode's real spicy. Well, about four days ago, Ben Greenfield had dropped a tweet about vaccines and super controversial. And I said a message saying, I gotta get you on the podcast and ask a few questions, mainly with the fuck were you thinking, just say his statement like that. And so we had him on the show. Just briefly, we called him and let him explain a little bit and then hung up.

And to be honest, as good as this entire episode is, it became fire after that because then it was like charged. Right, well then shallow put kind of his two cents in and then we went down a little bit of the political rabbit hole. But what's nice and I think that hopefully people that are listening will appreciate is that shallow and us don't agree on a lot of things politically. So you can hear a really intelligent debate about some things that are, I think,

a little third rail-esque. Yeah, it was fun though. Oh, it was great. I like, I don't mind talking to people who disagree with me at all, as long as they can make good, intelligent arguments, and it's not like insulting each other. Because at the end of the day,

we all just wanna learn more and understand each other more. And so, and then we have a lot of fun with it too. And Jordan's a great sport. He's very outspoken, honest, incredible integrity, and we all just respect each other. So that part was a lot of fun. Yeah. Now he's got a great podcast.

He gets deep into fitness and movement, but he's also a funny guy. You got to check it out. It's called RxDradio. So that's RxAposter-Fede radio, great podcast. Of course, on Instagram, he's got a great Instagram page. It's at the Muscle Doc, and there's an underscore in between the and muscle and muscle and doc.

And then his website is pre-script.com. So make sure you go check it out. The guy is got, he's one of the few people that we really, really, really trust in this industry of fitness. So he's got great stuff. Go check them out. Also, before we start the episode, I want to tell everybody,

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So picture that in your mind, what do they look like? They have an aesthetic balanced physique and they can move. They can move in different planes. They can move quickly. They have lots of strength, lots of power, and lots of stamina. You get all of those aspects of physical performance with Maths performance. Again, it's maps fitnessproducts.com and the code is green 50 for 50% off. And also, we have other maps programs on that site, so you can find one that suits your goals, your needs, and your fitness history. So here we go.

Here we are talking to our good friend, Dr. Jordan Chalo. Yeah. We had John Brinkis, who you probably won't recognize name, because I didn't. This is so great. I love when this happens, where we like agree to an interview, because we see that they have enough social presence.

They have a TED talk or something compelling we can talk to. And he had a very compelling argument. So this guy has a TED talk and it's about why men and women should not be separated in sports at early age. And I thought, this is a really compelling argument. And we were looking forward to debating this. and then I realized when I look him up Oh shit This is the dude that's hosted and is responsible for six Emmys for the sports science show

You know, I love that great. I love that show. I think I was still around right so he was great dude. Absolutely great interview and a really compelling argument why we shouldn't separate boys and girls, especially at a young age and that we should just allow it to naturally happen. And he wasn't making the case necessarily that it's going to be at the top level equal representation. He wasn't making that case at all.

In fact, he said more like at those levels, sure, you're probably in a lot of sports, going to see a lot of male domination. But at the younger levels and the younger ages, you're not going to see that so much and it may cause a lot of rising girls to compete at higher levels and harder levels to improve their performance. And he used the example of the WNBA and how much better they are today than they were when they first came out and some of the performance and other sports. So, if we're going to go down that road, I said, sure, that makes sense. If people aren't going to be angry that there's going to be no women in the NFL, but at the lower levels we'll see more representation. But I honestly don't think anybody would want that. But it did make a good case. if you think about it like there's a kid I grew up playing hockey with at the age of 14

He was six foot seven his name was Sean Dusharm and when I was 16 years old with a slap shot through my blocker He broke two bones in my hand holy shit. How is it fair? Like he was a man playing against boys like I was five foot one 160 pounds and I'm looking down the barrel of this fucking gun four times a week. But it's like, if yeah, it kind of makes sense of like, well, they just think of the gradation of size and skill. Don't look at gender at that age because we had a girl planner team shows she was 16. Right. Because up till that point, we were all kind of in and yeah. Right. And then like the Sean Dusharms of the world blew up to be six foot seven. Then it was like, okay. And then there's a filtering process. And the compelling argument that he makes is that you know we're we're telling girls that they're basically not

good enough at such a young age when technically some of them really are I mean at the at the ages of seven you know there's probably a lot of girls that are as good or better than a lot of boys at soccer. Fastest skill in my school and I was elementary school was a girl. Well what happens is I think this isn't a gladwell book. It might be outliers. They talk about people who are born earlier in the year being higher-performance because they, they, you know, 12 months at a certain age is when you're developing is a huge difference in size.

And then they, it's not necessarily the development in size. It's the availability and access to better coaching to help breed that potential. Right. Right. So it's like like if you think about it, the female, if they're not getting the same level of coaching are gonna rise to the same level just from a nurture standpoint regardless of nature. And he also brought up some really cool,

I mean, think of fucking darts or even golf. He's like, if you take like the best golfing women and the best golfing, and you compare their drives, they're almost exactly the same. The title is long, it was only 40 yards or something. Yeah, it was, it was so tiny. And there's, like, girls that are better than five of the top guys, you know. It's got to go. But, you know, I honestly think that would be less popular among women than, uh, than even among men. Because I honestly think, especially in college at the high levels in certain sports,

they would limit their access to scholarships as a result because I did that. Not necessarily. And I don't think people will be happy when because look, there's police departments and the military and fire departments that have different standards. And you eliminate all that. The best humans for the job. You know, you see what you see what the football league is doing right now? Did you did you watch? I didn't watch it yet. So it was last weekend is, and the point to your point, Sal, when I was going to debate a little bit with you, is that what it would do is you would just have the best of the best, and then there would be a

feeder league for all sports. So it would be your male or female, doesn't matter. If you're that bad ass, you make it to professional NFL, you make it to professional NBA or whatever. And then if you didn't, then you would fall short in these feeder leagues, and you could potentially have one, two, three, and it doesn't have to necessarily be just two of them. And we're actually seeing this happening right now in the NFL.

It's not the NFL's actual, they're supplying the coaches, they're promoting it on NFL network. I cannot believe it can't think of the name of it maybe ducking looking up. I know, I've actually seen it. It just went live last weekend. And it's basically the G league, or I can basketball for football.

And with footballs had the Canadian league, they've had a UFL or whatever, that in the past, but never has it been associated looking at it with the NFL. And this has got. So the Canadian league and compared to the NFL, they're like, how many levels down would you say? Oh man.

Well, it's a different game, man. Is it really? Yeah, like, how many levels down would you say? Oh man. Well, it's a different game, man. Is it really? Yeah, like there's one less down, the whole game's playing. Really? I didn't know that. It's three downs, 110 yards, AAF starting quarterbacks and... New Alliance.

Interesting. I was a big fan of the XFL if I'm being honest. Yeah, that was just because the made up names. Yeah, it was incredible. It was like WWE meets like Thursday night football. No, there was rumors again that they were gonna try and make it happen again too. I think this is gonna be great.

I mean, I didn't get a chance to watch it personally myself. I heard nothing but positive things from it. But this is what my point of even bringing this up was to Sal, is that, you think that it would kill it, but no, it wouldn't. It would actually open it for like leagues like this where it's just, you didn't quite make it to the NFL. You did get a Kurt Warner, you know,

from the Canadian League. And so I think that was like a lot of the basis of what the argument was to have this under league was like, well, we can develop and foster more talent and they get more time under, you know, they're built and then we could bring them into the league. Right. I think he came from arena football.

But arena, same idea. I get what you're saying. So, Jordan, I want to hear about your travels. Have you been gone for a while? Yeah. Where have you been? What's been going on? What's the deal?

I feel like I left in August and I just touched down like two days ago and then I leave next Sunday and then I'm gone till like August. Where have, is it all been, I heard you've talked about Australia, has it all been there, or have you been in other places? So start off in, oh Jesus, I started off in Toronto.

What was I doing in Toronto? I spoke at Swiss, so that was, every two years it gets put on, a huge honor to be included in that, just real long form. There was a Tibido Meadows, Scott Stevenson. There's, I think there was 30 of us and it was a three-four day event held in Mississauga. That was my first one. Then I did a private seminar in Toronto. I was in Lebanon in December.

Oh, what was that like? In, and you guys been to the Middle East? No. Okay, Lebanon's like Middle East light. Like, it's like, oh no, it's crazy. Like, it's, what does that mean? It means so when Lebanon is like a, like you see cheeks, not just eyes.

Wow. Wow. There, that's it for today's episode. No. No, like so you can go, there's this, there's this place called, it's our Lady of Lebanon. It's a statue of the Virgin Mary at the top of the highest peak in Lebanon.

And you can literally see the entire country. You can't fathom how small this country is. It's not like I was in Beirut, but you can see from this peak, you can see Beirut and you can see Tripoli. No, that's not right, is that right? That was me, bro. So there's just, you look at me like I'm

Jew, I'm really tired it bro, it's like there was a guy who thought that getting his Jamaica was gonna take me 15 hours over the first year. Yeah, so that's it there. There's like a spiral staircase. You can walk all the way up and literally you can see like you can see the Mediterranean. So there's this weird sort of like Lion King moment that happened where like these two dudes brought me up like super nice kids that were sort of like Lion King moment that happened, where like these two dudes brought me up, like super nice kids that were kind of like

chauffeur in me around the whole time. And so remember in Lion King, we're at the top of the rock and they're like looking and then they're just like, like everything this untouches is yours. So it was kind of that moment. I'm like, what's over there in the dark? Cause it's like that's Syria.

Like you don't go, you don't go over to Syria, but it was like a very thin first world veneer like Martyr Square, which is not an enticing name by any stretch of the imagination, but there's like Hue blow. There's Maserati. There's Prada Gucci and then there's like mortar shells from like 30 years ago like it's really like There's a very thin veneer the first world and like you're driving like 30 years ago. Like it's really like, there's a very thin veneer of the first world and like you're driving like. Now is Lebanon a Christian country in the Middle East

or are they a predominantly Muslim or both? Both and like it's surprisingly harmonious. Like there's just outside Marters Square, there's actually one, I think it's the second largest mosque in the world, that's it there with the blue. Oh, interesting. And then across the street, there was like a 80 foot Christmas tree. And then like, so it's the second largest mosque in the world. That's it there with the blue. Oh, interesting. And then across the street, there was like a 80-foot Christmas tree. And then like, so it's fairly harmonious, but it's interesting,

because there's two major, I felt like Anthony Bourdain, like a strong Anthony Bourdain while I was there. I wish I would have recorded the whole thing. But so like, you would drive through like, Hezbollah checkpoints, which is like- Wait a minute, would you say what? Hezbollah, like, I know who they are a minute, say what? Hezbollah, like- I know who they are.

You actually have to drive through their checkpoints? Yeah, holy shit. Yeah, no, I was freaking the fuck out. But it's a weird kind of like, you know what I mean? Yeah, because you don't look. Yeah, you look like a bastard as a kid. I immediately stood out. It's kind of like a hostile culture.

Like not necessarily aggressive, but like everyone sort of narrow, browed like people know you're not from there. I had never felt more out of place in my entire life. You getting funny looks and shit? Yeah, like, but not funny, like, go to Tokyo, and everyone's like, oh, not, but like, kind of like, what the fuck are you,

what are you doing here, man? Like, Germany's that way, sort of thing. It was really strange. But there's a weird sort of relationship, because Syria's predominantly ISIS, now we're gonna mess this up But one of the Hasbola is either Sunni or Shia and then ISIS is the other so as much as you know Christianity and Muslims might have their problems or Christians and Muslims might have their problems within the In fighting between those two Muslim groups the Hasbola hate the

Isis more than they hate the Christian. So the Christian sort of just like fly under the radar of this like and just try not to get caught up in the crossfire. So like I mean we're pulling up to the checkpoint. Camouflage M16s and I'm sweating. I'm like what the fuck did I get myself into? It's like I can talk about hip stability anywhere in the fucking world. These guys got M16s.

Why am I here right now? And they're like, man, it's totally cool. Like you're not isis, are you? I was like, no, it's like, then you're fine. And so it was a weird sort of, you know the bird that eats out of the alligator's mouth? Yeah, that does you. Yeah, it was just like, as an ice cream.

Great visual. Yeah, really strange, but like the most. What are they asking you questions and stuff? Or they like, hey, no, they just kind of like peering the. Now are you are you rolling solo at this point? Are you with Ben? Oh, no, this is just me Yeah, so what made you go to Lebanon then would you get a phone call from someone? Yeah, I coached a guy online who played for their national rugby team in the world. Oh, so I did his programming He was yeah, he played for the World Cup rugby team. So they invited you over, paid for everything and said, Hey, we want you to talk to you.

Who would you talk to the team? I was focused. Yeah, spoke with the rugby team. And then there was a private powerlifting facility in Beirut that had me out as well. How did the facility look over? It was unbelievable. It was one of the, like, the most well-outfitted.

It was like boutique style powerlifting, Jim. Oh, wow. It was fucking dope, man. It was really, Beirut is a cool city. Is it a tribute out when you go a place like that and you wonder why we're in a Bay Area? Why the fuck do we not have cool places like that here? Yeah, right. It was, they got it right over there. We have so much money. You would think that we would have a facility like that. I've always thought that was strange. I've been to like small towns,

like in fucking Reno, that have gyms that are shit on anything we have over here. Oh yeah, American Iron Gym in Reno. Yeah. The baddest gyms like that. Right. And I get it. The real estate's a lot cheaper, so I can't understand that part. But you would think by now that someone in San Jose would have built like this.

Mark, it doesn't support it. No, they don't want soul cycle here. Yeah, I'm not shit. I love the Peloton bike commercials that are going out. It's like, just go the fuck outside. There's a video. It's right there. You can make believe in environment now.

They're blowing up. Oh, man. Oh, my God. You're literally reselling the wheel. It looks good on it. I wonder if it's going to, you think it's going to, you think it'll be a trend, it'll die eventually? Or do you think there are a smart enough company

that will be able to keep going? No. It's just fashion, man. It comes with waves. This is not the first time this has happened, right? Like they had that one thing where you could like put your actual stationary bike on rollers or some shit. It's like just again, just go the fuck outside. But now I think it'll fall in and out of favor

and then it's just sort of on to the next thing and then in 20 years little cycle back. So after Lebanon then you go, at what point do you and Ben hook up and then you guys do your little tour? How much did you tour before that? Never, never. No, I mean like this trip, this whole trip that you did.

Oh, so I got back from Lebanon. And then I went to Ikel Wright's Tampa. Yeah, so I went, I was in New York before that. I was like a Kenny Santucci's gym in Manhattan. Oh, I'll see, have you ever met that person? First time, I was in Australia. I was I'll see. Have you ever met those person? First time. I was in Australia. I was in Port Douglas, Australia.

And I was like, I don't know, two in the afternoon. I like go on Instagram. And anyone with like, what is the deal with the blue check mark on Instagram? It's like this is a little bit of thing. Oh, it means you're officially you. Yeah. Yeah. You get one?

No. So like Kenny Kenny started following me and then he messaged me right away. And within two hours I was booked to do Strong New York, which is a seminar series that he put on. So I went there first and then Lebanon. So it was New York, it was Bayer in New York, UK, Lebanon, UK, New York, Tampa.

And then me and Ben got together towards the middle of December and December and sort of planned out all of January. So we were in Australia from the 6th of January to the 23rd, 24th and we did Sydney Perth and Melbourne. Now was there a lot of communication between you and him beforehand? Because you guys are, it's different with us, right? We've been working together for a long time, and so when we do seminars or do things, there's a very smooth flow of who talks, who does what, and we're just kind of whatever.

Now, you and Ben have not really done that until this. So did you guys agree, like, hey, you're going to talk about this, I'm going to talk about it, or just go, like, how did you get to sit on that? Yeah, I think, like, the format of it was something that actually triggered the idea that, hey, you're gonna talk about this, I'm gonna tell you that, or just go, like, how did you get to sidle them? Yeah, I think, like, the format of it was something that it actually triggered the idea that, hey, this would be really cool, because, like, we would work out, I mean, I think you connected me with them,

like a year ago, it was really strange. And I went out and did his podcast, and I was in Miami, I took a day up to Tampa, and then I flew out again, like, two weeks later, trained with them for a week. And all of our workouts turned into, like, these PhD level dissertations, because we just come out from like two weeks later, trained with them for a week. And all of our workouts turned into like these PhD level dissertations because we just come at it from two totally different angles, two totally different objectives.

Oh, wow. So was there, was there a little bit of debating at the beginning when you guys first know that this is interesting? Every day of our lives, there's debate. Wow. Yeah, well, because that's the thing, right? Like, that's what we, we're selling a pro, like a thought process, right? And we, like, we're very clear very clear that we are ends of a spectrum.

I respect and understand his outlook. I'm gonna show you his pitfalls and where this goes wrong and who this shouldn't be applied to and whatever. And he does the same thing with me. That's cool, man. Yeah, like, because we'll like tangent. And we think like when we like the dust settles

and we realize there's 45 other people in the room, that like, oh shit, we just had our own little side conversation, well, people paid for it, but people like, no, that was the best part. That's the best part, right? So it's just like, because it's, I don't know,

it's cool to have someone to check you on your shit, right? Like, and I think that's the hard part with like trying to continue to learn is like, if you get to a certain point and whether the authority is warranted or not, if you're the guy at the front of the room, people are listening, right? And like most people are respectful and they just assume because you have the microphone

clip to your shirt that you know what the fuck you're talking about. And I'm like very adamant from the gate, like push. And because that's why I present, it's like I present to learn. Like I will travel the world for one really good question. That makes me think. And traveling with Ben is like, these no holds bar. And it's not like, it's more of just like a child like inquisition rather than like putting someone on trial.

So like we just work out, like I learn more about my like feel their topic of like applied biomechanics in three weeks, just like, because we debrief after every seminar. Well, the discussion and debate is one of the best ways to think, I think in the process, your own thoughts. They didn't really paint the picture for the audience. You have Ben Pekolsky, Pro Body Builder,

but he also has a background in human movement. Of course, you, your background and your power lifter. So you're like a movement guy. He's a feel muscles kind of guy. Hypercher fee versus strength, performance versus aesthetics. And I'm oversimplifying, I know this, but you're also both very, very smart dudes. And so coming from those two sides,

like give me an example of an area of debate where you guys would like debate over something and maybe what turned out, who was right. Yeah, it's all context, right? So I think we're both right, which was like an interesting thing to bring to an audience because a lot of times, there's an industry for this now, right? So I think we're both right, which was like an interesting thing to bring to an audience because a lot of times, there's an industry for this now, right?

And the only way you can sell three letter acronym seminars that if you're fucking, you know, your 90-90 position will cure fucking knee cancer or whatever. But you have to be steadfast in that 90-90. Well, it's the easiest, most widely perpetuated. Leave my 90-90, low, one, man, you're on the show. Or a thogonal bullshit.

But like, no, it's just, it's the most perpetuated thing that people can cling to where it's like, I want to give you, I mean, I start every summer, and it's like, I don't want to give you all the answers, I want to give you the ability to ask better questions, right, and that's the goal. Because it's like, but that's a hard thing to sell because people want what alleviate stress is authority.

They want to know that what you're telling them is like the process. And it's like, no, no, like I will like gift you the process of learning how to learn contextually based off the situation you're in. So I mean, to double back to your question, like, yeah, like you said, I'm, I'm integration. I'm function. I'm, uh, I'm strength, I'm function, I'm strength. He's isolation, he's muscle action, he's hypertrophy, right?

So it's like, the debates would almost be like looking for clarification. Things about resistance profiles versus strength curves. Like that was something we debated. His idea with challenging muscle through a full range, you can't do that in one a full machine, like in one machine, like if there's a bicep, there's a cam on a bicep curl that's going to overload the end range, or it's going to overload the fully shortened, like one of the debates we had was like, okay, he likes to overload the end range first, and then overload the fully shortened second. I think it should be the other way around.

And it's like, neither of us are wrong. There's no- Oh, no, hold on, that's a great discussion. So, and to simplify it for the audience, when you fully extend your arm, applying more resistance at that part of a curl would be the end range. And when you fully contract your arm

or squeeze like you're flexing your bicep, adding a lot more resistance there would be overloading the shortened range. And so you're saying at the beginning of the workout, it's better to start shortened with the overload and then move towards the lengthen. He's saying the opposite. Now why? Why are you guys so different on that? Why, what's your argument? So I mean, to really put a fine point on it, think of like an incline bicep curl and think of like a spider curl. Right. Incline bicep curl is going to be hard at the initiation. Spider curl is going to be hard

at the end. It's like, there's no, like I don't wanna limit my ability to get to the active range where I'm trying to shorten it, right? So it's like, if there's no tension in the beginning of a spider curl and it's all at the end, then I can save that for after the fact. We're ready to do the spider curl first

and then I get through that range and I'm already fatigued, then I can't initiate as well as I already, as well as I could of if the order was reversed and then he says that's the point. Because you're saying that the shortened range, you're gonna be stronger anyway. So start there and save the...

Well, not even that, because the mid range is always gonna be your strongest position. So it's like being able to gain momentum and I think the fundamental difference that we always boil down to is his outlook is purposeful inefficiency, where my outlook from a strength standpoint is always being as efficient as possible. Right?

I don't want distance created in my squat. I want to be as that bar should just be a straight line in my deadlift because any deviation is going to be by definition inefficient, but in muscle building inefficiencies what you're going for. He's a very like less is more kind of thing. Like you do a workout with him and you try to make it harder. Yeah. Like you, you can literally be killing yourself with this guy because he'll go

time distance load. Like that's how he progresses like the magnitude of stimulus. So time distance barely anyone gets to the point where they're not lifting pink dumbbells. They're not fucking increasing load. So I think when we boiled down to the essence of a lot of the debates we had, it was like, okay, you're just trying to be wildly inefficient. So you don't need to load a lot of weight

to create a lot of stimulus. He's trying to make a harder bodybuilders do that. They'll do it, they'll lift a weight and try to make a hundred pounds, feel like 300 pounds through the way the muscles are working. Which when you're building a physique and you're sculpting a body, there's good weight to that. That makes sense because you are trying to work a very specific spot

and you would rather do lighter focus on control and intensity than you would load where you may risk allowing other muscles to kick in to help that movement. Or, you know, that's where the performance guy comes in to help that movement, right? And that's where the performance guy comes in and argues and says, well, I could see you saying, oh, well, you add more load, more load than you're gonna get more CNS adaptation, you're gonna get more overall muscle gain.

That's a lot of fibers that add more gain. And then you'll be able to add more load later, which in turn will build more muscle. So this is where, this is something we debate on the show. I mean, I was the bodybuilder, a static guy, and I can relate more to, you know, this is how I found Ben, and I liked him so much. I was like, he's the first smart bodybuilder guy that,

like, yes, like what he's talking about is the right way to talk about it. And I know you talk more, like, how Justin talks, or like, where he leans as far as training. The efficiency, yeah, and like training as a skill. I'm in the brain. I'm in the brain. Well, so here's the thing. In the middle of how many variables, because this is what we developed and by the time

by the time we got to Melbourne, we sort of had it hashed out where it's like, okay, our biggest differentiator between us was how we stabilize joints, because training is often just looked at as an inverse relationship between volume and intensity, which puts people on a spectrum of endurance and strength. So hypertrophy ranges are higher reps for lower intensity strength ranges are lower. But to me, and this is literally opening chapter,

my book is talking all about where trinity exists and trinity exists in places that are very complicated. A father, son, Holy Spirit, proton, neutron, electron, executive, legislator, judicial, spiritual. Well, hey, but it's just like, I don't think human performance can be summed up as just on a linear spectrum of volume and intensity which is very, very simple.

So I think based what we developed was like, hey, think of like a Vennran with three overlapping inputs, right? So it's like you're gonna have let's call it isolation hypertrophy integration strength coordination stability Now whoever your avatar is on the middle of that middle of those take where you lean towards exactly But I don't think like even like from a hypertrophy standpoint, right? Like I don't know that I don't know how much you guys read into likes going fell to work about like mechanical tension, metabolic stress and what's the third pillar of hypertrophy? There's mechanical damage,

or muscle damage, mechanical tension and metabolic stress, right? So it's like, if you believe in that, then, you know, to your point earlier, like, you know, there's a place for isolation and building body, sure. But if your rate limiter is like mechanical tension or applied for us, it's like we need to get stronger. Right. Right. So when Ben does that, he just affords more stability externally. Right. So where I think always, always, the internal driver is going to be a stronger adaptation.

Right. So if I can stabilize my shoulder to do a bicep curl and and drown out like the peripheral noise to focus just on Isolating that muscle by having like a super stable shoulder blade internally from the serratus or a super stable rotator cuff from training the The function of the rotator cuff rather than the action. I think that's a huge differentiation I think I think what you're saying is now when I would train clients I would focus a lot on what you're saying, as people get stronger and bigger and stronger and bigger, you get to a point where if you're squatting 500 pounds

and you're still wanting to build more massed your legs, it might become wiser to focus on those external factors and increase the fatigue and tension without having to add weight. And so what you end up seeing are the, and look, don't get me wrong, some of the best bodybuilders in the world were some of the strongest,

but they also ended up with a lot of the most injuries, like Doreen Yates and Ronnie Coleman, Branch Warrens, these guys trained with, you know, maximal intensity and weight. And they're fucked and you have people like Dexter Jackson who is still competing in these days and is mid-40s and he works out with weights that you would think somebody not even half the size should be working out with. So the way I think both Kinco exists, I think the bastardization of strength and bodybuilding is

missed. You guys are familiar with this is like how I look at programming and this is like a development I sort of came up to or came to in the past or in my month in Australia with Ben was you guys are familiar with the law of conservation of energy? So, for me, I look at the body is, from three hubs of stability, shoulder hip and spine, and like knowing function of eat one,

and like function is such a shitty term now, like TRX and Bosu ball and shake weight and all that shit. They ruined it, but it fucking means something. Like to really understand the integrative network and how these, what I call hubs of stability meant to work in system, like in network with one another. If you can understand that and write your programming from a standpoint of the law of conservation of energy,

it's like, okay, matter can never be created or destroyed, just transferred. So if I have a moment in my programming, we're like, let's take a hack swap, for example. Like to your point about the 500 pound squat. Yeah, like a 500 pound squat, when I'm squatting the most, my legs are the smallest. So when I have 750 on my back, I'm looking for them at toothpicks, because like the adaptation is not there, the metabolic stress, the muscle damage is just not there.

I've been squatting for reps like in the last month and a half. It's been fucking heavy, but it's not enough to make them grow, right?, when I look at that, it's like, okay, when I'm squatting, if I move to a hax squat, now, how am I able to load like eight plates on hax squat, and I can only load whatever for that volume on a squat? It's like, well, my pelvis is externally stabilized. I'm overriding the functional demand of the internal stability of the hip and pelvis. That moment can't be destroyed. I have to then in isolation somewhere in my program,

make sure I'm still touching the stability of the hip, the stability of the thighs. Where I don't necessarily need to do Copenhagen Planks or single leg RDLs or hip airplanes if I'm squatting, because there's a system of checks and balances when you're loading on a barbell, where it's like, you have to internally stabilize to be able to go to the forest, right?

Your body will down-regulate your building. That's the kind of hard of... Especially when you get annoyed with the 90-90s because you have to already do that already with the squat internally. Well, no, it's just the idea that an arbitrary degree, especially an orthogonal right angle, like when, or like, I mean, if anyone's built like a fucking pop machine, it's me. Like, I look like a fucking rectangle when I walk in a room. I've got that.

But my joints don't articulate in 90 degrees. Like, the convexity of my, or the curvature of my rib cage allows for my, like, my neutral shoulder position looks relatively flex to most people. Like, the scaption position. It's like, when people do rotator cuff work, they're cranked back here because they like the idea of tight angles. It's like, yeah, if you're designing, they're cranked back here because they like the idea of tight angles. It's like, yeah, if you're designing a fucking studio, sure. But if you're trying to design a body like that.

That's why I came up with a new, a new movement, it's the 86 and 93. Boom. Crosstrap. That's the difference. Get those angles cranked. Security. By obscure.

I love it. So what is something that Ben has taught you? Let's start with that because you guys are, what I like most about the two of you, and I'll just talk to you, what I like about you, is that you're open to discussion, you're open to debate. I think you thrive off of it, and this is the mark of an intelligent,

confident individual. Sometimes you get people who have their positions. When you get into discussions and debates, they just get irritated, mad, and they avoid it, probably because they know they're either gonna be exposed or they're just afraid to be wrong. You don't come across that way, you don't come across as someone who's afraid to be wrong,

neither does Ben. So I'm sure you guys learned from each other. I'm sure there's positions that you may have changed now as a result of hanging out with the guy for as long as you have. What are some of those things? I know how to buy the most expensive olive oil in the ground.

Who's talking now? I know how to scare the shit out of someone by meditating on the kitchen floor at four in the morning. It's just, no, but like it all serious. I've learned more in the last, like in the three weeks we spent together Australia than I did in four years at grad school. And it's like, because we both have such a base confidence

that he's a strong motherfucker. Yeah. Oh, the disease. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, the disease. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He turns up. No one can help. I remember when we first met and I got that sense right away from him that he takes a lot of pride in being one of the hardest working bodybuilders ever to hit stage. And even the other day, there's a guy I really admire that's coming up. His name is Jordan Peters. He's like a new age Doryan Yates and I've been following him for a while.

And even he said the other day, like who's the person that when you train with, it was like an Instagram Q&A, who was the person that when you trained with? It was like an Instagram Q&A, who was the hardest training partner you've ever had and he's like hands down, Pekolsky. Like, and like, it's fucking, but that's what validates him to me. Like, there's such an industry for meditation and breathing and like, whim off and like,

we're the fuck, like sure, whatever. But like, I just, I don't, I don't understand that as like an endeavor. Like, cool, you can can lay in an ice bath. Can you squat 750? No, I don't resonate at that wavelength, but he goes, hey, bitch, yeah, 750 for a triple, it's like, okay.

I'm gonna get all of a sneak in. Exactly, so it's meditates. Yeah, so, but like, and that maybe is like where, the muscle physiology stuff, I think, I put a spin on it that he is like where, you know, the muscle physiology stuff, I think, I put a spin on it that he doesn't necessarily, like I look at it through a lens that he doesn't look at it through and the same goes vice versa,

but I don't think it's like, when we talk about muscle physiology and stuff like that and apply biomechanics, it's like two magicians doing tricks on one another, it's like, oh, I know how you pull that rabid out of the hat. I see that, yeah, like here's a coin behind you here. There you go, oh, I know how you pull that rabbit out of the hat. I see that. Yeah, like, here's a coin behind you. You're like, you know what I mean? So it's, but like, it's the stuff outside that I really learn from them.

Like, how he conducts himself. Like, how he, like, I travel for three weeks and I was just chilling, like, all by myself do whatever the fuck I want, when I want. Like, we live together. And that was kind of by design to keep me well-behaved. So, but to be able to manage the scale of the enterprise that he manages and his investments

and his business partners and managing personalities of his staff and all that and still keeping a shit together. There's people who are, there are people who are at the controls and then there are people who are in control, big bannies in, flocking control. And just, I mean, things like breathing, which it seemed, and that was when we get in on some

of these tangent, like not arguments, but discussions, like, as I look at breathing from like a function standpoint, right, like I look at inhalation and exhalation as opposed to muscle groups and keeping in balance is like a quad and a hamstring, right, like people don't understand, you know, your accessory muscle is a forced inhalation, your accessory muscle is a forced expiration, right?

Like what's the difference between the lower fiber of the serratus, the upper fiber of the serratus, or your scalines and the roll, your diaphragm plays? So I'm looking at it through like a performance lens, and then he's like, he'll go a layer deeper, like, all right, let's talk autonomic nervous system. Right? And it's like, that's just like,

I literally like, my, my, my hair, my arm standing up, right now, just talking about, who's such a, like a profound thing, like, oh, breathe, huh? That's like, I just like, I literally like, my fuck the hair, I'm standing up right now, just talking about who's such a, like a profound thing. Like, oh, breathe, huh, that's like, I'm stressed out of my face, like, all the day, every day, and just like, little practices, like that, like there's some stuff, like the $7 sea salt and the $30 olive oil,

where I'm like, I'm still gonna microwave my food, hobby, I'm really fucking hungry. I don't care, like if this kills me, then I deserve to go. But again, I would have zero buy-in on some of the stuff that he's introduced me to if it was literally anyone else. Because there's such a market of like, honestly, like podcasting plusses that just talk about this nonsense

because that's what people want to hear rather than fucking working hard. Well, there's an order of operation, right? Yeah, there really is. I mean, even like I remember when I put also you and green filled together Who I think couldn't be further opposites from personalities and I was excited about that because one I know both of you really well And if there was anybody who is going to do all this weird shit He's the guy that I would want to do it. He's the guy who I don't want to hear it from the like you said the guy who's in the podcast

that I would wanna do it. He's the guy who, I don't wanna hear it from the, like you said, the guy who's in the podcast, fucking doesn't squat, doesn't do work, doesn't fucking track anything. And then he's talking about how important blue blockers are, how important meditation is, and it's like, come on, bro, like there's so many other things in life that you could be applying to your life

that will have so much more carryover in this mission that you're trying to accomplish. So I feel like Ben checks a lot of those basic boxes and then he goes to the next level and that's the guy I wanna hear do it. Yeah, I think there's something to be said, man. I spent a lot of time chasing people who are passionate and some way this compliments each other,

but I want people who are fucking original now. Like that's what when I sat down with Greenfield, I was just like, this guy is a fucking space kid. He was doing this weird smiegal from Lord of the Rings sitting on the chair. That's how he gets that in the industry with a rock. What the fuck, I'm ready to just fucking, if he pounces at me, I'm gonna break his fucking jaw.

He's eating that stuff in the mouth. But at least he's fucking original, man. Especially my field, if you wanna call it, it's intellectual property. Yeah, but at least he's fucking original man, like especially like my Field if you want to call it like it's intellectual property, right? So like the stuff I come up with like the book I wrote that was it's not self-evident the conclusions I've gotten to so like when I see people like Reiterating and who the fuck am I right with like I'm not to be an egotist about it But like when I see it, it's like know, like you were front row in my fucking seminar with a no pad.

Like this is not your idea. Like you are one layer deep on this. So it's just like to find people who are in their own pursuit of just being original and bends a fucking original. Cause like, this, like you talked about, like you know, like oh, red light for what inflammation, dude, from smoking fucking AOD for four four days like you're not a shaman

You're a drug addict like get the fuck out of here Dude that's what we're seeing you haven't done the agahoska yet then no idea of like formal wascus seems right But I don't want to change man either do I Popular now for me. Yeah, I don't want anything It's not even not like I just everyone I talked to was like I don't like change your life. I'm good I not like, I just, everyone I talk to is like, God, I'll change your life. I'm good. I'm just like, this is best life ever kind of shit. Like, why would I want to change?

What's going on? My third grade report card reads exact, like I've been a 65 year old man since I was like seven years old. It's just like, I don't want to change. Like I don't want to be some, like, I want to be able to respect like getting into more like my info practice and things like that. But I want to do it on my own time.

Yeah, the right attitude. I think it's funny when you look at all the different spiritual practices, you get the people within them whose ego develops so large that they believe that their spiritual practice has all the answers. This has all the answers. There's nothing to learn from the other practices. And that's a very complex field. When you look at the strength sports and fitness, way more simple, way more basic, and yet just as polarized, just as egotistical, like I'm a power lifter, I know all the answers, I'm a bodybuilder, I have all the answers, I work with kettlebells, we have all the answers. But when you sit down and you're fucking cool,

and you go in to try to learn to see what you can learn from these other people Um, it's incredible. So you sit down with Pekolsky and you guys end up Becoming better version. It doesn't completely It's not like you're gonna become a bodybuilder all of a sudden or he's gonna completely come to your side But you're gonna both grow and learn quite a bit. It's like Bruce Lee It's like how Bruce Lee was with martial arts You know, he's the first mixed martial artist. And now we see what that's produced in, in, you know, like the UFC, for example.

Now, have you, have you seen things that he's changed? Because there are things you guys see don't see at, you've obviously picked up some things from him. I can imagine he's had to have picked up some things from you. What are some of the things that you think you've influenced in his life? He eats more when I'm around. It's not just like I fucking had a cabbage.

Like he's just a giant rabbit when I'm not around idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot.

I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot.

I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I'm a real idiot. I FYM, whatever you fucking want to call it. But it's like, he's proof of a different concept, right? Like, energy in, nothing. Energy out, we train, like, it's fucking,

it's to the death, right? We had a kid, like, I was about to call the ambulance in Melbourne, like, I, yeah, no, like, we train with this kid. God bless, so he was like, second runner up at the amateur Olympia. He came out to our seminar at Dordes. He won a piece.

Oh, dude, it was like one set. It was literally one set of leg press. The Benny just took him past the line. Where it's like, he's just a fucking liar. Like, I don't even listen to him now. He's like, okay, five more apps. I'm like, all right, 30 more apps. Because he's just like, you just keep watching your own names.

That's it, right? Like, yeah, 100%. But like, he's just trying to get the most out of you. So like, I've trained with him, and I'm gonna train with a lot of bodybuilders and power lifters, and like I can say, on equivocally, that he'll go further past the fucking needle. Like, he's deranged.

Like, I don't wanna know what's in the dark corners of the mind that he has to fucking go to to get there. Cause I know where I gotta go, and it's like, like, good thing I'm sweating so much. Cause like it just looks like I'm wiping away sweat and not fucking tears by the end of it. But it's just like, we had this one kid literally.

He was like, his nose started to bleed and he was thrown up everywhere. And like, I feel one set. And he was like, it's crazy. But yeah, so like his energy output is through the roof. And Ben is goes in there cause like does this weird sort of like,

you know, mantra, centering, he closes his eyes and I was like, oh man, the fuck, I'm just gonna walk away. Wait till you start, because he just, he takes 20 seconds before every set and like does some like breathing stuff and he closes his eyes, but it's almost like, it's one of my, it's a weird,

it's the thing that I think about sometimes when I'm training and it's just like, this childhood infantile derangement I have, but like, remember the Ed Norton incredible Hulk, right? But like, so they chase him through, like he's trying to control his breath and stay. Right, right. And they chase him through that factory

and then all of a sudden they just see the eye go green. Like when he comes out of that fucking trance state, I swear it's fucking eyes go green. And it's like, but no, he's like, oh yeah, cause this is like, oh my god, yo bro, like you got 20 seconds here. Like I'm getting cold. Come on man. And then like he just like, like comes out of whatever part of his fucking so conscious.

He just went into and you're like, oh boy, just throwing four cliffs across the room and shit. Like some of the darkness. Yeah, but it's fucking like, because if you do that and then just go like, do yoga or some shit like fucking waste time. That is you fucking a yoga without the whole breathing thing. I don't need the whole preamble. Just fucking do the downward dog, get the fuck out of here.

But like to do that and then be like, okay, do just went like nine plates on a hackswatt for reps. And we got like pro bodybuilders over here doing half of that. And he's like got this barefoot giant motherfucker like. And no, it's just crazy to me to see like, that was the biggest thing is when he's around, he's probably put on in January, he probably put on like 10 pounds.

Because he's eating more food. I'm like, I'll like force it to him. I'm like a Jewish mother, like, he's wasting away to nothing. Just like, here, have some beef with your cabbage, at least eat that. Have a carbohydrate for once in your fucking life. But yeah, I think his change is on me

much more profound than my changes on him. When you guys work out together, are they bodybuilding style workouts? Are they more just who leads? Do you guys take turns leading workouts? No, I mean, no, who the fuck am I, man? I am the weakest offseason powerlifter ever. Like, I have no aspirations to kill myself,

especially on the road. Like bodybuilding style trainings a little bit more conducive to, you know, sleeping on airplanes and airbnb's and stuff like that. That actually makes a lot of sense. It's a good question because with all this travel, that's a lot of stress on the body, all the changing time schedules and all that. Yeah.

So, and the opportunity though too, right? Like, you know, he didn't grow up watching me on YouTube, right? So it's just like, like, to get a chance to learn from someone. Yeah, like let him lead. Yeah, because when I train more often than not, like I'm an authority if I train with someone, like I'm gonna take the wheel. Here's how, here's the format of the workout.

If you have questions, write it down in a piece of paper, we'll get to it after that kind of thing. If it's ever anybody who I even think I can learn from, I like to let them drive. But if it's someone it's like, I know I'm I can learn from, I like to let them drive. But if it's someone, it's like, I know I'm not gonna learn it. I'm driving, you know what I'm saying? It's that simple. Because I mean, we're both outcome based

or he was very outcome based in his career. If someone's just kind of a casual thing, let me take this. And that's a lot of, if I do train with someone around here, if it's not my training partner's at boss, It's me sort of being instructional and taking on the role So just to be like here go man take the keys just just drive this bitch into the fucking concrete going 120 So it's just like to me. I still pinch myself like I'd wake up and just be like holy fuck like I literally remember growing up Like two hours down the road from this guy

Well, we have a picture from the, I'll show you after. We have a picture like when I went to the Olympia just as a fan when I first moved to California. Of me and like, I got the X-bow, like flexing as high as I was about to pass out. I was like, go take the fucking photo. I can't flex my bicep at this photo anymore. And now like four years later,

we're like two in the world. That's so cool, man. Can you remember the craziest lift that you guys have had? Like what session, that one that like, oh my god. There were a couple like legs usually, just because he still got like these fucking Clydesdale wheels. I think one at MI 40 rings a, because like he likes to train really early.

And MI 40 like that's his home, right? So he can control the music before he even gets in. So it's like 6am, there's, fuck no, it's really not. 5am, it was one of the first times I trained with him. And I'm just still in awe. And we walk into the gym. It's the first time I saw him, I'm 40. And he's got the Russian war music training. We're playing in the background,

and there's only certain lights that are on. I was like, I could kill someone right now There's no doubted by mine. I get a hundred percent like this is like some weird brave heart shit Like I know that person comes out of the core of pated face. I'd be so I would follow him into battle man like that one was just like that was pretty intense because that was just me being like a 16 year old kid with a M.D. subscription just going like Because he has some of the covers on the wall like I have every one of those magazines That's a weird thing to say with one of your friends. So yeah, it's really it's was really surreal. That's so cool

Dude, that's I'm so glad you guys connected you made it. I mean, I knew you would I mean, I've got a chance to get to know him really well for quite some time and you I knew you guys would Definitely was Australia the place you spent the most time in? So far, yeah. So fun. We're at a huge fitness culture. I mean, everybody who comes back from there keeps telling us we need to go there

and do seminars or meet people. You do. You guys just need to go everywhere. Like, literally everywhere. I go, I was training up at SF Fitness in Piedmont yesterday. And there was a guy there's like, hey, are you Jordan? And I was like, yeah, like it's so weird for me to be like, I'm just some jackass in a gym man.

Like I'm not worthy of any commendation. Like, oh, like I heard you on Mind Pump. If I had a fucking dollar for every time I said, I heard you on Mind Pump. But like, back in Windsor, in fucking Lebanon. Like, I do hand to God. That's right. It's the craziest thing.

Like, I'm not gonna, oh, maybe I'll give you context afterwards, but like, yeah, it's like the amount of reach you guys have everywhere is fucking crazy. But Australia especially is like, they're so, I don't know, if a humble is a word,

but they hold what comes out in North America and very high regard, whether it's just a fight or not. We're like in the States, it's a fucking nightmare. You can't, everyone thinks they know everything. Like, you can't sell, you couldn't sell what we sold

at the level and magnitude that we sold it at on the notice that we put it together in four weeks. And we sold out pretty much three dates. You sold out every time, huh? Yeah, I think Perth was like a little scarce because we were back and forth on the details, but like Sidney and Melbourne were pretty much jammed. And these are specific seminars that you put together,

like, okay, we're gonna talk about this particular thing and you put out what you're gonna talk about in the sign up, or is it more like, hey, show up, listen to Jordan Shallow, Ben Pekolsky. No, it's pretty well laid out on the website. So the first day is all lecture-based, and that's open to a broader audience. It's a lower ticket price.

And then that was upwards of like 60, 70 people capacity. And then the next two days are limited access like training camp style where it's like, okay, we're gonna go over like the fundamentals of back or chest and back. I'll talk kind of about the powerlifting movements. Or no, sorry, squat deadlift for first and then the beginning of the next day was bench press

and then we would go like leg hypertrophy in the afternoon and then shoulders arms in the afternoon. Are you getting a lot of fitness enthusiasts? Are you getting a lot of fitness professionals and people who have backgrounds and work in the field? Yes, more so the latter and that's where I'm really focusing my career on now is like, I don't want to bring this to the end user. I want to teach people how to teach. I want to have a, you know, you go right. I think you're picking the right. Of course.

Exactly what you're making. That's what you're making for. You've got to have, I mean, fuck, I have to fucking rewind and listen to stuff that you say over again. I mean, I have to go back. Well, you don't have to do every fucking time you come on the show. It's like, I spend a whole another two hours explaining how to shit that you said on our show. People be DMing me after I was like, man, he said something about this. It sounded really important.

What did he mean by this? And I gotta go back and put it layman's turns for everybody. So, I mean, I really enjoy like base level competency, like teaching people who have that rose at a stone ability. Like, I just go straight like, like, rain man on it, because like, I just every, like, I wake up in the middle of the night, I just have a white board next to my bed.

And I just like, this is all I think about. Like it's not okay. But I struggle and I know my weakness is actually bringing it to the end user. But a lot of what I talk about comes from, it comes from my, maybe not ignorance from a malicious standpoint, but it comes from a perpetuation of misinformation.

Whether it's an inability to transfer that to the end user and explain it properly, but I think more so just from a perpetuation of misinformation, whether it's an inability to transfer that to the end user and explain it properly, but I think more so just from a fundamental conceptual standpoint, everyone's paradigm is shifted. We're looking in the wrong direction for a lot of the stuff I talk about, which is the difference between strength and stability and holding performance to a highest virtue

rather than pain and things like that. So I think what I wanna see is, I don't wanna have to be in practice anymore. Like it's a weird profession where like everyone you deal with every day is in pain. And I've been able to square myself kind of more in the performance aspect now. So I'll see people who aren't in pain,

but they want to, you know, they want to get like, those marginal improvements past the level of diminishing returns. So it's a little bit better now, but for the beginning of my career, it was all pain. It's fucking draining. Plus, it's, for me honest, it's way more stimulating to teach people who are going to be teaching. It's more stimulating for some more challenging.

You can also impact a lot more people that way too. And that's the goal, man. Because I think, again, whether it's ignorance or whether it's just malicious intent of making money, what's been going out there, I just see it so many times. I've been told, my PT or my personal trainer said I had weak glutes, weak core, weak rotator cuff, and that's what spiraled into my framework for my book, which is going to be, or the three hubs of stability in your body. It's in the language, man, you don't have a weak core, you have an unstable core.

You don't have a weak rotator cuff, you have an unstable shoulder. You don't have weak glutes, you have unstable hips. This is the difference, because it's in people know how to get strong, all your weak biceps, okay, we'll train muscle action. It's flex, flex, flex, fly, whatever. It's like that doesn't work with muscles that work around to helical axis. Right? The rotator cuff works around a y-axis.

Why does it need to exert force? It needs to resist work. Connecting to it is one thing, putting the work into then get, build strength is another. Yeah, so it's like, you know, like bridging the gap from research doesn't mean like yellow thera band to blue thera band, like, no, no, it means strength

to stability, it's like being physically literate in the adaptation that you're gonna make, but holding even like, even the most rooted rooted like weekend warrior basic novice to the highest virtue and setting them on that path. Whether they get there, they want to be like, you know, the strongest guy in the world, the fastest girl, whatever, that's fine. But it's like, don't make me have to like harsh reroute and rewire them because you set them down this, this false path from the gate, because all you were doing was chasing pain. Pain is easy.

Pain has a natural history. Performance doesn't have a natural history. Like if you wake up after a flight in your neck kind of hurts, just give it 12 days, natural history, you'll be fine. Go see a chiro, go see a PT, go see massage therapists, you'll be good in like four. But if you suck at lifting, 12 days later, you're still going to suck at lifting. Like you're not necessarily going to get stronger.

You're not necessarily going to execute with better techniques. So it's like setting the, setting the operative goal, setting the virtue to performance, regardless of pain, because you'll get to, if you get to performance, you will not be in pain. If you do it the right way, yeah, and I think this, the paradigm is let a lot of people astray where it's like, okay, if I'm a therapist, I'm a trainer, what I'm this the paradigm is let a lot of people astray where it's like okay if I'm a therapist I'm fine a trainer what I'm a Myo whatever the fuck it's like I just want to get people that doesn't benefit their business model quite as much exactly Right, it's like and that's my thing is like I just want to teach people out of fish

Yeah, I'm not giving them fish. Yeah, the way the way we look at it is you have people who Really understand how things work really understand how to apply certain things. They know the information, they have the knowledge, and then you have this disconnect between that and being able to effectively communicate it, being able to get people to really believe and understand it, and that's what we try to do is we try to bridge

that gap a little bit. I mean, you definitely know what you're talking about, and you're communicating to people to be able to teach to other people, but if those people can't teach it to other people, this is what you learn working with just everyday people. I know what to do to get you to lose weight, but if I can't get you to understand, if I can't communicate it in a way that makes you understand how to change your behaviors and do it in a way that's going to give you long-term success, doesn't matter, makes no difference. There's an artfulness to that.

I think so. How do you, I mean, cause you obviously are extremely fascinating about the human body and how it moves and functions. Are you diving into how the mind plays a role in that? In other words, how you think and how you feel about how you move? Are you looking to that all,

are you more just on the mechanics or everything? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of my ability to extrapolate past like my core, like my fundamental, not beliefs, because I think belief opens up the conversation for interpretation, like, is understanding that, okay, as I begin to push my boundaries and realize how multifactorial it is,

maybe I don't understand what's kind of at the peripheral of my understanding or like, don't understand what's the peripheral of my understanding. What lies at the jurisdiction of my knowledge or my skill set, it's like, it would be pretty egotistical and naive to think that there's not a contributing factor coming elsewhere. So it's even at, I don't wanna say my level,

but to my depth and understanding, is the hardest part is knowing what you don't know, right? But connecting yourself with people who do know, right? Like, okay, you need to go see a neuro or you need to go see a nutritionist. So like, beginning to familiarize myself because I've gone deep and not necessarily wide, but in going deep

I've learned strategies on how to learn. So it's like I now have. That's a good point. So yeah, just having a network of people who have gone to the depths in their subject matter. What's that graph called where it's like you think you're a group. There you go. Yeah, it's very true.

It's super true. But it's interesting because we just talked about this recently about, I was reading this whole article in the placebo effect, and I find it so fascinating, you know, they do studies with people where they'll give them fake surgeries, have you read these studies? They don't even do anything, they just cut the leg open and sew it back up and the person has the same,

like pain relief as the people who did have the surgery. Yeah, very strange. And but like, perception is something that's very open to interpretation, right? Like, I think- It's all literally. Yeah, so I just think there's different ways to access that, like, that down regulation is a lock.

And there's so many different keys that can turn that lock, right? So whether it's function, whether it's fuck heat, whether it's biochemical, like, there's so many things that can, if pain is the goal, that's, and that's again, that's why I hold it as, not, yeah, no, it's easy. It's easy if you know where to look for it,

how to down-regulate that perception, because that's all it is. My uncle, if he eats red meat, his perception when he fucking sleep walks, the piece of red meat, he's in his fucking chair, he asleep behind the wheel, but he's driving. So that's a red meat desk to him? Yeah, yeah, if he eats like Uncle Brian,

like you gotta hide the keys, he's gotta fucking, he's gotta fucking ribeye, he's like going on the 401, but he's asleep. Like, yeah, but it's like, okay, how fucking, like whatever amino acid triggers whatever, there's a whole perceptual cascade that happened from one thing, right? Like it's it'd be naive to think that it's going to be as simple or as basic. Like we

shouldn't trust our perceptions. It's the deeper you go, the more you realize there's way more out there, you know what I'm saying? Because there's there's pain and then there's your experience of pain. There's movement and there's your experience of movement and you can't separate them. It's all it's all one. You can't separate them. So I listened to really good podcast with Russell Brand like years ago and he made it and I I used it in my seminar and it's like it's on my nerves sometimes. Sometimes he says shit. I'm like, yeah, but he made this point about like spirituality where it was like, he's like, my dog doesn't know the internet exists.

And I was like, oh, fuck. It's about like, it was just, you just smoke weed before the door. But it was just like, it's like, it's about having the instruments to perceive the information, right? To gather the information.

So understanding that I am a very blunt instrument. So I might not have the capacities to fully understand how something works, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. That's very self-aware and even think like that. And I just think if you're outcome-based, right? Because you talked earlier in meditations become such a popular thing and I hate to double back,

but like, I look at like spirituality and religion as to almost like polarities, right? Like, I know people who are very spiritual, but when stepped foot in a church, right? But it's like, and they argue, it's like, oh no, like you got to show up on Sunday, community, whatever, and then it's like, nah, like, homie, I'm gonna do me.

It's like if you're about the outcome, it shouldn't really matter, like, how it is you find that, right? Because like, people get on me, like, oh bro, like you should really meditate. I was like, I'm two hours in my own fucking head in the gym. Like that is better to end of it. It's the same outcome at the end of it. Why do I need to sit cross leg and fucking sink whom by on that shit? Religion is the practice I think of spirituality. And you know if you really want to know what people you really want to know what people, you really want to know what people believe, don't listen to what they say they believe.

Watch how they act. Lots of actions, yeah. That's the truth. It's how people act. Like I could sit here and talk about how much I believe and in good nutrition all day long, and then you watch me eat and you know that's bullshit. I could talk all about how I want to save the environment.

I think we shouldn't, you know, be burning fossil fuels, but I'm driving a, you know, a hummer or I own a yacht and all these other things like a lot of celebrities do. It's all about your actions and that's really what shows what you believe, in my opinion. Yeah, I totally agree. It's just like the indoctrination of these new ideas, like this meditation thing is like,

oh, everyone's got to meditate. No, man. Second, everyone has to do something. You've longed me. No, no, no, got to meditate. I think the second everyone has to do something, you've lost me. No, no, no, no. And you're seeing the rise of this psychedelic culture now where my favorite quote is Carl Jung where he says, beware of unearned wisdom.

So you've got all these, it's like imagine putting a 12 year old skinny kid instantly in your body. Is he gonna have your wisdom of how to lift? Yeah, he's a big strong guy all of a sudden, but is he gonna be big and strong on the gym? Well, I love how you use that example, right? It's about fanning, it's cognitive enhancement, right? There's no doubt on that.

Like, I've played around in the last six months. We'll talk, off air, but I don't like perpetuating it over podcasts, but I've fucked me and I didn't like getting undergarged, I took out her all and I've taken some crazier shit since then, but it's about like, she's gonna drink coffee once. Yeah, right. But it's like, I look at it like PED's, right?

Like, you know, it's about a bay. Like I know kids who didn't touch gear until they were like 260 with abs. You look the fuck out. Like you throw 10 mils of trin at this kid, boah, we's blowing up. Where it's like, okay, you've built a base in your body to fan a flame,

and you only take a little bit of gear for that enhancement to happen. It's the same thing mentally, man. Like if you haven't read and bolstered your skill set and like had experience and traveled and like and been able to interpret interpret different situations and surrounded yourself with different ideas

and thought process have been open and learn, grown from a mental standpoint. It's like you're fanning a really low flame. Think about, literally think about this for a second. Think about it. If you could take a 12 year old 100 pound kid and snap your fingers and all of a sudden put him in your body and put him in the gym,

what do you think we would do to himself in less than 30 minutes? Injure the fuck out of himself. Do something absolutely terrible, completely lacking the wisdom that it took to get you to this particular point, even though it's the same end or whatever. It's that uner-n-wisdom, beware of it. I think that applies to everything. But I do think what you're doing is extremely important because,

like I brought up those placebo effect studies, when they do the fake surgery, the placebo effect is far more powerful because people have something tangible to kind of believe. I think that's the other reason why it's so effective to understand these things from a Western standpoint, understand biomechanics, understand movement, understand what I'm doing, it's more likely to also improve the way you perceive and experience it as well. And I think that speaks to like educating the end user, right? Like you don't need to cut that guy.

You don't need to cut him at all. You need to basically tell him like without telling him that it's in his own head. Because if that's the thing like he has to get to that point. Yeah, and but a lot of people it takes. So it's about the severity of the intervention, right? Like have you seen the bioav the thing, like, if you give... He has to get to that point and send that. But a lot of people, it takes... So it's about the severity of the intervention, right? Like, have you seen the bioavailability of, like, I think it's ibuprofen, where it's like, they take the same bioavailability, but they scale how they give the intervention. It's like, one is, there's a difference between reported benefit between a tab and a capsule.

And then there's a difference between a liquid and an injection. So like the injection people think it's like, it's the same fucking thing. At the cellular level, the exact same thing's happening at the same dose, it's scaled, relative, body weight, everything. But because you're getting the fucking shot in the arm, you're like, oh shit, this is the real deal. Yeah.

And then, but the person getting like, oh, I just get like a little pill, I can take like a hundred of these a day with what's this one gonna be different. So it. So that's the same reason why Advil literally came out with liquid caps. Really? Yeah, they came out, they have the tablet and you have the, oh, it's in liquid form, gets to your suits, the same fucking thing. Yeah, it's the same. That's the kind of option. Yeah. It's because consumers think it's more effective. They buy it and they sell it. You know what, it was funny. I did, I was on

truck collective and with Doug and Anders in New York. And Doug brought up the funniest thing where it was like the most impactful sales line of all time was if you have an erection lasting longer than four hours, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like I'm not calling a doctor, I'm calling the wife. It's like, it's like selling us a, it's like selling a muscle builder. Like, look, you know, this is a very effective muscle. Listen, if you build more than 10 pounds in two days, stop taking the similiate, you will sell all your

pillow. Do you guys ever remember nano vapor, that muscle tech? Do you remember what was on the fucking container, where it's like if you left the, they told you to not leave the container open, so like, because all the drugs are coming out, but like you better fucking believe that that container was closed in 10 seconds flat

when I was like 14 years old. Just like quick, are you ready, man? It was like, it was like Mal Gibson pulling Donald Glover off the toilet in like that lethal weapon movie. It's like, hey, we're going like on three, like one, two, then three, like you got the scoop, right? Like, right, you're ready. Lithuanian reference.

Right there, bro. Oh, yeah, man. Oh my God. That is such a good one. That is a thrill. Did you, were you, you're a lot younger than I, but I think when you were younger, was a fedra still in the market, were you taking a fedra pre-workout?

I've done that. Oh crazy. Dude, I was in Lebanon, fuck. Sitting around like the locker room before we were training. Like I knew a couple of guys, I didn't know all of them. And it's like, drugs and legal. Like we literally went into a pharmacy at 12.30 at night, just because I didn't believe them and they bought went into a pharmacy at 12, 30 at night, just because I didn't believe them

and they bought tests over the counter at 12, 30 at night. Wow. And I was like, holy fuck, this is insane. So I'm sitting around the water. So it's fully legal to buy anabolic's over there. Oh wow. But it's illegal to probably drink alcohol and assuming. No, Lebanon is, Lebanon's cool.

Okay. Lebanon's like, it's Middle East light, man. Okay, I'm telling you. It's a party town. But literally you are sitting in this gym and whatever, yeah, I've been around needles before. So I kind of know the go of pre-workouts. Like, all right, someone's around sling, someone's around growth, whatever.

And I know the usual sites that these things are going. So it's a party, right? And some guy grabs a fucking knee wrap and then turn a kids his arm. And I was like, oh, what you doing? What you doing, Ray Charles? Like, what the fuck? Fucking goes IV with it.

Whoa, a veteran, mainline. I'm like, dude, you're not gonna be okay for a long time. It was like, it was like reccomend for a dream or like one of those Jason Statham like crack movies. You could just see the eyes. That's basically speed They basically it's being credible. It was just like you watch him was like his eyes are sweating his literal eyeballs are sweaty And it's just like yeah, what else? No, we deal just like pre-work out a fedron

Straight a lot of shit. I never see that was yeah, like I've been around the block But that one was like okay, that's like I got it's was yeah, like I've been around the block, but that one was like, okay, that's like, I got, it's 911 here, right? That's the number in Lebanon, all right. Just, I got 911, you let me know when you want me to pull the trigger. Yeah, it was crazy. Are they jacked or what? No.

No. There's a weird thing, it's like guys, you're on a crazy sheet, what are you doing? Fizer, like fizer test over the camera. It's no different than over here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? You walk in the, I tell people this all the time,

you, you would not believe how many people in your average 24-hour fitness or goals is on gear. Oh, you know, if you don't train right, you don't got good diet. And of course, if you got shitty genetics, I think I mean, you, you, I had a guy who's, I bring him up all the time, poor guy, but he's torn for me.

And this guy was on like two, three grams a year every week and he looked like a fucking normal dude. It was great, he lost his hair. That's what happened. He got all the side effects, built men in the muscle. Brutal. It was really like, I go into like American barbell and Campbell. And I ain't just sit there. It's like, you fucked a golden snitch.

Let me do it. Like him, him, him, him, you sweetheart, you come here. You're definitely on drugs. Like, that's the easiest thing. Like, it is. He knows it, it's like a mile away. No, no, no, him, you sweetheart, you come here, you're definitely on drugs, like, that's the easiest thing, like, it is. You know it, it's like a mile away. No, no, there's a lot of people, and a lot of people just don't do it right, man.

You know, before we got on air, we were talking to this before Sally even got there, and I was asking you some personal questions and you said that you hadn't talked about it on air, but you said you'd be open to talking about it there. And I wanted you to share your first homosexual experience that you had. Well, the good thing, it was Sal didn't have to be there

because Sal was there. No, what's... I'm the giver. So what we were talking about is you're in the middle of a major life changing moment for yourself. And you seem to be keeping yourself composed and handling it. And I would like to talk a little bit about it.

And mainly because not to put you on front street, but because I think you are a very self-aware person. And I think there's obviously some things that you've probably learned about yourself from this whole situation and something that probably somebody who's listening can learn from you. Maybe some mistakes that you made or things that you would done differently.

Maybe you can touch a little bit on what you're going through and how that's been. Yeah, so I mean, I'm out of the Bay Area in two weeks. Gone. Packing up, just life I had, not a thing anymore. You gotta have something worth, like you gotta have something pulling you out, right? You gotta have, I think a lot of people,

they find comfort and complacency and they get scared to sort of step out and pursue things. So whether that's like a relationship or whether that's a job or something like that. So yeah, I sort of made, having an ability to make decisions devoid of emotion, I think is something that I've been working on the last couple of years.

And like, that's a skill set that regardless of, like, emoting about a problem is not fixing a problem. So I think you can cry and you can do all that, which is fine. There's a place, there's a time and a place for that, but it doesn't actually solve issues. So just kind of something I've adapted in being, I don't even like the word entrepreneur anymore because I think that has a negative connotation. But in having to make business decisions and havingation. But in like having to make business decisions and having to make life decisions,

having to make relationship decisions, being the more pertinent one that we're sort of touching on now, it's like being able to look past the discomfort and like delayed gratification and like being able to make decisions devoid of emotion. Like, yeah, it's been a really shitty, in some ways a really shitty six months, like sleeping on the fucking floor.

There was no Instagram post on that. There was no fucking high res video that my guy cut up of me fucking dry heaving from fatigue because I was sleeping on fucking linoleum for the better part of a month. Right. So it's something too that I don't, I don't put out there because I feel like

there's even a marketplace now for like bargaining psychosis. You know what I mean? There was mental health a couple months ago. And like the irony of like going through Instagram stories, it's like, well, you have a personality disorder. You're on like, you're on this drug, this drug, and this drug for your anxiety. But your, your means of dealing with it is the exact same thing that's giving you all this anxiety

like going on social media. So I don't talk about the personal life often when it comes to that, but I think putting a spin of like responsibility, like it's on you, have something that's like worth pursuing, and like if it's worth pursuing, if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing, in my opinion. Like being passionate about it,

but I think people can flate, compassion and emotion. Like, being disciplined to do what's necessary, right? Like, think about training, right? Well, I feel like, well, I'll do what it takes. Like, will you take a week off? Will you take a week off training? You're like, no, no, no, no, no.

Like, oh, then the hashtag no days off. It's like, you're not in it. You're not, you're, you think you're passionate, but you're just emoting about something. Like, there's just, you're not, in a lot of ways, successful people in my opinion are dispassionate. Like if you look at Bella check,

like it's a fucking low scoring game and he's not like, well let's go, oh my God, that's stupid, that's kind of stupid, right? Like being able to look long-term and like in this case, like what's best for both the vests in that situation, and like being able to make decisions devoid of emotion. Yeah.

And like, feel what you have to feel, sure, but like whether it's business or whether it's relationship, being able to make decisions independent to that for what's best with the company, best for the relationship, what's best for the individual, that's something that you really can only learn if you force that on yourself and most people aren't willing to have that conversation. And that's a tough conversation. It's a tough conversation. It's hard, man.

I went through a divorce, you know, was three, four years ago, and you kind of have to get to that point, but it's not easy. What point did you get to that point where you could take a step back and separate the emotion and the fear and the attachment and say, okay, this is just what needs to happen. I think for me, I'm lucky in the sense that what I do, what I love to do actually makes me money. So I think it might be a harder advice to take for people who just have a regular nine to five, like to have an anchor that's independent to that. Like, I'll never, this is going to make it sound like morose, but like, I don't ever want my passion to be about another person or my happiness dependent on another person. Or my, maybe better yet, my fulfillment to become, like, come from another person, like, happiness is,

you know, it's cool, sure, but like, I think doing something that fulfills you long-term is really what people should strive for. So I think having that as an operative goal long-term really made the decision easy, where it's like, it's kind of like how I've been and everything. It's like if I'm doing a meet and nothing gets in my way, like if I'm doing, if I want to travel for work and present and I want to build my career and I have a very clear focus on what it is I want to do in career and like I have a very clear focus on what it is I want to do in five years and ten years that makes the decision process easier and that makes it it makes the pulling the emotion part out of it. It's like if anything stands in the way of this as

like cold as that might sound. Now do you come from the camp that everything has happened for a reason and as, cause you guys were together for a long time too. And was that all meant to be and you guys would go separate ways and you're happy for the time that you did spend together or do you come from the camp that you look back and you go like, I probably should have never been with this person. No, no, cause I think like very much a butterfly effect, right?

Actually, someone I've been reading a lot of lately, Sam Harris, and he talks about freewill a lot. And like the facade of freewill, like basically everything happens for a reason, from like a biochemical, neurochemical, like cellular level. He's like the most spiritual atheist of all time. Yeah, but it's unbelievable to have such a fine point on it that's tangible, right? So like, no, because if you're happy with where you're at, you can't regret what got you there. It's sort of like an overarching theme

with anything that I've done. Like, it's like we were talking about ride holiday before, like if you've read obstacles away. Like, it's just, it's about how you frame it, right? Like, because you're gonna learn the lesson whether you like it or not. So it's like you might as well embrace that as a positive and learn from it.

So I think, people who do that, like who like all that was like a waste of time or whatever, like nonsense like that aren't appreciative of what they learned or they didn't open themself up to learn from the experience at all. So no, no, it's definitely like. Are you, do you get afraid that you're,

that you're, because you're so, you're so calm and level headed about things, do you feel like something's gonna come out or did it come out and now you're, you know what I'm saying? You ever get afraid like you bury things? No, yeah. And I'm not saying that you do because here's the thing, we don't see what happens behind closed doors and I'm not one to show that to other people either, but behind closed doors you can have your own, your own breakdown, you know? Yeah, and I don't know, maybe it's, I'm so one to show that to other people either, but behind closed doors, you can have your own breakdown, you know? Yeah, and I don't know, maybe I'm so busy that it's coming,

but I go looking for it, because it's almost like a social pressure in that situation, like, again, this is like a conversation I've divulged with. I'm still hugging you. It's okay. Yeah, well, it's just like, it's not your fault.

It's not your fault. You're watching off movies and you're like, there should be an emotion there, but it's like, I think and you're like, there should be an emotion there, but it's like, I think if you just understand, like for me, it's about like, and watch when I'm fucking break down to the car. After this is such a shit, but it's just like,

fucking mind-pump guys. Just see right to the car. I mean, no, but I think like, again, like, I'm so mean. You're so mean. Sure. That song always gets me. I just think like, I'm so sleepy. That's not going to always get to me. I just think, like, I'm lucky in the situation.

I think I don't want to say unique, but again, what I do for work. Like, you, again, wakes up in the middle of the night, just makes my hair stand on it. Like, I'm willing to, and not even sacrifice, because it's like, I don't know what else I would do. Like, from like, I like presenting more than I enjoy lifting. I'll skip my birthday, I'll skip my mom's birthday, I'll skip Jesus' birthday to lift. I don't care.

This is holding a higher order than that. It's not some profound shaman shittering. I just like getting in a room and I like talking to people about the thing that I've dedicated the better part of the last 13 years of my life to. So like having that as sort of a carrot to chase, like it's not fleeting in the sense I don't think about it, but it's, if knowing that that got taken away as a consequence of not making the decision that we came to, that would be- You guys are amicable? No, yeah, 100% man for sure. That's the way to do it.

I mean, when I get really sad is when I see people separate, especially when they have children, you guys don't have kids, but especially when they have children, where it's like, listen, we can do this in a way and not make it worse. It's already hard, but let's not make it worse. Let's work together to make this as cool as possible

and be understanding of each other because we can, for sure you can make it way worse Let's work together to make this as cool as possible and be understanding of each other because we can, for sure you can make it way worse than it is now. For sure, can we make it better? Can we make it so that things work out well? It sounds like you guys are doing that. Yeah, and there's no need to add insult to injury, right? And I think the worst thing, I can hate people. I'm really good at hating people. I never want to resent someone. And I think there's a difference there where if that's the path you're headed on, it's like that needs to be that. It's just a lifting side here. Yeah, like I hate is like, I don't know, maybe it hates a strong word or whatever. But like it has no effect on my life. Like there are people who they doesn't occupy my time.

But resentment is like that's a really dangerous place to operate time. But resentment is like, that's a really dangerous place to operate from. So it's like, if that's where you think you're headed, I think that's a very like big red flag, but a sign that like a light on the dashboard that says sort of check the engine. Cause like, I've seen that. Like I've seen that in my friend's parents,

where you can tell it's like, I literally have friends who their parents sleep in separate bedrooms. Yeah. It's like, what in? What are you doing? We kind of touched on that before. It's like, who do you think you're helping in a situation?

Do you come from, are your parents still together? Or are they there? I've never seen my parents have fight ever. So was it tough to tell your parents? Because I come from a very traditional family. We had, in my whole family, I'm talking hundreds of people, one divorce. So telling my family, I was going through a divorce.

That was almost as hard as telling my kids, did you have a tough time telling your parents? No, they were good. No. No. Now, were they like, ah, we knew that would happen. No, no, no, no, they were definitely taking them back, but like my parents, they're like, they're the Mick to my Rocky, you know what I mean?

They're in my fucking corner since John's treat. Like, whatever it is that, cause like, I've done some really dumb shit. And like, there's been some like, hey, come pick up your son phone calls, like, 3.30 in the morning, like, they've seen me. I was on a cruise ship when I was 15, and like, I got dragged back to my room in a wheelchair.

Like, my mom has seen me through it. Like, I was fucked out of my mind. Like, that's why I stopped drinking when I was 18. Like, I have a drop alcohol in almost 11 years. And it, but it's like, my mom is like, as long as I'm alive, it doesn't matter. Like, we'll get through it, we'll get over it. Like, it's, I've never really had,

like, if you have that sort of safety net, like, you don't really ever have problems. Sure. Like, and that allows me to operate with a fair amount of free will, because it's like, well, worst case, I can always go back and live with the parents. I mean, I won't live with my parents, because having that freedom allows you to take risks that you don't necessarily, or you might not not necessarily would have taken without that safety net.

But no, there was no outward showing of like, I'm sure after close there was like, man, this fucking kid's gonna die alone. You idiot. Like what are you thinking? But like, when they talked to me one on one, like I've always been the black sheep, but I mean my sister is a,

she's a physician and a, she's like a real doctor with like a real life and no Instagram account. So, and her husband is like wildly successful. My sister, Swam, NCAA, she went to Olympic trials for team Canada. So here I am, like fucking bar fighting hockey player. Wait, you're just going to kind of practice college.

You're playing like a fake doctor on the internet, like, oh, okay. So like my parents are used to me kind of like taking the road less desired or less traveled. So yeah, no, they're totally cool with it. That's good, man. So now, so now you're just traveling. I'm going to pause this right now. Doug, I want you to pause and let's do it right now. Let's call him right now. So I've been texting back and forth with

Ben Greenfield ever since he did the tweet the other day about vaccines. I was just blown away that he put a statement out there like that that vaccines cause autism. And there's been an absolute shit storm on Twitter and I've been telling him, hey, I'm gonna give you a call because I want to talk to you about this. And he's just now, he just now text me right now, so I want, I want to call him Doug and let's, let's get him on the phone real quick. Let's talk. Yo, can you hear us? Yeah. Okay.

Do you have any? I can hear your tiny little high pitch voices. Oh, are you, what are you wearing right now? You shine a red light on your balls right here. Yeah, I've been erupting. I'm, I'm dressed in a bunch of camouflage and giant winter gloves because I'm out shoveling snow off the trough and trying to clear a lane to sight in my bow here. I hear call of you guys. I'll keep it warm. I've got a bow shooting

competition on Saturday so I'm trying to, we've got this ton of snow here and so I'm digging through the snow trying to create a line to be able to issue 50 yards up here in the New York. So I don't want to waste too much of your time because I know you're a busy guy. We tried to connect yesterday and I know you had a bunch of people over the house and we're busy and then I'm only got you for a few minutes. But I saw the shit storm that you're causing on Twitter right now. And I got to hear one why you did it and where that came from. And what's the deal with the vaccines

tweet alright well look i mean any time that you post something like that that cause of some kind of cognitive dissonant that

results in people many people have never heard that view before being jarred out of a viewpoint that they just tell almost religiously and dogmatic as a fundamental truth, people have every right to become upset, that human nature. And so when I post on Twitter that I'm not entirely convinced that vaccines are healthy and I actually think that in some cases they can cause some issues, primarily immune-based issues, right? Because you get this huge activation of the humoral immune response about an opportunity

for the INA to be in response to kick into action, and that's really not the way that a human baby or a human child or a human adult is supposed to encounter an antigen. And so it can create some health issues. And I'm not convinced that those health issues are exceeded by the benefit of the vaccinations of cells. And of course, we could be on this call for a very long time going into the fact that when vaccinations arose,

the society was very filthy. People were dying. Medicine hadn't progressed that far. And even prior to vaccines being introduced, we're beginning to see a reduction. A lot of these diseases due to the emergence of cleanliness and hygiene and medicine. But unfortunately, at the time of vaccines came about, they were effective against something like smallpox, for example, being the most famous.

And so they wound up, they wanted to become quite popular and mandated in many situations. And that kind of relates to why I sent that tweet is because in Washington state right now, they're trying to, based on an outbreak of measles, a rash that, you know, up until 100 years ago, you know, kids would just get a rash, you know, the same way I got chicken pox when I was 10 years old, and you know, you let it run its course and you're sick for a little while, and then your immune system builds up. It's on I-8, you can moral responses, and be able to fight off diseases like that more readily in the future.

And so Washington states trying to get rid of the ability for a parent based on personal or philosophical exemptions or basically what's called is the exemption. The ability to be able to say, hey, why I decided that I don't want to get the vaccine. I've looked at the research and feel like maybe it's going to do more harm than good to my child. But Washington is trying to get rid of that right for the parent and just require vaccines to become mandatory. And I get the logic to a certain extent, right? You get a whole bunch of kids with measles at school, it spreads some kids, you know, potentially those with a weaker immune system, they might actually become very sick and even need to be hospitalized and

and that's that's certainly a risk. It's a risk that that could be overcome by say, you know, keeping your child from school and giving them bone broth and plenty of vitamins and and you know all the things that we know to be able to support the immune system. But ultimately in watching what's happening in washington state and me being the libertarian that i am you know i posted uh... couple of comments about measles in the fact that i don't think that that the vaccine should be required

uh... and that i even feel that that vaccines in some cases are linked to things like autism and of course as you guys saw shit hit the pan uh... yeah no i i i think we all agree with you that i don't think we think anything should be forced or mandated by the government i think i i think we're all in the same page with with those views but you didn't just say that i mean you said vaccines do indeed cause autism i mean you just straight yeah trigger you

trigger the jugular. They're not the sole cause of autism. Don't give me wrong. That's not what I'm saying. No, no, I don't think I don't think you mean that either. But even just to say that in this climate right now is a dangerous thing. I mean, we had we had alluded to that maybe a year or two ago that there's possibilities of that. And we took on a shit storm just for alluding to the possibility of that it could be

a possible and so we had to even bring on an expert in the field to talk to him and and share their point of view and they kind of came the other direction and said that it's all that's been disproven now do you agree or disagree with that? I disagree that the link between vaccines and autism has been disproven. And this kind of, of course, could result in a two-hour long conversation, or I could direct you to, for example, our friend Paul Czechs, recently interviewed with Sherry Tenpenny, in which they delve into this issue for about three hours. Well, we're listen for your audience. Yep. Or even, you know, something through Sherry Tenpenny's book, which I appreciate because every single statement,

you can go find a good research on. You can go to PubMed yourself, you can go to the CDC's website, you can go to all these different sources from her book, probably at top, you can go to the Herb book or the book, there's all the illusions, you know, both written from a very kind of non-dogmatic research-based standpoint, and that's what I appreciate about books like that to be able to go dig into the issue yourself.

And so the resources exist out there to be able to learn more about this, but, man, I was actually shocked myself at the vitriolic nature of the comments that I received. I mean, when I open my Twitter message inbox right now, it is basically baby killer, murderer. I hope you die of polio, I hope you die of measles, I hope you die of smallpox, I hope your children die of measles, I hope your children die of smallpox, I hope your children die of, of, of, of, of smallpox. I hope your, your children die, you know, and, and literally hundreds of extremely vitriolic, uh, hate, spewing in my Twitter inbox. It's, it's, and it's become politicized. That's why it's, it's a, it's a, it's a

new political wedge issue, uh, that they're using to get people to pick sides. And so now, and that's why it's that way. And, you know, fuck those people. You, who owns the, the state doesn why it's that way. And you know, fuck those people. You, who owns the, the state doesn't own your kids. I don't care if I agree or disagree with you. At the end of the day, the government, having the authority to force you to inject something into your own children.

I'm sorry, but that's more than a slippery slope in my opinion. And so, Right, and granted, can the government then say, well, we on the public schools, if your child is not vaccinated, we're not going to allow them into the school, well, fine. Okay. So I got to deal with the consequences of my decision. And I'm not

able to send my child to a school potentially that I'm paying taxes to support because I've made a personal decision. And because that might put other children at risk or at least make parents feel uncomfortable I get it and I'll eat those words. I already told multiple people that you know and you know we used to homeschool our kids they go to private school now if these Washington state laws require that for the private school my children attend I'm not able to have a vaccination on them based on religious personal or philosophical exemptions. I will bite the bullet and it's gonna be a pain

in the ass, but I'll start homeschooling because I'll stand by my words and I'm not gonna force other parents to have to deal with something that I've said, you know, if they're uncomfortable with my kids being at school around them, like, I'll take care of that. You know, I'll be a responsible man and just basically roll with the punches.

But the idea here, you know, big picture is, and I even asked, you know, a jack to see you of Twitter and I are acquaintances. And, you know, I said, I said, you know know you think I should delete the tweet and You know his his recommendation was that you know in most cases, you know It's not a tweet deletion, but sometimes a tweet clarification that might need to be made which I did I I posted four solid Resources for people the exact resources I use to educate myself on this issue, the movie back, the docu-series on vaccines, the book dissolving illusions, and Sherry Tenpenning's book about vaccines. And then, you know, I just basically sent that one clarifying tweet and stirred clear of, you know, engaging in any of the other kind of vitriolic discussions that were on there. But you know what, we live in a society where if you're trying to impress the world,

if you are trying to be the person that the world wants you to be, you're going to be another sheep, you're going to be another lemming, and ultimately, if you say something and receive hate for it, and then pull back on what you said or delete it because of the hate that you're getting, all you're doing is weakening and deluding anything that you might say in the future because it shows that you really don't stand by your words that you're instead just going to to to bend to the whims of whatever the rest of the world wants you to say because you want to be accepted. And in my opinion, this is the same way I'm raising my boys. If you want to be a strong man, if you want to be respected, if you say something, no matter how much hate or grief you get for it, if it's true and you believe it in your core to

be true, you stand by your words, even if it it means you're gonna take a lot of shit for it Ah fucking love you Ben I respect that brother. I respect that. Thanks for coming on man All right guys. Thank you. Yeah, I have have a wonderful day I mean get back into the snow here. Yeah, you two kitchen Twitter. We'll catch you up later brother Okay, all right later see you on the tweet late Bye All right, later, see you on the tweet. Great. Bye. You know, I, I, one of the things I love about that guy and it's probably how he wrapped that all up.

You know, it's beginning he was kind of digging himself into a deeper grave, I thought, with his statements and stuff and he did come out really strong. But I mean, he brings up an incredible point. I agree with, I think we all agree with, that I don't think that the government should intervene on.

Should force it. Here's the problem. The problem is the argument. The argument is being our vaccines perfectly safe for our due vaccines cause things like autism. I don't think that's the necessary argument. You can talk about those things and discuss them, but the real argument is fine. Should the government

have the authority to force you to inject whatever they deemed to be good into your children? It's just like when they had the game marriage debate. Should we let people gay people? The argument was, why are we getting a license from the government to get married? Like that should be the argument. Like that's strange, that's a strange thing. I think it's a strange thing that we allow the government to have the authority to literally inject into, and by the way, this is the same government.

I'm just talking for the US government. I don't know if the Canadian government's done, but I'll tell you something with the US government's done. They've injected people with syphilis. They've sprayed people on fucking cities to test shit on them. They've taken prisoners and given them LSD to see what it does to them.

And not all kinds of weird shit. I just don't trust anybody. Sorry, I don't trust anybody. Especially when they tell me if you don't do this, I'm gonna throw you in jail. Sorry. That same government has orchestrated two world wars to our favor.

I'm not saying they're 100% bad, but I definitely. But I'm saying you gotta take the good with the bad. Oh, wow. I think every time there's a fucking black hawk that lights someone up that would be in your fucking living room otherwise, you fucking hit your knees.

And this is coming from I'm from Canada, right? And I was raised like my, you guys are in my car, so. Like my dad, we got three canoes and a fucking tank. That's it. But it's like, my dad will give up his fucking scene on a plane for American soldier? I always raise.

He's like, we live a damn good. And that's not even the argument I'm making at all. My argument is, especially this country, what it stands for, is for liberty. That's what this country was founded on. I mean, our entire government, if you read the how it was organized originally, the entire thing was organized originally, the

entire thing was not organized in a way to say, this is what government can do or should do for you. It was this, this, this, these documents protect you from your government. They ensure your liberty. And it's a massive assault on liberty to give any, anybody who has the authority to legislate and to throw you into jail or to kill you, which the only legal entity that exists that can do that is the government. You're going to give those same people the authority to say, we can do that to you and we can do whatever we want to your kids. If we decide it's right, then it doesn't matter.

I'm not cool with that. I'm not 100% cool with that. But it's not an alacart menu, man. You can't pick and choose, you can't share. I think that's a fundamental difference between, I don't wanna say socialism, because I think socialism in this country has a negative connotation.

Please don't say so. But listen, dude, I got hit by a fucking car in Santa Clara on my bicycle. I took a Chevy suburban to the shoulder. My left laborer is a hood ornament for this chick's Chevy suburban now. The first thing that I did, the first thing I remember when regaining conscious bleeding

in the street, trying not to get run over was homeboy on the corner and went, yo bro, not are you okay? Was do you have health insurance? Where's the fucking humanity in that? Because he knew that if I didn't, he's not calling 911 because I'm better off getting run over,

it would have cost me less to take a delta flight. First class mind you, from San Jose to Detroit, take an Uber black across the border into my hometown of Windsor, Ontario, walk into a fucking hospital and get seen then, rather than 2.3 miles. Are you using the fucking,

you are not using the medical system as your argument right now, are you? What do you mean? Oh my God. But it's like, it's my idea that like, why you and the guys, you could try, but they trust me, your hospital bills will be really expensive.

But it's like the idea. Bro, I'm not gonna fight fair, come on dude. No, I don't wanna, here's the thing. That's, I mean, we can get into a discussion about socialism versus trade markets. We could do all that, but my argument at the end of the day, fundamentally, nobody should be able to tell who owns my body, who owns my mind.

I own these things. Nobody else does, and it's a very strange thing to give it somebody else the power to force you To do to your body and your mind or to throw you in jail for doing things that you do to your own body and your own mind But what it's illegal for me to take a drug But do it is it illegal for me to kill myself and if you think taking a drug is killing myself than what's the difference if if my Kid these are my children and at the end of the day There are fucked up parents that do stupid shit, that abuse their kids and put their kids on weird diets

or neglect their children, I get that. But for the most part, I'm gonna tell you something right now, I trust parents of their kids way more than I trust government with our kids, way more. History is on my side. You look right at first as responsibilities, man. Like if people are advocating their responsibility and focusing only on their God given right from the Constitution, it's like, okay, no, then there has to be an intervention.

Your kid is a loaded fucking gun. Walking into a school, because here's the thing, when he talked about these physiological changes, like that's Darwinism. This doesn't, like the attenuated, like, version of the virus that you're getting exposed to as a means, because if you think about the way vaccinations work, is that it is actually promoting an innate response. It's an attendee way. But like if you remove that, okay, all right,

what you're willing to sacrifice is generations. It'll happen. Like if we all turn to blind eye to peanut allergies and let a bunch of fucking people die, like I fly international with nuts all the time. And I'm at 36,000 feet for like seven hours. I'm like, fuck this guy. I don't know where he is.

I'm gonna weed him out. I'm opening this fucking bag of peanuts. I'm starving. If we did that, and we had a bunch of dead people on planes in a few generations, yeah, sure. Not no more little announcement. Like, hey, you know, guys welcome to flight an American Airlines flight to whatever the fuck.

And it just really, someone has a severe nut allergy today like yeah, that all right If you were willing and put yourself in the position where your kids fucking dead Yeah, yeah, no that's generation. It does that's not gonna happen like well, you know Listen at the end of the day if it's a private school and the private school says we don't want kids that aren't vaccinated That's totally within the right public schools owned by the state I get that. If you own a business and you put a sign on your business and you say, hey, you can't walk in unless you're vaccinated,

totally within your right. That's your private property. You have every right to do that, but the parents and people also have every right to say what goes in their own bodies. It's just the way it works. And this is what's the wonderful thing about Liberty, is it checks itself.

My Liberty is freedom constrained only by the Liberty of others. That's it. It doesn't mean I'm free to do what the fuck I want. It means I'm free to do what I want so long as I don't infringe on other people. So when your kids in public, he's in a bubble. Or he can walk into a fucking Walmart. Or like, if someone gets fucking Ebola,

they go right to the airport. Like, here's funny, this is what's funny. In Washington, D.C., how many cases of measles that they have dug? Why don't you look at it? I think it was like 40-something cases of measles or something. It was definitely less than 100.

And they called it a state of emergency. In that same period of time, do you know how many kids died of drowning in a pool or slipping on their skateboard or whatever? Do you not need to do a second amendment argument? Maybe the right to bear arms was the right to wear the fucking cut off t-shirts. Like, fucking, you guys, it blows my mind when I live in this.

You guys look just like me. Why are you saying this shit? Doesn't make any, like, you guys should all be comfortable. Because my blood runs red, bro. Oh my god. On the boat throwing tea into the harbor. Like, 53 cases of measles. Do you understand how herd immunity works? Yeah, I do.

Because 53 goes to 100 and then every kid in Washington is dead. Oh, whoa. But like, no, but like that's how it works. Like it's not a linear progression with this shit, right? Like think of degrees of separation. Okay, so here, so look, okay, I'm going to use that. I'm going to stretch your, I'm going to stretch your argument out a little bit. Okay, let's do this. Okay. This is good for you.

No, no, this is good. Let's stretch our argument out, okay? I know a place where food is provided for free, where all weapons are strictly, strictly, strictly regulated, where people are controlled. You have people looking out for your safety at every checkpoint. It's called prison, and I don't wanna fucking live there. So here's a deal.

I'd rather live in a free country where I run the risk of Crazy shit happening then live under the heel of some fucking tyrannical government that's keeping me safe because throughout all of history That's how they've sold it always always always and it is a slippery slippery slup look We'll use we'll use England as an example use Canada's example. They're starting to They're starting to regulate speech Who determines what's hate speech? And where do you think that ends? Where's that gonna go?

You know what hate speech was 200 years ago? It was people saying, or 400 or 500 years ago, was people saying the king is tyrannical. That was hate speech back then. It was hate speech to say, I don't believe in Christianity and people would kill you. I want shit to be free because so far, throughout all the history,

that is what's brought us real prosperity, real equality, and I will never trade safety for, or excuse me, trade my liberty for the promise, the false promise of safety. And this right here looks to me like, like you gotta be kidding me, like, okay, fine. People getting some kids are getting measles, that's terrible, that sucks, you don't wanna let kids go to certain like, like you got to be kidding me, like, okay fine. People getting some kids are getting measles, that's terrible, that sucks.

You don't want to let kids go to certain schools. That's totally up to them. But the second the government knocks down their door, because that's where it's gonna get. It's gonna get to the point where someone like Ben is gonna get fined and or his kids will get taken away because he's not letting the government give them a vaccine. He's not Alex fucking Joe.

He's like, no, read that as 53 kids died because of ISIS terrorists attack in Washington and watch the fucking whirly birds go up and watch us fucking carpet on the shit out of it, right? Like that, if that happened, we'd be sitting here fucking firing off revolver rounds, like fucking red, white, and blue motherfucker. But because it's measles and there's like this,

this ideal of like, you know, don't fucking tread on me. And then this idea of like protection from your own government, you frame it differently. But it's the same fucking thing, right? Like, and it's just- I don't know, I don't know if it is, but- So what, and there are also discounting the fact

that what if, what if Ben is right? What if the woo-woo people that do believe that there may be some sort of correlation between these vaccines? Or just the amount of them, or that maybe they're not all created equal, because vaccines aren't all created. What if? But don't throw the baby out with the bath water, right?

Well, I know, that's a whole other argument. I'm not on the, I'm not an anti-vaxxer, okay? I want to be clear, I think vaccines are one of the single most greatest things that Western medicine has brought to the world. That's my personal belief. I don't think all vaccines are equal though. Now, I'm not gonna say which ones I think are better than others.

I don't have enough information to discern that, but I have enough information to know that they're not all equal. There have been cases where vaccines have had to be recalled. There's been situations where there's been problems. There's been Romain lettuce that has to be recalled. You're right. All Romain lettuce isn't equated equal either, right? So anyway, that's, but as far as this is concerned, look, the way I look at it, Ben wants

to raise his kids a particular way. If the government says you can't take him to public schools and if the private school says we can't let you in either and he's saying I'm willing to home school him fine, but if they get to the point where they're knocked down his door and take his kids away, I'm gonna be there, man. I'm gonna be there holding a sign. There are a lot more likely to do that

if you put it on fucking Twitter. And somebody's gotta do it. Oh, he's not a pie, he's not sitting down on a fucking bus. Let's be serious, he's not a fucking, he's not a civil rights movement. He's not a pie, he's a pie. He's not a pie, he's not sitting down on a fucking bus. Let's be serious, he's not a fucking, he's not a civil rights movement. He's a ploy, he's a ploy. He's a ploy, he's a ploy. He's an influencer shuffling for an archery match

in his fucking driveway. He's not rose a fucking park. He's not an army, I love the guy. I was blown away by his intellect. This blows me away, the level of disconnect. Like not a god complex, but at the same time, you're not an order of our day, right? Like this is clearly driven,

whether consciously or subconsciously, by us having this conversation, the reverberation, any publicity is bad publicity. When fucking Nike ran that ad with Kaepernick, right? Did you see Bloomberg's report on that? Of like the net positive financial benefit of that. I posted that. Now he's not fucking Nike,

but I guarantee you to his social brand, the polarization in both direction. I'm sure you weighed that out. I wish we got into that. I'm sure you weighed that out. I wish we got into that. I'm sure you weighed that out. I wish we got into that.

I wish we got into that. I wish we got into that. I wish we got into that. I wish we got into that. I wish we got into that. I wish we got into that. I wish we got into that. I wish we got into that.

I wish we got into that. I wish we got into that. I wish we got into that. I wish we got into that. I wish we got into just get, let's have fun here. Let's say you have kids. And by the way, if you ever wanna get people fucking riled up, just tell them what they have to do with their kids. And that's one of the big things here. But let's say you had kids, and let's say you send them to school and they're like, listen, we're gonna teach kids

that sexual preference, that's, there's nothing in aid about it, it's learned. We're gonna teach them, just, you know, do all kinds of crazy stuff. Their gender is, I'm touching some third rails here. I don't know where your stances are on that kind of stuff. But let's say you disagree with that, but they're like, no, this is the way it is.

And if you don't teach your kids this way, we're gonna have to take them away. Like, what do you do at that point? What if, they have all the science to support them, but you believe against that? Or what if you're religious, and they're saying religious, religion is bad? Or what if they're religious, and they're saying atheism is bad? bad and you're like no, I want to raise my kids a particular way

Like what where do we draw the line where the government's gonna can tell you what you can and can't do with your own kids I understand not hurting them. I understand you know not beating them I understand all that shit and like I said there's a lot of terrible terrible people out there But here this is a something that's it's a it's a lot of terrible, terrible people out there, but here this is a something that's, it's a preventative, you're not giving them something to cure something that they already have. It's a preventative, and they already have laws to say that they shouldn't go to public areas or public schools, and I get that, I think Ben gets that.

Where do you draw the line? I mean, when I was a kid, Pluto was still a planet, and they taught that vehemently to us in like the fourth grade. And then it became not just a mind, was still a planet and they taught that vehemently to us in like the fourth grade. And then it became not just mine. It's a dwarf planet. Oh, thank you very much. New of the grass Tyson. But it's like, it doesn't, my parents taught me how to be critical and taught me how to

appraise things and taught me to make up my own fucking mind taught me how to learn. But these are, this is a government making up their mind for you. But the government made up their mind that part of the curriculum that was Pluto was a planet and it had no bearing on my life. It's like, it- Well, not injecting you with Pluto. Yeah, but like, I just, I think you're just like drawing false equivalents. And we're done!

He's gonna pull a George Costanza. I think that's- I think that's- You're drawing a false equivalency there. I did. I did draw false equivalents. You know it's funny, I was watching Seinfeld last night. So I'm taking my girl through.

She's never watched it. Oh, and it was the George. George, good. George Kustanza talks about, so he's leaving a high note. He's got a girlfriend at this time, and they are, you know, and then he's got Elaine and Jerry and Kramer, and that's this, and he keeps them separate. He tells them separate worlds.

And then Elaine starts hanging out with his girlfriend and he's freaking out the time my worlds are Colliding Anyway, well look it's a it's a heated discussion and I whatever I really don't care I just support people you know standing up for themselves and I I'm on Ben's side not necessarily that vaccines cause autism But that they shouldn't be able to force his kids, but whatever look whatever. Let's talk about cool. Let's talk about light stuff now they shouldn't be able to force his kids, but whatever, look, whatever. Let's talk about cool, let's talk about light stuff now.

No, I wanted to stir it up here for a minute. Here's the thing for me. I mean, this is on my mind a lot right now. I mean, I've got a baby boy around the corner that's coming in August, and I don't know where I stand on the whole vaccine thing. I mean, I've been reading, I've heard of million different people who have a million

different arguments, I get brilliant people in the same room that debate and disagree with each other. And so someone like me, it puts me in a very hard decision on the man, where will I draw the line? Or will I let them inject my baby with nine different things and be okay with it? Because I think that's the smarter thing to do. I don't know yet, man.

I think it just comes down to your dedicated, not in my own dedication, it's the wrong word, but like your dedication for lack of a better word, to the collective, to the forwarding of humanity as a whole, to be a part of this idea of shared responsibility. I think is what's kind of on trial here, like the psychological phenomenon of shared response. So you're like for the betterment of the evolution

of human, we should all do it. And then if we find out in five years that it does cause autism and my kittens have fucked gets fucked because of it It's like well, I still did the right thing because we had to get we had to figure it out sooner or later Yeah, yeah, I think there's I think it lost me here But I think there's a there's a there's a sacrifice you have to make and have to be willing to make and I think depending on your influence growing up That's that's I'm glad you said that because that's actually a fundamental I think depending on your influence growing up. That's I'm glad you said that because that's actually a fundamental

difference in how I think about things. The way I look at society is if we want society to progress in the best way possible then rather than focusing on everybody else and everything else Focus on ourselves make ourselves the best versions we can possibly be make ourselves good people Because in reality, that's really all you ever control, because you do get a lot of people that stand on soap boxes that preach and tell people what to do, and here's what's better for you, and here's what's better for everybody else. But really, it's like make your own bed, clean your own room, take care of yourself, make yourself the best person possible, and then we'll see what ends up happening. And it's really fundamentally the difference between a collectivist attitude and an attitude based on individuals.

And society isn't, society is a collection of individuals. That's all it is. Yeah, but if your kid doesn't make his bed, my kid's made bed doesn't all of a sudden get unmade. Right? Like, that's, I got it. I think. You have every, look at it, here's a deal.

You have every right to keep your kid away from other kids, whoever you want. And if that ends up happening, so here's my, here's what I think would end up happening. If we go down this dystopian path, you'll end up having people buy property and you have to have a, you have to have a mark on you that says you're vaccinated and you can't come in here if you're not vaccinated. And people would have that right. That would be within everybody's. I don't think you'll get there. I don't think that that's, you know, again, I'm painting a dystopian future, but look, here's a deal. I'm less worried about kids getting vaccinated for measles

than I am about bacteria that are fucking, that are morphing right now, that we're not gonna be able to treat with antibiotics. The way I look at it, so what you just said, I think it's a great point because the way I look at it is, let's look at both sides and look at the worst case scenario in both sides and which is worse there sides and look at the worst case scenario in both sides and which is worse there.

You know, if worst case scenario, this shit does potentially cause some of those things or could affect my kid or worst case scenario, we live in a world where people have dots on their wrist and you're allowed places and you're not allowed places which would I rather deal with, well, I'd rather deal with that situation. You'd rather deal with like a fucking fucking hunger games district 12 shit than like maybe

like a one-off aberration pandemic then wipes out and then it's the problem solved. We're other deal with that. Well, here's a deal of all the vaccines which ones are the ones that are that are preventing death pandemics. Like measles, not a great thing to have, but it is up there with chicken pox. So that's not a pandemic that's gonna kill people. What, flu vaccine? I could see polio, that one's a little bit different. Small pox, I could see something like that.

So they're not all really great people. So what if the government mandated like, we went out and maybe we tweeted about it, let's say, like the ones we thought were okay, and then the government went, okay, based off of your tweet, sir, or ma'am, whoever you might be with your opinion on the internet, and then would you be cool with that?

Like, if you had like, Sal's top three, and you had a cool hashtag with it. No, I don't trust anybody with the authority to force people to do anything with their bodies, including myself. I don't think anybody has or should have that authority. And here's a deal. Speaking of dystopian realities,

the only true real dystopian realities that have ever really existed were those where the government had a lot of fucking control. You go to Soviet Russia. There are people right now in China. There are Christians right now in China being persecuted. Muslims in China being persecuted. They have a system right now where you're walking around.

They have artificial intelligence watching you and can tell who you can hang around with. And if you hang around with this person, your social credit score goes down. Now you can't travel. They're just clamping down. That doesn't exist in free states. It doesn't exist in free societies.

And they're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But liberty is the only thing that's ever brought real Equality to the small to the individual to women to minorities. It's what lifted people from poverty I would rather be poor in a free place than be fucking middle class in a communist country But you're not the only country with liberty Australia went through full stops at all right You guys know more guns one fucking shooting and that was it. All right, kids don't want to get vaccinated, fuck it, they're not going to school. But it's a well developed, it's a four-ish economy.

It's definitely freer. It's definitely freer. But this is the freest. No, we're not even, but we're not the freest either, but there's definitely a spectrum. But if you don't have those protections put in place, it becomes a slippery slope. There was a comedian in the UK that could, he got in big trouble.

I believe he might have gotten thrown in jail if not a huge fine because he made YouTube videos because he taught his girlfriend's pug how to do the Hitler salute. This is no joke. He thought it would be funny if he taught this pug to do the Hitler salute and to react to some pretty terrible things. And it was, some people thought it was funny, some people thought it, but a lot of people got really offended. They actually persecuted this guy for a fucking joke. Now that's, that's what happens when you don't have freedom of speech, which they don't

have. In the US, we have certain protections that other countries don't have. One of them is a second amendment. And I'm going to tell taste of about the second amendment as imperfect as it is it's the amendment that gives all the other ones teeth like how you can protect your freedom of anything if you if you don't have any threat of force of violence

and so that's why it exists uh... just i can't i can't with the gun thing uh... no i do that fluid in the vegas with the windows still shot out in mandalay bay i had a friend close friend of mine who's best friend died at that. That's a strong man argument. There's no way.

You're not Japanese internment camps in the war. This is out of time. This is old testament shit. Time to rewrite, right? I think it's... Two pieces already out anyway, so it doesn't matter. What's that? The toothpaste is already out.

There's no way you would go back to that. Yeah, you know how many guns are circulating in the US that aren't even registered? Like, what are you gonna do? Like, we're at the point now where it's like, it's kind of a silly, I could see certain regulations and stuff like that. Yeah, you would take it out of the hands or the right people and the wrong people would still have it.

What do I, we would do just morph into Ted Nugent with colorful socks, all of a sudden. What the fuck am I? All right, Alex Jones on one side, Ted Nugent on the other? Jesus. We just had to get your Canadian ass fucking to bleed together here, dude.

We're gonna go in here, I don't even know you're like Mr. Healthcare guy vaccine. I don't even know you're in the healthcare industry. Yeah, which makes you biased, fuck you. Yeah, like, fuck you. And we're heading down the dystopian way anyways. I've already been saying this, I think in our lifetime, we're gonna have the plugged and plugged in. I'll fucking have that argument all day with you. Yeah, we're heading down the dystopian way anyways. I've already been saying this. I think in our lifetime, we're going to have the plugged and plugged in. I'll fucking have that argument all day

with you. I think that we are heading and it's right in front of us. It's and it's going to happen sooner than later. Anarchy is is is around the corner and there's nothing that government's going to be able to do. But when you have 3d printers that you'll be able to print whatever the fuck you want for cheap patents are obsolete. When you're going to be able to print whatever the fuck you want for cheap, patents are obsolete. When you're gonna be able to print your own drugs, print your own guns, good luck regulating anything. And I'm not that's good or bad, but that's the direction it's gonna go. I'm gonna eat you first, though. It's unreal for me.

No, you won't, because you're bigger and stronger, but I got guns. Last sleep some time, man. Anyway, dude, always. I fucking love talking to you, dude. But I got guns Anyway, dude always I do I do dude I'm gonna my first you better not be a stranger man I'll be back. Yeah, you better come down here Even if we got to fly your ass down here We got to come down here and at least visit us and we got to make our way up there So you're gonna be on the road for at least to a year, 10 months or so before you maybe settle down. And two weeks later next I go Tampa.

So all right, I got this down now because I need to make sure I have a roof over my head. So Tampa, Columbus, Miami, Tampa, DC, New York, Tampa, Bahamas, LA, Toronto, Victoria, San Diego, Whippy Bradfordford Toronto, and then it's, is that an acronym or something? Oh, he's a Jolai. Wow, wow. And then I got Winnipeg booked in October. And how long does that for?

So that'll bring me to July, me and Ben are looking at some European dates in Dubai, UK, Iceland, Rome, where else? Gotta get a jump in one of these trips, dude. Rome, where else? Gotta get a jump in one of these trips, dude. Oh dude. You're not going anywhere, dude. You gotta keep your eyes on it. That's why I gotta do it now. I gotta do it now.

Oh yeah, I can treat him. You stoked about that. Yeah. I gotta get my living in now. Sorry, sweetheart. Yeah, right. I'm looking at the morning segment. Well, fucking good luck, dude.

You've always got our support. One of our absolute favorite people to talk to in one of the lights in the industry, really. One of the people speaking the truth about fitness and how to apply it properly. And of course, always open to discussion debate. And I really appreciate that about you. No, I mean, you guys put this whole fucking thing

on a T for me. When I get stopped in gyms, it's like I heard you on my phone. I saw you on my phone, I heard you on my, I saw you on my, I heard you on my, so you guys rolled the dice on some punk-ass kid. I was doing the math of the day. A guy literally came up to me yesterday and I was like, he was talking about you and he's like, oh, I believe he's having a kid.

The level in which people are invested into what you guys are doing and the message you're spreading and like talking about being a light in the industry, like to engage at the level you have and build trust from the fitness, centric world that we all come in and then branch out to like, hey, there's more to life than just inside the gym and be able to do that with integrity and be able to do that with the same critical thinking you applied to what kind of gave you guys your

start. I think makes you guys really unique. And the impact you guys are having, like, get out there. I want you guys to not fucking touch now for a year, because you'll see, like I see at first hand the level you guys have had, at the level of the end user, the listener, like dude, I was in, I was at Gary Denko, like one of the spots in San Francisco, right? What the Somalia was a huge mindfulness fan.

He recognized, so they go over, they go over the, the reservation, no, they go over the reservations before every, every setting every, every setting, and be like, you know, like who's, who's coming in? Like if you got presidents or diplomats or actors or whatever, like it's a fucking, it's a Michelin star restaurant in San Francisco.

And the Somalia was like, I know that guy. And so like I walked in the door and the guy had like two glasses of champagne ready for it. Like I looked like a fucking boss. Like one of the nicest restaurants in the world. That's so awesome. And because he heard me on Mindpop, he drove, so he drove, he drives from Sonoma to San Francisco every day

to be a Somali-A at Gary Danko, because it's a very prestigious visit. And in that process of years of doing that, he found you guys and he lost over a hundred pounds with your advice. Oh wow. Like you were almost in tears, man. Like I was literally like, I was with my wife at the time

and I was just like, are you okay? I'm like, I'm fine. I'm fine. But it's like, that's powerful shit, man. And that's the stuff that gets me, man. I think you guys gotta go out there and really see like, I mean, I don't know how you do it with like, traveling and all that, but really see the impact.

No, we're, so we are actually, I'm in fact after this, I meet with Taylor about the first event he's got lined up for us. So the goal is for us to travel seven places. We can't quite hang with what you're doing. That's crazy. But the goal is to get out there to seven different locations this year.

We did four last year. And we're trying to do that, man. I mean, we're, I mean, everything that we've been building, it takes a lot of effort and work here. And so it is a lot of work for us to get out there. But we've manned a few times that we have. We all, every time we've loved it. Yeah, we all, we all, we all, we all talk about what a pain

the ass it is to do it. And it's not very beneficial financially. But then we all go and then we realize how rewarding it is because we get a chance to actually meet and talk to those people. Man, it is, it is important. Yeah. The level of impact you guys have had on me

from let the do me. And me and you and Craig are at fucking yard house six years ago. You were still like, yeah, man. Like I was just starting school. I was writing for the puppy, dude. I remember you're like, who is this meathead? I just remember like just like the bicep vein.

I was like, man, yeah, this guy sounds like you know what he's talking about. Yeah, and then from that to like the YouTube stuff we did and then getting on the podcast, like you've been equally as influential on me as the guy that lost 120 pounds. As the kid in the gym in Lebanon who comes up to me who's like, oh man, like I saw this and they got me into this, like the domino effect that you guys have had

and you guys do not appreciate or do not give yourselves enough credit or you aren't given enough credit for the actual power you guys yield and you guys do not appreciate, or do not give yourselves enough credit, or you aren't given enough credit for the actual power you guys yield, and you guys yield it responsibly and have such a benefit on so many people's lives. So I mean, hats off to you guys. Stop it, do you get to make me all emotional here? I appreciate it, I appreciate you guys.

I'll keep going, I'm not done yet. Is that why these chairs are so cute? Yeah, yeah. Well, we love you brother. Always, I was a good time having you here. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy,

and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbumble at Mind Pump Media.com. The RGB Superbumble includes maps and a ballac, maps performance, and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased, expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Superbumble is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers,

but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at MindPumpMedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.