Morbid - Episode 125: The West Memphis Three part 3

Episode Date: March 16, 2020

We are in the home stretch with one of the most frustrating and horrifying cases we can remember. In this part of our 4 part series, we cover the trials of Jessie Misskelley and Jason Baldwin and Damien Echols. There are recanted witness testimonies galore, straight up lying under oath, full moon evidence and one hell of a "hunch". Come on in and join us for a tale of miscarriage of justice that will keep you up at night. Sources: https://innocenceproject.org/west-memphis-three-go-free/ HBO Paradise Lost 1 The Child Murders at Robin Hood Hills HBO Paradise Lost 2 Revelations HBO Paradise Lost 3 Purgatory Devil's Knot by Mara Leveritt Life After Death by Damien Echols Dark Spell: Surviving the Sentence by Mara Leveritt Almost Home by Damien Echols Thanks to our sponsors! SimpliSafe Go to SimpliSafe.com/MORBID today and you’ll get FREE shipping and a 60-day risk free trial. You’ve got nothing to lose! Embark Right now, Embark has an exclusive offer you can’t get anywhere else! Go to Embark.com now! and use Promo code MORBID to save 15% off your Dog DNA Test Kit. Care/of For 50% off your first Care/of order, go to TakeCareOf.com and enter code morbid50 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y-P-O-D. Audible.com slash wonderypod or text wonderypod to 500-500 to try audible for free for 30 days. Angie's list is now Angie, and we've heard a lot of theories about why. I thought it was an eco-move. For your worst, guess paper. It was so you could say it faster. No way. It's to be more iconic.

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That's ANGI, or download the app today. Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. And I'm Ash. And this is a full length big old morbid huge. It's pretty big. So this is going to be part three of our West Memphis three series. And guess what? Not the final part. It's just good. It's not the end guys. It's gonna be a four-parter. I just can't make it three. I feel like I will be cheating you all of details and intrigue and little tidbits if I try to shove it all into three. And I feel like this is going to focus on the trial today in part three.

And I feel like there's so much in the trial that I just can't skip through it. I also feel like I'm going to be sobbing by the end of this episode. It's pretty hard, but in I think in four we're gonna go more into like, you know, their prison terms, the Alfred plea that got them out of jail or out of prison and also in between like all the people who rallied for them, like all everybody who got together to get them out of jail. So I want to like really concentrate on that and then talk about their evidence that came to light afterwards. So I feel like that deserves its own episode.

So we're getting another episode after this. So that will be the conclusion. So hope you guys are digging this because it's not ending. Well, before we get to part three of the West Memphis three case, we do need to fill you in on our live shows because we just have to.

And because they are not canceled yet. Guys, fingers fucking crossed. We haven't heard anything yet. Nope. So everybody just, you know, hold on tight. Cross to your fingers altogether. Punch COVID-19 in the face until you wanna come to our live show.

And the opposite. Cross your fingers, wash your fucking hands. Yeah, everybody keep washing those hands. Yeah, wash your damn hands. And don't go out social distance, okay? Just give it a couple weeks. I have a feeling most of our listeners are like us. Yeah, I feel like we're practicing social distance.

I see, I think you are like us. I practice social distance on a regular basis. But keep doing that and you know, a couple weeks guys, we're gonna flatten this curve, where you're gonna pass it. It's gonna be everybody's just, got to hunker down. Hunker down. On watch a movie, wash your hands.

So April 14th we're going to be at the Punchline Comedy Club in Philadelphia. Philly Liberty Bell. April 15th we're going to be at the DC Impraven Washington DC and now Elena's going to go monuments. So many monuments. Then the April 23rd will be at the death becomes us festival. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. I know it. Guys, I want to come to the death becomes us festival.

I want it so bad. Get your tickets for it. It's gonna be awesome. And that's at the Grammar's Theatre in New York City, New York. So fun. May 6th, stand up live. Huntsville, Alabama. Alabama, you're in May. So it's looking good. Looking good. Looking good, May.

May 7th, we have two shows that Zene's, one's early, one's late. I think, I think Nashville, I think we're gonna see ya. I really do, I feel it. I want to see all of you. It's making me so sad that there's possibilities of cancellations. I know and I'm trying to put it into the universe that it's not we're good. June 2nd Good Night's comedy club and Raleigh North Carolina. Raleigh. We're totally gonna see you. I just feel it my bones if they cancel a show on the fucking week of my birth Let me tell you a corona virus. We're gonna have more problems than we already do COVID-19 is shaking in its cells. Yeah.

June 3rd, the Comedy Zone in Charlotte, North Carolina. Charlotte, what's coming for you? June 11th, I believe there's still some tickets lying around for this. So get your tickets. That is our show, uh, tell you a haul in Chicago. Oh, come on, Shai Town. It's gonna be awesome. And here's my guilt trip. We added this show because a lot of you said that you didn't get tickets in time.

So we added this show and we'd like to sell it out. So scoop up the last remaining tickets. Go scoop those up. Sold out shows. Go scoop them up. Please. The next day we're gonna be at Tell You a Hall again. June 12th, Chicago.

Sold out. We're gonna see you. July 8th, Comedy Works south in Greenwood Village, Colorado. Colorado. Colorado's so beautiful. I'm so excited. Have you ever been to Colorado?

I have not. You're gonna think it's gorgeous. I think I've been to the airport, but I haven't been to the airport. The airport is spooky as fuck. We could literally cover that in an episode. We probably can. And then July 11th, we're just gonna stay home.

Like I said, maybe we'll head to the Wilbur because we do have a show there. Maybe we'll head in. And speaking of that, go buy tickets to the Wilbur guys. If I know you and you don't have tickets yet, yeah, honey, I don't know why you're not on the website. There's tickets available for the Wilbur. We wanna pack that place with all kinds of amazing beautiful faces.

We're gonna make that show extravagant. We are in the comic stylings of Emily Wallsher at that show. So get your butt into it. Go buy tickets. There's a ladybug in this room. I feel like that is good. Juju. So go buy tickets to the Wilbur everybody. I'm telling you it's gonna be awesome. Okay, without further ado, let's get into the K-City case. Let's do this. Make me cry.

All right, so now we left off Damian Eccles, Jason Baldwin and Jesse Muskelli were arrested and charged with three counts of capital murder for the brutal deaths of Christopher Buyer's Michael Moore and Stephen Branch. Three, eight-year-old little boy scouts just hanging out on their bikes. They were just going to Robin Hood Hills.

The worst part about this whole case, and I'm just going to keep on saying it, is that these little boys, I fear that they will never get justice, and it really bums me out. Yeah. They really bums me out. So, at this point, they have arrested the three boys based on Jesse's confession If you can even call it that which if you don't know what I'm talking about go back to part two and go listen to that because Wowsers, but Nana so at this point the police are still talking to Aaron Hutchinson Aaron Hutchinson is Vicki Hutchinson's eight year old son. Right.

Vicki Hutchinson is the one that made up that story about the spot. Lied under his work in with Jerry Driver. She hasn't lied under her. Oh, yeah, but she's gonna. She got a lot of spoiler alert. I think we said that last episode. But she's been working with Jerry Driver and the police and she was the one who came out later and said the police and Jerry

Driver made me do that. They made me make up this story. I mean, I believe it. She did it. So she's probably scared, but also not cool at all. But yeah, so they kind of did she said they threatened her saying they were going to have her child taken away. So that's awful. It all sucks. But her child Aaron Hutchinson, eight years old, the same ages, the victims, was friends with the victims. The police are still pressing him for information. I'm like, he's eight. What does he have to contribute here? He's eight years old, like eight years old. And they're at eight year olds, like, ready? Look at the eight year old in your life, if you have one. Now, does that eight year old understand the ramifications of a capital murder trial?

No. Probably not. Mm-hmm. So if a police officers are sitting there, telling him, we need information, only you can give us information, Aaron, you can be a hero, you can tell us what this is. Of course, he's going to kill a little boy. He's going to want to please the police. Right. And once he sees that the police are giving him positive reactions to him telling them things, he's gonna keep going. He starts coming up with things and he doesn't understand. That this is the worst thing that he can possibly do.

Like he doesn't get it. Right. So by the way, Aaron later in life, Vicki, his mother, said that he was fucked up from this. Oh, no. And she said the one thing she regret, I mean, she regrets a lot about this whole thing. Obviously.

But she said the biggest thing she regrets is the psychological damage that Aaron, like the toll it took on him. Yeah, I mean, of course, he's fucking eight years old. He really was. And so he said, he finally told the police. He told the police many different tales, very, very intricate eight year old imagination tales.

He then told the police, you know what? I've seen Jason Damien and Jesse in the woods like doing a spot things. Oh, like have you at eight years old, he's even telling them like I saw these men in the woods with them and they were doing Satan things. Oh, like have you at eight years old he's even telling them like I saw these men and the woods with them and they were doing Satan things they were singing Satan songs. What is a say where you know Satan songs? No, no, no, no, I can't say I do those Satan songs that are just like hey, well they play backwards. Oh, sorry. That's what it is. That's what they were doing. They were playing rock music backwards. Metallica and backwards. Exactly. Pink Floyd backwards while watching the Wizard of Oz in the woods.

There you go. It was really intense. It actually sounds like a party. Well, he was saying he saw this and then he goes, you know what? I actually saw Jason Damien and Jesse murder. Christopher Byers, Michael Moore, and Stephen Branch. Did you, and you're not more fucked up from him? He totally did. So he said, when I saw them, they were wearing black shirts with dragons on them. Oh, because we all know that the most vital part of a ritualistic killing in the woods in the name of Satan is matching team teas.

Duh. You can't get that shit done without getting your graphic teas all matching. So tomorrow we're gonna murder, but sure you're wearing the shirt. No ritualistic murder without team teas. Okay, just saying, uniform is important. Check.

So the police were like, cool, cool, cool. This is real evidence. We're keep going. To look at us more. We're gonna use this Aaron and they were like 100%. And they did. They took this as like real. This is real.

And they were like, if you heard anything from them, they were like, well, this little boy saw it. And it's like, are you fucking kidding me right now? You definitely did. So they ended up not using Aaron at the last second because his stories kept changing because he's so layered and weird. And weird are still, they kept becoming more and more

just crazy and improbable, weird. I mean, wonder why? Seriously, he said at one point that he, and improbable, weird. I mean, wonder why? Seriously. He said at one point that he, eight-year-old Aaron, had personally dismembered Christopher Bios. Oh, he said that. And he said, a black man held a gun to his head and made him do it.

Okay, this little boy definitely sounds like he might have been experiencing. Oh, some things were going, I mean, I'm not here to like say anything was happening to him, but like something was happening to him. Well, something was having to him at that point for sure. I mean, like for him that psychologically there was some shit in your mouth. And it your old doesn't just come up with that.

So that was fucked up. So after that, I think the police were like, yeah, I don't think we can use him. I think I would like to provide you some counsel. Like, perhaps. So remember speaking of that whole thing, remember when I said, and I think it was the last episode, that people spread a rumor that Christopher Byers' testicles were found in Damien's room in a glass jar.

Oh. In that John Mark Byers, Christopher Buyer's stepfather actually stated it as fact after hearing it. Literally stated it as fact. And you want to know how I know this because in the documentary he literally says it to the camera and he says it in disbelief like they found my son's testicles in a glass jar in Damien's room. And it had his fingerprints all over it. And they're like, he's like, how is he not behind bars? And it's like, oh my god.

Oh my god. This man truly believes that they found, like, that's what I'm talking about. These rumors, especially about Damien. Right. When it came to Damien, whatever rumors were out there, boom, true. It was just nobody questioned it. Always true. I mean, when the father of one of the victims is sitting there saying this rumor, this fantastical rumor as fact. Right. Like, are you honestly sitting there, John Markbier's and thinking that

Right. Like, are you honestly sitting there, John Markbier's, and just thinking that your, like, poor sons, like, body parts are in this kid's room? And that they're not arrested yet. And that they're just not. They're just, we still don't have enough evidence. Like, what? No, that's enough to land you somewhere.

And that's how crazy in his stare, this is the hysteria that came with this. Right. Everybody believed that stuff. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondries Podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our newest series, we look at the kids' for cash scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend.

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So June 7th, 1993, the three got public defenders because obviously they had to be able to pay for lawyers. So Jason got Paul Ford and Robin Wadley. Damien got Val Price and Scott Davidson, and Jesse got Dan Stidham and Greg Crow. Dan Stidham is a fucking treasure. He makes me want to cry. Like that guy stuck with Jesse until the very end. The whole entire way. Until the very end.

And he went through like tireless efforts to what's crazy is Dan Stidham, originally went into this thinking Jesse was guilty. Oh wow. He went into it thinking, okay, I have a guilty client here. My only job is to get him a plea deal. Is to get him out of, you know,

just to make sure we get this less sentence as we can. That's what he was going in here thinking. Then after seeing everything and speaking to Jesse, he was like, no, oh, wait a second. And he was like, this is not right. And all of a sudden, he was like, there's more to this. I'm gonna need to do a lot more work. I can't just go for a plea deal. I need to make sure people know he's innocent. And he doesn't land himself in jail. Now, the one of the things that was really showing him that this was not how it seemed was he said every time he asked, Jesse, he asked him several times, please tell me the story again.

Jesse would tell him the story and it was totally different from the story before that. Right. He couldn't repeat the same confession twice. Because it didn't happen. If you're lying, it's hard to repeat the same thing twice. If it actually happened, it's easy. Right. Because there it is. It's a memory. Exactly. Now, Damian read Jesse's confession himself. And when he was, when after he was arraigned, once he found out that Jesse had confessed, he was probably like, what the fuck? He was given

this stack of papers and he was told to read it. So he read through it and he said he read the whole thing and he was like, what the fuck? But he says in his book, quote, I've been asked many times if I'm angry with Jesse for accusing me. The answer is no, because it's not Jesse's fault. It's the fault of the weak and lazy, quote, civil servants who abuse the authority placed in their hands by people who trust them. Yep. So that shows how even at that time, he said he wasn't even mad at the time. He was more confused and frustrated.

Right. And he was like, but everyone knew this wasn't real. Yeah. Anyone who looked at that confession was like, what? It just doesn't make any sense. Like, no. And we had discussed at length in the last episode how Jesse was not mentally fit to be interrogated in the way that he was

and that his statements were conflicting, flat out wrong, and very much led by the police. Mm-hmm. The amount of time that they stopped and put on and then stopped and then put on the recorder. I think it was something like eight different times to get him to the correct time. And it was what like, it even occurred. It was an eight hour, uh, yeah, it was, he was interrogated for like 11 hours. And they only had so much. They only had like 34 minutes.

Right. And all the tape. That's ridiculous. It was ridiculous. And no one heard how he was prepped beforehand. When they discussed beforehand because they kept stopping that time. Well, and it gets crazy. So and remember, they pretended that they didn't know that he was mentally challenged.

Right. And meanwhile, in the middle of the confession, when they speak about like Chris Bios' genital mutilation, they ask him several times, do you know what a penis is? Which it's like, why would you ask that? Like, you definitely know. If you would never ask someone that you thought had an IQ of like a highly functioning person that you would never ask, do you know what a penis is to a 17 year old boy?

Unless you knew that he was slightly mentally challenged. Exactly. Well, let's add on to this, something really shitty. You told me that this was going to make me sad. Yeah. So, he, Jesse, didn't know in 1994, he did not know who Bill Clinton was. Oh. Now, Bill Clinton had been governor of Arkansas.

Right. And was a huge deal because he was president of the United States at the time. And it was a huge deal. And it was a huge deal. And it was a huge deal. Well, it was just a huge deal in Arkansas that the governor of Arkansas had become the president of the United States.

Right. It was a big deal. Yeah. Everybody knew who Bill Clinton was. Jesse didn't. OK. It didn't, this isn't like, this isn't like, factor in the case.

It's just, it shows that he wasn't a soundline. He's 17 years old and he did not know who the president of the United States was when the president of the United States was the governor of his state. Right. Like, that should show you where he's sitting. Also, he didn't know what a lawyer did. Oh. He thought lawyers were police officers or like detectives. He didn't need to stay inside.

Also, and this one really gets you. Oh, God. So Dan Stuydom said he was or Dan Stuydom, excuse me, said he was visiting Jesse in prison because he obviously when you're someone's lawyer You're gonna visit them all the time to go over things right and suddenly one time when he was visiting him Jesse said Can you tell me who Satan is? Oh. And he was like, what? Like, he was like, what's Satan is? And he was like, he was Satan.

And he was like, Satan is like a fabric. Like, what are you talking about? And Jesse showed him a pamphlet given to him by some preacher and it warned against the dangers of Satan. Right. Jesse didn't know who Satan was and he was beating touted as a devil worshiping criminal mastermind. Right. He didn't know what Satan was. Oh my god. Like I think he had probably heard the word, but he couldn't even read it or connect it

with anything. So clearly he's not a devil worshipper. Who's satan? Oh, like, hello everybody. Right. So the characters we are going to mention in this that I just want to say up front just so you, because there's a lot of names in here. Yeah. Dan Stidem, Jesse's lawyer.

John Fulgumman is one of the lawyers for the prosecution. Judge David Burnett, who is a flaming asshole, Terry Hobbs, we're not going to mention him really in this part. He's the stepfather of Stephen Branch. And then this chief inspector Gary Gitchell. And there's going to be a couple more along the way, but I'll tell you who they are.

So August 4, 1994, was the pretrial hearing. This is when they all pled not guilty, Judge David Burnett, who was the dick of the century, and was the one who was on this case, which we'll get into too, and part four, till the end, like held up every appeal, everything. He oversaw, he made sure that no new evidence later in this whole case, he made sure no new evidence that would ever exonerate them was led into the trial. Which is the most, like, how is that, that's not legal.

No, it shouldn't be. He also believed that psychologists had no business being part of trials. Oh! He did not believe in psychologists, but we didn't really do find out what he believes in. And he went into this completely convinced from the jump. They were all devil worshiping.

He then who needed to be behind bars. Like he went into this being like, they're guilty. Let's do this. Okay. I don't know if this is true or not, but as a judge you're supposed to be impartial, correct? Yes. Okay.

You're definitely knows like, maybe someone's gonna yell at me, but I'm pretty sure from what I've heard, they're supposed to be impartial, correct? Yeah, absolutely. You're definitely not supposed to be. I was like, maybe someone's gonna yell at me, but I'm pretty sure from what I've heard, they're supposed to be impartial. No, it's definitely ideal that you go in without any preconceived bias. They won't even listen. They won't even listen.

But yeah, but this guy, I mean, he didn't come out in like, obviously, the town. Like, it's not like he walked down, sat down, and put on his robe, and was like, well, fuck these devil worshiped dickheads. He was just like, he might as well. But he might as well. And I'm sure the jury probably was the same way.

Oh, yeah, and that's the thing. It's like, so this judge, but this is one judge Bernette at this point, after like the pre-trial hearing. Yeah. He severed Jesse's trial from Jason and Damien's. Okay. So Jesse was gonna have his own trial in Jason and Damien and we're going to have a trial together

So but he wasn't so when that happened they were like, okay, well, let's separate Damian and Jason to right He would not allow this so that meant that anything people said about Damian, which was a lot as we know That was gonna be said during Jason's trial, too So he wasn't gonna be given a fair trial because he was gonna be locked in with all of this. And I don't believe that any like 99% of the things they say about Damien, I don't believe it's true. I think it's all just him portraying a spooky kid.

Like, which, let me be clear, Damien leaned into the spooky, goth, everyone's scared of me thing. Right. A little too much. Yeah. He was 17 years old. He was a rebel. And he was thinking, I didn't do this. It's not pulling it on me if I didn't do it. So I'm just going to have fun with this. Whatever. I would give a shit. He was a little asshole at the time, like for sure. Yeah. And I'm sure at this point, Damien Ecc will probably be like, yeah, I didn't give a shit. But that doesn't make him a murderer. Like that just makes him a cocky little shit.

And it's like, but you know, like I think even he would agree that he probably said some things. And actually in interviews later, he was like, there was some things that I'm like, what the fuck, why did I say that? Well, yeah, but you're 17 years old. I said, crazy shit at 17 years old. And he went through his whole life as the weird poor kid.

Right. And he created this defense mechanism where he saw I could keep, I could social distance people by just being spooky. Right. And scaring the shit out of people and whatever they would say, I would just say, yep, I did it because it's easier than trying to defend myself. Exactly.

To convince people I'm not this person. And it's just like, yeah, cool, you're that stupid. Yeah, you just go with it. You start going with all the rumors because it's just easier. Right. Like, fuck it. So again, this meant that anything that was said in the trial about Damien was automatically going to be pinned on Jason too.

And that's not fair. Now remember, Jason and Damien are 17 years old. They both did not believe that this was really going to end with them going to jail. Right. Because they said, in fact, Jason, and I had a clip, I'll have to see if I can find it, there is a clip of him where he says he says like I believe in God like I Believe in God and his whole thing when he said it later that this whole thing really shook his faith of course Because he said this entire time the reason I was kind of we were just kind of like whatever about it He said I believed that God would not allow Something like the miscarriage of justice like this. Like my God, the God that we all,

that they all believed in. Right. He was like everyone in that, that courtroom was yelling about Satan and all that and saying they're God. We all believed in the same God. And he's like, I believed that my God would not allow me to be put behind bars or something I didn't do.

Oh, yeah. And so then when it happened, he was like, whoa. And that's why they were so cavalier. Because I think they both were just like, whatever. But Jason in particular was like very vocal about like, I believe in God, which is crazy since they were portraying him as this like devil worship. Exactly. It was the like exact opposite. So Damien was held in Monroe County, jail. He was later transferred, but he did not have a good time in there. Damien had a real rough time of prison all the way through. It's so awful to hear about.

Yeah, especially when you know what most people believe is an innocent being basically tortured. So we mentioned in last episode that his girlfriend Dominie Tier was pregnant, which is his cat. That poor girl. Yeah, so on September 9th, Damien's son was born, and he was obviously not allowed to be at the birth. Right. He did not hold his son until during his murder trial. Jesus Christ. Which is just like, whoa.

Now a couple of months after all of their arrests on November 17th, so at this point, they didn't have a murder weapon. They didn't really have anything. Yeah. Shuffle that bullshit confession. Well, in November 17th, John Fulgumman, John Fulgumman, he's a very wise and all-knowing wizard of a man. Is this the judge?

No, this is John Fulgum and is the prosecutor. Got it. He suddenly was like, you know what? I have a hunch. I have a hunch about something. This hunch was that there was probably something awesome and murder-related in the small lake behind where Jason and his mother lived. Just a hunch. Okay. You know how you get those hunches every once in a while? Yeah. So because hunches are very often legit, the police called all the media to this lake on this hunch. Uh-huh.

Weird, right? Yes. That's putting a lot on that hunch that it's going to pay off for you. And these media that they allocated many resources into hiring a diving team during all of this. Okay. They all came to the lake, the whole, all the media all watching. And now the diver dives into the lake because there's a hunch, something's in there.

Right. The diver's in the lake for less than 30 minutes, a murky, deep lake, and with no direction of where something could be at all. Wow, he suddenly comes up less than 30 minutes later. And he's like, huh, look at this giant combat knife I found in this murky lake. Uh-huh. That I had no idea where to look for it. What luck, he's so lucky. I mean, that doesn't happen every day. He's so lucky. What a hunched-on Fulgoman. Good for you.

That was really good. That's so fucked up. Well, turns out the knife was Jason's old knife. But the reason Fulgoman knew it was in the lake, it wasn't just a hunch everybody. He put it there. He knew. It was because Jason's mom had mentioned he had a knife a long time ago, but she threw it in the lake a year before.

And she threw it in the lake because he was like being a dick. And she was like, I'm getting rid of your life. You're nice. You're like, I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life.

I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life. I'm getting rid of your life like I'm getting rid of your knife So she threw it in the lake a year earlier. Okay, so a year early right right right so like What and she had mentioned it took John Fogel like it would have been mentioned it casually Right like he once had a knife, but like it I threw it away a year ago. It's gone So she hunts on that they threw it in the lake, but she never I never thought that anything was gonna come

Of course you know that her fucking son didn't do it. Exactly. And this was a large combat knife and it had a serrated edge. Now the Emmy at the time Frank Paredi, who was kind of a mess. Oh. Like Frank Paredi is kind of a conundrum because like in ways he is a mess,

in another ways he's not a mess. Okay. So it's like, he's just difficult. Now the Emmy had initially said that a lot of the wounds on the boys were likely caused by a serrated knife. Okay. So of course, perfect. Immediately went right. This beautiful hunch that John Folgoman had just paid off. Yeah. So, and there's also like a photo of like the diver holding the knife just became a whole thing. Okay. So January 26, 1994, Jessie went on trial. Oh good. This is Jessie's trial alone.

John Fulgum in that wise wizard was the prosecutor and he only had the confession really with Jessie. That was it. That was the centerpiece of the whole thing. Dan Stidham, Jesse's lawyer, tried to have the confession thrown out because it's insane. Exactly. So Detective Brian Ridge took the stand to explain the confession. Now Brian Ridge was in one of the detectives during the confession. He went on the stand and he explained that the before the tape recorded because he was like what went on before the tape recorded. Right. We don't have any record of that. He said, oh before we started recording that, Jesse told us of satanic orgies, how they ate dogs and sacrificed animals. Meanwhile the park head doesn't even know who satan is. Yes.

He has no idea who satan is. And they asked him why they showed, because remember, they showed Jesse a photo of one of the dead children. Right. And they said, and so, Dan sent him was like, why did you do that? And they said it was to invoke a response, because Jesse would just shut down during questioning, or he would just shut down during questioning. Or he would just say the same thing over and over

and we needed him to say something different. Oh, okay. So you needed him to say that he did it. It's what you're saying. He was telling you his story and you didn't like it. You didn't like it. Exactly. So you decided to show him a dead kid

to get him upset so that he would say, say, please stop. And you would say, I'll stop showing you dead kids when you tell me what I want to hear. Right. So that's what happened. That's really sad, man. And he's basically saying this

on the fucking stand and everybody's like, yeah, yeah, that's totally fine. That's legit. Yeah, that's fine. And it's like, I just want to say to all these people, like, especially the jury, I want to be like, so you would feel like that was okay if it was you in that room and that's what they did. You would feel like that was totally legal and totally legit.

You'd be fine. Yeah, 100%. 100%. Now Dan Stinham went over the confession with Gary Gitchell in court and he pointed out all the inaccuracies. And Gitchell said about these inaccuracies. He said he told a good bit of the truth, even though he got the details completely wrong in some spots. Oh, okay. And then when Danston was like, well, here's all the times when he literally got giant details wrong, or said several different things about one thing. And Gary Gitchell said, quote, Jesse simply got confused. Oh, okay. Got confused about the murder that he committed.

No big deal. No big deal. Now, Dr. William E. Wilkins was a psychologist for the defense. And he has one of the best voices ever, by the way. He said the fact that the crime scene was so clean, was due to the fact that someone with, quote, great cunning and intelligence tried to get rid of every bit of evidence and they did. Uh-huh. Does someone with a great bit of cunning and intelligence

sound like Jesse Muskely? No. No. Now this, uh, this psychologist did not testify. He was not permitted to testify. Which is dumb. This was just him while he talked to the defense lawyers. He was like, yeah, by my assertion of this, is somebody with a lot of cunning and intelligence, plan this out, went through everything to make sure all the evidence was gone. This does not sound like a 17-year-old kid, who was a third grade like.

Any 17-year-old kid. Exactly. So he suggested, he actually suggested, he was like,, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big police interrogation techniques and he was allowed to testify. Okay. He said on the stand that the types of people who normally falsely confess have low self confidence. Jesse, low IQ, Jesse, want to solve the immediate issue the most. So they're literally looking at just what is in front of them. So that you can go home with his dad.

Exactly. So just get that they just want to get the police away from them. So they'll say whatever they need to. They are easily led. Mm hmm. And they naively assume that they can just straighten it all out later. And that's what it is. And Jesse said it later. He's like, I just thought I needed to get them to stop talking to me until let me leave. And I just figured like, we'll figure it out later. I'll just tell them I was lying later. Oh my God.

Like, that's what they believe. And so he pointed out that the leading in the confession and the fact that Jesse was not allowed to narrate it clearly shows that they are telling him, this is what I want you to say. Now say it. And he's going, okay, they're not saying Jesse, tell me what happened. Right. And then just letting him talk. They're like, okay, so you went into the woods. Now you

tell me what you saw when you saw Damien and Jason standing. Like it's all them leading him into it. And he's doing it because he just wants to please them one and two. He just wants to get the fuck out of there. And he wants to go back to his dad, which is so sad. It's so sad. And Warren D. Holmes, the defense expert on police interrogation that said all this, he also said the ligature mix up where he didn't know that they were shoelaces. He's kept saying rope.

And then he kept saying brown rope when it was white and black shoelaces. Right. He said that to him is the most indicative of a false confession. Right. He was like, you don't even know. There's no way he would have got that wrong. There's just no way.

Right. And he got that wrong several times. Right. He could not get that detail right. And that's not just a tiny detail. Like was it, you know, colder, warm out that day. Right. It's like, no, this is a big deal. You would have known what the ligature was.

So one thing that really bothers me in the trial, we're like, because again, this was like one of the first trials that was, cameras were allowed in the courtroom. Right. So one of the parts, Gitchell is on the stand. And Fogumman asks if there was any other suspect that they spoke to, who knew about the genital mutilation

and the mutilation to Steve Branch's face. Right. When he asks this, when he says the face, he touches the right side of his face to demonstrate. Like he's like, did they know about the genital mutilation and did they know about the mutilation to the face and he puts his hand on his face. Okay.

Gitchell says, no, no one else knew. And he says, quote, in fact, you, Mr. Fogelman, touch the wrong side of your face when you said that. It's the left side that was mutilated. And the courtroom, including Fogelman, just laugh. That's not funny. Like, they're all part of this. You're talking about like the mutilation of an eight-year-old. It gave me gross, because it's just like,

it looked like it was this thing that they had already planned. They're gross. It looked like this planned a little thing between them where it was like, in fact, Mr. Fogelman, you touched the wrong side of us in Fogelman, it's like, and just touches the other side of us and the whole core of us, like, that's not funny. And it's like, uh-huh, and just touches the other side of us in the whole core.

I'm like, uh-huh. Like that's not funny. And it's like, what? Guys, are you fucking gay? You're talking about an eight year old. And I know that's just like a small thing, but like that one thing that I watched. I was like gross. Right.

And it just looked like planned planned. It looked very planned out. Like this plan little like, oh, let's have this little like do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do So, after a lengthy back and forth with Dan's item, trying to explain, so Dan's item was just try or stint him. I always say it wrong, stint him, I think it is. Dan's did him. So Dan's did him was trying to explain what he was going to testify to, what this expert was going to be testifying to. He was basically saying that he was going to have him testify whether or not he felt that the confession was coerced, which is what his expertise was on. Right. Burnett said, quote, I'm not going to let, I'm, or excuse me, I'm going to let him testify, but I'm not about to let him testify that in his opinion, Ms. Skelly is innocent. Don't even try to ask him whether or not he has an opinion

whether the confession was true or false because I'm ruling he cannot do that. And I'm not going to allow him to testify in his opinion. These officers, I'm not allowing him to testify in his opinion that these officers illegally exacted or coerced a confession from him either. I'm not going to allow him to testify to that. So what's he gonna testify to? Isn't that the whole fucking point of a trial? Sure is. So he was eventually allowed to testify after Stidum.

I mean, this back and forth, and I got like the back and forth is laid out in Mara Levaritz, the devil's not, which everybody needs to read. That shit is so in-depth. Right. And it has like the transcripts and everything. the devil's not, which everybody needs to read. That shit is so in depth. And it has like the transcripts and everything. The back and forth that resulted between Stidum and the judge and Fogelman about this one fucking witness and what Dan Stidum was allowed to ask. Well, what could the guy even say?

Like at that point, it's like, what's the point of having him on the stage? Well, and then it's like every single time that that um, Stidem would ask a question, fogoming with throw shit fit and say he can't ask that. And then the judge would be like, yep, you can't ask that. And he was like, well, what the fuck am I supposed to ask this dude?

Right. Like why are we even doing? Why are we even having a fucking trial? Literally at one point, Dan Stidham asked the judge, can I write down a question I wanna ask him and give it to you and you can tell me if I can ask him. Wow.

So that like, Fulham and can stop jumping on my ass and like this can all start because he would send the jury out and then they'd talk about it, then bring them back in and then he asked the question, they'd be like, no, you can't do that and they'd send the jury back out. Like, it was like, oh, right can't do that. And they'd send the jury back out. Like, oh my gosh. Right, exactly.

So he finally allowed him to testify. And this doctor said that the best example of leading craziness in this confession is the eight revisiting of the time the crime actually happened. Yeah. Because it's like noon. And he says, it happened at noon.

And then one of the detectives says, oh, happened after school and that's not noon so that's not after school so they were like they're suggesting to him I think it happened after school Jesse and Jesse's like yep it happened after school so every time they suggest something he just goes yep that's how it is. He never, ever goes against something they suggest. Exactly. In that confession. And then they follow up with the night you were in the woods. After he just said noon, then after school,

then it turns into the night you were in the woods. And right after they say that, Jesse goes with it. He goes, yep, that night when I was in the woods, blah, blah, blah. Right, because he just goes with it. He just goes with it. He just goes with it. And this, yep, that night when I was in the woods, blah, blah, blah. Right. He just goes, we're all with it. We'll all say that because then they'll leave me alone. And this, this expert says he never used nighttime before that.

It was only when they should defend it. One day should defend it. And it happened every time. So they said, this is just a prime example of getting him to accept this narrative from their suggestion. They keep doing it. This is prime example of a coerce confession. I don't see how anybody could not see that.

Now one reason that this expert was stopped from testifying, like in the middle of his testimony because he was stopped many times, he was stopped because Stidem literally asked him, quote, doctor, is it possible for police interrogation tactics to produce a false confession? He literally asked him, is it possible, not even in this case?

Like, did this happen? For any police interrogation tactics in any setting to have a false confession be the result. He's just asking that generally, not even for the case, just is that a possibility that that can happen. And they would have let me answer some time. Well, the doctor starts to answer. And he says, you know what, he offers up an empirical study, a scientific study in Stanford law review about false confessions, where they looked at 350 cases where someone was found guilty and was actually innocent. So he starts to say this. He's like, oh, well, actually in the stand for

law review, but put it up. The judge immediately stops him and says, nope, that's not allowed. Why? So Fulgumin like shits his pants at this question. Like, Fulham and his like, RAH! They can't ask that! Like, freaks out." And Burnett said, quote, I'm interpreting this as an attempt to use coercive techniques on the jury to suggest to them that this is a false confession, and that there is danger in their considering the confession, and that it suggests to them that they have to be very careful not to make a

350 error whatever the percentage was. What? Exactly. So what he's saying is I think that you're trying to convince the jury by asking if a false confession ever happens in the history of police interrogations, you're trying to convince the jury that this is false. Right. And then you're scaring them by using that scary empirical study from the Stanford Law Review, and they're gonna think that they're making the same error

that those other 350 cases, which is exact. And I love that he calls it out to do. That they need to be very careful not to make a 350 error Whatever the percentage was like are you educated sir? You're killing it, bro Cool cool cool cool. So this is when that and that's when Dan's item is like can I write down a fucking question and hand it to you He must have wanted to like that Bank his head against the wall that poor fucking man. He did all he could do man He really did I don't understand how this happened. It is mind boggling. Yeah, this all happened

He was truly bangin' his set up against a wall, and I hope they all get Stung by a bee in the butt every day every day every person so that it never heals And it's just always so warm. No all over their butt all of their butt And it never heals, and it's just always so warm with this. No, all over their butt. All over their butt. So real quick, I am about, this is like a little bit of a trigger warning, because I mean, if you're this far in, this whole episode is going to trigger.

Just in case. I'm about to talk about rape, and I'm about to be slightly graphic. Skip forward, if you don't want to hear it, it'll be pretty quick. I just need to prove a little point Now the part that really bothers me about this confession is The rapes that just that didn't happen continuously said happened

During the confession Jesse said the boys were violently raped several times. I mean he says Many times, you know, Damien started screwing them. Jason started screwing them. They asked where, you know, what rapes, you know, anal, oral, whatever. He said both. Oh. And he said many times. I mean, it didn't just happen once, according to this quote-unquote confession.

The thing is, there's no evidence to this. None. No one. No medical examiner saw any evidence of rape. Right. No tearing, no nothing, no bruising, nothing. So they brought the, they are eight year old boys. Yeah, you would know.

If they were violently raped in the way that Jesse described several times, there would be a lot of evidence to this. A lot. And there was none. Several medical examiners agreed. There was none. Right. So this was brought forward. So they brought this up to Jesse after the trial. They were like, hey, there's no evidence that they were raped. Why did you say that? Why would you say that? And Jesse said, oh yeah, they were going to rape them, but then they were raped. Why did you say that? Why would you say that? And Jesse said, oh yeah, they were gonna rape them, but then they didn't Okay, does this sound like somebody who was fucking there and it's telling the truth? No half of his story

The first time was that they were Quote-quote screwing them right and then he comes back and he's like oh, you know, they were gonna do that but then they didn't After he's told that there's literally no physical evidence to that. This is so sad. And now the officers all testified that they also never took notes for the time before the recorded confession and that they couldn't even really remember what he said or discussed during that time in most cases.

You would think a story this during what he would have had to say before you'd fucking remember. Yeah, all they could really remember was they were like, yeah, I know he talked about satanic orgies. Yeah, totally. And like killing and eating dogs. Like, I know that, but like other than that, I don't know. And we didn't write anything down,

and we didn't record anything. And we lost a lie detector test at one point. It's totally fine. No, yeah. So the prosecution brought out the big guns, and they brought on the stand, one Vicki Hutchinson. Oh, good. Now, this is the waitress who I'm not saying waitress in a derogatory mask. I was a fucking waitress. Just in case anyone because we did get yelled at by one person.

I this is just funny. So I had to say no, it's we got yelled at for referring to Vicki as a waitress. Right. When her profession was a waitress, a waitress, and Ash was a waitress for five years of my life. So I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but a Vicki Hutchinson, the waitress, took the stand and she testified about that as spot that, you know, the one that she said, Jesse and Damian drove her to and Jesse stayed at while her and Damian left because she was just so offended by the whole thing. Meanwhile Damian couldn't drive. Nope, couldn't drive and the whole thing just didn't happen. And the car didn't exist. And the one that she later admitted she lied like a fucking

rug about and she literally said that she lied about the entire thing, the whole thing, and that the reason she did it was that Jerry Driver and all those detectives told her to do it. And so she went on the stand at a murder trial and lied about this. She told a bullshit story. What do you think would have happened? Had she not? I mean, I think that definitely was a big, I'm sure, in the jury's minds, that was like, Huch. Oh, well shit. There it is.

This woman's saying she went to a satanic orgy with him. Right. What else do you need to hear? Like, that's their whole thing. What do you think the police would have like done to her? I mean, I don't know. Did they have done anything? She did have like small fraud charges on her record and stuff.

They could have sent those out. So they just blackmailed her. Yeah, they, oh, they definitely blackmailed her for sure. And I think like this was perfect because one of the things that really stands out in this case and to see this day, none of them can really, you know, quote on this, there was no motive for this whatsoever. Right. They had zero motive. them can really quote on this, there was no motive for this whatsoever. Right. They had zero motive. The only motive they had was Satan and ritualistic homicide.

That's it. Okay. There was no motive. So without that a spot in that satanic meeting and her being like, yep, I was there. It happened. There's really nothing except for his bullshit confession, which doesn't make any sense. Now, they also had another star witness named William Jones. He ended up not coming to go on the stand because he turned out to be a lying shit head too. Oh, it's weird how many lying shitheads they got together about week. So crazy. He was a teenager and he told his mom that Damian got drunk and bragged him that he did the crimes. Oh. William admitted he was lying right before testifying.

And he was like, I just don't want to lie under oath. I feel like that's bad juju. So, I'll lie everywhere else. I'll lie that's bad juju. So I lie everywhere else. I lie to the police to my mom to everybody else, but I'm not under oath. I'm not worried and trouble for it. Like, you're lying about a kid murdering three little children. That's the thing. I'm like, that doesn't sound like a fun lie.

Yeah. Yep. And Jerry Driver was then put on the stand. Oh, goodie. To say that Jesse, he was like, he was put on there literally just to say that Jesse hung out with Damien and Jason. What's up with you guys?

What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys?

What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys?

What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up with you guys? What's up a walking stick? What? It's just like like what? Like a goddamn wizard basically like okay. They also had cloaks now Just a reminder no forensic evidence linked Jesse to the crime

There was no motive whatsoever. So Jesse is sitting there thinking Jesus. This is boring Can't wait to be done with this and go. Can't wait to hang out with my dad. Literally the whole time. Oh my God. There was an eight, that trial lasted eight days. And then he was convicted of first degree murder and the death of Michael Moore and second degree murder and the deaths of Stephen Branch and Chris Biers after only one day of jury deliberation. He was sentenced to life plus 20-year sentences.

My God. He got the first degree murder charge for Michael Moore because in that confession, he says he chased Michael Moore down and held him there while the other. So he got the first degree murder for him. And one of the most outspoken, which I understand so the buyers, parents, Melissa buyers and John Mark buyers. Right. They were one of the ones that spoke the most.

I think Michael Moore's parents were very quiet, very chill people. And then Pam Hobbs kind of spoke to, you know, Stevie's mom kind of spoke to me a lot. Terry Hobbs didn't really say a lot. Wonder why. But the buyers were just, I mean John Mark Buyers is a trip. Yes, to say the least. And Melissa Buyers was an angry grieving mother. Yeah. And it's like, I understand. I get it. Like, I would also be wishing the fucking worst on these kids because again, they're being told by the police like, all this shit, all this shit that makes it seem like, yeah, they did it.

Right. And if you think these three fuckers murdered your eight-year-old, of course you're going to say, of course you're going to want to tell them that you hope they rot in hell and like terrible things happen to them. So I get it. But I'm just gonna play the clip of what Melissa said after Jessie was sentenced. Okay. This doesn't change anything. Our sister's still dead. And he was tortured to death by free murder and bastard on a ditch bike he was eight years early. And guilty is guilty.

And I hope the little sucker when he hits comens they get his ass right off the bat because he deserves to be tortured and punished for the rest of his life for murder and three eight-year-old children. So yeah, he she was, I mean that's a grieving mother, he has an angry grieving mother and I totally can't help it again. I would have said the same exact thing. I think any parent can understand that or anybody who loves any child in their life can understand that. Again, they were the ones that spoke the most to the media and after he was sentenced to life in prison, she had one more thing to say and it's pretty colorful and I just think we should share it. Okay.

First I'm not a cyclist. Jessie, sweetie. I'm a male and skirt. Wowsers. Big wolf. Big wolf. So, you know, if you think this dude murdered your child, I'd be male and I'm a skirt as well. So, I get it. Yeah.

So I just thought that would, you know, help paint a picture here. So, now Jessie has been sentenced convicted sentence one down. There's two more to go now so Fogelman and the other Prosecutor Davis, I think his name is Brent Davis. He was a real dick. Oh good another one You know what it all them Brent Davis and John Fogelman just have like another one, we need all of them. Brent Davis and John Fogum and just have like, just those faces that you wanna do, that you just wanna be like, shut up.

Resting do, face. Yeah, it really is, it's just like, God. So Fogum and in Davis, we're now trying to convince Jesse to testify against Damien and Jason. Okay. Now they're saying to him, sure you've been sentenced to life in prison, but if you testify against them,

we'll lessen your sentence. Because they know. Because now they're like, cool, we manipulated him into confessing. Right. That we can manipulate him into testifying now. And they said, we'll remove the life sentence,

we'll give you a way, lesser sentence. They told him Damien and Jason would most likely get off scot free without his testimony against them. Okay, because they were like, we don't, because they basically were like, we don't have any evidence. So if you don't testify against them, they're going to get off. And then they said, when they're released, they're probably going to find your girlfriend

Suzy. Oh my God. And they were like, and do you wanna be responsible for that? How do they even say that to him? And poor Jessie was like, no I don't. It's like, well shit. Now, side note, in Paradise Lost, there is a conversation

when Jessie is in prison between him and his girlfriend Suzy. They love each other so much. It's... It's the most... I mean, it's just one of those conversations that you like, can we make this stop now? Because Jesse is telling her about a dream he had where they just had sex everywhere. Oh and he keeps going, it freaked me out!

He's like it was awful! And the camera's just fixed on Susie. Poor Susie is sitting there turning bright red, being like, oh, okay, this is fun. She's like, we're on camera, let's talk about anything else. This is a documentary, and you feel like you're like, I shouldn't be watching this. Yeah. These are 17 year olds.

I don't want to watch this. That's wrong. And it's just so when they said that about Susie, I was like, poor Susie. Oh God. That's like God, David. I bet you Susie moved out of town. I bet she did.

She seems sweet. Oh. Sweet Susie. Oh. So now this is when, so obviously I'm sure, in his head, Jesse, I'm sure the first thing you're thinking is like, yeah, I want a lesser sentence. Right. But Jesse's mother, who is not his birth mother, but the mother, who in the documentary,

you see her, she like raised her. I love her. And she seemed really sweet. She does. She like really loved him. And he really loved her. He called her his mother. She said, I'm going to be in that courtroom.

And if you lie under oath, I'm going to know it. And you're going to be doing it in front of me. And like say your respect to me, would you do that in front of me? Oh, she was so smart. That's a smart tactic. And also his father said, if you lie under oath, then you're gonna have to live with that forever. Right. And then he said, but if you tell the truth,

then someday your name is gonna be cleared because of your honesty. Right. And he was like, so they both were like, so just chew on that. Uh-huh. Like, we're not telling you what to do. We're just saying we don't know. That was smart. So they both said that.

And so Jesse decided the day before their trials against testifying and trusting me in adjacent, because he said I would be lying if I did. Wow. These kids, when it comes down to it, a lot of them, they take care of each other. Yeah, it's like they, I know Jesse confessed and put them into this. I'm sure this people that are like, what the fuck?

But let's look at, we have to look at everything that happened and it's like in the end, Jesse did not put the nail in the coffin when he could have. We could have just kept going with this, have been like, right. But in the end, he was like, nope, I'd be lying. So the DA also tried to get Jason to testify against Damien.

And they were brothers. They were brothers. And they were basically saying, you can have a lesser sentence Jason if you just testify against him. But it's it in Jason. So in Jesse's supposed confession, he painted Jason as a monster. Yeah.

Who murdered these boys just like Damien. Right. He did not paint him as like Jason was sitting by and do a lot. So if they really believed that confession, would they be offering to give Jason 10 years in prison? Only? Nope. They would not be doing that. Nope. They first offered him something like 40 years. Holy shit. And he was like, no, I'm not like I'm not doing that. And then they were like, Jason, you can have 10, we'll knock it down to 10 if you just testify against him. Wow. That's bananas. Again, if they believe that confession,

they would be letting a fucking monster out of the streets. Evil, evil person. Well, Jason, again, even with the 10 years, he said no, because he said it's a lie. And even his own lawyers begged him to take that deal. And he was like, no, I don't lie. Go for him. So much integrity, like flying around here.

Yeah, it's crazy. So all they had in Fulgum, so all these, the prosecution had, and Fulgum sits and goes through this in the HBO doc, and there's also in Devils Not, I'm just gonna read you what he says. They did not have a lot on these boys, especially, I mean, they didn't have a lot on these boys,

especially, I mean, they didn't have anything on either one of them. But he lays it out. He says, if Jesse's confession is excluded, we don't have much. Which to me, I'm like, doesn't that tell you that there's really no case here? Right. So basically what they had was three fibers.

Now, he said this was fiber evidence, but basically what it was was, it was like a green fiber and a red fiber found on the boys. And they were like, they could be a match to clothing found in either one of the boys because they both had green and red shirts. Exactly. And it was like things like from like a robe and stuff and it could be from any robe. Right. Fiber evidence is not, it wasn't matched down to the garment.

Right. It was matched down to like a garment. Okay. That could be that garment. So fiber evidence that was not strong at all. That was like nothing. There was also somebody who said that they saw Damian and Dominie on the service road outside of Robin Hill Hills, but the problem with that was Dominie wasn't there.

That was putting Dominie on the scene when the confession didn't. And it was also not including Jason. Right. So that didn't work. And they also had statements by two teenage girls, or actually ended up being a few teenage girls at a softball game, who all said that they heard Damien confess. Uh-huh. But we're going to get to that in a minute how bonkers that is. And then they also had, and we'll get into this too, a statement from a guy who was in prison with Jason for a couple of months when he was being held before the trial, who said that

he confessed to him that he did it. Okay. But that is going to be pulled apart as well. So they don't have, all they have is people saying, I heard them say they did it. That's all they have. So basically, let's see, so going back to the fiber evidence, what it's called is microscopically similar, not a match. Okay, so that's not a good thing at all. And then they also had that knife that was found in the lake that didn't match anything. The hundredth night, Any sense. But okay.

So Dr. Frank Peretti, the medical examiner, like I said before, he had already said that there was no evidence of sexual assault at all. He had said that in Jesse's trial. Now, the defense asked Judge Burnett to rule that the prosecution could not say the boys were satanized or sexually assaulted in Jason and Damien's trial because the evidence had suggested that they were not. So they were like, they shouldn't be allowed to even imply that they were because they weren't. The evidence says they weren't. Right. And also a huge emotional weight comes along with sexual assault of a child.

Yup. So it shouldn't even be mentioned. It shouldn't be implied in any way, and there needs to be a ruling that says that. Right. Well, there wasn't. What did Judge Burnett do? What do you do? What do you think he did?

Not the right thing. He allowed the prosecution to claim that they were satautomized. But they weren't. Yep. And there were several medical examiners who said, no, they were not. But he let them mention it and apply it. Put it out there. But they couldn't mention a study that happened. But they couldn't mention something in the Stanford Law Review. Okay. That seems legit. So February 28th, 1994, Damian and Jason's trial begin. No, no.

Um, the assistant medical examiner, Dr. Frank Paredi, who we have mentioned, uh, and I mention that he's like a kind of good and kind of not good at all. Mm-hmm. So Frank Paredi is the medical examiner in Arkansas, or he was he was, he was not impartial because the Emmy in Arkansas at the time actually was basically working for the prosecution. Oh. So it was just not an impartial. And everywhere else in the country, it's usually a very impartial. I don't have horse in this race position. Right. But not for this. Also, at the time time he was not bored certified. Oh, actually failed his boards. Oh, okay. Yeah, so that's so he is now If you check on him, but at the time he was not perfect

He testified about scratch marks found all over the boys bodies because there was a lot of scratch marks And he said that they were the result of a serrated knife being dragged repeatedly down their bodies to torture them That would just make scratch marks, but not actually like breaking sand just scratching I doubt that. I feel like I really don't think that makes sense. It didn't And he also said that they were hit with a serrated blade over and over to inflict injuries that were seen. Okay Now he cited a book called Friends of Pathology written by Dr. Vincent D'Ameo for where he came up with most of his assertions for this.

Yeah. Now, keep this thing in mind, because we're going to probably... We're going to talk about this at the end of this episode a little bit and also in the next episode. The book? Yeah, in Dr. Vincent D'Ameo.

Okay. Who does not agree with that assertion? Oh, so he put this all out there. So now this is lining up with the serrated knife found in the lake. And they're saying, oh, look at this. It's the same thing. Now in 2009, just skipping ahead really quick, Dr. Michael Baden, who I've mentioned before, he's amazing. He's a top forensic pathologist. He's going to be a crime call on everybody. I hope crime call is going to save. It's not going to save. So in 2009, Dr. Michael Baton was brought into reassess these autopsy findings for Jason

and Jesse's retrial, and he said the autopsy findings looked like they were trying to fit the satanic cult prosecution mold. Oh, weird. Probably because they were. And he said, quote, I think unfortunately, that quick assumption of a satanic cult colored the autopsy interpretations and police investigations wrongly. So he came out in 2009 was like, no, no, no, no, that was not it at all. Boom. So he's not the only one who disputed these autopsy results, but we're going to get to that after. Okay. So at the time, this is what Dr. Frank Prattie is saying. Okay. So then they brought in Michael Roy Carson. He was a 16 year old prisoner. This is the kid I was talking about that went to was in the juvenile prison where Jason was being held before trial Okay, Michael Roy Carson

He was in there with with Jason in August 1993, okay, and they shared this time together He had a long rap sheet. He did a ton of acid and plenty of other At plenty of other drugs. Uh-huh I'm not saying anything about of acid and plenty of other drugs. I'm not saying anything about acid and, you know, do what you do, whatever you wanna do, but like, just putting that out there. Yeah.

And he had a long rap sheet. He said on the stand, they brought him in because he said on the stand that Jason bragged to him about the murders. He said, this happened five months earlier. He said that Jason told him, quote, he said, no, this is gross and graphic, just put that out there. He said that Jason said, quote, he sucked the blood from the penis and the scrotum and

put the balls in his mouth. Oh, yeah. This was only revealed because he was having his own legal problems and suddenly decided to reveal this to help himself out. Right. Because they were like, why did it take you five months to do this? And he's like, oh, no, no. Meanwhile, he has legal shit that's going on and they were like, oh, we'll help you out if you just testify. Uh-huh. Now, when they asked him why it took five months, he said that he had seen the grieving families

crying on TV, they were so upset. And he said, quote, I have a soft heart. I just couldn't take it. Oh, okay. Is that how you landed yourself in prison? He later recanted. Yeah, I believe that. Yep.

He said he heard those things, not from Jason, but from a counselor in the prison who was just spreading a rumor. Perfect. And he decided he heard that and was like, oh, that's gross and weird. And then he found out that, you know, this is going on trial. And I love to get less and less and less and less. He's got all these leader issues and they're coming up and he's like, well, shit, I can pretend that he said it to me. Oh my God.

The amount of fucking shit bags in this case. Stride up shit bags. And it's also in the beginning, it was like the $35,000 reward. That was for information about this case. That drew in a lot of people because this is a lot of poor people that are looking, that $35,000, especially at the time, was huge. Do you know if anybody ended up getting 35,000 dollars?

I don't think so. Yeah. No. Um, so Fulgum and Ask Detective Brian Ridge, what books he found Damien to be reading when he was interviewed the many times that they had. Can you hold it up? Can you imagine if your library was taken into account? Oh no. You would be guilty as charged. That's literally all I could think about our reading.

Do you know? If that was solely what they used to convict you, I would have to visit you in jail days. There's so many things in this case that I was like, well shit. You're like, I have that same book. I would have 100% been in these shoes. If they looked at even my room, they'd be like, she didn't do it. Yeah, they'd be like, no have that same book. I would have 100% been in these shoes.

If they looked at even my room, they'd be like, she didn't do it. Yeah, they'd be like, no, she's good. She's good. She's good. She's good here. But if they looked at my shit, you'd be fucked. We'd be in trouble. And especially books, like when I got to this one, Fogo Man starts asking what books

Stamined with? Like that has any bear in it. Why is that a murder? I was like, oh shit, don't look at mine. Like, oh my. And basically, Brian Ridge said, when we went to his trailer and saw in his, you know, his room, he was reading Stephen King books

and stuff by Anton Leve. And he said he thought it was strange in his opinion that he went that, Stephen King is not, not well factored into Damien's fate. Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King.

Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King rules. Stephen King. Stephen King.

Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King. But that if the fact that his library is brought into this shouldn't is blowing my mind Now judge Burnett said it didn't matter that information being introduced into the strile was obtained Remember when they were they basically cornered minors in front of Jason's home without a lawyer or their or their parents present Yeah, judge Burnett said it didn't matter that that's how it was obtained. It's just the fact that it was obtained.

All of it was fine and admissible, even though it was obtained that way, which is illegal. But that's fine. And then, so he said, that's all fine, that's all well and good, that's like the way they obtained it is not bad. But he said, information like what he read

and what he had known about the case from the media That's fine too. We want to hear about his books We want to hear about what he knew about the case from the media. This is all gonna factor into it Oh, okay, so it's like fair trial to me. So it's like what does it make any sense? Now next to the prosecution brought Dr. Dale W. Griffiths on as an expert on the occult. This guy is bananas. He was brought into this mess by Jerry fucking driver. Shocking. Yeah.

When asked about Satanist, he said that he personally witnessed them wearing, quote, black fingernails, having their hair painted black, wearing black t-shirts. Sometimes they will tattoo themselves. Sometimes they will tattoo themselves. Sometimes, okay. He said the fact that it was, so he said, you know, the fact that the killings occurred near the festival of Belten, which is on May 1st, meant it was probably satanic. Okay. Meanwhile, Belten is like a Scottish festival and it hails the return of summer,

the fertility of the land and the protection of all living things from troubling forces. Oh, so this would not have happened. Yeah, totally. Also, Beltains on May 1st, and the murders happened several days after that. So that doesn't really make sense. Like where they just like, whoops, we missed Beltain. Let's go murder some kids. And also I don't think you'd murder anybody on Beltain.

Don't think so. Am I just like plant a tree? Yeah, it doesn't really make sense. Now, here's an exchange between the defense and Griffiths. Okay. Or no, excuse me, not the defense, the prosecution and Griffiths. So they said, okay, now is eight a factor because because they were eight years old. Because that is a witch's number. What's the significance of 8?

8 is a witch's number? Well Griffith says, okay, in Crowley's work, he discusses that sex before 8 or you lose the magical power. So they say sex before 8 or lose the magical power. Okay, so that if the victims were all eight years old, then that wouldn't be sex before eight, correct? Uh-huh. And Griffith says, I said, say eight, I'm sorry, not nine, eight or before. Eight is a witches number. What? What? Yep. What is what is that answer? So basically what he's saying is so they were like, well, wait, if they were eight years old and it's sex before eight. It didn't work out.

That wouldn't work and it would not make any sense. And he's like, oh, you know what, did I say eight? I mean, not. I mean, nine or younger. So eight is okay. Right. A.K.A, I forgot how old the victims were. And I totally forgot any of this

and it didn't line up with the narrative. So now it does, Now I made it. Now eight is a witch's number was cited by the Arkansas State Supreme Court in upholding this verdict. Oh yes. Yep. That long pause was my face dropping. Sure was. face dropping. Sure was. Now Ford asked him about his education. Ford is one of the defense attorneys. He asked him about his education. He was like, well, you're in a cult expert and you're a doctor. You're a PhD. How did you get that? Right. And he said he had a PhD from Columbia Pacific University. from Columbia Pacific University. It was a mail order college degree.

No. He called, so price or a, yeah, Ford asks him, like calls him out about it. He's like, you have a mail order college fucking PhD. Right. I didn't even know that was an option. Sure it is. I would have done that.

And Griffiths finally admitted that he took zero classes to gain his PhD. In case you didn't hear that zero. So he has a PhD with zero classes. How much do you think he paid for that? I have no idea. This college quote unquote was also closed by court order in 2000. What?

Because it's just one of those, and it's funny because Ford holds up the male order thing and is like, did you get one of these in the male? Like, and you just fill it out. Right. And he's like, yes. And he's like, and that's when he's like, how many keeps going, he goes, how many classes did you take? And he was like, well, I already said that, and then he's like, no, how many classes? And he has to say, how many classes did you take? Like six times? And finally he goes, none.

I took none. Oh, and that was let, and you're like, that motherfucker. That motherfucker. Well, and then they're like, hey, Judge Bernat, how come he's an expert witness, but he literally does not have a fuck, like he has a mail order. He might as well be like

A random dude that they pulled off the street that morning. Well it might as well just be like I Really like pickles because I think they taste good. I am an expert on pickles, right? Like what? So they're like judge bonnet. He's not an expert because he has a mail order PhD Can you just all agree on that and judge brinette was like You can be an expert just from life No, he didn't say that he said that he totally did from life now Judge brinette wouldn't he denied a polygraph expert to to testify

Because he would have full expert with a malored PhD. He would have contradicted the results that said that they were guilty. And he also wouldn't let a false confessions expert in. And he also doesn't believe psychologists have any business on there. But there's a cult expert who did a malored PhD and just says life experience, man. He should be allowed lot. Wow that's that's a judge, huh? Totally. Okay. But he also thought it was pretty pertinent to

talk about the fact that the murders occurred on a full moon. Oh. The judge thought that judge wanted to mention. He was like, no, it was a full moon that night. So, so let's get this straight. Psychologists, no, no, no, no, no, no. False confessions expert. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Polygraph expert. No, no, no, no, no. Let's talk about the lunar phases though. That definitely has a bearing on this. Okay. This is a fucking capital murder trial of three eight-year-olds. Well, the full moon makes everybody act a little zinger. Like are you kidding me right now? He wasn't. I wish.

So this is when Damian's stuff was like just torn apart. Right. They started telling you about how he had a book of shadows. Same. Same. He's, uh, his music tastes were like crazy. And he had animal skullss and it was all bullshit. Okay. So this is when the end and again none of these things have any bearing on murdered children.

This is like how you like to decorate your home. This is nothing. This is just straight up like goth kid. This is crazy. So Bernette literally asked out loud during the trial. What and what the occult was? He didn't know what the occult was. Who asked that? Judge Bernette. The judge. Okay. Okay. He said quote, I don't know what an occult is. It sounds like something bad, but I'm not sure what it is. Oh my god. Sweetie child. So this is when price asks if they are planning to now use a cult killing as a motive and Fogelman says quote We have not made a final firm decision, but at this point I would say yes Okay, so then Burnett asked if he was gonna link Jason with this a cult motive and Fogelman said because he was like, okay

We can definitely like I get Jason or I get Damien So you're gonna link Jason in with this too, just so I'm clear. And Fogoman said, quote, your honor, that is something that will have to be talked about with the expert. It is my understanding that part of the involvement deals with the obsession with heavy metal music, change in forms of dress, wearing all black.

And I believe that proof would show that Jason had 15 black t-shirts with the heavy metal thing. And he had some kind of animal, either claws or teeth, I think they said they were claws in his possession. What? So... He has 15 black shirts, so he's a murderer. Yeah? Okay. Yeah. Well, call me a fucking murderer then. Well, then.

Because I probably got double that. Well, and the judge was like, are you seriously letting black, the defense was like, are you seriously letting black T-shirts be the reason to convict him? Like are we really pretending that that's okay? And the judge was like, yeah, totally. Yep. Oh my God, this is fucked. Like what? So this is when the softball girls are brought in.

I mentioned before a few teenage girls were like, I totally are Jason Ty, or Damien talk about murdering those boys. So they were like, like Damien was not a fucking softball game. Well, and so this is a very convoluted chain of events. So here's what it is. Jenny Deacon said Rachel Myers had overheard Damian confess

at the softball game. Okay. Rachel Myers said she overheard this from Shelley Wolf. Okay. Shelley Wolf said she heard this from Shannon Bowles. Okay. Shannon Bowles said she heard this from Michelle Carter. Okay. Michelle Carter said she heard this from Shannon Bowles.

Oh, so we have a circle. Also Michelle Carter, that's scary. I know, that's for Katie LaFoy said she heard Damien confess this at the softball game on the first of June. And she said also with her who heard this was Jody Medford. Jody Medford said she heard him confess during the week of May 24. Okay. And in her June 7, 1993 statement, she said her sister Jackie Medford and another girl,

Kristi Van Vickle, were there. But then when she testified, she said Jackie and Kristi were not there. But then when she testified, she said Jackie and Christy were not there. Oh. Jackie Medford said she was with Jody Medford and Christy Van Vickle when she heard him confess. Jesse Medford. Jessica Medford said she overheard Katie Hendrix ask Damien if he killed the kids. And then Christy Van Vickle said she was with Jackie Medford and heard him confess. All these girls sound like basic bitches. So to me, if you're gonna spill the tea, spill the fucking tea. This sounds rock solid, right?

No. Rock solid. It sounds like you were passing a note and it got... This is like a really bad game of telephoning. No. So all it is. It sounds like you were passing a note and it got my- This is like a really bad game of telephone. My favorite and what is when it goes through like six of them and then loops right back around and you're like, wait, wait. It's like, oh it was Shelly.

But this one said you heard it from now and then you said you heard it from the first one who said that you heard it from you. I heard that my cousin heard that my sister heard that my sister heard from my cousin that this house. And then it turns into, well then this girl asked him and he said he did. But then the other one says, you know, I heard him say, it's very rock solid. That's something, all right.

Very rock solid. Now, here's when the defense decided to put Damian on the stand. Oh, bad choice. And I guess they figured, you know, he was intelligent, he was very articulate, and that they could show he was, you know, just like a cocky kid, and they could be like, look, see, this is not a murderer,

but like backfired, in like a major way. Yeah. So the thing that they really harped on him for was they used to coat, so they used this coated cipher that Damien had done in prison, and it was him like practicing using the cipher symbols because he was bored in prison He had written out like in symbols Jason's name his name Domini's name Yeah, it's like people he knew and he also wrote out Alistair Crowley's name and Alistair Crowley I'm sure a lot of people is sitting no. He's like a famous occultist. Okay.

Wrote a ton of books. He's like a, you know, a cult magician. He's very controversial. So probably wasn't the best time to write this name down. Of course not. And they of course asked about Alistair Crowley. And Damien said he hadn't read any of his stuff, but he said, but then he added,

given the chance, he would. Oh. So he was just being truthful. He was like, I know I added, given the chance, he would. Oh, so he was just being truthful. He was like, I know I haven't had the chance to read it, but I would if I could. Yeah. So then they asked him about Wicca. Mm-hmm. And he told them what it was, and he said it in a very like thoughtful way. He said, quote, it acknowledges a goddess and a higher regard as a god, because people

have always said where all gods children and men cannot have children It's basically a close involvement with nature. Okay, sounds nice It does and then they made it like oh, so you're a witch Mm-hmm And then they went into this journal he had and the journal had like pentagrams on it and you know Just random symbols that he was drawing on it and you know just random symbols that he was drawing on it like I doodle weird shit all over my stuff too. Right. So they said they asked him about it and he said this right here is like my

home journal. I had one for school and one for home. So then they said I notice on the inside of the front cover there appears to be a couple quotes there. Could you read each of these to the jury and tell them where they came from? Oh, no. So he says, so he quotes, life is but a walking shadow. It is a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

That's from a mid-Summer Night's Dream by William Shakespeare. Which are like, damn little Arkansas boy, like a poor Arkansas boy is like quoting Arkansas boys, like quoting William Shakespeare, like a fam. And then he quotes pure black looking clear, my work is soon done here. Try getting back from me that which used to be.

And he says that is often a talika tape called Injustice for All. It talks about how warp to the court systems are, stuff like that. Oh shit. And when he says, in the video, he's like, and he kind of like looks up at the stars. This is really bad time.

Like his eyes just kind of like flit up at him like, well, fuck, sorry sir. Sorry. And he says, the other one is from the Twilight Zone quote, I've kicked open a lot of doors in my time and I'm willing to wait for this one to open and when it does I'll be waiting. Okay. Yeah. All pretty chill quotes. So then they say on the back of it, on the back and the inside portion, the rest of the writings are in here. Did you write all the items in here? And he says no, this one right here is lyrics to a tape. Me and Jason

every time one of us would get a tape that the other one didn't have, we would make copies of it for each other and copy the lyrics down to. Oh, that's okay. And they say, alright, and he says, and that's what this is from. So they say, what's the name of this particular song? And he says, fade to black. And they ask, and what rock group does that song?

And he says, Metallica. And they say, did you like Metallica? Metallica music? And he says, yes. And they said, and did you listen to that Metallica music? And he says, yes. And they said, and did you listen to that quite a bit? And he says, yes. Okay. Now again, how fucking pertinent is this to a fucking murder? Right. I don't understand. Right. So then another thing that they asked him that was really interesting was they said, okay, also there's the, as part of the investigation, the West Memphis Police Department did a search warrant on the Crittenden County Library. And they had

the search warrant indicates that there was a book on witchcraft by Cotton Mather on witchcraft. Is that a book that you had checked out? And he says, yes, I checked that out. And they say, and what was the reason that you checked that book out? And he says, yes, I checked that out. And they say, and what was the reason that you checked that book out? And he says, just to read it. Most people who were looking at the cover, they would think that it was a witchcraft book, but it was really an anti-witch craft book. That was wrote by a Puritan minister. It was on different ways that during the Salem persecution era, they used to find ways to torture people or just keep them locked up until they would finally say,

yeah, I'm a witch in all this, and then they would kill them. Wow. Ironic is fond. This is fond. This is fond, the sand. Right. And so they say, all right, in addition,

they also, the West Memphis Police Department seized a book on magic. Do you remember checking out a book on magic in the past? And he says, if it's the one I'm thinking about, yes. And they say, what type of magic was that about? Or do you recall that? And he says, that was about everything in the history of magic, from like all religions, really like Hinduism and Buddhism,

some things from Christianity, like exorcisms, things like that. And they say, and did you find that interesting to read? And he says, yes. So this was all, again, they're being like, so did you like reading about magic? You mother fucking witch. And it's just like, and meanwhile he's sitting here being like,

yeah, it was like this one was about written by a Puritan minister, and it was like going into the history of the persecution of witch, it's like, this fucking this one was about written by a Puritan minister and it was like going into the history of the persecution of Wichit, it's like this fucking kid is like really smart in himself. And then he's talking about, he's reading a book about like Hinduism and Buddhism and Christianity and like just reading into all these religions. Right.

See, you're a fucking Wich though and he's like, what the fuck? He's like, nah, not yet. Like are you kidding me right now? So one of the things that the jurors did was they wrote out pro and conless for each witness and defendant. Every juror. All of them were, that's how they like, they just went through the deliberations.

On Damien's, they had written in huge letters under a bunch of pros and cons, mostly cons. They wrote in big capital letters, you are what you think about. So they were literally saying he thinks about magic, he thinks about dark shit, he's a dark shit. Like they were literally, they were saying whatever's in your brain, you are that. I don't think so the most dangerous way of thinking ever Right, and they used it to convict him right that he thinks dark thoughts So he did it one also those are dark thoughts. He's just

Educating themselves on different his thought himself on different religions Well, and he also had like angsty poems and stuff Yeah, like you did not 17 and it's, but they're literally saying you're into witchcraft. You must be a killer. Okay. No, it is like, nope. And it's that shows to me seeing that and I saw that in in the Devils not book. That's where I saw the like big letters. You are what you think. You know what you think about that are what you think of her. That to me stood out the most, because it was like, whoa.

That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think.

That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think.

That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. That's how you think. 1994, Jason and Damien were found guilty of capital murder. My God. Did Jason ever get a chance to take the stand? No, he did not take the stand. They didn't want him to, I don't think, because they didn't think it was a good idea for Damien too, but they didn't. So then it took two hours and 20 minutes to decide that Jason would spend life in prison and Damien would be put to death by lethal injection.

Wow. Two hours and 20 minutes. And you have to look at that too and say, why would they not get the same, why would they both not get capital punishment if they both had equal involvement? Exactly. Because Damian looked a little weirder and went on stand and to them they took his books as we're ex that's the thing that's why you make sentence to death if we're going with Jesse's confession they both today me exactly as evil right we're going off that confession which is what they were going on that's why it makes sense that

they knew that confession was bullshit right they just want to day me and dead uh-huh that's what they wanted which is fucked up one saddest thing, and I tried to find a clip of this, but I cannot find the clip for the wife of me if I can. I'll like post it. When the judge asks during the sentencing, do either of you have any legal reason to show the court or give the court as to why the sentence should not be imposed?

Jason quietly says because I'm innocent. Oh. And then he says, so the judge says pardon. And he says says because I'm innocent. Oh, and then he says, so the judge says pardon, and he says, because I'm innocent, right. And the judge replies, well, the jury has heard the evidence and concluded otherwise. And then just like in douchebag. Now, that's so sad because he must have felt. Yeah, I can't even imagine that feeling. Yeah, I can't even fathom that. Now, what didn't get brought into this at all, and you may remember from the first part,

was originally, remember when the boys went missing, there was a bow jangles restaurant, and a random, like, bleeding black man came in, and he was all frazzled and he left blood everywhere. Well, the police did get scrapings of that blood. Right. They never tested it. Right. And it never got brought into this trial. It never got asked about.

And what happened was they were asked, they asked Brian Ridge what happened with those, like, were they sent to the crime lab to be analyzed? And Brian Ridge said they were never sent. And he says, why weren't they, why would they never sent? And he goes, or he says they were never sent and he goes, that's correct.

And he goes, where are the blood samples at this time? And Brian Ridge says, I don't know, sir, they're lost. You lost blood samples. And they say they're lost. And he says, and he says, he's a fucking blood sample. So they had

Blood that they had scraped off that wall from a bleeding man from the same night who was also covered in mud same time that these boys would have died and They lost it Interesting and they lost it because they knew anything else would have put a shadow of a doubt on these three guys and It was they needed to nail them down now Earlier I'd said that Dr. Vincent D'Ameio Who did not agree with Dr. Frank Parede about the serrated knife causing those injuries?

He later said those injuries that were those injuries. He later said those injuries that were attributed to the Surrey to Knife were probably caused by animals. Oh wow. And he said the boys were found in water and they'd spent like something like 18 hours in water. Oh wow. And he said that part of the woods was actually referred to as turtle city by a lot of residents. Oh, I love turtles. They were everywhere. And in the third paradise lost documentary, a turtle breeder actually lets a snapping turtle like bite down on his arm.

Oh Jesus. And the marks are the exact same as found in the bodies. Yeah. And the claw marks also matched turtle claws. And it makes sense because they're not deep. They're like just. Right. And also animals will go after like a dead body,

animals, no matter where they are, will go, an animal will go after the fluscious parts or hanging parts. And that's like cheeks like Steve Branch. Oh, so you think animals that face was demolished? I think it was just that happened to be the side that was the animal exposed to possibly eternal or something else.

And then there's also the genitals of Christopher Biers that could have been, and they do believe in fact six forensic and pathology experts and with Dr. Vincent de Mayo all believe that animals were the cause of that castration. Because they never found his actual. No, right. So it wasn't like that. And it was really like jagged. And like, it also just everybody's like,

why the fuck did one of these kids get frustrated? Right, right. That's weird. And then why did one of them get like hacked on one side of his face? It's like, so all these forensic experts agreed that they were animals that did this.

It made the most sense. Which puts it, it makes the most sense too because it was like, all this like torture and shit. I mean, obviously this kids went through hell anyway. Like I'm not trying to diminish that in any way. But these random things were like just not adding up. You're like, why? Right.

Right. Was randomly like, was he, you know, on his cheek and he was castrated and like, what just doesn't line up? Where did this happen? And all that blood that they're missing at the crime scene might have been in the water. Right.

It could have washed away. It could have washed away. So it could have been it. And this is where we are going to stop for part two because I or part three excuse me because in part four we're gonna go through the like what they went through in prison. We're gonna go through what like the support they got and the people came out against them. We're going to talk about John Mark Buyers, Terry Hobbs. We're going to talk about some of the parents of the victims, flipped. It decided that these three boys are not guilty, which is crazy and awesome. And then we're going to talk about the Alfred Pley, all of the different evidence that came forward after this. So we got a whole

another episode on this and then we will be finally closing the door on this case. Is it weird that I want to be kind of bummed when this is so hard? I know, I kind of am too because I feel like I'm like, but then again, I'm like my whole like brain has been enveloped in this case for like weeks now. Yeah. So that's true. I could use a detour. Yeah. But I'm excited. I'm excited to go into part four. So hopefully you enjoyed this and we're more excited by this at the same time. enjoyable and more defiable. Yep. Probably not a word, but it's not, but I like it. You're welcome. So if you want to hear more about Instagram, go to ours at morbid podcast. We're bringing work anymore. My new wand to find us on Twitter. We're at a morbid podcast.

If you'd like to send us a gmail, morbidpodcast at gmail.com. Join the Facebook group morbid colon at your crime podcast. We hope that you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. Nope. Nope. Really don't keep it weird! Nope. Nope. Really don't keep it weird in Arkansas in 1993. Don't, don't do it.

Don't be doing that. Don't do it. Bye. Bye bye. ʃələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlələlə Thank you. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.

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