Morbid - Episode 288: The Murder of Betsy Faria Part 2

Episode Date: January 1, 2022

Y’all Pamela truly goes all out in part two. We don’t want to say too much because of all the twists and turns this episode is about to take but we will tell you that you’ll hear some good news about Russ and that two more people associated with Pamela Hupp either died or were killed under mysterious circumstances. Hold onto your butts!  https://www.stlmag.com/longform/pam-hupp/ Also our friend Keith has a whole podcast series on this case!!! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-thing-about-pam/id1479234915 As always, thank you to our sponsors: Betterhelp: This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp and Morbid listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com/morbid LittleSpoon: Entire code MORBID at check out to get 50% OFF your first Little Spoon order Stamps.com: Sign up with promo code MORBID for a special offer that includes a 4-week trial, free postage, and a digital scale. No long-term commitments or contracts. Just go to stamps.com, click the microphone at the top of the page, and enter code MORBID. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Morbid early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. This episode is sponsored by the Audible Original Series, Exposed, the Ashley Madison hack. In the early 2000s, millions of people joined AshleyMadison.com, a dating site for married people to have affairs. But the promise of discretion was shattered in the summer of 2015 when anonymous hackers published millions of cheating spouses information into a searchable database.

Presented by award-winning Canadian actress Sophie Nelisse, this new Audible original explores the aftermath of the Ashley Madison hack. Dive into this real-world scandal to find out what happens when private affairs become public domain. As you follow along the stories of those caught up in the hack, unearth societal concerns around privacy in the digital age. Join Sophie Nelis for Exposed, the Ashley Madison hack. Listen now on Audible. Wondery's new podcast, Blame It On The Fame, dives into one of pop music's greatest controversies. Milli Vanilli set the world on fire. But when their adoring fans learned

about the infamous lip syncing, their downfall was swift and brutal. Listen to Blame It On The Fame, Milli Vanilli, on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. Thank you for being a friend

Boom, boom, boom, boom Traveled down the road and back again Your heart is true You're a pal and a confidant And if you're a pal and a confidant and if you threw a party and invited everyone you knew well you would see the biggest gift would be from me and the card attached would say thank you for being a friend for being a friend.

R.I.P. Betty White. I miss you so much. I'm very upset about it. Yeah. This is a blow. Yeah, 2021 just really had to say, fuck you for the 400th time. But you know what? I feel like it's like Betty White

was just great for 99 years 99 years you know what it's been great i did it right i did it on my terms i did everything awesome yeah and now you know what they're reunited betty said golden girls it's been real it's been fun but it hasn't been real yeah so betty white was like truly america's sweetheart oh yeah i have to read this tweet that i saw last night i don't know if you saw me retweet this it's the most beautiful thing i've ever seen in my life um guy branham yeah tweeted this and he said, Betty White dying three weeks before she turned 100 is the final act of performer whose timing has always been sharp, always unexpected, and even with the warmest of characters, always a little dangerous. No one else could live to 99 and so perfectly leave us wanting more. It's so true.

I sobbed. And so many people are like Capricorn energy. Seriously. True Capricorn who left during Capricorn season. She left on her own terms. She did. But man, the world is a little darker now that Betty White is gone. It really is. I want to watch The Proposal now. I just love her and her voice is exactly my grandmother's voice. So every time I would hear her talk, it was like hearing my grandmother talk. They both had that very sweet, very just like warm voice. It's just something about their voice.

Like, you know, Rose on Gilmore Girls or Gilmore Girls, Golden Girls is like that voice you hear that you're like, oh, Rose. Saint Olaf. Look at you. But yeah, we just had to, we had to give Betty a proper send off. So sad. We love her. She outlived everybody on the Golden Girls and everybody on the Mary Tyler Moore show. I know.

Drew told me that. That was a Drew factoid that I was like, wow, look at that. But yeah, I think it was very appropriate for 2021 to end that way. Yeah. Because fuck you, 2021. For real. And nobody claimed 2022. Nope. i'm not saying a damn word all i want to do in january is clean and organized so same and moisturize the end and moisturize

i've been moisturizing you have yeah i know that's impressive thank you but yeah so that's all we really wanted to touch upon that was a big thing we wanted to talk about a big sad but i know everybody is very excited to hear part two of ash's uh story here and you're doing an amazing job sweetie thanks and i've i haven't looked it up either everybody keeps saying they haven't googled it i hand to the wall that i that i love that we praise the wall praise the wall hand to the wall i not Googled. So I don't know what's about to happen. And I'm very terrified. You don't know what's about to happen.

For all of these people involved. You have no idea. All right, let's do this. All right. So when I left you off in part one, which I also, I don't think I told people that this was going to be two parts because a few people tweeted and were like, it ended. And I was like, okay, so Russ is in prison. You're like, wait, so that's the end.

And I was like, no, guys, I think I just forgot to tell you that I was true I think I put in the title part one but you know hopefully I did I'm sure I'll double check but sometimes I don't read the titles of things like I just listen again it was the end of 2021 so maybe I didn't put it in there it could have been me who knows I'll take responsibility you know what you guys are fine don't worry about it that's me but when i left you in part one uh russ had just been sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole wild pam hop had gotten 150 000 of betsy's life insurance wow insane insane i mean i understand i don't understand why russ got like life in prison yet because i just don't i don't think the jury i thought the jury was gonna end

up in a hung jury personally or like a mistrial of some sort I understand why he was put on trial I understand why there was some doubt either way for sure but to think that Pam got nothing but a life insurance payout is like really wild to me cuckoo nuts bananas yeah truly so part two let's go let's do this so one topic that kept coming up during rice it rices we're off to a great start we are russ's trial was the life insurance policy and the fact that pam was the beneficiary so i said in part one russ's lawyer joel schwartz wasn't able to bring this up as a possible motive for Pam to kill Betsy. So I guess the jurors just kind of like didn't think of that possibility. And again, as I said in part one, most of these jurors were just too struck by the number of stops that Russ made.

Of course. And they literally can't figure that into their decision, the Pam thing. Exactly. So like even if they were struck by that whole notion and were thinking that was a thing, they literally can't use that in their decision making. Because she has, quote unquote, no direct connection to the case. Yeah, like, they have to leave that out.

So that's really hard. And then they paired that with what they believed to be the evidence against him. So it just made sense to them that he was the one who carried out this murder. Yeah. But one big source of contention was that Pam had taken her sweet ass time setting up the trust for Betsy's daughters. Because remember, in the beginning, Pam said, Betsy wanted me to be named the beneficiary because she was afraid that Russ would like spend it all. And her daughters were too young. But I told her, I'll make sure they're taken care of.

Yeah. By setting up a trust, they get it at a certain age. Exactly. There's like all these conditions. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. care of yeah by setting up a trust they get it at a certain age exactly there's conditions exactly exactly exactly but so she wasn't setting it up like in leading up to the trial so everybody was like what is going on like that doesn't make sense so joel schwartz actually asked pam like during a break like not in front of the jurors or anything why it had taken her so long because at the point

of the trial it had been set up but like leading up to that it took forever so they were like what was that about so he was like why did that take so long and she told him her mother shirley had actually passed away the october before this trial started and she had passed away from alzheimer's okay um a staff member at shirley pam's mother shirley her assisted, had found her body in the grass below her third story balcony. So they believed that she must have had some kind of accident watering the flowers on her balcony. Oh no. And like fell somehow and she fell three stories down or some people thought maybe she jumped off and like she just didn't realize what she was doing

because she was suffering Alzheimer's. That's horrible horrible it was really horrific so when schwartz got that answer he was like okay like very valid reason that makes sense yeah he didn't press the issue no like all right cool and he had an appeal to work on anyways because there was no way that he was going to let russ sit in jail for a crime that he didn't think he was responsible for yeah i mean that's his job that is his job so So while he was working on Russ's appeal in 2014, he found out that Betsy's daughters were actually suing Pam Hupp for Betsy's life insurance money. Huh. Because even though Pam had set up a trust the week before Russ's trial, she set it up the week before, Betsy's two daughters had not received a penny from Pam.

I'm shocked. And in all reality, there is recorded video of Detective Ryan McCarrick, the lead investigator on Betsy's case, telling Pam that it would really look better if she set up that trust before the trial started. Wow. Yeah. It will really look better. You know, this is the right thing to do because those are her children and they deserve that trust. That is their money, technically. Yeah. It would just, it would be good for appearances. It would look good. You know, optics. That's really all we're looking for here. So she did. She set it up one week before. She

funded the trust with $100,000, but she knew exactly what she was doing she had set up a revocable trust and she got rid of it just a few weeks after the trial emptying it and keeping the money for herself are you shitting me she set up a revocable trust she set up a trust just to rip it back she set up a trust so that it looked like she had during the trial and then it was over and she was like cool wow like he's in prison they're young what doesn't fucking matter to me she's a horrible person and she thought they weren't going to do anything about it of course exactly so she had to explain that she revoked the trust uh to attorney david bush during a deposition for the civil suit that she was now going through with Betsy's daughters. And something about that, or excuse me, everything about that sat wrong with

him. Yeah. He was like, you revoked the, okay, okay, let's finish this up. Like, was there a reason that she gave for revoking it? She literally was like, it's my money. Like, don't you have to have a reason to revoke a trust? I don't know a lot about trust, so I'm honestly not sure. I'm not sure either. You would think you would need a valid reason that like somebody would have to sign off on but i guess she probably just made one up so she's she's fucking pam wow and she literally was like so in the beginning she had said like oh like betsy wanted me to take care of them and then it slowly actually very quickly turned into no betsy wanted me to have the money like that's my money yeah it's mine and i can do whatever I want with it.

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really off about this whole situation. Duh. Yeah. So he called Russ's attorney, Schwartz. So at that point, Schwartz had already filed an appeal for Russ's case. And as soon as he got that call, he started working on a Mooney motion. So a Mooney motion informs the court that there's new evidence for a judge to consider that might change the previous verdict. Ah. And just a little history on it. It was born after the 1935 trial of Mooney versus Hollihan, in which a man named Thomas Mooney was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to death, actually.

Oh, damn. So he claimed that the state had intentionally suppressed evidence and that testimonies against him were knowingly false. Wow. Yeah. Sounds a little bit familiar. It does, I would say. Yeah. And he argued. Thank you for that history. Oh, we're not done. Oh, we're not even done. But I just love that you're like introducing this. This is nice. I was just like, oh, I want to know more about that Mooney motion. I always love that stuff bet everybody else will too yeah so he argued that because of this his case did not receive due process and because of that that was a direct violation of his 14th amendment right which declares that all persons born in the u.s are citizens and guaranteed equal protection of

the laws so his appeal was denied actually a first on like a stupid technicality but he was actually later pardoned in 1939 by california governor colbert olson him him yeah in missouri's history at this point this new point like where we are with russ a mooney motion had only ever been granted three times wow when joel schwartz filed his it became the fourth Mooney motion granted in this state. Look at that. Look at that. So Russ's case was remanded in February of 2015. And then nine months later, in November of 2015, he actually waived his right to a trial

by jury because he was like, that didn't go well the first time. And he decided instead to have a bench trial where one judge would rule on his fate. So Prosecutor Leah Askey Chaney, remember her from part one? I do. She tried again to get a ruling that the defense would not be able to present Pam as a possible suspect, saying for the second time now that she had no direct connection to the case. Okay. So unlike the first judge, who was Judge Chris Kunza-Menemeyer from Russ's first trial, the judge this time around, who was Judge Stephen Omer, he wanted to hear about Pam's role in the case. So he denied this motion.

Okay. Which it's also interesting to me that this prosecutor would say Pam has no direct connection to the case. That's what's wild to me. For like a myriad of reasons, but especially because Pam was like constantly going back to the police with new information about the case. So it's like she's very involved. She's very much involved. Very much. And I don't know if you guys remember, but she was one of the last people to see her alive. I would call that a connection to the case.

That's a pretty big connection. She also received a huge life insurance payout. I would also call that a connection. Well, that's the thing that I'm like, my brain won't even wrap around. It's like she is literally the person who was changed to be the beneficiary of a sizable life insurance plan. Four days before somebody died. Before she was murdered.

And we're just going to, no one has seen ID discovery. No one's watched Oxygen here. I guess not. Like, I would literally be like, have none of you, none of you have cable? Not Leah. Like, none of you? Not one of you has this? Not Leah.

Like, why are we all pretending that that's not like, red flag, red flag, red flag? I don't know if, like, Pam, like, threatened her or something. Yeah. Or, like, gave her a lot of cookies or, like, was like, I'll do your dry cleaning for the rest of your life. But. It's very strange. There was some kind of direct connection between the two of them.

Or they were just trying to win her side there. Yeah, exactly. That's probably what it was. It wasn't the cookies, probably. Probably not, but now I want a cookie. You never know. I don't know. So Pam was constantly going back to the police with new information,

specifically when she caught wind that Russ was going to be retried. She had all these flashbacks and memories. Oh, wow. It's crazy. So four months after Russ's case was remanded, Pam went to the police and told them that, you know, she needed to tell them something that she hadn't before. She had a secret. She told them that she and Betsy had actually been involved in a sexual relationship together.

Okay. They were lovers. Okay. She said Betsy just loved her so, so, so, so much. And that even though pam didn't identify as a lesbian and she told betsy and i'm not a lesbian like this can't happen that she started to feel bad because she knew betsy was dying and it was quote a small small thing to give her okay uh i i don't even know what to say about that i literally don't have words nobody did

she said that in those intimate moments she quote replaced what a husband would be and the investigators and uh they really seem to believe pam and like almost patted her on the back for this saying that was just the problem solver in her that's a direct quote they literally were like that's the problem solver in you i what who are these people pretending to be a lesbian is the problem solver what that that did everyone collectively slam their head into a wall all at once like what is going on they all pressed an incorrect key this is truly wild so is truly wild. So if they did believe her, they were the only ones because Pam's acquaintances had literally described her as, quote, the most homophobic person they had ever met. Yeah, you think? Just the way she described that, I was like, wow, okay. Like, what the fuck? Yeah. And on top of that, Betsy's friends knew

that if anything like that had happened, they would know about it. They were like, we talked about like stuff like that all the time she would have told us like whatever yeah so they were shocked that pam was going this far with her stories now but this was all part of an elaborate scheme to make russ look like not only a shitty person but a violent man as well because she told the police one night russ came home and found her and betsy together and that when he saw them together he flipped out he grabbed hold of Pam shoving her up against a wall and told her quote if you ever come over here again it'll be the last time if you two fucking muff bumpers if I ever catch you guys again I'm gonna bury you in the backyard I'm very uncomfortable so by all of this and it's like you're making this so gross like that's

you're taking this into such a like a dark place such a yucky level and like what do you what are you doing like what are you doing i think this is the weirdest defense like because it's like you and also if you're a known homophobe, you think that's going to work? And you're going to sit like you're evil. Like, what the fuck? She is pure evil. She also told investigators. And this is a dead woman who can't have any say in this. Well, that's like.

She can't have any way of saying whether this is true or false. And the way you're talking about it is so fucking disrespectful. It's incredibly disrespectful. And if, which I don't believe that to be true in any way, shape, or form. Just because of the way that she presented it and the reason on which that she decided. disrespectful and if which i don't believe that to be true in any way shape or form just because of the way that she presented it and the reason on which that she she basically said she she was like well i pity fucked her she literally said that that's so disrespectful and so fucked up to say about somebody who has no way of defending themselves exactly no it's just like so fucked up

so she also told investigators that you know she forgot to tell them the first time around yeah um because she had so many memory problems uh yeah that's a big one to to forget well oh no this is a different thing she said she forgot to tell them there's another this other thing the first time around uh because of those memory problems that betsy was actually planning on leaving russ that night oh it's crazy that she just yeah oh i remember now and remember your something big was happening remember your first interview with police where you said like i didn't know them that well and like yeah they had some marriage problems but like oh and then actually that whole like pillow thing happened but now she was planning on leaving him yeah that would have been a big piece of the

case the first time around i would think and bobby won if you remember her from part one she was the um the friend at the chemo exactly she used to babysit betsy she said that that could not be further from the truth because betsy had actually recently told bobby that she wanted to move with russ to her parents home so she was not she wanted to move with him somewhere else not leave him entirely no i think pam knew that they had had marriage problems in the past and she was preying upon of course which is so fucked up of course because they had also gotten back together gone on this like beautiful celebration of life yeah thing he was like a good husband who arranged for her to swim with the dolphins because it was a lifelong dream it's like yeah shut up pam shut up pam so finally she didn't shut up the last information

that she came forward with before russ's second trial started was that and this was just a month before it was set to begin she told investigators another new memory had struck her oh she had seen russ the night of the murder and he was sitting outside of he and betsy's home in a silverish car with another man who she couldn't see very well oh wow and she said that he must have seen her too because he ducked down in his seat very quickly when he saw her she had already said multiple times that she had not seen Ross at the scene and she had already gone back and forth previously about what kind of car had been parked in the driveway that night because they they had two cars. She said it was either a silver Nissan Maxima,

originally, that was in the driveway, or a blue SUV. I can see how you could confuse those two. Silver sedans get mistaken for blue SUVs all the time. It's this weird phenomenon. Every time I see one, I'm like, was that? Oh, no, no. It's the other one.

Okay. Okay, yeah. But now she was saying, no, no, it must have been the blue SUV that was parked in the driveway because I saw Russ in that silver car outside. Oh, okay. When I was leaving. Yeah, that makes sense.

This is like one of those candles that have the hidden gems in it. And like you just light it and you just watch them all go. And it's like every once in a while, Pam's wick goes down and she's like, I have another one. Here's another one. Yeah. She literally said that she had the brain of a boxer. Like a fighter.

Yeah. Yeah. And they were like, well, you know, like that does make sense because sometimes when traumatic things happen, people do repress memories, which is true. Absolutely. But like, like this. This is a. It's a little, well, far-fetched. This is a very convenient suppressing of

memories a convenient very convenient uncovering of memories and yeah i was gonna say like the timing is very convenient for you to just have this yeah this myriad of epiphanies i really like the word myriad lately i don't know myriad is a great is a great word i like it it has a nice mouth feel to it it does it does but anyways while all that was going on joel schwartz was catching wind of this all and he's like awesome this is going to be a fun trial he's like great but at the same time he was receiving a whole slew of new information regarding this case first and foremost he learned that hey those 132 photos that an officer testified never developed uh they did develop and somebody anonymous anonymously sent them to him huh weird weird that never happens especially not in arkansas recently

yeah so crazy so weird that people just lie about this shit this is like shockingly yeah uh comparable like yeah never developed oh wait they did that this isn't gonna come out eventually exactly well and it was they did develop but they didn't paint the picture that the prosecution had hoped for. Oh, really? Crazy. Because instead they showed a very slight luminescence where they said there was like crazy amounts of luminescence.

And the thing about that is luminescence doesn't even necessarily have to be from blood. It could be, it could have been like the luminol reacting with other substances on the floor. Yeah. And it can be various biological fluids that it can light up. Yeah. You know. You know? I was like, you know better than I do. But Leah Askey Chaney said in the first trial that Russ had done this extensive cleanup after he had killed Betsy. But this time around, a crime scene investigator testified that when she was on the scene, there was no sign of cleanup. The floor was still dirty. Yeah. And especially like a crime scene investigator, they know what cleanup looks like.

Of course they do. That's literally their job. They go to crime scenes all the time. Like if it's still dirty, there was no cleanup. And that meant that the luminol absolutely could have been reacting with a different substance on the floor because the floor hadn't been cleaned recently. Yeah. Or like that day at all.

And for that very reason, it made sense that the photos only showed a slight luminescence. Hello. Now, that same crime scene investigator testified that the blood on the light switch in the bedroom, in her opinion, it was made by some kind of bloody towel. Because in looking at the print, there was a texture to it. It didn't look like a smear made by some kind of bloody towel because in looking at the print there was a texture to it it didn't look like a smear made by like fingers it looked like a towel had touched that okay sounds like somebody didn't want to leave their fingerprints on the switch and russ wouldn't have to worry about that because his fingerprints already would have been on his house yeah she also said that to her it looked like like Russ's slippers had been dipped in blood.

Because again, there weren't any prints that made it look like he was walking around after stepping in blood. And you can see a picture. I don't know if you looked last time. I did. The blood is really only on like the top and the side of them. There's not really any blood on the outsoles, which is like the bottom of your shoe. Like it's just, and it just kind of looks weird.

Like it doesn't look like blood splatter. Yeah. It almost looks like, like, like somebody did it on purpose. Like, it looks like it was placed there. Yeah, that's what I thought too. Yeah. Now, then there was the document that Pam had been insistent the investigators track down. So they ended up finding it on Betsy's computer.

For context, the document was pretty much word for word the account that Pam remembered the morning she was questioned, and I'll read part of it to you. Quote, I know we talked about this yesterday, but I feel I really need you to believe me. I really do feel that Russ is going to do something to me. He continued to tell me how much money he would make after I die. Last night was the worst. I fell asleep on the couch while watching TV. I woke up to Russ holding a pillow over my face. He said that he wanted me to know what dying feels like. I need to change my life insurance. Do you think I could put your name and you could help my daughters when they needed it? Oh, so they did.

She did want you to help them. Yes. If something happens to me, would you please show this to the police? So, yeah, that does not look good for Russ. The fact that they found that document on Betsy's computer. That does not look good for russ the fact that they found that document on betsy's computer that does not look good at all there are so many problems associated with this document though okay because in part one i said originally pam called this document an email but then she quickly changed the wording and everybody was like that was a little weird yeah so joel schwartz brought

in an expert who found that while this document was open on Betsy's computer, so was Microsoft Outlook, that email app that just like comes on your computer. Betsy didn't use Outlook. So when the words were copied and pasted into the Outlook to send off as an email, it never went through. Oh, okay. This was also the only document on Betsy's laptop with an unknown author listed. also the only document on Betsy's laptop with an unknown author listed. And a fragment of the email was associated with Microsoft Word 97, which Betsy didn't have installed on her computer. Oh, okay. So basically, if you're not catching my drift, it seemed like somebody had written

part of this email on their own computer and finished it up on Betsy's computer, thinking that they were sending themselves an email that they could later use to show Russ was a terrible person during Betsy's murder trial and to drive that point home even further. Betsy's laptop showed that it had been previously connected to a Wi-Fi named The Club, and it was connected to that Wi-Fi on a day where Pam was watching Betsy play tennis. So maybe she said to Betsy, hey, can I use your laptop for like blah, blah, blah. And Betsy was like, sure, I'm playing tennis. And Pam probably tried to email herself from Betsy's computer. To prove that theory one step further, there were cookies on Betsy's laptop that showed for a search of her own signature. Why would she search of her own signature. Huh. Why would she search for her own signature

when she writes it with her hand? Exactly. That doesn't make any sense. And the cookies blocked that search. So whoever was looking for this wasn't able to find her signature. Wow. Like, what? Wow. And just the fact that they were able to find all this is really fascinating to me. I know.

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This was an email between Lincoln County's Captain of Investigations, Mike Lang, and Lincoln County Prosecutor, Leah Askey Chaney the email which was from Lang was romantic in nature and said quote this is not a puppy dog crush on the hot girl in high school oh my god I'm out this is an epic shit stories are written about kind of love I will do my best to be everything you need. I hate that. Yeah, I hate it here. I hate that. I literally hate it here.

That is so gross. Yeah, heinous. Sorry. Gross. So, Jeanette Cooperman, who wrote the article that I linked in part one, she wrote an amazing piece for this. She pointed out that it was Mike Lang who had never mapped out Russ's cell phone data or gotten Pam's.

was Mike Lang who had never mapped out Russ's cell phone data or gotten Pam's. Was this intentional to be everything that Leah Askechaney needed him to be? Oh yeah. Probably. I would say so. Probably. He just laid it out there. Leah Askechaney was like that's a doctored email. Okay. Okay. So we'll get we'll get a little bit more into that later because there's a little more on that. Oh I'm interested. Yeah. So all of this new information in the case led judge stephen omer to his decision and on november 6 2015 russ was acquitted whoa was acquitted look at that and the judge said that the investigation carried out by lincoln county investigators was quote unquote rather disturbing it was rubbish was rubbish absolute rubbish was garbage that's wild yeah so with that russ was free to go but this story is far from alpha

in 2016 he actually sued the prosecutors and the detectives on the case for quote unquote fabricated evidence ignoring and ignoring exonerating evidence, and failure to investigate the other obvious suspect. He got a $2 million settlement. Wow. But justice still had not been served. No, it has not. Pam Hupp was still walking free, and that made him, him? That made him.

That made him and his lawyer incredibly uneasy. Yeah, me too. Samesies. So Schwartz contacted the U.S. Attorney's Office and was like, please review this case now that we'd had the wrong person in prison and we need to get the right person behind bars because i'm afraid if we don't somebody else is going to die for sure so pam hub stayed quiet and out of the ears of police for about nine months but then nine months nine months but then

on the afternoon of august 16th 2016 she called 911 saying that police needed to come out right away because a man was breaking into her house so there was two 911 calls she's like running into the house in one of them and then in the second one she's screaming saying that the man is running toward her she's barricaded in her bedroom and then the 911 operator hears five gunshots and pam tells her that she shot the man as he was making his way toward her so the 911 operator says do you like do you have any idea who this person is and she says i have no idea so the police arrive on scene and they find an unidentified man lying on the floor just outside of Pam's bedroom door. He didn't have any identification on him, but he did

have $900 in his pocket, along with a pen and a note that seemed to be some kind of instructions. Some of the things in the note were, quote, go to Pam's house, get Russ's money, take Pam back to Woodpile behind Russ's house. What? So the whole situation was bizarre to say the least what bizarre to walk into room please walk into room take this blah blah bloody blah blah wood pile so they were like okay like you're gonna need to come down to the station with us because this is rather confusing because this is strange and unusual and i don't know what to do absolutely i love the station i love the station like i live there so she explained to them that she had been out shopping earlier in the day and then as she was pulling into her driveway the silver car pulled up and a man got out from the passenger side and then the car sped away into the day but that the

man who got out of the car got into her car wielding a knife i don't know and he said that he needed to get russ's money and while he said it he looked back behind his shoulder and at that moment pam said she was able to knock the knife out of his hand and run inside to go call 9-1-1 wow and she's such a hero like such a such a final girl wow she ran back to her bedroom and as she called 9-1-1 she got her gun out for protection. Confusing why she didn't just lock the door behind her, but hey, call me crazy. You know, chaos. Chaos. The man, she said, came back inside with the knife and started making his way toward her.

And this is when she just started pulling the trigger until she couldn't anymore. Until she emptied out the gun. Okay. So when asked what she thought this was all about, she told investigators that she believed this man was looking for the life insurance money that she had got when betsy died she was basically trying to say that this man who broke into her car and then her home was a hired hitman most likely hired by russ to get the money he believed was his which it's also like so okay like very cool that you're like i know exactly why this happened.

Exactly. Let me lay it out for you. Yes. And then, too, like, nobody believes you have that in cash just lying around your house. No. Like, I don't know a lot of people that would be like, she probably has all of that. Exactly. Just lying on a table.

I also don't know. That I can just take. Like, I don't know a lot about hitmen, personally. I don't either. But I don't know if they, like, bring their money with them either. But I don't know if they bring their money with them. Usually they have to do the hit first. He got paid, put it in his pocket. And then just went out to do it. And did the hit with that money in his pocket. Yeah.

I mean, unless it was some kind of down payment to secure him as a hitman. But even that, it's like, wouldn't you take that out of your pocket and put it in your wallet or something and leave it in your car? Probably. I don't know if you'd keep that like right in your pocket as you're doing the hit but again I don't do hits and I don't know a lot of people who do no no me I don't know any so I don't I don't know if you keep it in your pocket when you do that but it to me it seems risky yeah seems risky and also it was in a plastic bag. So it was $900, a pen, and this note in a plastic bag in his pocket. So neat and tidy.

Neat and tidy. Very neat and tidy. So while a couple of investigators talked to Pam to figure out what the fuck was going on here, because she knew. She was like, I know exactly what's going on here. Yeah, she was like, you don't need to investigate this. Like, I investigated it. Case closed.

Don't, don't, bye. So while they were talking to her, a couple of other investigators assigned to the case had to figure out who this guy was because he didn't have any identification so they were able to fingerprint him and id him as lewis gumpenberger okay lewis gumpenberger was 33 years old he was the father of two children oh his friends and family said that he was like the funniest guy who just loved to make people laugh and that even though he was no longer with the mother of his children the two of them worked together seamlessly to co-parent and like he doesn't sound like a hitman no definitely not okay lewis loved his kids and would have done anything for him or for them so the investigators quickly learned that his

mother margaret who he lived with had reported him missing he hadn't shown up for a job interview that he was scheduled for, and she noticed also that his wallet and cigarettes were still at home, and he never left home without those or without leaving her a note telling her where he was going. So the investigators had to go out to her house and deliver the news that he had been killed. And when they explained this whole situation that led to his death, his mom was appalled, and she told the investigators that there was no way he could have ever broken into somebody's house and done something like this. She said he, quote unquote, couldn't even hold a spoon. Oh, no. Because back in 2005, he had been in a really bad car accident and suffered a traumatic brain injury that left him with a ton of damage to his body.

He had trouble walking, running, and even talking. Wow. So at first, the police were stumped about what the hell was going on here. But then they got a call from the St. Charles County Police, and they were informed that they should speak with a woman named Carol Alford, who had reported an interesting incident that sounded like it might have been linked to this. And that incident had happened four months before. So Carol was home one day, and she was outside with her dog when this black SUV pulls up in front of her house.

Now, the woman inside asked Carol if she babysat, which Carol was like, what? And she said, no, I don't. And actually, her direct quote was, nah, bitch. Nah, bitch. Which I was like, Carol for the win. She was like, I don't and actually her direct quote was nah bitch nah bitch which i was like carol for the win she was like i don't babysit and the woman in the car quickly changed the subject and she was like oh i'm sorry i should introduce myself i'm so and so i'm a dateline producer now at this point in time dateline had already done a couple did a couple of specials about betsy's murder oh wow

there i think they've done five in total, and at this point, I believe three were already out. So this Dateline producer told Carol that they needed somebody to record a soundbite for their show. It was going to be a reenactment of a 911 call, and if Carol wanted the job, there would be a thousand dollars cash in it for her. So Carol was like, okay, no, like something is super weird about this but she said that the comment the woman had made about babysitting stuck with her and she was worried that this lady was trying to do something in the neighborhood to like hurt kids like she was like why did she say something about babysitting yeah that's weird so she was like i want to know what she's up to so she brought her dog inside i know carol's a bad bitch wow she also risky i'm scared for you

but like what a hero yeah also weird link carol had beaten cancer a couple of times wow yeah whoa that's sometimes the universe man i know i actually just got chills yeah sometimes the universe just knows what to do it really does so carol brings her dog inside she grabs a pocket knife and hides it in the sleeve of her hoodie. And she also dialed 911 and just like left it dialed. Didn't call yet. Carol watched Dateline. Carol knew what the fuck was up.

She knows. So she hops in the SUV with the blonde producer lady claiming to be from Dateline. The woman said that they were going to this certain area where they had rented a house to use for production purposes but when she said the area that they were headed to carol all of a sudden felt the hair on the back of her neck stand up because she knew this area and she knew full well that there were not any houses in that area oh i'm so worried for her like don't ever do this anybody no like like amazing that carol did like yeah i'm glad that this happened as part of the story but but whoo whoo so scary so at this point she's trying to be quick on her feet and figure out how to get the hell out of that car and that's when she looked down and realized that

she actually wasn't wearing any shoes oh man because this all happened so quickly so she asked the woman to turn around and head back to her house she's like i have to grab my shoes and the lady's like no you don't need shoes like we're just going to this house like whatever and she was like no i need shoes okay well i also didn't lock my door so i need to go back turn around and i'll do your soundbite after so at that point the quote-unquote producer turned around and headed back to carol's place so carol went inside pretending to lock the door and in the back of her mind she knew that her security camera was getting a good look at this car parked outside waiting for her nice capturing the license plate and all wow carol

and she said she did it on purpose because she wanted to make sure that her camera got the license plate in case this lady ended up kidnapping her wow i'm obsessed with carol carol alford in case you're googling it man Man, I am. So Carol's inside like, okay, what the fuck am I going to do? Like this lady's sitting outside. She's waiting for me. Something fishy is going on here. So she goes back outside and she pretends to be on the phone. And she told the woman, I'm sorry, I can't go back and do the soundbite with you. I'm on the phone with my son's school. He's sick and I have to go pick him up wow quick on her feet wow quick on her bare feet look yeah those feet man so the woman tried to argue with her and was like no it's fine like this is gonna

be so quick like you just have to come and she was like lady i gotta get my kid yeah like my son is sick get out of here so at that point as she's talking to this lady carol notices that this lady glances up and she quickly goes you have security cameras and yeets her head back into her vehicle she goes you have cameras and carol goes uh-huh is that a problem she goes uh-huh and i have a knife and i have 911 dialed on my phone and i'm about to call so maybe you should dip bitch not a direct quote but i did get really into it for a second and you know what i feel like like Carol has that energy. And I love it.

She does. She absolutely does. I'm for that. She did answer that babysitting question with knobbitch. Knobbitch. The best. That's wild. Knobbitch.

So wild. The producer that I'm sure you all know by this point is Pamela Hupp. Yeah. Speeds away into the day. Wow. And Carol calls 911. But they're like, ah, they're working on it. Yeah. So upon hearing that wild tale, the police working this whole investigation with Pam's

home and Lewis are able to put two and two together, especially after getting the license plate that Carol's security camera picked up. Because not only did the woman inside bear a strong resemblance to Pam Hupp before she eated her head back inside the car, but the 2016 GMC Acadia was registered to a business that Pamela and her husband owned together. Ah, look at that. And in addition to that, police were able to determine that the serial numbers on four of the bills that were found in Lewis Gumpenberger's pocket sequentially matched with the serial number of a hundred dollar bill that Pam had. Wow. Investigative work.

It actually happens sometimes. I was just going to say it's crazy how it's like just slingshotted from one end of investigative skills to the other. Yeah, because this is a different police department. This is a different department. Exactly. Like some some do a great job. do some some kill it yeah some double it so yeah so clearly pam had set this entire thing up she had been strolling the streets trolling the streets both for at least four months looking for a victim to make it look like Russ was using his newfound freedom to take a hit out on

her. That is so scary. Yeah. And so like that's so much commitment to this. That's so much like malice of forethought of this whole thing. Like that is. Yeah. Wow. And imagine being Carol and like knowing that you were the intended victim. And then when that didn't work, she somehow became acquainted with Louis Kumpenberger. And obviously we already know that she's a disgusting monster. But Louis's family and friends confirmed what a monster Pam really was because they said it was clear that when you spoke to him, he had some kind of mental impairment. Wow. She's a fucking piece of shit. She's disgusting.

Like as if we didn't know that before. fucking piece of shit she's disgusting like as if we didn't know that before and this piece about um so in the note it said like bring pam to the wood pile behind russ's house yeah russ so they have to tell russ obviously that this is going on yeah and he's like i don't have a wood pile by my house like what the fuck is she talking about like what fucking wood pile oh what fucking wood pile he was like my dad has a wood at his house. So he goes and tells the neighbors or he goes and tells his dad and he finds out that his dad's neighbors have security cameras. They caught Pam going one way down the street and quickly the other way down the street. So she knew that he had a fucking woodpile. His father had a woodpile at his house.

Wow. Yeah. Wow. father had a wood pile at his house wow yeah wow like she was so fucked up but like doing some like investigative work on her own like to make sure she could like get away with this planning this took she laid her head on her pillow every night knowing what she was doing wow yeah what an evil snake this is crazy snake i did not see it going this far so on august 23rd one week after pam shot lewis gunnberger to death she was arrested at her home good she immediately requested to speak with an attorney wow sure so when they brought her to the station they read her rights and they had her sign off on some paperwork recognizing, you know, like relating to her arrest. And then the two officers left her in the interrogation room.

So there's footage of this. It shows her grab a quick sip of water from a water bottle that they left her, but they also left a pen on the table. And slowly and very carefully, she takes that pen off the table and tucks it behind her back, presumably like in her pocket or maybe in her pants and then she says can i go to the bathroom so they have a female officer bring her to the bathroom and while she's in the bathroom she attempts suicide by repeatedly stabbing herself in the neck and both wrists with a pen a pen what okay i saw a mugshot of her with like bandages on her neck and i've been waiting for the

explanation holy shit yeah and um if you want to google it there's pictures of her injuries and they are the most disturbing thing i've ever seen in my life oh no like i was like what a way to try and go oh my god oh no so she was able to be saved and quickly was placed on suicide watch upon arriving in jail where she belonged this entire fucking time and the officers obviously took this suicide attempt as a consciousness of guilt and her bail was set at two million dollars yeah i would say that's a good indication i would say along with literally every other shred of evidence that you have against her correct so originally during her indictment in 2017 she pleaded not guilty but then upon learning that the state was seeking the death penalty she entered an alford plea in june of 2019 whoa yeah

weird right yeah do that west memphis three whoa so in taking the Alford plea, in case you're not sure what that is, you recognize that the state has enough evidence to convict you of a crime, but you're able to maintain your innocence. Yeah. Whether that's in or out of prison. Obviously, she was going to be in prison. But at the point where she took the Alford plea, and the reason why she took it is because it took the death penalty off of the table ah so she was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole for the murder of lewis gumpenberger wow now a couple of more skeletons in pam's closet came out during the trial specifically her mother's suspicious death back in october of 2012. yeah i was gonna ask about that i'm gonna tell you about it okay good so during russ's original trial pam was maintaining her innocence and saying that she would really have no motive to kill betsy for life insurance money because she was the beneficiary of her mother's life insurance policy and she told the investigators quote i really hate to say it if i wanted money my mom's worth half a million that i get when she dies my mom has dementia and doesn't have half the time know Yeah, you know what?

That helped. Yeah. That helped with your plea of innocence. Yeah, I told you. Yeah, okay. Thank you. I could just kill my Yeah. You know what? That helped. That helped. Yeah. That helped with your plea of innocence. Yeah. I told. Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

I could just kill my mom if I wanted to. Thank you, Pam. Yeah. She also said that she could have killed her husband because he had a life insurance policy. And she also said like, well, my son has a life insurance policy and I know that I get that money if he dies. Like, do I want him to die? No, but I get the money if he does.

Yeah. All of this are things that normal people say. So yeah, absolutely. She also said. I feel like this is very much helping your case thank you they were like do you have life insurance and she goes no I don't believe in it yeah no I don't believe in it yeah absolutely for me absolutely but I believe that other people should so I can profit off of their murders and deaths thank you correct yes okay wow okay Pam so she said that during the first trial yeah I could just kill my mom and then then her, like, her mom had died. Yeah.

So cool. So Shirley had been in the hospital before she died and was complaining of back pain, so she was being treated for that. So on October 29th, she spent the night at Pam's house, and then Pam brought her back to her assisted living on the 30th of October. And she told the coordinator of the home that Shirley wouldn't be at dinner that night. She would be because she was on medication for her back that made her really tired. And she probably wouldn't be at breakfast the next morning, but that she should definitely be present at lunch. And if she's not present at lunch, go go check on her.

And they're the family like because Pam had a brother, too. She had like a couple of siblings, but I think her and her brother kind of, worked together to take care of her mom. And they had a policy in place where if Shirley didn't show up to any of the meals, that the family was to be called. Okay. But they weren't called that day because Pam had told them she's not going to show up. Yeah, conveniently. Yeah, crazy. So when Shirley didn't show up for lunch like she was supposed to,

one of the attendants at the home went to check on her. And like I said earlier, they found her body lying in the grass beneath the balcony and she was still wearing her pajamas. Oh, that hurts my heart. Horrific. In every way. She had fallen three stories down. So four of the metal balusters, is that how you say that? Yeah, I think that is how you say it. So four of them on her patio were dented out which made a three foot square opening in the balcony and two of them had broken off completely and were laying next to shirley's body okay so when the autopsy was completed she had eight times the usual dose of ambien in her system oh Oh, come on. Yeah. Come on. But because she was suffering from

Alzheimer's at the time of her death, they thought, you know, maybe she forgot how much she took and ended up taking way more. Yeah. And she accidentally slipped off the balcony. So at first, the medical examiner did rule her death an accident. But years later, when everything came out about Pam and her case, the death was actually changed to undetermined. Really? So far, Pam hasn't been charged with anything relating to her mom's death, but it's definitely important to note that she was one of the beneficiaries of her mother's life insurance, and that was clearly her M.O. Mm-hmm.

And ultimately, she did not get the money she thought she was going to get because her mother's policy was split between all of the children. And she had a policy in place that was designed to pay for funeral expenses. So Pam only ended up getting $3,589. Wow. And she was like, I get half a million. I get half a million. If I really wanted to.

My mom's worth half a million and I'm her beneficiary. Not the only one just that I was like I was just looking at like the the scene like just the photos of the balcony and everything and also like her mom horrible like so precious so like she's such a precious looking lady yes and like I just I can't stop thinking about her. Falling like that? Doing that. To her. To your mother. Like, I can't. Like, that is so beyond any kind of.

She's a monster. And we can't say that she did it because it's actually not being investigated right now. That's really crazy. Like, it's not an open investigation. I don't know if maybe they're trying to finish up with other stuff that I'm going to tell you about in a minute and then move on to that. Like, maybe it's, like, one piece at a time. It's, like, Betsy who's fighting breast cancer and, like, terminal breast cancer and trying to live out her last days the best she can.

Yep. And it's, like, and then, like, someone with a traumatic brain injury, like, Lewis who, like, did nothing. Did nothing wrong. And was just going to scoop Carol off the fucking sidewalk, walking her dog. Yep. Like what the fuck? She doesn't give a fuck. She has no regard for human life whatsoever.

And she's just trolling around finding anybody. She knows it's, wow. Yeah, it doesn't even matter who it is. So another amazing thing, though, that happened once the right person was behind bars was that betsy's case was finally reopened good and pam was officially charged with her murder on july 12th 2021 whoa so the lincoln county prosecutor working on the case now is great his name is mike wood and he said that they will be seeking the death penalty for betsy's case wow he said quote and it's so funny sometimes you

just like walk me into this shit oh i'm glad you set it up so perfectly it's a sister thing it's just like it's really he said quote one of the aggravating factors we're obviously able to rely on with the death penalty was that she murdered for the insurance money but i will specifically say this case struck very deep into our souls and into our consciousness with a level of depravity not regularly seen what i can say is that we have a person who not only murdered her friend then mutilated the body staged the scene testified against an innocent man and then once she was acquitted what excuse me once he was acquitted went back and murdered somebody in saint charles county to prevent herself from being considered a suspect i can't pick a case more depraved than that it's so it's the length she was going to unreal just to get a life insurance but like

like i know money like is the root of all evil i know that but like damn but it's like she also had a business with her husband where they were like flipping houses and like like she like make your own money don't kill people because they have money. Well and she honestly. And like they didn't even have money. It was a policy. You can tell her evil. Like you know some people the evil seeps out.

You can see it. And it starts changing their features and shit. Because you can see that picture. There's a picture of her with her mom. Like early. Like obviously before everything. Yeah. And she looks like a pretty like normal looking woman.

Just like whatever. You see her later and you're like holy shit i'm like it is like that she has like the um bandages around her neck the evil has totally seeped out she looks evil it's it's true and her in court and shit like she looks like a scary scary person she's terrifying wow and mike said of the invest mike wood said of the investigation quote this was the poorest example of investigative work i or members of my team have ever seen yeah it was driven by ego and a prosecutor who was working toward an agenda rather than the truth which is so sad yeah like we're supposed to put our full fucking trust in these people and shit like this happens yep where egos come into it and biases come into it like no the system is so your literal

job is to be unbiased and check your fucking ego at the door and guess what mike wood is doing just that hell yeah he looks into quote-unquote potential prosecutorial and police misconduct hell yeah they have said that the initial investigators ignored crucial evidence and even witnesses yeah witnesses i believe it and the judge from the first trial chris kunza menemeyer has had four cases reversed by the appeals court and is suspended without pay i was just gonna say if you have that many like come on four cases reversed suspended without pay goodbye your your judgment is clearly not right to jail like right to jail right to jail um and betsy's daughters are actually still waiting to hear about an appeal that they filed back in 2016

because this was, like, before anything had happened with Pam going to prison. And that original judge ruled that because the life insurance policy didn't have any instructions. And every, like, the original life insurance policy, there were no instructions. So technically the money was rightfully Pam's. Oh, on paper and that's tough that shit is so specific and you have to be like with your will and testament and all that and your state and everything you have to be so specific and even if you are sometimes like sometimes people can twist it people still twist it and people will so every update that i've read on this case says that there should be a conclusion very soon oh i hope so one of them that i read said that they were hoping to have like some kind of conclusion by december but oh wow obviously that didn't happen

so hopefully we're rocking and rolling and that there's going to be like some news in the new year an update and there's also actually going to be i think um a limited series made about the case it's actually being made right now i'm pretty sure that's gonna star Renee Zellweger I just saw that I just saw her in costume and she really looks like Pam Puppet it's scary disturbing it's like very disturbing it's scary I think it's supposed to come out in 2022 yeah and based off it's actually based off of the podcast The Thing About Pam which is hosted by the one the only keith morrison and i didn't even fucking know that wow somebody on patreon was like oh yeah like i've heard this case before and you guys were talking about keith morrison in part one he has a whole podcast about it and we had

no idea i didn't know look at that here i am behind on keith things i'm sorry friend your friend yeah we're we're supposed to be friends here. Wow. Yeah, sorry, Keith. Wow. I'll get back on my shit. Some friend you are. I'll get on it. Don't worry. 2022, I'm on it. I am so hoping that, like, in the next couple of months, we have an update on this case.

I hope we have a hell of an update. This case was one of the most bananas that I have ever read. You did an amazing job telling it. I was riveted. Riveted. I was literally like, what's going to happen? What is gonna what is it oh man that's crazy thank you for bringing that into my life you're welcome i'm glad that russ is out i know i'm glad that pam is in i know and i just hope that betsy um betsy's daughters get that i was just gonna say and i really hope her

daughters get because everything that they did they lost their mom and then in a horrific way exactly like they didn't they just got nothing that they deserved yeah nothing that betsy wanted them to have and well that's he wanted them to have it yeah especially according to that quote-unquote document she said like please help my daughters and why is nobody looking at that i know but then it's because but then it's because i'm and i'm like cool. It was a bullshit one. Such a bummer. But I'm sure she would have wanted her daughter's taken care of. Of course.

Ugh. So yeah, that is the case of Pamela Hupp. Pamela Hupp. Pamela, fuck you. Never coming out. Thank goodness. See ya. Ugh.

Wow. Seriously. I don't even know how to end it. I'm just like, wow. I can't believe it's over. But it's not even over. I know. We gonna we're gonna have an update soon i hope i know so with that we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird i don't have to tell you not to keep it this weird and if you think that i have to tell you to keep it this weird you're

already keeping it too. I love you.