Morbid - Episode 137: John Wayne Gacy Part 2: The Murders

Episode Date: May 4, 2020

Tonight we continue our deep dive into the damp, smelly and super greasy world of John Wayne Gacy. Tonight's episode focuses on the abductions, the assaults and the murders that took place over a 6 year period in the mid to late 70s. This pig took the lives of 33 young, teenage boys and he did it in some of the most disturbing ways imaginable. Fair warning, there are some descriptions and mentioning of sexual assault and rape. Books mentioned/used in this episode: John Wayne Gacy: Defending a Monster by Sam Amirante The Man Who Killed Boys: The John Wayne Gacy Story by Clifford L. Linedecker Buried Dreams: Inside the Mind of John Wayne Gacy by Tim Cahill Killer Clown by Terry Sullivan This episode sponsored by: Purple Mattress Experience the next evolution of sleep. Go to Purple.com/morbid, and use promo code morbid. For a limited time you’ll get $150 off any Purple mattress order of $1500 or more! Terms apply. Athena Club Stop using razors that underdeliver and switch to Athena Club! Sign up today and you’ll get 15% off your first order! Just go to AthenaClub.com and use promo code morbid.  See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, Prime members, you can listen to morbid, early, and ad-free on Amazon music. Download the app today. You're listening to a morbid network podcast. Whether you're running errands on your daily commute, or even at home, you can enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app, the Audible app. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog. This includes the latest bestsellers and new releases. Plus get full access to a growing selection of included audiobooks, audible originals,

and more. If you've been wanting to form good habits, break bad ones, and improve motivation, atomic habits written and narrated by James Clear is a great lesson. It'll reshape your mindset on progress and success by helping you develop strategies to transform your habits. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash wondery pod or text wondery pod to 500-500 to try audible for free for 30 days.

That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y-P-O-D. Audible.com slash wondery pod or text wondery pod to 500-500 to try audible for free for 30 days. Angie has made it easier than ever to connect with skilled professionals to get all your home projects done well. Whether it's routine maintenance and emergency repair or a dream project, Angie lets you browse home on her reviews, compare quotes from multiple local pros, and even book a service instantly. So the next time you have a home project, just Angie that and start getting the most out

of your home. Download the free Angie mobile app today or visit Angie.com. That's ANGI.com. Hey weirdos, I'm Alena. I'm Ash and this is a full-ass morbid. It's not too of the John Wayne Gacy series. Yeah, we are still hanging out with this big ugly bastard. Rose. And I thought we were gonna be able to do it in two, but it's definitely going to be a three-patter. Everybody. Whoop did it? Whoop. We love a three-patter around to

you. John Wayne Gacy. I mean, he killed 33 people, so it's a lot. It's a lot to talk about, and I don't want to just like gloss over certain things, so you know, one of the big parts of his case is how he got caught, the surveillance that the police did, his interviews after he got caught. So, I want that to be its own episode, and I didn't want to just be like fluff over it. No, that definitely should be its own episode. I totally agree with that. Yeah. So, today is going to be a whole-ass discussion about all of his murders. Hey, yo. It's gonna be a real rough episode,

but we're gonna get through it together. We'll do our best. We will. We'll do our damn best. But first, we have a couple of business orders to take care of. So as always, I will start by reading the shows off. So June 2nd at the Good Night's comedy club in Raleigh, North Carolina. Which I think might be happening. Either way, it's going to happen at some point. So Raleigh. And I got the pants for it. She got pants. June 3rd at the Comedy Zone in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Come to Charlotte. We're coming for you. October 11th, two shows at Talia Holland, Chicago. If you're confused about what show time is for you, just ask your ticket person who you got tickets from. Your ticket person, you know that person. The ticket people, you know them. And it's spooky season and it's spooky theater and we have a really fun case for you. Y'all.

July 8th at the Comedy Work South in Greenwood Village, Colorado. Colorado, I think we will definitely see you in July. July 11th at the Wilba Theatre in Boston. Come on, Wilba Theatre, and make sure you're buying tickets to that show, guys, because regardless of when it happens, it's gonna happen. Yes, the patronus eye that are able to use the Discord chat room have, or chat thing, have started a Boston chat group, and it's amazing.

Yay! Love that. And all the other there's a chat groups for all these tours and it's really exciting. So fun! Join the Patreon! Exactly. August 11th at the Punchline Comedy Club in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Philadelphia! I'm really excited to see you! September 16th at the DC improv in Washington, DC. All the monuments. September 23rd, Nashville, Tennessee, at Zaini's. Zaini's, we've heard good things about ya. Hey yo, and then last but not least September 24th, Huntsville, Alabama, go roll tide, go war eagles, still don't remember that thing the person said, but I'm gonna look into it at standup life. All of those things, it's gonna be exciting. It's really bothering me, because I read it and I was like, oh that's a really good idea. And then I was like, shit, I lost it.

I think I read the same one and I also forgot. So same thing. We'll find it. We'll find it. There's many sources of contact for every thing there is. We'll figure it out, guys. We we'll find it. We'll find it. We'll find it. And we'll find it. There's many sources of contact for every there is. We'll figure it out guys. We're working on it. Other than that, I think we are going to shout out some patronuses. So for patronuses, we have Alexis Nopelo. Nopelo. Alexis Nopelo. Hello. Yes. Hello. Alice Parker. Alice Parker. We love you. Alice with a Y. Love that. We love that, fancy. And then we have C. Brendler. C. Brendler, thank you for being a patroness.

Candace Arnet. Candace Arnet. You bet. You'll know like that. Two Erica's, we have an Ericaica dursed and an erica goo-dren, I'm gonna say. Erica dursed and erica goo-dren, you make ericas sound good. You do. We have Madison F. Lewis. Madison F. Lewis, thank you so much.

Corinne Hannah. Corinne Hannah, two first names, I dig it. We love it. Lizzy Keenan. Lizzy Keenan. You have a famous murderous name. Hey, oh, I said, hey, oh, probably 45 times the seventh episode. Last but not least, our patron 99 shadows. Thank

you 99 shadows. Thank you. And we've realized, well, I've realized that you probably have to the best way to request no shadow because I am seeing some people that don't want to shadow. If you could put that in your name somehow on Patreon, that would be a lot easier and there will be no accidental shadows if you don't want one. Yeah, because sometimes it's hard to keep track of all the various no-quests and all that. So if you just put it right there, we'll see it and we won't have to worry about it. Yeah, because I don't want to just respect No question. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No. So I think we can just jump right into the case now. But before we begin, I did get, we got an email that I just

wanted to read part of really quick, because it kind of gives a little more insight into one part of last week's episode that we were both a little confused on. I don't know if I saw this email. Maybe not, I don't know. But this is from Lindsay. And Lindsay is a, she works for her sheriff's office

as the sex and violent offender registrar. And her husband is a probation and parole officer for like 17 years now. What a fucking duo. Right. So she was saying that last week we were questioning, you know, he kept getting these assault charges and he was on probation.

Why was he not getting, why was this not getting back to his probation officer? Yeah. And she was like, let me clear that up for you because she was like, it absolutely should go back to the probation officer, but it doesn't a lot of times. Oh, wow. And she was explaining why. So I just thought it was good to kind of read some of times. Oh, wow. And she was explaining why.

So I just thought it was good to kind of read some of the interesting. So people could see. She said in the John Wayne, Gacy, part one episode, you guys were discussing the sexual assault charge that Gacy picked up right after being released from prison. And you both seem surprised by the fact that this information didn't make it back

to his probation officer. The fact of the matter is that sometimes it simply isn't reported to them. If it didn't happen in the same area or jurisdiction that probation and parole officer is supervising, that would present a problem. It would be difficult to know that Kasey picked up a new charge if he didn't sit in jail long and the law enforcement entity or DA's office who is bringing the charges, didn't inform the probation or parole officer. It would be wonderful if there was some kind of universal system that would report all that

directly to them, but the reality is, we just aren't there yet. The probation officers have to spend a ton of time looking up things on their own, and they're responsible for so many probationers at a time. It's an enormous amount of information to keep up with, and therefore they depend on those other agencies to report to them if they have contact with any of their probationers. And Ash is right. It is most certainly a violation. It is a violation of the rules of probation for the state to pick up a new charge. However, it is just a rule violation, not a law violation. So let's say that it's reported to his probation officer that he had picked up a new charge. The probation officer then writes a violation report, sends it to the DA,

who convicted Gacy of the original crime, that sent him to prison, informing the DA of the rule violation. It is then up to the DA to issue an arrest warrant for the motion to revoke, prison time that is now on paper. Based on that rule violation, and then they would have a bunch of hearings to decide if they want to revoke his probation and send him back to prison. Damn. Yeah. This end resulting in prison time rarely happens here unfortunately. Our prisons are overcrowded and the judges and district attorneys are under a lot of pressure for send people back to prison unless it's a last resort. So she yeah, so she was just kind of telling us like, this is the reality of the situation, which I appreciated. So I like message her back and was like, thank you so that I like hearing from people who

have like first-hand experience with this stuff to be like, here's how it works. Let me tell you. So Lindsay, thank you and your husband for doing awesome stuff and thank you for letting me know that such a cool email That was it was cool to hear how that works. Yeah, cuz it just kind of cleared it up because I remember both of us were like Why the hell wouldn't that get back to his program? Right. Yeah, like I was even questioning. I'm like I saw this in several sources, but like is it real? Is it like ours? It's just like bullshit that I'm doing. It's like yo, let me tell you. Yeah, it makes sense so when we last left off It's just like bullshit that I'm, it's like, yo, let me tell you. Yeah, it makes sense.

So when we last left off, he had already killed, he had already done his first kill. And this is in 1972 when another serial killer who we will cover in a future episode, he's a doozy named Dean Coral was discovered. Gacy was actually inspired by him to use his rack board that he made. Gross. Because Dean Coral loved a wooden plank. Oh, that's... I just...

So I know. I just broke. So when we talked about it last time, we were saying how, you know, John Wayne Gacy loved, he was a great neighbor. People liked him. He was very jovial. Very, you know, John Wayne Gacy loved, he was a great neighbor. People liked him, he was very jovial, very, you know, very talkative, people thought he was funny. He seemingly was a family man,

but on the, on the inside, he was not at all, but he gave a good facade to everybody around him. When he was like super involved in politics and had like a ton of people in a circle too. Yeah, and he loved to do, you you know those block parties that we talked about like he would throw theme parties like the country western theme and all that. So I found this quick quote of his that kind of explains the parties that he used to through throw that he used to through. I was gonna correct you and then I was like, I'm gonna let it slide. It's been a long day. I

work today, so I'm like, He said quote, they were huge parties that politicians and everyone would come to. We would have hundreds of people sometimes like 400 people, 400 people and I had myself made family. I called it self-made family. I had two beautiful little daughters Tammy and April. They were Carol's kids You know, but I loved them too. They were like my kids too in 1974 we had a Luau party a party with a Luau theme grass skirts and shit like that Hawaiian, you know people dressed up Hawaiian People dressed up Hawaiian Wow, John Wayne gay thing the way he talks is just like you know fucking, a fucking Lua, Lua theme, you know, Lua theme.

Dressed up his wine. People dressing up as fucking wines. They're Hawaiian, everything was Hawaiian. Like, he just keeps repeating shit and you're like, are you okay, sir? He's like, Lays, flowers. Every interview I hear. By Steven, you're like, you are a lot.

Like, he like resets things. Yeah, and he's just like a goof. So you can understand how if you didn't know what a fucking evil pig monster he was that you would just be like this goofy bastard. Right. Just be like, all right. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast American scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our newest series, we look at the Kids for Cash Scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice.

In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers, and often for committing only minor offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines. The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would shatter the lives of countless children and force a heated debate about punishment, an America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen ad-free on the Amazon music or Wonder App. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candice D'Long and on my podcast Killer Psychie Daily, which you can find exclusively on Amazon music. I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds you read about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and a criminal profiler. On Killer Psychie Daily, I'll give you my expert perspective on cases like the mysterious

New York City drugings, Breaking Down Lori Valow, a.k.a. Mommy Doom stays motives, and what drove Caitlin Armstrong to murder? I'll also bring on expert guests who add even more insight into these criminal minds. I promise you won't regret adding these 10 minutes to your morning routine. Hey, Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music exclusive podcast Killer Psychie Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. killers and killers in general always have like two sides it seems yeah and I think with John Wayne Gacy it seems like people definitely liked him they thought he was good neighbor they kind of had this view of him but then when he got caught I think a lot of them were kind of like yeah okay really yeah it's like

this weird because they knew he liked younger boys he was well there was a talk of the boys he had already been arrested for assault before. So I think they were just like, yeah, we didn't see it coming, but like we kind of saw it coming. Now that it's happened, you know, like we look, he turned a blind eye. Yeah. The parties were good. We look like, yeah. Yeah. And like his, so his home was at 8213 West Somerdale Avenue and neighbors of that home did say later. They were like, yeah, we'd see him come in at like all hours a night and leave it all hours a night and like sometimes he had teen boys with him, but like he had them work with him a lot so we didn't know.

And then they'd say, yeah, in the middle of the night we would sometimes hear like screaming and crying over there, but like, you know, nothing crazy. Like people were just kind of like, you know, nothing crazy, just some screaming and crying. Yeah, like that's not normal. So last time we talked about that kid Donald, who he was arrested for sexually assaulting. Donald's father was in the JC's with John Wayne, Gacy. So Edward Lynch was the 16 year old that also went to the police with Donald and said he had also been sexually assaulted by Gacy.

He knew Gacy because he worked with him in one of the KFC restaurants. Okay, one night he said Gacy did the classic Gacy move of inviting him over asking him if you wanted to watch some porn because Obviously, what a casual fucking invite so casual so casual. It's all about my porn party You want to have a drink and watch some porn, bro, and it's like Is this normal? He says it like it's watching like a football game. Yeah, I'm like, I maybe I'm just like a sheltered person I don't know that it's never had a friend of mine to like

So do you want to have like a glass of wine and like sit down and watch some porn? Well, like it's never been a thing. I'm glad it's never been a thing though. Yeah, I mean I'm complaining strange to me So during this his wife Was in the hospital after giving birth to their second child by the way. Oh, awesome. Yeah. That was like his first wife. Gacy played a game where they play pool. And if the kid won, he would give him a blowjob. Oh, yeah, you know, just normal fun. Kigs strips pool. Yeah. The kid won. So Edward won, but he said, no, thanks, creep. Like, I don't want that. Yeah, like we can just play regular. Well him refusing this

Reward for winning pissed Gacy off So he ended up grabbing a knife and cornered this kid in his bedroom They wrestled and Gacy cut the kids arm and when he saw the blood He suddenly started a profusely apologizing and bandaged his arm up for him started profusely apologizing and bandaged his arm up for him. Oh, that's weird. Yeah.

So they went back down to the basement and the kid was like, I want to leave. Like I'm done. I'm good. And he tried to calm him down with some porn, you know, okay. And afterwards he brought out a chain and padlock. And he then chained to the kid's arms behind his back and asked him, can you get out of them? Like it's a trick. I use it as a clown.

And he was like, nope, can't do it. So he pushed him into a chair, straddled him, and started trying to belust him. So this kid kicks Gacy to the floor. Good. And so Gacy got angry, brought out a cot, and shoved the kid down on it. He chained his feet and then choked him.

Lynch pretended to black out because he was like, I didn't know what else to do. And Gacy got concerned and kept asking if he was alright, suddenly. And then he just drove him home. Oh my God, that's horrific. Yeah. Like he is so imbalanced. It's unreal. One that just the back and forth of doing something so evil and then seeing the blood and being like,

oh, let me help you. And then like starting it all again and then being like, oh, let me help you again. That's the thing. It's like, it's very strange. She's such an evil monster. Like when you see how like predatory he is and then he goes out and looks for younger boys

to like do this too. Like he picks the right street And then like he gets in these weird situations where all of a sudden he's feeling like Like fatherly or something. I don't even know So when he was arrested the couple of times that he was at one point he was evaluated for his mental state by by Dr. Eugene F. Goren and state by Dr. Eugene F. Goren and Dr. Goren said, quote, the most striking aspect of the test results is the patient's total denial of responsibility for anything that has happened for him. He can produce a quote alibi for everything. He alternately blames the environment

while presenting himself as a victim of circumstance and blames other people while presenting himself as the victim of others who are just out to get him. Although this could be construed as paranoid, I do not regard it that way. Rather, the patient attempts to assure a sympathetic response by depicting himself as being at the mercy of a hostile environment. To his way of thinking, a major objective is to outwit the other fellow and take advantage of him before being taken advantage of himself. He does things without thinking through the consequences and exercises poor judgment. He does not seem to have remorse over the

admitted deeds which are part of his present difficulty. So he's basically like he's remorseless and he doesn't take responsibility for anything. Okay. Which we'll see later probably in part three mostly that he's totally like, no, I didn't do that. And then he'll alternately give you details about each murder and then be like, oh no, I didn't do that. I had help and somebody else did it. Oh, he says that. I don't know. Yeah. He likes to claim that he had, uh, people help him accomplices. Oh, that's interesting. So a 20 year old man named Michael Reed met Gacy while Gacy was what he called cruising in Chicago. Increasing to him was going out and basically what like BTK like to do the hunt kind of thing.

Yeah, right. Like, oh, BTK called it trolling. Trolling? Because he was a fuck control. Because of course Dennis called it trolling. Because he had code names for every day. He is a troll. So he was out cruising in Chicago.

And Gacy offered him work and also offered him to perform oral sex on him. Because why not offer one without the other? He agreed and Reed ended up starting a business with Gacy at one point doing maintenance work around the neighborhood. Oh wow. So they like started off fine. Reed moved into the home that Gacy and his mother bought together and he slept in Gacy's room. Oh! One afternoon, Gacy asked Reed to get a fuse that had fallen under the workbench in the garage. And as he was stooping down to look under there, he all of a sudden got slammed on the back of his

head with something. All of a sudden, he sees blood dripping down his face and he's like, what the fuck? He turns and sees that Gacy's holding a hammer that he has just whacked him in the head with. That happens. They recreated that in the Gacy movie. Oh yeah, I remember that. So Reed grabs Gacy and is like, why the fuck did you just hit me in the head with a hammer? Like, what the hell is going on?

I was trying to help you out, dude. Yeah, like what? And Gacy was basically like, I don't really know, but I suddenly wanted to kill you. He said that to us? Yeah, like he was like, I had a sudden urge to kill you. I don't know. What?

It's like a tick or something. Yeah. But in the next day, Reed moved out, but nothing came of it. Like he didn't go to the police. So it's probably too scared to, because I agree, but like these people do go to the police, but nothing happens.

Exactly. So he and Gacy and Carol, who was a second wife, So it's probably too scared too because I agree but like these people do go to the police but nothing happens exactly So he and Gacy and Carol who was a second wife we talked about in the first in the first part They had a strained relationship like from the start. Yeah, it wasn't blissful at all They wouldn't see without at all hours of the night and she probably heard screaming and crying and oh Yeah, and they and they wouldn't speak for weeks at a time because Gacy was like having orgies and hotels and shit and spending all this time with young boys just like and Carol was constantly she started constantly become suspicious of one what he was doing in that garage that he wouldn't allow her to come out to he would not allow her or the kids in the garage which is bizarre.

It's like his dad with the basement. Exactly. It definitely goes right back to it. And she was really getting suspicious of the horrific smell that was starting to emanate from the crawl space. Ew. There were also bugs that were suddenly

coming into the main parts of the home and coupled with the smell, she was like, what is going on? Like you need to fix this. He spread quick lime to try to stop the smell and eventually Gacy told her he poured some concrete to stop the smell, which he was saying was caused by water runoff from a broken sewer pipe. That doesn't smell that bad.

Yeah, like he was literally like, okay, so it's just, everything's wet down there, so it's just smelling. She's like, it doesn't smell like molds though. Yeah, and it's like, and eventually, it was like basically unlivellable at one point because there were like, gnats and black bugs all over the house. Like, and they were like concentrated in one hallway

in this one bathroom, I guess, which was right over the crawl space. Right, that's so horrific. And the fact that kids were there living through that. Yeah. That's awful. And this is really the beginning of like him picking up boys. And it seems like he was almost like testing his limits.

Right. So he picks up a kid named David Edgecomb. He had worked for Gacy several months before kind of quitting suddenly, like a lot of teenagers do. Yeah, and he quit suddenly to go on a trip with his friends, so he just was like, bye. Late one night, Gacy knocked on his fucking bedroom window at his mom's house. What? In Park Ridge, and asked if he wanted to quote, go party. No, thank you. Like what?

So David took his husky dog with him and he agreed. Because he figured it was kind of a way to smooth over him like bailing on the job so quick, he was like, I didn't want him to be mad at me, so I was just like, you know what, I'll just do this. So Gacy brought him to the Democratic precinct headquarters and offered him cash to drink a half pint of rum. What? David ended up passing out and woke up in Gacy's garage handcuffed.

Uh, that's so terrifying. When he woke up, Gacy was straddling him and choking him while saying, quote, you son of a bitch, you'll never quit on me again. Jesus Christ. Yeah. So David, of course, is like fighting him back, but he's handcuffed, and he's screaming as loud as he can. Well, he had his husky dog with him, who followed them to Gacy's house. So his dog tries to get through the door, and is like flipping out, because he can hear him. So Gacy just stopped and brought him home, like a psycho. I'm so glad nothing happened to the dog.

I thought you were gonna tell me something happened. No, he just stopped and brought both of them home, like nothing happened. And if you imagine that ride home, like does he just like hang out with you and like shoot the shit? Like what? Well, and how much like ego and like just feeling

of like invincibility you have. So just of like invisibility you have. Like the assurance you have. No, he's not going to tell anyone and if he does nothing's going to happen to me. Because it happened to him before. Yeah, it's crazy. He thinks he's invincible. Yeah. So Gacy started, this is when he started having a long string of sexual assaults on young

boys and he started using that handc cuff trick over and over again. He also had the rope trick which was similar. It's like that sounds horrific. He uses rope, he tells you to try to get out of it, you can't get out of it, he tightens it and you're at his mercy. Well, it almost starts like in a sexual way. Oh, it definitely does, because... No, I don't.

And it starts as him saying, you know, I'm a clown You know, I'm a registered clown, right? And then he'll show them the handcuffs And I'm sure he had a pair of like clown handcuffs that probably have like a little button That he could do a handcraft trick and like press the button and they don't believe that's it and he probably gives the kids These other handcuffs and it's like you can't get out of there now Because what he would do was he would give them to them and be like, can you get out of them? And they'd be like, no, how do you do it?

And he'd be like, you want to know the trick? And they'd say, yeah, and he'd go, you need the keys. Well, that's so crazy. And then they'd just be like, what? And he was like, yeah, now you're mine. Like, you can't move. Oh, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. He had all these moments of just being like,

he has these fucked up statements. He says to these kids that I say a couple of them here But you're just like he's a scary motherfucker like sadistic monster like these poor kids The fear that must have flashed through them like dealing with this fucking monster and he's also just like this huge Disgusting that's the other thing that's so scary about him is he's so big and these are teen boys like you're not yeah Usually as big as of like however old John Wayne gacy as man You know what I mean and he's doubt too, so he's short, but he's like Sick. Yeah, like he's a sick. Okay. He's sick

And so that's a lot of power and like squatted power coming at you Well a lot of the times like you're saying now he is sitting on you. Yeah, anytime anybody sits on you, it's hard to... Yeah, it's like dead weight, so it's really scary. It's really stressing me out. He would also use chloroform to incapacitate his victim, so he would just use the chloroform rag over your face. I want to know where these people just find, like readily available for a foreign.

Like, why, they don't readily available. You can always find anything you need. But one of these boys that he was part of this whole string of sexual assaults that ended up living through the experience, unfortunately, still very much victims. One of these boys was 16 year old Tony Antonucci. He was tall, he was athletic, he was also a wrestler. Okay. Now remember that. So he was volunteering

cleaning up the Democratic precinct headquarters and he was kind of working under Gacy. This was in 1975. Gacy made a pass at him while they were cleaning up one night. And he was like, no, no, I'm good. And Gacy would a pass at him while they were cleaning up one night. And he was like, no, no, I'm good. And Gacy would not take no for an answer. So finally, Tony picked up a chair and threatened him with it. It was like, I will fucking beat you with this chair if you don't go, like, get away from me.

And so, of course, Gacy, when he starts doing that, Gacy's like, dude, I'm just joking. Like, why are you being so like, and like, he loved to use the the f word to. Yeah. Yeah. Because John Wayne, Gacy finally admits to himself that he is bisexual. And he will say that out loud. I am bisexual. I do like to have sex with boys. But to him, he will not see that as like, that's not gay. That's not gay at all. And it's like, and to him, it's bad if it's gay.

Like he was raised to believe you are a man. That's not what men do. So like his father drilled that into him. So he's constantly being like, if he gets shut down by a guy, he's like, who fuck you, you f-word, you know what I mean? Like he's like, he starts calling them things. I he's like, who fuck you, you f-word? You know what I mean? Like, he's like, he starts calling them things. I mean, like, what do you think of that?

You know, like, he's such, he's so, like, he hates himself so much. It's very self-loathing. It is, it's very self-loathing. And he just, and that's part of his aggression, I think, is just, he hates himself so much. And he can only, I mean, I'm surprised he even came out to say that he's bisexual. I think that took him he hates himself so much. And he can only, I mean, I'm surprised Z even came out to say

that he's bisexual. I think that took him a long time to do. But he will, he just can't accept what his true desires are. But he's also not only, he's not gay, he's a pedophile. Right. And it's like he can't admit that to himself and get help for anything.

Like those are two very different things, sir. Exactly. It's like you are not just bisexual. You are a pedophile. Like that is not... You don't just like other men. That's fine. You cannot like children, sir.

Right. That's not allowed. Yeah, that's not... No. Uh-uh. No way. So yeah, so you made it. So Gacy's making it seem like he was joking.

I was just joking with you. I again, so upset. Why why you threatening me with a chair So I'm he's like whatever so just went away. Well a month later Gacy just shows up at Tony's parents place while they're out and is like hey Tony and He told you Vacy. He was like hey Tony. I have some wine and some porn. Do you want a party? No, I love that he's like, you want a party. You want a party. Shut the fuck up.

And if you look at a photo of John Wayne Gacy, like his mug shot photo when he just looks like this, like greasy bag of just like leftover fried. Sweaty, that comes from the bottom of a fast food restaurant toilet or something. Like it's just just he's so greasy He is a bacon grease yucky and he's got these BDIs and he's just like and you can just picture him be like what a party and you're like I picture him with like a weirdly high voice. I don't know why he kind of does actually know that I'm thinking about it

He does kind of have like a little yeah, it's not like a like Actually know them thinking about it. He does kind of have like a little yeah, it's not like a like But it's like the voice that you gave David Berkowitz. Yeah, that's what it's like this little like sure Yeah, but it's just so gross but But yeah, so he was like do you want a party with this wine and porn and he was like all right cool So it was like sure why not like let's just have some wine and watch some porn It's like like whatever. And this is when Gacy, so he got in there, so he brought, you know, he brought the kid to his place and he was like, okay, can I show you a trick? No. Of course. And so he said he had a pair of

trick handcuffs that he used as a clown. And then he was like, you know, how can you get out of it? He challenged him to figure it out. And Tony is like an athlete. He's competitive. So he was like, you know, how can you get out of it? He challenged him to figure it out. And Tony is like an athlete. He's competitive. So he was like, fuck you. I'm going to get out of these. So Tony agrees to do this. But Tony's also clever. Because he doesn't snap one of the cuffs all the way.

So he was like, all right, I'll try to get out of this. And he hides this from Gacy. So when Gacy thought he was fully cuffed, he starts aggressively trying to undress him. But Tony's like, oh no no sir. So he suddenly flips Gacy off of him and onto the floor because he like straddled him and so he like pushes him onto the floor, snapped the free cuff on his wrist, and then he used a wrestling move to flip him on his belly

and held a knee to the back of his head. That's incredible. Isn't that incredible? I was like, I love that. And this is why we should all take karate or like some form of self-defense. Right? Because he just was like, fuck you, sir.

I'm just gonna use the wrestling move. So he's holding his knee to the back of his head. And he flipped the other cuff on him. So we had a handcuffed on his belly, in his own fucking house. And he, so Gacy's flipping out, he's screaming, he's yelling, he's like cursing. And Tony's like, no, I'm not letting you free

until you calm the fuck down. Right. And so Gacy was basically like, well shit, you're the first one to get to to like get to best figure this trick And he was like, okay, and he let him free and he just let him go and it was never spoken of a kid Now Gase had told his wife and kids like I said not to go into the garage because it was his workspace He had also openly begun to bring home magazines filled with photos of naked men like porn magazines. He just like left them about just leaving them about

Willie Noley. You know like that's whatever if that's what you're into but like when there's kids around like you let's not do that. And it's like in your wife. I don't know. Your wife. You don't like flunk that right in front of her face. That like, you know, say like if you and your wife have an agreement that's what you're doing. Yeah, like if you guys have your children don't like flunk that right in front of her face. That like, you know, say like if you and your wife have an agreement, that's what we're gonna be doing. You're in your children, don't. Yeah, like if you guys have discussed it, cool, but it doesn't sound like Carol had been, no, you know, informed of this.

And Carol also found some photos of naked men like Polaroids, one of which appeared to have blood on him. So she freaked out, she confronted Gacy, and she was like, what the fuck is this? He told her he was not going to, he was like, you know what, I think we should just like make this a thing now that we don't have sex with each other anymore. At that point, I'm dipping.

Well, and this was on Mother's Day. That's so sad. But honestly, the best mother's day gift, he could have given her that. That's true. I'd say that's sad if it's like who you're married to, because one part of her most have found her of course.

Of course, that's a great mother's day gift to me. Yeah. Yeah, but they agreed together that they were not going to have sex with each other. And that was that. And she later said, and it like when people talk to her that she was like, he was never around.

Like he just, he was working all the time. And when he wasn't working, he was being really secretive, and he only slept for like two hours at a time at night. And rarely in bed with her. And he would leave at weird hours, come home at weird hours, and she just didn't question him anymore, because she was like, whatever. He's he's never around. You're not like having fun in the sack anymore. Like your house smells bad.

There's pictures around that you don't want there. Why are you why are you staying? I think it's probably security. She probably do you feel secure? Well, no, not not emotional with security. I mean, financial and everything else security, because you have to remember as shitty as Gacy is, as a human being in every aspect,

dude was bringing in money. And he knew how to make money, and he did financially have stability. And I'm sure that was probably part of, she had two kids, she was just divorced. That is true. She's probably hanging on, because she's like, well, you know, like I gotta do what I gotta do.

Which sucks. That is really sad. Yeah, it really sucks. I would rather work like three jobs than have to deal with any of that. For real. Well, in 1975, Gacy's mother moved out of the home finally and she moved to Arkansas and when she moved there she ended up falling and breaking her hip and Carol went out there to help Gacy sister care for her and well nice of Carol yeah that was nice of Carolyn you know what Gacy did not

repay her nicely while she was gone you know I you know I believe that yeah so at this time once she leaves he had an 18-year-old kid working for him by the name of John Buttgevitch. Okay. And he was always with Gacy, and actually everyone started calling them big John and little John. Okay. So according to Gacy, he was over his house all the time. Like, little John was over there house all the time. He had many dinners with his family. Carol liked him. He, Little John played with the girls a lot,

like he was a good kid. He was like family. So, Gacy says Little John owed him money because he used his PDM contracting. That's, in case you forgot from the first one, that's Gacy's contracting business that he has. Right. He used his PDM account to pay for his apartment. Okay. Gacy said he was fine with this, but he expected

him to pay him back. So he was like, you can use that account. I just need you to pay me the money back. And you know, little John was doing that like slowly. He got his bill down to like 300 bucks according to Gacy and then suddenly July 31st of 1975. He said little John showed up to Gacy's home demanding a paycheck that he said Gacy had not given him because after eight months of working for Gacy, little John had quit. So now he's showing up to his house and he's like, you didn't give me my last paycheck. And he's like, well, you owe me money. So this is what Gacy has to say about this whole scenario. And probably not the truth. Yeah. I can assure you that this was, it's weird because he gives like little variations of the

two. You know there's nuggets of truth in there. Yeah. But you know, it's definitely not the whole truth. And this exchange came from a book called John Wayne Gacy Defending a Monster, and it's actually from his defense attorney wrote this book. Oh, that's interesting. His defense attorney was Sam L. Amorant, and it's an odd book, but it gives, there's a

lot of conversations with Gacy in it that are really interesting. Yeah, I it like gives there's a lot of conversations with Gacy in it that are really interesting. Yeah I feel like that'd be a very interesting read. Yeah and there's a couple of other books I'll just mention now in case people want to know like where I got all my information because I went through let's see four John Wayne Gacy books. The other one that I was looking through is called Killer Clown, like a John Wayne Gacy murders by Terry Sullivan. The other one is called The Man Who Killed Boys, the John Wayne Gacy Junior Story by Clifford

L. Lyndon, I think it is. And then the other one I used was called Barry Dreams Inside the Mind of John Wayne Gacy by Tim Cahill. So those are all good posts. We can post all those too. Yeah, I'll post them in the show notes just so you guys know, but I figured I'd shout them out. Nice.

So what John Wayne Gacy had to say about this little John exchange was quote, but John got it into his head that I owed him a couple of hundred bucks or something. And this was bullshit. I tell you a pure bullshit. But he comes over talking shit, brought a couple of buddies with him, yelling and screaming about how I better pay him or there is gonna be trouble.

Like I'm gonna get my ass kicked. I just got everyone high, we smoked some pot, drank some beers, we come to the whole thing right down. No big deal, you know? Next thing I know, he's lying on my floor. Dead. Oh! Definitely some missing events there, sir. That escalated quite quickly. He's like, we all got high and then he died. Yeah, we all got high. Everything was real chill and then like, there he is, he's just dead on my floor. And you're like, you're missing a large chunk of information. Yeah, I've never had an experience like that. Nobody's ever gotten high and I'll die. No, thank goodness.

So what happened between the time that they got in a fight and he ended up dead on his floor? Well, he said after he got them all high and drunk, he sent them on their way and he went cruising for other young boys to have sex with. He was like, I didn't want anything to do with John. Yeah, he was like, no, I'm just gonna go find some other boys.

So he said he noticed a little John in Uptown and he said little John jumped in front of his car Yelling about how he still had to talk to him. He was still mad about the money So John said he was still pissed and he was like, you know what? Just get in the car a little John and he brought him back to his house where remember Carol's not home She's visiting John's mom and so he had the whole place to himself. So he gives little John a ton more alcohol and gets him plastered. Then he says the argument about the money just started off all over again and they were really heated. So

Gacy got nervous according to him because he has that heart condition and he didn't want to continue getting so upset because he was afraid he would pass out. So he lightened the mood with the good old handcuff trick. Little John couldn't get out of it and Little John got real mad obviously. How do you just go from arguing to being like, hold up. You know what, let me show you a trick. Like you know what, I'm a light in this mood real quick. Let me show you some of my clown tricks. I'd be like no sir. I'd be like I'm still mad. I'm mad. And I'd be like actually I'm now even more

mad because you have just trivially alized my argument. Right. So Gacy told him he wouldn't let him out. He would so he did the handcuffed trick. He couldn't get out and he was like yeah you need the keys fucker. And then he was like you know what I'm not gonna let you out of those handcuffs until you sober up and you stop screaming. So how Gacy told his defense attorney was, quote, now this is where it gets a little foggy. I'm not exactly sure what how this all happened, but I must have strangled him, you know, with this rope. Just of, you know.

And then he said, quote, yeah, he was lying on the floor when I woke up. He was blue in the face, you know, like they say. And he had a rope around his neck and the handcuffs. He still had the handcuffs on. I don't remember everything, but I think I tricked him, you know, because that's what I did with a lot of the others. I would use a rope, the rope trick, and I used it kind of like a tourniquet around their neck.

That's how I would do it. I can't imagine just speaking so callously like that about where he's from. So callous. So callous. He is just like, and for him to just be like, yeah, I guess I must have just fucking murdered him. Left him on my voice. I guess. Well, after killing Little John, he wrapped him in a tarp to deposit him into the crawl space, but Carol arrived home. Oh no. So he was forced to bury him into the crawl space, but Carol arrived home. Oh no.

So he was forced to bury him in the garage, which a couple of them were buried under the garage. And what does John have to say about his lack of, you know, memory when it comes to murdering kids? He said, quote, sometimes I wake up in the morning and find strangled kids in my house, dead strangled kids, and I have no idea how they got there. No fucking idea what happened. Do you believe that?

No. Do I believe that there's times when he blacks out? Yeah that's what I mean. I do believe that but I believe he treats it like yeah I'm not part of this like it just happens. I just wake up and there's dead kids and I don't believe that. I believe that. I don't believe that. Do you believe that he blacked out is what I should I think he blacks out every I don't think his whole I think he you don't block out everything Far less than what he's claiming he's blacking out. It's just convenient to be like up. I don't remember well

And finally now Carol is still smelling the smells she see in the bugs She's seeing his odd ass behavior and even though they're not having sex anymore And they're pretty much like done ski she's like roommates. I need to know what's going on here So Carol said she took a peek in his garage One night when he was head left. She was like I have to look in there. I have to do so terrified Well, she said She was like, you know what? I knew he was having sex with teenage boys. Like, I knew that. I could see that happening because he was bringing them in all the time,

bringing them out. There was a magazine. Like, I could tell that's what, and he had basically admitted to me that he liked to have sex with boys. But she's like, I had to see what was going on in the garage. So she sees mattresses all over the floor. Red lights, all red light bulbs. That's her. Anything that's red lit is

terrifying. Yeah. And there was mirrors on the walls and ceilings. Ew, that's so fucking crazy. It's like a weird porn room. It's like a dungeon. Yeah, like this weird porn dungeon. So and she said she could smell the scent of decay so strongly there because he had just recently

buried someone under there. And so in October 1975, Carol filed a divorce after, yeah, it was after gay sex. So the time she finally was like, yes, I like to have sex with young boys. And she was like, peace. So her divorce was final March 1976. And now this is when he really goes fucking nuts Well because there's nobody home. It's so much easier for him and he's pissed that somebody left him again He's got the house all to himself. Oh, no, he's not even pissed that carol left him didn't bother me

No, no, no, he's psyched. Are you kidding me? He's got his whole he's got a sex house now that he can literally do what? Have the fuck he wants it's like why did you even bother marrying this woman in the first place because he wanted to impress his dad Yeah, for appearance and I think it's because he wanted to keep up appearances. That's all it was right, but now he's like it's on So within a month of his divorce April 6 1976 1976, he killed an 18-year-old named Darryl Samson. There's not a lot of information on this or his abduction, but he was found in the crawlspace. Weeks later, he killed Randall Reffett, a 15-year-old, only 15. That's really sad. Who had disappeared May 14, 1976. His body was later found by police in the crawl space

under the front door of Gacy's house. Oh my God. Yeah. He was found on December 25, 1978. That's really haunting that. It's like every time you open the front door, you're walking over somebody. You're walking over somebody's dead body.

He was identified by X-rays on April 11, 1979, and they were able to determine that his cause of death was asphyxiation. Within hours of killing Randall, hours, not days, hours, he killed a 14-year-old named Samuel Stapleton. So this is, I think, the first time, no, it's not the first. Yeah, this is the first time that he's killed to him one day. Right. So Samuel disappeared while he was walking home from his sister's house on May 14th, 1976. He was immediately reported missing by his parents and he was later discovered in the crawl space. One distinctive clue that the family kind of like hung on to to be like

that's definitely him was that there was a bracelet found on his body and that was his bracelet. And that was confirmed on November 14th 1979 and they had to use X-rays of his head and teeth to identify him. That's always I think I've said it like so many times but that's always the saddest thing. It is, it's so sad. You can't even recognize them by their face. Oh, and some of these people, some of these kids weren't identified until like 2017,

like so long. So in June 1976, 17-year-old Michael Bowman disappeared while waiting to catch a train to visit his stepfather's brother. He never made it to his location, and police would later find the teen's fishing license in Gacy's home. And then later they found his body in the crawl space, which had to be identified by dental records. The ligature that was used to strangle him was still around his neck. Oh my god. The next one was Billy, or William Billy Carroll. He

disappeared shortly after, he disappeared shortly after Michael Bowman on June 13, 1976. Billy had had kind of like a tough life. He was a tough kid. He got in a lot of trouble. He had been in Juve a couple times for things like stealing a purse and like possessing a gun He was only 16 though by 16. He was still living that kind of lifestyle and was actually making extra money by Kind of running like a teenage boy escort escort service Where he would basically put together meetings with older men and teenage boys and get paid for it So he was running with some scary people. And he knew John

Wingacy probably because he was dealing with the shady shit and on June 13th he just disappeared and he was later found in the crawlspace. July 1976 he employed 18-year-old David Kram to help him around the house in the contracting of business David Kram has one of the scariest stories. Oh He survived, but holy hell He actually had this kid move in with him for a time which he did often. He would have these balls move in He moved imagine surviving that experience No, no, no, no, no, no, no That's a whole different fucking kind of thing. It really is He moved to legend surviving that experience and living to tell the tale of living with John Wayne Gacy.

No, that's a whole different fucking kind of thing. It really is. He moved in in August and shortly after he moved in, he came home one day to find John Wayne Gacy, sitting on the couch dressed in complete pogo the clown get up. Nope. Sorry. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, he, he did David, unfortunately, fell for it and was like, sure, because he was like, you're weird. And I'm just going to go with this. And he got locked in the cuffs. And once he was in them, Gacy attacked him, telling him, based in saying this to him,

I want to rape you. Like, I'm going to rape you. David fought him and actually got away to his room and somehow got out of the cuffs. He stayed in the house After this. I'm assuming. I'm assuming. Just not have had anywhere to go I think he had nowhere to go and I think he he's a young kid So he's probably attributing it to like that dude's drunk Right. That was probably just a crazy. So one month later Gacy shows up at his bedroom door and is like So one month later, Gacy shows up at his bedroom door and is like, and basically just says to him

that he wants to rape him and then says, quote, Dave, you really don't know who I am. Maybe it would be good if you just give me what I want. What? And obviously, David was like, no, and resisted him and fought him off. And after fighting him for a minute, Gacy just got up and left the bedroom

and said, you ain't no fun and just walked away. And then David packed all his things and left. Well, so this is when David left and stopped working for PDM. But he did help Gacy out some more for objobs later. Like he did come back. So he must have needed money. I was gonna say some young kid that needs money. That's really sad. Because John Wayne Gacy takes such advantage of like people's

situations. He very carefully picks his victims. Right. It's that old adage that we've talked about a lot of times that he picks less dead people because he's picking young boys, sure, but he's picking a lot of around the ways. A lot of kids who don't have relationships with their families and actually when he gets caught at the end of this it is because he picks a kid who is very close to their family and is not a runaway and that's that was his big fuck up. Yeah that's his big devil. So the next one to go missing and to be murdered is James Hackinson. This was on August 5th, 1976.

James was 16 years old. He was known as Jimmy. He had run away from his home in St. Paul, Minnesota, but he had called his parents on April 5th to let them know he was in Chicago. It was the last they ever heard from him. That's really hard. He was in the crawl space as well and he wasn't identified until July 2017. Wow. And they used DNA evidence to identify him. The next one was August 6th. So

this was a day later. August 6th, 1976. It was Rick Johnston. He was 17 years old. He was last seen going to a rock concert at the Aragon Ballroom in Chicago. After the concert, he was supposed to call his mom for a ride home, but she never got the call. His body was found in the crawl space stacked on top of Hackinson and another and an unidentified victim. The fact that he got to the point of stacking people, like that is horrific. In fact, this is when he starts stacking people

because running out of room. As you'll see, he runs out of room eventually. So, the next ones that they could find were October 25th, 1976. It was Kenneth Parker and Michael Moreno. They were friends. They were, Parker was 16, Moreno was 14. They were hanging out together when they were last seen, and they were reported missing by their parents immediately

when they didn't show back up home. Both of them were strangled and raped by Gacy and buried together. Oh, hey. The next one is the day after that, October 26, 1976, 19-year-old William Bundy. He had occasionally worked for PDM and he went missing one night after telling his family that he was just going to be going out to a party. He was another one that wasn't identified until 2011. And the way he wasn't identified is kind

of what's happening now with like catching serial killers and shit. His siblings provide a DNA and he was able to be told from that. I think it's so cool that we can do that. Yeah. And he like we sat at the beginning like it's so important to do that. Yeah. Because it's you know, like that's how they're catching people now. Yeah, it's true. I mean, I know a lot of people will not agree that they don't want to give their DNA, but like, yeah, it's good. I mean, like, remember in this case, how we started and you said, like, if you did know anybody that way, we feel like provide your DNA. That's what I meant by that.

Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure. And then December 12th, 1976, 17-year-old Gregory Godzick disappeared. He had gone out on a date with his girlfriend. He had dropped her off at her house, and then she said she watched him drive away, like to go home. He had been working for PDM and doing odd jobs for Gacy.

The day after he dropped his date off at her house, he still had not returned home. So his parents were like, where the fuck did he go. Police eventually found his car, which was a 1966 Pontiac. His wallet was found during a search later of Gacy's home, and it was later confirmed that he was one of the bodies in the crawl space. Oh man. So these are the ones that like, you don't know what happened. You just, you just know the. You know, Gacy did it because they're in his crawl space. You're right. And they can tell like a lot of them, I mean, they could tell a lot of them were strangled or is fixated.

A few of them were stabbed, mostly strangled and is fixated. January 1977, 19 year old John Sysik went or no, Sysik, I think it's Sysik. I was like that's Annie's last name. Yeah, no, it's Sysik, S-Z-Y-C. 19-year-old John Sysik, he was actually friends with Gregory Godzick, which is creepy. And he was last seen in his 1971 Plymouth satellite and then he just disappeared. So the story with that one is that, and Gacy was free to tell this one.

He said that Cizic was gonna be selling his car to Gacy, but he was like, yeah, he came over and he was gonna sell his car to me, so we were talking price, and we went over the whole thing, I was looking at it, then I just brought him inside and bought Babadoo,

bought the, I used the rope, the rope trick on him, and there he is. So, you would think that they're like this missing kid's car is in John Wayne Gasey's possession. Like, it makes you wonder why that didn't happen. Oh, don't worry, that did happen. Oh, okay. Cause I was like, what?

Like, how does that work? So, like you were just saying, police are now on the lookout for this car. Cause they're like, okay, well, we got to find that car if we want to because at this point, they don't know that he's dead because all these all these he's later found in the crawl space, speak happens way later. After this point, all these boys are just missing. We're all just disappeared. So police are on the lookout for this car and they suddenly spot it at a gas station. So they they spot it and a teenager named Michael Rossi is driving it and he's trying to leave the gas station without paying for the gas he just pumped. Oh that happened in the movie too.

In the G.C. movie. So when they approached him he was like yeah I work for a guy named John and John can explain this all to you So the police are like what the fuck and they talk to Gacy and he's like, oh, yeah, that's John's car Car and he sold it to me because he wanted to run away and he needed some cash to do so So he's like so I bought his car from him to help him out and as for why Michael Rossi is driving the car He said I gave Michael Rossi the car because he works for me. And I told him that he could work off the debt. Like he could just work for me and eventually it would pay for the car. Right. So Michael Rossi is the new teenage boy

living in the Gacy home. So the police are just like, okay, sounds good. Like the police at this point are like just useless. Like they're like, well, and you have to think, cool, this guy's like very involved in like the politics and his, but it's like, they're like, it's just John Gacy, you know? But it's like, you know what? Let's not a little more. Yeah, I'm shoes, like maybe do some,

100% detective work here. So Michael Rossi, like I said, is living in the house with Gacy. And David Kram, who was the one who walked in to Gacy, fully dressed as Pogo, and tried several times to sexually assault him. David Kram and Michael Rossi were told by Gacy to spread quick lime down in the crawl space as much as they could to stop the smell.

So, Gacy would force them down there, like gagging and make them do it. Meanwhile, one of them is probably like, I know exactly what this is because you're sure. Oh, for sure. To attack me. Yeah, you know that these boys are like, I'm just gonna do this because I don't wanna be down here.

Like, I don't wanna be up here. I'm so sad to have been that close to so many deaths. Oh, it's horrific Well, the next one to go missing was John Prestige and that was March 15th 1977 He was a 20-year-old from Michigan He was visiting friends in Chicago at the time. He was later found in the crawl space. Nobody really knows what the abduction was The next one was Robert Gilroy. That was September 15th, 1977. He was 18 years old and he was actually the son of a sergeant on the Chicago police

department. Oh, so is that is that one? This gets fucked up. No, no shit. It's not you would think that wouldn't you? Yeah, but and they lived four blocks away from Gacy when he disappeared. Wow. Yeah, you would really think that that's what the fuck up would have been and that's how like Beyond reproach he was like he just was able to do this shit The next one was September 25th 1977 John Maori. He was a 19 year old US Marine. Oh, wow. Yeah able to do this shit. The next one was September 25th, 1977, John Mowry. He was a 19 year old US Marine. Oh wow. Yeah. Somehow he crott, he, you know, got involved with Gacy. He ended up doing a little work for him. He disappeared. The next one is Russell Nelson. This was on October 17th,

1977. He was a 22 yearyear-old University of Minnesota architecture student. Oh, wow. He had traveled to Chicago with his friends. He had gone to a dance club, and he went missing that night. He was later founded the crawlspace. The next one is November 10, 1977. Robert Winch, he was only 16 years old. He was found in the crawl space, not a lot

is known about his death. November 18th, and again these are only like days apart. November 18th, 1977, Tommy Bowling, a 20-year-old with one child. Oh, that's so sad. He was found in the crawl space. He was killed with a ligature that was still around his neck. December 9th, 1977, another 19 year old US Marine. Geez. Named David Talsma, he was found in the crawl space as well. So this is 1977, has been a busy year for him. Yeah. He also briefly got engaged to someone.

I never knew that, which I'm like, wow. Exactly. Where do you fit all this into your fucking day-to-day schedule? Like holy shit. That engagement ended really quick because he's John Wayne Gacy. 1978, that year he was also found to be to be syphilitic. which is not shocking considering his leisure activities. Now he starts doing a couple of weird things, and I think the reason that he probably started doing this is because he didn't have any more room to throw bodies in his crawl space. Is this when he starts using the desplanes river? Not yet.

So is that a leak? No, well, we're not there yet. But okay. He slowed down. He starts releasing people. Like he starts doing his thing and then just releasing them. Oh, which now he's very embracing people. Yeah, now it's very brazen, because he's not covering his face. Because he's just not scared. Why are you not afraid, dude? No, and in January of 1978, a 19 year old named Robert Donnelly, contacted police and said,

I have a fucking story to tell you. So he said he was walking after midnight and he said, Gacy had pulled up next to him in a car He had pulled a gun on him and threatened him saying he was a police officer So he told them you're being detained. He didn't tell him why he handcuffed him and threw him in his car He then brought him back to his home and raped him So during this whole thing he's choking the boy into unconsciousness several times and then waking him up

He also held his head underwater in a bathtub thing, he's choking the boy into unconsciousness several times and then waking him up. He also held his head underwater in a bathtub. And at one point, this kid begged Gacy to kill him because he said it was just too much. It's so torturous. And Gacy responded, I'm getting around to it. That was his response to that. That must have been the most night because you you, that's not what we expect. For hours.

When you say that, like, yeah. For hours. And he said, this went on and on, the torture went on and on. And then he just drove the boy to work the next morning. To work? Yep. Just dropped him off at work. And one of the really fucked up things he did while he was

assaulting this kid was that he would hold a gun to his face, the whole time, like he would like, while he was doing terrible things to him, and he would spin the, uh, the, what is it called, the chamber of the gun, and like in Russian roulette, he would like spin it, and then he would pull the trigger a bunch of times, literally play Russian roulette. And eventually a blank cartridge fired. That just so- So it actually gave me like a bodily reaction. So the whole time he had a blank in there

and he's fucking with this kid and eventually shoots and the sound comes and it's a blank. And a lot of times people say when they got shot they like don't even feel it because they're so scared. He probably was like, I like shot shots. I just shot. Yeah. And so this happened.

And again, this boy went to the police and was like, this is what happened. And this is who did it. That just made my heartbeat fast. Yeah. It's no joke. The assistant state's attorney decided that when it came down to court,

Gacy would appear more believable. So they dropped the charges. What? Yep, so they were basically like, yeah, I don't think anyone's gonna believe you, so, sorry. Like, can we just, can we give it a shot at least? No, apparently not. So this one is crazy.

This one is a guy named Jeffrey Rignal. Okay, he was the second, you know, one that was released without being killed, but wow, did he go through some shit. Trigger warning, this one's a tough one. Older one? Yeah. Jeffrey was 26 years old, so he was one of the older ones. He was walking to a bar in Rosemond, Illinois on May 22nd, 1978.

Gacy had rolled up next to him, offered him a ride and a joint. And Jeffrey was like, cool, because it's the 70s when he just got in. And when he got in, Gacy suddenly put a chloroform soaked rag over his face and he passed right out. Oh God. Throughout the ride back to Gacy's home, Gacy would wake up and Gacy would just chlorform him again, so he kept doing it over and over and over. Later, Jeffrey had like severe liver damage from the... I was gonna say that.

Oh, really fucking effective. Yeah. So when he woke up for the final time, he was in Gacy's den of torture. Oh. He was locked in the rack, which was the wooden board, suspended by chains to the ceiling, and it has holes for your head and your hands. He looked up and Gacy was standing there naked in front of him, gross. He gestured to the ground and showed him that he had an array of dildos, ranging from sizes, you know, different sizes, different everything. And he just told him in graphic detail how he was going to use them, and how long he would use them, and where he would use them. Jeffrey was then brutally assaulted, raped, beaten, drugged, tortured. I mean, beyond anything we can consider. Gacy would put items of various items

into various orifices. Oh God. Other than Dildos, he would use like, I read something that said that he used pill bottles. Oh, he would use candle wax, impliers. He was a fucking monster. And he also, so this guy also claimed later that he thought there might have been another person in the room while this was going on. Oh, that's interesting.

And we'll explore that in part three, that idea that he might have had an accomplice. He was in and out of consciousness this whole time, like while everything's going on, because from sheer terror terror pain, I mean, drugs, everything. And when he woke up after hours, he was sitting fully dressed under a statue in Lincoln Park in Chicago. So he just woke up completely in another place. And he woke up and he was very severely injured. I mean, of course. Obviously, he was literally like bleeding from his rectum. Like, he was in a lot of, in like, severe internal damage. So he was taken to North

Western Memorial Hospital and he had to stay there for six days. I believe it. I'm surprised he didn't even have to stay there longer. Yeah. And in the hospital, he told the entire experience to police. He was like, this is, I can tell you everything I can. But they were skeptical of his story, which it's like, you can't do that. Who the fuck would make that up? And it's like, he has the injuries to prove it. Like, what are you doing?

How else do you think that fucking happened? Yeah, and also, I don't care if you're skeptical or not, you still have to investigate it. That's literally what your job is. This is one of those, it's the 70s in Chicago, and it's like police are sitting there going, this is just a bunch of gay shit. I was gonna say that.

It's like the Jeffrey Dombers stuff. I was just gonna say that. They would be like, these are just two gays that are having a bite. A coral and we're not gonna get into it because that's gay stuff and we don't understand it. Like that's literally what they do. Like they're still alive and that they have to say

with the fact that they didn't do we don't understand it. Like that's literally what they live in. And that they have to say with the fact that they didn't do their job. For real. Well, later Jeffrey, like literally, would wait on freeways and overpasses just waiting to spot the vehicle because he knew the vehicle in his head. And he was like, I'm gonna find this vehicle again

and I'm gonna get his license plate. Good for him to have gone through that much trauma and to still be willing to fight. Oh no, no, no Why he he eventually spotted Gacy and he wrote down the license plate good and he followed Gacy to his house Oh my god, to make sure that it was the house. That's so brave So he gave the police this the address and the license plate and they did nothing with it. Oh my god So later when finally Gacy was caught, and it was shown that yes, he did do this,

Rignal testified against Gacy. And the people were. But for Gacy. And he said, he said that he was hoping that Gacy was insane and not sane during that attack. You would hope that, Because he said quote, the beastly and animalistic ways he attacked me. Just it had to have been insanity.

Because you would assume that somebody would have to be out of their fucking mind to do that. Well, and you wanna know how bad it was? He went describing what happened to him on the stand. He threw up. He threw up. No, he threw up on the stand. That's how badly he was like scarred. And this was years later. I believe it. That's, yeah, that's unimaginable torture.

So the next one now, and remember, that's like he, when he was caught later. But Jeffrey Rignal at this point was just released and nothing was done. And he had to just live with this. I can't imagine how, like, looking at the police and having them tell you, like, sorry, it's just been like, yeah, no, sorry. And you're just living your life now being like, cool. So he's just walking around. Because at that moment, you're like, oh, cool.

Like, I'm never safe. Yeah, exactly. You have to look behind your over your shoulder forever. So next on February 16, 1978, 19 year old William Kindred was another one that disappeared and was later found in the crawl space. June 1978, 20-year-old Timothy O'Rourke. He went missing. He was actually the first of Gacy's murder victims to be dumped into the Des Plains River. Okay. So this is when, like I said before, I think those other two that he let go was literally

because he didn't have any more room. And I think he realized. He really had to come up with that yet. Yeah, and I think he realized through those two that by releasing them, he wasn't getting the full experience he wanted because remember, he said before death is the greatest, the most erotic thing to him and he was like, I need this person to die for me to jack off like, so so now he's like, oh wait I can just throw them in the river and I can still get my what I need to get. So so Timothy or work was the the first one that was thrown into the Des Plains River. The next one was November 4, 1978.

It was 19-year-old Frank Landagrin. He was found later in the Des Plains River. A pair of underwear had been stuffed down his throat. They said he died of strangulation. The next one was November 24, 1978, 20-year-old James Mazara. He went missing on Thanksgiving Day and he was found in the Desplanes River on Thanksgiving Day. That's horrific. Now, those are four victims that they found in the Desplanes River, but Gacy claims he threw five over the bridge into the desplanes forever. So he says, according to him, he said one time

I threw one over and I didn't hear a splash. So I assume it hit a barge. And that's his claim, but okay, you know, who knows? Maybe he's just like fucking with people. So... So exactly. So I think earlier I'd said that the way that he finally got caught was his last victim. He decided to choose someone who had strong family ties. Bad idea. Right. I mean, that's, I just, why would you do that? Yeah. It's just, well, because he can't control it. It's just what, when he sees something, he wants it, and he doesn't care. And this was Robert Peast. This was December 11th, 1978.

He was 15 years old. Oh my God. Which is a baby. That is a baby. He was seen, so he worked at a pharmacy. And Gacy approached him and was like, hey, you know what? You look like you're a really good worker. I've been watching you.

And you look like you're in your strong. And you know, like, I could really use someone like you working at my contracting business. Do you want a summer job? And he was like, yeah, I don't know. And he was like, I already have a job. But like, right. And he was like, but you know what?

You could earn a lot of extra money. And he was like, OK, so Gacy was like, you just have to come back to my place and like sign some tax stuff and all that stuff and we'll get you rolling. So Robert's mother's birthday was that night, that was his mother's birthday. So he was like, he was a little hesitant and he was like, I wanna make sure I get home

for my mom's birthday. And he had mentioned that he was saving for a Jeep. Right. And so, Gacy was like, oh, you know what? I will give, you know, I'm going to pay you pretty good. You're going to be able to get your Jeep. Like, this is, you know, this is a really good opportunity. And like, I'm sure your mom will just be psyched that you got a new job.

Like, happy birthday to her. What a fucking douchebag. Yeah. So, so, Robert, like, are right. So he calls his mom and says, quote, some contractor wants to talk to me about a job. And then he says, he'll be home soon. Okay.

He was not. So when he got him back to his home, he offered him a drink. He did the rope trick and Robert was strangled. That's so sad. Thank God he called his mom and was like, this is where I'm going. Yeah. And what mom and was like, this is where I'm going. Yeah.

And what's awful is like, can you imagine his poor mother forever on her birthday? Yeah. Like, your child was brutally murdered on your birthday. That's the most horrific thing I can ever remember. No, I can't even. Well, Engasey himself said, he told Robert, quote, I'm going to rape you and you can't do anything about it. Jesus Christ.

And this is when he had him in the rope, like for the rope trick. And he said, Robert started to cry. And he said he put the grot around his neck and he said that he was, quote, crying scared. And then he said, after he killed him and he was lying on the floor dead, he took a business call real quick, while he's standing over his dead body. So the next day, Robert was reported to missing immediately because he didn't come home that night. A poor family, all these poor families, but yeah, and God. He was obviously the last one that was thrown in the river.

And he was pulled from the river on April 9, 1979. This is where I'm going to stop for part two. Okay, because this was the turning point. This is when the police do get involved. This is when Gacy becomes public enemy number one. And he is being tailed. It's under surveillance 24 seven. But this is not his last victim, right? This is when, this is his last victim. Oh, okay. But we definitely need to go into like the surveillance and how brazen and cocky he was.

And then, yeah. So in part three, we'll go through that. We'll go through his arrest, his court appearances, his interviews, and his prison sentence because he was executed and his last words are notable. Yeah. So, she... Uh, so yeah, so that is part two. We got through all the murders and the horrific.

God, I'm glad we are done with that part. Yeah. So now we can get into the cops and robbers part of it Everybody always gets mad at me for being like, oh my god. Oh my god. I'm glad we're done with that But I'm like, why are you mad at me for that? It's horrible. It's like this horrible But the episodes where we go through like the science behind it and yeah, I love all I love doing this podcast and all the episodes But I think part three is gonna be really cool to talk about after that. Yeah, part three gets away from the really dark shit

and gets more into the aftermath, which is interesting. And the surveillance part is really interesting because I mean, it's just how brazen he is with the police is pretty insane. That's my favorite part of True Crime just like the trials and stuff like that. And you find out like what makes people do certain things. That's what I, that's my favorite part of true crime. Oh yeah, definitely.

And talking about his interviews and stuff, he's quite a dude. Yeah, for sure. Well, if you want to follow us on Instagram before you listen to part two, you can go ahead and do that at Morbid Podcast. You can follow us on Instagram before you listen to part two, you can go ahead and do that at morbidpodcast. You can follow us on Twitter. A morbidpodcast. Hit us up on the gmail morbidpodcast.gmail.com

You can join our Facebook group morbid colon, a true crime podcast and you can donate to our patreon. That's a fun new perks You can check them out before you sign up. patreon.com slash morbidpodcast to We hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it But that's a way that you're a giant fucking asshole. Yeah, not so way that your gross clown that sits on your couch and just offers drinks It's important to little boys and then murders everybody. Don't ever keep that Real fucking Yeah, just stuff to do it. Bye! Hey, Prime members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com-survey.

you