Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - BONUS: Matthew Januszek of Escape Fitness

Episode Date: November 26, 2019

In this episode, Sal, Adam and Justin speak with Matthew Januszek, entrepreneur and founder of Escape Fitness. His take on the new 49ers Fit gym? (3:25) From roller-skates to bodybuilding: His introduction into fitness. (4:24) Where did the idea for the gym equipment company come from? (6:50) What did the process of scaling look like? (11:57) How his passion for fitness fueled the company's early mishaps. (13:35) When where they able to service outside the UK? (17:22) The moment he knew it was time to quit his day job and go all in. (18:06) Why success is not a straight line. (20:00) What attributes have served him the most? (21:54) The crucial things that have contributed to his success. (23:43) What practices does he put in place to forge quality relationships? (26:15) Their evolution of marketing and advertising. (29:20) The differences between the US and European markets/trends. (33:13) His take on moving the gym experience to the home setting. (37:56) What separates his company from the rest? (40:02) How there are always ways to innovate and grow. (46:26) Is there any new equipment that is getting him excited? (49:10) Why there is no shortage of great ideas. (51:14) Where does he focus most of his energy? (52:56) What does he find challenging about working with family? (55:26) How every level that you get to there are new lessons to be learned. (59:15) Will he ever sell the company? (1:01:54) Featured Guest Matthew Januszek (@matthewjanuszek)  Instagram Related Links/Products Mentioned November Promotion: MAPS Performance ½ off!! **Code “GREEN50” at checkout** Escape Fitness: Functional Fitness Equipment Podcast | Fitness Industry Influencers | Escape Fitness Mind Pump 985: Mark Mastrov- Fitness Industry Empire Builder, NBA Owner & Original Mind Pump Mentor

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, ob-mite, up with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this episode of Mind Pump, this is a sponsored episode by Escape Fitness. So this is a company that makes commercial Jim equipment and so we interviewed the co-founder Matthew Genesek great guy He's a guest on the show obviously is also the host of the escape your limits podcast So it does have his own podcast and he's he shares knowledge on his podcast and insight for fitness entrepreneurs Every single week now the company escape are specialists in creating the ultimate

fitness experience in over 80 countries through game changing gym design, industry leading equipment, online or face-to-face education and business in a box programming. So if you want to learn more about this company, just go to escapefitness.com. Now before we start the episode, I wanna let everybody know that one of our biggest promotions ever, Maps Performance being 50% off, that ends in five days. You got five days to act, that's it. And remember, Maps Performance is our fitness program designed to build muscle, burn body fat,

and dramatically improve your mobility and athletic performance. So it's a different workout than your traditional resistance training workouts. Now, if you want to take advantage of this promotion, go to mapsgreen.com and use the code green50, g-r-e-n-5-0, no space for the 50% off discount. And without any further ado, here we are interviewing Matthew Genosek of Escape Fitness. So Matt, I think I talked to you, I might have been like four or five months ago, maybe even longer, right?

It was a little while ago. Yeah, it's same to take a while for us to kind of get together. Yeah, so what we typically do when we have a guest on the show, there's a few different ways we have a guest on the show, either one of us is really interested in talking to somebody. So we reach out and have them on. The other way is that they reach out to us and we get quite a few of these inquiries per day and our assistant Rachel will come in, she'll bring us the people who are interested

and we'll look over them. And then the next step is typically I'll get on the phone with them and talk to them to see if it's a good fit, if it's gonna be good for the show, if we think it's gonna provide value. And so I got on the phone with you and I had no idea who you were. All the forum said was that you had

a very successful gym equipment business. And so I got on the phone with you. And we actually know quite a few people in common. That's what really got me interested you Your company and we'll get into how that all started, but your company provides equipment to some of the the gyms that Mark Maastroff owns here in the in the area. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct Yeah, I was just saying I was down at there

UFC HQ yesterday So we we worked with there. they've got a number of brands, but we worked with the UFC brands on the corporate and franchise side, also Crunch. And now some of Mark's new ventures into 49ers, cowboy fit, and some of the sort of what you call football gyms that are franchises that they start to do. What do you think about those combinations,

what they're doing? We just went to the 49er fit club here in San Jose recently, and it's one of the nicest best equipped gyms that... That's a beautiful club. Yeah, that we've ever seen in terms of just, it's not a country club, but it's very, very nice. They have everything. And the equipment is phenomenal, a layout is phenomenal. I know it's what's his club, but it's very, very nice. They have everything. And the equipment is phenomenal.

Layouts phenomenal. I know it's what's his name. Mike Finney, who organizes and designs things. It's brilliant. Well, phenomenal. What do you think about this combination with these pro teams? Well, I've been following it.

Obviously, they chose to use Escape, which is fantastic. But I've followed Mark for a long time and without really knowing the details, what I've learned is anything he does, there's a reason and he's an extremely smart guy. So without fully understanding the business model, if Mark's involved, I think it's a great idea and it's going to work. Good back, good back. I put my money on that one. So how long have you been in

business? How did you start your equipment company? I've been going now just over 20 years and I kind of started, I think I got my first interest in fitness when I was about 15, 16 years old, fell off my roller skates, had a reason to take some time off school, which at that age was fantastic because I didn't like school, school didn't like me. And so I came home and I had these old VHS video cassettes, I'm showing my age now.

And somehow there was this pumping iron VHS cassette there. And I watched it every single day. I sort of know. For the whole, like, three or four times a day. And I sort of, you know, tell people the story. I was on these crutches, because I couldn't walk very well. And I used to go up and down the living room, you know, getting food and stuff while I was watching the DVDs.

And I remember sort of going past the mirror, seeing a bit of a tricep kind of note it. I'm like, oh wow, you know, I've got genetics and I had this dream of being Arnold Schwarzenegger and that was really where it all started. Wow. And did you compete at all or were you just training? Yeah, I did up until 21.

I did bunch of junior competitions. You know, reasonable level, I wasn't, you know, wasn't anything fantastic, but I did compete and did okay. I just didn't have the natural genetics to go on beyond that. In the UK, when you got to 21, you went up into a novice category, and it was just a totally different level, and I thought, OK, I've done my part.

Roller skates to bodybuilding. Sounds like a natural progression there. Roller skates on bodybuilders on Rolls gets on. So when exactly did the idea of the gym equipment happen? And did you have experience in other businesses related to fitness? Or was this really your first introduction into business with fitness? Like, how did that all start? Yeah, I'd always, so when I was doing the bodybuilding, I worked for my grandfather in the dental business,

which is totally different, which I left school with one exam, which was in woodwork and metalwork. I got my exam by making a squat stands and adjustable bench, which was kind of logic. I thought, well, if I'm going to do this, I need to make something I can use in my home gym. And I happened to get a qualification because it was a pretty good idea, which wasn't my intention. It was just to build out my home gym. So I, you know, left school fell into my grandfather's business because it was the only thing that I could get employed for doing because it was my grandfather who offered me the job. But I didn't, it wasn't my passion.

So in the evenings I used to be a dormant because I was a pretty decent size. So I'd work 9 to 5 and then I'd drive for an hour to notting him, which is sort of north of England. And I'd work on the doors from sort of, you know, nine to two drive back. And I'd do that three or four days. And so I used to sort of work in the nightclubs and do what you do in that kind of business

to make some side money and hang around other body builders. And I just wanted to be in the gym business. So anything I could do to sort of subsidize my boring day job I did. You know, my dad tried different ideas from, we did think about starting a gym, but we couldn't raise the money. So that was an idea at one point.

And then we started saying ladies close into Poland. And that was a great idea. It was great fun. Ladies close. Yeah, it was a bizarre. I had a girlfriend whose father had market stores and he used to sell ladies' dresses and I was kind of chatting to him one day

and I thought, okay, this is a good, you know, you got money, you had a lovely car, big house, you know, this is a good business to get in. So I asked him if I could get some ladies' clothes. And my dad always, I'm half Polish, my dad's Polish. And he always said, you know, think about Poland, there's gonna be some good opportunities there. So I thought, okay, my dad, Tom, we Poland, ladies, dresses, let's drive to Poland with these expensive dresses into

almost like a, it wasn't a third world country, but it wasn't the most well off country. And I would somehow sell these. So, so I loaded up a Jeep and we drove from England through Holland Germany up up into Poland and then I just knocked on the door shops trying to sell these ladies dresses And I sold them which is but but it wasn't I think we talked about it early It wasn't scalable like I couldn't do this although I would have loved to have done it every week. I just couldn't Couldn't have done it you're limited. I was fairly was fairly limited, yeah. But I learned some good lessons. Mainly because you didn't fit in the dresses or what. How are we going to smuggle these in? So from there, and I did have to smuggle them

because it was before the party was open. So when you got through the customs, someone had to bring you into the country. So you couldn't just go into Poland, particularly not with boxes of kind of commercial goods. So we had to kind of give the guys a few dresses and jumpers to let us go through. Oh wow, that's just a story. How did you progress into the business you're doing now?

We started this company selling dresses called Escape. That was the name that we had for the ladies dress. So nothing to do with fitness. And the name of that came up, friend of mine, we used to run parties, we used to rent nightclubs and put on dance events. We'd hire a DJ and we'd promote them. So we did one event, wasn't particularly successful.

So we were sat out the back while the party was going on inside thinking about the next scheme. And we came up with this dress idea. And I said, okay, we need a name for the business. What should we call it? He said, escape. I said, why escape? He said, well, we just want to escape this place.

We were in this little town that we didn't want to be in, and life was pretty crap. He said, let's just call it escape because we want to escape. That was really where the name of the business started. It was just to try and get away from, we didn't have a lot, didn't have any money, didn't have any sort of prospects. We were just bumming around and so the idea was to come up with something where we could escape from where we were. So, yeah. So we originally started off as selling dresses. Where is the pivot come to making gym equipment? Oh, yeah, selling it. So, so we sort of that failed, but we had a name of a company.

And then I was in the gym. I used to go to this old, really old school gym called Club 71. And it was a bodybuilding gym. So I had the sort of serious professional real lifters in the corner that used to do Olympic lifting before it was popular with CrossFit, you know, way before that. And then the bodybuilders used to kind of lifting before it was popular with CrossFit, you know, way before that. And then the bodybuilders used to kind of get the second hand, the second level of equipment

because they weren't classed as being sort of, you know, really serious, you know. So the professional guys had nice bars and nice bumpers. And whenever you used to come in the gym, you used to sort of sit there drooling, looking at the weights they were lifting, almost like wishing that we could use that kind of stuff, because we had these cheap steel ones and they had the nice rubber ones. And I remember sitting on the end of a bench press looking and the plates that they had, they had Poland written on the side, because at the time the government used to make these bumper plates for all the Olympic teams in Poland.

And they, instead of having, you know, escape or whatever on the side, it just had Poland. And so all these sort of things connected in my mind, my dad talking about Poland, just wanting to get a business blah, blah, blah, and I went home to my father and I said, look, I've got this idea, if you could find out where they make these plates in Poland, instead of selling dresses in Poland, I can knock on doors of gyms and sell weight plates to gyms. And that was really how the idea started. And my dad, you know, he was brushed up on his Polish and he rang up a lot of ants and uncalls and distant relatives and managed to find a factory in Poland that made these.

And that's kind of how the whole thing started. Wow. Now did it take off right away? What were the growing pains life? Because you've been in business now for 20 years. You're obviously very successful now. What did that process look like of scaling? Well, it took about 18 months just to get a reliable source

because when at the time we found this factory and it was an old dilapidated place that had really got run down, it wasn't selling a lot. So it wasn't a great supply, but it was enough to bring a few weights and then all of a sudden you'd lose contact for a few months. It's like, okay, what's going on?

Where is everybody? And they didn't answer the phones, and then all of a sudden they'd pick up, and it's like, oh, okay, we're ready to go again. And it was very inconsistent. So it took us a long time just to get an actual product. The most difficult thing in the first few years was finding a reliable supply of these products, not selling it. We had people who wanted to buy it, but we couldn't find anybody to make it.

So we started in Poland, and then I went to a big show in Germany called Fibo. It's one of the biggest fitness shows I guess in the world now. And I went there, and I found this German company that had everything that we wanted, really. It had a catalog. It had dumbbells, it had discs, and when I saw that company, that was a turning point for me, that was when I knew that we

were onto something, it was a fantastic product, it had taken us so long just to find what we wanted, I just knew I was going to sell it. And so I think that was probably the turning point. Although it took a long time to generate the income we wanted, in my mind, we were already sort of there. Because I felt we'd cross the most difficult bridge, which is get good products. I have a question about, so as you're trying to build this business and establish a relationship with this factory,

I know how tough it is, this particular business in itself, the making equipment. Did they require you to have inventory and purchase all that ahead of time, or did you work it out to where you could get all these orders ahead of time and then go that route? I think if at the time I would have thought through what was actually involved, I would have never started it because we were so,

I just didn't know anything. Absolutely nothing. There was no business plan. Well, my father probably, well, not probably, my father knew a lot more about me than business, but I just had this passion that I needed to do something. It was going to be fitness and no matter what happens, I was going to get out of this place I was in and I was going to get out of this place I was in, and I was going to do it.

So once I saw that, I didn't think of anything else. Now, what you say is, was quite right. It's like, you've got to have stock. You've got to have customers, customers are going to want credit. We were literally working out of my parents' spare bedroom in a tiny little house.

My dad was working in a job. I was working in a job, in a not earning a lot of money. Also, we didn't have any money to buy stock. We didn't have any warehouse. So I remember the first order that we got. We placed the order with the company. And this huge truck, like a 40-foot trailer,

came to my parents' house. And they lived in this tiny little street with all these sort of houses on. And my mom called me up when I was in my work panicking, saying you need to come here, there's this lorry, it's blocking up our other houses and he's trying to make a delivery. And I decided to deliver it into our garage, which didn't really have any space either. And I went there and this guy with a huge truck was lowering off all these weights onto the sort of tarmac in front of our house.

So we literally, so when that arrived, I thought, okay, I'm gonna need to work out how I'm gonna get the product from the supplier to us to the customer without having a warehouse or any of those things. And we tried a bunch of things. And in the end, I just started off and I got these lawyers to deliver directly to the clubs.

And we managed to negotiate a deal with the supplier where we would pay them in 30 days and I just had to make sure that the customers paid us before we needed to pay them because we didn't have any cash flow or anything. So for quite a while, although it was quite difficult and people used to call me up saying, I've got a gym, I'm in London, there's a huge lorry, how are you going to get it off? And I was like, well, just know, just kind of, you know, unpack the palette and carry it over, you know, just sort it out.

And unfortunately, the people that started with us in the early days were very flexible and they were happy to deal with, you know, kind of like a, a substandard service really, because we just couldn't, you know, we couldn't do what was needed to do. But it was enough to sort of get us going, I guess. And so you were servicing mainly gyms in your area,

mainly in the London area? In England, yeah. We kind of focused on the whole country. And my idea was I used to go, not just put a brochure through, it was before websites. And we had facts, machines, and printed catalogs. That was when we started the business. So I used to just knock on the doors on a weekend, because was working in the day. I had to do this after hours and

in my weekend. I just send out catalogues and knock on doors and find people who were selling free weights like fitness equipment companies. One of our early customers was life fitness before they had strength machines. They had just that cardio. And so they, you know, I found out that they needed dumbbells when they were doing gym. So I kind of made some connections there. And it was just through try and error eventually I found enough people to give us some basic income to be able to leave for jobs that we were doing and start the business. When did you move out of, when were you able to start servicing out of the UK, when did that start happening?

Yeah, I took quite some time. We, the first country we went into was Poland and that was really because we, we started originally importing there and then we, when we started bringing in the weight plates and dumbbells and then we were making kind of racks for, so benches and racks that we made in Poland.

So we, we thought, well, let's thought, well, let's set up an operation there so that we can buy from the country and then we started selling into Poland, which again, at the time was quite crazy because the market was really underdeveloped, but we thought, okay, well, let's expand. So we didn't really know too much about what we were doing, but we managed to get it started.

And I would say that was probably after about, sort of, maybe five or six years. Mm-hmm. What point did you, were you making like good money? Like, was there, do you remember, was there a moment where you're like, oh, okay. I think we're doing well now. Like, it was, there was lots of little steps, you know,

there was never a moment where suddenly it was like, we've made it. I've never, I've never had one of those kind of, you read the stories, it's like you go from, you know, one day you wake up and it's like, shit, I'm successful. It was always really, really little wins, little wins, little wins. I think the first big win was that when we got the revenue, so the company I was in was this dental business and I think the best year we ever had was like, it did 100,000 and we employed, let me add like four or five people in that business. So it was a really tiny, tiny business. And it was when I think there was one month where we did the same in

a month that we did in this other business for a year and my father and I sort of had a chat and we said, you know, probably it's time to leave our day jobs and put everything into this, you know, because this is going to be more of an opportunity. I think that was probably the biggest, you know, sort of first moment where we think we're on to something here. So did you dad leave and does he work with you today? Yeah, he does. So I've got my father, although now he's sort of semi retired, he's 73. So my father's in the business. My mum used to answer the phone when we started. So, you know, I'd be at work and she'd be, oh, yeah, this is a skate fitness. How can

I help? And then she would ring me and say, oh, there's somebody called up, you know, he wants some dumbbells. And then I'd call them up back and try and make a deal in between my sort of main job. So my mum was the sort of first person. Father and I were part time. Then my sister started. She was, she was in her hair doing hair and beauty at the time. And then my other brother, he came on and then my other brother and then my brother's wife and my wife. So it started off as a real family business. There was always more family people than anyone else for a long time. Oh, that's really cool. I think one of the fears that people have when starting a business is like, I don't know enough about that to start. I don't know what I should do,

and they get paralyzed by this fear of not knowing enough and they go to learn, learn, learn, and they end up never starting anything. But what you're talking about is what I think is more common. You had kind of no idea, you had to learn as you went along, would you say that's accurate? Yeah, and I think that's the same in anything that you're doing life.

And certainly, I've interviewed a lot of Yeah, and I think that's the same in anything that you're doing life. Certainly, I've interviewed a lot of people and they always say, look, no one's going to come up to you and say, that's the right path you should be on. No one's going to do that. There's no big angel that's going to come down from heaven and say that. What I've learned, and certainly I've found a lot of people that have been successful have done, is it's like, look, just get on a horse and ride it and do the best you can. And you're probably going to get to a stage where you'll find out that it's not the right horse, but nobody's stopping you getting off it and getting on to another one. But just through the process of riding the horse to the best of your ability, you're going

to learn a lot of skills and you're gonna be in a different place to where you were originally. Even if it's in the wrong direction, you're gonna have a lot more knowledge than what you want. And eventually, you're gonna find your way through trial and error. Very success isn't a straight line, as we all know.

So I think the challenge, there's two things I think people make. One is that they just, they're paralyzed and they don't go forward. Or sort of, secondly, they're just, you know, they go on a path and they think that that's, you know, once they've done it, that's fine when they've got to stay on that track without realizing, okay, you can do that. Don't be afraid to fail. Try something else. And just keep having these sort of series of many failures. And then you'll hit on something. But, you know, it's not just about that destination,

it's about what you're gonna pick up, you know, on the way is probably more important. What attributes of yours would you say has served you the most? I like that question. I've never thought about it. I think one of the ones is, where I was probably many years ago, I've always had this fear that I didn't want to stay where I was. Not that it was a bad place, it's a beautiful place and for everyone who lives there, family is still there, it's a great place. But for me, the thought of that being my life

was more terrifying than the success of, whatever success gives me. So I was very much motivated of moving away from what I had. And that drive was so strong that it, and I'm not necessarily sure that that's the right form of motivation, because as I've got older now, I've realized you know it needs to be a little bit different. I guess you can compare it to

someone wanting to get involved in fitness. You know, they just want to lose weight so badly instead of what we spoke about earlier is being more motivated about how that the positive part of that, you know, what it can do to your life. So I think originally it was just this sort of, you know, this pain of where I was and wanting to move away from it, as I've got older, I've now started to sort of, you know, get more excited about the journey and what it's doing to me as opposed to the destination. So, I think that's probably the first one.

I think the second thing is just this real love for fitness, you know, if I didn't, if I weren't in, if I was working for someone else and it wasn't fitness, I would still, fitness and anything fitness related and making fitness things would be something I would do as a hobby. So for me, it's being passionate about what you're doing. I think that makes it so much easier than having a job or a business where you're making tons of money, but you're not really passionate about it. When I talk to people that have had a business for as long as you had and had a lot of success,

they can normally look back and point out some of the most brilliant things, whether they thought it was brilliant, then or not, that they have done that is resulted in the business today or crucial things. When you look back at the 20 years now, what are some of those things that you did that you think were either crucial or brilliant? I think one of them is the relationships that we've developed. I don't see myself necessarily as outgoing. I'm in fact, I'm quite quiet and probably totally the opposite,

but I've always been able to develop relationships and to develop trust with people. Well, people have trusted me for whatever reason I've not been able to develop relationships and to develop trust with people. People have trusted me for whatever reason. I've not been able to identify that. And so when someone trusts you, there's a responsibility to live up to that trust. So I've had a lot of times in my history where we've brought a bad product. Anyone who's dealt with Asia is going to, it's a very difficult thing to navigate and a lot of times you're bringing in products and it's not made as you, you know, as they showed you on the catalog and

you're getting, you know, you've got a ton of stuff that isn't what you expected. So there's been times through our history where we've brought product, we've sold it without knowing what it was and we've had issues. And when you're a small company and you're faced with someone who spent a huge amount of money on containers of dumbbells and products which aren't up to the standard that they should be, it's very tempted to say, well, you know, I'm really sorry, but I can't help you. You've brought it, that's what you brought, and sorry, but that's what it is. and my father and myself have had to make some really, really tough decisions that could have potentially folded the company, say, right, I can't totally fix it today, but I can give you my word that I'm going to put every single one of those things right. And so one of the things that we've been able to grow by is what they call word and mouth, but is just that we've always done a good job when things have gone wrong, we've always

stood by it because you're buying from me, you're not buying from escape, you're buying from me personally, and I'm going to bump into you or someone that, you know, a friend of a friend that's going to know me, and I think that's one of the things, probably the most important thing, I'm not necessarily talented at skilled or anything, but I think if you always sort of, you know, do the right thing, if people trust you and you can be relied upon, even if it's difficult at the time, and even if it will take you well to sort it out. And I think that's probably the most important thing

that we've done throughout our business. You've built relationships with people like life, fitness, with the Mark Maastrophs. I'm sure there's a ton more. Are there things that you attribute to that? Like are there certain practices that you put in place to foster relationships and do you have things that you try and do to keep those good relationships? I think this is a really important part of business that not a lot of people talk about.

You've kind of glazed over that a couple of times. I'm curious to, if there are certain things that you do to forge those relationships or not. Yeah, we're not business to consumer, we're business to business and so within the fitness industry there's quite a small number of important people relative to if you had a consumer product. So one of the things I did when we started it was always just to really look after and do everything you can to was always just to really look after and do everything you can to protect those relationships and to look after people. As the business gets bigger, it becomes more difficult. You can't have those connections with people.

So I guess the first thing that we realized is the people that work for us to understand those philosophies that we started the business by. So not to say the customers are always right, but always do the right thing by the customer. And sometimes, you know, your cello piece of equipment it's been abused, you know, it's been abused, but, but kind of work it out, you know, try and, you know, get some agreement with,

with the customer where it's like, okay, look, you know, this has happened, but we'll sort it out this time, but if it happens again, you know, we can't keep fixing that product because if, you know, they've't keep fixing that product because if you know They've done something stupid with it So I think that philosophy has always been in been important and now we're a lot bigger And I think one of the ways that that we're trying to do that is is through things like the podcast is is to be able to

You know keep in communication about who we are what we're about so people still feel that we're We're accessible. They understand what we're about. So people still feel that we're accessible, they understand what we're about. Because I think in this day and age, now I think things are changing, it's no longer the days where you've got these big brands, everybody, big face this brand, you don't know who's behind them. We talked about Nike earlier and their strategy was very much, you've got these key athletes that people buy into because that's the individual, but you don't really know who's into the company. I think nowadays people want to know who the company is,

who I'm spending my money with, what they're about, what their beliefs are. And, you know, taking down to a really sort of micro level, that's what I always did. You know, we used to build trust, we would share stories, we would share our vision, we would share ideas, we would listen to what people said, you know, what are you looking for? You know, what problems do you need to

be solved? And then we would go away and we would try and solve them. Nowadays we are a big company, we can't do that one on one, but through technology and things like podcasts, we can throw those questions out, we can share our ideas, if we get things wrong, we can throw those questions out. We can share our ideas. If we get things wrong, we can discuss them with thousands of people. And so I think, you know, taking those same philosophies, whether it's just me and two or three other people to where we are today, I think that's something I guess is really important. So I don't know where that answers your question. No, no, it does. And you know, something to you said was, I think it is interesting, is that you've been in business for 20 years.

So when you first started marketing and advertising was completely different to what it is today. I mean, we just, as far as maybe some of the same principles are there, but the means by which we do that, how was that evolved and changed in your business? And what was that like for you? Did you go through growing pains of, you know, being the old catalog model or telemarketing type calling up elite, cold leads to where we are now with social media and podcasting? What does that evolution been like for you? Yeah, we have. And it's funny, even now, I've just dropped a catalog on the table. We're all old though, so it's all right, works for us. But funny, through what we've done on the podcast, we've also, you know,

we've met a lot of these younger fitness entrepreneurs that are not into necessarily the traditional marketing. But when, you know, when you give them something that's, you know, nice physical, tangible product, it just creates something different. So I think, and I'm sort of going off in a few different directions, but I will answer your question. I think what we, what happened to us us is yes, we sort of, as a company, we got bigger, we focused within Europe, and we were, you know, very old-score in terms of our marketing. I think when we came to the US four or five years ago, we realized that there was these

totally new businesses that we weren't even aware of. In our world, it was the kind of life-fitnesses, the technogemes, the pre-caurs. We used to think that was a fitness industry. And then suddenly coming here, on the back of people like CrossFit and a bunch of other businesses, everything from the foods, the equipment, the training philosophies, there was this underground world which we didn't have any connection with, any relationship with, that was growing at a much quicker rate than this old world.

Even a lot of our customers that we service, they were still very much into this old world. So, certainly coming here, it's probably one of the reasons I started the podcast, is I realized, look, we need to sort of reconnect with our audience. We're connecting, we were growing 20 years old with a certain amount of people, and if we were a person, we'd probably be a little bit of an old geezer sort of thing. So now we've had to sort of think about how we can communicate to these new people and this new fitness world that's coming up both in the trainers, operators, consumers and communicating them

in a way that they wanted to communicate. So it's been a massive learning curve, but I think it's important when you've seen both sides, it's important not to necessarily throw away everything that happened in the past and just, oh, we're going all new school because there are some things that are really, really important, such as face-to-face communication. The reason I wanted to come out here and not do this, how a lot of podcasts do over a Skype is because you can't replace the face-to-face connection. You can't replace it. It's totally different.

It's the same with you've got online learning and all that stuff. It's brilliant. And it's and it's allowed people to access things in a totally new way. But there's nothing like a live event or an experience to you, you're never going to take that away. So I think you've got to be careful of, I think there's a nice balance. The old school, it's like, how can you take some of those, we're all humans as you said before, how can we take those principles but apply it to a new world and use technology to magnify it instead of forgetting about it. And that's why I still to this day, I like a catalog because it's physical, it's tangible. You flick through the page, if I came in here with a digital catalog, you wouldn't have looked at it. But just something to pick

up. So I think that's one of the things I've certainly learned. He's combining new and old worlds and OnePlus 1.0 equals three. How can you create almost like a hybrid version of marketing? How different is the, could you say you just came to the US market about four or five years ago? How different is this market from the European one? When we originally decided to come here, I think we assumed that it was going to be very similar to Europe.

Our product range, we put together, we thought was going to be similar, the types of customer, we thought was going to be similar. It wasn't, in our nose, to travel back every month, I used to come for a week to 10 days and do LA, New York, Chicago, just got around and I'll fly back to England. And I felt I got a good feel for the market, but it wasn't until I moved here about a year and a half ago that I really felt I understood the market. And I think that's one important lesson for anybody who wants to scale their business internationally. It's, yeah, you can sit in your own country and you feel that you know what other people

in the other part of the world are doing because you think you've got it right, but it's not until you go there and you live it and you breathe it that you can understand that. And we've, we went from England to Poland, Poland to Germany, Germany to Thailand, and then we came to the US. So we've traveled and we've expanded in lots of different markets around the world. And I've really spent a lot of time going, spending time with the people, living, understanding, because you have to change the market.

And I think the same thing here, the market's very different. There's a lot of different channels. It's a lot more complex than I originally thought. There's some things in Europe that they do really, really well, such as from a design perspective, it's totally different. What do you mean? How do you mean that? I think looking at both markets, I think in Europe, there's a real emphasis on the design

of things. When you say things, you mean the gem itself, the equipment itself, or the whole layout. Yeah, everything. Again, there are examples, but if you generalize, the visual experience of everything from the equipment to the aesthetics. But the aesthetics, there's a lot more of an importance on that over there than what there is here.

But that seems to be just true of most things in Europe and versus here. Yeah, I think so. Well, you've got companies like Apple, I guess, which are the exception. You know, they're probably one of the most successful companies in the world and design is really important. But in general, certainly in the fitness space,

you know, that was one of the things that I feel we had the advantage when we came here is that was one of the things that we focused on. So I think that's probably the difference, whereas what they do here probably more is it's really about the function of it. And they do a great job. But where in Europe it's probably a little bit more about the looks than the function.

Here it's more about the function. I think if you can combine those two, then you're in a good position. But I think the other thing is the marketing and technology. I think there's certainly a bit of a difference in terms of how people tend to communicate the use of social media, how acceptably it is. Doing some of the things that you can get away with here in Europe, you probably wouldn't quite get away with them in the same way. People tend to be a lot more open, there's a lot more. You tend to be, it's more normal to sort of promote about success and sort

of patting yourself on the back. Certainly in England, it's very much a case of, you probably don't want to do that. If you do that, it's not good, it's going to go against you. So you don't want to be talking about yourself and how good you're doing. And even doing something like this, I probably wouldn't have done if I was in England because it's just seen as not the right thing to do. Interesting. Now, what about equipment? Are there different trends that you see in terms of what types of equipment

gyms want here, what's popular here, versus what they find what they're having in Europe? I guess a lot of the trends tend to, so CrossFit obviously was probably a big one that came over. So I've seen much more bumper pleats and stuff like that now I'm assuming. Yeah, I think generally you see a lot of the big trends happen here first and then they cross over. There are exceptions but it seems that the big manufacturers and the big brands tend to develop a concept here

and then they go overseas and expand with it. So I would say those are probably main things. The only difference I don't see here that I see there is probably just some of these smaller spaces, particularly as you get into Europe as well, there's just a lot more focus on the visual aesthetic. And there's some beautiful gyms that you can see, even though probably the sophistication of the programming may not be quite as good, the experience is pretty cool. How do you feel about trying to move that gym experience into the home setting so you

don't have to go to the gym anymore? I've seen a lot of progress in terms of equipment that is like less invasive in your house, you know, versus like, are you just focused solely on gyms? Our business is purely gyms, trainers. We don't do anything really. There's a few products we do via Amazon into the home, but it's not a big focus. I think it's an interesting space. If you look at home fitness, certainly when we started the business, it was a really big thing. You would go to a traditional bricks and mortar retailer and you'd buy your goods,

and your treadmills, and your hand weights, and your steps. That was a big business. I think it's changed, and Amazon's probably had a big impact on changing it. So people don't go to the specialty retailer and you don't have that interaction. So it's a bit like a conversation we had earlier where it's very much about price and there's not the value there.

And I think that will change. I think if you look at what people like Palette on are doing, whether you agree with it or not, it's taking the home exercise bike and combining it with a Jane Fonda DVD and putting it together and guiding people. So I certainly think for people who want to get involved in fitness, I think there's a huge open space there. And even myself, I didn't ever think of myself as a person that would use home fitness equipment. And then I had a conversation with someone and then I looked at what I do in the week. So, you know, I do go to the gym. I love going to gyms whenever I travel. I go to them.

But there's a lot of time if I'm working from home or the office, I don't have time to do that. So I'll go home at lunchtime and I've got some kettlebells and a Bulgarian bag and some squat stands. And I'm kind of doing a home workout. And so I think there's a lot of people in that position that work from home now. So I think there's a big opportunity in that space and I don't know anybody that's really servicing that well at the moment. So certainly that's a great business opportunity for someone to take. I can imagine that what you do is a relatively competitive space, right? I can imagine there's people like you who are middleman

for these companies to provide. How do you outcompete them? Like what separates you? How are you able to do better than them to get like the Mark Maastroffs to say, I want you to outfit my gym versus, I'm pretty sure he's got connections with lots of other. Well, I'll tell you right now,

just by looking at your catalog, I'm not familiar with too many companies that offer all the things that you do. It seems like pre-core or life, they tend to specialize. In an area, you seem to have everything. Is that one of the things that separates? I'm curious. Yeah, it's within a genre, it's very much sort of functional training based where you know, someone who's doing a group circuit class or a personal training would use those

types of training tools, so we don't get involved in machines or cardio equipment or anything like that. But the challenge with that is it's a very low barrier to entry. So anybody today can go onto Alibaba and they can find, you know, most of the tools that are in that catalog or copies of that. So that's the challenge and it's a good question. How do you continue to grow? I guess we're probably one of the bigger companies in that space. There's a few things that have always been important to us. I think they apply to any business.

Number one is innovation. That's really important. You've got to innovate your marketing, you've got to innovate the way you communicate to your customers and you've got to innovate your products and solutions. So one of the things I've always been keen to do is to see what's happening, to talk to customers as we spoke about earlier and to make sure that we're always innovating. Now, the challenge with innovation is you can be too far ahead of the curve, which we have been. People of trainers abroad says he's great ideas and when they take you on a workout, you

think that's bloody amazing. But this guy's been working with the product for 15 years and it takes him an hour to explain it. And when he has done it, you pick it up. So the problem is you develop that product, you stick it in a catalog and then people look at it and like, what's the hell, what the hell is that? You know, it's so far ahead of people's understanding that it's never going to catch on. Or if it does it, it'll probably take 10 to 15 years to do. And we've had products that have taken 10

years to take off. And then suddenly when the market's ready, you, you know, it just, it just, it's crazy. Can you give me an example? Yeah, so we've got a product called the Deck. We originally partnered up with Reebok many years ago and it was developed at Loughborough University. It's in the catalog there and it's just a simple bench, like a step bench, where you could do hit training. Now, this was, I think it's about 10 to 12 years that this was developed before hit training was a thing. And I remember these guys came, they did us the demonstration and I just thought this is amazing.

The problem was the clubs at that time weren't ready to do that type of hit workout. They were doing step and other things. We were trying to sell it, we put a ton of money into it, we did all the trade shows, years and years and years, nothing, absolutely nothing. Then we brought the product, we rebranded it, brought it to a show in the US, and just for whatever reason the market was ready, and it just hit, and we sold, we went from almost like, you know, selling a few hundred to selling thousands of these units, and clubs wanted air, consumers wanted it, and that's an example. And there's a bunch of others like that. But sometimes you, as much as it's a good idea and it makes logical sense,

the market has to be ready to listen. Or you've got to have a ton of money to be able to educate the market. So there's a really fine balance in terms of innovation. You've got to just be slightly ahead of the curve. And now my experience is if someone else can go and create a path and probably fail, but a bit of putting that money first, then you can come just a little bit after them with a, you know, you've looked at where they've made a mistake and jump in, you know, that's probably a better model than being the first person. I'd even think so. So a part of what you do is also finding new innovative type equipment and trying to find and create a market for it.

Yeah, yeah. So, I think innovation is number one. But that alone isn't enough. There's a lot of innovative companies. I think the second thing is we've always considered the design, the aesthetic. We all like anything beautiful, whether it's a car, women, I'm just, I'm being sort of quite, you know, male here, but, you know, even, I'm sure there's beautiful guys out there, but, you know, anything beautiful catches your attention.

And, you know, that, whether it's marketing or whatever, the first thing you need to do is catch people's attention. So, you know, you can have a dumbbell or you can have, like, we have these tires that, you know, there's loads of people doing tire flipping. They've been doing it for years But we we came up with the tire and it was soft. It was foam and it was we had red green blue tires

And suddenly they got people's attention So you know someone like my mum went into a gym and and now a really important exercise like a deadlift or a farmer's walk Or a sort of you know carrying squat, which is a quite an important movement for her. Now, she's not intimidated to go and pick that up because it's colourful and she doesn't know what it is and it's not intimidated. It makes a big difference. People don't realise how big of a difference that makes. Yeah, and so for us, it was like, well, try and make, you know, we're not all of us around here could go out in the car park and we'll pick up,

you know, like that dumbbell I see out there, which is wrapped in tape and a couple of of old rusty bars and we're going to have a great work out and we would really enjoy it but we're not where we're focusing, you know, we're trying to, you know, tap into those people, they're probably not confident in doing it and in order to get their attention you've got to make things look interesting. So, so for us design is really really important and making stuff look non-intemidating to people. So that's probably the second thing. And the other thing is about your service and your relationships. You've got to make sure as a business, you're doing the right thing. Your service is great. If something goes wrong, you sort it out. So I guess those are a few of the things that we've tried.

There's a lot of brilliance in what you just said right now as far as, and I know it definitely hits home for Justin who's played the inventing game himself. And the importance of innovating and creating, but just ahead of the curve and not so far ahead that you have to spend creating a whole new category. Right. To where you have to spend so much money and time educating. What are some of their examples of equipment or things that you guys have seen and going like brilliant, great idea, change color, change the way the shape,

change something like that, and then it's taking off or done well for you. There are other pieces of equipment that you've looked at that you guys have redesigned or brought to market just a little bit different way, and it's done better for you guys? Well, in our early, when we started the company, that's probably the best example. So when we started the business, we were selling these multi-plate dumbbells.

You know, the ones that used to have a screw, I'm sure you've all worked out on them that they have a screw and then you know, you drop them and they kind of come loose and they're all clanky and that sort of stuff. So one of the things that sort of took our business forward was that that was what the market was like. And we thought, well, every order of the gyms have dumbbells. Everybody's kind of going for this same look.

And we just did something simple. We added a bit of design, so we hired a designer who kind of changed the shape a little bit. And we came up with this pattern, which was to create this end plate that went onto it where you could change the color, you could put different designs onto it.

So we've still got the patterns of this day. And you screw it together and it stops ahead coming undone and it's a single piece construction. And we just added some colors. So we had red, gray, blues, blacks, we had these different colors. At the time, although many people have done it now, because it's not difficult to copy, at the time, it totally transformed the market. Going back probably 10 or 15 years, if you went anywhere in England, you would kind

of see our dumbbells everywhere. How long has a dumbbell been around? How can you innovate with a dumbbell? If you really think about it, there are ways to do it. And in our earlier conversation that we had about, you know, trying to communicate to a different audience, you know, our idea was like, let's, you know, freeway strength training is really important. And when we were involved in this, it was when there was a big, you know, cardio was the big thing. You know, people weren't strength training. It was pre-crossfit. And so our belief was like, you know, you need to be using dumbbells. Get some kind of strength training, it's a great way to work out, but the people that need tonight the most and not the ones that are picking up.

We just added, we've had some red dumbbells. We came up with this funky end plate and it just took off and it sold. I remember when, because I've been working out for a long time and weights were all, you know, the iron ones with this lip around the edge and then all of a sudden they introduced the plates with the handle. Just, it's a weight. It's the same thing, just the handle. Now you go to a gym and all gyms have, you know, weights with the handles. Somebody did the same thing, something real small, small change and it took something that,

you know, that we kind of took for granted and sold a whole bunch more. It was really, really crazy. Are there, is there anything that any, any equipment now that's getting you kind of excited that's new that you see that you're like, Oh, this might be something, something crazy? I think that the, the where we've got to as a business and it, you know, all depends on kind of where you are in your business cycle.

You know, there's, we've, we've been depends on kind of where you are in your business cycle. There's, we've been through the phase of, there's always a new product and the challenge with that is that you've kind of got to bring, you've got to do something that everybody's doing and then it becomes a race at the bottom. You've got to do something that nobody else is doing, get really good protection around it. So take out patents and protect it which costs a ton of money. And then you've got to potentially create a market. So that ton of money in terms of marketing and then you sell it.

That's a difficult and slow burn. And then what happens if it's a really good idea and you're selling a lot, somebody's going to just look at making a few tweaks and then they're going to come around and they'll probably bring the price down. So I think now as a business, it's really saying, okay, well, you know, what's the purpose of that tool? How can I help you, the trainer, the club, the individual, how can I help you, you know, turn that into something that's valuable?

So for us now, really, our business is the content, because we've got a ton of awesome products that people don't fully understand how to use, how to get the most out of. So although we are continuing, because we love it, continuing to come out with some really nice, exciting, sexy products, there's a lot more of an emphasis on the material, how to use it. I guess the education component, which is also not as easy to go out to China and send it to a factory and say, can you copy that?

It's more difficult. It takes a lot of time. It's quite expensive. I think anybody in business, you've got to, as you get bigger, you've got to round out your business model enough so that it's quite difficult for people to imitate you and just compete with you on price. Because if it's just on price, it's gonna be a race at the bottom

and there's always somebody else that's gonna be able to beat you on that. So are you actively going around kind of looking for these new trends, these new types of equipment that are kind of emerging, or are people coming to you and kind of pitching you these ideas? Like how's that working? There's a bit of both. Like probably every week we'll get, you know, one or two ideas. Majority of them, you know, they need so much work to get them to somewhere. You know,

there's no shortage of great ideas. The difficulty is to, you know, to implement, to create and execute that idea well. There's thousands of really cool ideas. Every single one of them, you could say if you put enough time and energy, you could make those to become the next, whatever, the next big thing, but is it really, really worth doing it? We're always looking for ideas. Every now and again, you get them. From my perspective, now, the simplest ones are the better. You know somebody came to us with

this kind of interesting sled concept a few weeks ago and we showed it to everyone and everyone a lot of a lot of our guys looked at and says well there's what's so special about that and it was what it was a tiny little thing that you wouldn't have noticed but it allowed you to do something a little bit different and I guess the genius about that thing was it was what it was a tiny little thing that you wouldn't notice, but it allowed you to do something a little bit different. And I guess the genius about that thing was it was so simple that whenever if we brought one in here now, you guys would instantly sort of get what you could do on that simple and anything else. So being able for people to pick it up and say, yeah, I like it. It's a small feature. And I want that feature because I haven't got it on mind, but without having to spend ages executing. And I say,

communicating. And we spoke about that earlier as well in the other podcast is, you know, sometimes you got to make things very simple for people to get and understand. If it's too complicated, it's not going to work. 100%. Well, when we were off air, we were talking about our company and how it's evolved and changed like where our energy and focus, I mean, we're a digital media company. When we first started, the podcast was the top of the funnel.

Most all of our energy and focus was around collaborating with other podcasts. That's evolved and changed. I'd say more of our focus now is on content creation and we're always trying to put out new and more content. When you look at your business today, where it's now scaled and evolved to and all the different moving parts that you have, where would you say most of your energy

is focused at? Yeah, mind personally, and this is a bit of a strange sort of answer to say, but one of the things I spend a lot of time doing is talking to people like yourself. When we have these discussions around our board meetings, why are we spending so much time? We've got a big company. Is that really the best use of your time as an owner of a company?

I suppose it's a bit of a shift, and that's probably why not everybody's quite doing it yet, but there's a number of things that happen. The first thing is that you're talking to your existing customers about where you are, what you're doing. So you've got that kind of dialogue going. The second thing is that you're learning a lot from different people, from what's going on in the market. You're staying up to date and relevant with things.

And I think the challenge is, if you're a CEO, president, head of a company, the challenge is that you can become quite insular, so your world is just at the top of the company and the information you get is from some journals or maybe your Instagram and you don't get out much. And if you do get out much, maybe it's once a month that a few trade shows. I'm talking to somebody every single week, you know, in some weeks, it's two or three times a week. So the information that I'm getting is current, it's live and it allows us to, you know, as a business to make some really, really good decisions about, you know, where people as minds are, you can test ideas, you can get feedback from your community.

So I think now probably the most important thing for me to do is heading a company, is just to be out there, one, sharing what we're doing as a business, and two, understanding what's happening in the market so that we can provide really useful, relevant solutions for people in the market place. You talked about like you're a big majority of the company when you first started was family. And I have some of my family that works for our company. And one of the great things about that

is typically you can trust family with your money and your business and hope that they're going to care because they love and care you. I'm sure that's probably some of the things that you could agree with. But what are some of the things that you have found challenging about working with family? Yeah. Yeah, for anyone who's got family business will probably know, you know, it is very difficult.

And there's a really, really fine line that you tread all the time. And the good thing is that we've always been a strong and close family, which I think is the reason why we've been able to make it work. And certainly, if you can get it right, the benefits are huge, because as you say, you can trust them. You've got shared vision. You're going to outwork anybody else, if it's a huge because as you say, you can trust them. You've got shared vision. You're gonna outwork anybody else because you're either family. But then you've also, families are just like

sort of a bunch of friends. You've got different views and outlooks and ideas. And so I think it's a little bit like a marriage. You've got to constantly communicate and work on those, you've got to work on that vision all the time. And it's probably harder than having people that are not family because when they're family, one thing is you automatically fall into that family hierarchy.

So you've got big brother, younger brother, father. So those sort of relationships, even though you don't plan on it, they pull over into the business. Because if your mom messes up, you can't be like, mom, you're fired, I say, go to your room. Exactly. So you've got that. And also some of the sort of behaviors are very similar to when you're in your family. So the father takes on the father role at certain situations. And so it sometimes it can be difficult to have those type of conversations, probably what you guys have, because none of you necessarily the father.

But if one of your fathers was in here, he would want to take that father role. Sure. Look, son, no matter how old you here, he would want to take that father old son, no matter how old you are. And I'd probably do the same with my son. It's very difficult to separate the two. But I think it's just, certainly when we grew it, it's very much me and my father. And we spent a lot of time working together.

And we used to have some huge arguments. But we were always able to sort of go you know, go to bed, wake up and extend, just almost as though nothing had happened and just get on with it. You know, now I've got sort of younger brothers and sisters and husbands and wives, they don't always understand it, you know, they don't understand how you can just have these massive rower and almost like beer, you know, almost be holding a knife at someone's throat, and then something the next day you're all happy and you forgot about it. They're like, what's happened? So as you get bigger, and also when you get other people in the business,

you know, you can have these arguments, but then when you've got other employees and they're in the meeting, they're like, you know, this is a bit weird, you know. But the receptionist is yelling at the CEO. But you, I think the reason is is because you're very, you're passionate about it. And because you're part, the family is, you know, you're passionate about it and because you're part of the family is you're not afraid to say anything. There's not necessarily any boundaries. You say stuff, but I think you understand that you don't really mean it and those are the challenges that you have.

Certainly, we wouldn't be where we were today if it wasn't for that. We wouldn't have been able to do what we would have done today with that family. And I'm sure other people that have friends in business probably say the same thing. I've just only really known a family business and I've just dealt with that. Now, your business brings in revenues and the tens of, you know, multiple tens of millions. What was the hardest, I guess, growth period? Was it the zero to a million, the five to 10? Like where did you find the hardest,

the most difficult growth periods within the business? Because I hear all the time about how it's harder to go from this point to this point than it is from here to here, but I don't know how true that is. I think they've all been difficult. We've gone up over the 20 year period. We've gone up and grown. We've come down massively when the market changed and we didn't anticipate the change.

And we've had to sort of restructure and refocus. And we've gone up again. So I think we've had two big growth drops, growth drops. That's happened twice. And I think as you go forward, you've got this zigzag. And every level that you get to, there's new lessons that you learn. You know, we started off as a family and then we get employees and then you've got to think about, you know, working with other people outside the family. And then

we started to go into different countries. So now we've got four direct offices in, you know, UK, Germany, Thailand, United States. So how do you communicate and create culture and shared visions when you've got all these people around the world? One part of the world wakes up eight hours before the other and the other people are eight hours after them. So there's a potentially 16-hour time difference. How do you create that energy, that single vision, that sort of effectiveness in all those markets?

I think every place you go to, there's different challenges. I always used to think that it reminds me to when I started working out years ago. I think I was probably like 16 or 17. I always used to think that there would be a day that would come where I had that body that I wanted and I didn't need to go to the gym.

In my mind, I used to just think, I'd reach that place and then it was all done. And I still remember going around this roundabout, I can picture it today in my car, thinking, shit, that's not ever gonna happen. And the only way I'm gonna get it is I'm gonna have to keep working out all the time. And I was like, okay, I need to sort of get my head around this.

And it's the same in business. I think in business, you sort of think that one day you're gonna get into the office and it's just gonna be theirs. It's all done and you don't have to work. When in reality, it's never, ever gonna stop unless you sell out and you decide something else. And so I think you've just got to be very open to,

you know, you've got to be open to new challenges. You've got to be open to change and you've got to enjoy that. Because otherwise it's going to be, it's going to be very difficult to continue long-term. Excellent. Any thoughts on selling or what are like long-term goals for the company? Are you structuring it in a way with the intentions of selling it off one day or would you like to keep it in the family and keep it going? What are your thoughts? You can never say never. You know, someone came with a big fat check, you know, it's going

to be tempting. But I think even, even if it was a big fat check, I, I, you know, certainly, certainly wouldn't mind some of that. But I would always want to be, I wouldn't want to just go, you know, get out and go and sit on a beach and not see something. Still want to be a part of it. I'd want to be in a key position in something that we're doing. It would be great that if somebody came along and gave us the opportunity to do some of the things that we've been dreaming about.

Because nobody will totally self-finance, We've got no investment partners or anything. And that's difficult to grow a business with your own money as you probably know. So there's a lot of great ideas that we'd like to invest in this and invest in that. But because you've got to balance your day-to-day cash flow and your natural growth, you've got to be careful. So I think if we were to do that, it would probably be to get

someone that allows us to do some bigger and better things that we probably couldn't do on our own. Excellent. Well Matt, it's been great talking to you man. Yeah. Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on the show and meeting with us. Thank you very much. Yeah, definitely. Maybe afterwards we could walk around our little gym here and you could show us some we could win her ideas. Yeah, sure.

Absolutely. Thank you very much. Thank you guys. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbumble at Mind Pump Media.com. The RGB Superbumble includes maps and a ballad, maps performance and maps aesthetic.

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