Morbid - Episode 234: The Smiley Face Deaths/Murder Mystery

Episode Date: May 23, 2021

Since 1997 young men have been disappearing for periods of time and then turning up in bodies of water. Upon first glance it’s easy to brush these off as accidents, young men drinking too much and slipping or falling to their deaths: sad but not unheard of. It was in 2008 that Kevin Gannon, Anthony Duarte, Mike Donovan and Dr. Lee Gilbertson presented a theory to the world: What if these cases aren’t accidents at all? What if there is some kind of gang spread across the nation, picking these guys off 1 by 1. Insert the name of the case, The Smiley Face Killers.   Article: Article is offering out listeners fifty dollars off your first purchase of 100 dollars or more. Go to Article.com/morbid and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout HuntAKiller: Right now, you can go to HuntAKiller.com/MORBID and use MORBID, for 20% off your first box. Again, make sure to use CODE MORBID for a 20% discount! ModernFertility: Right now, Modern Fertility is offering our listeners $20 off the test when you go to ModernFertility.com/morbid. BestFiends: Download the 5 star-rated puzzle game, Best Fiends FREE today on the App Store or Google Play.  That’s FRIENDS without the R – Best Fiends! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's ANGI, or download the app today. Hey, weirdos, I'm Elena, and I'm Ash. And you know what this is? Is it creepy? It's morbid. Oh, right, yep, yep, it's more of a good. Yep. Got it. Here we are. Here's a nice one. I still don't know the name. Just kidding.

Sorry, that part too is like a little more delayed than we usually like them to be. Listen, I'm just gonna be up for this video. A bitch had to get a colonoscopy. Okay, there it is. There it is. You know what? Good on you, man. For like three weeks I've been referring to it as a procedure.

And then like, I had to drink the magnesium citrate. And if you follow me on Twitter, you know all about that. And I just, I lost all will to live. That and like, just like privacy. Like I'm just like, I mean, why not? Just let's just be out there and open. I appreciate that. I'm impressed by that.

Thank you. I'm amazed by you. And for anyone wondering, I have IBS. It's fully confirmed in case anybody's wondering. But yeah, that's not a fun procedure. And you know, it takes a, takes a couple days. So, anyways, we decided to let this one go to the end of the week. So that Ash could, you know, get herself back on track. And so, and you know what, here she is, like, oh, oh my, the, the, the, you, because I'd like to think you're, that's a lot. Like, you know, like anybody who's sad, when I'm sure it's not fun, I can imagine. So, you want to know a secret.

I blow dried my hair before. She sure did. In the middle of like my misery, I was like, well, I'm not going to go in there looking shitty. I wore a matching pajama set and like fuzzy slippers. And I was like, hi, I'm here to be colonoscopy'd. None of us would expect any less. I'm sure everybody agrees with me when I say that. And we wouldn't want anything less.

No, we wouldn't want that. But I'm just, you know, good for you for pushing through it. But that's, I'm sure, you know, that's why pushing through it But that's I'm sure you know That's why this part two came a little later than we normally would like it to but obviously they will make up for it There was a big reason None of us are upset so I hope you're not upset And it's worth it. I've said a really good job with this case So honey part two is worth it. Oh, but to do? I know, I'm just feeling so sweet.

This feeling so quiet. No, she's always kind to me. I'm having some Pepsi, I'm feeling sweet. Oh, look at you. That's not what I'm having. No. I'm having a nice, what is it? Raspberry lime seltzer.

There you go. I like to pretend that it's alcohol. Easy on the tummy. Yes, honey. I know that's what we're here for. But yeah, we are in part two, because I don't really think we have any business other than explaining to you why this is like.

No, but we are in part two of the Smiley Face Killers segment. If you will. It's just mayhem, basically. Basically. Because does this ever stop? No, no.

I'm sure we can just continue this for another few years. Yeah, honestly, this could be its own podcast. I'm actually, I wonder if it is already. I know, probably. I wonder if it is. I'm gonna go ahead and look that up and search. And I'll let you know tomorrow.

When we do another episode. Who knows? Maybe, you know, in a year from now, we can just do two more. Yeah, and just, I mean, I hope not. Like, here I am being like, who knows? You see, it's all great. No, I hope not. No, hello, we all hope not. Well, I mean a hope not like here. I am being like who knows? No, great. No. I hope not. No. Hello. We all hope not well

I mean to mom like what already happened exactly because there's And you know what that's what I meant Obviously, it's obviously what I meant. This is morbid late night in case you couldn't tell it is morbid late night is very different for morbid Mornings. Yeah, it's like how like the today show is different than like the Jimmy Kimmel show. Yeah, we're risqué at night. Does Jimmy Kimmel have a show? Yeah, okay. I get the two Jimmy's can change Jimmy Kimmel and Jimmy Fallon. Yeah, he has a show.

All right, there's a lot of Jimmy's. Jimmy, there's some James's, I'm pretty sure at night. Yeah, a lot of James at night. Yeah, but this isn't about that. It's not about the smiley, you should like. Are you sure? One, we talked a lot about,'s at night. Yeah, but this isn't about that. It's not about the smiley face. Are you sure? So in part, one, we talked a lot about, you know, the theory of what's going on, like these young men are getting abducted, they somehow get separated

from their friends. They don't really seem to have drank that much, but yeah, that's the interest. They seem like a neighborhood. So it's confusing. We had a lot of people confirm like that drink thing, because I was like, is that a lot of drinks for that size of a person?

Did they say no? A lot of people said no. Like some people said, I'm that size, and that would do basically nothing to me, or my husband, my boyfriend, my father. I would be all the more important. They were saying that is very normal. And then I was thinking about it,

and I was like, John's a really tall guy. And I remember when we were like younger and actually like going to bars and stuff, like he could have way more drinks than I could ever imagine even looking at or smelling without dying. And he could easily do it and be fine. Right.

So I think I was going too much off my own, like, way, string tolerance. Like when you say six, like we were saying earlier for like near you, it would be a lot. It makes you think it's, but it's like you have to go by size. So, right, thank you to everyone who was like pointing out that they can tell us no.

Yeah. It was not. From everything I read it didn't seem like a plus, but I agreed with you. I definitely had to do some research into that because I was like, wait a second. That's why this case is so crazy because it's like things like that. Some people are like, no, that's not a lot of drinks. And then some people automatically are like, wait a second. That's why this case is so crazy because it's like things like that.

Some people are like, no, that's not a lot of drinks. And then some people automatically are like, that's a lot of drinks, you just, but I'm just drunk. This case has so much of that. They've gotta just dig into it. And you have to look at it from such a different angle instead of looking at it from your own lens.

You have to look at it like, it's a very generalized thing. Well, not only that, you have to look at it from like a scientific, like death standpoint. For sure. Yeah. And this specific case, or excuse me, a victim that we will talk about first in the part two,

you're just gonna lose your mind based on everything that is in this, like he was absolutely murdered. Like this was not an accidental drowning. I'm ready for my mind to just launch across this room. So I'm ready to see that. So let's get into it. So by the time that I started reading about Todd Guibes' case, I could not believe that law enforcement called this one an accident.

Like I was fully just shocked. Now I'm ready. I'm stressed. I'm stressed out here. Okay. So that's a thing. Like if you're not fully convinced that Todd Guy was murdered, like literally we have to talk

because I just need to talk to you to understand why you think that. Oh no, what if I don't think? All right, I'm ready. Well then we'll have a chat in here. But I talked to you about this a little bit already, so I think you'll be fine. But Todd was 22 years old

and he was living in Michigan. And the night that he went missing was June 11th, 2005. He had plans to go to an orchard party with some friends, which is like, that sounds right up our spooky alley. An orchard party? An orchard party. What?

One. Why have I never been to an orchard party? Why have I never been to an orchard party? This is on all of you. Why have you not invited me to an orchard party? If I ever get invited to one, I'll ask if I can have a plus one. Three, can I have an orchard party? First, we have to find an orchard.

We're gonna find one. This was like a family orchard, like a family farm orchard kind of thing. Fall plans, 2021, fuck me up. So only the beginning part though, just the orchard. Yeah, just that. But so before he went to the party, he stopped at a local bar called the CAS bar for a drink.

I couldn't find out whether he was with somebody or if he just like stopped for a drink by himself, but it also really doesn't matter. The only reason that I want, like, I tried to look into that was to see how many drinks he had at the bar or if maybe he could confirm it. Anybody remembered anything weird at the bar, but nobody remembered anything.

Good instinct. Thanks. You know I'm becoming a detective, so I'm gonna tell you. You are. Imagine me as a fucking detective. Imagine. No. But so he went to the bar and then he went to the party.

He hung out with his friends and he left her on midnight, which it's pretty decent time. I was gonna say, yeah, that's pretty straightforward night for a 22 year old. Absolutely. Now, over the course of the entire night, like we were saying, most of these people, these victims aren't drinking a lot.

Like, yeah, at all. He only had a couple drinks. And Todd's mother, Kathy, said that her son was a great kid. And the only thing that she was really worried about with all of this going on is that people will lose track of who he was. Oh, that hurts my heart. Yeah, in this case, specifically, like, I feel so bad for his mother because things are still happening.

Yeah. That we'll get into. Well, that's the other part. That's the other part of this case is these victims' families have to relive this over and over when another victim happens. Like, they just keep having to see this pile on top of the bed. And every mother, that word, like I've mentioned all the mothers, they all agree that their children were murdered. Wow.

That's interesting. They all agree that like the smiley face killer thing has something to it at least. And no one wants to believe their child was murdered. No, it's not what you want your first, you know, that wouldn't be your first thought as like, oh, yep, that's definitely what happens. your first, you know, that's not that wouldn't be your first thought is like, oh, yep, that's definitely what happens. So it's like for them all to think that there has to be a reason. Yeah, I mean, if anything, that's like the last thing that you

want, obviously, rather it be an accident. Yeah, if it has. If it's got a habit, you don't want to think of it at the hands of someone else. No, and just I just can't even put myself there. I can't even imagine. But she went on to say that he was a fun-loving family guy and she doesn't believe the authorities when they say what happened to her son. Now Todd was missing for a total of 21 days, which is three weeks. A lot of days. Three full weeks, that's literally almost a month. Yeah.

His body was discovered in the water by Jim Wilde and his wife who were getting ready to go canoeing, and this was a private lake that they lived on. Now, when they discovered him, he was discovered in a very strange position for somebody who had quote unquote drowned, just like a lot of these victims. His head was above the water, resting on one of his arms, kind of like his forearm, and he was floating vertically. Huh, not horizontally like you would expect. That's interesting. Very strange, very strange. What if you were trafficked into a cult over shot nine times, or fell in love with a vampire or went into a minor surgery and woke up one week later paralyzed.

What would you do? I'm Whit Missildine, the creator of this is actually happening, a podcast from Wondry that brings you extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. From a young man that dunes his entire future with one choice, to a woman who survived a notorious serial killer, you'll hear their first-person account of how they overcame remarkable circumstances. Each episode is an exploration of the human spirit and personal discovery. These haunting accounts sound like Hollywood movies, but I assure you,

this is actually happening. Followed this is actually happening wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wundery app. Now, one weird thing about the discovery was that Jim's brother, the man who lived on the lake and who discovered the body, his brother had actually been out on the lake fishing for like hours the day before Todd's body was found. Really? Like from daylight into nighttime. Now, the lake is not really that big and you can see most of it standing in one place.

Jim's brother never saw even a glimpse of Todd's body that night. That's strange. And he was actually, his, the Jim's wife thought that it was a beaver in the distance. So like, it was very, his body was very noticeable. Wow. And like where it was. Yeah. You would have seen him. Absolutely. So it's really strange that his brother didn't see him. Now, even stranger is that in the previous days when Jim had gone out to use his canoe, he found that it was missing. And when it turned back up again, it was filled with empty beer cans. Now this lake was like not off of exactly where they were partying. Like this was not off of the orchard. Huh, right. And it was like it's a private lake,

like I said. So that's really weird. I was going to say this isn't a public area. No, that's weird. So strange. And Kathy said that when Todd was discovered, she was able to see him, and she was surprised at the condition that he was in. And she went online and actually did some research and investigating herself into what a body would look like, had it been in the water that long. And she said, right, then, in there, she knew that Todd had not been in the water all that time.

No, of course not. And wait until we get into this, this specific one is just like, I can't. So Todd's autopsy listed only moderate decomposition. Now again, 21 days, 21 days, three weeks, almost a month in the of June, by the way, in like a warm area. Yeah, that doesn't check out to me. Like, it's May right now here, and it was 90 degrees today. And I could barely stand outside. Yeah. And you're telling me that it's only going to cause moderate decomposition in that time, that amount of time, and that specific, like calendar time. Yeah, I know.

It doesn't make any sense. That doesn't check out to me. The autopsy also made no note of any insects on the body, which is essentially just impossible in those conditions. Yeah, no. It also listed high levels of desipramine and amitriptoline, which are two antidepressant drugs that Todd was not prescribed.

And they spoke with a pharmacist in the documentary that I mentioned in part one. And the pharmacist said, like, these aren't party drugs. Like, you wouldn't use these to get high. Like, yeah, like, you're trying to rule these out as like, did he take them to go to his orchard party? Which is like, no, you wouldn't have taken those.

Cause you probably would have like fallen asleep. And, well, at the levels that were in Todd's body, they actually could have killed him or at the very least caused a seizure or cardiac arrest. Like not on drugs. So this is, and it's like, one, these weren't party drugs and two, the amount just wouldn't have, even if they were party drugs.

They would have been lethal. Exactly. Liesel or at least like close to lethal. Definitely like incapacitated. Absolutely, like you would have had lethal. Exactly. Huh. Liesel, or at least, like, close to lethal. Definitely, like incapacitated. Absolutely. Like, you would have had to go to the hospital to get your stomach pumped, probably. Very interesting.

But, you know, if they had been crushed up and slipped into Todd's drink, the key obviously would have been incapacitated really quickly, which seems to be what kind of happens here. Like, like I was saying in the beginning, these guys aren't drinking a lot. No. And then you don't really look for drugs in somebody's system. Like they don't necessarily look for GHB all the time.

No, of course not. And so they system. I don't really know why they found these ones in his system. Like and they didn't look for GHB in other autopsy. Is I don't know how that works? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it must have been, it can be like, what is

ordered? You know, like, what kind of tests are ordered? So maybe at this point, they just did it recover. I don't know. Well, I would assume, I mean, you would really look into this one based on the level of decomposition in the lifetime, supposedly, in the water. So maybe that's why they kind of looked a little bit further. I'm not exactly sure. But back to the insects. No one is buying the lack thereof on Todd's body, and especially not the people who were reinvestigating this case.

So the team met up with a man named Eric Benbow, who was a forensic biologist from Michigan State University. And he confirmed that in his experience, insect evidence is always listed on an autopsy. Yeah, which I would assume, because insects show up real quick. Well, yeah, I mean, they show up even when you're not, when your body's not found in the water.

Exactly, they show up with those lines. As soon as a body dies, an amazing layering effect of insects will show. And it's like different ones show up at different times. They show up for different kinds of decom. They do different things. There's like, you can tell such a timetable from the insects on a dead body. Yeah, I would assume.

And like, that's the kind of stuff they do at the body farm. Right. And it's like, they'll watch and see like, who shows up first? Mm-hmm. Who shows up second? Who's gonna come, who's gonna come way at the end and pick the stuff off the bones at the end? You know, like, there's like such's like such a routine to it all. Yeah, it's so crazy.

In the thing, so if you follow me on Twitter again, you saw that you'll understand that what I was tweeting about when I say kind of what we get into in a second. But I just find it so interesting, like it's so disturbing, that like obviously insects eat our bodies when they die. It's fascinating. Like that's fucked up, but it's so interesting.

It is. And that they're so rigid with how they do it, basically. Yeah, it's a system. It's a routine. That they give us evidence with what they do, right? Because they allow us to tell a timetable. They allow us to pinpoint closer, at least to a time of death. Yeah.

It's just really cool that they are evidence. It's just so great. Well, then especially even in the water, there's different aquatic insects. Exactly. And I was like, they were talking about here, they were like, oh, this insect and this kind of insect would have been right there. No, further, there should have been at least some note made of presumably a large amount of green algae

that if Todd had been in the water that long. In this specific lake, there's a lot of algae. And if there's not a lot of algae and you're in the water for 21 days, you're going to have some kind of film on your clothing. Absolutely. There wasn't a lot of film on his clothing and his mom actually said that was one of the things that struck her as odd. Yeah.

Anybody who said a fish tank? Exactly. You would be. Exactly. So, they did an experiment that you probably saw me tweet about. Now, pig skin is apparently, and I did not know this. Apparently, very similar to human skin, which creeps me the fuck out. So they took five pig carcasses and they put them into the water for three weeks, the

exact time that Todd was missing for and presumably in the water. And they periodically went back to check in to see what was going on. They also dressed one of the pigs to see how much algae would accumulate over like a certain amount of time. Now, decomposition literally started on day one. Yeah. The carcass became like really bloated and there was a lot of bugs lurking. And they were taking note of the different insects. I think they were even like kind of taking them into like tubes and everything.

Of course, because you're starting to let out gases almost like right away, especially in the water, which is attracting those insects. Yes. So the fact that there was no insects on him is just like, it's unheard of. It truly is. It's just not the truth. It's, it's, it's all insect on him. It's just like, it's unheard of. It truly is. It's just not the truth.

It's, it's, it's, oh, like dare I say impossible. No it is. Because even if he had been in the, I'm like, no it is. No it is. Only the autopsy technician. It's absolutely possible. It says me, her stylist.

Like, hey you did your research. I did. But it's, it's just, it doesn't make any sense. Yeah. And it's like even if you were in the water for one day, there would be some kind of insect song. Something's coming. Yeah.

Now, so that was one day. Three days later, there were insect eggs laid on the body, of course. And by day 21, the body was literally just like fizzling out, dissolving into the water. Had he been in the water that long, unfortunately, he would have putrified. There wouldn't have been anything left of him except skeletal remains.

Absolutely. Which is very sad. But I just feel like that whole experiment proves that he was not in the water for that long. Yeah, I don't know how they can look at that. And at least not question it. It's like, come on, you gotta start looking at this a little. Dude, it was one of the gnarliest things I've ever seen in my life, it is, it's wild. But I need to say this, but so fucking cool. Well, that's why the body farm has always fascinated me and enthralled me because it's so important. That kind of test is so important to do.

It's how we figure these things out. And I used to make fun of you all the time and be like, that's terrifying. Like you're a fucking creep. Now, like, sorry, I'm like, take me with you. Because you see the merit in it. It's very interesting and exactly. Like you said, like it can solve things.

It's like so important. So not only that, but again, I said they dressed one of the pigs in clothing. Now the level of algae on these clothes, they were algae at the point they were. They their pigs in clothing. Now the level of algae on these clothes, they were algae at the point that they were. They became one without algae. They did. Like it was a, it was like somebody got slimed on Nickelodeon.

Yeah. Like that makes sense. There's no fucking way that he was in the water for 21 days. No, this one seems pretty cut and dry. So something happened here. Then where was he and who did this to him? That's what I wanna know. Now this is what I was talking about when things are still happening

that are involving his mother and his family. A smiley face was not only left on Todd's grave. They put a smiley face on his grave. It looked like a sticker. There was also one found on a tree near where his body was found. Now you could absolutely argue it could be like some fucked up teenagers playing some kind of sick ass prank.

Yeah, which teenagers kids have been known to do. And by sick ass, I don't mean like cool dope. I mean, it just got some sort of teenagers. Like, fuck you guys if you did that. But can you imagine if you literally meant cool or dope, which is a dope ass person. He's sick ass teenager. No, not at all.

Not at all. Yeah, it's one of those, the smiley face thing is the thing where I like starts to teeter off. I get it. That's where my like skepticism kind of creeps in. But the rest of this one, I'm like, do I know it's like a smiley face killer that did it? No.

Do I know that it's somebody who did it? Yes. Absolutely. For sure. Now, as of February 22nd, 2019, I believe you say the Muscogon County Prosecutor is strongly considering reclassifying Todd's death as a homicide.

But it's like, can we kind of get over to the hump of where you're just like, hey, I saw that pig video too and like he was definitely murdered. Like let's go ahead and rule that a homicide. Can we stop just like strongly thinking about it and maybe do something about it, put one foot in front of the other and maybe just do it? Like get off your booty.

I love that as like a strongly. I'm really thinking about it. Nobody showed him the big video, I know it. Strongly thinking, that's it. If you saw the pig video, you wouldn't strongly consider it. You'd be like, we are opening this. I saw the pig video. And he still couldn't.

I just read it about it. I texted Elaine about it. I asked Drew if I could show him. Drew actually let me show him. Wow, that's impressive. I know. it was wild. It's just, it's one of those things I say it a lot, that it's like, why not just go above and beyond?

And if you're wrong and you find out that, yeah, it was an accident, all right, you're wrong, but you did your due diligence. So it's like, you can't really feel bad about it, losing money and resources or not, I think it's for a good cause. And it's like, what's the worst thing can happen? You find out that you're right and that it was an accident.

It is weird to me, I will say, that all of these, I shouldn't say all, most of these cases, all the evidence is coming out during the re-investigation. Like, there's, like, ligature marks around somebody's neck or there's, like, Todd Guy. Like, he was not in the water for 20 minutes. There's all these things like your life. Why do you guys not wanna open this up? Yeah.

And I guess, I mean, again, if you're skeptical of this, you could argue like, you know, it's not real and it will cause mass panic. Like I get that. Yeah. But also we owe these victims family closure. There's at least a couple here that are very questionable. Personally, I feel like every single one

that we've talked about so far is a murder. I feel like I don't feel that. No, I felt like there was a couple that I could definitely see being an accident. Okay. I see the thing is I can see why you think that. Yeah, I just strongly disagree. Yeah, which is fine because I'm not going to sit here and claim I know. You know, like, I know that it's an accident.

Like, I feel like some of them might be accidents, but there's a couple that are like pretty like. Oh, yeah. Like, like Todd Guy. I'm like, mm-hmm. Guys, that looks a little suspicious. Like, I just, I, I don't know. And it always, and it also makes me wonder with him being vertical in the water like that. I wonder if somebody tied something to his feet to throw him in, he stayed that way for a little while then whatever was slipped off his feet.

And he had already decomposed to the point where gases had escaped. So he stayed that way. Interesting. Instead of like decomposing in a way decomposed to the point where gases had escaped. So he stayed that way. Interesting. Instead of like decomposing in a way where if he was in the water for 21 days, you know, and he was already in a position, maybe he stayed that way because gases didn't escape in a way that would like put his body back onto surface.

That makes sense. I could see that. Who knows? I wonder. Which would again lead to... That's murder. He was dressed. And there wasn't that level of algae found on the clothing. That's the thing. So it's like, was he murdered?

And then, like, hells. And then to get rid of dispose of his body, they put him in the water with something attached to his feet. Oh, like, closer to... Maybe it wasn't attached very well. And it slipped off pretty quickly. Yeah. And then he just rose to the surface that way. And that's why he'd only been in the water for was moderate.

Yeah. Yeah. Because maybe he had decomposed a little out of the water. Sure. After he was held for a little bit. Yeah, that's a really something that's just me. I mean, this is your line of work. Spitball. I don't know.

I have no idea. I could absolutely see that. That's, I would have never thought of that on myball. I don't know. I have no idea. I could absolutely see that. That's, I would have never thought of that on my own. I don't know. The whole time I've been sitting here thinking the vertical thing, and I'm like, I know it happens rarely, but like, it's very wide. Because I think they said that, like, on the documentary,

too, they were like, this does happen, but it's like very, very wide. But it's definitely not like the norm. But then you think about, like, when we talked about Brian Wellesian, and it's's like he washed up after 77 days. That's why it doesn't make any sense. Yeah, those ones are wild. Like barely like he looked like he had been missing a week. Those are the ones that I'm like, all right, fellas. It's time to crack open those old case books.

Luckily Brian Wellesian, they did open up. Yeah. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of Wondries Podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our newest series, we look at the Kids for Cash Scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers, and often for committing only minor offenses.

The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines. The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would shatter the lives of countless children and force a heated debate about punishment and America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder App. So let's talk about somebody that you definitely know about. We are going to talk about William Hurley. Yes. If you grew up in or you're from Boston, you know this name. I know this

name. Now William was a 24 year old Navy veteran living in Boston with his girlfriend of two years named Claire. I saw it in some sources that they were engaged and then I've seen in other sources that they were just boyfriend, girlfriend. Either way, they were in love. They were in love and Claire is a beautiful human being. You can just see her soul is like so pure. Oh Claire. I feel so bad for her. My heart goes out to you. And his parents obviously.

Yeah. So on October 8th, 2009, the night he went missing, he had been invited by some co-workers to go to a Bruins game. William didn't really know that much about hockey and he wasn't super into the sport, but he did agree to go anyway. His girlfriend Claire was actually gonna be at class that night anyway, so it was like, he might as well.

Yeah. Now while he was at the game, he was texting Claire about one of the guys that was there with him. He didn't know the other guy really that well other than from that night. And the guy was apparently just being like a jackass and really getting on William's nerves. And he texted Claire saying the kid was a tool and then later he was like I'm gonna

kill this kid. Like obviously he didn't mean to like he's annoying. He's like he's a crack on fucking kill this kid. Now eventually about halfway through the game, William decided he was like I don't like hockey, I don't like this kid. I eat I'm good and Claire was actually to be leaving her class. It was pretty soon. So she could scoop him on the way. Perfect. So he gave her a call and he was like, can you pick me up? She said, yep. And she was on the phone with William while she was trying to figure out exactly where he was. Now, if you're from Boston, the garden, where the Bruins Games take place, the garden, the garden can be, even if you're from here, super hard to navigate.

Oh, it's a hellscape. It's a legit hellscape. And especially when you're picking somebody up because there's about 82 places that they could have exited from. I can feel the anxiety, oh my, just thinking about it. Even just leaving the garden yourself

like as a patron, you're like, is he like, what way do I go? Where are we? Are we at the right end? Tristan, did we park on? Yeah, it's always backwards. You always come out the wrong door and you're like, where the hell am I now?

You're like, find yourself back where you, it's, it's a, it's horrific. So Boston, am I right? With Boston. You are right. So when she got to where William said that he was going to be, she texted him, I'm out front. He wrote back, okay, I'm here, I'm coming.

Now the other thing about the garden, and really just Boston in general, is that you can't sit parked out front. Like, you gotta just keep going or everybody's gonna yell at you and flip you the bird. You have to keep going. So she had to loop around again, and she was just staying, like, William, stay in one spot and I'll find you.

Stop moving. Right, especially, and she was confused about, she said this in the documentary. She was like, I didn't understand like why he kept moving. Like I told him to stay in one spot. Yeah. Now, especially at that point,

she was like nervous too because she knew that his phone was dying. Oh, which like obviously at that moment is like, oh crap, your phone's gonna die, but but yeah you're like I'm gonna have to find God yeah so eventually somebody told Will like she heard somebody in the background yell that he was at 99 Nashua street and Claire was relieved because she was only 150 feet away from that point according to her GPS 150 feet my God but when she got to that point and pulled up there,

Will wasn't there. It had been less than a minute. Probably, I was gonna say. I was gonna say two minutes maybe if she's driving slow. So she got out of the car and she yelled his name, nothing. He literally just like vanished into thin air. That's wild.

This one specifically is insane. In just even the more you get into it. 150 feet away. And she on the phone with him. She said like I looked at my GPS. I was 150 feet away and I was relieved like oh finally I found him. Nope. So in the following days Claire did everything she could think of. She called Will's mom who came to Boston from I believe North Carolina. There were missing posters all along the water that Clare had hung up and people searching the city, but nothing. It would be six days before William's body was found in the Charles.

Now that's a river, if you're not from here. There were blunt impact injuries to his head. A bruise on his nose going under the right eye, which was now completely shut. And there were 18 micrograms of GHB present in his body, so he had absolutely been drugged. For sure. Like, obviously. Now, William's cell phone was found right near where Claire would have picked him up. It was like he like dropped his cell phone and just like vanished into another world. Because someone abducted him. Now, the cell phone looked like it had been run over, and I guess the battery was missing. Yeah, okay.

So, I mean, hello. It was given back to William's mother Lynn after the original investigation. So Kevin and his team asked if they could see the phone and maybe kind of get it up and working again. Now, they were hoping they could even like look at some of his text messages. And that's actually how they were able to get the text

that I was talking about in the call logs calling Claire. So they brought the phone to a digital forensic analyst, which I was like, what? Hell yeah. That's a thing. Like that's so, like all the just like the different forensics is where so many avenues you can go down if you want to get into for a visit.

There's something for everything and it's like these people are so laser focused on their one specialty. It's like, and they're just like so well educated and well-crucated. Like listening to them talk, you're just like, don't ever stop. You just keep everything.

Keep on talking. No, one of those people was Derek Ellington, the digital forensic analysis, or analyst wow. Analysis, analysis. It's even a new specialty in an analysis. Yeah, it's great. Now in his opinion, the phone had been more than run over. It seemed like somebody had snapped it,

taken the battery, and then ran it over. So like, clearly somebody wanted this phone done so. Perhaps the person who he was saying is really annoying and I want to kill him. That's kind of what I was thinking too. And again, these weren't, he didn't know this guy very well. These weren't like co-workers, I don't think that it never said anywhere that these were like his buddies. Yeah. Like I feel like when it says you're going out with coworkers, it's like, they're kind of your friends. They're just like people you see at work. Right.

Exactly. Like you don't normally hang out with them outside of work. Exactly. So yeah, that's how the phone keeps going. Thank you, you're my coworker. Yeah, I never see you outside of work. I don't see you outside of this. We have such an interesting job.

We do. We're literally together every single day. Yep. But in addition to the phone weirdness, they also wanted to look more into the injuries that William had suffered that night. And I actually talked to you a little bit about this, and I forgot what you said.

So, we'll get to it. I think I like debunked Juan saying in my own mind. I think you did. But I think I may have re-bunked it in my research. Re-bunked it. So while talking to Dr. Elizabeth LaPosta, she explained to the team that the injuries to William's face weren't entirely consistent with falling into the water

because most of them were in the recess areas of his face. This is what I was talking to you about. Now she went on to explain that typically when a person falls into a body of water, they hit the more prominent parts of their face, like your chin, your nose, maybe even your forehead, if you're me. Yeah, things that are protruding instead of like, come on, Vex, your cheek bones. Your cheek bones. Yeah, not like underneath your eye, your nose, maybe even your forehead, if you're me. Things that are protruding instead of like convex

or cheek bones. Your cheek bones. Yeah, not like underneath your eye, like him, or like kind of the part of your nose that's in between your eye, but I was kind of goes in a bit, so you're not really gonna hit that usually when you go into the water. Now, I lost my place.

The only way to explain it was injuries was basically assuming that he fell into something when he fell into the water that would have been able to hit the recess area of his face. Yeah. But, and I will say, to be fair, it is not unlikely that that happened if you know how nasty the trills were. If you've been in the chiles. There's a lot of stuff just lurking in there.

Well, my thing was like, what if he hits something that was protruding? Right. Exactly. Like, even while he was like floating, or moving in the, in the, in the Charles at some point. What if something was sticking out and happened to be able to reach? Yeah, I almost think of like, there's probably like old fucking pipelines

and shit in there. Like there's like old mobsters in there. There's definitely old, there's absolutely all sorts of things in there. Yeah. But the bruising around his face means that he must have been alive at the time he knew the injury and at least for several minutes after. That's a very good point.

So that's where I rebunk your funeral. You did, that's a rebunkage of that. He wouldn't have bruised unless post mortem, right? Unless, because I fully believe he was murdered. I do too. For sure. You can't convince me of murdered. I do too. For sure. You can't convince me of this, I mean, nothing that's right. No, there's nothing that says to me at all.

This was an accident. No one thing. No one thing. Even just once you get to GHB, I'm like, oh yeah, they were murdered. And like finding the phone where he last was talking to her and then like snapped, run over and talking to her. He was talking to her. He was planning on getting in that car with her.

Where the hell did he, he wouldn't have just wandered off. Again, it doesn't make sense. It's so crazy because you would assume that she would have seen him like cross the street or just somewhere, but that's why I think like someone really, I think they had to. I know, like tossed him in a van or something. Yeah, like led him away quickly.

So it was like really unnoticeable. But not, I mean, she was on the phone with him. But like after a broons game, no, this was midway through. Or excuse me, midway through a broons game, but still some people do leave. During those games, there's a lot of shit going on around the garden. And I mean, nighttime at Boston.

Nighttimes just a lot going on. Yeah, so it could be a very crowded area, which would allow someone to quickly lead him away. Yeah. But I just, I think it's with this one with the, like, I think he could have been clinically alive when he hit the water. You think so?

Which I think he could have been. I'm not saying he was. Okay, because I have no evidence to say he was except the bruising. Right. If he did happen to hit something in the water, and he was clinically alive, sure. Then it would have bruised. But to be honest, it sounds more like a beating.

That's what I think. Especially those specific areas. Yeah, it sounds the bridge of your nose, your ear, and the underneath your eye. Exactly. And the other thing that bothers me is to the point where the eye swelled shut. Exactly. Like that's not something hitting you in the water. It's swelled shut. Exactly. Like that's not something that's hurting you in the water. It's not a bump.

Yeah, that's a forceful injury. So yeah, to me, it sounds like a beating. I think so too. And it's like, I don't really think he entered that water alive, especially based on everything we know so far about the alleged smiley face killers and just these victims in general. Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah. Now, before Will was found actually, Claire spoke with a police detective that told her the

diving team had not found Will while they were searching in that area of the river. And he literally said to her that she could, quote, put that to rest. Because that was like one of the things that she was really worried about. Like, maybe she fell in the water or like, she was really worried about water. It's almost like she had this feeling. Yeah. It seems like obviously they were very connected. So damn. I don't put it past her for having just a gut feeling. Damn. Right. Now a week later Will's body was found in the Charles. Like I said. So he had told her she could put that to bed and then a

week later he was found there. Now I do find that interesting that they search that specific area because it's like, because that's happened before in these cases and then his body's turned up. And it's like, it's just interesting to me. Like it does fit kind of the MO and like the, you know. It all does kind of link up. That it does.

They're not there, then all of a sudden they're there. Right, it just, it doesn't make sense. And the location where his body was found is pretty compelling stuff, because where he was found would mean that his body was traveling against the current. That usually doesn't happen, especially with an unfortunately lifeless body. Yeah. Current tends to go one way, you know, carry things with it. It does. As opposed to against me. I mean, especially in Boston too, like we can get crazy wins here. That's weird. And this is my favorite fucking part of this entire thing. So I've talked about Dr. Lee Gilbertson. He was the doctor on Kevin's team. He volunteered to recreate the scenario.

the doctor on Kevin's team. He volunteered to recreate the scenario. And straight up hopped into the fight. Like for him to hop into the Charles River, this man is dedicated. That's real dedication. So they found a day that matched the weather conditions on like or like a week that matched the weather conditions on that particular time when Will would have been in the water. And their findings were that it would have been impossible for the wind to push a body against the current. I love that they've went this hard. I love it. You have to, I'll rewatch it with you.

Because I got to see this. So good. So that led them to believe that Will was dumped in the Charles, either the morning that he was found, like right there, or that he was dumped in the Charles from a different point than they had surmised in the Charles, either the morning that he was found, like right there, or that he was dumped in the Charles from a different point than they had surmised in the original investigation. Okay. Because they never had an exact pinpoint. They were just like, it was probably around here because he was talking to her, like, 150 feet, you know? Yeah. But, well, exactly. Now, one man was interviewed, and this is again, we're going to get into like the smiley face stuff, so it's, you know.

Brace yourself. So, one man interviewed said that he saw three stars next to a smiley face spray painted on an electrical box near the harbor. Now in Boston, like I think I said in part one, there's been about 12 cases presumably linked to the Smiley Face killings. Three of them were near Boston Harbor. So it is interesting that we have a combination of Smiley Face and stars.

Like three stars. For sure, and three stars. But also Smiley Face and stars, like I said, are very common. Very common. Very common grafites. But interesting. Right.

Something to entertain. Exactly. Now, there were also another three, including where William went missing near 91, or excuse me, 99 Nashua Street. Three smiley faces there. There was three near Brighton where three bodies were found and three near Boston university where three bodies were found. So for Boston, there's smiley faces near all the bodies that were found, all 12. Interesting. Now the guy who was interviewed said about this,

you have 12 arson's in the neighborhood? You got an arsonist, basically saying like, all these kids are turned in up dead. You got a serial killer. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Exactly. That's exactly what you're saying. Also, I wonder if, and I don't know if they said this or not,

if those, did they paint over those smiley faces or are they still all there. I don't know about that particular one because the other thing too is that the documentary came out in 2018, so I'm assuming it took probably like a year or two films, so I don't know. Yeah, I wonder. But I know that in some of the cases they've been painted over. Yeah.

And actually, it's really weird that you ask that right now because I'm getting into our next victim and his Smiley face was painted over. Oh really? Oh, that's funny, but I don't even think I have it in here So I'll just say it now. There was a Smiley face found near his Body where it was recovered and it was painted over like I said and then they went into the bar where he went missing from and there was Smiley faces on the foundation in the bar. Like put there, so it is interesting. Interesting. Again, the smiley face part of this does not really

interest me that much. Yeah, it's because it's not like, you know, they're the, I'm trying to think of like a really intricate, I know, like the Celtic knot killers. You know what I mean? It's like something you don't see all the time. You know what I mean? Where you were like, we're done all these Celtic knots

are just showing up and all these places. That would be like, huh, that's weird. But like smiley faces, that's the only reason it's like so hard to just totally hinge yourself on that. We should try to get into contact with Kevin Ganon. We should. And maybe even just like kind of hear what he, because I wanna hear a little more

what he has to say about the smiley faces. I do see his theory. Like very interested to hear that. Because I agree with him. These people are absolutely. Kevin Ganard. So I'm gonna figure out how to reach out to his team. We're gonna try to think it happened.

We're gonna try. Here we happen. We're gonna try. Here we are declaring it out. Don't hold onto my every last word, but. Nothing may come of this, but we are declaring it. Listen, there's been people in the past that I've tried to get on and we got the wrong. So we started this podcast and I was like, wow, I wonder if we'll ever have somebody like cool on there

and then what we got like Billy Jensen and I was like, excuse me. For an Emmy Christine, I died at that. And immediately, yes. So that's the best Pizito, Heather Bish. So, you know, let's, we're gonna put it out there. I think Kevin Cannon and the team are gonna come on the pot.

We're gonna manifest this, right? I'm gonna email them tonight. Yeah, we're gonna wait. But anyways, that's beside the point. Let's get into this. So our next victim is Tommy Booth. Tommy was this one especially, is just like, you can't convince me otherwise.

Oh, give it to me. Tommy was a 24 year old union worker from Pennsylvania and his mother, Barbara, who she just could be any of like my friend's mom. So she has that vibe about her that I just felt super connected to her. She has a Boston vibe. She's a mom. She's a mom.

She's a mom. But she described him as a sensitive sincere, self-proclaimed mama's boy and said that he was the glue that held their family together. Oh, shut the fuck up. So just like take my heart. Yeah, just step on it a million times.

She was actually on an episode, I just found this randomly on YouTube when I was like looking into this case. She was on an episode of Hollywood medium with Tyler Henry. Really? I love Tyler Henry so much. I know not everybody's into the medium thing, but I am. And I just thought this was worth mentioning.

Tyler did say, quote, there's so much of an emphasis on the investigative side of this that this person is not even having me talk about the passing itself. They're having me talk about the investigation after, and there's a reason. When it came to an investigation around this death, the thing is that there's this feeling of just like error, just like a lot of error, human error to be honest. That's his number one message here, even beyond his cause of passing. Interestingly, it's like, look at the details of the investigation. It doesn't add up. So he was saying basically that he connected with Tommy. He didn't say that himself. He was like, I don't have Tommy. Like, he was just like this person that I've connected with

is saying that. He's saying that this investigation was botched. And it was. So Tommy went missing on January 19th, 2008, while he was out celebrating a friend's 21st birthday. Now something that struck me as really odd about this particular case was that his friend group researched the bar that they were going to. Like they, yeah, they looked into it and it also just seemed like an odd place to go. Like the bar just seemed to be in like a

strip mall and it just seemed like a regular bar to go. Like the bar just seemed to be in like a strip mall and it just seemed like a regular bar. Yeah, but like, I don't know, maybe they had a cool dance floor or something. Yeah, who knows. There was a designated driver for the night though. And when it came time for them to go, like to leave, everybody was looking for Tommy

and they couldn't find him. No, in one source I saw that it was time to leave and that they were looking for Tommy and couldn't find him. And then in another source I read that they got kicked out and they couldn't find Tommy. Okay. So either way they just they had to I think in more sources and more sources and I believe actually Barbara the mother said that they were kicked out. I think they were like smoking pot or something. Oh, okay. And it makes a little more sense because it's like oh crap like we have to go like we can stick around and look for him. That makes sense.

But like I said in other cases, he just seemed to vanish. So it took 14 days to find Tommy's body, and his body was actually found behind the bar laying face down in a creek. There was like a small creek behind this bar. Now the creek is literally 30 feet from the back door of the bar, which now is shut down. There were drag marks in front of Tommy and a boot print next to him, which was really odd because they probably wouldn't have lasted a two week period. No, definitely not. Now, Tommy's nose and chin were full of dirt, clay, and small rocks, like he had been drug at least some

length to that specific spot. So it does make sense. Now, the original investigator tried to say that that was in a drag mark. This specific mark was like from the tide or something, like from the water going in and out. But it's a drag mark. So I'm going to go on record. But it's a drag mark.

So original investigator. You shut your face. Yeah. Okay. No, but even everybody like reinvestigating this was like, I don't know. Yeah. It's pretty much like the regular thing.

I think that. Now, when his body was discovered, again, he was missing for two full weeks. That's 14 days. Yeah. He was found in full rigor. Oh, this is the one. This is the one.

This is the one. Now, rigor mortis definitely doesn't last two weeks, like ever. From what I've looked into, like that's not a thing. No, I mean, environmental factors can like, fuck with it. I saw that, but it, nothing said like, it would fuck with it for that amount of time.

That seems like a long time. And again, he was only mildly decomposed. Yeah, that's where, like all of these things are there. But again, I will play devil's advocate here so that you don't have to. It was wintertime. I'm actually just gonna spend it. It was really cold.

So that can slow down the process. In here, that's the thing. And it can really fuck with all those things. In temperature, it can fuck with rigor in a big way. And it can hold rigor in a certain stage for longer. So that is a thing that can happen. So it's a possibility, but it's a rare possibility. I would say that like two weeks seems like lot. Yeah. But I know that it can stretch for quite a bit if the

temperature, the conditions are correct. But again, it does seem like, yay. Yeah, it's usually very unlikely. But it is possible. Yeah. So, but again, he was laying face down in a creek for two weeks and only mildly decomposed. And like we were just saying, weather messes with it.

But that was actually one of the theories that the original investigators had. Like they went with the whole weather thing. They believed that Tommy's body had actually gotten stuck under the frozen part of the creek. And then for a lack of a better term was like spit out when the water melted. And then he ended up in that spot.

Okay. So I don't know because here's the thing. Tommy's stepfather's friend walked up and down the banks of that creek like a couple days or a day before Tommy was discovered and he never saw him there. What? And he also said that the portion of the creek

that Tommy was found in was not frozen at all. And he had been standing right above the spot where Tommy's body had been discovered. Okay, that's weird. That's super weird. Yeah, that's weird. Now another weird thing here is that there was fixed levity on Tommy's back, but he was found lying fixed first.

Right. And again, in the water when you're drowning, it would be really strange to have fixed levity in the back, right? Yeah, yeah, that's a strange one. It's not a drowning. That's very strange. Yeah, it's not common in drowning back. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a strange one. It's not a drowning. That's very strange. Yeah. It's it's not common in drowning victims. And I think I've said that in a couple of the other ones

who did have again fixed levity in their back. And we said I was going to say because it was another one. I think I believe it was Brian Wellesian. Now it's not really crazy to think that somebody could have wanted to harm Tommy. In the weeks leading up to his death, actually, he was saying some pretty strange things. He actually invited in an uncle the day that he died, that he was running with a tough crowd who were moving drugs and guns, and he felt like he was in over his head. And he actually mentioned just moving to Florida and starting fresh. Like he was, he was feeling again like he was in over his head. I can't think of another way to say that. Yeah, he was stressed out about it. Okay.

And then about a week before he went missing, his mom heard him on the phone with someone and he seemed to be like really stressed out and just repeating over and over again. No, I would never do that, man. No, no. All right, yeah. And his mom was like, what?

And then he made a separate comment to her. And I don't even know how it came out, but he said he probably wouldn't be around that much longer. And she was like, shut up, like don't say that. What the fuck? But again, I mean, you don't think of anything. Like you don't really think of this. Something like this, yeah.

Now behind the bar on the wall facing the creek, there was a smiley face spray painted, which in this one, it does creep me out a little bit because it's a very close proximity. Yeah, and all these smiley faces definitely freak me out. Like, that idea of like creep is pretty terrifying and that is weird. That one is weird and they painted over it

and like I said, another one showed up. Yeah. So I haven't seen anything about whether or not they were going to reclassify his death. I think the original investigator wants to see more evidence based on what I saw in the documentary because he is fully convinced that this was just an accidental drowning. They actually had somebody recreate the crime scene and like recreate what would have happened and everything and the guy still wasn't fully convinced.

Yeah, it's something strange with this one. Yeah, it's just, it's really weird. And honestly, it's really heartbreaking because his mother believes that he was murdered. Yeah. Like it seems like. And it's like just look into it further, man. I know.

I feel like some of these are like a pride thing where the original investigators are like, nope, like we did a good job and it was good enough. Oh for sure. And that really bothers me. Like, yeah, put your pride aside and think of if this happened to your son and like what your wife would think and what you would think.

That's the thing, it's like, I really do think that this is at least partially a pride thing. There's no way, because it's, I mean, it's also human nature to have like that, like no, I did a good job. Yeah, but like I don't think to be criticized. But like you gotta let it go. You have to let it go.

You gotta let it go. For the greater good. And you gotta sit there and go, maybe I was wrong about this. It's a loss of the one on my mind. It's just you gotta look at it from a different angle. You do. You do.

Shift your perspective. So the last victim that we're gonna talk about tonight is Dakota James. Now, just like all the other ones, this is a particularly weird one. But this one is really weird because it's almost like whoever did this to Dakota had tried to previously Huh, okay do tell this one will fuck you up. So on December 15th, 2016

Dakota's friend Shelley got a call from Dakota and he said I don't know where I am. I'm so cold. Please help me. I'm lost What the fuck yeah now? so-called, please help me, I'm lost. What? The fuck? Yeah. Now, he was out walking in what he thought was North Pittsburgh and had no idea how he ended up there. Like, he just, like, came to while he was walking around on the streets and called his friend and was like, I don't know where the fuck I am. Like, you gotta help me.

Sounds like he was drugged. Yep. So luckily, he was sharing his location with this particular friend, Shelley. And she was able to see that he wasn't even in North Pittsburgh. He was in South Pittsburgh. So he was very disoriented. And something was incredibly wrong.

I'm getting goosebumps now because I know what we're getting to. This is fucking crazy. So when Shelley got to Dakota, he was coming out of a hotel, walking toward a black SUV that was parked facing the wrong way in the wrong lane. No, she yelled his name as he made his way to the car.

Oh, excuse me, she yelled his name and as he made his way to her car, like once he kinda like snapped out of his trance, the SUV sped off. Okay. Like, weird. Come on. Weird. Now he told her that he had gone out to the bars around seven o'clock with his co-workers, which I don't know, his co-workers are fucking weird. You got to stop hanging out with co-workers, everyone. It's trouble. Don't do it. That's why I

never hang out with Elena. Yeah. Now, and he said that he went out and like that was all he remembered just the beginning of the night, getting drinks with them. His words now were totally clear, and he was walking in a straight line, but couldn't figure out where he had been for the past four hours. Sam Nisha. But he was really shook up about it, and just really didn't want to talk about it, so they didn't really talk about it after that. What the fuck? Now, fast forward to five weeks later later on January 25th, 2017, 23 year old Dakota

is out with these same co-workers. And he gets kicked out of a bar for being quote unquote, two drunk. So he started making his way back home. Also, if one of your fucking friends gets kicked out of a bar because somebody thinks they're two drunk, one of you has to go with them. Yeah, just somebody, like you never you never let your friend leave a bar.

Well, you know what, I have to say, bar should let that happen. I know, it should be on them to at least have somebody go with you. I know it's not their thing, but I know. I may call you in Uber, like, can we be a little more human here?

I know, I feel like it could avoid a lot of. Just make sure that you do the best you can just do you do do do do do do do do Listen do what you would want somebody to do to your kid or your sister except or your brother or your mom or whoever you love or someone You love I don't care. Just like treat people nicely. Yeah, walk my drunk dog home Come on. Come on. You just wanted to have a good time. Yeah, so he started making his way back home Dakota had just gotten a raise at work. He had plans with his family that weekend. He was a grad student.

He was excited about finishing school. He had everything going for him. Yeah, sounds like it. But according to the police, he tripped and fell while trying to use the bathroom in the water near the Roberto Clemente Bridge, and he drowned. Now, interestingly enough, there are 11 smiley faces graffiti on that bridge. 11.

11. Okay. Now Dakota, who by the way was the mother fucking swim team captain. Oh, okay, drowned. Yeah, the swim team captain drowned. Okay. I don't think so The swim team captain drowned. Okay. I don't think so.

Interesting. Now he was missing for a total of 40 days before he was discovered in the Ohio River. To missing for a long time. 40 days. Now Robinson Townships Volunteer Swift Water Rescue Group. Say that five times fast. Swift Water Rescue.

That's hard to say. You gotta say the Robinson Townships Volunteer Swift Water Rescue, the whole thing. Damn. I can't even say it on the more like one Robinson townships volunteers with water rescue. You're the whole thing damn. I can't do it. I can't say it on like one track. I feel like I'm reading it and I can't say it. I know, right? But they recovered Dakota's body two miles beyond M's worth back channel

damn. Now, obviously, after 40 days in the water and probably having gone underneath a damn, you would be pretty beat up and very badly decomposed at that point. I mean, I would say so. Probably. Probably. Yeah, but Dakota's body, like the others, was in fairly good shape.

The rescuers actually recognized him from the news. Really? Yeah, from the news. They said that they had rescued and recovered nearly a dozen bodies from that same water. And out of all of them, Dakota's was in the best shape. Well, yeah, that doesn't make sense. Nope.

And Al topsy revealed that there was GHB in his system. Wow, I'm shocked. So weird that all of these guys have the same drug in their system. Super duper rare. Other than Todd Guy, those two. What an accident. Drug combinations.

Yeah, I'm like, through the fuck at that. That seems like it was like a last ditch effort. I think you're right. One who knows maybe they tried to put GHB in his system and they just didn't test for that. That seems like it was like a last ditch effort. I think that's right. One who knows maybe they tried to put GHB in a system and they just didn't test for that and they saw the other two drugs like first. Maybe. Maybe the GHB didn't work or something.

Yeah. But anyways, there was GHB in Dakota system, but other than that, they thought it was an accident. Other than that drug that was placed in the system. I said it before, but like every time I see that somebody has like GHB in their system, I'm like, oh, okay, like somebody was gonna murder you or at least take advantage of you. Somebody was gonna do something nefarious.

Yeah, you don't usually drug people that you're just hanging out with. I'm not usually, I never drug people that I just want to hang out with. Me neither, but I can't speak for everybody else, so I just figure out. No, good call, good call. Now, Jakob and his family knew that this was not an accident, but they were actually being brushed off by the police and like not at all taken serious thing, which is fucked.

So they were like, cool, fuck you, and they hired a PI. Good. Now they got the autopsy photos and their recovery photos. Fuck yeah. And then Kevin's team became involved and they just fucking got shit done. Kevin, next guest, I'm so proud of them. I know me too. I just like, I then Kevin's team became involved and they just fucking got shit done. Kevin, our next guest, I'm so proud of them. I know me too, I just like, I job Kevin.

Man, ask him about this. But Kevin and his team brought the autopsy and recovery photos to our boy, Cyril Wecht, who saw Cyril a very apparent ligature mark around Dakota's neck. Oh, okay. So apparent that when they showed it in the documentary, I was like,

oh yeah, Ligature Mark. You're like in my professional opinion, that's Ligature Mark. Like I've seen one. Now this was really interesting. I've never heard of this before. There was also blood pooling in the nail beds on the third and fourth fingers,

which he said was indicative of somebody trying to relieve pressure from a ligature. Like, if you take your third and your middle finger and your ring finger and you do around your neck, like you're trying to pull, like crazy. So there was so amazing that like forensic pathologist can see that and be like, oh, that's what that's from. I want to be that smart.

Like, unreal. I'm not even kidding you. This case made me want to like go take a couple of classes in like forensics. Yeah, just to learn. I don't have the time to do that at all, but I want to. But I want to.

But so interesting. And as for the Ligature Mark, he said it was, quote, strongly suggestive and entirely consistent with a Ligature having been applied around the neck. I do not hesitate for one moment to be highly critical of the neck evaluation. Wow. And again, I think we said it in part one,

but for another person in the business to be critical of another person's work is a very big deal. Like that does not happen a lot. Like for, yeah, it's not like friends, like pathologists are running around being like, well, that guy's a fucking hack. Yeah, there's a lot of respect within the field. Yeah, it's like you want, a pathologist are running around being like, well, that guy's a fucking hack. Yeah, there's a lot of respect within the field.

Yeah, it's like you want, because you're all in it, you're all supposed to be in it for the right reasons. It's the same reason, you know what I mean? For the, to speak for that dead person. Exactly. That's what you're supposed to be in for. And it's like, so you want to believe everybody's in

for it, for that. So you're not going to go questioning people, you think they did their job. No, but then you look at it. That's supposed at it and then you look at this and you're like, so if one of them is, if like Cyril Wect is being like, I'm questioning this evaluation on this one part. It's a huge deal. He's questioning it. Which means, and he's questioning it out loud, which means there's something wrong with it. Right. Now, the DA was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're highly mistaken, very like honored guests. Yeah.

So he left. They tried to say that the ligature mark around Dakota's neck was blood from his mouth and nose. So numero uno. Wow. His mom was like, that's super weird though, because he was in the water for 40 days. Like, I feel like that would have washed off.

That's a bold one. And Numerow Dose, most of the Ligature Mark that was like super duper apparent was on the back of his neck. So it's like how exactly did that happen? Did it like drip down and like pull around like it didn't take like hard right angle and like like where they drew out for a Sunday drive?

Did it defy gravity and go somewhere? No, that maybe I want to like belt out in a show tune, but that doesn't really happen to me a lot. No, and it's like, I feel you on that, but like this is one of those moments that I won't do it. Yeah, no, but I get what you wanted to do there. Wave-lamp here with you. Defying gravity.

There you go. But Cyril Wack said that he strongly suggests the reopening of this case, and he definitely thinks that at least the very, at suggests the reopening of this case, and he definitely thinks that at least the very, at least the very, I mean, at the very least, the manner of the death should be changed to homicide. Yeah. Like, we're talking ligature marks, we're talking blood pooling, we're talking missing

for 40 days. Like, how much more do you need to say this is a homicide? Yeah, I don't understand. Now, unfortunately for that to happen, the medical examiner would have to be willing to review the case and he didn't want to until the family went to the media, which I thought was like really,

I'm just gonna go ahead and say it like that's fucking shitty. I was just gonna say that's shady. Shady is hell. That's real shady. It's shady sounding. Here I am, that's shady. It's like, I guess you could say, it's like one of those pride things again,

but like put your fucking pride aside, their child died. Well, that's the thing, it's like at least sit there and go, okay, I think I did the job that I feel proud of. Sure, I'll look at it again. Well, and if you had full confidence, that's the thing you originally found.

I think that you would go into it and say, sure, I'll do it again, because I did a great job the first time. Would you? 100% think that because I don't want to do something again. I didn't get job the first time. I wouldn't be like, so I'm not doing it again. I'd be like, okay, family who is grieving, who I am supposed to be giving answer.

That's my whole job. Literally my job. Is to speak for your loved one who can't speak anymore. Yep. And it's like, of course, I would go back and be like, Sure, I'll take a whole other look at him. Obviously. And I'll give you the same findings if I did my job correctly. And if I didn't, then boom, we had gone my face.

Yeah, right. Yeah, that's a maze. So after they went to the media, he was like, Oh, I'll meet with you. Oh nice. But as of 2019, I haven't seen any update that he did review this case. I tried to find any updates. There's none. All right, Kevin, that's something we're going to have to talk about. Kevin, come on.

Now, obviously, I firmly believe that somebody murdered Dakota James, granted all the evidence in the photos alone, but I have one more tidbit for you. There was a transaction made on Dakota's credit card two days after he disappeared. When he was discovered, his credit card was found with his body. So who used that credit card? That's weird, very weird. Now, again, playing devil's advocate,

I will say I believe it was some kind of like PayPal transaction. So I know that those can be scheduled kind of, right? I think they can. Or sometimes like having automatic payment, come out of your bank a little bit later. Yeah.

Maybe you spent the money on Tuesday, but it was like pending. You're right. So I guess it could be like a case like that, but that's still. No, we're to look at. I will say that piece of evidence isn't as compelling to me as everything else.

Yeah, but it's there. It was just a fun little tidbit. It's there though. And it's there. And it's, here's the top of everything else. That's the thing. You have to like, even the small things when you put them in with the big things,

they become more puzzle pieces. Yeah. That's when you start to get the the big things they become more puzzle pieces. Yeah. That's when you start to get the whole picture. It's true. It's very true. I'm chaining. And there's some other things that I left out with each and every victim because I really want you guys to go watch the documentary.

Seriously. There's a couple of things and I didn't want to take all the work that they did obviously. Yeah. So definitely go watch that. The small face killer is documentary on oxygen. Yeah. Now, there are arguments against the smiley face theory, and I think we kind of talked about them

basically throughout this whole thing. Smiley faces are very common graffiti. Drowning is a very common way to die, unfortunately. And the biggest thing of all is that what is the motive? That's the thing that I... That's the thing with is that I do too. Why? I know not everybody has a reason.

People just like to do bad things. But it's like, this is a very big operation. It's that seemingly would involve a lot of people. Well, it's like a cross country. Like this is a ring. And it's like, so what is the purpose of the ring? Is it just a ring that likes to do this? I don't get it.

But it's so weird because you usually don't think of serial killers as working together because they're egotistical. They don't work together. Yeah, like in most of the time in the grand scheme of things. No. But I'll leave you with this. That's like the scariest part when there's no motive.

All right, Billy Lumus. I was just gonna say, Billy Lumis. Billy Lumis. I had to add it on. Billy Lumis. So yeah, dude, go watch that documentary. You mean, Elena, we're gonna go watch it together right now. Holy shit.

And also just says like, because we talked a lot about like dead bodies and forensic pathology and all that fun stuff. Go read Stiff by Mary Roach. It's a really good book. I have the book, I'll let you, I will let you borrow it. And it's a really good book. I have the book. I'll let you borrow it. And it's a really good book. And you can all borrow my book.

My copy. I actually want to read it. We'll just pass it around. I'll mail it to everybody. Everybody write your notes in the margins. I want that. Like just Mariano from Gilmore Girls. And but yeah, it's a really good book.

It goes into a lot of like the after death stuff and it's fascinating. It is fascinating. Because I mean, I only touched like the tip of the iceberg reading what I read and I would love to find out. Oh yeah. I have so many mistakes now that you'll be like,

oh, and I think it will be helpful like going forward with for sure. For sure. Yeah, it always is. So thanks for listening guys. Wow, that was amazing. And I am still stumped. Oh, it always is. So, thanks for listening, guys. Wow, that was amazing. And I am still stumped. Oh, you fucker.

I'm still stumped. I'm still stumped. There's a few for sure, murder. Yeah. 100% don't even, like, I don't even have to bat an eyelash at it. There's a couple of that. I'm like, I don't know. See all of them.

I'm like, I can definitely see some accidents, but there's some murder in there. There's murder all over the place. I don't know if they're very similar, so I don't know. It could be the same people, but that I'm like, it could just be different people. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know about single case.

You tell me, Kevin. Kev, Kev, Kev. Kev. But in every single case that we talked about, there was only moderate decomposition, and all of these bodies were found in the water. Kevin. Kevin. But in every single case that we talked about, there was only moderate decomposition and all of these bodies were found in the water. Like that wild doesn't really happen, but then obviously like weather and blah blah blah. Yeah, exactly.

So tell us what you think. Yeah guys, you got to tell us what you think. Yeah, I did. I did. I did. Tell us what you think. If you'd like to be considered true. Alright guys, we love you and thank you so much for listening.

As always, and we hope you... Keep it... Waaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Thank you. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself

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