Morbid - Episode 132: The Mysterious Murder of Karina Holmer

Episode Date: April 16, 2020

During the Summer Solstice of 1996,  Karina Holmer, a 20 year old nanny from Sweden was found brutally slain, severed in half at the waist in a dumpster in Boston. Was it her host family from the wealthy town of Dover, Ma? Was it the mysterious man with the dog? Was it a strange rocker who lived nearby? This unsolved case haunts Boston to this day. Tonight, we don't figure it out but we sure try. Sources: https://truecrimedaily.com/2015/08/07/the-brutal-unsolved-murder-of-karina-holmer/ https://www.southcoasttoday.com/article/19960628/News/306289960 https://www.wgbh.org/news/local-news/2019/06/24/remembering-karina-holmer-by-name-not-just-by-the-crime-that-killed-her https://apps.bostonglobe.com/true-crime/half-a-body/ Thanks to our sponsors for this episode: Hunt A Killer Right now, just for our listeners you can go to HuntAKiller.com/MORBID and use promo code MORBID at check out for 20% off your first box. Care/Of For 50% off your first Care/of order, go to TakeCareOf.com and enter code morbid50 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's ANGI, or download the app today. Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash, and I'm Alena. And this isn't Alena more bid, but it's a of our morbids. It's everybody's morbid equally. This is a case that is kind of like near and dear to my soul. Near and dear to your soul, okay. It is. Because the box that you were born.

It did happen the year I was born. So it's actually near and dear to my heart and I'll tell you why when we get to that part. Love that. Okay, because this was the first one, this is one of the first cases that I remember, like vividly remember being fascinated by. Yeah, I get that. I remember it's vividly remember, being fascinated by. Yeah, I get that.

I remember it's because it was embossed in too, so it horrified me. Listening to this case like afterwards, I always thought it was an interesting case. And then when you brought it up, I was like, I don't know that case, and then the more you told me about it, I was like, oh wait, I do know that case.

Wait a second. How in case you're wondering what case we're talking about? It is the case of the Swedish and Annie Karina Holmer. Dundundund. Dundundund. It's a very intense case. It's crazy. It's tragic. It's unsolved. I know. I'm fortunate. It isn't unsolved, but you just got to do it. You don't. But you know what? Or guess tomorrow also hates an unsolved. That was a good teaser. See, we were trying to come up with a way to tease our guests because we're not going to tell you who it is.

No, we have a very exciting guest for tomorrow. And what we're going to do today is we're going to go through the Korean Home or case. We're going to give you all the deets, all the new deets. We're going to stop short of talking about the suspects and the theories because again this is unsolved and we're gonna save that for tomorrow to discuss with our special guests. With our honored guest. With our honored guests. You bring your family disalna. Any more long reference. Thank you and good night. First before we get into this case we do have to talk about our live shows because we're supposed to so don't get mad at me June 2nd we're gonna be at the good night's comedy club in Raleigh, North Carolina

I'm betting we won't be there June 2nd, but you know what? I'm hoping we will wait to be negative But you're probably right. I'm just being realistic. COVID is scary So we're just we'll listen as comes, we're going with it. Yep, June 3rd, the next day probably won't be there, but let's say it for Schitzengetgles, the comedy zone in Charlotte, North Carolina. Charlotte, either way, Raleigh and Charlotte, we're gonna see you at some point.

So, where? Exactly. Then, Atalia Hall in Chicago will be there on October 11th for two shows. Oh, we will so be there on October 11th for two shows. Be there or be square. It's gonna be spooky and delicious. Then July 8th, we're gonna be at the comedy work south

in Greenwood Village, Colorado. I hope we end up there. I feel like July will be boiling. I feel like July feels good to me. It does. It feels safer. It feels warm. it feels less infectious. I just, it has a good feeling about it. July 8th, the Wilba Theida in Boston.

The Wilba, come on. Let's make it happy. It was finally booked to the mother fucking Wilbur, and then now we can't go. She's going to be upset. She's already got a missor birthday. And by she, I mean me. I'll be displeased.

And guys, make sure buy tickets to the Wilbur show because regardless of whether it happens at that time or later, your ticket will transfer. So get tickets to the show so you can be there. Yes. And then, uh, fucking why can't I look at the number eight and just say August without thinking. I wish I had that ability. August 11th, we will be in Philadelphia at the punch eight and just say August without thinking. I wish I had that ability. August 11th, we will be in Philadelphia at the Punchline Comedy Club. And we're going to ring the Liberty Bell. Inside of the Punchline Comedy Club. Yes. September 16th, we will be at Washington DC. We will be at Washington DC. We will be at the Washington DC. At the DC improv. I should have said in the DC improv, in the DC. Yes, and you know, monuments. She loves, she loves a good monument.

We're so excited for monuments. Somebody asked her in one of our Instagram lives, what monument Alina was excited to see and she was like, all of them. All of them. All of them. Especially the Lincoln Memorial. Yeah. It's big.

It's big. To back that up, I just want to see it. I said it's big, but all monuments are pretty fucking big. What an idiot. Most of them are big. What a fucking idiot. I feel like the Lincoln Memorial is like very, it's got an intensity to it. It does.

Because Lincoln did, you know? Because Lincoln, you know? Well, it's September 20th, there will be a Nashville Tennessee for an early and a late show at Zaini's. Oh, my goodness, Nashville. We are coming for you. And is that where we get the white buffalo sauce?

That is where we get the white buffalo sauce. Excuse me, is it buffalo sauce or barbecue sauce? Or white barbecue sauce. That's what it is, sorry. Excuse me. Okay, and also I'm going to have to eat some chicken and waffles while I'm there because Huntie, a bitch loves chicken and waffles. We gotta do it. No, I'm gonna serve that at my wedding, not that I'm engaged.

And then September 24th, Huntsville, Alabama, Stand Up Live. And those are our live shows that commences my spiel. Yay! So make sure you're getting tickets to all those shows because they will be moved around if they need to be for COVID-19 stupidity But you know you can come so get tickets. It is what it is. You know, I want to see you at the end of the year But we want to see you either way. It's gonna happen. You know, it is. It's gonna happen. It's inevitable guys So let's do this Let's go to okay, well without further ado, let's talk about your case.

Yeah, because this is gonna be, this might be a long one, but since I'm gonna stop short of the suspects, it might not be like as crazy long. Should I go sit on one more pillow because I'm only sitting on one right now? I think you'll be good. So, Karina Holmer was a 19-year-old woman from Sweden in 1996. Correct. She was known as a great kid. She was a very free spirit, a very motivated person. She had a love for animals and she also had a case of wanderlust. Did you hear that noise? Yeah, I don't know if you can hear that. It's my neighbor, I was just about to say something mean, but I don't know if my neighbor's listening to this podcast, they probably don't, but I don't want to get one. Well now you just said you were

going to say something mean about them anyway. So my neighbor got a motorcycle and it's neat. How sweet. motorcycle and it's neat. How sweet. Yay! So yeah, so dream of Homer. Love animals, she had a massive case of wanderlust. She wanted to travel the world, she wanted to see what she could see. I mean neighbors and family said she was very tenacious. She was the kind of kid who you just knew was gonna hustle really hard to get where she wanted to go. We love to see it. She had, she was dreamin' big dreams. You gotta. You gotta.

So she was actually part of Sweden's kind of their equivalent to like the boy or girl scouts. But their version over in Sweden is co-ed unlike the United States which because it still segregates our scouts. Boys are just as good as girls. It's true. She excelled whenever she put a mind towards something especially in the scouts. Her father said she could literally,

he said she could have the world in the palm of her hand if she wanted it. That's really sweet. I hope my dad says that about me if I ever die before him. Oh God. That was morbid. It was. I was very, you know? Keep it on brand, you know? Oh, God. That was morbid. It was.

She's keeping on brand, you know? Yeah, you're just riding that way. She was always described as an excellent student. She loved artistic endeavors as well. It's kind of rare to have both sides of the brain like that, but she had it. Oh, is it so rare, Alina? It's rare.

You have that too. And I'm rare. Okay. I'm just kidding, I'm totally kidding. But yeah, she was one of those just rare gems that was, she was smart, she was spunky, she was, she could get down and dirty in the scouts, she was tenacious, she had dreams, she could do, she was literally just, she seems like she was just this well-rounded human being that you were just like wanted hangout with. So now let's just appoint the shit out of us, huh? Yeah, now we're really gonna take it down. So she won $1,500 on a lottery ticket in Sweden. I don't exactly know how it works. It's like, I'm not sure like what

kind of lottery that is or anything like that. If it's like a scratch ticket, a lottery ticket, I don't know exactly. Everything you look up kind of is kind of vague about it. Okay. And with this case, because it's unsolved, there's a lot of questions about it. There's a lot of information, but it's like the same information over and over again. We can do a lot of digging and find some little bits and pieces, but some pieces just have yet to come together. Okay. So she won $1,500 on this lottery ticket.

She was like, this is it, this is my time. She was done with school and she was considering going to college, but she was like, you know what, before I do that, I want to see the world as much as I can, and then I'll settle down into my studies. Hell yeah. So she used that money to travel to the United States. This was in March of 1996. So Ash was not even in the world yet. You know I always am like, I didn't even burn yet. So I decided not to stay at this time but you got me. You were close to being born three months away. Yeah. March in 1996, she settles into Boston.

She wanted to go there for its night life and its opportunities to work as an op-air. Okay. So it's common for those looking to become an op-air, to go through an agency and secure themselves the proper documents to come over and to work. Right, you know, these agencies will get them a visa, they'll train them for the job, they'll also look into the potential employers background.

This ensures safety and quality on both sides of the job because they're also going to look into the the potential opair's background. They're really going to make sure that everything's on the up and up. Karina didn't go through an agency for this. Oh, she didn't. Which is odd. Yeah. So she came to the United States with no visa and a fake ID.

Okay. She used an illegal agency that skips a lot of the important steps of obtaining a job here. And this agency was run by Tage Sundin. And he was a Swedish guy who ran an unlicensed agency that he was fined for several times in Sweden. He just never decided to make it legit. He was like, you know, I think it's fine. I think he was just running like a, it was like a scam. Like he was just shooting these, these girls through this agency just to get them over there and then he's like, well, I got their money.

Yeah, he ended up shutting, actually shutting the agency down after Karina's murder, which nice that it took a murder. You know, bad press and all. Yeah, like real cool. He claimed that he had sent six other Swedish hot pairs to work for the family that she ended up working for, but that's just what he says. That's never been confirmed.

And the family has never said anything like that? Well, no, and we're gonna get to them because there was also, this family also has a few other hot pairs that knew the family, especially the father, and don't have great things to say about his tendency to be a little too touchy-feely. You know, you know, just say. So through this illegal agency, she was placed with photographer Frank Frank rap and his artist slash painter wife Susan Nictor.

What did you owe? Right? I know they're fancy. So she was going to be there, a pair. They were very wealthy. They lived in Dover in a huge room. Oh, yeah. Exactly.

They had two children that she was going to care for. And Dover in case nobody knows is wealthy as fuck. Dover is Out here big pimping. It is in 2015. It was the fourth richest town in the country in the United States and in 2019 it was number two in Massachusetts. That's the wealthiest. You know, I don't even think I've ever been to Dover. It's absurd It'll it'll just take you down. My kind doesn't belong. So she worked in their home during the week.

She did the cooking, cleaning, caring for kids, just things, and all pair of does. Right. She was apparently great at it, according to Frank and Susan. They don't really talk about her that much anymore. So it's very rare to get any kind of info out of them. Yeah. But they did say that their children loved her. Okay. It seems great with the kids, which is really all that matters in an opera. Well, it's just kind of say.

On the weekends, they gave her run of Frank's photography studio on A Street in South Boston. So it was a studio apartment that Frank had in South Boston. He had this studio apartment as his photography studio and he was allowing Karina to live there on the weekends kind of for free. Just to get like a break. Yeah, which like, okay, I'm gonna withhold what I have to say for now, and I think we'll discuss it tomorrow. Can I just ask a question? Do you feel as though he might have been there on the weekends? Yeah, I just feel like that's,

it's kind of a weird arrangement, but again, I'm not gonna, I mean, I wasn't there. I don't know, maybe. Wasn't necessarily a weekend off. Maybe he handed her the keys and she got to live there and that was that, Or, you know, we don't know. Okay. But basically that was her place to stay and to like use as her, like, everybody would meet there on the weekends before going out to the clubs. Love it.

She was a pretty big party around the weekends, which I mean, she's, you know, 20 years old at this point. I was gonna say, I can't say shit about this. My party phase just ended. Yeah, and this has nothing to do with like she was a party air. You know what I mean? Like, no, it's just she liked to go out to the club. So that's what. And honestly, it was like, there was a big group of like Swedish hot pairs, like European hot pairs that hung out together. They all knew each other. They, because they would cling to each other for support.

You know what I mean? Like, you're in a totally different country. And they would all meet up and go out to the clubs. Like, this was just a different thing. They're in a different country. You're gonna experience the nightlife in Boston's a big city. So, she loved going to the bars in the clubs in Boston. And she held a job during the week.

Like, she was allowed to let loose on the weekends. She held a job during the week. Like she was, she was allowed to let loose on the weekends. She did her shit during the week. At some point during this whole, so at some point during the only four months that she was in the States before she was murdered. She was only here for four months. During these four months, she did briefly date a Boston police officer. Oh, I didn't, I don't think I've heard that before. Yeah, there's not a lot known about him. He was cleared very quickly without any muster fuss of anything. Weird.

Who knows? So, in the time that she was here, she, like I said, had become acquainted with other nannies and opairs who were working over from Sweden. They all stuck together, they all supported each other. So these were the people that were with her the night that she disappeared. Okay.

She wrote to her friends and family all the time while she was living here. And she updated them on her work and her experiences hanging out saying she had friends and all this good stuff. In the beginning it was casual, like pretty optimistic her letters to her friends and all this good stuff. In the beginning, it was casual, like pretty optimistic. Her letters to her friends and family over in Sweden. But soon it started turning into like complaints a little bit.

Okay. Mostly that she was just stressed. She didn't like the amount of cleaning involved in the job. She specifically stated, she was like, I did not know I was gonna have to clean this much. I'm sure it was a fucking massive house. So I'm sure that was like, and she's not a maid, she's not a pair. No, she's not a pair.

So I'm sure she's like, I'm doing a lot of cleaning. She's like, didn't know that. That wasn't listed in the job description. She was basically saying she was ready at this point. Like only four months in, she was kind of ready to move on already and was looking for something more than what she had in Boston right now. Okay. So then in May, she had written to her friend on Rika Spenson.

And this is what she wrote. Something terrible has happened. I'll reveal more when I get home. Yikes. She basically told her friend, I'm elaborate on it when I get back to Sweden, but she never got back to Sweden to tell her what it was. Oh, that's a really fucking haunting. I knew that Sweden, but she never got back to Sweden to tell her what it was.

Oh, that's really fucking haunting. I knew that already, but like, yeah. It's just hanging in the air. Like, something terrible happened, tell you later. And now we'll never know. And that's it. No one's ever gonna know except for her. Whoever was involved in this terrible thing. So her parents and some friends said they hadn't heard anything about this terrible thing happening. Okay. Okay. Okay.

So like she never said anything to us. Well, maybe she was like embarrassed and never planned on telling them what was. And who knows what it was. So it's like, but she didn't, she did tell them that she intended to cut her trip to the state short and come back earlier. Okay. And she had originally planned. So it seems to me something happened. Yeah.

They all assumed she was just tired of the op air gig and we're like, oh, she just wants to come back and do something else. Uh-huh. It sounds like it's adding up to something bad happened and she was like, I want to get the fuck out of here. Yeah. So later, Frank and Susan, her employers really only release statements through lawyers, like they don't speak about her. Their lawyer Martin Weinberg said of like of he said of these letters quote, I don't know whether the letters represent her overall feelings but if those were her feelings, she was able to not have them interfere with the relationship with Frank and Susan's children,

which is the cornerstone of any op-air relationship. So that's saying something good about her? Yeah, it's saying like if you know if that is how she's feeling that something terrible happened, she wanted to come home, she didn't want to do this anymore. It wasn't affecting how she was taking care of the kids, which is good. So that's good on her. Right. Because especially at 20 to like put your game face on. To have that like emotional maturity to be able to just be like, I got gotta do my job. Yeah. And she must have really loved the kids too. I'm sure like, all pairs tend

to become very close to the kids because they're with them so much. Right. So June 21st was the evening that she disappeared and was not seen again until she was found murdered. June 21st. June 21st. She was out at Zanzibar's celebrating because it was during the summer solstice. Now to us, we're like, cool, some results is fun. Right. It's a huge holiday celebration in Sweden. Oh, okay.

I was like, is that a big deal here? Yes, because I wasn't aware. Because you know here we're just like, cool a long day. Right. Because it's the longest day of the year. So in Sweden, it's a huge celebration of that. That's fun. It's often referred to as midsummer.

They dance around May Poles, they put greenery on buildings and such. There's a tradition also that says if a girl picks seven different flowers in silence on midsummer night and puts them under her pillow, she will dream of her future husband. That's gonna look cool. And a bitch is here to say that a bitch would do it. I know you would. Mm-hmm. I think it's just fun and whimsy. I love it. It is. I love a good whimsy.

Exactly. You gotta love some whimsy in your life. And Karina was out with her friends, her opair friends from Sweden. They're all celebrating this summer solstice. It's like a big deal. It's a time to celebrate. So this was a Friday night. The bars in Boston are always hopping on a Friday night, especially a night in summer. We all know this. In 1988, Boston Magazine described Zanzibars, which is not open anymore. It's on Boyleston Street across from Boston Commons and Boston Magazine described it as, quote,

this new dance club is a banana republic fantasy complete with palm fronds, wicker settees, and waitresses in khaki hot pants. The music is numbingly dumb disco for white people who can't keep time. In other words, goofy suburban fun. Okay, khaki hot pants. Sounds fucking awesome. Those two words even go together. Cachery and hot. You know where they come together?

At Sansa Bar. Do you know what it is now? What is it? I don't know what it is now. I feel like I was actually asking. I feel like I heard that it was club cafe, but I could be wrong. That's a gay bar and it is lots of fun. Oh, maybe. Maybe actually. I'll have to look that up and tell you for sure on this episode.

So Karina was loving Zanzibars. They had gone a few times before this one. That's kind of like the people who went there said that like they knew the Swedish nanny group. Yeah. Like they came there a lot. Because they're probably gorgeous and have accents and they're all beautiful. Yeah.

It's like so. They all wear their khaki hot pants together. No way. This night she was wearing a dark t-shirt with a sparkly silver sweater on top and tight shiny silver pants. And that's why this story resonates to me because of it, she loves some fancy pants. And that's why to these, what we'll see is we have a lot of eyewitness testimony,

a lot of people saying I saw her in this place, I saw her in that place. That's why these, I think that's why these witnesses are taken a little more seriously because as we know, eyewitness testimony can be unruly. Shite. So actual shite. I witness testimony can be unruly. Shite. So actual shite. Yeah, it can be real like unclear.

So, but I think the fact that she was wearing such like a bright shiny outfit with shiny silver pants, I think, helps a little bit. Because you remember that. So shiny. Go on. Good to know that if I ever went missing on the night of our show, I would easily be identified.

Yeah, you would. They'd be like, her pants. You hear that, murderers? She stood out. So she went there with three friends. I found a couple of things to say like she went with three friends, she went with a bigger group. Most of the things I saw said three.

Okay. She got, she wasted. I mean, like, it's Friday night. It's Friday night. It's your fucking, you have the next day off, let's get it, sis. Yeah. Blackout. And you know what?

And again, I'm not pointing this out to like shame her in any way or it just happens. Or put any kind of connotation that like what happened is in any way her fault or something like that. I just want to put that out there. Right. I'm just saying she was definitely intoxicated by multiple accounts. She was like real, she went down in the, yeah.

So a bartender said he was actually serving her water by the end without her knowledge because she was just too drunk and he was like, I'm just gonna keep giving you water. We have all been there. Or cranberry juice. And another bartender suggested, oh, that's so much sugar.

But if you just hand somebody cranberry juice, they think that it's a drink. Oh, that would fuck the mouth. It's a tactic of mine. Sugar will make it worse. So then another bartender actually suggested to that bartender. They were like, you need to stop serving her right now.

Yeah. And that bartender was like, yeah, she's getting water. Don't worry about it. But that's how bad it got that the bartenders were like, yo, you need to secure that. Right, yeah, she's getting water. Don't worry about it. But like that's how bad it got that the bartenders were like, yo, you need to care that. Right, right, right. At some point, she passed out in the ladies room.

Oh no. And another point an employee said they were told to find a ride for a girl who was passed out on one of the high bar tables. And when he took a second to finish something and came back, she was gone. He said this was Karina. He has sent her.

So she was passing out everywhere. She was in rough shape. But you know what? She left her friends. I mean, that's what I'm saying. I don't know. You don't leave your drunk friends past or anywhere. No, don't.

You don't. You don't leave your drunk friends, man. She left the club or was escorted out. There was two different stories that I think they were getting ready to escort her out and she left on her own. Okay. It was somewhere around 3 a.m. So there was differing reports. Well, was everything close at this point? Yeah, everything's pretty much closed at this point. Again, this was this was 96. Right. One report says a male, a male friend of hers who she went to the club with saw her in a gray Mitsubishi outside the club

and that he was like, what the fuck? And he saw two men in the car with her and he was like, hey, like, no, no, no. No, no, no. He did an interview and he was like, hey, you come with us, like, you come back with us. Right. And that one of the guys in the car said, quote,

get away from the car, you little shit, or I'll crush your fucking head. That's a lot. It seems like a disproportionate response. Sure does sure does. Like go off, I guess. I think, my friends in there. So I'll crush your head. But yeah, not not a good thing. So other reports from bouncers say she tried to get back in at least once and then she realized her friends were not outside yet but they wouldn't let her back in because they won't do that. They're not going to let you back in especially when you're really intoxicated.

Which I have a problem with. They should at least go back in and get your fucking friend for you. But that yeah, I think they should go in and get your friend for you. I understand. When you're not being let back in. Yeah, I was gonna say, because letting back in is a huge liability. I 100% get that, but you should not be outside by yourself as a male or a female at 3am.

No, I mean, that's a fault on everybody in that situation. 100% certainly not the bouncers fault or responsibility to take care of your ass, but you know, it would be nice if they would go and get your friend if you're out there. I mean, if I was a bouncer, I would. Yeah. I mean, sure. You're just a nice person, though. Thank you. Other reports, or excuse me, in an article about the case, one a pair said

foreign a pairs knew each other and they went out together, but they said they would arrive in a pack together, but once they got there, it was like every man or woman for themselves. So yeah, and that was it. Right. So they had like an understanding. They're going to find somebody to leave with or to hang out with, or to get drunk with, and that's it. Like they're not really focused on what the other ones are doing. That's at least what one article said. Okay. So she decided again in a highly intoxicated state to wander around trying to get home.

Okay. This is when witnesses come into play. And again, it's all got to be taken with a little grain of salt because eyewitness testimony is is real tough as you know. Right. Some witnesses saw her dancing. Now, this is something that a lot of them say, so I do take this one as probably

I know exactly what you're gonna say. Some witnesses say they saw her dancing with a homeless man in an alley. She was. So she and she was like dancing, singing, they were having a great time. Like she was having her own little party in the alley. Have you ever walked home drunk through the streets of Boston? Yes. You'll end up singing with a homeless man

Yeah, I mean sure there's one specific homeless man that sings a song about your outfit these days. I love that. I love him so much They also saw her walking down Tremont Street and some people said they saw her getting into a gray car with as many as four guys in it, like that original report about the gray Mitsubishi that her male friend said he saw her in. So it is interesting that a gray car gets brought into this a few times because it is always interesting when there's one common thread that keeps Even if it changes slightly that it's in there. Right Witnesses said they heard them that the ones that saw the men in the car Said that they saw these guys trying to get her to come to an after party with them. Okay But again, they also saw her on Tremont Street, they saw her dance

with a homeless man, like she was everywhere. Right. It should be noted that at this time of night, when the bars are closing and everyone is pouring onto the streets, it's fucking mayhem. Oh, it's hell. It's hell. Driving through there when the bars let out is a fucking nightmare. That everyone from Boston has endured at one point or another. There's drunk people slamming on cars, they're walking in front of cars, they're trying to get taxis and ubers, they're fighting, it's insane. It's my favorite. That used to be my favorite. Oh, it's sure, it's your favorite when you're part of it. Yeah. When you're trying to drive through it.

I've never been on that. Nobody will tell you that's their favorite. If you're trying to drive through that mayhem, it is horrific. So bars close around 2 a.m. though. So around 3 a.m. it wouldn't have been quite as chaotic. It would have probably just been like less over and over drunk people. Right. She was alive at 3 a.m. Witnesses saw her and she was speaking to at 3 a.m. Witnesses said they saw her speaking to a man named Urb Witten. He was known around as the guy who wore a super van shirt and had the same shirt for

his dog. And that night he was wearing the super van shirt. His dog was also there. His dog is a large large white pyrenees They wore matching shirts because he said he thought it would help him pick up ladies Okay, I mean interesting approach. It's a good conversation starter I don't know if I'm gonna go home with you because of it, but the weird thing is too that he lived He lived in Andover.

So he lived over half an hour north of Boston. Right. So he would say he would come down when the bars were closing with his dog so he could start like trying to pick up drunk girls. And it's like, okay, so wait. At 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. you're driving over 30 minutes with your dog to walk down the street and try to pick up ladies.

You know what, I'm here to say it, I'm here to state it for the record. That's a little skeevy. It is, it's a little... And by a little, I mean a lot. Yeah, and again, he's gonna become a suspect later. So we're gonna talk to him about him tomorrow, but in further detail, but like just... We'll set that scene for you. Okay, okay. about him tomorrow, but in further detail, but we'll set that scene for you. Okay. So, witnesses said she left an alley with a big construction worker type in his forties

with wavy hair and a small dog. That was another thing they saw. Okay. So, people are seeing her with two separate people with dogs. It's like this gets weird. And the dog that the Superman guy had, that was a big dog, right? That was a large dog apparently, so you can't get the two swapped okay So witnesses also told police that Karina was seen in front of a store 24 At Massive in Havelin Street between 3.30 and 4 a.m. on Saturday June 22nd Okay, so now we're up to to between 3.30 and 4. Well, now she's like traveling like pretty quick.

Exactly. That'd be a lot to walk. Now, after her 3.30 to 4 am sighting on Saturday, June 22nd, she's missing. Right. No one has anywhere about so far. It was 30 hours from when she was last seen to when she was found on Sunday morning.

Oh, man. Frank and Susan, the couple she was working for, had no idea initially that she was last seen to when she was found on Sunday morning. Oh, man. Frank and Susan, the couple she was working for, had no idea initially that she was missing because it was the weekend. She wasn't due to report to their home for work until Monday. And they aren't keeping tabs on her on the weekends supposedly, so like, why would they care? Right.

June 23rd, which was Sunday. In the morning, a homeless man was digging in a dumpster behind 1091 Boyleston Street. He was, you know, looking for cans and bottles and like scraps, anything he was looking for. He went to pull out a big black trash bag and noticed it was super heavy. And he was about to toss it away, but then he was like, what the fuck is in here? Because he said it weighed over 40 pounds. And he was like, this is a huge thing. What is this? Right. Of course, he's curious. He's like, what the fuck is this?

Maybe it's a treasure. Which, and so he opens the bag and immediately sees a human arm. I can't even imagine how terrifying that must be. This human arm had nail polish on the fingernails. It was a clear human arm. He went hauling ass down Boylston Street for help like screaming. Eventually got the police on the scene and detective Tommy O'Leary was first on the case. Okay. It is not a Boston crime tale unless there's a detective named Tommy O'Leary. Tommy O'Leary is a hometown hero.

That's the most Boston. Wicked. Wicked. Wicked. It's wicked Boston. What they discovered when they opened that bag was a true fucking nightmare. They found a body. Well half a body. Well, half a body.

Ah! Specifically, they found the top half of a woman's body. It had been completely washed and cleaned of makeup, blood, everything. And it had been cleaned down. That is. It had been the most terrifying thing. I can't fathom. Mm-hmm.

And there was no blood, like there was no blood around, so this was clearly like a second crime scene, like they had brought her here, they hadn't killed her there. The thought of somebody like taking off of somebody's makeup and like cleaning them after we're, it freaks me the fuck out. That is such another level of pathology with this killer. And it's also, I don't know, it just feels a little personal.

It does feel very personal. I mean, it does make sense that you don't want your DNA so I could see how it's not personal, but it also feels very personal. Yeah, it really does. And so specifically, it had been sod just above the hip bone below the ribs. What the medical examiner would later confirm was likely an electric power tool. No handsaw.

Yeah. They thought it was probably a circular saw. Oh my god. The cut was neat and clean except for one piece of the hip bone that was nicked. Okay. But other than that, it was a very clean cut. A couple of the sources I read said that she may have been alive up to 24 hours after last scene at the 3-4am hour,

which would put her death at what could be as late as 3am Sunday. Oh, there's a long period of time where she could have been alive. Right, right. There was evidence on her neck that she had been strangled Oh, there's a long period of time where she could have been alive. Right, right. There was evidence on her neck that she had been strangled. And that seemed like that was the cause of death. When the news reported the body, Frank and Susan called the police to say the body might be their opairs.

Now, there was a description of Karina on the news, but no photo, obviously, because she was unidentified at that point in just a torso. So why did Frank and Susan just all of a sudden be like, that must be Karina? Like, oh a blonde girl in a dumpster? That is weird. Maybe she normally did communicate with them over the weekend and then because she didn't, they thought it was a little bit weird. Yeah, I mean they never came out and said that. Yeah. But it's a possibility. There's other reports that Frank called the morgan Sunday when the reports were released to check to see if it was Karina. And either way, it's strange to me. Or maybe he had gone

over there on the weekend, like maybe he normally did and she wasn't there. And that's why they called. There's a whole mess of weirdness here. Ash is always thinking. Well, and so because of their connection to her, and that they were essentially acting as family and employer to her, they were of course the first to be questioned. Immediately, they became uncooperative and got a lawyer. Oh, okay.

Immediately. Well, now the lawyer thing to me, that's just smart because like, she can get shady fast. Yeah. So I can't fault them for wanting to get a lawyer, but being uncooperative is pretty bad in this case. Yeah.

You brought this girl from Sweden into your home, trusted her to raise your children, let her stay in your downtown loft for free. Like when she's chopped in half and left in a dumpster, you should maybe cooperate with the police. Why do you think they're being uncooperative? I don't know. I honestly don't know.

I don't think it's a good idea either way. I mean, if they're guilty, that's a really bad idea. Yeah. And if they're innocent, it's a really bad idea. It's like, just if you're guilty, at least fake it. Do you think that they were perhaps uncooperative because not because they're guilty of murdering her, but because they, or at least one of them,

is guilty of the something terrible that happened and they didn't want that to be leaked out? That's definitely, I think something terrible happened could possibly have to do with, my gut is telling me something to do with Frank, but I obviously have no basis for that except for my own speculation. Right. It could also be that they hired her through legal means.

So maybe they're trying to keep their head above water there. Yeah. I was going to ask that. I don't really know. But then what's weird is on Monday, the day after her body's discovery, suddenly there's a strange fire in Dover, in a dumpster, right behind Franken's Susan's house. That is a little weird. Yeah, so the authorities are called, and after putting it out, they tried to determine if there's like any kind of evidence that could lead to Karina, because at this point, they're already like, excuse me. Nothing in the dumpster led to her,

but there's nothing that says how burned everything was or if they could tell with 100% certainty that there was nothing that belonged to Karina. And they didn't find remains, like human remains. Right, because that's just predictable. Yeah, but they didn't find, it's not like you could tell if maybe her belongings were Torched right something was So again, we're gonna go further into like our thoughts on that in the next episode

But they then talked to the last person that she was seen with which was the homeless man who she was seeing dancing and singing with Okay, this was after she got kicked out of the bar His name was Juan Polo, and he was probably interviewed, I'm assuming, as like a formality. Yeah, because he clearly didn't have the means or location to perform a bisection. Cleveland. Right.

Right. Clean the blood and body and then dispose of it in two different locations, it seems like. They probably just wanna see like if she went off with somebody after dancing with him. Yeah. Or blah, blah, blah. And obviously, she's one of the just want to see like if she went off with somebody after dancing with him or blah blah blah. And they and obviously she's one of the last people to see her.

They have to go talk to him. They got to get that information. But I'm assuming they weren't really looking at him as the guy who did it. He later in interviews said that he tried to tell her to find her friends and not be alone that night. And he said quote, she was so sweet, such a nice person, an angel. Oh, that makes my heart hurt. Doesn't that just like, oh, because it sounds like she was.

She was like dancing with him having a good time. So what's weird to me too with this next suspect? So the next suspect, I'm sure, sure everybody's wondering what happened to the guy with the Superman. Superman, yeah, Superman. What's that? What happened to herb? Um, so he was actually stopped that night by the police all the way home. Right. Right. He got a speeding ticket. He was on his way home to Andover. Why you speed in at 3 a.m. Boy. Yeah. And it's, and it's pretty strange again to drive to Boston,

like, over a half hour away, just without construction, which is never the case, there's always construction in a way to Boston. All the ways. Just to walk your dog at 3 a.m. to pick up girls. Like, that's a little weird. It's bizarre. Either way, he got a speeding ticket,

which is pointed to as his alibi. Which cannot necessarily be an alibi. Because what if she's in the trunk? And how many times have we heard that happen? Exactly. And it's like, so you're not going to search the car for a speeding ticket. And I don't think I didn't see anything about them searching his car. I never read anything about him searching his car.

Right. And honestly, what reason would they have? Yeah. And if she was alive up to 24 hours after she was last seen, she was alive at this point. Right. And honestly, what reason would they have? Yeah. And if she was alive up to 24 hours after she was last seen, she was alive at this point. Right. She could have been a very easy because they look at it is, okay, he got a speeding ticket at this time. So there's no way that he could have killed her and done this before he left.

And it's like, okay, well, the dude comes into Boston at 3 a.m. every fucking weekend, just to pick up chicks with his dog. So what is it? Why is it weird to assume that he would bring her home, do what he has to do, and then drive back to dump her? Right. He does it all the time. Why?

This is not a strange trip for him. It's, I mean, this way she could have been gagged in the trunk. She could have been incapacitated, not able to scream. They would have never known she was there. And she could have been passed out in the trunk, she could have been incapacitated, not able to scream, they would have never known she was there. And she could have been passed out in the trunk, who knows, because she was so ine-pre-reated, she could have passed out. Exactly, that's the thing.

So it's like, you're totally right, because she's already passed out twice. It's like, there's a lot of things that could have been happening here. So this man, Urb, actually, this is where it gets very weird. He was cleared after this alibi all that about six months, between six months and less than a year later, he completed suicide.

Right. On WebSloot someone claiming to have lived next door to him at the time, they had a lot of information about it. They said he saw the Emmy and police show up to the suicide scene. And when he asked the officer like what was going on because it was his neighbor, the officer said it wasn't likely a suicide because it was very violent, the scene. But then there was no mention to this anywhere news reports later. That's why I'm like a coverup perhaps because everything I read said that he slit his own throat. Okay, but it's like that's not going on. I'm going to climb to it like cleanup, I would think. It's very odd. It just

sounds all of this is very strange. And so they have so what were so I I know I said I wasn't gonna go into the suspects, but I think we're just not going to like discuss the theories in depth really. But I want to like put them out there so you can all like kind of munch on them. Think about them for a minute. So this is when they start kind of grasping it straws a bit because leads are not panning out. They're looking at, I mean, so far the employers are acting strange.

They're uncooperative. But they're not much of a lawyer. But they don't have anything on them. And it's like, so what can they do? We're looking at Herb. Well, now he completed suicide. And also, they've cleared him already after his speeding ticket alibi, apparently.

So this one confuses me. So they started looking at a suspect who lived close by to where Carina was found. This new suspect was a guy by the name of John. I don't know how to say his name. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zoiz. Zo but that's not metal and that's what he was going for. For real? He was a member of a band called Sleep Chamber. Sleep Chamber by my research is labeled as an industrial techno tribal band. Aren't we all? Doesn't this remind me? This immediately reminded me of the Parks and Rec episode where Leslie goes to that radio station.

And the guy is like now for the lesbian Afro Norwegian studio Nefertiti's Fjord. That's exactly what that's like. I forgot about that episode. That's litter. I immediately thought of it. That's exactly that is that's it. Nefertiti's Fjord. But it's real so that's fun. Like this a real bit. You say what they describe themselves as again They describe themselves or they are described as techno what industrial techno tribal. Okay. I like it I'm here for it in the themes of their music as well as John's personal image in persona I have centered around things like SNM and bondage He loved dabbling in magic and learning about the occult. He was just like, by all means, kind of like a strange dude

by any, by no or me's accounts, you know. Okay, so. That's a vibe. This band even had fetish stage dancers that they would bring on tour called the Barbituits. That's what they called the dancers. The Barbituits. I just got, I fell into like a whole reading

about this guy. I was like, what the fuck? I feel like who wouldn't? It's amazing. Honestly, nothing is really like bad here so far. It's just like strange. Yeah. Normal society.

For a norm. For a norm. But in normal society, SNM and bondage are consensual when done correctly. And magic and the occult are not signs of a murder. You know, like this is just, I think his proximity to the dump site, he had a known heroin addiction for years. He had a couple of run-ins with the law, nothing like violent, it seems, from what I looked.

And his taste for the strange and unusual definitely marked him as a person of interest. But you kind of feel bad because he kind of just got sucked into it. And he was obviously struggling. Yeah, he was struggling. They never actually charged him or labeled him as like an actual suspect. It was just that they brought him in for questioning. And then he kind of got labeled. He kind of, the stigma happened. That sucks. And people even pointed to a lyric in a song he released after Karina's murder and had a line about hanging at Zanda bars, but like it was Boston in the 90s and he lived near Zanda.

Who's gonna say he lived right there? So it's like, of course, he was cleared, he was never arrested for it or anything, but people obviously still talk about if he could be part of it. Because he's made like strange interviews and stuff where I think he's just like a strange guy. So he just talks about weird shit and people are like, hmm, I mean, whatever. You know, so going back to the fact that she did briefly date a Boston cop and that it seems like there's just no leads or no evidence of anything. They can't find anything. They can't find the crime scene. They can't find her bottom half. They can't find her bottom half.

They can't, they had no DNA, nothing. Boston PD in the 90s was corrupt as fuck. You don't say. Yeah, it was just not it. By their own, like these are their own quotes about their, their, their shit department in the 90s. One quote says,

The hallmark values of the operating culture are self-interest, resentment, and suspicion. Love that. We have no defined mission. Everything goes into a black hole. Can't be. The only standards around here are double standards. Awesome. Perfect. They were very much into the, we cover here are double standards. Awesome. Perfect. They were very much into the, we cover each other's back, very much into, I want that suspect to be the guy. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna make it so, with the evidence kind of thing,

like it was very not, not a good, a good situation. It doesn't tell me. So when they come out and say that, she dated a Boston police officer briefly, we're not, you know, that's fine. He was cleared. Everything was fine. And it's like, yeah, like I'm not saying he did it,

but like, why is he clear to no more about that? Yeah, like, can you tell me a little more about it? Cause I don't know about that. And so basically now, after all of these people are getting questioned, everything's happening, that's it. There's nothing. There's nothing after that. It went cold. And that's it. And now that all there is are there's just theories about what could have possibly even happening. Was was the terrible thing a and I'm just going to sneak this in here and we'll definitely get further into it tomorrow. But was this terrible thing that happened, you know, a sexual

assault of some sort? Right, right. Was she possibly pregnant or did she think she was pregnant? And that's why she was sought in half to remove any evidence of a pregnancy. Yep. You can remove a uterus by sawing someone in half. And it's like they were washed clean. She was washed clean and she, you know, that was removing any kind of DNA. It's there's a lot of different theories of what could have possibly been happening here.

And like I said, a lot of, a lot of op-hairs that worked for Frank Rap or knew of him, basically all of them said he's very creepy. Okay, he acts very creepy to us. Like that was the general consensus. We don't love them. We hate them.

Yeah, definitely not. And so eventually Karina was sent home to Sweden. Her body was sent home. So her family could have a proper burial. And at her funeral, everyone wore brightly colored happy clothing. All because they were like, that's just who she was. She would have wanted that. They didn't want to mourn her loss with dark, sad colors because they said like she was. She was. She was. She was. Stop. Yeah. And a really sad like kick in the gut. Great, is Detective Tommy Alleri,

who worked this case, said to the Boston herald about this, that when he talked to her father and said, you know, we're shipping her back to you, her father said, what am I getting back? Oh, God. And he said he was like, absolutely, he was like, fuck, I didn't know, I was gonna have to answer this.

Right. And he said, quote, you're getting her upper torso, you're getting her beautiful face. Oh, my heart. It's like, oh, yeah, that's a lot. I know. And from what I can tell, this wasn't someone that's like, to me, it doesn't seem like some unhinged. It seems, it seems, it seems, it seems methodical to you.

It seems very calculated. It seems personal to me. It seems personal to me. Who is, I don't want to say in control, but like in control. It sounds like somebody who they strangled her. Yeah. They didn't mutilate her in the sense of like they cut her in half, but I think that was that was for a purpose. That was to hide something. Why else would you

need to do that? And strangulation not to keep being like personal personal, but strangulation is a very personal way of murdering somebody. It certainly is. I mean, of course, strangles will do it too, but like in general, it's a very personal thing to do to someone and it doesn't mutilate their face. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't draw blood generally. And it just seems to me like this is someone you if they would really took a power tool to saw her in half and they did it in a very clean way where the only bone they were going to have to cut through the spine. And you know, you would think that to pay for it. Yeah, or you've done it before. An unhinged person is going to saw someone in half with a fucking hand saw. It's going to be jagged.

It's going to be fucked to this. It's going to be blood everywhere. That person's going to be mangled and they're just going to toss them in a dumpster. Or reminds me of the Black Dollya case. It does, it's kinda like the Black Dollya, where it's like, but then it differs from the Black Dollya and I think our guest tomorrow will be able to go into this little further.

But it differs from the Black Dollya because the Black Dollya was like posed, out in the open, when everything was being sent. Yeah, yeah. But she was putting a trash bag and putting a dumpster in an alleyway in Boylston to hopefully not get rid of. Right.

So it's a weird dichotomy, but it also kind of rings very familiar to each other. Right, right. You know, it's weird. But to me, the pathology of this person is that they are in control. Yes. That they are unhinged in some way.

And they're like they're in control of the process. I think you're right. Which, you know, which to me, I don't know. I don't know enough about herb. I don't know enough about, you know, there's just not a lot to, there just not a lot to go on here. Right. That's the thing.

What's another weird thing is that Susan Nickter, the wife, Frank's wife, she's a painter, like I said before, and her site is now, her painter, her artist site is now down right now. It's been down since like 2018 or something. But there was a lot of talk about the paintings that she would paint, because she has a ton of paintings. And apparently there are a few

that certainly look like Karina. And a few of them have a lot of themes that make it look like half of a body. And somebody, you know, running away from a man. Yeah, that's a lot. Just very creepy themes that seem to be like, a lot of people look at it and they're like, I'm disturbed by that and it kind of looks like you're painting what happened. Right.

To me, and again, we'll talk about it tomorrow, but like, to me, I'm like, I can go either way with that. Well, because art can be like an escape for some people and like a therapeutic tool. So I think you could argue that side of it. Exactly. Because she knew this person. I mean, this girl lived at her house for four months.

I mean, yeah. And who knows what her relationship with her children and with her was. So it's like, she could be in her mind. And she could subconsciously be painting a woman that resembles her because it's like she could be in her mind and she could subconsciously be painting a woman that resembles her because it's just a trauma that she's dealing with still. Yeah. Or it could be her way of getting out the trauma of what actually happened that she knows what happened. It's like in a lot of people thing that could be it. You can't see her paintings

anymore which bummed me out because- Oh, it sucks. Yeah, but I mean, I'll look and see if anybody has them somewhere. Somewhere like, yeah. But so that's basically what we have on Koreana right now for the general overview of the case. Okay. Because again, that's all the details I could find. Anything else was kind of hearsay

and I don't want to be putting out like bullshit rumors. No, we don't. So what we're gonna do is we'll end here and tomorrow with our guest we're gonna go into back over the suspects. We're gonna hear what they have to say. We're gonna talk about the theories and all that good stuff and to it. I'm excited. Me too. And in the meantime, why don't you guys go ahead and follow us on Instagram. At Morbid Podcasts. Follow us on Twitter. At A Morbid Podcasts.

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That's not that fucking weird. That's real weird. That's for sure. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Hey, Prime members. You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and

Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill? Or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my podcast Killer Psychie Daily, which you can find exclusively on Amazon Music. I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday

on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds you read about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and a criminal profiler. On Killer Psychie Daily, I'll give you my expert perspective on cases like the mysterious New York City drugings, Breaking Down Lori Vallow, a.k.a. Mommy Doom stays motives, and what drove Caitlin Armstrong to murder? I'll also bring on expert guests who add even more insight into these criminal minds. I promise you won't regret adding these 10 minutes to your morning routine. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast Killer Psychie Daily in the Amazon Music app.

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