Miss Me? - One Squid, Four Puddings and a Pinch of Sault

Episode Date: May 23, 2024

Lily Allen and Miquita Oliver discuss Lily performing with Olivia Rodrigo, the logistical trickiness of touring, having four puddings at dinner, rejecting streaming for linear TV, and do children have the right to hug their parents?Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Production Coordinator: Hannah Bennett Executive Producers: Dino Sofos and Ellie Clifford Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. on Rogers Internet. Visit rogers.com for details. We got you. Rogers. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This episode of Miss Me contains some very strong language and some adult themes. Those adult themes, you can't get enough of them, can you, Lil? Welcome to Miss Me.

I realise I haven't said that for so long. Hi, everybody. Welcome to Miss Me with me, Lily Allen, and Makita Oliver. Look at you today. What do you mean? Oh, don't. Don't. What do you mean? Oh, don't. Don't. What do you mean? With me.

What are you talking about? Shall we describe the look? David said I look like I'm in the 18th century in like Vienna, about to put something on the gramophone. And I don't know that it's important to wash my hands. I think that was more of a sort of fantasy of his than a look. I think it was, the theme was dirty.

Oh, right. I was actually getting sort of more like Italianonna, which works well with the sitting room. You've been very glamorous recently. Let's not fuck around. Oh, yeah, I have. I have been a little bit glammed this week. You were like, I'm just getting an Uber.

I'm sorry, it's in the tone of your voice. I was like, that sounds just getting an Uber. For some reason, the tone of your voice, I was like, that sounds English. And I was like, no, they have Ubers in New York here. And I said, where are you going? You were like, Trenwick. I was like, oh, you are in London. I totally forgot you were coming. And then I totally forgot the reason you were coming.

And then I forgot again. So by the time I was talking to you on the phone and you were on your way to the reason you were coming to London, I had forgotten and was surprised all over again. Let's remember what you were doing in London why did you come to London unless you've been under a rock quite frankly then you won't know that I performed on stage at the O2 with Olivia Rodrigo on Friday night really no one is allowed to say that about their own move. I was joking. I'm joking, obviously. Did cause quite a flutter, though.

I don't want to lie. Yes, it did. The internet was in a tizz. Full Miu Miu look. Yes, it was a full Miu Miu look. Gosh, it was fun. I have to say, her and her team and all the crew are just really lovely. They can't do enough for you.

Everything is catered for and easy and friendly and non-exclusionary. It's just really nice. I was sitting outside talking to some of her crew as well, and they all said that it's the best tour they've ever been on and that she's just a dream to work with. She does seem dreamy, but I have to say, I just need more to, like like sort of put my nails into or like cement myself in the olivia rodriguez moment rodrigo see there you go i'm not quite sure how it's said and i'm not quite sure of her

significance and importance but when you were performing with her at the o2 i thought right o2 she's obviously quite a big deal and i know you played at glastonbury with her at the O2, I thought, right, O2, she's obviously quite a big deal. And I know you played at Glastonbury with her. And then cousin Sasha said, I can't believe Lily was playing with Olivia Rodrigo. I was going to go to that. I thought, hmm, okay, you were going to go. 30-year-old mum, but very cool. Okay.

And then someone else said, who the hell is Olivia Rodrigo? So who the hell is Olivia Rodrigo? Olivia Rodrigo is a young woman from Los Angeles, I believe. She started out in Disney World and then she left that and started a solo career. And she had a massive song called Driver's License, which came out during the pandemic and was a worldwide hit. And, you know, she's really popular with young girls and young women. And I really like her songs. They're really, really well crafted pop songs, eh?

But there is something about the way that she sort of like takes ownership of her own mistakes that I find genuinely quite empowering. And I think that, you know, rather than being a victim in her songs of, you know, fuck him, he's done me wrong. I hate him. He should die. It's always always like why would i put myself in that position of letting myself be fucked over by a guy how old is she she's 21 i think maybe 22 but they're really good songs you should listen to her records you know how much of a harsh critic i am on music and i really like her i know how much you don't like music so this is huge to hear you talk about any artist like this but I was really proud Lil. Oh thank you. I don't know how the hell you do that I don't know how you talk to me on FaceTime and then just morph back into

pop star land. Well you know what's quite funny actually is that it didn't really occur to me until I got there well first of all I played with her once before at Glastonbury about three years ago. And I hadn't been on stage for a long time before that. And so I got myself some in-ear monitors, moulded. They take a mould of the inside of your ear and then you get the monitors moulded so that you can hear what you're doing on stage. Singing back, yeah. And they took ages to come through the post. They'd never arrived.

They didn't arrive in time for the concert. So I was quite upset about that. And they're really expensive. But they did arrive. They went to my manager's office, you know, a week or so after the gig had happened. And when it came to getting stuff together for this outing on the stage, you know, they said, oh, have you got in-ear monitors? And I said, oh, yeah, actually, the last time I've been on stage was with Olivia Rodrigo. Oh, no. That's the last time I've been on stage was with Olivia Rodrigo. Oh, no. That's okay.

That's nice. I literally haven't been on stage and sung since the last time she wheeled me out. Yeah. And so my inners got an outing. And now I'm using them now. Wait, so you don't have this ugly wire that I have to have? No, I've got my fancy pants. Can I have some molded innies?

I'll set you back a couple of grand, I'll just warn you. Couple of grand? Very expensive. I have asked the Mystery Team, there's the Mystery Team, to have a moment, the moment, that you go on stage and do this. Should we listen to it together? Sure.

The best day of my whole career is when I got to sing with her a few years ago at Blastonbury. I absolutely adore her. Will you please give it up for Miss Lillian? Okay, we get it. Alright, we get it. We get it. It went well. Oh! Wait a minute. No, no, let me hear the drop. God, smile drops.

No, I don't. I don't want to. OK. Feel the moment. Feel the magic. Feel the love. Yeah, I actually got goosebumps listening to it then. I didn't on Friday because I took a pizza blocker because I was so scared. I wasn't as present as I'd hoped to be.

It's really nice. It's really nice. I didn't really think I'd get a very good response at Glastonbury at the time, but I was, you know, very surprised at how welcoming people were. And I, again, got quite scared before this one, thinking, oh, you know,

she's like 20 years younger than me. She's like, her audience aren't going to know who I am. They were like three when that song came out. That's a very valid fear. But I think I think I mean Olivia Rodrigo just said one of the biggest moments of my career bringing Lily on at Class 3 so she like she's there for you and if she's there for you I think it doesn't really matter when Smile came I think her fans listen to her and and trust her do you know what I mean yeah she's like diehard Lily I love it yeah and it felt. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. She's like diehard Lily. I love it. Yeah, and it felt really nice. You know, it feels really nice

being up on that stage and singing and I miss it. I really do miss it. I love being on stage and I love singing songs, but I've just, you know, I haven't got enough really good songs yet for this next record.

Yeah, but Lil, the thing is, right, you know, there's a whole situation that happens when people are returning, I suppose, to music. And it takes a lot. And if it goes really well, it takes another lot. Which is if you, like you say, you haven't got enough songs together, right? But you will soon because I know what you're like.

You're going to finish whatever project you're working on musically at the moment. And then what? Would you go on tour for a year and a half again? No, I don't think I'd do that. But is it not a prerequisite? No, I don't think I'd do that. But is it not a prerequisite? No, you don't have to do that. I mean, the first thing is, you know, getting enough songs together to put out an album. Although I don't really know why, because that sort of seems quite redundant in the age of streaming.

But yeah, then you would ordinarily go out and tour that record. I guess because people don't make money from streaming anymore, they make it on the road. that record I guess because people don't make money from streaming anymore they make it on the road but you know that whole thing is I don't want to say a ball lake because I love being on stage and I love touring to a certain degree but it's a lot of commitment you know you have to have depending on what size venues you're playing and stuff you know you have to have like a certain core crew that you have on a retainer and so those people want to be working and want to be paid for a certain amount of time and in order to cover their retainers you obviously need to have a certain amount of booking so I think it's like a minimum of like six months or something until

you get out of the red and start going into profit so it's um who's got that kind of time to go on the road for six months well I certainly don't at the moment because my two daughters are at middle school and, you know, my husband is away filming for the next year. So I just don't have the luxury to, you know, be able to leave my children for six months at a time. And if I could do it like, you know, fly to a different location every weekend, then I would. But, you know, the people that would be working for me would be out of work for five days a week. So it just wouldn't make sense financially to do it that way. And if somebody is out there that's listening, that's like a bit of a whiz in terms of planning tours, then they could make it financially viable for everyone involved and be my guest, you know, pitch it to me.

Can you imagine? I think maybe if you split the money between the crew and the catering like what I feel like Solange doesn't go out on the road and like kick it for two years much like her sister yeah I feel like she does like a show yeah I mean people do do it in different ways I just know one way and no one's ever really given me any other option. So, you know, maybe I should talk to my booking agent. Say, is there another way that we can approach this? Because I might be open to some negotiations. But even so, it's more the album in itself

that I'm finding quite intimidating at the moment. I feel like, you know, when I first started making records, it was about making you know 11 12 13 songs that existed in one space that people digested as a whole and I know that people still make albums and people still listen to them kind of like that but also not like I was driving upstate the other day to go and do something and I was listening to you know one of the big streaming services and I was just being pelted with a female pop star's new single like it seemed like every four songs it was just shoved into the algorithm and I was just like what is life now like I don't know it's so

I don't know there was something about when we were kids right and you go to our price or wherever it was to go and buy a record and you spent 15 pounds on an album and you felt like an ownership over those you know 12 13 14 tracks or whatever it was and even if not every song sounded like a lead single like you considered it and listened to it and consumed it in a way because you owned it you bought it right yeah i had this with bush what was the album called the big one with swallow yeah exactly had that on it but i was like aware of bush before this album because i knew people in new york where they were big and then i went to r price in notting hill after school once and their new album was number two and it really pissed me off i was like do other people

know about bush that's my thing. That's my album. I mean, I still, even to this day, find it quite weird when I really love an album. I go to a concert, a gig.

A concert. A concert. A gig. And someone else is singing along the songs. I'm like, yeah, I guess you have this too.

I genuinely feel true ownership over songs and albums that I love. So funny, because people usually, when they go to a concert of a band they love, they're quite happy to be surrounded by like-minded people,

whereas you're like, Not me! Fuck you, you found them too. Yeah, I was very much like, okay. This is actually my Eliza song. But albums that I can just press play on are few and far between, and when you find them, they're great.

I think that's why Salt did so well because they played it all very differently and weren't shoved down everyone's throats and you know tested the idea of mystery

what would happen if you didn't know everything about us maybe to the point where I might have to explain who Salt are because they're so mysterious but you know

it's a collective of a lot of different people boys and girls men and women women, from West London. I think most of them are from... One of the girls is a sister with someone that we grew up with. They're really old-school West London people and make beautiful music and just kind of continuously put out albums

that they don't tell you about. They don't tell you when they're coming out. They don't tour. And they did a one-off gig in the old IKEA in Tottenham last year, like November, and it was extraordinary. Do you know what it was, Lil? It was excellent.

And I don't see excellence that often because the ideas of I just need to be out on the road, the tour needs to be big, that's more important, obviously. Yeah, I don't feel like I'm hitting excellence in the studio right now. Not yet. But it will come. Do you know when you're hitting it? Yes. But I wonder if I Do you know when you're hitting it? Yes.

But I wonder if I'm too self-critical now that I will never feel that. I feel like when I was younger, I just didn't care that much. And maybe, you know, there was a freedom that came with that. Of course there was. The freedom of youth.

Sure. Yeah. But now you have the wisdom of age. What does that look like musically? I don't know. It just sounds, everything sounds a bit too serious or something. I don't know. We'll see.

I'll get there. There have been certain little moments that have revealed themselves that have been interesting and that I've enjoyed. I sent you that one song. Yeah, that was basically just... Just be careful. Be very careful right now, okay? Very sensitive.

No, the song was fine. The song was sensitive no the song was fine the song was lovely the song was fine thank you there you go reviews just in makita says the song's fine do you know what song made me think true excellence is what lily allen can achieve when she puts her mind to it that song higher that was on your last album i loved loved that song. I like that song. I thought that was truly excellent songwriting and kind of musical craftsmanship, the way the song built. When you're good, you're good. We're not just going to sit and talk about how great you are and miss me, but when you're good, you're good.

And you do know that, I hope. I do. Why do you think Olivia Rodrigo dragged you out for a second time with your cane? My cane. Your arthritis pills. pills no you're incredible i was very proud you look good you did a good job proud of you thanks babe and how have you been feeling since? On top of the world?

Pretty good, actually. It was on Friday night, the gig, and then on Saturday night I went out to the theatre with a friend of mine and went out for dinner. I went to a restaurant in Soho. It's a bit of an institution. It's called Quo Vadis. Highly recommend. I ate four puddings, which was really good.

No, you didn't. I did. I took a picture of it. I posted it on my instagram so you know what puddings were they i didn't check so we had brown bread ice cream which was delicious a buttermilk pudding with a sort of fruit compote and oh my god my tummy is rumbling because i'm talking about pudding um rhubarb and almond tart and uh profiteroles no no don't fuck around but he doesn't fuck around that chef jeremy lee yeah he doesn't fuck around well i've been on a very different tip of trying to um clear and detox my

system you have so this is turmeric milk have i told you about that oh you need to get profiterole down you babes this is just as much of a party but i do want people to know that if you put oat milk and turmeric in a pan with a little bit of any spice you like, something very, very special happens. I'm intolerant to oat milk, so that would not be good for me. Oh, but in other news, so when I flew back from London to New York, I flew into Newark Airport on Sunday. There's a thing here called Global Entry. Do you know about Global Entry?

No. Okay, so you can apply for this thing it's called the trusted traveler program when you come to america ordinarily you're caught in a humongous queue at immigration in order to get into the country sometimes at newark and at jfk it can be like three hours long oh come on my mom came to visit us the other day and she was in the immigration hall for four hours so there's this thing called global entry which is basically they give you a card and then you can go to the kiosk and you put your card in the kiosk and your passport and it's not the person that does the immigration it's like you just go through so it's like you know six minutes and I applied months ago

is that all you've got to do just apply you apply and then they send you an email that says that you've been sort of approved but you have to go and do an interview when you come back in and so when I returned they said oh have you applied for global entry I said yes they said oh yeah you're ready for your interview and I was like oh my god right there and then and so yeah so I went and stood in the queue and then I got into the global entry and I thought I'd flunked it I thought I flunked my interview and they weren't going to let me in because I have something on my criminal record I won't go into it a couple of things I was gonna say it's more than one hey um anyway and um yes there were a couple of things that I thought they're probably not gonna let me in and he questioned me about those things and about my

name change because I about my name change because I changed my name when I got married. And I called David when I left and I was like, oh, I had my interview and I'm not going to get it. And then this morning I got the email. I've been approved. Global entry access. I've got the global entry.

Those poor fuckers that you're going to walk past now. I know, my kids being two of them. Bye. I'll, my kids being two of them. Bye! I'll see you at home. I'll give you the Uber code. You're going to have to apply for global entry for them too. I'm joking. I have approved for them, they just haven't got their interviews yet.

I'm going to pass you. You know our parents are in Antigua together. My whole family are there. They're doing a pop-up restaurant in Antigua. And my mum wants to shine a light on, like, the culinary world of the Caribbean, particularly Antigua, where we're from, which is great. But there's also a lot of rum drinking and Lion Beach. And then she goes, guess who's here?

Alison. I was like, Auntie Alison's there. And then Aaron and Garth, your stepdad and my stepdad, were, like, watching the boxing together. I don't know. It just feels like there's a hole, a Lily Makita-shaped hole in this trip. I know, we should really be there. Could you miss me there? Yeah.

You could sit in the bathroom, I'll sit in the kitchen. Do you miss me? Exactly. I got 250 kids skipping yesterday. No way. What do you mean? Yeah, for ropes. It started out as skip school and it's just like trying to get as many people skipping as possible

because skipping changed my life. We were building it as a movement, which is where we go around the country, schools and community centres, and we get people skipping. We've got a lot coming up, and I haven't done one in a while. I was a little bit demotivated. I was like, I don't want to go to a school and get 100 250 kids skipping but something about kids that just um like it was a really special day it was a primary school in hornsey in like harringay which is part

of london i love and it was and i got and i said um where are we doing it to the head teacher so i all still feel intimidated around head teachers so where are we doing it and said after your assembly because i've got to do an assembly for them first which is really terrifying and they said we're gonna do it on the roof your assembly because I've got to do an assembly for them first which is really terrifying and then she said we're going to do it on the roof I was like shut the fuck up

and it was this big huge flat tarmac roof with like glass panels and you could just see all over London particularly north greeny London

then they just brought rounds of kids but we'd like double booked how many we were doing it was eight rounds of like 30 kids and each class was

like 20 minutes i was fucking knackered you were yeah it's a lot of hard work but it was one of those days where you like genuinely feel like the future is bright the future is alive like a lot of the kids hugged me at the end like and they call me miss lil miss makita i miss no it's not even miss makita just miss and one of them was like miss i really enjoyed that can i hug you i was Miss Makita I'm Miss no it's not even Miss Makita just Miss and one of them was like Miss I really enjoyed that can I hug you

I was like yeah sure right now bring it in love hugs hug me children so I had this lovely lovely kind of life affirming yeah life affirming

it really changed my idea of what my summer looks like it turns out I'm not going to be fucking around as much as I thought I've got work to do I've got kids to inspire lily i mean you and me both babe speaking of kids to inspire i got an email from ethel this morning my oldest daughter an email from ethel yeah they haven't got phones so when she gets to school she will send me an email from

her school email account they were at disney world this weekend david took them to disney world while i was in London with Olivia Rodrigo. How is Disney World these days? Is it still as popping as it used to be? Pretty good. They had a great time, but they missed school yesterday. And I guess that Ethel had some assignment

that was set yesterday, but missed it because she was at Disney World. So she emailed me in a panic this morning going, what is a cultural or traditional dance from our family? I need it for a project in half an hour um the bogey no i i sent her a youtube video of big fish little fish cardboard box no no come on at least send her like shaggy mr bombastic like they're the dutty we do have family dances and you know it yeah but she had to learn it in 20 minutes i was like you know she's not gonna learn the dutty wine in 20

minutes but big fish little fish cardboard box seemed like it was doable you know the idea of ethel going this is what my mother's sent me about it's a classic rave dance i think it originated on the m25 somewhere in 1993. You know what? Americans won't know the dodgy rave past of that, so they'll probably just think it's very cute. Great. That's fascinating, Ethel. Thank you so much for sharing your traditional family dance with us.

For sharing your happy, hardcore, acid rave traditional family dance with us. Nice one, Ethel. Keep the family traditions alive she gets really panicky doesn't she when her work's compromised or like her studies yeah although marnie did her squid dissection which i believe we covered last week a little bit she did it on thursday and um she said that they had to take five minutes before they dissected the squid to you know acknowledge the life of the squid and the sacrifice that the squid had made for, you know, in the interest of science.

And I said, oh, did you name him? She said, yeah, I did actually. I was like, what's he called? She's like, Tim. So I thought about him swimming around with his family and his friends. She likes a classic name for her animals, doesn't she? Terry the turtle. Tim the squid.

Tim the squid. Tim the squid. She doesn't embellish much. I've raised them well. Do you know squids have beaks? Like a duck? She told me this last night. I said, what do you mean it's got a beak? She said, yeah, it's got a beak.

That's where it's got like its outer tentacles and that's where they catch the food and then they shove it in and then it goes through the beak. Let's have a little look. I'll Google. Well, the National Geographic says a squid's beak is a marvel of biological engineering. Well, there you go. Why don't we look at it? It's got a two-part beak situated in the buccal mass

and surrounded by muscular head appendages. The beak may also be referred to as mandibles or jaws. These beaks are different from bird beaks because it crushes bone while most birds don't. So there you go. That last bit was important to know. That's why the bird doesn't look like a bird's beak. Because they crush bone.

They crush bone, but birds don't. It's a different kind of beak, bruv. Okay. It's a squid beak. You get me. It's like one of them squid beak things. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Got you. it's like a nice like one of them squid beat things oh okay oh okay got you so i was just like doing my usual like what's on bbc4

and it threw up another brilliant yummy delicious surprise it was like a documentary called metro land that i've never heard of but it's apparently a seminal 1975 i think documentary and it's with john betjeman who was the poet laureate of the uk in the 70s around some time it's just bloody so up my street and brilliant okay basically it's about the history and development and origins of everywhere on the metropolitan line by the time he got to pinner i was like what isn't that where elton john's from is it i think so but i love london i love thinking about the history of london and the development of london and how it came to be because i was bitching about gentrification to

cousin phoebe yesterday and she really came for me she really wasn't just letting me do it she was like well don't you think that when our family came into Notting Hill that the people that were there before thought who were these assholes that have come in I was like but we did things for the community in the tabernacle and trellick and did it and Phoebe was like they wouldn't care they would have just seen us as annoying new people so I said okay there is a distinction between development and gentrification and what I'm interested in is the development of an area and how it came to be and this guy goes to like i mean i really hope people are interested as much as me but it was oh it was just absolutely brilliant he was yeah so he goes st john's wood kneesden wembley harrow

kneesden used to be the place to be might have it sort of a renaissance period needs and it's kind of like on the edges isn't it of like where is kind of quite cool these days yes well this is what it was about and after a while i realized it was kind of a conversation about where suburbia is and where it's not and how those lines are blurred because with gentrification if everyone keeps getting kicked out because i've seen maybe another kind of round of people from clapton be moved out and because because there's no space for them and they can't afford it, blah, blah, blah. And I'm thinking, where are they going? And then Phoebe said, maybe there'll be a new soul scene. That's like a cool soul music scene that starts in like Pinner.

Because everyone from Clapton had to move there. I was like, no, I don't think it works like that. I don't think the new massive attack are being built in Pinner. I think you and Phoebe need your own podcast. No. So can I just ask you, is that how you consume? Is by recommended stuff? The algorithm recommends you things?

No, this is genuinely like, I like turning the TV on and whatever's there, I watch. Yeah, so that's what I mean. Because the things that are there will generally be there because the algorithm has put things that they think that you'll watch there. No, darling, I'm talking about channels. I'm not talking about turning Netflix on. I'm talking about...

Sorry, what? Exactly. I'm talking about turning the telly on and I go BBC One, BBC Two, Three, Four. I don't even look at Five, sorry. And then I go a little bit of... And I go BBC Four. I hurtle to BBC Four with, sorry. And then I go a little bit of, and I go BBC four. I hurtle to BBC four with real excitement

because it always gives me a great surprise. Then I get a bit more bored and then I'm out. Okay. If Rosemary in Time or Midsummer Murders isn't on ITV4, I'm done. What are your concentration levels like when you're watching TV? Because I was listening to another podcast the other day and they were talking about this thing called second screen, which is like a terminology that um is used in the biz there's something where like if something

is too hard to follow narrative wise or something moves too quickly there's too much detail the producers will say yeah yeah that's great but it's not second screen enough meaning that somebody can't be on their phone doing something else and follow what's going on on the screen yeah okay so things are being dumbed down because people need to be able to keep up even though they're not concentrating which is just a travesty I think I'd rather that that was something that we all knew is a reality now but maybe we don't cater to it with the produce that we deliver like that's terrifying that marathon that we had last weekend when we were doing the arbor strizan marathon i

said to my mom and to air and my stepdad and we all got into my bed to watch tv together but i said everyone has to leave their phones on the island in the kitchen if you're going to come in here i don't want you being distracted i want us all to be in it together. That's true. No, I'm with you. That's why I like BBC Four, because it's not about like, oh, this is entertaining. It's like, I would never have looked for Metroland, but it gave me everything I didn't know I needed, which is for me, great television. I think sometimes, like in life, it's like what you want isn't the same as what you need. That's why we love the bbc

isn't it let's just have a little break and we will see you or you will hear us shortly we won't see you that's not how it works still getting our heads around audio welcome back to miss me are we going to talk about the somewhat upsetting thing that you sent me well i don't know i mean it is upsetting in some ways i forwarded you a article that i read in new yorker called do children have a right to hug their parents i love hugging my children oh do they get your hugs i'm just not so much into hugging other people. But this article, you read it, right? Yeah, I actually read it right the way through. Like New Yorker goes in. This was one of those articles that just keeps going. And also because it's such a terrible tale, it just gets worse and worse. Yeah. What did you think? So the article was about these two children who basically took on Michigan State, I believe, because the prison service in Michigan had turned its back on in-person visits.

So visits when, you know, family members can go and visit their mums and dads in jail and have replaced them with video, like basically like FaceTimes. video like basically like facetimes right and so these two girls have taken michigan state to court to say that hugging your parents is uh like a fundamental human right of a child to be able to hug their parents and i thought that was quite an interesting concept but then it went further which is what i found really disturbing upsetting which is like basically the privatization of all of this has made it so that basically they started charging families with absolutely no money so if you don't have any money you don't see your loved one for that to be happening on the sly to disadvantage people to people with no money it's just like the injustice and the fact they just haven't had a voice till these two young girls decided to take on a state of course and also taking into account that if you are a single parent,

which this situation would insinuate a lot of people in this position are, then it's likely that money is scarce anyway, right? You're trying to support your family without, you know, there being two people in the household bringing in money. So, and then the prison service is saying that you have to spend some of that money on the privilege of being able to see your partner or your father in person it's right absolute outrage I couldn't believe it and there was that woman who was like breastfeeding her baby oh my goodness yeah and they'd taken her away from her baby obviously she's incarcerated but

they wouldn't give her time with her baby yeah and she said that after a year she still couldn't breastfeed her baby in jail and that the bond and the trust between her and the baby had just completely gone and it was not through no fault of her own because obviously she was incarcerated although obviously we don't know the details of how she was in prison but it just made me think about the fucking injustice of like bureaucracy like what goes down when people don't have the tools to fight do you know what i mean it's like that what they're going to do fight the entire prison system and they just get? It's like, what are they going to do? Fight the entire prison system? And they just get told that's the way things are.

It's just like the injustice. I just can't take it. It's so heavy. But it did make me think, if hugs are a fundamental part of bonding and closeness. Well, also, that was the thing, how the girl realized it. Because you're not really given that language anyway, right? At school about attachment.

So she was looking at videos on tiktok that were talking about attachment styles and she realized that she didn't really you know her dad had been put in jail when she was really little she didn't know what he looked like really except on a video screen didn't know what he smelled like didn't know what he felt like and it was because of these tiktok videos that were i guess parenting videos that she was like hang on a second i'm being denied of these very basic things. Oh, right, like we should be hugging. Yeah, I'm not able to do this with my dad

because he's incarcerated. But yeah, fascinating. Feels like there's some sort of something happening over there though. Like, I mean, because of these two young girls, good fucking on them. The prison service, I mean, it's not, let's just say it's not blankets.

It's not all prisons. I think that like lots of prisons are privatized over here. So, but there was some detail in there. It was just astonishing. Like it costs five cents a minute for a prisoner to read a book on a tablet. Five cents a minute just to read. Basic human rights shit is being taken away in this kind of really sly little background way. Like not allowing someone to read because of money yeah

that's like harking back to some dark old shit they're also like companies that have things manufactured by prisoners in jail in america and they'd pay them like you know way under the minimum wage and then sell the products for full price and obviously the people that make them don't see a cent or a dime of the profits but they use you know prison labor i mean it's a really really dark industry. I would say it doesn't make you think twice about living in America, but I'm sure... I'm hoping I'm not going to go to prison here for any reason.

You never know. I was just thinking about the hugs that we have. Me and you. How many cuddling sessions have we had? In our life? Probably about three. I'm really not a tactile person. Why is that?

Right, can I ask? Because my mother, and I know, if you know who my mother is as a person on television, she's very warm and loving, especially to her chefs. Not so much to me. I'm a real, like hugs give me kisses give me love and my mum hugs me with a pat and i hate it ethel does that to me sometimes because i think i did it to her when she was a baby i'd hold her and i'd cuddle her especially when she was like um she had acid reflux so she'd always be vomiting and so i'd always pull her into me when she was vomiting because I didn't want her to get self-conscious about the vomiting so I'd always like sort of do this like you know it's okay like encourage her to get the sick out and not to be

ashamed of it and she started to mimic it and she still does it to me sometimes you know she'll come over and she'll be like tap me like this so that's actually quite sweet but it's funny because hugging I remember like hugging my mum when I was a kid and really liking having hugs from my mum. But I also remember when I got my first boyfriend, Lester, that there was like complete transference in terms of like he became my person that I was tactile with and that I showed my affection to. And I couldn't hug anyone from my family from that moment onwards. Isn't that strange? I mean, I'm sure my therapist will have a field day with it. I'll talk to her about it next week, see what she says.

Well, it's interesting, just the transference thing. So it's not that you didn't need hugs, it's that you decided it would come from only one place, which was romantic love. Yes. I need cousin hugs constantly. I need friend hugs. Why do you think I got a puppy?

I need hugs. I find it really, like... I know friend hugs. Why do you think I got a puppy? I need hugs. I find it really, like... I know you do. I find it really claustrophobic. I love hugging my kids, though, and I get into bed with both of them for, like, five minutes before I put them both in bed, and sometimes I read with Marnie.

Ethel doesn't like reading so much, but we do have snuggles. So I like it there, and I like hugging David. I must say. It's more like spooning with david i like being hugged from behind yeah that's the spoon that's um that's his like the definition but that's kind of a hug absolutely it's the best kind of hug you can have oh i love spooning um just to anyone else out there who has a friend who's like not a hugger the best thing about it is when you're affectionate it really means something yeah and

it's a real surprise like sometimes you're like put your hand on my hand i'm like it was my favorite thing about the pandemic was not touching anyone and allowed it was like oh my god it's just not even a question sorry Sorry. Just careful. I remember it was like, maybe it was like Demi Moore or maybe it was Terry Hatcher from Desperate Housewives. And I was doing a junket. A junket is when like the actor or actress is from something is in a hotel all day. And then the press go throughout the day into the room to do interviews. You've seen junkets.

And Terry Hatcher, I was doing this like long ass Desperate Housewives one. And Terry Hatcher was like, this like long ass desperate housewives one and Terry Hatcher was like I went to shake her hand which is primarily just a part of how to say hello physically in a room

and she went oh sorry I'm not shaking hands with any of you guys today and I was like okay what do you mean so the dirty

stinking press I was like a 22 year old little girl from London and I thought I think it's always good to shake a hand. Not in the pandemic. I mean, I will do it.

I'll respond with a handshake if someone sticks their hand out to me. Handshakes is not so much a problem actually, because it's quite sort of, it's distance. And it's like a sort of greeting thing. It's a hug. It's a come here. Specifically if I'm like upset about something

and I'm being vulnerable and then someone goes, you know, tries to hug me. No, I'm like, thank you so goes you know tries to hug no I'm like thank you so much put your arms around me anyway that's when we've always differed I mean I'd hug you if you were sad I think she's never sad she's never sad how sad do I need to be for this fucking hug when was the last time we had a hug so I've been through some shit over the last three years I didn't get any hugs quite sad you do You do. When you say, oh, Keats, I know you, that's a hug. I give you the support that you need verbally.

Do you want to talk about all the other things you hate? Do you want to talk about the other things you hate? Holding things. I wonder if they're related. We went on holiday just after Christmas and it was quite revelatory, right, Keats? They found out a few things about me that you didn't know. Yeah, hates music, hates holding things.

I knew she hated hugs and hates dancing. We've rectified the dancing one with the birthday party, but I don't think anything could stop you from hating holding things. I hate to hold. It's my worst thing. I hate it. I absolutely hate having to carry things around in my hand thing. I hate it. I absolutely hate having to carry things

around in my hand. Even your posh handbag? Depends how heavy it is. I don't mind holding a phone, for instance. I don't mind holding even a cup of tea. Do you know what, Lily?

I'm going to start to wrap this conversation up. There is only so much crazy I think you should share. I'd actually like some feedback if there's anyone else out there that hates holding things i'd really like you to get in touch yeah whoever you are that one other person who's as mental as lily i bet you i'm not alone i bet you there's lots of people out there that hate holding things she really is an arsehole with this we're not just making this up for the vlog i get really grumpy if you're traveling with me and i'm holding a bag like somebody else will inevitably take the

bag off me because i'm huffing and puffing so much i'm just like get it out of my hands yeah i feel like you could keep going so i'm going to stop you there thank you for one big fat dose of you today. That's all I need. Bye! I love you, I love you. Don't hug me, don't hug me. Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Makita Oliver. This is a Persephoneca production for BBC Sounds. Who done it? Crime conundrums. Murderous mayhem.

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