Modern Wisdom - #358 - Dr Samantha Boardman - Positive Psychology's Lessons For Coping With Stress

Episode Date: August 14, 2021

Dr Samantha Boardman is a psychiatrist and an author. Divorces, bankruptcies and moving house are major stresses. But what about the micro-stressors we deal with every day, how much do they contribute to diminishing our wellbeing and what can we do to stop that from happening? Expect to learn which activities studies say are most effective for making you resilient to stress, how to break a downward spiral in your growth, why discomfort is a feature not a bug, how creating a persona can give you confidence and much more... Sponsors: Get £70+ of free upgrades on amazing design work from 99designs by Vistaprint at https://99designs.com/modernwisdom (discount automatically applied) Get 20% discount on the highest quality CBD Products from Pure Sport at https://puresportcbd.com/modernwisdom (use code: MW20) Extra Stuff: Buy Ready For Anything - https://amzn.to/3lS5wpR Follow Samantha on Twitter - https://twitter.com/sambmd  Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yes, team, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Dr Samantha Bordman, she's a psychiatrist and an author. Devourses, bankruptcies and moving house and major stresses, but what about the micro stresses we deal with every day? How much do they contribute to diminishing our wellbeing and what can we do to stop that from happening? Today, expect to learn which activities studies say are most effective for making a resilient distress, how to break a downward spiral in your growth, why discomfort is a feature not a bug, how creating a persona can give you more confidence and much more. The bottom line is that most of the stresses that we actually encounter are the small ones. They're the getting stuck in traffic, the dropping coffee on ourselves, and those are the

ones that we actually have control over. The huge catastrophes, if we were able to get out of their way, we probably would, but we don't, because we can't. So we need to make ourselves as resilient as possible by controlling the stresses that we can. Before I get to other news, thank you to everyone who's reached out and said that they're really enjoying the modern wisdom reading list. It did take me ages, so hearing that it's adding tons of value to people's lives is great. And if you haven't got your copy, then what are you doing with your life and your face? Get your face, take it to chriswolex.com slash books. But now it's time for the wise and wonderful Dr. Samantha Bordman.

You're a practicing psychiatrist. What have been some of the most common trends that you've seen over the last year? Interestingly, at the very beginning of the pandemic, I was really worried about some of my patients who have a lot of anxiety. And here's what happened is a lot of them felt unbelievably prepared for the pandemic. They told me that they were giving advice to their worried well friends who typically would say to them, why are you so anxious? What worries you all the time? You should come out more.

And it was really interesting that they had a lot of strategies that they used. They had a lot of, you know, they would use CBT. They sort of knew how to manage their anxiety. And so they found themselves in this position of being advice givers and that their experience was sort of helping somebody else. And as one of my patients said to me, like, you know, I've been doing this all my life. Like I've been ready for this for the past 20 years, and so I'm ready to go.

And I think that that was a surprise for sure. And giving that sort of some strength. But of course, I mean, uncertainty was obviously what was really difficult for people. But what I tried to work with them on is how certainty is such an illusion anyway, and what we sort of imagine in our lives and being able to predict what tomorrow is going to be. So my hope is that emerging from this, that there has been some growth, some focus on what has one gained. And even some post-traumatic growth is that we've actually seen. You can only really talk about post-traumatic growth in afterwards. It's an outcome, and I think

we're very much mid-pandemic right now. So it's hard to look at, we can't really say in retrospect, but I've had them sort of working. What are the ways? What are the factors that contribute to post-traumatic growth? And we can get into that, or we can talk about that later. What about lockdown shame? Have you seen any people feeling like they should have could have done more, I haven't been as productive as I ought to have been? There's been so much of that, regret. There's nothing worse than that guilt. much of that, like regret. And there's nothing worse than sort of that guilt. That wide and eyes managed learn how to speak Mandarin and why didn't I learn how to somebody on your podcast

was saying maybe like climate ever is on their staircase or something. I mean, what an accomplishment. But I think a lot of people think, God, I just did nothing. I didn't get anything done. But that has so much to do with the way our brains work is that we're so good at noticing what is left undone.

Like, we're so good at seeing what we haven't completed. And there was a researcher in Vienna in the 1930s, Dr. Zagarnik, who noticed that when waiters were working in restaurants and serving tables, they had an amazing ability to remember the orders, the multiple orders that were open. Though once an order was completed and people had paid the check and left, it would just be obliterated from their memory. They had no idea. Like if you said to them, what did those people have again? They would have no idea. But they could remember the orders that were sort of half complete. Like that person still needs a coffee, that one needs some cake.

And so what this is is our, we're so good at remembering sort of what's undone, but not particularly good at remembering what we've accomplished. And so I mean, I think this can work for us and against us too, and it can work for, you know, against us when it comes to regret, like, why didn't I do this, or I had on my to-do list, to write that screenplay, to get in shape, to quit smoking, and all those things, but we're really bad at focusing on what we have completed. And again, that's an intentional deployment issue, right? I mean, it's like, how would it, what are you seeing? If you do sort of ask yourself to remind yourself, like, what did I check

off that list today? And I think that can sort of help people just getting through the pandemic. You know, maybe did you, you know, did you speak more to your kids than you ever have before? Did you like deepen your relationship with your spouse during this period? What maybe did you accomplish? And I think refocusing attention is a really big part of that. It's going to be so conscious, though.

You're not going to do that just on a whim. You're not going to remember that you spoke to your kids a little bit more or got to spend some more time with your spouse, but forget the fact that you didn't get in shape or didn't learn Mandarin. It's got to be quite effortful. Well, that's the only... I thought it would just find to be just so interesting about how our brains work anyway, is how our inability to sort of clock the good stuff.

And we, unless you're sort of effortful about it, and it's wonderful, I think philosopher at University of Chicago, and he calls it delight hunting. And unless you're actually registering things that are beautiful or you know sort of interesting, that just sort of pass through you and those sort of you won't even filter them. But if you even just write it down or like wow that was sort of a cool bird I just saw or like that tasted so good that thing I just ate. And you share it with somebody else. It does shift. It becomes this uplift and we know that positive emotions kind of help buffer.

You know, we're talking about a lot of like hassles and things like that. When you just experience as positive emotions that you do have like a different level, like a scaffolding against just the annoyances that are just flying at you every day. Doesn't Rick Hansen say something similar to that in hardwiring happiness? I'm sure that he talks about the fact that when you do something nice or that you're proud of, you need to sit with it in your mind for 10 seconds, and that that actually is long enough to lay down the myelin sheets around the neural pathways, and then over time it actually becomes easier to be more and more grateful. But yeah, I mean, here's a perfect example.

Think about the last thing that you didn't complete and how long you ruminated over that. And then think about the last thing that you did complete and think about how fleetingly you allowed that sensation to occur. It was more like a relief than pleasure. Whereas on the other side, it's more like guilt or shame as opposed to encouragement. So the bad things are always felt much more harshly and they last longer and then the good things are so much more brief and they don't have as much impact. No, and so how do we sort of refocus our attention to be more deliberate about it? Because it just won't sit with us.

I mean, I can tell you about the thousand things I'm bad at. You go and you have a conversation with your boss or your manager and they'll tell you, you know, some pretty nice things, the only thing you'll remember is the criticism. And that's just how our brains work. And in some ways, it can be productive too. It's sort of that's, you know, knowing what's unfinished, like that unfinished business is maybe what we'll motivate you to focus on and maybe you won't procrastinate as much. But I think being deliberate about delight is really, really important and sharing it with

someone else because then it does imprint somehow, I think, on your brain. I think it is myelin sheaths, that it's creating a memory of it, going beyond that fleeting moment, because otherwise we're just tumbleweeds, we're just kind of being blown about by all these other whims, and sort of in the mercy of our brains

that are afraid of anything negative. So, yeah, I'm really interested in how do you clock delight? What are micro stresses? Micro stressors are a really potent form of stress and I think we tend to ignore them. They're the everyday like hassles and frustrations like the just those annoyances that you can't control. It's the traffic jam, it's a spilled coffee,

it's just those irritations. And you know, we often think that the that it's really like the big life events that are the most distressing to us and that take the most out of us and the biggest toll. Well, it turns out that actually we're pretty resilient to most of those, to loss, to change, to inflection points. And most of the research suggests that we were we we were cover we bounced back from those even for instance after 9-11 in New York City there was an expectation

that people would have post you know traumatic stress disorder and that'd be a huge amount of resources that were earmarked for a treatment turned turned out six months later, it was minimal. And so we know that resilience is actually the default, not to those big life events, but to those little stuff, that accumulation of those micro stressors that happen every single day, they accumulate, they grow, and look, nobody's bringing you a casserole because you got struck in a traffic jam, right? Like nobody's bringing you a casserole because you've got struck in a traffic jam, right? Like nobody's like, oh, tell me more about your delayed flight. That sounds so interesting. So I think you don't have the social support around it, but

in all these studies show that those little hassles and microswrestlers add up so much and take the biggest toll on your physical health and also on your mental health cardiovascular, on your physical health and also on your mental health cardiovascular, takes cardiovascular toll, but also on your immune system. Like they know, I think it's a Carnegie Mellon University, it's Dr. Cohen there, and he'll take the flu virus to his port graduate students. They get on a Q-tip, they get the flu virus stuck up their nose. And then he measures, puts them basically in a hotel room and measures who comes down with a flu and who doesn't.

Well, during periods of stress before exams and when they're stressed out, they're much more likely to come down with the symptoms of the flu to feel worse, their feelings are worse about it. And even the pork brad students have to measure their tissues with the amount of snot inside them. And that sort of determines how symptomatic they are. But when they've just come back from vacation and this happens, they don't feel like they are much more less likely to get sick. So I think those those who have

a lot of daily stress in their lives, you know, even after watching like a football game or something and your team loses, you might actually also still more vulnerable to catching a cold, but also people who report more stress in their daily lives are much more likely long-term to have depression or anxiety. So I feel that it's something that we don't pay enough attention to, and instead of the big-ar resilience that is our default, I think we need more little R resilience to deal with the micro stressors. It seems quite counter-intuitive that I think I would need

quite a bit of convincing to believe that compounding coffee spells over a period of time would equate to a divorce. But what I'm going to guess is that most of the big challenges that you can up against, the loss, the financial problems, the job changes, the vast majority of those are going to be either out of your control or only sort of analogously within your control. And that means that actually the way that you do deal with the coffee spills and all of the rest of it is going to give you perhaps a little bit more in the tank so that you can deal with the big life events when they come.

I think exactly what you're saying, like, what's in the tank? Because we know even with trauma or even with everyday stress, it's your perception of it. It's not actually the event itself. It's how you experience it. To be, do you, is this a, you know, something that's truly, like, not everybody will have the same response that you will. And I had a patient years ago who had a lot of anxiety and he sort of performance anxiety.

And he had been asked to, you know, he'd been promoted and he said we need to give talks every week to his staff. And he would say the worst thing would happen to me. Whenever every Monday, I'm just sweating my heart's racing. I just can't breathe. I've got these beads of sweat pouring down my face. My palms are all sweaty and shaky. It's just the worst thing ever.

And one day, he was watching Bruce Springsteen on a talk show. And he's Bruce Springsteen's being asked, what's it like to perform in front of 20,000 people in Bruce's? It's just the best feeling. My heart's racing, my hands get all clammy and sweaty, my knees are shaking, I've got these butterflies in my stomach and I know it's my body telling me that I am ready to rock. And so you have these almost identical physiological experiences and yet completely different interpretations of them.

And so it really was sort of this insight for my patient at the time thinking, well, wait a minute, like maybe is this my like information instead from my body and noticing how that interpretation or perception of something makes it stressful or not. And then also having, as you say, that fuel in the tank, like, have you slept well? Are you moving? Are you eating well? You know, did you have a fight with your spouse on the way out the door this morning? You know, or what are you doing to kind of create that scaffolding and that buffer around you? Is that what you mean when you say discomfort is data? Absolutely. You know, I'm, I, I study positive psychology. I, you know, I've a degree in psychiatry and I went to medical school, but then I said positive psychology. But I'm not, I don't,

I don't, I'm not a big believer in the like the rainbows and unicorns. Like some stuff sucks. And, you know, I, I think there's an intolerance right now of negative emotions. They're sort of like, well, you've got to just got to either treat it, take a, we got a pill for that, or, you know, people don't want to really hear about it in some way. So it's so important, I think negative emotions are so valuable.

And to even see only what you learn also, like if you're an interesting study who's looking at people who just don't process it and just kind of sweep it under the rug and move on, like they don't learn from them. And if you actually want to change and grow and sort of at least grow in the right direction, you've got to be processing these negative emotions

and feeling what you feel. There's a lot of research right now looking at granularity, so you don't just like try not to just look at an overwhelming feel of not good. What specifically are you feeling right now? Can you put that into words? Is there an amazing word that does this for you? I don't speak German, but German has amazing words for everything that I think the English language fails miserably at. But once you can pinpoint that thing, it becomes a little bit less overwhelming, it's less personal, it feels less pervasive, and less permanent. And you can actually then narrow it down, put that spotlight on it, and now say, okay, now what? Like, what's the action you're going to take about it? And it's less paralyzing, I think,

then when you just have that overall feeling of badness, because I think we have a lot to learn from negative emotions. It's, they're very helpful. I'm a big fan. Sam Harris has a thought experiment where he talks about reframing an experience that's going on within the body or within the mind. He says, imagine that you've just completed a workout,

a hard, high intensity interval session or something, and your heart rates high and your body's unbelievably hot, super uncomfortable. You're sweating everywhere, you're panting, you can't breathe, you're red in the face, you want to lie on the floor. If that just happened spontaneously as you were sat in your car, you would feel terrified. You'd think that I'm having a heart attack. This is, there is something unbelievably wrong here. And yet, people go to the gym literally to chase that feeling. That's what they're after. So if that doesn't show that framing is, is everything and that leaning into

discomfort, like one of the mantras that I've learned over the last year is that the reason that you're here is for the discomfort. So when you feel that, just reminding yourself, look, this is why you're here. When you're in the gym and your legs start to burn, this is why you're here. When you're training and you start to run out of breath, this is why you're here.

When you're doing an assignment for university or completing a presentation for work and it gets difficult, that's the reason that you're doing it. That is the proximal zone of development. That's you pushing the boundaries of what you can do. It's getting beyond your current. If all it was was comfort, there would be no growth. But inevitably the first reflex response to something that's uncomfortable is, I don't like this, I want it to stop. I'm tired, stupid, dumb, not fit enough, not smart enough, not clever enough, not erudite enough, whatever it might be.

I don't have the things, the requisite skills. It should be easier. But when you can see, okay, discomfort isn't just a bug it to feature. And on top of that, it's why you're here, like you're literally here to get to the discomfort. That's the signal of growth. As soon as you realize that, I think everything changes, caveat to that, I'm still really dramatic during every workout that I ever do. I still procrastinate

all the time. My point is that when you can remain metacognisant enough to allow that to happen, it's a game changer. Well, yes, and I that, I think one of your podcasts I was listening to was just the active standing in line, like what's more painful than that, and just like the thought of just standing in lines and waiting without even, even when you got to the front, you just go to the back again. But actually, I think that's where you sort of see it as all a process and not so outcome-driven. And, you know, I'm thinking of Kelly Lambert, who does this cool research at the University of Richmond, and she studies

rats that we have an uncanny resemblance, I think, to rats in many ways. And when you give rats, apparently they love fruit loops. It's like the greatest rat delight in the world. And so some rats, she, like sort of buries this fruit loop once a day under all their bedding. And so I feel like, you know, go runging through their beds to get it. And it takes work. It's a little bit uncomfortable, but they push themselves to do this. And then the other rats, they're just basically handed their fruit loop on a silver platter. And she calls them her trust fund rats. And so when these rats though are challenged in some way, like they're putting a different

kind of cage or they're asked to swim, apparently rats don't really like to swim that much, but they will do it. The trust fund rats immediately give up, like they have no, like they're just like, eh, I'm done, they can't figure it out. Whereas the ones who have been used to sort of being uncomfortable and rummaging and putting this sort of effortful behavior into getting their fruit loop are much more likely to persevere. Like they try many more times to get into,

to reach the fruit loop and stuff. And so I think there is, maybe we are, we have a lot to think about with the rats, but actually putting ourselves in those places of discomfort and unease. And look, it's not where I think our society goes and certainly in child care these days, it's all about are you comfortable?

It's like the helicopter, the snow plow, anything to avoid discomfort or stress. And we know there is a good amount of stress that Yorkies, Dodson, Curve where you look at like, would our peak performance is when we're a little bit stressed out? So, so, like, what's the right dose? It's obviously different for different people and it has a lot to do with what you said, filling up your tank to begin with.

What can people do if they're having a crap day? Let's say that someone's just, it's been micro stress or after micro stress or the coffee, the dog poo, the on the shoe, the bad conversation with the boss. What should people do? Well, I think you're, so sometimes our inclination in those moments I know mine is, is just to be like, I need to order pizza or have like a bottle of wine and I'm going to cancel my plans with friends and binge watch TV and stay up late at night. I'm constantly amazed by our ability to undermine our well-being

and actually do the very opposite of the thing we would actually would make us feel strong in those moments. But that's exactly when it is those moments to think of, like, okay, what would make me feel strong here? And it is usually like, what are you gonna eat for dinner tonight? Are you do really need to have that drink or that vodka at this moment? Go to the gym.

But we know with behaviors that whatever it is that you want to do, make it easier on yourself. Lower the activation energy for the thing that you want to do. If you already have your sneakers on, if you already, or you've got your gym clothes on, you're much more likely to go or your gym bags packed to go to the gym than if you have to like go through the motions of getting it. Google had done that cool experiment. They used to give all of the, I think employees, you could have like an enlist access to M&Ms. And so you were, like, apparently, people at Google were eating so many M&Ms and they were displayed in these beautiful,

like, glass jars and every kitchen, like, or on every floor. And so they kind of have this M&M problem. They're like, what do we do? And they have these behavioral scientists come in and they said, well, if you get rid of the M&M, people will be really pissed off and they'll be immune. But why don't we just put the healthier snacks a little bit lower down on the shelves? And so they're kind of within reach. And let's put those beautiful M&Ms in an opaque container really like out of reach. And people are so lazy to begin with. So it just decreased, I think M&M consumption by about 70%.

So whatever is the behavior that you want to do at the beginning of the day, you can't rely on motivation. We know motivation comes and goes. You might be like in the morning, you're so motivated to go to the gym and eat well and do all those things that you want to do. But at the end of the day, you might be like in the morning, you're so motivated to go to the gym and eat well and do all those things you want to do, but at the end of the day you might not be. So make it easier to do the behavior you want and then you're much more likely to follow through with it. What was that Harvard study about different activities that reduce stress?

Oh, that was a great, I mean, I was fascinated by this. You know, so in medical school, you know, I was so focused on what was going wrong with people. That's what you do. It's all about diagnosing people's problems and coming up with them. I've got a medication for that. Maybe you should talk to somebody. You percuss lungs, you palpate prostates, you osculate abdomens. In medical school, I did the same thing.

Palpate prostates. You palpate prostates truly. I did the same thing. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate.

I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I'll pay to prostate. I and practice on them. I mean, I guess, I mean, I guess, actors come in. What and everybody gets to have a go. I think actually there were three of them here that I did it.

But yeah, because I was a hundred people. And they were 33.3 fingers per person. You are kidding me. This isn't, this isn't true. 3.3 fingers per person. You are kidding me. They were very good sports. This isn't true. They were really good sports. And we had to sort of go through like the role playing of like, how were you? It's nice to see you today.

And it was, um, oh my God. That's how you do it. Imagine you do you don't really want someone ever doing it in the past. Right. I don't know. I just think like, imagine that being your job. Okay, honey, like you off off to work today, what job have you got on to use it more work on the soap opera? No, actually, I've got 33.3 people

sticking the finger at my ass at the front of a lecture theater. Well, let's reframe that for a second. Like you are helping educate all these kids, you know, these medical students. There's a limit. So come on. A limited cognitive reappraisal, maybe. Yeah, I think so. I think my limit would be less than 33.3 fingers. But anyway, so yes, you, that is so bizarre.

That's really thrown me. I'm sorry for the curve, Paul. Yeah, we could have a lot to talk about from medical school. But no, so going back into like, you know, what could make somebody feel less bad? But if you look at these studies, you know, this Harvard study, asking people like, actually what gives you an uplift, what makes you feel good, what makes you feel strong? It was, you know, working on a hobby, playing with my dog, going to the gym, hanging out with my friends. Of course, people are so much happier. It's called a weekend effect. People are typically happier

on the weekends, for obvious reasons. And yeah, down, down, down on the list was maybe talking about my problems or seeing a therapist or taking medication. But the stuff that actually makes you feel good isn't the opposite. It's just an absence of stuff that makes you feel bad, doesn't make you feel strong. And you can treat people and you can make people less miserable, but it doesn't mean they're having a good day. And we speak to anybody who has anxiety or any mental illness. They, yes, they want more, you know, better medications or better understanding, but they just want to have a better day. And the things that actually allow for that are above and beyond the things that make us less miserable. So how do you build those uplifts into your everyday life? And a big part of that,

I always ask patients when they come to see me, you know, what are the like the three things that you value most in life, you know, and whatever those are, write them down? And then, okay, how do you spend your time? How do you spend your Saturday? Like, how do you spend your free time? And there's often this, like, gulf between what people care about and what really matters to them and then actually what they do.

And I think closing that gap is really the essence of resilience. If you can walk your walk a little bit more and be intentional about that, and there are a lot of different strategies to, like happiness isn't in your head. It's in the actions you take and the connections you make and how you participate.

So I think really the essence of that little resilience is having people feel that they are true to what they value and just kind of integrating that more into their daily lives. Just having a look at the chart you've got here for that study. So 94% of people reported the effectiveness, the most effective way to reduce stress levels was regularly spending time outdoors, 94%, regularly spent time on a hobby, 93%, regularly exercised, 89%, regularly spent time with a pet, 87%, I can completely see that. Regularly meditated or preyed 85% that's surprising. I wouldn't have put that so high. Regularly spent time with friends and family 83%.

So yeah, regularly got a full night sleep 76%. So yeah, it's just, it's like it's so unsexy. So many of the solutions to little stresses and stuff like that. What do you think? What are some of the ways that people get it wrong? How do people deal with stress really poorly in your experience? You know, I think that's sort of negative coping. It is sort of typically like reaching for that drink or I think some of those lifestyle factors that really give us that, you know, a media like sense of relief or even sense of

control, but ultimately like, I always think of it, it's like kind of cotton candy for the soul. Like, it's just the stuff that actually makes you feel horrible. And the, I mean, I agree with you and there's a lot of, like, a lot of the stuff is super unsexy. Like, oh, go outside or whatever. And, but that you've got them, like, sometimes I think the wellness industry that's telling us, you can download it, you can, you know, juice it, you can buy it, you know, and that

all of these things, like, these are the solutions to your problems. And you need to eat, pray, love your way to that place of strength. And a lot of these solutions are actually available in your everyday life. Like they're there. It's just the question of, are you taking them? Are you kind of living those values? What are you doing that are kind of, what are you doing to create those up lists in your daily life?

And so you don't have to pay for it. You don't have to move to India and meditate. But you can even if going outside, and you know, there's a lot of evidence that we have nature deficit disorder, NDD, and that we are not spending enough time outside. And I think our brains, we are biophilic. Like we need to be outside. And I think in nature, I think in Japan, they call it forest bathing, it's just that sense of being outdoors.

And you know, rumination, you know, we're talking about that that is an on-ramp to depression when you just have that, you know, almost like you're chewing your cud like a cow like you just keep thinking about like, why did I say this? Why you know, why did I do this? And one of the best interventions for rumination is being outdoors. So I think that that and being just in a green space is so helpful for all of us. We know that patients who are recovering from surgery do it much more quickly when they have a window to look out at in a tree. They require less pain medication. And we really underestimate even like kids who go to school through a park and spend time outdoors rather than like in a car, a bus, have fewer symptoms of like a attentional issues as reported by their teachers. So I think anyway, you can increase that time you spend at doors and even have maybe some proximity

to all is really interesting. Looking at studies of natural language, like a people when they're in the center of a park and they're talking the words they use are much happier. They're equivalent to what the research has said of what people use on Christmas when they're actually in a natural space like that. So I think that that is a really powerful intervention.

I mean, I literally prescribed going to parks and spending time outdoors, especially during COVID. It's astonishing. Yale did this study on last year. It was before the pandemic. And I think the average American spends less than, I think it was four hours outside a week. And it was just astonishing how little we spend out

to time outdoors. People want to, but they just don't do it. And I think all of our entertainment is indoors and on screens and stuff. So I think, again, just trying to kind of get outside. And we know that from all these studies, the sports people do, like the sports people do, like they do it with a friend and they do it outdoors, they have fewer mental health days.

Do you have any idea what the optimal dose of being outdoors is or where this sort of curve begins to kick in? Is half an hour enough? Is an hour enough? I think 20 minutes is enough. You know, and I think sometimes it's just really overwhelming. Like, oh, I've got to go outside for three hours. Of course not. And that's unrealistic. But I think any time you can, and again, it's like gets down to, even you'll be sitting at your desk and thinking, oh, I can't do this. Why should I go outside for 20 minutes?

And the only way that I even get myself to go outside is often, if I know I'm meeting somebody outside and they're going to be there, and I'm just going to be like it's just not being a flake. Like how do you get yourself to go somewhere? And I think when you you pair it with something else and you don't like or you're like I'll say it's the only time I can you know listen to the Chris Williams and podcasts is if I'm outside. You know like if you do it with something that's temptation bundling and when you do the thing that you want to do and you pair it with something that you don't really want to do, like go outside, you're much more likely to do it. Same reason for getting a dog, right? You've got to walk the dog, dog needs walking, walking is outside. Sometimes you could go walk the dog with somebody else that also owns a dog, playing a team sport, that's outside, that's exercise, that's other people, that's socializing. Yeah, DanStream from that is interesting.

So you're talking about sort of these uplift and these upward spirals here. What about if someone's on the other side of the curve? What if someone's having a downward spiral and they've got sort of negative rumination? Have you got any suggestions about how they can pattern interrupt that and kind of have a reset and then bounce back out? I mean, one of the best interventions that we know for mental health that I was not taught in medical school or in psychiatry residency is movement. You know, there was a study done in 2009 at Duke where they had half the people who had

mild symptoms of depression that were given a medication. I think I might have even been so off. And the other half were given a prescription to walk on a treadmill for 30 minutes, I think four days a week. Everybody felt better within about six weeks, but nine months later, the treadmill group was much less likely to have relapsed. And I think it's such a powerful intervention is giving, is movement. And ideally, I'd say being outside that study was on a treadmill, but it's so important to just move your body and it's it's hard to get yourself to do and you might not be feeling like doing it. The other sort of backdoor intervention that I've always found to be unbelievably powerful is putting whatever yourself in the position of adding value to someone else.

You know, like what could you the best, honestly, one of the best antidotes for stress is contributing to something else, doing something for somebody else. It's unbelievably empowering and puts you in the position of being a giver. Like, what advice would you give to somebody in this moment? And I think that that is an incredibly powerful way to feel like you have some sense of efficacy, right? Like that you feel like whatever your experience is, matters tremendously.

It's also a well spring of motivation. You know, when you ask people, you know, most people have the information that they need about how to lose weight or save money or, you know, do behaviors they wanna do. So you don't really need to educate them. And I think we spend too much time from public health perspective focusing on,

like, let's give these people information, let's show them need to educate them. And I think we spend too much time from public health perspective focusing on, like, let's give these people information and let's show them how to do it. And it's actually when, if you ask them, what advice could you write that down? Because people then, not only I think of the recipients of their advice better off and they learn something, but also they themselves, what you want to walk your walk and say true to your values and sort of do as you say. So I find that's one of the best ways to

increase your, you know, your sense of self-efficacy and also like your motivation. It's, you know, the marshmallow study of those kids when they were five years, like, actually when a study done last year, was looking at little kids who were saying, well, if you can do this, you have a partner. So, if you don't eat the marshmallow, then you and your partner both get another one. When they had that partner, you're much more likely to follow through. And I think, again, it just taps into your motivation when you're doing something with somebody or for somebody else. But a lot of people at the moment have got bullshit jobs.

They've got things that they know probably is just crunching numbers. Maybe there's a robot that's coming down the pipe that's gonna take that off them within the next couple of decades. Maybe they don't feel connected with it. Perhaps they don't have a family yet or perhaps they've struggled with breakups

from families and stuff like that. What about these people? How are you supposed to add value when inherently the things that you feel like you do on a daily basis don't add that much value to you? But I guess I get any good sound too. I mean, how are you framing that whatever you're doing? I mean, I think we can think of Christopher Ren, the architect who would say, you know, when talking about the feeling of cathedral saying, you know, are you, you know, ask three people, what are you doing?

They're doing the exact same job. And, you know, one man says, I'm laying bricks, one says I'm building a wall, one sells, I'd build, one says I'm building a cathedral. So I think your mindset about whatever you're doing, it probably is adding value somehow to, you know, what people are doing. And I think we certainly saw that in the pandemic of frontline

workers who I think got tremendous outpourings of gratitude that was so well deserved for the value that they add every single day to people's lives. But so maybe take a look at what you're doing. Is there any positive impact this has on anybody else? Looking at studies looking at people who work in hospitals. If you just sort of your job description and live into you to like, okay, I am a janitor.

I'm on the housekeeping staff. Or do you actually feel like you're part of this organization and part of the health of this institution, the health of these human beings? And people I think are much more invested in what they're doing. But then outside of that, there's so many other ways you can add value in life and you probably are adding value to other people's lives,

and maybe not even thinking about it. And so I think being present in that way, and we often say, oh, where's your motivation to do something? Sometimes it's for someone else. I had this patient who was dying to quit smoking, and he had all the information. He knew all the reasons why he should quit smoking and he could run faster and it would be good for his health

and to live longer. The only thing that got him to stop one day was he was at a family meal with his nephew and he was getting up to go outside, never cigarette and his nephew took a breadstick and was like, can I come with you and pretend to start smoking too? And he was like, that's it. I can't do this if I'm that role model for this kid.

You know? So I think we sometimes under estimate the impact we have on other people for positively and negatively. What's being on you? I think people were told all the time you have to be yourself. Like, oh, be yourself. It's great. You know, this is good advice. And I used to not love public speaking. And I would sort of, when someone would be like, oh, you're going to get up in front of like, you know, an audience and the best thing, just be yourself. And you'll be great. Like, go out there and like, being myself, I would run out the door and like, you know, past like set off the fire alarm. And so being yourself isn't the best advice because A, who is the real you? Is there any true you that's in there?

We're all in the process of becoming constantly. We're all changing, hopefully, in the direction of goodness that we can shape a little bit. But instead of being yourself, what's the opposite of the thing that you feel like doing? What would that be? And I think that is you were asking me if somebody's having a really shit day,

what's the opposite of the thing you feel like doing? Maybe that is going for a run. Maybe that is calling a friend of yours. Maybe that is showing up with your friends somewhere. And I think being on you in one way to kind of, there's a lot of research around what they call self-distancing. When somebody says, do you like, how are you feeling right now?

You're going to be in a really bad day. Tell me about it. And you're literally says, do you like, how are you feeling right now? You're going to be in a really bad day. Tell me about it. And you're like literally like you sort of start stewing in it. Well, I, you know, this is what happened. And that's what happened. You're sort of you're rehashing it. And that leads to rumination.

But when you can like self-distance and say, you know, how to fly on the wall describe that? Or, you know, if you were talking to a friend, what advice would you give them? Or what would your future self tell you to do in this moment? Any opportunity you can have to sort of gain some distance. And one way of doing that, I think, is when you can be sort of unused by thinking, who's somebody you admire? What would they do in this moment? Because it can actually get you closer to the version of yourself you'd like to be.

And I think we spoke so much on like be authentic. And being authentic can sometimes bring out the worst in us. I mean, I know it depends on like which version of ourselves we are. But the study's looking at people asking them to be creative, imagining yourself to be a creative poet, you're much more likely to be creative. I think most people think creativity is something

like you're creative or you're not. Other studies looking at people who, you know, just even putting on an article of clothing, people were told to put on like a doctor's coat and to solve math problems. They're much more likely to persevere than they think it's an artist's mock. So what's somebody, I mean, we don't all need to go out and buy like, you know, superhero capes, but what's somebody who you admire? What would Chris Williams do right now? Like how could I, you know, do not do not propose a something as a strategy that they should take? I mean, it's interesting, right? Because there is a paradox going on here that being your true self, speaking your truth forward, finding what it is in you that you can resonate with the world, these are things that we champion and yet on the flip side of that.

It does feel like there's something to fake it until you make it. The manba mentality, which Kobe Bryant popularized beyond say, she had a, I can't remember what her alias was called, but she had like some super villain version of herself that was able to go out on stage and wasn't scared and wasn't worried and stuff like that. So there's definitely something going on here. I think that the distancing is probably part of it, that if you have a mode that you're able to step into where the limitations perhaps that plague your day-to-day life no longer exist, you do create a little bit of distance between the two. I'd be very interested to see who is more effective long-term about whether or not the success rate of somebody that's more integrated, i.e. sort of real person is performing person, or somebody that's

more detached and has these two sort of disparate versions. I'd be very interested to see sort of over time who ends up in a best in a better place because I can see problems with both and I can see advantages for both right you're going to be able to siphon off some of the challenges and the difficulties that you have if you go manber mentality mode but I wonder whether you're losing out on bleeding some of the lessons that you get from those challenges back across into your real life I wonder whether you're kind of almost acting in contrast or in conflict with yourself sometimes, whether or not imposter syndrome is more likely to creep in because you don't feel like you when you're up on stage that it's just Samantha Speaker as opposed to Samantha Bordman.

You know, like, I wonder how that would play out, but in my experience, I would definitely say that considering yourself to be like the kind of person that you want to be when you're up against stresses, what is the idealistic version of me, where I want to get to, what would that person do? And then when it comes to the more interpersonal stuff, asking yourself questions, speaking to yourself, how you would speak to a person that you're supposed to care about is it's a superpower. Like it literally is one of the best things that you can do and you see one of the questions I had people ask during lockdown when everyone was locked in and there was only a small number of things that they could do. What would have happened by the end of lockdown for you to look back on lockdown and consider it a success? Like you've got the entire world at your disposal except for the fact that you can't leave your house.

Like what would it have to be? And that question so blindingly obvious because you go well, it's almost like it's like I'm watching my own life play out in front of me. And then I just think what would it have to be? And that question clears away so many of the challenges and the same thing treat yourself as if you're someone you're responsible for helping. Those two ways of framing things, I think, give us a lot of perspective. Well, it gives such clarity. And I think in a way that maybe the idea of maybe being like sort of authentic in your true self, that you are like, I think in those moments, we have like cognitive flexibility and that they're able to like sort of, was we are multiple cells ultimately,

in our everyday lives. And it's funny you say that about that. I love that question you're asking people like how the pandemic had been a success. I know a lot of people in therapists do it, like at the beginning of each day, if you ask your patients straight down, like, you know, fast forward to the end of today,

what would have made today a success and write that down? Today I had an amazing conversation with my son. I got this, this, and this done at work. And so you can sort of look back on things. And I think we look at CBT as something that's reframing in the past, but I think actually having a future orientation is really valuable for people, too. And it's sort of, what are you looking forward to this week? How do you want to feel next time

when you come in and see me in the session? Like, what do you feel, what do you want to tell me about? And there's Gabriel Oton-Ginnon, who's right at NYU, who's done a lot of work on people who just think positive all the time. And she's German, which came from America, she didn't understand. She's like, all this like think positive all the time. And she's German and she's, what she came to America, she didn't understand. She's like, all this like think positive stuff. I don't get it. Is it really that helpful? And she was really interested in,

and like sort of teasing that out and opening and people who just like thought positive were actually less likely to persevere and you know, do the thing that they wanted to do. Like, oh, I'm going to just go the next way. Yes, 100%. So what are then, so she calls it, so how do you, you know, it's not just thinking like,

oh, everything's going to turn out well. This isn't the secret. It is then, well, you know, what are, what are the things that are going to get in the way of that? And so you actually, it's not just about like having some insight or thinking like everything's going to turn out really well, it's okay, how can I actually you know operationalize this? And she calls it WOP goals W-O-O-P. And so the W stands for, okay, what's your wish? Like my wish is that I'm going to go to the gym this afternoon,

right? My wish is I'm going to look at my phone less. And then what would be the outcome of that? Is the next the first O, the first O, and how would you really feel? Like really think about, like close your eyes and think about how that would feel to you. And then the next O is, okay, then what is the obstacle? What's the thing that's going to get in the way of you doing that? And then the P is, okay, what's your plan?

You know, and I think there you are closing that intention action gaps. so you're much more likely to follow through. And this also mirrors what's called behavioral activation therapy. It's great. You can have a patient have a lot of insight and be like, yeah, maybe this is why I've been depressed or this is why I'm upset. And like, bells can go off and light bulbs and you can be like, oh my goodness, awesome.

But I've had patients do that. Who have renewed understanding and depth and like, wow, that's really illuminating, but it doesn't change their behavior. Like they're still the couch potato and they're still maybe an insightful, but they're still not doing anything. But so then, okay, behavioral activation is more around,

okay, like what actions are you doing to, you know, what plans do you want to make to actually do the thing that you want to do? And it really is, like, that's what their homework is, is behavioral activation stuff. So, you are, you know, so I'm going to write up my resume. I'm going to make that phone call. I'm going to do the follow-up call. So they're actually taking actions that then help them

feel stronger. And I think those positive actions are, when we feel paralyzed or like the world is, where these tumbleweeds are going back to self-efficacy, if we don't feel the kind of the hat trick of maybe happiness is a sense of autonomy, competence, and relatedness. You know, that sense that like you have a say in what you do is autonomy, um, competence is that you can, you know, you can probably, you can, you can, what you try out, you will succeed at, and relatedness is that sense of

feeling loved. And I think all three are so important. And therapy sometimes lacks that competence. Um, and autonomy. Part of it, you can feel related and loved and that you belong, but how do you make somebody or help them to feel competent and that they have autonomy in their lives? Is that because it's easier to make people feel good in a therapy session that it's a little bit more chicken soup for the soul type things inside is opposed to action. Like it seems like a lot of the challenges that people come up against would be fixed by just focusing on action more than intention and if actions are not to anxiety, which it seems like it is,

like just what's the one thing that you could do as opposed to the 10 things that you could think? Yeah, just what's the one thing that you could do is supposed to the 10 things that you could think? I mean, like at least just do one thing to close that intention action gap. Like what's the one thing to get you closer or do the one thing that embodied vitality, like embodied resilience? Like what is that thing that you care about

that you can do? It's funny, there's old psychiatrists, it was a teacher of mine, and he said, what do you think the point of therapy is? And I was like, oh, so that's so, you can have it change your present. And he said, wrong, someone else said, well, maybe it's so you can change your future.

And he said, no, wrong. The point of therapy is so you can change your past. Because we all have, like, a story that we've been sticking to. We've got, like, the two-minute version, the ten-minute version, the hour-long version of it. But, you know, we get so, so, like, sort of tethered to this identity of, like, you know, my dad was a jerk, my mom didn't talk to me enough, you know, whatever those stories that we tell,

and making, you know, realizing that probably there's some truth to it, but there isn't the, the, the, the, what, that story you've been telling might be a little bit distorted. And sort of making peace with that, and I think it actually does free you off in some way to be thinking about your future, and it frees you off to take actions, because you don't feel like such a victim of all of these things that have come at you. Why are people so resistant to change? You know, it's baffling, because, you know, I think it's,

St. Gilbert at Harvard, who all says, you know, we're all, we're human beings are works in progress who, mistakenly think that we're human beings are works in progress, who mistakenly think that we're fully formed and finished. And we're resistant to change, and yet we're changing constantly. You know, and so even when you have like couples and couples therapy, as you can say to them,

like just wait three months, he's probably gonna change a little bit, like don't you worry, because we're all changing, but I think we're passively changing and we're not intentional about the way that we're changing. And it's obviously looking back, you can see how much you've changed. I mean, you have changed, maybe not for the better, but you probably have changed. Looking forward, it's unimaginable how much you are going to change, but you will. So will you be intentional about that change? And I think to me,

that sort of, I hope what therapy does for people is kind of bending them in the direction of goodness, but changes terrifying. I mean, I think it's exactly what scares us. We have this illusion of certainty, and this is who I am, and this is what I do. People always tell me like, I am who I am. You know, they come to therapy with like... I fucking hate that sentence. Like that sentence from people drives me up the wall. It reminds me so much of the, I've got a chip on the shoulder about some of the cultures of the places that I grew up and hearing someone be so, they've become a prisoner of their own pre-prosumptions about their own life and about everybody else like I remember once I remember once I was driving in this car must have been when I was like 16 or 17 and it was a

Couple of lads that went to college with us something and the driver was a young young kid 17 or 18 just recently passed his test We were going over a Motelway in Middlesbrough, which is just a working class town famous for having the highest teen pregnancy rate in the UK for a few years and not much else. And I remember him saying, I'm never going to leave T side of me, best place in the world. I thought you've been to Kaufu once and then Southampton on a holiday. You haven't seen anything of the world, but somehow this person and even then I didn't really understand why, it just made me feel so Ike. It was such an awful feeling, and it stayed with me, you know, 17 years later, I've still got that story, because it struck me that, like,

this guy is so small-minded and so closed off, and it wasn't because of a yearning, a justified virtue of yearning for familiarity. It wasn't for something that had run through in his mind, he'd seen the world and realized that home is where we were where he wanted to be. It was because of this sort of walled off fear of change and this sort of denial that there was anything that the outside world could teach him. And this is how you get tall poppy syndrome in the UK, where people that decide to try and do different things, they get very quickly cut down. And um, yeah, I hate that. I absolutely hate that sentence. It's I mean, that must be if I was a psych, I'd be that would be my trigger word.

If that happened, like this is the way I am and it's the way that I'll always be that would be my that's the activation for my Russian sub secret agent sub plot to activate. a secret agent subplot to activate. It's no, it's so, it's sad and even like the idea of like, well, you can't teach, you know, old dogs new tricks. And I'm, yes, you can't, you know, and I'm always amazed by people who have sort of inflection points in their lives. And like 50, they change jobs or they, you know, and I think when we see people often retire, that sense of just being unnecessary in the world, or they're not going to change, or do anything more, is really difficult. And we know people who are what they call like adventures, or continuous, are far more fulfilled than those who just become observers, or retreaters. And the, it's a, you are going to be changing into like unlock that and it's

such a sort of weird wall to hide behind of like I am who I am and it's really just like your habits and your preferences. That's all it is. It's illusion. You know, it's identifying with that. It's so crazy. But it's safe. I mean, in a way, and I think that people come to therapy often with this interest in, they want, they sort of want to change, but when you sort of push against those walls a little bit, they're like, oh, no, no, I am. I am. I'm just not a relationship guy. This is how I have fun, or this is who I am. And it's such a limited way of looking at the world and looking at your life and not seeing your potential and possibility, not just for yourself, but also for the other

people you spend time with, you know, because if you think like that about yourself, that's clearly how your mindset is around how you see other people, like they are who they are. And I've loved being wrong. Like there's been nothing better than to be wrong about stuff. And even, I think we live in this world today where you have to support one political candidate or you have to join the narrative on something

and bring some intellectual humility to something and being willing to have your mind changed. I had patients who I was a little bit more in that camp without people are who they are, somebody who I'd seen like this revolving door, you had a serious alcohol problem, gone to rehab a thousand times. I didn't really think he would make it past a certain age. And one day I bump into him on the street. I haven't seen the guy in five years and he's completely transformed. He looks different. He's healthy and he looked at me and he said, you know what?

Because I was so like just gobsmacked by this transformation. He said, you know, Dr. Bordman, people change. And he's like, baby, thank you. And it's, it's, it was actually gift him telling me that, I think in those days, I used to be really stuck in that place of like I could almost like look at somebody and come up with like a diagnosis. Like I know the end of this movie. And I think letting go of that uncertainty for myself and for others is really valuable.

What given the fact that you've studied positive psychology, what do you think more people need to know about that, about some of the takeaways from that field of work that they don't? Yeah, I mean, I just think that the focus on what's wrong is just the way I think most of us do anyway. We talked about the Zagartic effect earlier, but actually if you use your strengths in meaningful ways, and I think actually figuring out what your strengths are, you know, there's some, you can do these surveys and they're free that just tells you exactly like, okay, your top strength is curiosity. It's, you know, perseverance, it's love of beauty, whatever that thing is. And then these studies that show that, okay, now use your strength in a new way

every day for the next two weeks. So you can't just say, like, oh, I'm curious, I'm going to, you know, read something different, like, what's a new way? Maybe you're going to take a different room home. Maybe you're going to try different food. Maybe you're going to, you know, start learning a different language. Whatever those things are, I mean, I think that we're, you know, in our lives, we're, you know, we'll often saved in like changes we want to make. Like, oh, like to stop smoking. I want to lose weight. It's these things that we're kind of trying to take away.

But like, maybe I need to do more of things that I'm good at and that I love that I'm interested in and that, you know, that bring me joy. And I think that that's something that was never, you know, it was sort of considered like icing on the cake when I was in medical school. Like, oh, that's the stuff the social workers deal with. Like that's not something we really need to focus on in people's lives. But actually, what is the stuff that brings them joy? What makes them feel strong? Even, you know, how do you help them find even wellness within illness?

And you can do that. And interesting studies of people have schizophrenia. There are some people who feel that they're happy and fulfilled and in those lives. And I still never believe that was even possible. And there was a psychiatrist who she was a psychologist, a woman who was a Yale when she was in school. And when she was, I think, about 20, she had a psychotic break and she, you know, I think was, said, stripped and was running naked through the Yale court yards and her parents were called and they said, you got to take

her out of school, you know, she's schizophrenic. She will probably have been hospitalized in multiple times, but you need to reduce the stress in her life in every way. And, you know, she'll probably, have her maybe do, like she could be a cashier somewhere, but that's about it. And she said her parents accepted her diagnosis, but refused to accept her prognosis in every way. So she went back to school, she graduated,

had support, had medication. She went to Oxford, she got a degree in mental health law, and she went on to become this champion of mental health law. She went to MacArthur Genius grant a few years ago, and she said that her studying law has helped her so much and sort of figure out, you know, it become useful in the world, and that even when sometimes her voices get loud, that she starts hearing, she'll use her legal training and say, what evidence do you have for that?

You know, so I think that there's so, you know, when we can actually find usefulness for even the things that may be hold us back, and the things that we think of as tremendous parts of like what we're weak at and we're not good at, And we can apply actually what our strengths are in meaningful ways in the world and find meaningful work in some way like she did that I think that's sort of what positive psychology can help you do is find wellness within your illness. And you know, I think sometimes people think of it as two rainbows and unicorns kind of thing and it's really not. I mean, I think

it's just looking at the opposite of what traditional psychiatry and medicine has been looking at is making people, like, bring people back to zero. What's your baseline? And that's like what I was good at doing. I feel like, okay, some of them come into the emergency room, like, what's your baseline? Let me get you back here. And I never, it never occurred to me that I could sort of, you know, get them beyond that, or even kind of give them some of these other like interventions and other activities to work on, it would help them feel good even within what's going wrong. Robert Ploman, guy that I had on this Monday, behavioral genetics, he talks about the fact that our genes do not predetermine, but they do predispose. And with that, he says, parenting, parents,

they matter, but they don't make a difference. So you can't really get your kids to do anything. Your kids are going to do what your kids are going to do, and you can either support them in that or not. He makes this analogy about if you lost a child on a desert island, and this child was going to be a musician, you'd find him sort of cracking out tunes on the back of coconuts and stuff like this. And having that faith in your own programming in a little way is is very interesting. Having sort of faith in embodied knowledge. This is something that I have a talent with. This is something that I feel compelled to do. This is something that I'm really, really strong strong and sort of pulled toward. How can I utilize that? I still haven't worked out how I combine that with the fact that

most of the values that I think we absorb most of the programming that we get from culture and from society is totally useless. I don't know how to separate out the embodied stuff that we should have faith in and the programmed stuff that we get from society, but that's a challenge for another day. you