Miss Me? - Men Ah Pause

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

Lily Allen and Miquita Oliver discuss the new UK government, sex work and discovering self-pleasure. Credits: Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Production Coordinator: Hannah Bennett Executive Producers: Dino Sofos and Ellie Clifford Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. on Rogers Internet. Visit rogers.com for details. We got you. Rogers. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This week's episode of Miss Me contains some very strong language, some very adult themes and lots of stuff in between.

So just listen out for those things if you are easily offended I'm in Italy I'm in a lovely house that I've rented near the town city of Siena, which is in Tuscany. And it's absolutely glorious. The weather is beautiful. The food is delicious. The company is great. I cannot complain. And I went to a vintage shop yesterday that I got some sick purchases at. No, fuck off. Italy vintage shopping must be on a next level. Oh my god, I got like an old Jill Sander

Raf Simons era jacket. No! It's the best thing I've ever seen in my life. Okay. Do you want me to get it for you and just show you? No, send me a picture later. I'm sitting here in the rain, Lily. Send me a picture later. Okay, okay. I think lounging in the sunshine in Italy has just done wonders.

You're glowing. Thanks so much. Can I say that I got a little jealous this week? I don't think I love when you go on holiday with other friends. Oh. That isn't me. I know what you mean. I was like, all right, well, I'm having a good time.

And I was like, well, not too much of a good time. How much of a good time are you having, I'm having a good time. And I was like, well, not too much of a good time. How much of a good time are you having? I'm having a really good time. This is the interesting thing, because this is the second leg of your Italian tour over the summer. And this is with friends and not husband. And I always feel like when you share a house with other couples, even though they're your best mates,

and yes, you see their life on Instagram, but that's when you really start to see how the dynamics between your friends in their relationships. I find it fascinating, actually. Yeah, well, you know, everyone's great. I'm really happy here. Everyone's children are charming.

Oh, come on, you can't. No, I'm joking. Everyone's, it's actually, I'm having a really nice time. I am having a really nice time. How many kids, how many adults? There's four kids, five grownups. Lovely.

And my kids are not here. They're with their dad in Wales, Shropshire borders. And yeah, this is sort of my little, the last, it's not really the last leg because I'm going, coming back from Italy and going to... What's next? London again for a few days. And then I take my kids to summer camp in Massachusetts and oh and

then I'm going to San Diego with my husband and I'm going to LA to do some work and then I'm going back to Massachusetts to camp for the weekend at my kids camp which I'm not looking forward to you're joining camp that's like the two days I'm having such a nice summer but there's these two nights that are like staring at me from a month and a half away i kind of feel like you deserve it after all these beautiful i know what you mean i know what you mean but me and a blow-up mattress new thank you wow so can the um sort of 16th century farmhouse you seem to be in today i think i'll have to like get involved with sort of activities and things and I'm just really not

looking forward to it. Oh my God. Treat it like you're in the parent trap and just like really get involved for those two days. Do you know I tried out for the parent trap?

Was you in the film? The Lindsay Lohan version, yeah. I went for an audition for that. Oh, I would have been so fucked up if you'd gone back. Imagine if I'd had Lindsay Lohhan's career

as a result of being in the parent trap yes all life you know how it would have ended up well what a life you're having probably similar to how it is now it wouldn't be that different no i'm happy that you're summering let's not forget how many summers for your whole life you've worked so this is lovely if you were in lond London living what we're all living, you would probably feel as kind of... Yeah, everyone says it's miserable, rainy, grim. It's getting really like, we can't talk about it anymore. So it's like this dark, dirty secret that no one wants to discuss. The weather.

It's been a week of winning. Labour Party won. I think Lewis Hamilton won something. England won. And that was actually a really beautiful game of football. Don't worry, I won't bore you with the details. No, I actually watched it. Because one of the kids that I'm on holiday with is a football obsessive.

And he was sitting on my side of the table when we went out for dinner at a restaurant. And it was quite a posh restaurant. And we were really excited. And we were like shouting, you know, little moments of joy when we scored goals. And everyone else in the restaurant hated us. Of course. I felt very like, let's enjoy. It was quite fun.

I told you if we started winning, I'd get involved. You said by the semis you'd be invested. So welcome. Welcome to the Euros now, Lily. I might even buy a shirt when I touch down in London town. So I'd like to talk about our new government. OK. Someone said to me there is the potential for positivity and hope.

So not actually positivity and hope, but the potential for positivity and hope. So not actually positivity and hope, but the potential for positivity and hope. So I thought, okay, so people are almost starting to feel something, maybe dant too. Well, it's quite a lot of new energy. Did you listen to that podcast I told you to listen to, The Rest Is Politics, where Angela Rayner was on

and she talked all about her upbringing and how she was a carer for her mom from the age of 16 she didn't finish school she had her kids very young she was a grandmother like in her early 30s i think and she has come up against some like true hardships and has made her way to you know the second most powerful position in government in such a relatively short period of time and it's fucking impressive and she said something about like oh i sort of had an opportunity and there was just one opportunity where i was able to create real change but like nothing else yet and i was like oh she's hungry and that is her intent her intent is to create change she took a fucking kicking yeah she was on the front

covers of every paper nationally for what seemed like weeks because of the some tax issues around her second property and she was cleared by hmrc and the greater manchester police i believe it takes a strong person of any gender to survive that kind of vitriol and she's a woman and a relatively young woman. How do you think the press will be with her now that she has all this power? Do you think they'll just come for her harder? Of course. But she doesn't strike me as someone who gives a shit.

Shall I read you some stats? Diane Abbott is the first black mother. Mother of the house. Female mother of the house. David Lumme is the foreign secretary. He's in the cabinet. This is quite interesting it is the most state school educated cabinet in history 84 percent of the cabinet went to state

schools and only two ministers went to private school and this means that for the first time the cabinet closely reflects british society yeah also i think it would be interesting because there's been such a focus and i suppose suppose, curiosity, and concern about, you know, things like free school meals. And I feel like if there are people who genuinely have that life experience, and have lived in that way, they'll have a completely different kind of approach to things like that. So private schools have, up to this point, been VAT exempt, and now they are not going to be VAT exempt so that money will be funneled back into the state education system which I have no view on because I am a BBC pundit. More people in the cabinet who were born in the northeast than going to Eton. However ethnic representation has fallen. Record 89 minority ethnic MPs were elected to Parliament overall.

However, David Lammy, the Foreign Secretary, will be the only black cabinet minister in Starmer's government. Is it only, so it's only one? I thought it was two. Wow. OK. I think what people feel is change. And I think change is a number of things. Terrifying, exciting, hopeful and discom... What's it called? Dis discomfort what's called discombobulating discombobulating but my mum always said to me she when i used to say i'm really worried about this i'm really worried about that she said we're not using that word anymore we're now going to say

curious i'm really interested to see what happens do you know what's crazy it's just crazy to think that there's a new government after 14 years that just feels kind of like fresh in some way like just change in that way just feels like oh been quite an interesting week the first week of labor actually but they're very much looking like they're doing all the things they said they would do but you know that's first week i reckon six months until the tide turns and people start hating them it's like a first date right like this week has been like them showing us their like you know most attractive side and like all their best perfume and like so you know look like they did in their picture but who knows what they'll be like by you know the end of the month when they've worn the same underwear for a couple days in a row farted in bed yeah let's see what they're

farting in bed let's see what happens when we're at that stage what an incredible metaphor for today's government how's it going over at uh foot towers foot hq everything going all right? Foot HQ. How is it going? I mean, it is going very well. Let's just keep it brief. Go on. What you got this time? I don't know if we can because it is quite a, it's been like a real eye-opener. Obviously, like, after our podcast last week,

it had been, like, quite widely reported about me and my foray into content creating feet content and i've had you know a lot of disparaging you know horrible messages in my dms well i've seen both no but i'm talking like really personal nasty what kind of stuff you're disgusting you should be ashamed of yourself aren't you embarrassed your children are gonna see this blah blah blah it seems to me what i'm taking from these mainly men is that women should only really be selling images of herself or access to her body when it is an absolute last resort like she's you know like losing her home or been fired from her job or can't put food on her table. Like it should be a sort of act of desperation

rather than an honest way to make a living. I think it's like a socioeconomic issue in a lot of ways. The fact that I'm making money from this podcast and that I'm in a relationship, which by the way, you know, a relationship where my husband happens to support the choices that I make. I have kids means that I shouldn't, you know, be stooping so low as to be, you know, profiting from my own body. Right. But also that I think there's also it comes with this sort of wave of autonomy, which I think makes people feel uncomfortable because it is it's all you you're doing it and the reward is coming back to you and there is no

other person in charge i think that's it and i think that first of all i have to like you know i've had like quite a lot of people that work in this industry from people that you know make foot content to people on the complete other end of the spectrum of like sex work, right? And everything in between. And I think first of all, I have to state my position of privilege, right? I feel completely comfortable and uncompromised in taking pictures of my feet and putting them up on this website and charging people for the pleasure of being able to look at them. But I'm also fully aware that I can walk away from that at any moment when it becomes not so cute or not so fun. A lot of people are not able to do that.

It's their only source of income. And they are marginalized within society because of it. I actually put up a picture of my feet in Rome with the Trevi Fountain in the background and linked it to my foot page. And I was slapped by Instagram with a solicitation notice and it was taken down. And I went and looked at the sort of T's and C's of what was, you know, allowed and what wasn't. And I thought, actually, this doesn't infringe on any of those.

Could someone in theory send a link to their, I don know etsy page or their ebay page or their absolutely but because it links to this particular website which is associated with adult entertainment or you know sex work i think there's an automatic you know take it down anyway however i contested it and it got put back up again but i think i am very much in the minority i think most of these women are marginalized. They have very little power in the world and their accounts are deleted, you know, like they are not able to advertise anywhere. So I think that you're right. It's an issue of the woman profiting from it herself, because let's be honest, there are women on Instagram posing in bikinis, posing in their underwear, pouting for the camera, puppy eyes and as long as their link or whatever they're selling has a sort of middleman so if it's like a single that they're promoting

or a link to a fashion retailer or you know my tour's just gone on sale that's fine that's okay as soon as that money is coming directly into that person's bank account for that content, there's an issue. We're not having that. We're not having that. And I think that I think that that is wrong. It's interesting how much it's it's very interesting how much it's riled people up. Truly. I was quite surprised. I mean, listen, it's like sex is a commodity, right? It is a resource. Men need to have access to women's bodies not only just for their gratification but because you know continuation of our species depends on it and i think that ultimately women could actually be more powerful than men if they were allowed to monetize access

to their own bodies without fear without shame without it being so dangerous why are we making it so hard for women to profit over something that could put them ahead it's interesting that you say that because we are all in the same game every day anyway on instagram exactly and it's just got a different coat on and i think maybe it's like linked to what we were talking about in our virginity episode it's like why is there so much shame around women and virtue and purity yeah is it all because there's just this huge conspiracy to stop women from being able to profit from her body which is something that you know a lot of men in the world want free access to or they want to be able to oppress

do you know what i mean it's nice to have autonomy in your sex life yes it's actually very important to have autonomy in your sex life yes and even and in your sex life. Yes, it's actually very important to have autonomy in your sex life. Yes, and even in your sex business, but let's not call it a sex business. Are you talking back to me, about me being a sex worker? I actually don't mind. I did think that I was kind of uncomfortable with people referring to it

as coming under that umbrella, but I think that's part of the patriarchal shame associated with it. Fuck it. Yes, absolutely. And I think it also leads into me, because I told you I wanted to talk about masturbation today, and I thought to myself, oh, I'm a bit embarrassed to talk about that. And I thought I told you I want to talk about masturbation today and I thought to myself oh I'm a bit embarrassed to talk about that and I thought

why am I embarrassed to talk about that when I have grown up with men talking really loudly and really overtly about wanking and that being part of their life and a kind of rite of passage and something to be really vocal about and proud of actually and it's kind of part of your identity when you're a young teenage boy but for me it was shrouded in um secrecy and disgust you know that i never even wanted to do it until you bought me a vibrator yeah thanks for liberating me my pleasure and um i was asking some people today about like the ages that they started masturbating and there seems to be two camps there seems to be like a camp of people who accidentally stumbled upon being able to pleasure themselves it's sort of like 9 10 11 and then the other group of people I'm talking to sort of

people that discovered it in their teens or their 20s I didn't start masturbating until I was in my 30s till you got me the vibrator I actually got it for me in my 20s and I was terrified of it for about five years no we were in our 30s I started in my 30s too I started no after I'd had kids but you were like 29 oh okay right like after Dan no after I started when I was with Sam sorry oh yes sorry I started in my marriage because of him it was just like I was on a path of sexual liberation and discovery. But how do you feel talking about that? And I was on tour. That was it. It was because I went away on tour.

It was after I'd had Marnie and I was on tour for long periods of time and I was horny as fuck. But also you had a past of not having an orgasm for such a long time or till you were later in life so I feel like you and I were a bit more like I didn't I had an orgasm when I was young early in my first relationship but you didn't for a long time so I was quite surprised that you were so open to the world of pleasuring yourself because I thought that whole world just freaked you out no I mean when I started coming I was like hello everyone I need we need to talk about this everyone needs to be doing this all the time all the time everyone was like no we know about it well yeah it's that

famous it's that saying who was it was like why would you have sex when you can do the real thing on your own yes that is a that is a dangerous sentence is it what interesting you use danger why because because propagation of the species needs to stay um intact what was that film called there was a film and actually maybe even a tv show with michael sheen called masters of sex or something i know masters of sex was about that professor who did like a sort of investigation into people's sexual habits in the 50s this is a great professor he decided like in the 50s to ask people really honest conversations about the way they have sex and sexual pleasure and it was like groundbreaking but then there was also another film that's about

uh what doctors did to women to stop them masturbating in like the sort of the what doctors did to women to stop them masturbating in like the sort of the 1800s or something. It was very much seen as something that was, you know, almost a despicable habit for women. I think that they like only started doing like proper scientific studies on clitoral pleasure, like relatively recently, like in the late 70s or 80s, like really...

I thought you were going to say like noughties.ies no but i mean like like when you yeah since the beginnings of time so it's so that means in the 70s we weren't allowed to have a mortgage without a husband and a man signing and we weren't allowed to masturbate and have any female pleasure that was quite recent yeah why would you have sex when you could do the real thing that's why i started because i was seeing that arsehole and i was like i just need to go see him and you're like why do you need to see him and i was like just really quickly just need to go see him and you were like do you just want to have sex with him i was like yes i just need to have sex with him and you were like use that thing i got you and the minute you realize that you don't need him for that you

will never see him again and i did it and it worked and i never saw him again i was like oh do not need you anymore goodbye goodbye and it actually do you know what it actually set off voluntary celibacy for a few years i was like i don't want to have sex i just want to focus on my career how can i do that oh yeah i've got this thing i actually saw julia fox talking about voluntary celibacy is that what do we call it it's very interesting because i think but there's like a wave like a movement of girls in america young women who are taking a of like an oath of celibacy in reaction to roe versus wade not being um reinstated and so they're like, okay. Wow.

You don't want to give us our reproductive rights. We're not having sex with you. Whoa. That's powerful shit. Very powerful. It is very powerful. Have you ever done it? Huh?

Involuntary celibacy. Sorry, voluntary celibacy. Involuntary celibacy. Yeah, I've definitely done some involuntary celibacy. I called it a dry patch, though. No. But it was really interesting. I watched a documentary about this woman who was the first black female model agent and turned into sort of a behemoth of the industry in New York from the 70s onwards. And she did it for 10 years while she built her business. Wow. I thought, oh God, that's quite a commitment. But it's something very interesting happens when you take sex out of your life because you want to.

And everything becomes kind of laser focused. You realize how much sex and just the games of sex, whether you're having sex or sort of having sex or flirting or dating, all those things. They just they take up time and energy. And if you really want to focus on something else, it really works. It really does work. But I'm over that now. I've done that. How long has it been? All right. let's have a break billy allen i'll see you in a minute

go back to school with rogers and get canada's fastest and most reliable internet perfect for streaming lectures all day or binging TV shows all night. Save up to $20 per month on Rogers Internet. Visit rogers.com for details. We got you. Rogers. I was working with my mother a lot this week.

God, we had the worst fight of all time yesterday. I had to do that thing where you have to literally drag the love from the bottom of your feet out to the top of your mouth and apologise. The reason I had to apologise... No, because I love my mum and I'm trying to be a better human being, but the second reason I apologised is because we had a lot of work together this week

and I was like, this just isn't going to work if, as she said, she couldn't stand to be anywhere near me. That's what she said to me. That's what she said to me, Lil. But so I sputtered her up today. Sorry, mum. I love you and I meant every word. But one of the jobs we were interviewing, one of the work days,

we were interviewing Adjua Ando, who plays Lady Danbury in Bridgerton. Yeah. What a woman. She is 61. She's the same age as my mother. And they are both from the countryside outside of towns in England, growing up as the only black person in their area in the 70s. And they both discovered punk and it changed their lives. So they were just having a great time.

But they were also talking about the marginalization of women over 50 over 50 and all that's 10 years away lily 10 years that's gonna go so quick and it's gonna go like that and i doubt we'll feel much different yeah we will because we'll be on hrc oh god is there any way that menopause happens after is it definitely like does it ever happen at 60 or is it like between like 45 and 60 you're asking the wrong person i do know that i started googling hrt last night because somebody that i know is on it and they said it's a real game changer is it someone that you know that's our age no a bit older not that much older yeah because i mean maybe i have a different fear because i haven't had kids yet but it is starting to trickle into my thoughts quite a lot thinking like okay so like what like four years maybe five maybe less feel right um maybe less apparently it can be

dangerous to start taking hrt when you're over 60s if you are gonna go that route then you want to start doing it sooner rather than later i've already ordered mine can we not can we just not like i'm trying to have like a real like summer of sex and love i don't really want to talk about my hrt plans hang on you can have the menopause and still be having sex yes absolutely and you can also fall in love. But I do want to have a baby. So that needs to be in the next sort of three or four years. God, that's so intensely soon. But we do know a lot more now. My poor parents, my mother, and Nana, Auntie Nana, Tessa, blind. Blind.

And my grandma states that she doesn't believe the menopause exists. She thinks it's a state of mind. State of mind. Mind over matter. I was like, Nana, you can't mind over the menopause. She's like's a state of mind state of mind mind over matter i was like nanny you can't mind over the menopause she's like yes so they were just all clueless and of course we now have this um incredible environment with people like davina mccall yes davina making television shows and radio shows and documentaries and constantly telling people more and more which is just like we just never had that before so do you feel like you know quite a lot about what to expect when you're not expecting um i don't actually i sort of like zone out it's one of those things where it's just like no no no not for me

not for me not for me does allison talk to you yeah she's you know got the goods i don't know if you're allowed to like talk about people being on HRT yeah okay my mum's on HRT it's fine my mum's proud of it my mum's really proud of her HRT she never shuts up about it because it's I think at one point it becomes such a lifesaver that you you want to discuss it and so much of menopause is shrouded in secrecy so it's their job and now ours Lil to take that shame away like I don't think you need to start talking to Marnie and Ethel right now about the menopause oh god I've still got to have the proper sex talk with them that reminds me Jesus have you talked to them about masturbation yeah wow I've talked to one of

them about masturbation but only because we were on the subject of sex and I was like you know talking about having sex with boys and then I just said there's no pressure to have sex with a boy like you're you know the reason that people have sex is because they want to feel good right they want to feel good with somebody else but you can make yourself feel good on your own you don't need to have somebody else in the equation and she was like oh something to ponder mummy thank you we should probably mention that uh not only did lily give me my first vibrator and awaken masturbation in my life in my 30s she also supplied uh many to the women around the country because you did a line of um i was gonna say masturbators vibrators clitoral stimulators and they were great. I think we can talk about it because they're not on sale anymore,

so it's not promoting. But yes, I did a line of clitoral stimulators and they were very, very successful. People loved them. You gave me one? The whole family got one. Yeah. Lots of people very happy.

I get lots of messages still. Yeah. See, what I think to do, though, as someone that didn't have an orgasm until like later on in their life. That's what I mean. I was like, guys, let me tell you about this thing.

I'm going to make a toy. I'm going to make a toy. I think someone's done that. Okay, well, I'm still going to make a toy. I'm going to plaster my face all over this thing. It's quite funny. I still go into there's like a sex um shop on oxford street yes there is and like up until about six months ago i'd go in

there and there'd be like this big cardboard cutout no way just checking in the face of female sexual pleasure check you the fuck out yeah how full circle is that good for you well did you bring your vibrator on holiday did i bring my vibrator to italy yeah i did but you know what i think it must have been set off in my suitcase because i tried to turn it on earlier on today and it'd run out of batteries but luckily i had a battery operated little one um in my wash bag that i bought at the airport for about 18 pounds because i did the trick. But my worst nightmare is insecurity, it going off and vibrating through that bit.

That happened to me several times. Yeah, it's so embarrassing. Also not. Someone else, Lauren, told me it happened with her and her dad and I was just like mortifying. Her dad? Oh no. Yes. No. You can imagine, like Mick mick like lauren what's that anyway the sun is coming

and i'm gonna see you i actually really miss you don't have too much fun with those other people don't worry no danger of that okay good i will see you in real life this weekend i can't wait we're celebrating our cousin's 40th oh Oh yeah, I flipping forgot about that. I need to get her a birthday present in like the first two hours of Saturday morning

because obviously... Can we get her something from Italy? No. I think I'll get her some... No, don't talk about it here. She's an avid

Miss Me listener and this goes out for her birthday. So just... I'll call you after. I'm really happy that you're there. The house looks fantastic.

Like, I have to say. It's incredibly beautiful here. It really looks it. I want you to go and enjoy your last few days there and really soak it up, because you're going to be busy, busy. I do feel very much like I am winning at life right now, I've got to say.

We're all winners today. Go enjoy your holiday. I love you. I'll see you in real life this weekend. I'll see you for Little Bitch on Monday. God. Bye! Bye! Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily

Allen and Makita Oliver. This is a Persephoneca production for BBC Sounds. Exciting times, Ellis. Oh, is it? Why? Well, our brand new podcast is here two releases a week and we get to leave behind the shackles of live radio and draconian vaping laws of broadcasting house ellis we are the pioneers of digital britain grasping the opportunity to redefine the audio landscape through powerful impactful dynamic conversation You and I will inspire the next generation of freethinkers. What are your aims and aspirations for this new dawn?

Uh, I'll try to arrive on time and not eat mango on air. You know what? I'll take that. The Ellis James and John Robbins Podcast. Out on Tuesdays and Fridays. Listen on BBC Sounds. Listen on BBC Sounds.