Morbid - Episode 232: Morbid Chats With Heather Bish **AD FREE**

Episode Date: May 13, 2021

Before recording episode 214, The Tragic Case of Molly Bish, we reached out to Molly’s sister Heather who has been working tirelessly to get Molly’s case solved. Heather was kind enough to join us for an episode to give us an inside scoop on all the work she’s been doing to get Molly’s case solved, and just to let us in on who Molly was as a sister, a daughter and as a friend. Let’s all work together and get this case solved! TO HELP YOU CAN: Call the MA state police with any tips regarding Molly’s case at 508-453-7575 Contact your regional State Legislator to ask them to support S1595, An act permitting familial searching and partial DNA matches in investigating certain unsolved crimes. (You can find their numbers and email here: Molly Bish Foundation Read the Bill here: Bill S1595 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's ANGI, or download the app today. Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid. This is a super special morbid. I'm so ex- we just got off the phone with a very special guest. I'm like hyped that we got to do this. Yeah, it was amazing.

It was. So, in episode 214 we covered the case of Molly Bish. Molly Bish was a 16 year old lifeguard who on the morning of June 27, 2000 was essentially abducted from her lifeguard post. And really just honestly, go back and listen to the episode if you need like a refresher or anything like that. In plain daylight. Yeah, because in plain daylight, she was abducted from her. It was literally 10 o'clock in the morning. Yeah, terrifying.

It's so scary. But before actually, we did the episode, I actually reached out to Molly Sister Heather who's like very active in trying to solve Molly's case because this is an unsolved case. Yeah, so before it looks like 20 plus years later. It's so crazy and it's so sad. It's like a very tragic case. And we're from and it's it's so sad It's like a very tragic case and we're from Massachusetts. So it's like right. I feel like everybody from Massachusetts

Feels like they have some kind of like personal stake in this case like you just you want to see this and Like you'll hear in the interview We love the best family and I just feel like they are like our family Yeah, we want us we want this case to be solved like our Massachusetts brother like they are like our family. And we want this case to be solved. But like our Massachusetts brother. And so before, I mean, I read a ton about Heather before I started, or while I was researching the case, because she's so involved in trying to figure everything out. So we actually reached out to Heather and said,

hey, you know, we're going to cover Molly's case if you want to come on the show for like an after words kind of interview to tell us about the work that she's been doing to really get this case solved and then tell us of what we can do and the numbers that we can call and reach out to to help her get this case solved. Exactly because this is unsolved, which is nuts. So I'm so stoked that Heather was willing to do that and she joined us for an episode and you guys are going to love this episode. She's amazing.

You're all going to fall in love with it. Heather, Fish is an icon. She is. And what we talk about a lot in this, I just want to put it out first so that everybody can like start googling it while it's beginning because it's important is she's really starting to try or starting. She's really in the deep in the process of he tried to push forward the bill, which is S1595 in Massachusetts. And she will, I'll let her explain in the episode what it's all about.

It's basically to help push forward DNA that was found in Molly's case and also can help in other cases for rape kits. It has tons of implications. So go look that up real quick before the episode starts because I think you're going to want to know what's in there. Yeah, definitely. And then after the episode is over, we've got your cell phone and just start calling everyone we said to call. Yeah, we'll take a look at the show notes, I'll make sure I put all the information in there for you guys to so we can get this case solved. It's time. It is. It's time for Molly and it's time for the bitches. Time for this all. So I think without further ado, here it is.

Enjoy, guys. Well, thank you so much Heather for coming on the show. We're honestly really honored to have you as a guest and we appreciate you even taking the time to talk to us. Oh, that's so kind. You guys are really, I'm appreciative with what you're doing and sharing these stories and sharing Molly's story especially you know that that's so important especially with these older cases I mean this is this podcast phenomenon has just been so interesting to me and I'm just like hearing all of you you guys on a sideline so I love it I've seen out for every case that's getting pieces of information coming forward or even a rest happening. I'm just in awe of the work of all the

excuse me creators that are out there, you know, really sharing these stories. So I am honored. Thank you so much. That was so sweet. We were both just sitting there like, oh my God. Thank you. Already off to a wholesome start. I know, right? Well, like you, I mean, like you are saying that this case, Molly's case specifically, it captivated, I mean, the nation. It captivated everyone. And we got requests to cover Molly's case

from all over the world. Before we covered it, people were like, please cover this case. And we were always waiting to do it because we wanted to do it really right because we're from Massachusetts too. So we were like, we felt like a connection to this. We feel like this is like one of our family members because you know, here in Massachusetts,

we're all just like feeling like we're one. So we were like, we gotta do this right. And I think when that happens, it can be great because like information is getting out there. People are behind this case wanting to solve it, wanting to move it forward. But I imagine it must be kind of hard to, in a way, for family members because you have memories of Molly as a sister. Your brother has memories of Molly as a sister. Your parents have memory of Molly as a daughter,

she was a lifeguard, she was a friend, she was a person, she's not just Molly Bish, the murder victim, and I think sometimes that can get lost in translation, which I imagine can be kind of difficult for you guys at times. It is, and I think there's some, I don't know, I think when there's like a benefit of being able to talk about Molly, I think when you lose someone, you love whether it's a sibling or a spouse or your best friend, people can kind of get weird and they don't want to say anything and they sometimes even avoid walking down the same hallway as you, you know, just to not be in that awkward position. And I think, and so, you know, people don't get a chance to talk about the person that they loved, you know, and sometimes people are afraid to bring it up because, you know,

that loss was so sad and so devastating, but having the chance to talk about Molly, you know, and share, you know, the work that we do is really a reflection of Molly's love and her love for the world and people and it's kept us going and I guess that it's a really special privilege of all this craziness and all the ugliness is that we do get to talk about my sister and think about her and share how our special memories and our moments of joy and how we were proud of her. And sometimes my brother and I will have conversations after we, you know, I do these podcasts or where there's a, you know, a new article or something and we'll talk about, like, what do you think should be like, or who would she still be fun with from her fun group or what

would you think of this particular situation or you know and it you know it's kind of you know fun for us to do that to imagine what our life would be like to have her with us still because we miss her. I mean, that loss is still felt every single day. You know, I miss calling her when something good happens. I really miss her on my birthday. I hate my birthday without my sister. It's still awful 20 years later. I just, she should be there with me. And every year that I have to face without her, it's like, you know, everything that scab off and bleeding again. So it's, yeah, it's hard, but there's, there is, you try to, I guess, when there's hard

things, always look for those moments that offer, you know, the good and try to embrace that because I don't know how we would survive all this terrible time in the world if we did. Seriously, I can't even imagine trying to navigate this whole entire thing, you know, on top of everything else in the world. So, right. You have such a healthy way of looking at it. I'm hoping, yeah. That I think a lot of people would have trouble doing. hoping, yeah, that I think a lot of people would have trouble doing. So we're plugged mental health and we can hear our emotional health right now. And there's the amount of things to go to therapy for 20 years. Absolutely.

Because it's so important to continue to unwrap how you're responding to the world and how your family culture sort of trained you to respond to the world and how you know either want to do that or maybe think about a different way of doing it. Exactly. Yeah, we're Irish Catholic over here so we know all about that. We grew up in a big Irish Catholic family. We're like maybe we should talk about our feelings. I just love the generation. Again, I work at a college, so I have the privilege of working with the younger generations. And I just love how they're growing up so much more inclusively and talking about feelings. And I just think it's going to make a better

world someday. Absolutely. Absolutely. For sure. I know. And it's really up to us at this point to teach Yeah, the younger generation how to do that because I think our parents generation was like right at that point where they were like Kind of ready to tell us to talk about our Towing the line. It gets better each time Yep, exactly. Yeah, well going off of that What is like one thing about Molly from a sister's perspective that you want people to know about Molly or even like a specific memory that you guys have together that makes you smile? I think I always talk about Molly's love for the world. Most loved people, she loved

animals, she loved babies, she loved being outside, the sunshine of beautiful day, getting an ice cream cone. She loved living. She loved life. She loved being a part of what was happening around her. And I think, you know, when I think about Molly and I, I guess I'm always most proud of how she welcomed people. When she had an art class, she had some special needs students and then I always tell this story of how she would write them a note and kind of like encouraging

them to be a part of the class and welcoming them and making them feel at home because they weren't in the other class, but the rest of the students, they weren't like a bunch of effort classrooms. And you know, just her empathy and her ability to think about other people that thoughtfulness. And I try to carry that out with me and my life and think about different perspectives and turn things over all the time and because of my sister. And she was my baby sister, but that's what she taught me in my life. And I hope that people know that the work that we do is because of that. Because Molly cares so much about people.

She cares so much about the world and making people feel safe and comfortable in their environment. And that's a premise of everything that we want to see happening. I guess when you have a case that's almost 21 years old, you're like, where is this guy? And has he heard other people? And you know, you guys are quality, various cases and you know,

there's a lot of bad guys out there. There's a lot. So scary and you can go from, you know, being a narcissist to a murderer and, you know in a short time. And again, that mental health is so important. But I think just trying to live in a way that we're trying to make the world safer because of Molly.

And so recently, I've been working on this familial DNA legislation in Massachusetts, which they have in, like, I mean, 14 other states. And it's just really just a process to test the DNA or unidentified DNA from an older case or an older, you know, maybe a rape case or a murder, and be able to have a larger, I call it a net to sort of get the bad guy. And you know, we have this code system that has all of our, our, um, felonies in their, um, DNA profiles, um profiles theoretically. I know you guys know this.

Oh yeah, no go ahead though. Yeah, because this is Bill, is it S1595? Yeah, okay. Yeah, because we were we were going to ask you like by all means tell us as much as you can about that because we want everybody to know about that. Yeah, so it's just really what it does is it allows law enforcement to put this unidentified DNA forward into codeus again and tough for a partial math or familial math. So it might, you know, touch on someone 56% or 37% but that will lead investigators to say, hmm, someone in this campaign committed this rape or committed the murder and they can go back

to the drawing boy and figure out where the players were and that family that day. In narrowest the fields, like on the eve of the day. And what's interesting to me that I found out is that 50% of the people in Coda have a relative in Coda. So it's so funny because I came across that too and it shocked me. I know that's a high number. But then I thought like okay well there's a lot of futures in my family that's my family culture. And I guess that you know you're in a family culture that you you know, race or the rest of each other, that's going to continue.

And so they want to have, you know, people getting arrested in the same family network that are experiencing that trauma. And we all know that these behaviors aren't, you know, coming out of the blue. Most people are turning to crime and these horrific things that they do to other people because of trauma. Oh yeah. So, nurture is a huge part of it.

Yeah, so you know, that's a sad societal number story for us, but if you look at it in a law enforcement perspective or a victim perspective, those are, I mean, those are, those are all I'd put money on, and it could be, you know, you know, seriously. For real. You know, we're gonna get the bad guy, and he was using science, and it hasn't, you know, you know, unidentified, identified the wrong person, you know, it actually used by the innocence project in Michigan

as a way to genreate people. So really it's just, for this bill, it's just setting up a protocol in how we would do it in Massachusetts. And I'm just really, really hopeful that we can get this through. We have an 8,000, about an 8,000 rate kit backlog in Massachusetts. So we would see to get on top of what's happening forensically in our state. I mean, where leaders with MIT and WTI, there's no reason for cranking out forensic scientists in Boston.

And they're all leaving the state. We need to put some resources together for our forensic, I think. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, we need to nourish this. We have it here. We're Absolutely. Yeah, we need to nourish this. We have it here. We're building it here.

We need to nourish it here. Right. Exactly. And you know, we have a lot of, you know, what's the county alone? It has 40 to 60 on, on resolved cases. That's so crazy. So sad.

Make it go back to the 50s. And, you know, technology might be able to identify this by now. So I think it's just so important to use what scientific resources are available for law enforcement. And today's society, I mean, there's good cops and bad cops, just like everything, good teachers and bad teachers. And we just want to give the police officers all the tools available to get those bad

people off the street. So, you know, there aren't like, there aren't 8,000 right-top things. Yeah. Because I think that's one of the huge things about this is this bill can not only help cases like Mollies and families, you know, that are going through the same thing that you're going through. But this can, those rape kits that are sitting through the same thing that you're going through. But this can those rape kits that are sitting on the shelf. It's like this sitting like this off the street. Like this is something everybody should be invested in and everybody should

be behind. Absolutely. I'm nervous. And you know, some of these rates are violent. Yeah. You know, like I'd keep trying to stress. And I, you know, I know I'm preaching to the choir with you guys, but, you know, it's a hair's both away when someone commits one crime to go to a next level. Of course. You know, it is in a state of sort of paranoia as I coast as to go, you know, further deeper. I think we just, you know, we need all that tools available. Absolutely. Because some of these can connect to more violent, you know, uh, offenders, yeah, like, you know, somebody raped someone and they could have escalated to something else and we have no idea. Right?

Yep. Exactly. Exactly. Do you think, oh, sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna say, you know, I'm just really hopeful this time that it will go through because we started this about two years ago. I had talked to my law enforcement detectives and they had asked that, you know, if you want to work on something, we could really use this familiar DNA.

And I had no idea what it was at the time. I was like, okay, let's do it. Sure, here like anything, let's do it. You know, being in Massachusetts, they're like, every other state has done this as a policy. And Massachusetts is like, no, we want a law. And it's not a high-risk, but thanks, Mass.

Fine, but I'm like, I look high in every mountain. I will scream from the mountain top until I get this guy. And who care, I'll fire it, takes me. I am bound every mountain. I will scream from the mountain top until I get this guy. And who cares? I'll fire it takes me. I am bound and determined. And now it's, you know, you're in that club, you know, that everybody talks about that nobody wants to belong to, like, they're, you know, you really start

caring about all these other victims, particularly the ones that had attention. Like, I constantly talk about Patty Garnier, who was murdered and was her brother founder the next day. People didn't search for Patty like they did for Molly. You know, they didn't get the national attention that Molly has gotten. And, you know, I just hope that it means this will help solve Patty Garnier's case too.

Absolutely. It's important, as all these other victims, that are seeing on the news and in podcasts. And, you know, so, you know, we're all in this together. And, you know, I'm just really hopeful that this will go through this time because we, during COVID, it kind of fell apart. And I was on the Mass and Mississippi person's top course. So we were kind of looking at legislation

that was floating around in Massachusetts and trying to put a report together to encourage the legislators to just pass this kind of new brainer. So they said, well, we uh, let we send your bill, how they're over to the forensic oversight committee, and you know, being an educator, I'm like, yeah, I am used to looking with like, when I have a problem, I'm working with the autism specialist, the fourth grade teacher. And we're all kind of coming up with something together. And I have to really just fill myself with,

you know, a special ed teacher, not a science expert. I really could. But here we go. You're like, I am putting on another hat. Here he is, please. So it worked out really well because they provide the feedback But here we go. You're like, I am putting on another hat. Seriously. So it worked out really well because they provide the feedback where we were able to edit the bill, really to fit our logistical structures and systems and Massachusetts.

And I think it's going really strong. And I've been spending probably the last two months homing legislators and just asking them to support this. And most of them will see me or resume. And has been really supportive, but some of them won't meet missing because I'm not in their jurisdiction. So I've been trying to start doing kick talks. And whatever media I can use to sort of get people who are in, just people to reach out to their legislators and ask them to support this bill. And whatever media I can use to sort of get people who are in,

just people to reach out to their legislators and ask them to support this bill and be the voice that I can't be in the interest section to possibly get this past. Now it's important for victim families, it's important for law enforcement and it's most important for the justice where all these victims that we have.

100% definitely. Do you, is there anything else that people can do? Like people listening, other like call legislation obviously. Yeah, I would say that would be the most important thing. If people could call their legislators and just ask them to support a 1595 in Massachusetts and we have a list of legislators on our website. So people if you don't know who your legislator is or turned over,

you know things are kind of crazy this year. I don't know who who who true or not. Exactly, but that's good. You have that right there for people to find. And we'll share, we'll put that the link in our show notes for this. And people will have all the places they can go. Yeah, we can even post like a picture of it. Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Oh, absolutely.

I think this is like huge. Like we are fully like, yes, let's do. When we stepped into this case and just kind of started going through everything. I think because we are sisters it yeah almost gave us that extra edge that like we want to help you we feel so connected to this. Yeah it felt like Molly was like we felt like your family reminded us so much of our family. Our big Massachusetts family like we just your parents just like I remember us in the episode we're just like oh my god I just love this family and I want them to get justice so badly.

Thank you so much. I just you know I feel like that's you know Molly's love signing down from now. When I started this it's so interesting I there was like, you know, a little article in the Cape Cod time, but I live out here in Cape Cod now. And so this man emailed me from California. His name is Rock Harmon, and he's actually the DNA expert that travels the world training law enforcement and prosecutors and some attorneys on using DNA in the different tools. And I didn't find one. I'm talking to you, but he, you know, he was very nice and really coaching me and helping me really understand the science part, which was really imperative

for me to do this. Yeah, huge. So turns out he was a former prosecutor on the O.J. Simpson case. Oh, wow. And he just so putt by, you know, what had happened in that case, that that became a sort of a mission for him. And, you know, retired in California, and he's then, you know, sending the articles and explaining things for me, going to meetings with me, talking to district attorneys to explain

and the real nuances, like YSDR profiles and familiar DNA and what are these little differences. So to me, those of like, when Mr. Roger talked about, look for the helper. Yes, look for the helper. That's the helper. And that's, those are the things you hold on to in life. And remember, all the good and the good people that are still out there, because we're much

stronger than, you know, these people who are really sick and committed for a sick act. Right. And there's been a lot of people of interest it seems over the course of the past 20 years. Is there anyone on the suspect list that, or anyone as a person of interest that you think is a good candidate for this? Or do you think that it's someone we maybe even haven't looked at yet? Yeah, I wish, you know, I wish I could just feel like, you know, that sisterly commission, that's the guy, but there's so much circumstantial evidence

to do so much. Some particular people that have been out there in the media, and you know, there's always that wildcard that was just someone that happened to go smoke a cigarette before he went to work or after he dropped off, you know, his mother asked at an appointment or something and saw this waste side there and then came back the next day in Grabter. Yeah.

You know, I've never really been able to identify the guy in the white car. He's never come forward. So could he be Rodney Stanton? Could he be Gerald Bass-Sony? Could he be, you know, any of the number of other people that have been brought up? Right. Possibly, possibly, because we know witness,

you know, testimony is kind of tricky. And my mom saw the guy, but yeah, it's hard to say, that's the guy, that's the guy, that's the guy. That's not the guy. They always like the guy. Yeah, they all do in some specific way. It's true. It must be so frustrating too because I'm sure you get this really giant feeling of hope every time a new person is introduced. Absolutely, I do. And you know, you just, you know, you try to make sense of who, who it,

You know, you try to make sense of who, who it, how would they exist after and who, you know, who could possibly do this right, and so it's hard to wrap you know when you go that and you know I wish I wish I could you know no I you know we talked about psychics I mean when Molly first disappeared I had an 11-year-old baby and I had found my hip and I did running through the woods with these psychics and I mean I didn't know if I was going to find my sister's body or or something you know it was so terrifying but you didn't know what to do and you're just trying to do something but you know no one's ever been able to say exactly and point me to the evidence. I mean, I've worked with some really, really great psychics, I think are, you know, meaning well and authentic, but still have not been able to break down, you know,

who did this? And, you know, I've tried every avenue for a store. I mean, we've put up billboards. We've taken out ads and newspapers. We've put up posters and 351 towns, and that's two of them. I've actually hired producers to document a YouTube movie video. So that I could keep my parents' story and parents' story and, and, and sort of a summary on the story and, and be able to share it because of the time lapse and people not email necessarily

remembering what happened. So, you know, it's tied everything and, you know, the, the results of the familial searching and across the country are just so phenomenal and really hopeful and you know that even the genetic genealogy work they're doing. Yeah. Just so hopeful that Massachusetts will really grab on to that and and and demonstrate, you know, the leadership that they should be having in this field, I think. Yeah, because it does feel like it's like, it's like right there. Like it could be hidden in there somewhere. Why are we not doing this?

I mean, the stuff I'm doing in California is unbelievable. Yeah, I mean, we have this controversy right now with these YSTI list. And some of the district attorneys are keeping what so forensic lab in Massachusetts is calling rogue list, but I would probably just call them unregulated. Yeah, that means. So they would get like a profile back, you know, they might get a crime scene on DNA or or sometimes they even they even using voluntary DNA,

but they're putting it through the wire that doesn't have a hit, and they're keeping the profile separately. I'm not really supposed to do that, but they're saying nothing seemed like they can't do that. And Bristol County was able to solve a case with Clemens working together on that. The thing is, YSC Island gives you

all this fun profile, so it's a little more limiting. But, and so if you did like, like if you, like, if I was in charge of the world or the, you know, you'd do the first code search, and then you do the submission, because that's going to catch the wire. Now, you actually don't need the YSCR profile if you do the familial kind of negates it. Oh, that's right. So, but I mean, if they're not encoded,

I mean, there's value to it if it's regulated. Orange County is a bit in California, and they basically will let a guy off on a misdemeanor. If he gives them their DNA, and then they catch them for a rape three months later. I mean, they're dealing with a probably different population. I know. In English, out there, and stuff, but it's an effective tool, and certainly has demonstrated

the effect of here. And I think that maybe it's just maybe a separate bill that needs to be co-forward differently. But I always try to explain it because you know it's on the news and sometimes the reporters don't go into the whole story of what's really happening here and you know I get why the DAs are doing it again. They want to solve these 8,000 ricks that are backlogged at the lab. They're definitely committed to getting the bad guys up the street. It's just, you know, you know, again, I think we just need to update our 22E law

and make these, you know, changes to our protocols so that we can do these tough and, you know, have these tools and see what happens. Definitely. One of the things that we actually talked about in our episode was at the old sawmill cramp ground that you guys use the ground penetrating radar. And I didn't really see any update on that after like 2018 was that any, did anything like useful come of that or anything at all?

Oh, so that was a good one. So I, you know, have worked with a number of different private investigators over, you know, since I guess when my father had a stroke, I kind of took over the investigation in 2007. So I worked with a couple different ones bringing different people forward. We had a volunteer in our foundation who, you know, was volunteering in 2003 when she was getting her degrees and criminal criminology I'm running out of ideas. I put up posters, I put up ads, I put up all these things, what else can I do. And so we came up with an idea of doing a tip campaign. And she was going to use her students from college where she taught to collect the tips. And then we organized them and then present them to the police. And so that's how the third person of interest sort of came forward. That he sort of identified to the the strip campaign.

Because of that, he felt really strongly that there was a car in this campground. So he arranged with someone from the University of Connecticut to come out and use this gun penetrating radar. However, our state police were not involved in it, and I was asked at my daughter's, just starting college orientation. And so we were, you know, I was available and it turned into service media circus. And I was kind of a person who was supposed to be like, you know, I like to work with the police. I, you know, again, I recognize all the issues. I'm literally have a book ready to publish

on my relationship with the police and how it's impacted my way. Oh, wow. Congratulations on reading your book. That's huge. That's a couple of years ago. A couple of edits to do. But, you know, I still try to work with them.

I try to encourage best practices and have the hope that this institution is going to, you know, someday get the concept here. That's great. So I can just, I've only seen that lately enough, but so I was kind of put that, you know, had it turn out this way. And so I was like, let's see some of this.

I don't want to do that anymore. And I just kept pushing. She ended up having a press conference without my, my, our knowledge, acknowledge knowledge. I know. Oh, no. Oh, you say so it really and I was like, you've crossed my boundaries now. Yeah, absolutely. Let's stop this now. And so I never found out what happened with the car.

I don't think it. I'm certain that the police could get that information and they aren't we're so irritated and so close to like charging her that it never so I don't think that there's anything to the campground with a car. Okay that makes sense. Yeah I'm straighting. Yeah I'm going to go to book after. Oh my goodness. Yeah. That is not okay. You know what? It would have been fine if you had done like a case study on Molly.

Yeah. Again, she had the education to do that. But she put my parents' speeches into the book and like put herself into our story, like she was part of our life. Oh, no. Oh, that honestly, like gives me like a pit in my stomach. Yeah, I was going to say my stomach just flake. Flake. Flake. Literally, like you wrote like a pit in my stomach. Yeah, I was gonna say my stomach just was so gross. Literally, like you wrote letters to Molly in the book.

Like if you read the book, you're always smoked. Oh, hey, that's the thing that's frustrating. Like to have to go through that. Yeah. Very betraying, very violating. Yeah, that's the thing. Violation is what it feels like, right? Yeah, yeah, very, very much so.

Oh, so, yeah, I mean, that's what that went. So, I'm kind of just doing this on my own, but so appreciative of these, you know, podcast appearing about the case and, you know, the work that we're trying to do to keep it going and, you know, I'm not sure what I'll have to do after this bill, but I'm sure there's more work to be done to support these cases. You know, I was talking to a producer the other day, and I said, if I told you that I was in a relationship with someone who, you know know dance way to me and

progressive and um you know and I kind of gave her some specific situations that happened and she's like yeah I would be in a decent relationship and I said what if I told you that was a safe place and it wasn't a man oh my god that was the perfect way to do that that's awesome no drop yeah like she's like hold on is that because that change things or Perfect way to do that. That's awesome No, I'll drop Like she's like hold on a sec because that change things or And I hold her and I said and and then I'm a wait woman with a sister who's blonde and blue I don't we know the cases get more intense. Yeah, and I have and I have a doctor. I'm educated and I'm still treated this way So how do you imagine and my father was in law enforcement.

He was a probation officer. So there's a little, you know, there are little nights about my death. But, you know, if they're treating me this way, how do you think they're treating Patty gunning family? Yes. Absolutely.

That's, I think, probably a lifelong work that all of us victim family members are pushing and sort of trying to figure out how to you know get our points across and get them to understand our perspective without being sort of labeled the crazy victim family members. Of course. Great. Well, and I feel like that's something we can all take from Molly and who she was and who you know, you knew her as and who everyone who knew her new her as, which is like empathy caring about the world, caring about other people, like putting yourself in somebody else's shoes. This is what everybody should be learning is like it's not just about mine. It's about everybody else's too. You know what, it's like B Molly in art class. Yeah, exactly. Right.

That should be everybody's thought. It should. Right. I love it. I'm so happy you shared that with us. That made me honestly like choke up a little bit. I know. That's great.

Oh, thank you guys. I really appreciate it. Oh, yeah, absolutely. One of the other things that we had spoken about in our episode, and I was just curious as to your opinion on this, is the Holly Perrin in case, I know it's like heavily compared to Molly's case and some of the suspects or persons of interest

were looked at in both cases. Do you think that maybe those cases are connected or what are your thoughts on that? You know, I think that there is certainly lots of room to look at the connections. I think that's really incredibly important, but I don't necessarily think it's the same person, but I do that, you know, my father used to say, if you lay down with dogs, he's going to get pleased. Yeah. Watch your, watch who your friends are, right?

Absolutely. I kind of think that there's a group out in that area. Again, these generational trauma, you know, same kind of history of violence, history of family violence, history of beating, history of more stations, history of, you know, Uncle Mary and the cousin, sister of brother, you know, like that kind of stuff, and they're all connected in these weird ways. And that's the stuff I talk to the the detective about because I'm like, do you understand this? I know when I walk into your office, it's not going to be like, you know, like the TV shows where you've got the all the guys,

the strings connecting people and, you know, we always talk about that. Literally don't even have data systems that talk to each other barely. Right. So, so even look up a guy, you know, that some a while ago is difficult for them. And then to get the larger perspective of, sorry, I don't know. I have a dog too, so I got it. So to have those nuances, I know that this guy was best friends with this guy, or their

cousins, or their things, like motorcycles together, those little nuances, I am afraid I'm at. Yeah. They're not from war and massachusetts or star virginessachusetts. So you don't necessarily know that, I'm not making these names up, the Smith-Five related to the Johnson, or whatever, and they don't have that kind of network information.

So that's the stuff I'm afraid gets lost. And those are the key pieces that I think could possibly show that there's a tie between Holly and Molly's case. Yeah. I mean, different ages, different situations and how they were about to spend certainly different times. And again, I'm trying to say, I mean, it's so easy to want to believe that one bad guy killing all these girls in a specific area, the sad reality is that there's a lot of different bad guys and they're all killing different girls. Exactly.

It's like indicative of like a darker pathology as a whole, right? In the community, you know, that like a subculture isn't looked at. Yeah. Yep, exactly. Exactly, and that's what's so scary. And that's why it's so important to continue to look for ways to protect, you know, our children and our women and, you know, our society and, you know, sharing these stories and working on let it play, and encouraging the mental health component, I think, are just, you know, such important pieces to continue

to talk about and discuss and provide reasons why. Yeah. Definitely. Exactly. I think I'm sorry. Go ahead. Just going to say real quick. I think one of the really transformative moments for me was when that little girl and I don't know if you remember last maybe two years ago now there's little girl object in Springfield, Massachusetts. Yes. And they remember her and she was recovered. I mean,

I'll write that she had been through some pretty bad trauma, but he was recovered alive. And I called my mom and I said, Mom, that was your state. Because we always, when we started the foundation, we were always like, we don't know if we're really helping. You know, we don't know if we're saving children. Like there's no, you know, data system saying, oh, this kid wasn't affected because, you know, Maggie this helped bring him as Massachusetts for starting to spend children's day or, you know, started

talking about Tyler identification kits. So when that happened, and my mom did work on the Amber Alert Law coming in Massachusetts and talked head Kennedy into signing that bill. And so I felt like she needed that. She needed to know that that little girl had been saved because of her work and her efforts and I think if we continue to do things like that, you know, other little girls will be saved and you know, maybe we won't have to, you know, experience these kinds of tragedies and traumas anymore. And again, if we continue

to look at trauma and understand it and try to support people through it, maybe think about differently for everybody. Absolutely, I think that's like the main message that I write there. And also your families, you are such badasses. You have done such incredible work all of you together. It's unreal. Oh, thank you. I mean, again, I think it's just, you know, an outlet to both my sister and, you know, share that love. And that's really all you can do in your face with something like that.

Yeah, no, it really is. I think kind of just to end all of this, what can, what, what is one last thing you can tell us all that we can do to help you and your family get Molly's case solved? Well, I think the best thing anyone could do right now is to go on MollyVish.com and find their Massachusetts for a display there and if they're in Massachusetts and reach out to him or her and ask them to support F-1595 to be passed this year.

If you're not from that statistic, you know, continuing to share Molly's story, continuing to share the results of familial DNA analysis across the country. I mean, right now we only have about 14-15 states that have it, and there's 50 states in this country. I mean right now we only have about 14 15 states that have it and there's 50 states in this country. So we really get on this because there's certainly more these case and you know isn't the only case. I mean let it spend in Minnesota and Florida who have experienced equally traumatizing abductions in their family and you know having these tools are important for all of us to have in this country and to keep us safe there.

Absolutely. And I think I want to encourage everyone to go to the Molly Bish Foundation webpage, which we're going to link all of these things in the show notes so everybody can get to all of this. Also, if you want to read Bill S1595, I'm going to link where you can read that too, because you can go on the mass legislator.gov website to find it. But I think this is important. Everybody should know that this is like so far reaching.

This is so necessary. It's so important that this bill goes through. So everybody give your support. As a true crime community. Let's come together and get this done. Absolutely. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. No, thank you. Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. And everything you shared was just like so so I opening.

Thank you. I really was. This was such an awesome conversation. Thank you. I really appreciate it. And I just really appreciate you guys in your core and your dedication and you know being from Massachusetts. Thank you so much. And we'll absolutely stay in touch. If anything else that anything else

comes up that we can do to help like we really want to help work with you. Yeah we feel like very strongly about this case, about you guys, your family, about Molly. We would love to push this forward in any way we can. Awesome. Thank you so very much. I will definitely stand up. Absolutely. You are welcome anytime here. You have our number now, so text us anytime, recall. Any updates will have you right back on. Thank you so much Heather. Take care. You too.

Bye. So we hope you guys enjoyed that episode. Yes. I think it was awesome and you can go to the Molly Bish Foundation dot com or excuse me Molly Bish foundation dot com to contact your legislators and ask them to support Bill S 15 95. Yeah, and we'll put all that in the show notes So just look at where you look at the details for the episode and we'll have all those all the links in there that you can follow But do it. I think it's it's good for everybody. It's gonna benefit us all so it is and thanks again to Heather for joining us Thank you so much Heather you were a gem. So guys we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but that's everything you don't call about Bill as 50 95. nd nd nd nd

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