Morbid - Episode 233: The Smiley Face Deaths/Murders Mystery

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

Since 1997 young men have been disappearing for periods of time and then turning up in bodies of water. Upon first glance it’s easy to brush these off as accidents, young men drinking too much and slipping or falling to their deaths: sad but not unheard of. It was in 2008 that Kevin Gannon, Anthony Duarte, Mike Donovan and Dr. Lee Gilbertson presented a theory to the world: What if these cases aren’t accidents at all? What if there is some kind of gang spread across the nation, picking these guys off 1 by 1. Insert the name of the case, The Smiley Face Killers.   As always, thank you to our sponsors: Upstart: Find out how Upstart can lower your monthly payments today when you go to UPSTART.com/MORBID CareOf: For 50% off your first Care/of order, go to TakeCareOf.com and enter code morbid50 ThriveMarket: Join Thrive Market today to get $20 off your first order AND an exclusive FREE gift! The ONLY way to get this offer is by going to Thrive Market.com/MORBID Embr: You can save $50 on either product by visiting embwave.com/Morbid See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, Prime members, you can listen to morbid, early, and ad-free on Amazon music. Download the app today. You're listening to a morbid network podcast. Whether you're running errands on your daily commute, or even at home, you can enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app, the Audible app. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog. This includes the latest bestsellers and new releases. Plus get full access to a growing selection of included audiobooks, audible originals,

and more. If you've been wanting to form good habits, break bad ones, and improve motivation, atomic habits written and narrated by James Clear is a great lesson. It'll reshape your mindset on progress and success by helping you develop strategies to transform your habits. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash wundery pod or text wundery pod to 500-500 to try audible for free for 30 days.

That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y-P-O-D. Audible.com slash wundery pod or text wundery pod to 500-500 to try audible for free for 30 days. You can host the best backyard barbecue. When you find a professional on Angie to make your backyard the best around. Connect with skilled professionals to get all your home projects done well. Inside to outside, repairs to renovations. Get started on the Angie app or visit Angie.com today. You can do this when you Angie that.

Hey, Weirdo's I'm Ash. And I'm Alaina. And this isric morbid. Hello there. We also have a wind storm. I think I didn't know if you were going to say anything about it, but as soon as I was like, this is morbid, the one was like, what was it like? Thank you, I just wanted to make sure.

Yeah, I just happened to like gaze out the window, as I said, like, hello. And then I was like, oh, it's an actual wind storm outside. Like, there's trees bending over. You know what's scary is right behind my head is a very large tree. And whenever it's windy, I'm like, one of these days, I'm probably just going to die in the seat while reporting about like something else. And then I'll cover it.

Thank you. So that's not necessarily the tree is the murderer. Yeah, so hello, it's an Ash Center episode. And I think that was a little technical glitch in the listener tails episode this week. Sorry about that. I know like everybody and we included are always like, it's been a week, but like, oh boy, it's been a week. This week takes the cake.

It's really, that. Nothing even like actually bad happened. No, it was just a series of very stressful, annoying events. Weird like fuck ups and failures of just, yeah. Nothing huge, nothing that was like, but you know when things,

and I'm sure everybody, like, you get me right, guys. Like everything, when everything just like comes together in the most shitty way, just like everything you try to do during the week, you just fail at. See, the new moon is like supposed to bring like new beginnings, but I feel like it had a little bit of like, demolished to clean up, like the first week after the new moon, I guess we just had to like get through all the shit

of like the last moon. We had to sweep, I guess. And I'm feeling, yeah, it's like, it's like you swept, but then you didn't vacuum. Hopefully we're cleansed. I think we are. After this week, because I mean, it even leaked into like, you know, everything.

It was like, we tried to do scream this week and it got all messed up. We just like, everything was messing up. I don't know what it was Everything. But you know what? It's a new week soon. So we're yeah, we're totally fine We're gonna be good tonight even tonight. I think tonight's the start of something new. There you go And I think the only other thing I wanted to kind of like mention before we start was the Tristan Bailey case Holy hell

It's everybody. I'm sure you've all heard about it if you haven't definitely look it up was the Tristan Bailey case. You know, holy hell. It's everybody, I'm sure you've all heard about it. If you haven't, definitely look it up because it's insane and it's happening right now. It's horrible. We are going to cover that case, but we wanna see it through to the end. So we wanna make sure we watch this whole trial.

We wanna see someone charge. Wanna see someone, like officially, we want everything to be kind of buttoned up a little more because things in the beginning when you start to read articles like one article will say this and then another article will say this and then this other one over here said that Liz Persons said this and you're like, but what? And what's the truth? It's just not enough information out right now for us to feel comfortable reporting about it. Yeah. But we do want to acknowledge like, wow. And our hearts go out to her family. I can't imagine.

Truly. And you know what it is? It's really showing the double-edged sword that social media is. Because social media can be this like beautiful thing that can help solve cases. It can do awesome stuff. And bring people together. Bring people together. All this awesome stuff. And then it can be the worst fucking invention that ever came about in humanity. And we see this when a picture is posted on a news website of Tristan, a 13 year old girl who was murdered brutally.

Yeah. And some of the comments on there, I can. Are things that, honestly, you look at them and you're like, well, there you are, future murderer. Like it's just, there you are. We're all seeing it happen. It's like, you have to be a despicable person to say some of the things I was seeing, seriously.

Like people sitting there saying she deserved it, she shouldn't have worn that. It's like, what the fuck? The whole thing you shouldn't have worn that. She's a baby. Literally, I can't. She's a child. That is a uniform that she was wearing. She's also a child who was murdered.

I don't give a shit what she was wearing. It has nothing to do with it. And then the other thing is like. And her family has to see that. That's so fucked. All these like kids that are like making Instagrams about it saying the most- The most-

It's like where, what is going on? Who raised you? Well, I was just gonna wear your parents. Like my kids, what is going on? Who raised you? Well, I was just gonna wear your parents. Like, my kids, I'm gonna monitor their fucking social media until they're like 18 years old. Oh yeah, my kids like, until forever, God speed to them, because, but it's also just like,

how, how does that happen? How does your brain work that way? Cause never once as a child, did I ever be like, it would be really fun to harass the family of a murdered child. Like that never entered my mind as like, oh, you know what would be fun to do?

No. And it just, it really blows my mind so sick and it really is. It really is. We've been following it like very closely. We just wanted to let everybody know because I know a lot of people were like, you know, tagging us being like,

we gotta cover this and we definitely will. I'm definitely willing. It will people were like, you know, like tagging us being like, we gotta cover this. And we definitely will. Definitely will. It will be covered because, you know, Tristan's story should be told. But we wanna just make sure that we wait for it to get a little more clear and tighten down. You know, a more fuller picture of what's going on.

So we will be covering that eventually. We just want to let you know. And you know, be nice on line, guys. I know no one listening here does that shit, but go comment something nice on someone's picture. Yeah, just go be nice. Go make someone stay. Pay for the person behind you in the drive-through.

Yeah, because you know what? That's my favorite. I hope I'm behind you. There you go, right? I love you. I don't just find you. But honestly though, you see a nice, even just something as simple as,

because I think I tweeted about how our weekends been shared. And the amount of people that were just like, yeah, me too, I'm having a shitty week too. Like hopefully both of us get better high five. Like it was just like nice. Well, here's the thing, I think sometimes even I do this, like I'll go to say something like nice. And I'm like, oh, they might think that's weird if I say that.

Like I'm just gonna not say that. It's like, no, fuck it, Who cares if they think you're weird? Just spread positivity and niceness. Because you know what? Nasty people never think twice about what they say. They just shoot off at their fucking mouse and they don't care that they're gonna ruin someone's day. And you never know.

So you know what? Don't think twice about being too nice. Because you never know if that person, like your comment is really gonna help the day better. Exactly. Cause it does, it works. It does. There's our little PSA about internet, you know,

courtesy, etiquette, all of the above. But yeah, it was the Tristan stuff that just like really, give me a really sour taste in my mouth. People are gonna get it. Unfortunately, as we're gonna see with this case, I'm covering too, actually. Yeah, let's just segue right into the worst kind of people. Yeah, the absolute worst kind of people.

And the people that we just don't know. It was gonna say an unknown people. Yeah, this isn't even like an unsolved case. It's a kind of an unsolved case, it's just very confusing. You know what we're here for, because the episode tightens. It's the Smiley Face Killers. And I have done nothing but like watch Smiley Face Killer documentaries for the past two weeks,

like read every possible article that I could, let like, ask article that I could, let Astru if I could tell him all the terrifying things in this case, and he was like, please don't, maybe call Alaina. But I was like, no, because I can't tell her everything, because then I can't surprise her. And I was like, and also, I already did.

So there's that. So we are covering the Smiley Face Killer's phenomena, I guess you could call it. Oh, my God. It's like, what is happening? The mystery. It's crazy. Because since about 1997 and various parts of the US,

there have been hundreds. Like, I think the number is up to like 300, over 300 now of all these cases that they think may be associated with this. And it's young college men just ending up dead in water somewhere. And a lot of these cases have been ruled accidental drownings, but a lot of people do not think that's the case, and I am one of those people. I kind of stand... Are you a little bit in the middle?

I'm a little in the middle. I can see both sides. So I'm eager to see what after this you won't, because I'm biased. But when is as well just get that out right now. Yeah, like I definitely think that this is a killer for some purpose. And I'm gonna stay in my middle lane here and I'll see. Yeah, see how you feel at the end. I also think that this is gonna be part, this is gonna be part two.

This is gonna be two parts. Yeah. But each victim shares some kind of similarity with the next in these cases. It's usually like a pretty successful guy who's in college, making honors, or like a promising young athlete. Like these kids have everything going for them, and the whole future is ahead of them. But it's somehow after a night out with friends, they end up separated from their group of friends, and they end up in a body of water, seemingly having to like fall in in the water after drinking too much.

But then you kind of look a little more into that and it doesn't really make sense. So I mean so far, well seems like it could be, it could be, but I haven't told you anything of the importance of it. So sadly enough in the US alone, there are 3,500 to 4,000 drowning deaths per year, and men make up 80% of that number. Wow. Isn't that crazy? That's interesting. I know.

So, it's really not that uncommon. But what's weird about the victims that will focus on, and those thought to be associated with this strange thing that's going on, is that they're found in the... When they're found in the water, things don't end up between like where they were supposed to be, how long they would have had to travel from point A to where they supposedly fell in the water,

and even like the level of decomposition of their bodies. The level of decomposition in these different cases that I'm gonna present to you is bananas. So let's get into it. That's what I'm really interested in here. Yeah, and I'll tell you. So in 1997, there was a guy, Patrick McNeil. He was one of the promising men, unfortunately,

found dead. His body was in the East River in New York City. He had been going to Fordham University. It was his junior year, and everything was going really well. All of his professors absolutely loved him. They thought that he did great work. He had a really good group of friends, and he was known to be someone who really wanted

to put their best foot forward at all times. His friends used to make fun of him and be like, okay, are you ready to go out yet? You pick your outfit, do you look good? Do you smell good? You look great, honey. Your hair is perfectly golfed. Okay, let's go. Love it.

What if you were trafficked into a cult over shot nine times, or fell in love with a vampire, or went into a minor surgery and woke up one week later, paralyzed? What would you do? I'm Whit Missildine, the creator of this is actually happening, a podcast from Wondry that brings you extraordinary true stories of life-changing events, told by the people who lived them. From a young man that dooms his entire future with one choice, to a woman who survived a notorious serial killer, you'll hear their first-person account of how they overcame remarkable circumstances.

Each episode is an exploration of the human spirit and personal discovery. These haunting accounts sound like Hollywood movies, but I assure you this is actually happening. Followed this is actually happening wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wundery app. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my podcast Killer Psychie Daily, which you can find exclusively on Amazon Music. I share a quick 10-minute rundown every week day on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds you read about in the

news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and a criminal profiler. On Killer Psychie Daily, I'll give you my expert perspective on cases like the mysterious New York City drugings, Breaking Down Lori Vallow, a.k.a. Mommy Doom stays motives, and what drove Caitlin Armstrong to murder? I'll also bring on expert guests who add even more insight into these criminal minds. I promise you won't regret adding these 10 minutes to your morning routine. Hey, Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast, Killer Psychie Daily, in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today!

He also had dreams of working for the FBI someday, and he was definitely smart enough to make that happen. Wow. Yeah. Crazy. I know. So on February 16th, 1997, Patrick and some friends decided to go out for the night. The bar that the Fordham kids love to go to around that time was called the Dapper Dog. And it was in Manhattan.

The Dapper Dog. The Dapper Doge. So that's where they decided to go out that night. Pretty quickly though, Patrick was like not feeling great and he ended up having to run to the bathroom and get sick and he ended up throwing up in the bathroom. But it was weird because he hadn't really drank that much especially for how sick he was getting

and how disoriented he was becoming. Now once he finished throwing up in the bathroom, he found his friends and let them know that he was gonna head back to campus. It's really unclear to me why no one was like, hey, I'll go with you. Yeah, like you're obviously sick. Yeah, and I did read that he was waiting outside

for one friend to come out, but they just like never came out. So he was like, okay, I guess I'll just go on my way. So plenty of people saw him after he left and believed that he was making his way to the subway. He was still throwing up like on the street and was very unsteady on his feet. He was falling into cars. He was like stumbling around. I really don't understand why nobody helped him. Yeah. One witness saw him walking and noticed that a previously double parked van was slowly trailing him. Uh-huh.

And at one point Patrick actually fell to the ground. And when he did this, the van came to a complete stop. And then he got back up and got started going on his way and so did the van. Which is super weird. Now is this one eyewitness saying this? Yeah. Okay. I just wanted to know.

Which is fair. Yeah. So when he got back up, he made his way to the end of the street to turn on to East 90th and when he turned the band did too And that was the last time anyone saw Patrick McNeil alive again. I mean sounds creepy sounds super creepy very creepy Now allegedly witnesses all one man and one woman in the van and Actually, we're able to get part of their license plate. Oh. So that's super exciting, right?

Very. Yeah, like you could probably do something with that. I'm excited. If you wanted to spend the money on it, but the head of the Missing Persons department didn't really want to do. It's called a law man search. And what that would have done is like,

basically complete the plate number by using all the possible combinations and matching it up to. Like a van. Like a car car a making model exactly but it would cost like $1200 at the time and he didn't want to spend money on it so he just didn't just didn't yeah why do that why why solve a potential murder case that's that's not what people want no but it's like people don't want things solved no no we want. It's so aggrifing. We want the mystery.

Yeah, exactly. That's what we know. So it would be terrible. It would be two months before Patrick McNeil's body was discovered in the East River in New York City on April 7th, 1997. Now, they were able to recover his body near the Owlshead Water Pollution Control Plant,

which was more than 12 miles away from his last known location. Now the fact that he was found in that specific location didn't really make a lot of sense with the way that the currents were flowing, but honestly that was like the least sinister thing about the discovery of his body. Here's what we're gonna into. I'm ready for the sinister. Yeah, situation. Usually drowning victims, as you know, are found in the water face down. Like most of the time, like there are obviously things happen where it's not always like that.

Absolutely. Now this was one of those cases. Patrick was recovered on his back, but there was no evidence of levity in his back area in the autopsy photos. So I guess you could say at the same time that the conditions in the water maybe like flipped him around in that position, which is fair, but wait a second because there's more. Patrick seemed to be like really intoxicated while walking down the street,

like he was literally stumbling. But then when they tested his blood alcohol concentration, it turned out to be 0.16, which like, okay, and the body, And because the body naturally produces more alcohol in the process of decomposition, it was fair to assume that his actual blood alcohol content was .12. Okay. So, like, that's not super drunk at all. That's about six drinks,

which for me and you would be like super duper drunk, but he was 195 pounds and six feet tall. So he was like a big dude. So obviously, it's definitely drunk, but not drunk enough to be in the state that he was in. I mean, six drinks to me sounds like a lot of drinks. See me too, but it's like he's super duper tall. And then I think about going out with my guys friends, and I'm like, they'll throw back

like three beers and a couple hours. It's hard to judge, because it's always based on like weight and you know right so yeah that is weird. It sounds like a lot but I don't know maybe some of our dudes are like taller women can weigh in here. Where am I dudes at? Where am I dudes who are tall women at? Yeah because I think about it and I'm like John's like six foot three or four and that I think that would probably not. I've never seen him like that drunk. No, like falling over throwing up and everything.

Yeah. I don't know, it just seems weird. So a lot of people were like, was he drugged? Yeah. It seems like there was something a little like a kind of like a roofie situation there. Yeah. Now, it also seemed as though there was some kind of ligature tied around Patrick's neck at one point because the medical examiner notes in the autopsy

report, quote, circumferentially around the neck, there is a pattern which consists of numerous vertical lines evenly spaced about one-sixteenth of an inch apart around his neck and a pattern as if to suggest some type of binding. That's interesting. So it's like, okay, then why was it rolled in accidently? That's very interesting. Super, super weird. The autopsy also notes that there was severe blackening around the head in the upper torso, and the medical examiner surmised that this was because of not only advanced decomp, but also an extended period of exposure to the elements.

However, a team of retired detectives and one doctor disagree. Okay. Now, Kevin Ganon, Anthony Tony Duarte, Mike Dunnevin and Dr. Lee Doc Gilbertson make up the global death investigations team. Bad ass. They're so bad ass. They all agree that after looking at the autopsy and having another set of super professionalized look

at it too, that the head to waste blackening on Patrick's body was due to burning, not exposure of the elements. Really? Because the areas where the skin was blackened were not what you would expect from an exposure to the elements and especially not water. Usually when bodies are found in water, as you well know, they're bloated. And the blackened skin that was on Patrick had contracted. Okay.

So which was like pretty weird, which is like usually do flake. More than go and heat. Yes, exactly. Now, Dr. Serial Wect agreed with the team's theory, and he's like a super, super famous pathologist, that the blackening skin was in fact due to burning to the point of skin charring. Wow. Wow. Yeah.

And together they all agreed that it looked as though Patrick had been bound by his neck to a chair while being burned and that he was alive when this occurred. What the fuck? In sane. Now, there wasn't a lot of charring around the back area, so they believed that his back was pushed against the chair when this all happened. Oh, okay. And there was like lower red marbling around like where his pants would have been, which is a sign of like it kind of stopped there because the pants was just going right to that point.

Exactly. So like what? Like that's absolutely terrifying. Oh, shit. Now they noted something else of importance too. If the top portion of Patrick's body was black because of environmental factors and decomposition, then why were his feet not equally decomposed? Well, that was gonna be my question. It's like, but why wouldn't the lower part?

Why wouldn't the lower part be super decomposed? I mean, that's the part that's- Because your feet are exposed. Exposed in the water. And over a period of like 50 days, he's been in this water, like you're gonna have slippage, right? Oh, yeah.

No signs of slippage whatsoever, which is not only uncommon, just like essentially unheard of in cases, like this where a body has been in the water for that long. This one sounds like murder. So if that's the case, was Patrick on land for some of the time that he was missing? Yes. Seems like it. That would certainly seem to be the case, especially because there were fly eggs found in the groin area of Patrick's body. Now four doctors, including the pretty famous

forensic pathologist, like I said, Dr. Serial Wekt and Dr. Richard Jantz, who is from the body farm. Yep. They agreed that it's highly unlikely these eggs were laid while Patrick's body was in the water. Oh, yeah. It would have been far too cold in New York in the middle of February. And the water would have been even colder.

Oh, 100%. So it just, it wouldn't have happened. And especially from the body farm, they know. Like, of course. Yeah, of course. They know they test all the different conditions. They've seen every single different condition. And it's like, so for them to say that,

to be like, yeah, no, I don't think that's how that worked. Like, you can trust that. And they were two of four doctors that all agreed, but like, no. Yeah, it just, that doesn't, that doesn't drive with me. Doesn't drive or vibe. It doesn't do any of it. Now, Kevin Ganon actually was one of the original detectives

on Patrick's case back in 97. And he is the one who set out on this mission to figure out what would happen to Patrick because he promised his parents, Pat Seanyer, and Jackie McNeil that he would find out who murdered their son and bring this person to justice. Those poor people. And he has spent the past 24 years trying to keep that promise

to find out not only what happened to Patrick, but these countless other young men that I've been talking about. Yeah. Because they're all dying under pretty similar super suspicious circumstances. Now unfortunately, Patrick's debts still remains listed as an accidental drowning to this day.

How? I have no idea. Like, the ligature thing really is like, the ligature thing makes absolutely no sense. And for the medical examiner of the pathologist to say in the thing that it appears he has been bound by his neck. Right. And then to list it in accidental drought. Like what? The only thing that I can think of is it's like he was in the water as he thinking that like he got like caught up. Like something? Because immediately when you first brought that up, that's what that was.

That's your first thought. The devil's thought. The kid and me was like, well, if he's been in the water a long time, maybe he got caught up in something like a net or something. Exactly. And it pressed into his neck and it made it look like that. Needs, and then the currents took him out and that's what I'm talking about. But then you, sorry, just like through my computer.

But I'm like talking with my hands. But then you have that and then you have everything else. When you put all put all it's like when you put all the rest of the puzzle pieces together, it doesn't make sense. Yeah, just the, you know, the darkening on the top half of the body and that it's like no slip-washed instead of expanded, no slippage in the water for that long. I mean, for these experts to be saying like it like this is burns, not just plain old decom. Right, that's interesting. Right, in the fact that the body wasn't bloated because I feel like you and I have talked about like a couple like bodies that have been found in water.

I mean, like think about howling, aling's worth, yeah. Like she became soap, she was in there for so long. And it's like of course temperature Like can can mess around with things especially like Decomposition really is dependent on temperature and you know this was in the Middle of like the freezing part of the of the time of year right, but I don't know But just what the other factors. It's just like and then then the fly, the eggs, the eggs, that's interesting.

That was the part that like sent me. That's very interesting. And in part two, we're gonna get to like another kind of like insect. We're gonna look a little more into that. And you're gonna be, I already told you some of it, but I tell you all of it, and you're gonna be like, okay, I'm convinced. Okay, what? Was there any mention, and maybe there was, because I know they don't release everything, was there any mention of hair, and was it charred? I didn't see any mention of his hair, and what I looked through, because I couldn't find the autopsy report for him. I know, I'm dying to read it.

That's exactly what I want to know. But I can answer that in part two, if I find the answer. We'll try to find it, because I'm interested to see if the hair gave any kind of indication of fire as well. It's funny that, well, fire for sure, obviously that would happen,

but it's funny that you mentioned hair because that comes into play in one of the next victims. Oh, that's funny. Yeah, that was weird. That was a really good segment. Look at me just segueing for you. Yeah, thank you so much. You're welcome.

Now, just one year after Patrick's body was found, another young man was discovered dead, having drowned after a night out with his friends. And the creepiest part is that he was found in almost the exact same location where Patrick was found a year earlier. This man was Lawrence, he went by Larry Andrews. He was 22 years old and he was from Brewster, New York.

Now, like most of the victims we'll talk about, he was a young college guy with a bright future ahead of him. He had taken the train into New York City, excuse me, he had taken the train into the city on New Yers Eve in 1997 to go out and celebrate with his friends and times square. At some point they all watched the ball drop, but after that he got separated from them. And people did see him in a bar near Grand Central Station and said that he appeared to be drunk, but not incoherent. So strange that just like in Patrick's case, Larry's body was found about 12 miles

from where he was last seen. Hmm. That is the first. The same location where they were found, but like different locations before they were. That's really interesting. But like just about 12 miles. Well, same dump site.

Yeah, super weird. Now, Kevin Ganon and Susan Andrews, Larry's mother agreed that Larry's death was no accident and definitely not a suicide. It was far too similar to Patrick's case and Larry was not known to be suicidal at all. His sister was just about to get married. So he was looking forward to that

and he also had upcoming plans to go on a skiing trip. Now, the more and more Kevin started looking into these cases, he was realizing that there were more than just similarities between the victims, but also the areas in which they were found. In many cases, smiley faces were being graffiti nearby where the bodies were discovered. And you can argue, again, devil's advocate, that smiley faces are like super, super common. I mean, I could go outside right now and probably find five. Yeah. But it definitely felt like more than a coincidence

to detective Ganon at least. It's interesting, say the least. It is. And you know what? It's not at all of these sites. So it is important to note, like I'm going to be totally transparent with you here. Because the smiley face is a little bit much

in my opinion. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it's something to take note of. Yeah, I'm gonna take note of it every time it's there, but it adds an element of like theater. It does. It does, sure. And I think that's why people

like, crunch onto it. Which I get, I know we all want to like see that, like, you know, oh, there's a smiley face at all the crimes. Right. But who knows? Yeah, you never know. Yeah.

Now, we're going to talk about how reliable this team is, because obviously you want to know that people investigating this are like in it for the right reasons. So Kevin Ganon and all the members of his team are very reliable sources. Kevin worked on the NYPD for 20 years, and during his time on the force, he received over a hundred medals,

including two medals of valor for heroism in the line of duty. So he's a badass motherfucker. He also was in charge of the Bronx Homicide Task Force for three years. Damn. Tony Duarte, another part of this team, was in law enforcement for a total of 21 years.

He also received many medals for things such as excellence in police duty. Very, very reliable person. Mike Dunnevin worked with Kevin and Tony for 20 years as well. He has also worked on hundreds of homicide cases. He actually worked on the elite special anti-crack unit of the organized crime control bureau and fun fact not like fun fact But he was a first responder in 9-11. Wow. Yeah, so again very reliable And the final member of this team is Dr. Lee Gilbertson who goes by doc, which I love He has a PhD in sociology with a focus in gangs and substance abuse He is a certified gang specialist

and also a three time recipient of the Frederick Milton Thrasher Award. He won it in 2002, 2005 and 2008. And he is also an executive editor for the Journal of Gang Research. All right. So there are their qualifications just right up front. Now, damn. Yeah, there are a bunch of right up front. Now, damn.

Yeah, there are a bunch of bad asses. You got to watch the documentary that I'm going to talk about in a second. Oh, yeah. Because in 2008, this team decided to go public with their theory for the first time about the smiley face killers. By that point, they had about 40 cases across the US that they believed to have been connected, although, like I said, now there are hundreds. They believed that there was a gang of serial killers working together across about 25

major cities, which is scarier enough are mainly on the East Coast. They're not awesome, and of course they believe that they're targeting young, smart, athletic, and typically white college men. It seems that the M.O. was to somehow pick one of these men while they're out drinking with friends and secretly drug them. Once they're separated from the group, they would be kidnapped. And at this point, they believe likely held

for a period of days and probably tortured to some degree, obviously based on what we spoke about with Patrick, and then disposed in a body of water. The gang would then spray paint sometimes, a smiley face nearby, presumably to tag the area, being like, hey, like other gang members, like I did this one here, I guess. Okay, kind of thing. Yeah.

And in 2018, like I was just saying, a docu-series premiered on oxygen called smiley face killers, the hunt for justice. Holy shit. Stop whatever you're doing. I bought the whole thing on Amazon. It was like $11. Like, Alvin Moe, $11 to watch it. I'm just kidding. I feel like I won't. But the series followed the team around to different cities where each of the victim's families was

interviewed and then the evidence was gone through again with a fine-tooth comb usually showing that the cause of death did not line up with what the body and other evidence told the investigators. And one of Kevin Ganon's major points, and points in this whole thing is that quote, the lack of decomposition on the bodies is inconsistent with the period of time that the victims are missing. Yeah, it's a huge part of this.

That's the big question mark here. It's a huge part of this. And after watching the series, I was on their side and I went further down the rabbit hole. And now I'm honestly just like moderately terrified So my my thing here that I'm gonna like hang on to yeah is the only questions that will like linger in my brain about this Is like where are they bringing them and holding them raise there needs to be a place absolutely and then why okay? See like what why is the biggest question?

And I think why is the biggest question that like nobody's really answered? I mean, I saw like different theories on like Reddit and like just like little like crime posts and stuff that are interesting, but I don't want to get into because obviously I have no idea. I have no basis to share that. You know what I mean? Like everybody can speculate what they want.

Yeah, so honestly, I mean, it is interesting to go through and kind of check out the M.O.s. If you wanna do the, or excuse me, the motivation, if you wanna look at that on your own, but. But I think it's like the, because if they are doing this, if this is like a big ring of people, it's like, whoa, first of all, and then it's second of all, it's like,

where is this happening? Like where is this torture? Where is the headquarters? Where are they holding these men? You know, I need somebody to give me a place or like a probable place that this is happening. It's serious. Because it has to be somewhere.

But here's the thing, it's across 25 major cities. It could be fucking anywhere. Well, then. And there's multiple places, I'm sure. That's the other thing, because it's like, if you're holding a grown-ass man for like several days to weeks, torturing them, like you've gotta have a pretty good place to do that.

Absolutely. That's like a way from a lot of people. That's like very... Well, and I think that's another scary part of this is that they're targeting men. And a lot of these men were very athletic. Yeah, like they're tall. Yeah, like I just said that one of them was six foot tall

and 195 pounds. Yeah, I mean, he just said that one of them was six foot tall and 195 pounds. Yeah, I mean, he could take you for sure. Yeah. And a lot of them are built and like, it just, you're like, why? How? I don't understand. Yeah, and obviously it's not a typical, you know, victim profile for most serial killers. Usually serial killers do go after women, you know?

And so it's interesting to see like this giant possible ring. It really is. That is only targeting these like, you know, pretty like, you know, middle-class white dudes. Yeah, like it's just so weird. It really like doesn't make any sense.

And very strange. I think that's another part of why people like to kind of hold on to like the smiley face killer theory is that like it freaks you out because you're That's weird and like there aren't like answers really so you can just continue to go further and further down a rabbit hole like the first one Like to me that seems like murder. It seems like murder with all the Obviously, eyewitnesses are pretty unreliable. It's a little hard. Yeah, so like depending on the amount of people that said that that van was following them, and the fact that they had a partial license plate that tells me someone saw something.

Exactly. So that's interesting. Something enough to write down a license plate in a way. Exactly. How many fucking license plates do you write down? Yeah. So, it's like that is interesting. It is.

Well, I think the second one is pretty interesting, too, or excuse me, third now. So if we're going chronologically, which I'm going to try to do, then Brian Walsian is who we should talk about next. Brian was a 21 year old college student in Chicago. His mother Stephanie says that Brian was the best thing she ever did. Oh my God. Which ruined me. It's the story in my heart. He was a super bright kid, like all the others. He was making honors in his classes and he was on the Dean's list. He was a finance major and he was really good at all things money related. His mom said that he liked to spend her money instead, though. I thought it was just like a cute little comment.

Who doesn't? Now, a major red flag here. Brian wasn't really a drinker. Like he didn't really drink a lot. Okay. So when his body was discovered washed up on a beach in Gary, Indiana, 30 miles away from where he was believed to have entered the water

on Michigan. And law enforcement claimed that this was an accident fueled by drinking. Everyone was like, no, it wasn't. Like, that doesn't make any sense. Now, Brian, just like Larry Andrews had gone out with friends for New Year's. So we have two New Year's cases here, which is a little creepy, except this one was in 1999. New Year's tends to be the time when people get wild and they get drunk and accidents happen. I'm just saying. No, that's absolutely fair. That's absolutely fair. No, it's true, you're right. And I think it's good to have me being so like, like hell yeah, I know this is happening.

And like you being like in the middle. I'm gonna wait and see. I can see, I can see, I can see both sides. I think each person listening is probably like team a laner to you. I should miss one. Or just team neither of us. I guess that you're in the middle.

There you go. It's not real, but in the real. I disagree with you. So Brian's best friend Nick was out with him that night. And he said, Brian only had a couple of drinks. Now, I will be devil's advocate, so I don't have to listen to you do it. They were drinking Long Island ice teas, and we all know that those will fuck you.

Because those are different every time you come. Yeah, you never know what you're going to get with the Long Island. You get the Long Island straight up ice tea, or you could get lava from a volcano. Literally. So, you have no idea. I've like gotten, I've like, dided gone to heaven and come all the way back multiple times when drinking Long Islands. Oh, I've seen the Nothar worlds. Yeah, I've seen, I've like, died a gun to happen and like, come all the way back multiple times when drinking among islands.

Oh, I've seen the Nothar world. Yeah, I've seen some shit. But again, he's like, he's a taller dude. Like, you know, you know, we metabolize this thing a little differently than you and me. For sure. So everyone in their group of friends also pretty much had the same amount to drink. So at least we can look at that as well. Okay.

And hopefully we can just assume that they all had the same bartender before you even said it. So one step ahead of you. You can just like sense it. I can. I can. I'm gonna stop looking at you. Now the only difference between Brian and everybody else was that Brian got extremely ill,

like Patrick McNeil, like very ill, very ill. To the point of falling over same thing. He left the bar with his friends, thank God that they left with him, and they headed back, they were actually staying at a hotel that night. So while they were driving back,

Brian got sick in the car. And when they got back to the hotel, his friends went up to get some cleaning supplies to obviously clean up, but the door man would not let Brian back in the hotel because he was so, he believed he was so drunk, obviously. It was then somehow, it's really unclear how this all happened, but somehow Brian got separated from his friends in that moment.

And multiple people. Why? I think they went up to get the cleaning supplies. Maybe he wandered away. And I think he just wandered off. Exactly. Or maybe got sick. Or was kneeling over to get sick

and somebody grabbed him. Okay. I don't know. That's the whole point of this, nobody knows. Is that we have no fucking clue? Exactly. Multiple people witnessed him throwing up and stumbling down the street.

I'm again confused. Why nobody stopped to help this boy. But again, after that night, it would be a full 77 days before anyone saw Brian again. That's a lot of days. It's about three, that's like two and a half months, almost three. It's a lot of days. Now Nick, who was out with Brian the night before, called his mom Stephanie the next day to see

if Brian was there because he hadn't returned back to the dorms. And Stephanie right away knew something was off. And later, when she was notified that Brian was missing, she, this lady is a badass. She started searching right away knew something was off. And later when she was notified that Brian was missing, she, this lady is a badass. She started searching right away. She was going into the city to hand out flyers of Brian and just looking for any lead she could. That kills me.

She, at first, the police wouldn't take Brian's disappearance seriously, probably because it like happened on New Year's and he's in college. And yeah, they just don't take things seriously, guess. So she got there to a ton of people from her church to show up at the station like demanding that something be done about this. And this is horrible. Brian's father had passed away the year before in his sleep. So I can't imagine and then to deal with your son being missing for two and a half months like I can't imagine guy

He was too. I'm looking up these men. They're all super handsome. He is super handsome They all are yeah, so like I like I said though I can't imagine what she was going through like she just lost her husband and now she's lost her son But she has no idea where he is like it's that kind of grief where you're like you don't even know what you're You don't even know what yeah, you don't know what to grieve for. Some people, I'm like, why does some people just get hammered with that kind of stuff?

Like, well, you care about families that just like never catch a break. Catch a break, exactly. But I am happy because she had like, our church around her and she had a network like helping her through all of this. I'm happy that she had that. Well. I'm happy that she had that. Oh.

Now when Ryan's body did wash up on that beach like I said in Gary and Deanna, 77 days later, there were a lot of questions to be asked. For one thing, why did it take so long for his body to get there? Why was he only moderately decomposed after being in the water for 77 days? And how did he end up in the water in the first place? Now, if Brian took the route that the original investigators believed that he did to get to this point in the water, he would have had to cross 10 lanes of traffic and each at like one, four of them were going one way and then like a bunch of them were going another way. Or he would have had to navigate an underground tunnel

and looking at the state he was in, I don't think either two of those things would have happened. Yeah, that just seems like when people wander away drunk, they don't wander like 65 miles away. Like they wander like a little ways away. Exactly. They can take themselves in trouble if there's like a body water near what? Right, of course. But that seems like a lot ways away exactly themselves in trouble if this like a body water near what right of course

But that seems like a lot it's super weird and it's worth mentioning that Brian wasn't really familiar with the Chicago area So it does make sense that he could get lost but like to get this lost whoa Yeah, and even if he did excuse me even if they did do this and he fell in the water Why did he wash up 30 miles away after such a long period of time? Yeah, now. Interesting. The police sergeant, Sergeant Fazika, was on the case originally,

and he appeared on that oxygen series that I talked about, and he was talking to the team, re-investigating everything. And he said that in his 29 years on the force, it was the first time that a body had washed up on the shore. Really? Yes. And he said that Brian looked like he had been missing for a week.

Now this is like a police sergeant who's been on the force for 29 years. Is that an end date? And he looks like he had been missing for a week. Yes. Now of course, it is possible that over the course of those days, Brian's body could have floated the 30 miles over to Indiana from Chicago.

But realistically and actually statistically, it should have happened a lot sooner. Now on the series that I've been talking about, they were able to go over all of the previous bodies found in like this area, and they were able to see that in that 30 mile stretch of water, all those bodies that were there, the longest it took a body to get even near the proximity of where Brian's body was found was 36 hours. I thought, even if you would say 36 days, I was gonna be like, that's a lot of days. 36 hours was the longest.

The longest. And he was 77 days. And he was 77 days. Like this is essentially impossible. That's that's that's unprecedented. It's absolutely it's truly. Now again, let's look at the blood alcohol concentration. Let's look at it.

So Brian's was reported at 0.084, which for reference is almost sober enough to operate. I was just going to say that's low. Now obviously, and this is where it gets a little bit confusing because he had thrown up. So a lot, a lot, like a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. And we can assume like, like I said, a pretty good amount because of whatever he drank, like came back up. However, we don't know how soon after he started, we don't know how soon he started throwing up after he had drank. So we don't know how much of that already metabolized, exactly, thank you.

You're welcome. Now, if the concentration was that low, but he was so clearly ill, it's not and out of this world assumption that he had been drugged. For sure. Clearly somebody slipped something in his drink. Yeah.

But unfortunately, during the autopsy, they didn't test to see for those particular kind of drugs. Like, you have to test for those. Yeah, it's like a specific order. And they didn't, because they just, they thought this was an accident, unfortunately. So let's get into a Linus territory a little bit here. Let's do it. Cause I'm going to need you.

I'm excited. I tried my best to like look into all of this, but I was like, you know what, I know that I have her. So somebody used her. Now, Brian's back showed fixed levity, meaning that he was laying on his back for a good portion of the time after he died, and probably when he died? Yeah, probably. Okay.

He was at least, maybe when he died, it's more that he was spending the most time laying on his back after death. Okay. Because it's usually it's after death that it starts to set in. Levity starts to set in. Yeah. Because everything settles where the lowest point of gravity is. Okay.

Thank you. You're welcome. Now, from what I've read, it is very unlikely that a victim of drowning would show a fixed levity in general, but especially on the back area. Yeah, okay. Now, Dr. Lee Gilbertson further confirmed that when he said, quote, this is inconsistent with a body in turbulent water like Lake Michigan.

He should have had levity on all sides, not fixed to one side. Because that would indicate that he literally did not move. Like he was just starting the levity process. He was on the entire time, the entire time and never even like bobbed or anything around, where like any kind of water, which in the water, I just, I don't know. And again, this is the winter time and it's Lake Michigan. Like, yeah, it's not like it's like glass. No, I mean, he washed up on a beach. Like, we all see the tide going in and out.

Exactly. He would have moved even just in that moment. Yeah, you know? I would imagine you would see it more than on their back, but I would think so and so a doctorly. Well, there you go. Doc. Now, there was also no fluid found in Ryan's lungs at all.

Yeah, that's interesting. All of his organs were well intact, which being in the water for 77 days, I would assume that your organs maybe get bloated or something. I don't really know a lot about what the organs, what the insides do in water, but the no water in the lungs is very impressive.

Super weird. And there was no sand found in the esophagus or the stomach. Now, when Dr. C. Rolect, Madood, went over that particular bit of information, he said that it was, he believed it was highly unlikely that Brian entered that water alive and drowned. Yeah. He agreed with the team that Brian was likely murdered

somewhere else before he ever entered that water. And Dr. Gilbert's and believes that when Brian's body was found, he had only been dead for about 36 hours. Wow. Yeah. Because yeah, it's like, especially the levity thing. So it seems to me like he was lying on his back on a flat surface. Yeah.

After he was killed, the levity fixed, and then they threw him in the water. Exactly. After that was already done. So the only reason that I said that the hair stuff was gonna come back is because a small patch of his hair was like missing, like clearly I'd been like, like, like, like just gone. Like just gone.

Mechanically removed or something? Yeah, like just gone. Wow. So which is weird. That is weird. But they didn't get like super into that and I couldn't find like a ton on it. So I didn't know if that would happen

after 36 hours in the water. I don't know if that would happen after 36 hours on the water. I don't know why that would happen. I don't know. Unless there was like scalp slippage, but yeah, it doesn't. But it doesn't sound like there was. Yeah, that's strange. Now, the good thing about this particular case

is that the Sergeant Fizika's agreed to reopen Brian's case. Oh, good. So they reopened it back in 2018. I haven't seen anything that's come of it like yet, but I mean, at least it's a good. I'm glad they're reopened. And they're looking into new possibilities.

Now, the next case that I want to talk about and probably who we're going to end on, I think, is Luke Coleman. Okay. Luke was a 21 year old college student going to school in La Crosse, Wisconsin. Well, I don't know if you heard that, the door just slammed because of the wind.

What? His case is like really eerie to me because he and his parents had actually talked about all of the drownings that had been going on in that area when Luke was deciding where to go to school. I hate when that happens in a case. When a victim is like talking about the other victims before they become a victim. It's like, and that happens not once,

but twice in this case. That was the first example. And just definitely worth noting, LaCrosse actually has the most cases associated with the Smiley Case Killers. Huh. Smiley Face Killers. This is Smiley Case Killers. Autocraft.

With over 20 mysterious quote unquote, drownings. So there's over 20 there that they believe are in. Smiley Face. We decide it. We decide it. We'll get into those. Yeah, we'll get into those. So there's over 20 there that they believe are in Charlie face. Luke decided in Boston, right? Oh yeah, and we'll get into those. Yeah, and we have a bunch of Boston. We have about 12 in Boston.

I was gonna say, I thought it was more, it was like a dozen. Yeah. Now, but Luke decided to go anyways. He didn't like water anyway, so he said, I'm not even gonna be around the water, like I'm not gonna slip and fall in. And once he was actually talking to his friends and he said, quote, you'd have to be a dummy to drown in the river because when you see the river,

you know you're going the wrong way. Which is true that you were going the wrong way. Not that you'd have to be a dummy. Not that you'd have to be a dummy, because obviously if I was talking to him, I'd be like, yes, but the whole story of these men is that they are very disoriented and not with it when they enter the water. But at this point, I don't even think that, like, but the whole story of these men is that they are very disorganized and not with it with my

answer the water. But at this point, I don't even think that like the smiley face killer thing was like that, like the details for all of them. Nobody was really talking about it that much. It's only really in recent years. It's crazy because it's been happening since 1997, but it's only really in recent years that we've heard a lot of them. It's been happening almost the entire life. Wow. Yeah, super crazy. Now it is true that the Mississippi River is in the complete opposite direction of all the It's been a lot of been. It's been a lot of been. Almost the entire life. My entire life. Wow. Yeah, super crazy. That's nuts. Now it is true that the Mississippi River is in the complete opposite direction of all

the bars and the way that you would go if you were going back to campus or like heading back in for the night. But that only makes things like super stranger. Yeah. Because if everyone going to school there or in the area knows that, then they probably would avoid that area. That's true. Meaning like these are accidental drownings.

Allegedly. Allegedly. In my opinion. Now Luke avoided that particular area himself because like I said he didn't like water. But after he went missing in September of 2006, that is where his body was found just like the countless other men that had died there before him. That is so spooky. So creepy. Not only one, but two instances where he was talking about it. And his parents were literally worried for him to go there. Oh, that stresses me. Like they were like, just be smart. And like, oh my God, I freaking love his parents.

Oh. They were on the documentary. And just all the parents on the documentary, I just want to envelop them in a group hug and never let them go. They're so heartbreaking. These are such like young guys. They're such young guys.

And these parents just seem like, it's like how we talked about in the Heather Bish case, the Molly Bish case when we were talking to Heather. It's like you feel connected to these families because they're your everyday family. They could be your family. They feel like your family. And a lot of these parents in the cases it feels that way. Yeah.

Now Luke was a star basketball player at the time and he was going out, that was just like I was saying that he was and he was going out to celebrate October Fest with his friends. Those two things don't correlate, but I wanted to point out that he was really good at basketball. He was also a good basketball player. Yes, because it's worth mentioning, too, another athlete. A tall guy, an athletic guy? Yes. Now at one point or another, he got separated from the group. No one is really exactly sure how. One of his friends who appeared in the documentary said that a group of them were leaving the bar that they were at and he was staying there with one other guy. Okay.

Who he was acquaintances with. Okay. Which I got into. Cause I'm always like, how are they getting separated from all their friends? Like, you think about it? And that's been the first part of so many cases I've done. I know.

It really has. And every single time I'm always like, how the hell? How does that happen? How does that happen? How does that happen? But also I love you, but you're not really a party animal. No, no. Which like is not an insult.

No. I was just like, but like I could see, like you know what I mean? Like, yeah. I could see me getting separated from my friends. And I think like it's, I would never let any of my friends get. Yeah. Go get away from me. So like,

but you know what? Actually now that I think about it, I've put myself in a position multiple times where I was like, I've separated, I've personally separated myself from my friends and gone to do something different. Yeah, what's up with that? It's not smart, because I know. It's not a true crime podcast,

but those days are gone, anyway. They're behind you. But back to this. Now, they found Luke's body in the Mississippi River and promptly ruled it in accidental drowning. Excuse me, I skipped over something. He got separated from the group and it was three days later that his body was found. So his was found pretty quickly. The body showed defensive and offensive wounds and there was some kind of abrasion to his forehead and small scratches that the initial investigators called travel abrasions.

Now the markings on Luke's forehead weren't exactly consistent with being travel abrasions though, because what they meant by this was that basically while he was traveling for lack of a better term down the river, his face came into contact with small rocks on the bottom of the river or other objects that would have left him with scratches. Yeah, but the problem in Luke's case is that the abrasions to his face were going in different directions. small rocks on the bottom of the river or other objects that would have left him with scratches. Yeah. But the problem in Luke's case is that the abrasions to his face were going in different directions. And when you're flowing down a river, you're typically going one way. That's true. So that's just like a little thing.

But your body could bob a little. Yeah, for sure. You know. Now, the other thing is that the defensive and offensive wounds were explained away because there was a rumor of an altercation near the last bar that Luke was seen that night. This altercation was to have gone down next to the bar in an alleyway. Unfortunately though, this is like another thing. No one knows exactly what happened because again, he got separated from his friend group

and the original investigators just kind of were like, yeah, like we don't know. So what happened? Yeah. Now, the abrasion on Luke's head was actually brought by the new investigators to a man named William Moore. Now, William Moore is a forensic toolmark analyst and Dr. Gilbertson explained that what they were hoping to do was identify what made the mark on Luke's forehead.

Now remember, there's a mark and there's scratches. So we're now talking about the mark. So got this. William Moore's professional opinion is that the abrasion on Luke's head is of a boot print. And what we're seeing is that someone most likely pinned down Luke and held him there with like the toe of his boot.

And when you see them place the imprint of like what the shoe would look like over the thing or the abrasion on his head, you're like, how did I not see that to begin with? Like that absolutely is a boot. Let's see if you can maybe find a picture of it. It's crazy. Now when Kevin and his team were re-investigating, they also found out that the band members playing at the bar that night had actually been interviewed by police in the original investigation. And one of the guys in the band got into an altercation with another guy, who I guess we could assume may have been Luke,

for like peeing near his band equipment while he was packing up his van. The band members were actually asked to bring their van in so that the police could kind of check it out and get to know them. And a cadaver dog responded to a scent near the rear passenger compartment. Ooh, you wanna know what was down about that?

Nothing. They just let the van go. Are you kidding me? And they like lost all the information. They just, they were just like, well, just let it go. Yeah. Just let it go. It's not, I mean, we don't think it's right.

Yeah, it's not that go. Yeah, it was an accident. What? They just like let the van go. How does that happen? Why would you just not even look into it a little bit more? A little bit more?

The dog responded to it, just take a peek. Right. You could be mine as well, you were there. Exactly. Wow. Now, one of the things that the new investigative team wanted to do was test Luke's clothing for any kind of DNA or anything else

that could lead to answers that maybe was missed the first time around. Yeah. Unfortunately they didn't find any DNA, but they did find tons of fluorescent orange specs on Luke's clothing. Originally only to have been found on the sweatshirt, but upon performing the test again, the specs were also on his jeans. Hmm.

Now, what's creepy about this is that the smiley face painted nearby that's associated with Luke's murder was painted in fulleress and orange paint. Now, like, that's kind of the only smiley face that I'm like, oh, that had something to do with it. That's very interesting. In my personal opinion. And when they tested to see what the specs were, they were able to. And they determined them to be from nail polish, which sometimes is like sold in spray form and used for graffiti. So boom, roasted. Interesting. Now, what? This print, really, you could see that it could look like a

boot print. It looks just like a fucking boot print. I mean, it could maybe be so. I don't know what else it would be because that's not my job. But yeah, I mean, it's a be so, I don't know what else it would be, because that's not my job. But, yeah. I mean, it's a very intense spook print. Yeah. But, like, I mean, it was probably an intense moment where he was holding him down. Yeah. That's the thing. Maybe, it doesn't really look like it moved at all, but maybe he, like, it was like deep

in there or something like that. Yeah. I don't know. Now, there's a couple other strange things about Luke's clothing. For one thing, I mean, he traveled down the Mississippi River for three days, so you would assume he'd be like, covered in mud. You would think so?

Like, absolutely covered in mud, like super duper dirty. But what's weird is that his clothes actually weren't that dirty. And it was much more consistent with only him only having been in the water for about three to 12 hours. So that's like a maximum of one day. So where was he for the rest of the time that he spent missing? And the other thing that they realized was that two of his back belt loops were broken and looked like they'd been like forcefully yanked off. It was like they were still attached to like the top part but I've been broken from the bottom. Like somebody pulled up on them. Like they were like yanked. Now, could whoever was pinning him down have been working with other people who like picked

him up to drag him somewhere else? And that's how they got torn off. It seems like it could happen. I think that seems like it could happen. Is that why else? Yeah, that's interesting. And like it could have happened in the water, but these were the back belt loops and he was traveling face first.

Which like, I don't know, you could argue like the same thing from the beginning that he had caught on something. But it would have had to be pretty forceful. Yeah, so that's super duper weird. And it is consistent with somebody like using the belt loops to like pull them up or something. That's what I think. Yeah.

Now, Kevin went with Patty Holman to share what they had found in their re-investigation in the hopes to have Luke's manner of death change to homicide so that they could reopen the case. I haven't seen any update a past 2019 on whether or not they've been able to reopen this case. I'm dying. I know. This is so frustrating. It really is.

I was just like moving when I said that, so sorry if I was like, it really is. It's coming out of planet. It's crazy. No this is because there's plenty of places where you can be like well this could have happened but then there's plenty of places that you're like what exactly like every time I was watching and I was like okay well if you could explain that and then I was like oh wait you can't explain that yeah especially. And then this something you can explain both ways. Right, but I think the one that like really, really fucks with me is Brian,

because he was in the water for 77 days and looked like he had only been in the water for a week. Yeah, that one's throwing me off. Yeah, like what? It's in, this is just a lot. It's a lot of information. So I'm gonna let you process all of that information before we move on to part two. Before we move on to part two where we're going to talk about four, actually four more cases.

Oh my god. And then I guess I'll find out whether or not you're convinced. I'm very interested. I'm glad I am too. I just, I like don't want this to be over. Like I could research this for years to come. I know I was going to say say I wanna like just keep going and like cover all of them.

It's so interesting. But we would maybe we'll do like a spin-off series. We'll just do a couple more. We'll be like, we're gonna hit a few more. Hey, maybe we could do that for Patreon actually. Yeah, there you go. We'll hit on like all the cases. Yeah, we can find.

I love that. Wow. While guys, in part two, we're gonna see whether or not you agree with me and we're gonna see whether or not you agree with me, and we're gonna talk about four more of these victims, and we'll see you then. So take some time. Chew on it.

Take some time, chew on it. We hope you keep listening to the other episodes, and we hope you keep it weird. But that's it with you. Don't look a little bit more into this while. Yeah, I'm waiting for part two, but bye. Bye, bye. look a little bit more into this while I'm waiting for part two. Bye! Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to morbid, early, and Add Free on Amazon Music.

Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com-survey.