Modern Wisdom - #340 - Mark Manson - 11 Uncomfortable Truths About Life

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

Mark Manson is an author and blogger. Mark is the king of telling people things they don't want to hear, but need to hear. I couldn't bring him on without using this as an opportunity to dig out some of his most insightful and painful lessons about life, so here we go - hold on tight. Expect to learn why almost nothing is ever about you, why there's a fundamental selfishness attached to anxiety, how Mark transitioned from partyboy to fatherhood, why you're probably the problem in all your relationships, why contrarians aren't as smart as they think and much more... Sponsors: Get 10% discount on your first month from BetterHelp at https://betterhelp.com/modernwisdom (discount automatically applied) Get over 37% discount on all products site-wide from MyProtein at http://bit.ly/modernwisdom (use code: MODERNWISDOM) Extra Stuff: Preorder Will - https://amzn.to/35LTkOv Check out Mark's website - https://markmanson.net/ Follow Mark on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/markmanson/ Follow Mark on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0TnW9acNxqeojxXDMbohcA Get my free Ultimate Life Hacks List to 10x your daily productivity → https://chriswillx.com/lifehacks/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://www.chriswillx.com/contact Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello friends, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Mark Manson. He's an author and blogger, and we are talking 11 uncomfortable truths about life. Mark is the king of telling people things they don't want to hear, but probably need to hear. I couldn't bring him on without using this as an opportunity to dig out some of his most insightful and painful lessons about life. So here we go, hold on tight. Expect to learn

why almost nothing is ever about you, why there's a fundamental selfishness attached to anxiety, how Mark transitioned from party boy to fatherhood, why you're probably the problem in all your relationships, why contrarians aren't as smart as they think, and much more. On top of that, Mark's also just announced that he is releasing a book with Will Smith of all people, The Fresh Prince, and you get to find out what it's like to work with Will Smith for a couple of years, which to be frank sounds like perhaps the best job in history. On top of that, Mark's sold 15 million books and that he's completely worthy of the success as far as I can see. His insights into human behaviour and the way that our minds work and

how we engage with other people is he cuts through and does a lot of sense making. So I really hope to enjoy this episode. And if you do hit the subscribe button. It's the only way that you can ensure that you will never miss an episode every Monday, Thursday and Saturday when they get uploaded. It supports the show. It makes me very happy that you have no reason not to do it. Take your fingers for a walk please and just make sure that subscribe button is pressed. I thank you. But now it's time to learn some uncomfortable life truths with Mark Manson. Ladies and gentlemen boys and girls welcome back. I'm joined by Mr. Mark Manson, welcome the show.

It's good to be here. Thanks for having me. My pleasure, man. So you are as much of a fan of truth bombs and red pills and uncomfortable insights as I am. So what I've done is I've scraped your social media from the last few months and pulled out some of the best ones And I've kept some absolute corkers for the end But before we get into going through those You're writing a book with Will Smith. Are you producing releasing a book with Will Smith? Yeah, so I mean my part's kind of over

But yeah, he And I linked up in 2018. He wanted to write kind of a memoir slash life lessons kind of from his career and his life. And he was looking for a co-author. And so he and I just hit it off at Good Chemistry. And it was, I was a little bit hesitant at first. I was like, I don't wanna do this just because it's a celebrity.

You know, I don't want to be part of like a PR puff piece. Um, you know, it needs to be real. It needs to be raw. Like there needs to be a good reason behind it. And when I met him for the first time, I asked him why he wanted to do a book. He, the first thing he said is he said, look like my whole career. I've been like hiding myself, um, you know, as I've been hiding myself as a huge celebrity. You hide yourself from the world.

You everything is polished and pristine and kind of catered for the viewer. He was like, I want to put the real me out there. And I was like, fuck yeah, dude, I'm on board. What's it like working with Will Smith? Honestly, man, he is, he's a dream. Like he, and I've heard this is not the case with a lot of famous people, but he is honestly one of the easiest people to work with. He's really professional, he's super nice, very smart, very down the earth.

We honestly, we just had a blast. Like, we just hung out. He took me all these crazy fucking places that he was going to. And we just sit around and talk about his life and talk about his ideas. It was easy for me because I just sat there and listened and then I basically just pick out his greatest hits. That's a really good one. We'll use that. That was it. Then I did the first draft and he he's done the he kind of did a revision of that

Cool, so you you sort of Ghost wrote it and he edited his own work kind of Yeah, like we did the outline together and And kind of came up like agreed on the structure and then I I did that the first draft Yeah, just generally more agonizing draft. And then he kind of revised his voice onto it and added little details and style, stylistic things and stuff like that. So, it's great.

I'm super excited. I'm excited for him. I'm excited for me. It's a really cool book and I'm proud of it. So it comes out November 9th. That's sick man. Pre-order link will be, I'll make sure the pre-order links are in the show now to below.

Yeah, I think more sort of heroes of Hollywood, obviously McConaughey released his green lights this year and that's absolutely smashed it and kind of added value. It wasn't just, as you said, this sort of puff piece about I'm a rich famous person, you should find out about my life. It's actually adding genuine value. I mean, I'd learn shit from Will Smith. I feel like I've got stuff from him. He's got a lot to share, man. Did he impact, given the fact that you've sort of learned a lot about this world, sense-making and kind of understanding the way that the world works?

Did he, in part, sort of lessons or change your worldview profoundly at all? He was very impactful on me in, in kind of a slightly different way. I mean, I'll, I'll say this, when I met him and he really started sharing his story, like his childhood and growing up in West Philly and, you know, like being a rapper in the 80s, like, I quickly realized that this is one of the most emotionally resilient people I've ever met. Like the stuff that he went through and not only like went through it but surmounted it and then came out the other side like a positive healthy person. It's just incredible, like it's a real, there's a real kind of survivor or ship aspect to

his story that I think most people don't know about him. Like people don't realize that. And so that really excited me from kind of a writing standpoint and you know, being in the personal development world like that's, you know, we kind of like live and breathe stories like that. So I'm super excited about that. But in terms of like how he affected me personally, actually most of what I learned from him was very much

kind of like professional basedbased. Like seeing the way he built his team and the way he thinks about creative projects or collaborating with people, seeing the way he deals with his fans, kind of just hearing his ideas of like, on just being famous or being thought leader or being somebody who people like being a role model. This is a guy who's done that at the highest level for 30 years now. So for me, I'm still a fairly young guy.

My career just kind of took off four or five years ago, it was like a masterclass of just, you know, how to like be a professional in a creative industry and how to like handle success well and maintain success and work with people. It was great. That really is pretty invaluable, right? Because as you get further and further up the tote and pole of success and away from the normal distribution of normal, right?

There's like who the fuck's teaching Mark Manson how to deal with fame? You know, like the guy that sold 13 million books, like who's the one that's like, oh, yeah, I'm five steps ahead of you Mate, like, you know, hold on to the coattails. Good look. But there's a very, very small number of people that can do that. And I think I heard recently Rogan had a reverse interview with, I can't remember the pair, they're really good podcasters actually. They sat him down in his own studio and interviewed him. And you find out he has the same challenges. And yet you're talking about probably perhaps the most influential person in America, one

of. And he's like, I'm got fucking clue what I'm doing. He doesn't even have a PA. You just realize everyone. And again, that's quite an interesting thing, or a humbling thing for normal people, normal, to realize, right, that, look, the people that you care about and think have got it all sorted out, they're just

fucking about as well. Like, they haven't got a clue. No one's got a clue. Like, if Will Smith's, like, if you have to get to Will Smith's level to have your shit sorted, there's no hope for any of us. Well, it's funny too, because it's, you know, at this point, I've spent three years around him and his team. And I mean, I love the people on his, the he's got great people who work for him. And I really like them. But it's funny because I mean, they have the exact same challenges of like I really like them, but it's funny because I mean, they have the exact same challenges of like any business organization that you would ever come up with.

You know, it's like the same kind of bullshit and miscommunication and like, you know, like egos bumping into each other and stuff. And it's having got the designs done on time and too many emails and can somebody set such and such up with the SS and three P server and all that bullshit? Exactly. Exactly. You know, it's funny. I've got a friend here in New York who's kind of, he's pretty high up in the VC world here. And he just had kind of a stratospheric rise in his career in the last five years as well. And I remember I was talking to him. So suddenly, he's taking meetings with high level people that he's getting invited out to meet with CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and being brought on

as a consultant because this huge company is thinking about doing an internal incubator for a bunch of startups within and they need advice on like what's the best way to go about it. So he's like meeting all these like CEOs and billionaires and stuff and I remember I was having dinner with him and he was like yeah I just I think I realize you know I always just thought like if I just go one wrong hire like everybody's gonna know what they're doing and now I'm like at the top of the ladder and it's just, that's probably it. Hahaha. Fuck.

Well, I mean, I've been thinking about this a lot recently. How many times do you have to disprove your own imposter syndrome with success in the real world before it fucks off for good? Like, what's the nail in the coffin? Of that, is it 14 million book? Is it 15 million books? Is it like- I'm not there yet. 17, like, 14 million book? Is it 15 million books? Is it like- I'm not there yet.

I'm not there yet. 17, like, seven million email subscribers, like eight million, like, where does it stop? Yeah, I mean, if there's ever a number that brings total confidence, I have not found it yet. Yes. And it's, you know, yet. And it's funny too because I've still, I think I've got my imposter syndromes gotten a little bit better. I think anytime you have a sudden

burst of success, imposter syndromes probably a normal healthy reaction because there's a little bit of like a, whoa, what the fuck, what did I do to deserve this? Like that, it's kind of a natural, and then you start settling into it, realize that, you know, you worked pretty hard and you did something great. But like, I still have some of it, but it's funny, I feel like part of me

is a little bit afraid to let go because I feel like if I let go, and I'm like, yeah, I'm Mark fucking mad, my book's like, crush it. You know, as soon as I, if I let myself fall into that, then I just feel like it's gonna backfire so hard. So it's almost like,

it's almost like there's like an optimal amount of insecurity. Yeah. People use, you know, it's like, people use, it's like a little is better than none, I think. Yeah, yeah. I would say that that's not a bad way to look at it. People use imposter syndrome as a proxy for humbleness sometimes because actually manifest in a really sort of similar way. And if it kind of constrains your ego, perhaps the, if the outcome is worthy,

perhaps that's a way to look at it. Seth Gordon said to me that, um, if you're doing something that you've never done before, or that maybe no one's ever done before, of course, you've got imposter syndrome, why wouldn't you, by definition, you're breaking your ground, you're in an area of the terrain that you haven't yet explored. Yeah, and I think there's also there's kind of like a more philosophical element to it too. You know, it's, I know so many smart authors who work so fucking hard and they write great books. And so there's a little bit of a why me, like, you know, kind of a survivorship guilt type thing?

Yeah, almost. Like, I think my books are good, but they're not like 50X better than this other guy. But so why do I get 50X the result? There's something that just seems like strange about that. So yeah, it's weird. It's a weird thing. Right, okay, uncomfortable truths. First one, you don't attract shit into your life and it's not the universe's fault. You probably just That's a good one. I like that one.

I really do as well. But I don't talk about, so here's the thing, man. I don't really talk about boundaries that much. It's never really been one of those terms that I brought into my lexicon of normal daily sense-making use. So what are you talking about? What sort of boundaries? So in terms of boundaries, I mean, in terms of I usually use them in relation to relationships, but it's basically like understanding what you will and will not tolerate in your life. like understanding what you will and will not tolerate in your life.

And, um, and I think a lot of people kind of get, you know, the stuff that I mentioned there, you know, believing the universe is giving you something and blah, blah, blah. Like, a lot of these ideas about like law of attraction or whatever they kind of get close to that. You know, law of attraction tells you like, you know, whatever you think about, that's what you like manifest in your reality. Well, it's more like your expectations tend to partially dictate your behavior and then your behavior is going to partially dictate your reality.

And so if you're expecting to get screwed over all the time, then you're going to behave in such a way in which you kind of invite it into your life. And where this is just fundamentally a boundary issue is that if you simply decide, I will not accept this honesty in my life and I'm going to enforce that boundary by actually eliminating people who are dishonest from being around me. That's actually a healthy way to manage your life. It has nothing to do with the universe. It has nothing to do with like laws of attraction or vibrations or energy or whatever.

It's like, it's simply making a decision. It's deciding, this is something I don't want in my life, so I'm not going to allow it. And it's such a simple concept, but we struggle so much with it. It's one of those things that is very easy to understand, but incredibly difficult to actually enforce. Well, unless you've taken the full non-dual enlightenment red pill and you're walking around part of the substrate of the world, you feel like an actor, right? You feel like an agent that has thoughts

and very much is the center of the universe, because you are. Everything emanates out and comes towards you, even the light. The sun doesn't shine anywhere except for on you as far as you're concerned. And yeah, I think as well, think about how the reticular activating system works.

Like, as soon as you buy a new car, you always notice that new car everywhere. Everyone's got this car. No, you're just looking out for it. And the same goes with this. Like, if you prime someone, this is what guys like Darren Brown and these other sort of quasi illusionist

mind-mental melding people do, right? They just prime people and then they put them into a situation and the brain does the rest. Yeah. Yeah, I mean mean it's our perceptions are highly inaccurate and they're very much affected by the nature of our thoughts and you don't need a magical explanation for that. They're like very logical scientific explanations for that. But it's you know, I think what matters is that people adapt their behavior to it, ultimately.

Next one, stop taking things personally. It's rarely about you. Yeah, I think this is this kind of hearts back to what you just said about everybody's the center of their own universe. You know, like we all, we all experience everything through the lens of our own physical experience. And so it's kind of our default. David Fosch-Rowell says this is great passage in his speech. This is water, where he talks about everything that we experience. It's happening. It's experience like relative to us. It's impossible to experience something as somebody else. And so our default setting psychologically is to assume that until proven otherwise, everything involves us,

where this is just like a highly inaccurate assumption. And it's just something that I've found helpful throughout my life. Especially, it's just something that I've always I found helpful throughout my life It especially you know, it's something I really realized back when I was young and I was dating you know like I I go to a party or something and start chatting with a girl and she kind of blow me off and You know the natural reaction is to just assume like wow, I'm such a loser like if I was a cool guy Like every girl would just immediately want to go home with me. And it's like, no, man, like you don't know what she's going through.

You don't know where she is in her life. Like maybe she just got dumped. Maybe she's seen somebody else. Maybe she's leaving town tomorrow and never coming back. Like, you know, it's not only do not know, but it's also none of your fucking business. Like it's also none of your fucking business. It's like, get out of your own ass and, you know, empathize a little bit. Well, we never claim that for ourselves, right? If somebody said, why did you cut me up in traffic?

You'd say, oh, well, I was late for this thing or I'd do whatever. But when it's someone else, the fundamental attribution Eric kicks in. And you think and you think that guy did it because he's a prick, but I did it. I did it because I'm late for work and they should understand. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it's like when you reject somebody, it's like, you know, you're thinking, you're like, oh, I just don't really have time like meet somebody new right now. But when they reject, it's like, oh, I'm such a loser.

She's a bitch. She's so selfish. Yeah, it really is always about you. Right, man, this is, I really enjoy this one. So you can't get far alone and another one. If you think it's you against the world, chances are, it's just you against yourself. Yeah. against the world chances are it's just you against yourself. Yeah, yeah, I think one thing I think look like the world's an incredibly complicated place

and I talk about this in my book everything is fucked is that like the world is sure that the world's fucked but the world's always been fucked and it's always going to be fucked like there's no Pick a place in history where things were were okay like there's literally not a single moment in history that things were okay And and so it's just I think just conflict and strife and corruption like these are just natural states of human society and and I these are just natural states of human society. And I've just found through the years and through experience and talking to a lot of people that generally the more zealous a person is about some sort of like global cause

about saving the world and ridding the world of evil. Usually the more fucked up that person is themselves. The more dysfunctional their own life is, the more dysfunctional their own relationships, the more dysfunctional their own ability to accomplish goals or get something done. There seems to me to be like a one-to-one relationship between those two things.

So I just think we tend to, like, when you become comfortable with your own flaws and shortcomings, you tend to be more comfortable with the world's flaws and shortcomings. And what about not being able to get far alone? Obviously, as a guy that was quite self-sufficient, stating, and that sort of early life and stuff like that. What happened there? How did you make that kind of pivot? I just found that wherever you get alone, it feels kind of meaningless.

For some reason, I think there's probably an evolutionary explanation for this, but it's accomplishments, isolated accomplishments feel very superficial, whereas like group accomplishments feel very profound and meaningful. You know, it feels much more powerful to do something as a team or to do something for a family or to do something for your partner, then it does just collect accolades for yourself. I had Jordan Peterson on the show and we talked about how to deal with the pain of losing friends as you get older, you grow, people drop away, the ones that were part of your life. And it really struck me some of the comments from people,

and I think this perhaps skews just because YouTube generally invites a type of audience that's maybe a little bit more introspective and doing that kind of self-incurring and perhaps is used to solitude in any case. But I was really surprised at how many people were not bitter, but were a little resentful at the world and were kind of saying, I don't need anybody, I can make it on my own friends, just slow me down. A lot of bits and pieces of feedback like this. And I thought, that's interesting because these people have

come because they know my content and Jordan's as well. I don't think that either of us have really pushed that sort of a rhetoric. If anything, both of us have said try as hard as you can to find relationships that make you feel good. And this is something that's interesting where people like to talk about leaning into discomfort and finding the struggle and overcoming obstacles and stuff like that. But those are only within quite a narrowly defined domain. It's like, I'll deal with the struggles, but I'll deal with them in the gym or I'll deal with them in business or I'll deal with them financially or I'll deal with them existentially or whatever it might be. And then you pull people outside of that and it seems like it correlates. There is a significant minority of people for

whom one of the areas of discomfort that perhaps they're less comfortable with being uncomfortable in is building relationships and so on. Yeah, it's, I used to be like that and I just found, it was funny because, you know, like I just said, the more, the further I said, it's like the more, the further I did get by myself, the more pointless it seemed. And, um, and the more I started the, you know, kind of lament my, my isolation, my social isolation. And I, you know, one of my biggest discoveries in my adult life is what you just said about like taking that same willingness to lean

in to discomfort in other areas of my life to sacrifice and make commitments for my business, you know, the sacrifice, make commitments for my health or for my writing. Like apply that to personal relationships. Like sacrifice and make commitments to my friends, to my wife, to my kids if I have them. And as soon as I stepped into that, it's like the most meaningful and profound thing you can have. It makes everything else seem very trivial, very quickly.

But it's hard to explain that to people. And I think a lot of people who are in that place, they're probably like me, where they've, their history, I had never really had like a healthy close relationship with somebody and until my probably late 20s. You know my family was quite dysfunctional. A lot of my friendships had let me down. My early relationships were very toxic and dysfunctional. My early relationships were very toxic and dysfunctional. So it's something that you can't really see until you get there. So it's hard to describe the people who aren't there.

But if there's anything, I know Peterson believes very, very strongly. Like it's just, there's really no point in less your, there's really no point in doing anything unless you're doing it for something greater than yourself. What's the first step for something like that? Can you remember this first step that you took to transition? You know, I think, Can you remember this first step that you took to transition? I think there's a certain amount of inner work that kind of has to happen first, a certain amount of dealing with your own pain

and beliefs and emotions. I had to reach a certain level of emotional maturity to, and that's not to say that everybody who feels this way is emotionally immature. People have different levels of needs, but for me, I was carrying around a lot of resentment. And there was also a lot of, I took a lot of pride

and being able to do things on my own. You know, the fact that I could pick up and go to another country for like three months and not tell a soul and people are like, oh my God, how would you do that? Like that's terrifying. You know, it's like there was a pride that I could do that. You know, but it's after a certain amount of time

you start to realize that stuff like that is, it's kind of silly, it's ego- to realize that stuff like that is kind of silly. It's ego-based. And so it's silly. And at some point, you just kind of have to get over yourself and realize that it's... I think as you get older, as at least as I got older, you gain enough perspective to be able to look back and see like, wow, the five years I dedicated to that one thing

does not feel important to me anymore. Yet, wow, I really miss my friends. I haven't talked to in five years, you know. And then it starts like thinking in. Might be something to this. Right, next one, next one. You're overthinking it because you assume you're more special than others. Now, I'll add a caveat to that. See, this is a problem with

social media is and this you always get in trouble with this on social media because you try it like social media is optimized for pithiness. Narrow bandwidth thing. Yeah, and you know, is when you compress things like that, obviously you start losing accuracy. So stuff like this, I'll always get in trouble because people will reply those. Well, it's not the only reason you overthink things. Well, yeah, you're right. It's not the only reason you overthink things. Well, yeah, you're right. It's not the only reason you overthink things, but often, it's a reason you overthink things.

You know, I think there's something anxiety itself. And I'm trying to think of a way to say this, that's not gonna sound absolutely horrible. And I'm trying to think of a way to say this that's not going to sound absolutely horrible. There's a fundamental selfishness that kind of comes attached with anxiety. Because when you're anxious, it very much, and it's involuntary, it's not that you're a bad person or that you are a selfish person, but there's an involuntary kind of selfishness that comes packaged with anxiety and that you become overly preoccupied with yourself. And you know, it's this, you kind of become obsessed

with like, what does he think about me or did the thing I say was that stupid or am I going to be a failure or is anybody ever going to like me? And it's always me, me, me, I, I, I, I, I. And there's a real kind of just, you know, I found, you know, kind of dealing with some of my own social anxiety in the past, there's a really profound effect of if you're able to invert that focus and turn it more into compassion or empathy for others, start worrying about wondering what they're worried about. It's like if you're like the anxious mess in a crowded room, who doesn't know anybody, like maybe look around and wonder like, is it other people are likely feeling similar things?

And it's just that simple ability to kind of step outside of yourself, it often alleviates, you know, it removes that sense of specialness, it removes that like, I'm the only one who feels this way. I'm the only one suffering this way. I'm the only one who understands what it's like. And you start realizing that everybody else like has very similar problems or is thinking very similar things

or worried about some of the things. You no longer feel alone in that suffering. Well, the common thought razor is if you have a thought, assume that at least some of the significant minority of people also have it, but the way that our emotions feel, right, they're like, they're like bestowed on us, like curses, individual diseases that have just been given purely to us by some higher power. And this is why when you actually think about how emotions feel Almost all of the stories that kind of ancient religions spoke about you know thinking about how the goddess of lust and an envy and anger and stuff like that

Like of course it makes sense because it feels like it's so much more the phenomenon of having an emotion is so much more than just the wiring going on in your brain. Yeah. And that leads us to have that kind of very self-focused, neurotic view of the world, right? Yeah, and it's interesting too because generally if you look at all the negative emotions, the negative emotions are very self-focused. So anger is always like, I need to, this horrible thing happened to me and now I'm angry. Anxiety is this horrible thing is going to happen to me. Guilt is this horrible thing happened to me in the past. Whereas if you look at positive emotions, it's very outwardly focused. It's very much happiness or joy.

It's kind of this gratitude for the place you're in, the people you're with, the experiences you had. And I don't think that's a coincidence. So, I think that that's, there's a fundamental connection between those two psychological phenomenon and it's probably not not expressed super well in a pithy tweet. All right, next one. The more we seek change, the more meaningless that change becomes. I didn't understand this one.

Yeah, this one didn't go over so well. This was one of those ones that I looked at afterwards, and I'm like, yeah, I probably could explain this better. That was your chance. You know, I would say change isn't the right word. I think novelties, the right word. I was trying to kind of make a point about thrill seeking or novelty seeking. There's a diminishing returns to novelty seeking.

It's like the example I always use is the first time you go to a foreign country, it's like a huge life-changing experience. Even the 10th foreign country you go to is a very exciting experience. But country number 62 is kind of like, oh, okay, sure, whatever. You require generally anything that drives a sense of novelty or excitement requires greater and greater quantities of that experience to get the same feeling, whether that's travel or cocaine or sexual partners or money, whatever it is, social book sales, social media followers, you know, it's like, whatever it is, whatever that dopamine hit is, there's always a diminishing returns to it. So it, so it, they, they make for poor long-term strategies.

The hedonic trademals ahead, hell of a drug man. Absolutely, hell of a drug. Right. To deny negative emotions is to ignore useful feedback from the world. So I wanted to ask how much we should notice our negative emotions if they're good teachers, because Buddhism would instruct us to not identify with them. And some of the good elements of stoicism, which only you have criticisms of, would also suggest detachment, don't fixate or suppress. How can you avoid denying negative emotions to acquire the lessons from them, but then

also not identify with them too much? That seems like a little bit of an oxymoron. Yeah. I mean, I definitely subscribe to kind of the Buddhism slash the racism school thought of like notice emotions, but don't be dictated by them. And I think it's, you know, one of the things I'm highly critical of, you know, kind of a whole positive thinking self-help genre is subgenre is that it often gets interpreted by people as a simple denial of negativity. It's like pretending like everything is great. It's like

the dog in the burning house. This is fine. There's so many uses for it. It's endlessly useful. It's endlessly useful. It is. So the goal is to not deny. People generally have two problems around negative emotions is either they deny it in the first place or they indulge it. They kind of live in it. So they experience their fear or they experience their anger,

but they latch onto it and don't let it go. And so the trick is to be open to it, but also part of being open is to let it leave once it's ready to leave. But I generally, you know, the argument I always use for kind of the denier positive thinking crowd is I, like negative emotions, like they evolve for a reason, like they have survival purposes. And so if you don't, like if you train yourself to never be afraid of anything, like you, you're gonna put yourself in some pretty dangerous situations pretty quickly.

Right, next one. Just because your contrarian doesn't mean your smart I love this one I mean I was probably I was probably a little bit bitter on Twitter when I wrote this one it's just like all these contrarian assholes they give there's so much smarter to everybody else. You know, speaking of McConaughey, like McConaughey had a, one of the parts I really liked about McConaughey's book

is he had this whole section where he was talking about how like, you need to know the rules before you can break the rules. Which, you know, when I was young, I was that I was that guy who just broke every rule. I'm like, rules are stupid. I'm going to break every single one. And you quickly realize that rules exist for a reason. And I think the same thing can be said for institutions, it can be said for cultural norms, it can be said for manners or language. These things, they evolve and they exist for a reason.

And so if you're going to break them, you need to have a good reason. It doesn't mean they're always right, but the default assumption should be that they're right. The default assumption should not be that they're not right. And so it's correct until proven wrong, not the other way around. Well, I mean, how much are we seeing this with the current debate over the COVID vaccine? Like, yeah, I mean, apparently the smartest people on the internet are the ones that have

this super secret gate-kept knowledge with regards to the COVID vaccine. And you think 50% of Americans have had their first dose and 66% of the British citizens have had their first dose. Here's a thing that I found out, which is fucking brilliant, man. Only 20% of the UK population is on Twitter. So even when you think, well, everybody thinks this, even if you were to max out everyone on Twitter to get agreement, you've only got 20% of the UK population.

What the fuck? Yeah, I actually just wrote an article about social media a couple of weeks ago, and I talked about this. It's really fascinating when they analyze social networks, they tend to find kind of the same distribution of users, and they call it the 190 rule, which is basically 1% of the users generate 90% of the content.

9% of the users generate 10% of the content, and then 90% of the users generate 10% of the content, and then 90% of the users generate basically no content, whatsoever. They're just, they're observers. And if you ask yourself, OK, who are the 1% generating than 90% of content? It's a large percentage of those people are in the fucking crack pots.

And in that case, it trolls. And it's one of the big take home points in that article was like, everybody needs to learn that social media is not reality. Social media is a fun house mirror of reality. It reflects reality, but it's different parts are elongated and exaggerated and other parts are kind of minimized. And I think we're not, especially people in the media or people who read a lot of news or follow the media very closely. Like a lot of people have not figured that out yet.

Like this is not reality. It's a really skewed version of it. But yeah, I mean, coming from being an online brand or whatever myself, one thing I learned very early on in my career is if you want clicks, just be contrarian. It's kind of how I got my start as a blogger. I write an article called, you know, it's kind of how I got my start as a blogger. Like I write an article called, you know, you are not special. And sure enough, you would get a shitload of clicks.

And I'd write another one saying, like, you know, fuck positive thinking, get a ton of clicks. So it's, it's a green with something or tearing something down is a great way to get attention. Like, or, you know, coming back to the human perception thing, like we are very biased to notice flaws and negativity much more easily, or give it more attention, or more importance than things that are functioning correctly. And the fact of the matter is, is like if you want to find individual flaws

or failures or inaccuracies and pretty much every institution in the world, you can find plenty of them. They're run by humans. So of course, you're going to find plenty of them. But that doesn't mean we need to overthrow the world order or take down the government, take down the CDC or the FDA or destroy the fed. Like all this shit that people, this legit revolutionary conclusions

that these people are coming to is a disproportionate response to the actual flaws in the system that they're exposed to. Yeah, it needs to be iteration, I think. There's this Donald Nuthquilt, which I always come back to and he says, tradition is a set of solutions for which we have forgotten the problems. Yes, for sure. And you just think, if it's that what the fence in a field analogy, which now actually I don't think works, you know, is a fence in a field and the liberal goes up to it and says, we just need to tear this down, the conservative goes, well, hang on a second, we don't know why it's there,

it might function, might have a purpose. I don't think that that divide occurs anymore. I think that both groups are now looking for revolution by any means. I don't actually know who is pro-institution anymore. Both sides have problems with the same things for completely opposing reasons, but the solution is the same.

Tear it down, it all needs to fuck off. Yeah, it's an interesting way. It's like, it's like the rights, like, let's take a chainsaw to it. And the left is like, fuck, chainsaws, let's blow it up. New key of bomb, yeah, for size three. You know, and they're just arguing, they're like, chainsaws, bomb, chainsaws.

But the funny thing is, is like, this comes back to like the social media not being reality, is like, there's a silent majority of people who do believe in the institutions. They're just not on fucking Twitter. Like, they're taking care of their kids. They're going to work. But even the silent majority on Twitter probably also does as well.

And then yeah, yeah, right. Okay, okay, next one, next one. The secret to success is pain tolerance. Do you not think that success can be easy then? No, if it was easy, then everybody would have it, then it wouldn't be success. Because success is, by definition, something that is, you know, on the extreme,

fuck what's the word I'm looking for. It's something that's extraordinary means something that is not ordinary. It's like beyond ordinaryness. So if you're getting the same result everybody else got, then it's not success. It's not. And I suppose that the success is a function of the discomfort to get there as well, right? The satisfaction of getting to a higher mountain is greater than that of getting to a small mountain because of the challenge that it took you to get to the top. Absolutely. I mean, it's people like, like if you went and climbed Mount Everest and I

went and climbed like whatever shitty hill is an upstate New York, like, you know, who's Who's going to be more impressed? It's just how it works. Right. This one, this one, I really like. The only way to become truly confident in yourself is to be comfortable with what you lack. Yeah. Yeah. Confidence is not hiding what we lack. It's not even, and it's not even exposing what we have.

It's a comfort and a calmness about our shortcomings of valence because we all got them. It's just, it's our relationship to them that kind of determines our mental health. I was speaking to a special forces operative, British one, And he was talking about how all of the guys use quite morbid humor to get past these scary situations and it's this pressure release valve because all of them are shitting themselves, all of them are scared. Like if you don't think it was scared, you're wrong,

but we just have ways of coping with it. And most of them coped with it by making jokes about stuff, by laughing. By laughing about stuff, one guy got a shot, like a single pellet from a shotgun or something went through the meat of his ass cheek and all of them couldn't stop laughing about it. And this guy's got to have, like he's off work

but he's off the unit for, God knows how long and he's got to have stitches and all of these operations to get it fixed. And he was laughing and so is everyone else. Yeah, man, Gallowas humor. Yeah, but it's, you're right as well that confidence from most people isn't due to a presumed lack of capacity it's due to an exaggerated presence of insufficiency.

Yeah. Yeah, embracing that is the solution. Yeah, and I think it's easy to mistake. You know, there's a lot of people in the world compensate for their lack or their flaws by overly boasting about their successes or their positive traits. And I think people wrongly attribute that to confidence. If somebody is like, I'm the best, so and so ever, I'm the best mountain climber ever. Man, that guy's confidence. It's like, no, the best, so and so ever, I'm the best mountain climber ever. Like, man, that guy's confidence. Like, no, it's actually quite the opposite. It's, he has to say that,

or else he doesn't feel comfortable actually going and doing it. If he was confident, he wouldn't have to say it. It's like, where I grew up, we have a group in Texas, we have a lot of corny, southern sands. One of those, the smallest dog, barks the loudest. And it's like, yeah, if you've gotta, if you gotta tell everybody you're rich, you're not rich. Like, you gotta tell somebody,

if you gotta tell everybody how smart you are, you're not smart. You know, you either are or you won't, or you aren't. Right, we're into the meat of it now. This is my favorite section. So, if all your relationships have the same problem, you are the problem. Yeah. How did this one go down? You know, you know, it's funny. So this was originally, I wrote a short article. I wrote a short article, I think in like 2012 or 13,

and it was called, it was called like, all the reason you're still single. And I published it on Valentine's Day. And I just got like a sick pleasure out of that. It basically said it was like, look, all these problems, you think all your partners have or all the people you date have, like guess what, you know, the only thing they have in common is you.

Comment on them. But I repost that probably about once a year in different places and different Valentine's Day. Just let's schedule every February 14th from now until the end of time. I had a pretty sick thing going on my blog with Valentine's Day. Let's schedule every February 14th from now until the end of time. I had a pretty sick thing going on my blog with Valentine's Day for a while. I did that one year and then I think the next year I did a how to break up with somebody like guide on Valentine's Day.

I did a bunch of kind of fucked, dark humor type things. But yeah, I repose that one quite frequently because I mean, I always get a lot of people get mad at me when I post it a lot of, you know, because everybody's got that, well you don't understand, my ex is different, you know. Well, all four of them have the exact same problem that you happen to be the single thread, but they don't know each other,

they're not even in the same city. And yet they all ended in the same way, but it's all their fault, not yours. Yeah. Okay. It's, it's always, I'm always, you know, I, so I get lots and lots of emails over the years. And, and I'm always amused that the people who get really upset at my relationship advice, they're, they always send emails like this long. the people who get really upset at my relationship advice,

they always send emails like this long, and it's always like, well, you don't understand, my situation is different, and then they go on the tell this like, five stage, five page sob story about, God knows what, and in every case, it's exactly the same. It's like, no, you're still the problem. You're just, you know, but yeah, it's also, I keep posting it because it is such a powerful

realization. It was very powerful in my own life and I've, you know, just heard from hundreds of people at this point who told me the same thing that it was very powerful for them to hear as well. So I'm willing to deal with a little bit of hate to get the good word out. Doing God's work. Right. Lots of people who are still single but want a relationship simply have absurd expectations. Yes. I think one of the problems with, I mean, look, like, I think one of the problems with I mean look like I think one of the side effects of the internet like kind of the effects that the internet has had on cultures that it's exposed us to the most extraordinary aspects of society, you know, so it's if you're interested and you know Mountain climbing you can like go on YouTube and find amazing videos of people

somebody in Everest like Weft-Rite and Center. So, I feel like this is without us realizing it is skewed or expectations for our own lives. It's kind of like moved the goal back about 50 yards from where it would normally be without us necessarily even recognizing it. I think this applies to dating as well. Because you have access to so many people through dating apps or online or whatever, you start developing these unrealistic standards of what a partner should be. People develop these insane checklists of, they need to be a concert pianist and they

need to have a PhD and they need to be a part-time model and they need to speak six languages. It's like, good luck luck man like good luck. So I just I think some of us we need to be brought down the earth. I wonder whether as well. Part of it is just that we we constantly are looking for something that's going to fill the hole. And perhaps by setting our standards so absurdly high, we never actually have to enter the world of a relationship with people. Also, here's another thing, man. How much do you think this is because we live in a meritocracy?

Like if you teach people that they can become anything that they want to be, your success is completely yours to bear, why shouldn't everyone want to try and date Angelina Jolie? Well, I can become anything I want to be. I can date anyone I want to want. Yeah, I think it's, there's kind of a missing counter narrative to meritocracy or not counter, but like a kind of a parallel narrative

that needs to exist where it's like, at some point you need to to like pick your spot to be satisfied. Well, to the hill that you're gonna get married on, yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. Like it's and this comes back to what we were talking about earlier about like this kind of unwillingness to sacrifice and commit for others.

Like it's the thing that makes a relationship strong is the ability to be like, okay, I see what's wrong with you, but I'm gonna love you anyways. Like, getting to that point is what makes the relationship work, but I just think fundamentally the way the incentives and culture is set up right now. It's like, it's harder never for people to get to that point. Yeah, you classed yourself as an ardent, zealot of marriage. Have you got any advice for young guys who want to

kind of transition from fuckboy to fatherhood? Fuckboy to fatherhood. Be a good book title. It would be. be good book title. It would be. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I do want to say I'm not I'm not I'm not a I'm not a zealot for marriage, but like I I think it's underrated these days and I think there's not enough people arguing for it, especially especially in my generation. I would say that you know to make that transition it's kind of the best piece of advice I've come across is asking people, because when you're dating a lot of people, part of the excitement is there's so much diversity of dating experience. Like you date people with different backgrounds,

different ethnicities, different nationalities, different professions, all this stuff. Like it's a very exciting time to kind of like sample the buffet of what's out there. But at a certain point, like when you want to get serious, the thing I always ask people is I say like, okay, what are your three non-negotiables? Like what are the three things that like you? Just cannot be with a person if they don't have them? I've noticed that people who really struggle to name those three things, they're just lost on this hamster wheel of dating the next person who pops up on Tinder. But like you really need to figure out like what are your non-negotiables? What are the things that you really can't live

without a, without in a partner? And then figure out if those are good non-negotiables, you know, they're bad things you can kind of put in those three spots. But generally it's going to be stuff like, you know, honesty or trustworthiness, you know, for me intelligence is huge. Like, I need to feel like a good conversation. You know, and for me too, it's ambition. I just find, I make very, very attracted to ambitious women. I don't, I always get frustrated, you know, whenever I dated women who weren't super ambitious, I'd get very frustrated. So it's like, part of it's just learning through the active dating.

But then once you have them, you look for those non-negotiables, and then you just don't worry about the other things. Because it's, I think, part of the trap of the dating environment these days is like, you know, it's like, well, she's really great at these four or five things, but, you know, she's got pointy elbows and I prefer redheads and, you know, she's from California,

and I don't want to travel to meet her family. You know, like it's shit like that that people, like, you know, move on from potentially really good relationships. And so it's like, get your three non-negotiables and then just fucking forget everything else. Like just, just look for those three things. What do you think people should stop believing about relationships? Are there any sort of common myths that you think most people hold? Um, I think people mistake, uh, I think people mistake compromise for settling. You know, there's a strong, I've noticed that a lot of people, especially younger people

have this strong, like ethos of like, I'm never going to settle. Like I'm not going to settle for somebody who doesn't make me happier. And that's fine. Like you shouldn't settle for a person who, you know, has it, like somebody you're not attracted to, for instance. But at the same time, it's like any functional relationship requires compromise and compromise. Reve requires you for going some of your own happiness to create, you know, more general happiness among both of you in the long run. And I think a lot of people just mix up those two things. You know, I've talked to a lot of people who have ended relationships for like, in my mind, it's just like insanely dumb reasons, you know. It's like, oh, well, she wanted to move, you know, her, her company wanted to move her to another city.

And I don't want to deal with that. And it's like, well, dude, you like a month ago, you were telling me how in love you were. Like, he's like, yeah, but I don't want to settle for somebody who like, it's just like, they're not even, it's like, yeah, she wants me to travel there every two months or something. And it's like, I don't have time for that. It's like, okay, this is why you're single. You're literally not prioritized. I do.

You wonder why you're single, decade after decade, it's because you don't fucking prioritize your relationships. That's really simple. I mean, think about it, man, there's even subcultures and lingo around what people shouldn't do when they get that kind of pushback in relationship. So for girls, it's like clapping back, right? Or for guys, it's not being a simp or not being a cook or not being like a

soy boy or whatever, like not being weak. And you think, like if both of these things are happening because they're coming at it, these are two very, very polarised types of approaches to relationships, men want sexual variety, women want sort of commitment. And somehow both of them have arrived at like the same conclusion, it's the same as the left and right thing that we were talking about before. And the thing that I can only think about is that one of the things, perhaps, is an

increasingly ubiquitousness of people being exposed to perfect, seeming relationships on social media, in press, so on and so forth. And in romance movies, one of the few places that kind of the cancel culture mob hasn't yet gotten to is that most relationships should finish with a happy ending. Like, and she built her business and made a billion dollars and lived happily ever after. Like that's not really usually the way that the story ends. Sure. So I'm wondering whether or not people, again, the unrealistic expectations thing that we're

talking about and kind of this, yeah, this conflation that anything shy of absolutely perfect is you being taken for a ride. Yeah, well, it's, so there are people who have always, and this is true of men and women, but you know, in the dating realm, men and women, you see the same patterns, but it plays out with different language and different, it's expressed with different language. But like, everything you just listed, I mean, it's basically seen relationships as a power game. And one thing I've written before is that like the definition of unhealthy relationship is when people see it as a power, like people perceive the relationship to be a power struggle.

It's always like, who is, has more influence, who is getting their way more than the other person, who is getting what they want from the other person. Any relationship, romantic, friendship, business relationship, any relationship you approach as a power game, as like a zero sum power game, it's by definition toxic, it's gonna harm your life, it's gonna harm the other person's life, even if you're winningum power game. It's by definition toxic. It's going to harm your life. It's going to harm the other person's life. Even if you're winning that power game, it's going to harm your life and it's

going to harm the other person's life. A healthy relationship is the way I describe it is, is both people are act unconditionally, which is basically like look like we're equals. We both wanna be happy. We both want the other person to be happy. So what do we need to do to make that happen? And sometimes that might mean, you know, in the case like my wife and I, maybe that means, like, maybe a couple of times it means I give up something or I don't do something.

Couple of times it means she gives up something and she doesn't do something. Like, there's no scorecard here. Like there's no, we're not keeping Italian. It's not a transaction, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're not adding up who gave up more win or whatever. It's like, you know, maybe one, if she's having a tough year,

maybe I give up more that year. If I'm having a tough year and five years, she gives up more that year. Like it's that, don't, you don't ask those questions or try to count those things because it's the act of counting itself that undermines the relationship. And it's funny too because a lot of the dating advice industry, both for men and for women, focuses on that scorecard. It's like, there was a book in the 90s called The Rules, which was all about, it was teaching women,

stuff like don't pick up the phone the first time he calls, or get up and go to the bathroom when the check comes, or something to make him pay it, stuff like that. And it's basically teaching women how to, how to tally it, like, win more points on the scorecard. But it doesn't realize it's teaching them to have toxic relationships with people. And it's the same thing with the game in 2005 with the whole pickup artist thing. It's the exact same. It was teaching men how to win at the scorecard. And look at fucking, look at Neil Strauss now. Yeah, look at, look at me. I mean, and the thing is, I mean, Neil made it out better than most of those guys.

Like, it's, I mean, talk about train wreck on top of train wreck. So it's, and I, you know, I was part of that world when I was young and it took me a couple of years, but I soon figured out, I'm like, that world when I was young and it took me a couple years, but I soon figured out I'm like, man, this is not going to end well. Like, sure, I'm getting laid a lot, but like, this is not, like, it's not making me happy. It's not, it's not making, you know, the women I'm, I'm hooking up with are not happy people. Like, this is, this is a dead end. I need to find a different road. That's the ultimate red pill about pick a party street and kind of the whole

mechanism movement at large and there has to be an equivalent for women I just don't know what it's called. And this is why your first book models is I've just completed yes everyone that's listening I've just finished the reading list today. So there's a hundred books and there's taken me fucking ages, man. It took so long. And the only book, the only book that's specifically about dating and pick up on that is models. And the fundamental reason is that pick a part of history and the female equivalent of it is teaching you tactics to appear like an attractive mate, but it doesn't make you an attractive mate. Like, it's the same as going to a powerlifting competition

and wearing a secret mechanical exoskeleton that allows you to pick the weight up, you win, you get the gold medal, but you're still not that strong. And if anyone asks you to replicate that again, you can't do it without all of the tactics that you have. And I think pick apart history as well actually causes a lot of men to lose confidence because what they see is the chasm between what the girl is attracted to in this caricature, the alter ego that they've created for themselves and who they actually think that they are. This gap, the delta between those two is fucking huge. Yeah.

I mean, it's obviously it objectifies women. When you treat them as objects to be manipulated by using lines and stories and whatever, you're objectifying them, which is bad for them. But what men don't realize is that they're objectifying themselves as well. So it's, they're choosing to ignore who they really are, what they really want, what they really believe in, what they're really attracted to. And instead, adopting a fake persona, adopting scripted lines, a scripted identity essentially, kind of like downloading an identity on them selves, to just get this, to get a real world result, to get like, to get laid a few times. Well, first of all, not only does it make the sex horrible, because, because, first of all,

it only attracts women who are also hiding their real selves, who are also don't have the confidence to show up authentically, who don't, who have low self esteem and are very needy. So it brings two emotionally unhealthy people together to kind of do this performance where at least for the pickup artists, the goal is sex. But because sex is such a vulnerable and intimate experience, it's really unenjoyable, like 99% of the time. Super performative. Yeah. And so you get the little ego boost,

you're like, oh, okay, I got laid now. But yeah, I think in the long run, it makes guys feel very empty, and feel very lost. And so my book models was very much written. I wrote it specifically to kind of, to be like the antidote to that. You know, I had spent some time in that community and then I kind of got out, but I still coach men's cavemen stating advice, still coach men. And I just started to realize like, you know, most of these guys, like their problem is

not that they don't know what to text a girl or that they don't know where to take her on a date. That's not the problem. The problem is they don't believe in themselves. They don't stand for anything. They don't have an identity. They don't have social skills. Deal with these fundamental things first. The dating stuff will just take care of itself. Models was very much like, I felt like there was not an emotionally healthy guide

to men's dating in the world. And so I wanted the right one that would help men, but also do it in a way that they don't have to sacrifice their self-worth. Is there anything that you changed from it or that you think you missed? Looking back now, whatever, seven years later on, you thinking, that would be awesome to add that in. I revised it twice.

So I revised it once and, so it came out 2011, I revised it in 2012. And most of that revision was kind of just making it, getting rid of the typos like making it a little bit professional because it was it was in rough shape when I first released it and then when I revised it again in 2016 I was actually pleasantly surprised that like probably 95% of it I still stood by and felt really good about The one that the revision in, I kind of updated it because the original version was slanted. I wrote it when I was like 26. So it was still slanted more towards like

being a single guy, going out and partying, hooking up. I wanted it to be kind of relationship neutral. So it's like if you just want to get laid, that's fine. If you want to get married, that's also fine. So I revised it to kind of speak to everybody. And then the other thing, the thing that really surprised me, but models developed a real among women and among LGBT people. And so I kind of edited, there were little like simple examples or lines and stuff here and there that I kind of edited just to like be applicable to a broader audience.

Cause the central concepts of the book are universal. Like the things that make ultimately drive human relationships and make people happy in human relationships and turn people on are pretty universal. If they're just expressed slightly differently based on gender and then they're expressed slightly differently based on sexual orientation. And so I wanted to just make the book,

even though it's written for men, I wanted to make it as universal as possible. Got you. Right. What do you think people are giving too many fucks about that they shouldn't? Whatever's been posted on Twitter. Fine, fine. That is. I think I can get universal agreement from everybody. Yeah, period. Yeah, full stop. Man, thank you so much for coming on. This will, just will, November 9th. And dude, I'm so, I'm so gassed for that. Awesome.

Like really, what a cool project you have worked on. And yeah, I can't wait for that to come out. Yeah, me too, man. Well, look, dude, markmanston.net for all things you models and subtle art and everything else will be linked in the shownut, below if everyone wants to check that out. And what are your socials? People want to follow you on that? Twitter is I am Mark Manson Instagram is just Mark Manson.

And then I think Facebook's Mark Manson net. Does anyone use Facebook anymore? No, nobody uses Facebook anymore. But old people use Facebook. Oh, and I'm also on I'm also I have a YouTube channel now as well. So I do I do a few videos each month. So check that out. Brother, thank you so much.

Thank you, Ren. It was fun.