Morbid - Episode 302: Albert Fish Part 1

Episode Date: February 28, 2022

This is such a highly requested case that Alaina decided to take one for the team and dive deep into the world that was Albert Fish. Albert Fish had an incredibly abusive childhood starting from when he was 5 years old and had to be placed into an orphanage. He experienced all kinds of torture and abuse and it was there that he realized he was aroused by not only the pain he was suffering but the pain inflicted upon others. In part one we’ll cover Fish’s first crimes, including his first murder which was the brutal slaying of Francis McDonnell, an eight year old boy. "We Saw Nuns Kill Children: The Ghosts of St. Joseph's Orphanage" by Christine Kenneally Deranged by Harold Shechter Confessions of a Cannibal by Robert Keller   As always, a huge thank you to our sponsors: GoodRX: for simple, smart savings on your prescriptions, check GoodRx. Go to GoodRX.com/morbid Peloton: Visit onepeloton.com to learn more MeUndies: To get 15% off your first order, free shipping, and a 100% satisfaction guarantee, go to  MeUndies.com/MORBID Blueland: Right now, you can get 20% off your first order when you go to Blueland.com/MORBID See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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of your home. Download the free Angie mobile app today or visit Angie.com. That's ANGI.com. Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alena. And this is morbid. And you know what? There's a lot going on in the world right now. What I might say. It is serious and it is scary and it is heavy and it's something that none of us can fathom,

you know, none of us over here, I mean, in the United States can fathom really dealing with right up front. No. But we just wanted to send a big, like before we got into anything. We just wanted to say to any of our listeners who in any way are connected to Ukraine and what's going on with Russian troops invading, our thoughts are literally, constantly with you, I can't stop thinking about this. No, it's horrible. It's horrible. I literally can't wrap my brain around it, how scary it must be.

All we can hope for is your continued safety, your families continued safety, your friends continued safety. I really hope that this somehow can be resolved in a way that is quick and without a piece more peaceful in an house. Yeah, just any kind of, any piece, seriously. But it's terrifying. And we just wanted to tell you, like we stand with you, our thoughts are with you.

Whatever we can do, we're gonna try to do from over here. But just know that we do not see this as like, oh, it's happening a long way away. Exactly. It looks like, no, it's very much. We know that we have listeners over there. We know we have listeners who are connected in some way over there.

And I can't find everybody over there right now. Anybody really around Ukraine is probably feeling this too. So it's just, it's a lot. And it's been weighing really on my brain and my heart. So we just wanted to tell you at least, like, in a life you were so, so sorry that this is happening. I just can't imagine.

And like the videos of like parents with their children and putting children on trains and like, you know, they're staying behind. So it's heartbreaking. Or just like waking up and hearing bombs going off. Like next to your house above your house. I can't imagine. My brain can't comprehend it and that's because I'm a very privileged person. I can recognize that for sure, but I my empathy is like through the roof right now for you guys.

I can't imagine, but I really hope that this takes a turn somehow. I'm also not super well versed on wartime things. So I don't either. Anytime there's an update, I always end up having to research a ton to figure out what is actually happening. And John's really good at explaining this stuff in one way. In terms, he's really good at this. So I always end up going to him and being like, so what does this mean? What does this mean? What does this mean that this

just happened? But yeah, we've been talking about it a lot in our house. So we just wanted to send our love and our thoughts and big safety vibes to you and yours because definitely it's scary. And we recognize that for sure. Yeah. So we'd really just wanted to touch upon that. and we recognize that for sure. So we really just wanted to touch upon that, but this is also just a really long episode. So we're not gonna do any more like chit-chatting before it. Yeah. I think I mentioned in the last episode,

we did the lighthouse, the spooky lighthouse, to keep it light. And everybody was psyched about it, which was cool. I'm glad you guys really liked that one. Yeah, that'll be a fun series to do, because we got a ton of requests for other lighthouses. Which is great. Which I'm stoked on.

I'm ready to do one next week. Oh, I'm ready to, we're gonna start writing down like a schedule of them so we can really hit like, you know, everywhere in the US, everywhere outside of the US, there's so many lighthouses. All of the lighthouses. And they're all fucking haunted.

So we gotta do it. But I mentioned in that episode that we were doing something more like haunted and a little looser because we were gonna be hitting a big one. Oh yeah. And everybody's like, I wonder what it is. What could it be?

Well, here it is. We are only in part one because this is definitely gonna be at least a part two. Maybe you might have a part three because there's just so much. Yeah. We are covering Albert Fish. Yay! This is one that I knew I was going to cover eventually some day and we've gotten a massive amount of requests for it over the years. Oh yeah. But it was just one of those that I was like, all right, I got to really like work myself up to get into this one because I knew it was gonna be

a gnarly ride. I had no idea how gnarly a ride it was gonna be. Yeah. I had read this case a long time ago. It's one of those that if you start reading about true crime cases, this is one that you're definitely gonna come across. You're gonna read, you know, I'm sure a lot of you, if you know this case, you know

the gray spud. Yep. Victim. Yep. You know the horrific letter that came along with that. And that's really this, and you know his, you know, tendency to hurt himself. Yeah. You stick pins and needles in his body.

We're going to get to all of that. But man, there's a lot more. And it's weird because I was reading and I'm like, why don't I hear about this more? Like why didn't I read more about this stuff? Oh that's weird. When you go back into newspapers of this time when all this started happening,

there's a lot more to this story. It's crazy. Okay, let's go. It's really insane. So I just right up front, right off the bat, I will give another warning in part two, just so everybody knows this a doozy. This is horrific. It involves children. It involves rape. It involves any anything horrible you can think right now that might be a trigger. It's here. So I just want you to know that venture at your

own risk. I'm going to this part one, we are not going to get to the Grace Bud murder. Okay. Because there's two more before that. Oh shit. And they're just as brutal. Of course. So murder. And they are victims, they're children. And they definitely deserve to be talked about much more than just like, and then there was two more before that, which I feel like when I was reading a lot, I could find like very little about that, and then I hit like a treasure trove of like, newspaper articles. So, we're going to talk about one victim in particular, the first one, like a lot. And there's not going to be any of those letters yet, that's going to be in part two. Yeah. When I do read those letters, I'm probably going

to paraphrase a little bit because there's some parts of those letters that I literally can't read out loud. I literally will not be able to bring myself to read out loud, but they will be in there. So just know that's coming in part two because I know people know those letters. But let's start at the beginning.

Okay. Shall we? I guess we shall. Let's drop in. So Albert Fish was actually born Hamilton Howard Albert Fish. Hamilton. And his actual given name was Hamilton Howard Fish. He was born on May 19th, 1870. He was born in Washington DC to Randall and Ellen Fish.

Randall was 75 years old when his son was born. Oh, wow. And Ellen was 43. Okay. Randall was a years old when his son was born. Oh, wow. And Ellen was 43. Okay. Randall was a riverboat captain. He was, Albert was the youngest of four children. I'll get to why he is called Albert in a second, by the way. Okay. He was the youngest of four children, Walter, Annie, and Edwin,

were his siblings. And Randall, the father actually died by the time Albert was five. Oh, that's sad. Because he was 75 when he was born. Yeah, that makes sense. Now, like I said, he is known as Albert, but his given name is Hamilton. Well, I'll throw his childhood and into his teens, schoolmates would call him Ham and Eggs Hamilton, and he hated it.

So he just decided he was like, you know what, he was 15 years old and he was like, I want to change it. So he decided to be called Albert. He chose that name because he had a very young sibling who passed away. That was named Albert. So he decided to take the name. Weird that that was like thoughtful. Albert Fish is a actual like living breathing monster on earth, like a demon from the pits of whatever is beneath us. Understate. And, but he is also the weirdest fucking conundrum of a human being because there's those little glimmers. He had a very dichotomy of a personality, for sure.

He could turn, which is, it's much scarier that he was able to turn it off at times. Yeah. Because to me, that shows that he's gonna complete control of it, right? Which is even scarier, but you'll see, there's a lot of points where you're like, what? Like, why?

I'm sorry. He was a demon though, what? So when his father died, his mother was kind of in dire straits financially. She was very reliant on him for the money situation, and she was financially and emotionally unable to support the children at that time. And so she unfortunately had to place them all into orphanages. Oh, she figured it out. This was pretty common at that time when people couldn't pay for their children essentially.

They would just place them into orphanages until they could. Oh, man. So this isn't like a weird thing for the time, but the orphanage that they were all placed in like different orphanages, which is super sad. Yeah. And this orphanage that Albert was placed in was St. John's and he was five. Oh my God. St. John's year old. So it's like you've been with your parents for five years.

Yeah. You know, you know, you know who your parents are. And St. John's was horrific. She seemed, and you know what? The mom seemed to honestly be trying to get it together to support them as a single mother at the time. There's really no, like, verifiable reports that there was, like, abuse or anything like that in the home by either parent. There's some things that you'll see that's like, oh, the mom was abusive, but there's

literally no verifiable. Verified. The back of the year. There's really not. And most reports say there was just nothing reported. That's kind of shitty. That if that didn didn't happen that it goes down to history as an abuse of households. And again, obviously now we look at this and you're like I would never put my child in a fucking orphanage. Of course. But at the time this was a very like

dire straight situation and this is what people did. Right. So I'm not going to say the way to like what I think about this. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our newest series, we look at the Kids for Cash Scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers and often for

committing only minor offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines. The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would shatter the lives of countless children and force a heated debate about punishment, an America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder App. Now, there was a history of mental illness in this family, the fish family. That was dug up. There's a book that I used for this case called Daringed and it's by Harold Schechter.

It's a crazy book about this case, but in that he says that there was an uncle who suffered from religious psychosis. There was a half brother that was confined to a state hospital for the insane. That's the actual phrase that was used. There was hydrocephalus in one of the brothers, which is not a mental illness, but it's like a physical abnormality. It's what basically it's like water,

basically on the brain. So it can be described. There was also one of his sisters had what he referred to as a mental affliction. His mother actually neighbor said that she would sometimes hear voices, she would walk around the street and see things. Like, seems like there was like at least some stuff going on. Yeah, maybe was already in there. Right. Obviously that does not create a murder. No. The orphanage did. I can tell you that much. It seems it was definitely not his parents and not

just mental illness, but actually the orphanage that really triggered whatever monster he had lying dormant in his five-year-olds little body. He said over and over that the orphanage and the people who ran it were the ones to show him pain first. Oh, that's really sad. And they really showed him how fragile humanity is in people. Now, I did a little dive into orphanages at this time. I don't recommend you do that. I'm just gonna tell you, they were hell.

Yeah. Like actual hell on earth. These are orphans, like actual children who have lost their parents. And these nuns who ran these orphanages are fucking evil. It's so crazy too, because they're nuns. That's the thing that's the scariest thing.

And let me tell you, the ones that I was reading about, the ones that, you know ones that did these awful things, they're Albert Fish. Right, they're killers. They're murderers, they're torturers, they're just as bad as he is these days. It's wild. In fact, I read an article,

and I'll link it in the show notes because if you want to take a ride into it, I'm telling you it is a tough read. But it's about St. Joseph's orphanage in Burlington, Vermont, where a woman named Sally actually told her story. She was an orphan there. And she said when she was about six, she was walking with a nun outside, like being escorted into another building.

And she described seeing a nun throw a fucking child out a window to their death. And when she looked up at the nun who was walking her to the other building, she said she just looked at her and said, sister, because she was just like, what the fuck did I just see? Right. And I guess the nun pulled her by the ear off to the side and said, you have a vivid imagination. We're going to have to do something about you, child.

Yeah. I'd be like, uh, no, ma'am, I just witnessed a murder, a full, blown murder. She described awful things. And these other children described awful things that I can't even describe to you. There was one of them said that she watched a nun literally slam a baby's head into a table until it stopped crying. Oh, no, no, no, no, okay, you can stop there. There's even more shit than that. How?

They did awful thing. They should, these nuns that ran that shit should be rotting in the deepest pits of whatever the fuck hell exists for it. I don't know what, whatever bad shit is happening on the other side, I hope they are in the burning inferno because the shit you will read in this article will change you. It's, you're gonna be forever changed reading this article when we just tell you.

And the fact that they, it's, these were children who were orphans. Yeah. The most vulnerable people in our entire society, little baby orphans. Yeah. And you're literally just torturing them for your own pleasure.

Like, what is wrong with you? Well, that's the thing. It's like, what do you get out of throwing a child out of the window? Yes. Laming a baby's head. And these people are just as bad as Albert Fish, but they got to hide behind this wall of societal acceptance

to do it. And that's what's, and they got to have complete control over these kids. They got to literally confine them to a building where they could torture them at their will. And it's like, how does nobody realize that this is going on? Oh, that's what's so sad in these poor kids now that are adults and having to dig all this shit up.

I can't even imagine. It's wild when you really get into it, and it happened everywhere. Oh, it's... And this St. John's was no different. These kids at this one where Albert Fish was were beaten. They were physically abused regularly. Kids and you know, he said he started, this is where he discovered that he actually liked pain. Okay. And he would actually get like aroused getting beaten. Uh-huh. He also found pleasure in watching other kids get beaten.

That's what he had found. And this particular orphanage also had a form of discipline called shame punishment, where they would strip the child naked, and then beat them in front of all the others. What the f-? Whose brain even goes there? Yeah. That's so sexually twisted. Oh, like beyond. That's like, it makes me sexually twisted. Oh, like beyond.

That's like, it makes me nauseous. Oh, when you read that article, it's... I'm not going to, like, I don't recommend you do it. I'm dead. That's why I'm telling everybody, like, I know I'm like really harping on it. But like, if you really do want to read, I'm going to share it because it's an important article, I think. Yeah, of course. And the person who wrote it, which I will make sure I mention them in the show notes, did an amazing job at it.

And I mean, these former orphans who told their stories are outrageously brave. Yeah. But let me tell, it's hard. And I want you to know that going in that you might regret it. I don't know. But I think their stories do need to be told. Of course. Of course.

I don't think enough is really put into the fact that these people didn't really, they got away with it. Yeah, like they, they got away with being actual child torturers for years and years. That's so sad. Yeah. So again, I don't know, if that doesn't create a serial killer, I don't know what's going to.

It sounds like that's like the 101. It's taking an orphan, stripping them naked, throwing them in front of a bunch of kids and beating the shit out of them on the regular basis. I feel like if something's brewing inside, that's definitely going to bring it to the surface. Now, he was returned to his mother at around nine years old. Oh, wow. So he was in the orphanage for four years. Yeah. That's your entire high school experience. Yeah. That's crazy. I know and that's in during a very very time

mental exactly a formative time She got a job with the state actually and she was finally financially stable enough to get custody of them again unfortunately That time away and that hellhole was not something that could really be remedied when it came to Albert I don't know if the other kids really experienced what he did. If they did, they were able to move past it somehow. He clearly, I think, already had, as we know, he is an actual monster, so there was definitely something in there, and I think this just brought it out for sure. Now, he came home with a habit of wetting the bed

and didn't stop this until 11 years old, which we know can, you know, it's part of that whole like McDonald's triad, which is shaky at this point. You know what I mean? I think we've come to the conclusion and psychology that it's like, I'm running. A lot of kids let the bed.

It's like I don't know how to do that. I know how to do it. I know how to do it. Like so many other factors But you know accompanied to me this speaks more to the trauma that he experience. This is a trauma response for sure He also had developed an interest in eating feces and drinking urine Okay, so that's different that's that's different

He had also clearly He came home with an enjoyment for inflicting pain onto himself You have to wonder if that whole like eating feces and drinking urine came from some kind of punishment Because oh it definitely did if you read the article. Oh great. That definitely came from that. Okay Moving on now. Yeah, in fact like these kids would vomit out of like being sick or scared and the nuns would force them to eat their own vomit. What? Yeah.

And nun, telling you to force, you know, a six-year-old to eat their own vomit. Oh my God. Who, where did these women come from? The fiery pits of whatever hell exists. Like you think of these people, like I've been came from, and men, these fucking priests and nuns that ran these places. Oh my god

They it's woof. You think of like people like actually like I've met like women before that have wanted to be nuns Or like more nuns and you think of them as the sweetest Usually that's the thing. It's like any none. I've met or any person who wanted to go into that. Yeah line of service They are always like the sweetest, just most caring people. And that's, I'm like, so what was going on back then? Like what made, but I guess we're more people forced into it by then. I was gonna say to be honest, and that's why I don't want to speak too much to it. I don't know a lot about that.

I don't know about that time period of what would make someone want to join. Right. I believe it's probably different what would make someone want to join. Right. I believe it's probably different than what makes someone want to join now. Definitely. And that's why we see a totally different pathology there, but I just don't understand how and how is there that many monsters all together? Right. Look, we're talking about one orphanage, obviously, but we've heard stories before they're terrible, terrible things that have happened in orphanages.

Oh yeah, that time period. And they were all terrible. I don't know what, I don't know what was going on with nuns and priests back then. And they were always going on in these orphanages in particular. It's very sad. I didn't do any research into what would make them join or like, right? Of that kind of thing thing because I feel like there has to be some kind of how would make an interesting episode common or if I could sit through that yeah that would be a tough one I don't know if I could go into it I don't you pass like pass that one article yeah just doing this I had to stop several times I had to be like I got to stop here the cases that I do I

have to stop sometimes and like let's be honest or nowhere near the shit that you decide to cover. This one really took me on a ride. I could ride that. But yeah, he really enjoyed him flicking paint onto himself. He had actually constructed his own DIY catanine tails. And he would use also a board with nails in it

to hit himself with. Thank you for calling that a DIY. Ah, yeah, it was his DIY project. So he had also started to develop a taste for pickerism, which is basically deriving sexual pleasure from shoving sharp objects into someone else, or very rarely into your own body as is the case in Fischer's case. Yeah, he did that. Now, it can be part of bondage, I guess, pickerism, like light pickerism, if done consensually. Like, obviously, like, little pricks here and there. Like, if you are both consenting people.

But it's not common, and the lines can get a little blurry with it, and normally it is associated with, like, killers who will use the stabbing as a means of sexual, you of sexual pleasure. Uh-huh. Now, actually in 1886, a study found a series of lust murders where sexual pleasure was not from rape or what we see as molestation, but instead the murder got the sexual gratification out of the act of murder itself.

They get this from something like pickerism or from the screams of pain or fear they can elicit from their victims. These are the scariest and most dangerous types of killers because they enjoy the act of torture and fear. Murder is not a means to an end for them, which it can be for some murder. You can, because we've covered some murderers

who have said, I don't like actually killing someone. I just, like, I, you know, I did it for this, or I did it for that, but they don't actually enjoy the act of doing it, which does not make them better. It's just, this is just a, it's also a different and confusing. Exactly. But murder's the main event for these ones.

These are the cases that can be tricky when it appears a sexual motive was present, but there's no evidence of a physical sexual assault. You know how that can happen sometimes, right? Like, that looks like a sexual motivated crime, but like, they're not seeing rape, right? Like, what is that? What does that mean? It can be this kind of thing. It's always confusing when there's not that physical evidence, but they can kind of miss a paraphelic behavior like pickerism, actually, where they're not looking into that. A victim is stabbed to death, but not raped or molested.

It really doesn't count out that sexual motive because that's where they could have got the enjoyment of it, which is really, really horrible. It's wild. This is definitely Albert Fish, for sure. He was a rapist, but there were times when the act of torture and murder itself was what he was deriving the pleasure from, and that seemed mostly to be his thing. At some point, it's not known when, but at some point in his early childhood, he did take a hard fall onto his head. Okay, he fell out of a cherry tree onto his head. He suffered a concussion and had dizzy spells and headaches after that.

Okay, so we got a few things working about studying. We've got head trauma, we've got nuns. Yeah, we've got actual mental on this running in the family, like we, we really have like a perfect storm of like not great things here. A perfectly imperfect storm.

Exactly. Now, he ended up when he came home, like when he got into his teens, he started frequenting bath houses, like public bath houses, where he would just voyeuristically watch boys undress. That was like his thing. This is the natural beginning to a lot of serial killers,

his voyeurism, especially lust killers or sexual satis. It's an act of control. They're in a safe and concealed place, watching someone in their most vulnerable position. They feel like they're in control. They feel powerful, the risk of some thrill, and actually, Paul Holes, I don't know if you know him, are good old friend. You know our pal Paul Holes. Paul Holes described this kind of thing as a growing serial killer overcoming a series of increasing barriers to offend. He says to a normal person, this kind of behavior seems unbelievably inappropriate because it is.

And a societal barrier stops us from watching someone undress through their bedroom window. We just wouldn't do that. But a potential serial killer continuously will cross the societal and moral barriers and increase their danger level as they do. So this allows them to shed this moral compass we naturally have, and they can get more and more brazen.

So eventually they may actually enter a home or a public place and do this voyeuristic shit or like steel shit, like underwear from somebody's house. Get through. And then it leads to hurting someone because they keep getting away with it, keep getting away with it. Exactly. Exactly. Like a slow build.

Like he says when somebody enters a home and is stealing things like underwear or something like that is very dangerous and their next Escalation is definitely gonna be hurting someone sure now soon. That's just a little Paul holes for you guys It's just a little Paul holes, so he was graduating in his disgusting behavior at this point He started answering mail order ads where women were seeking romance and marriage He would answer them with horrifically obscene letters. Oh God. He then moved on to answering land ladies who would inquire in the class and the class of my class of freedom was at the classical ads. The classified ads about rooming spots in their boarding houses that they needed to fill. And he would pretend to be someone named Frank Howard, which is a name he used as an alias a lot. He said he would always say he had a developmentally

challenged brother or son. And he would tell the landlady in detail how this relative would need to be disciplined if we were to live there. And when he received word back, he would go further and ask if he could send someone for this woman to demonstrate whether she was able to take on the discipline or not. Oh my God. Then if they agreed, he would show up and try to get this lady to beat him. What? Usually that's when the scam ended and they were like, you're like, no.

Like, that's weird. You're looking for a dominatrix. Yeah, and it's like they, they're fine. That's fine. Go find that. That's the thing. I'm like, no, like, you're looking for a dominatrix. Yeah, and it's like they, they're fine. That's the thing. Go find that. That's the thing. I'm like, damn, but I don't, oh. So in 1890, he was 20 years old and he moved to New York City.

He started working as a painter. He was still writing vulgar letters to like unsuspecting classified ads. This is when he started escalating big time though. He started molesting and raping young boys. He would lure kids into the basements of these apartment buildings where he was working as a painter and that's where he would assault them. Now unfortunately he really made it a point to do this to disabled children or black children because he figured that they wouldn't be investigated by police.

Which is sad because that was true. Very often he was right. And that like cool world would be driven. Now, during this time, he frequented brothels as well and he would go there just to be beaten and whipped. Okay. Like Dominatrix style. Yeah.

And honestly, I'm like, why couldn't you just do that? Go to one daily. Right. Like get it. I'm sure people do that. That's the thing. Like get it done. And move.

Go that you're painting. Go get your coin for painting. Right. And that's it. And that's it. By 1898, when he was around 28 years old, a marriage occurred. So can you imagine like having been married to Albert Fish?

No, like I cannot. I do, I do. Like what? No, no, no. Thank you. Talk about regrets. Well in this woman, by a lot of sources I read, he met this woman through his mother.

His mother like set them up. Okey dokey, which I was like, woof. Hey there, fellow podcast listener! It's Elena. And Ash! And we're taking you back to the days before streaming services. Whoa! You know when you would come home from high school

and it was only a few hours until that TV show everyone was watching was about to come on? Well, in 1999, that show was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In our podcast with Wondery, the rewatcher Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we take it back to 1999. So get out your knee high boots and paste that poster of Angel on the wall. It's time to enter the Buffyverse. Some of you avid morbid listeners already know what we've gotten store. Hey, your nose.

Join us as we slay our way through Buffy's drama, action and romance. Episode by episode. Slacy, follow the rewatcher, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon music or Wonderyarn, darn, It's been a long time since I listened to anything about Albert Fish. I think when I first got into true crime, I probably listened to an episode. I forgot that he was a father.

Yep. A father to six children. Six children. What's weird? He never heard that. We'll see more about this in part two when we start talking about what his kids had to say. And everything, his children later said that he was a kind father to them. Wow. Never abuse them physically, kind father to them. Wow.

Never abuse them physically, never verbally abuse them. They literally said he was a decent father and he worked hard and supported us. Do you think that that happens as almost like, like these murderers see their kids as an extended form of themselves and they would never hurt themselves? But he liked hurting himself. Yeah, actually.

That was the same for him. That is interesting. I don't know what hurting himself. Yeah, actually. That's the same for him. That is interesting. I don't know what it is. Yeah. He... Sometimes I feel like there's just no rhyme or reason. There isn't. I feel like there's none. I don't think we'll ever be able to explain this kind of shit. Like who they will not hurt, but who they will. I just don't think we're ever going to be able to explain it. It just does it because it doesn't make sense. Because then there's killers that are so horrible to their own children. Exactly.

Who do we just cover? Fucking the cousins there. Oh, the Hellside Strangler? Exactly. Yeah. It's horrible to his children. Absolutely. It's horrible.

Probably would have killed them. Does it make any sense? No sense. So crazy. They even set it on the stand later. But they also said he was a weird guy. He was eccentric. We knew he was eccentric Mm-hmm, and they would say you know He would like he would like play weird games with us and like want us to like hit him with things like he would have his children

Like hit him. Oh see that's weird because then he's driving some kind of sexual pleasure Exactly, so he is abusing them and it's exactly like he's like yeah, it's like that's abusive because then he's driving some kind of sexual pleasure from that. Exactly. So he is abusing them and that's... Exactly. Like he's like, yeah, it's like abusive. Exactly. And it's like, so it's been them to find that out later. It's like, because it's a moment different layer of trauma for them because like in the moment they're kids, they don't understand. Yeah. That's why he's doing it. You jump on your dad and like, you know, like beat him with a, with a, but like a brush. That's what they would do. And like they don't, what the fuck would they take?

Then he's getting any kind of pleasure out of this besides you having fun. Yeah. And it's like, but he's actually getting some sick perverted pleasure out of this. Yeah. And then they find that out later as adults. And it's like, wow, that opens up a whole new wound

of like holy shit. Because now every memory is tainted with what that actually was. But like we'll get into it in part two that like he would write letters to them and like was genuinely concerned for their well-being. Interesting. And was like, you know, talked to his granddaughter. And was like very grandfatherly with his granddaughter.

What? It's a, and it's like very jarring to see. And it's like, that's Albert Fish. And it's like how do you kid? Yeah, how do you not look at these other children and think like this could be my grand kid? This could be my kid. This is somebody's kid.

He tortured kids. Yeah, like tortured them. Yes, like an oven comes into play at some point. And then he literally is like talking to these kids. I don't get it. I don't, I'm glad I don't get it. I never want to get it. No, thank you. But we'll talk about that more later for sure though.

So once the kids started coming, Albert continued his job as a painter and he tried to just quell these deranged thoughts that he was thinking and just kind of grind to support his family. But it didn't work. He still had fantasies of raping and other nightmares and he stopped just fantasizing and he went right back to molesting boys. Now he was incarcerated in 1903 for stint at Sing Sing prison. Oh wow. When he was arrested for larceny and petty theft and he would be in and out of prison for brief times like like only small little sedents, but always released and deemed sane during his medical.

That is. Yeah. Bananas. And that's somebody dropped the ball many times. B-A-N-A-N-A-S. Later, he would tell a story of this time when one of his young lovers, because while he was with Anna, obviously,

he was also taking on quote unquote lovers. Yeah. Some of them were like 19 and stuff like her age. And were they like, were they like willing to be? Some of them were. And a lot of them were not. And so they were women? No, these were boys.

OK. And he took, one of them took him to a wax work museum, short at the time. Apparently wax museums were different back then, because when I found out what he saw, I was like, that's not Madame Tussos. What is it? It was a wax representation of a bisection of a penis. Yeah, I'm not a Tussera and have one of those. Yeah, I don't have that. Not that I've seen. I was going to say at least I had never

saw that. But they also had like other body parts that were bisected. So to me, it sounds more like body, that body world's exhibit. Yeah. John has taken me to eight times, and I love it every time. But they have like five, but you have an option or something. I have that in common.

Yeah, that's something we have in common. But he saw this, see, I saw it and was like, wow. Fascinating. Medicine is really fascinating. And he saw it and was like, wow, I would love to do that to someone. And then he also became obsessed with castration at this point. Yep.

Now, it was in Wilmington, Delaware in 1910 that he committed his first mutilation. Oh. He entered into a relationship with a 19 year old guy named Thomas Kedin. Now, this was a Sadomastochistic relationship, but it was not consensual. Okay, Thomas was not consenting to this, but he was bullied and threatened into it by fish. Now, it culminated into fish essentially abducting this young man,

and bringing him to an old abandoned farmhouse, where he kept him bound there for two full weeks while he brutally tortured him daily. Oh man. After two weeks of pure hell, he was tied up again while fish manually bisected his penis while he was alive. No. No. What he said about it later was, quote, I shall never forget his scream or the look he gave

me. I bet. Now, he was planning to kill him after this and dismember him and then bring the meat back to his home to eat because he was also becoming interested in cannibalism. He just, yeah, just had all the boxes. But it was hot out. And it had been hot out for the two weeks. And he figured the meat would go rotten.

Okay. And he didn't want that. No. Like, you know, pain, slapping myself with, you know, like nails on a board. You know, bisecting someone's penis. Not worth meat though. Food poisoning, hard pass for Mr. Fish.

He does not want the tummy grumblies. He's not into that. I mean, yeah. I was like, are you kidding me? You're worried about food poisoning, hard pass for Mr. Fish. He does not want the tummy grumblies. He's not into that. I mean, yeah, are you kidding me? You're worried about food poisoning? You sick fuck. What's the truth? What? Do you think that he was going to share the meat?

And that's well, he did at one point. He started eating raw meat. Yeah. And he would sometimes like offer his children raw meat. Okay. So again, abusive without his children actually knowing that that's abusive. Like no physical punishments, just weird shit that is abusive to children. Now, honestly, I don't know if death would have been honestly merciful to this to Thomas.

At that point. Because fish just ended up dousing the gaping wound with peroxide. Oh my god. Slaathering Vaseline all over it, wrapping it in a dirty rag. He then kissed the boy goodbye, gave him ten bucks and sent him on his way never to be heard from again. What? Yep. I wonder if that man like lost his penis. Well, and there's also there's

certain sources that say that he may have been developmentally challenged. Oh my god. It's not confirmed, but that was his tip. It's that was his tip. He did. A profile on vulnerable people. Oh, that's horrific and so sad. That like ruins me. Yeah. Now in 1917, his wife Anna abandoned him in that like ruins me. Yeah. Now in 1917 his wife Anna abandoned him in her six. Why? Yeah, but she also abandoned her six children. So she's also an actual gaping piece of shit. Yeah, you don't leave your kids with a man like that. She had been having an affair with a man who rented a room in the fish home. So why? He was a handyman named John Strab. She left him while fish was she left with him while fish was at work.

And she just left all the kids alone. And when he returned home, that's what he found. So at one point, she actually came back. She came back with John and begged to stay there because they were not able to support themselves. Are you shitting me? And he said, you can stay, but John can't. Yeah, duh. She tried, and she tried for a while to actually keep John secretly in the attic.

But this found out and gave one more chance for her to stay and John to leave, but she refused and left again. Unreal. And then when him and the kids were not home, she and John came back and stole all their furniture, including the mattresses for the children. Why do you even need those? I have no idea. I was like, wow, what a work it. What a bitch. Like, and this was when it really dove, like, he dove really hard

into self-mutilation now. Like, this was his real big turn into self-mutilation and self-masochistic behavior. It also really sent, he had like massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had a massive, he had, no, that's a that's a mentally ill person. Yeah.

Um, was he making the kids do like weird religious? He wasn't. That's the other again, weird. He wasn't putting it on them. He was real, but he was doing in front of them, which is harmful abusive because he was not doing like regular like religious things. Right. He was like like a one point in deranged.

It said that he wrapped himself in a carpet and was just laying there. And when like one of his kids was like, what are you doing? He was like, John the Apostle told me I have to do this. And it's like that's damaging to a kid, man. Like that's also so sad. Because like obviously he was going through like, like a Satan person does not do that.

No. So that's that is sad to me. What's weird is he was placed in the, he was actually evaluated by psychiatric hospitals, numerous times during this period. And do you be sane? He was even placed in Bellevue a couple of times. And they released him saying he was sane. See, that's straight.

So this was not, but like, Ed Kember when he was held in like that, well, that's what I mean. They weren't doing their due diligence here. That's their thing. Like, he said he figured out how to pass the test. Yeah, it's like, I think they just weren't. I, at this time, I think it was maybe overrun.

They were overwhelmed and they didn't do their job. And I'm sure they just weren't as extensive as they are today. Oh, absolutely. Also, they didn't know as much as we know today about psychology. They didn't know about much as we know today about psychology. They didn't know about these things. Because remember, this is the early 1900s. Yeah, like, they don't know that people are sticking pins into their finishes and like getting off from that. They have no idea that that's a thing. Right. They don't know. Of course not. I barely know.

Well, I did not know. Yeah. So this is when he started pushing needles into his groin. Yeah. But he would mainly do it between, and this is like really graphic, but I'm sorry. It is what it is. You must play on Albert Fish. You're going to get a lot. Well, and so many people requested this. And you're getting it. I'm giving it to you.

There we are. He would mainly do this between the area of his anus and scrotum, because that's a very sensitive area. He also would put them directly into his testicles, but he said that what, even that was too much pain for him. That hurts to hear, and I don't even have testicles. I was just gonna say, I do not have testicles. Is one or two? No.

Remember when I asked? Yeah. One or two. Yeah. Like, no. That's a lot. Yeah. And we'll find out more about that like infamous x-ray.

Oh, yeah. Like, you find on there. I'll talk about like infamous x-ray. Oh, yeah. Like you find on there. I'll talk about that in part two, too. Me too, too. He still was enjoying to hit himself with that nail studded wooden paddle, which he would also have the kids hit him with sometimes. Okay, so like hi guys.

Exactly. He even went as far to encourage like, if his children's friends were around, he was like, do you all want to play a game and like hit me with this paddle? Like, what the fuck? What? And he's actually getting home from like spending time at the fish's house. Yeah, and you're like, you know, so beautiful. Yeah, so we had Albert's, or someone so his dad with like a paddle with his nil's on. I'd be like, oh, never going anywhere. I'm calling the authorities immediately, but holy shit And then he would insert

Don't look at it. I was just gonna say I said the word insert and already you're like He would insert a lighter fluid soaked wooden dowel into his anus and set it on fire What yeah soaked wooden dowel into his anus and set it on fire. What? Yeah. What? So he was burning his rectum? Yep. How did he not like go ablaze?

How did he not go ablaze? Like, you know what I mean? Just the way that said. How did he not go ablaze? I'm the little damage tier right now, so forgive the lack of the motion. From over here, I have no valid answer for that. I really don't.

You're, I mean, it says full of lighter fluid. I don't have a good answer for that. We know he did it though. Oki-doki. So it's really scary about this. Is everything? Yeah, it's like he's doing this to himself and it's like if he's doing this to himself, that's one thing. It's like I can't stop you. Like do it, that's you. I can't stop. But he's also doing things to other people. He's raping young men.

He's hurting people. So yeah. In 1919, he actually began a habit of just stabbing young men. He's hurting people. So, yeah. In 1919, he actually began to have it of just stabbing young men that he would like lure into different places. And he again chose like disabled boys or black homeless children. And he definitely murdered some people here, but was never tried. We just don't know who these victims are,

which is so sad. And such a testament to the times. But there's no way he didn't fatally harm someone during this time because he would literally just, because it was pickerism, right? So July 11th, 1924, this is pretty crazy. He came across eight-year-old Beatrice Keel at her Staten Island farm home.

She, this is like the crazy leading up to the really crazy. She was playing outside in a field and he walked up to, he walked right up to her in a field outside of her home. Yeah. And started striking up a conversation. Okay. He was horrifically good at engaging with children. Yeah. And with coming across as a trustworthy companion to them and like an old grandfather type.

Mm-hmm. And he would also be able to do it to parents sometimes as we see in the Bud case. So nuts. And he would also be able to do it to parents sometimes as we see in the bud case. So nuts. On this particular day, he offered Beatrice some money to help him find some rhubarb. It bushes in a field nearby. And she was like, cool, she happily agreed, took her by the hand and began to lead her away from her home. No.

Very luckily, her mother saw this happen and ran outside and literally chased his ass away with like a broom. It's like the fuck away from my kid. I will kill you. He probably loved that. Well brazen as fuck, as always, he came back to the kill farm that night and snuck into their barn

and was literally sleeping in their barn. Luckily, the kills were likely on high alert after what had happened with Beatrice early in the day. Absolutely. So her father Hans found Albert and like literally tried to like beat the shit out of him. Like got him out of there. He loves the hot, which is so weird. Exactly.

Now, next, he attempted another escalation. He came across a young boy and his friend and offered them some lunch at his home. Yeah. And again, this is a different time. Yeah. A different time, because all this right now sounds like, what the actual fuck? What are all these kids doing? Right.

And it's like, but it's still happening today sometimes. Well, and kids were walking around the street. Oh, kids could do whatever the fuck they wanted back then. Yeah, because this just was nothing else to do. There was nothing else to do. A widespread thing, but it was. Yeah. And again, even today, we find out that these kind

of manipulative monsters can engage with your child and do. That's why it's like, now that we know this, these parents didn't know this. Of course not. So it's like, now that we know this, we have to teach our kids that no adult should, no adult needs to have a secret with you. No adult needs or help. No adult needs help from you.

It's just scream as loud as you can when you see somebody that freaks you out. Like the no adult other than this one or two, these one or two people are gonna be picking you up from school. It's so many conversations that you have to have with your kids. It's so true. And it's so sad that parents have to do that with their kids.

Yeah, it sucks because you feel like you have to scare them to make them understand. Yeah. Yeah. But the older they get, they have more questions. But I think that you have to explain it. One of the things that really stuck with me, always and my mom always told me was no adult needs to help from a child. Nope.

So that's a red alert run away. And also, and now it's like no adult, you tell your kids no adult should ever have a secret with you. Yep. Because that's how child molesters will get your kid to trust them. It's like this is our little secret. Yep. No. No kid has a secret with an adult at the end. No. End of story. And it sucks. But back then, she was going down. It was so different.

Now these kids agreed, they followed them and they were playing around in his house like kids do. Oh my God. While waiting for him to make lunch, and while rough housing, the mattress and fish's bedroom flipped up, and they got a look at what was under it. No. Inside were what Albert fish would later self describe as his quote, implements of hell. That's what he described as tools as. Impliments of hell. Impliments of hell. And before anybody says cool band name, I call it,

that is an actual band. Oh, I just wanted to put that out there. What a choice. Now, they were a butcher knife, a handsaw, and a meat cleaver among other things. Whoa. These are what he used to literally torture young kids. Oh, my God.

The boy saw these things in his bedroom under his mattress and immediately ran the fuck out of that house. So glad they did. Oh. By this point, he was frustrated and angry because his intent was now to torture and kill a child and eat them. And if he was failing.

So this only increased his bizarre behavior and self-mutilation at this point. Uh-huh. Now, July 14th, 1924, only a few days later. Now, he found what he had been searching for, just right in his lap at this point. So at around 2 p.m. on this day, and this was in Staten Island, Anna McDonald watched her eight-year-old son, Francis McDonald, play outside. During this time, she spotted an older man with gray hair, a skeletal frame, and a gray mustache walking down the street. There's Albert. He was acting bizarrely and he was like ringing his hands and he seemed nervous and she was like, I've never seen that fucker before. Like who the hell is

that? She didn't recognize him, but he looked at her, tipped his hat to her and then was just gone. So she was like, I think that was weird, but whatever. Yeah. Now a couple of hours later, Francis and his little brother Albert, who was only five and a half. Yeah. I know weird. There's a lot of Albert's like floating around. Yeah. The times they went down to the street, down the street, to play with some other boys because that's what you do. Yeah. Francis had a favorite rubber ball with him. Oh. It had circus animals on it. Stop. And while they played, they were playing with that ball for a little while and just playing some other stuff. Sure. That same old man that his mother had seen suddenly appeared and was calling these kids over to him. Oh, no only Francis walked over to him

Oh, Francis turned when the other boys went back to playing their game It was only about a minute before they realized Francis had not come back and they looked and he was completely gone Oh my god. Now a neighbor Jacob Stern saw Francis at 430. He was the last person to see him He was entering the woods with an older man and he described this man as a frail man, older gray hair, gray mustache wearing a hat. Also, sir, you're seeing a little child enter the woods with a large skeletal man

with a mustache and a hat. Here's the thing. He was entering the woods which leads to a park that all the kids would play at. Okay. And he said he was nobody, he was like, and at this time, yes, we would all say, what the fuck is going to know?

Like I'm calling someone, then it just wasn't that weird. Well, I guess he was. And he wasn't struggling. They were walking like they knew each other. He said it didn't look like they didn't know each other. There was no sense of urgency in my mind about it. And he was like, and they were going towards the park.

So I figured like they weren't technically, I guess these woods like lead to a park, but there's a part where you can go deeper into the woods. Of course. But he assumed they were just walking the trail park. And he was like, honestly, it looked like his grandfather just walking him to a park. Oh, God. So he's like, I just didn't think anything of it, but I took note of it because I just,

it just happened in front of me. Sure. And he's like, and I knew, I think he knew Francis and his family, but he was like, I didn't know. It just like family members. It's like family members. So when he didn't come home that night,

an Albert did his parents' panic. And his father, who was also Albert, Albert McDonald's senior, he was actually a police officer and Manhattan. Crazy. He immediately knew that this, something is wrong here. Then little Albert told them about the Gray Man. The Gray Man.

And that's what he became known as. Oh, he became. He became, so he said there was a gray-haired older man the grey man. And that's what he became known as. Ooh, he became. The grey man. He became, so he said there was a grey-haired older man who talked with Francis and the alarm bells went bonkers to his parents. Because his mom had seen that man. His mom was like, I fucking saw that.

Like, I know who that is. So they searched on foot and then contacted the rest of the police force in a massive search one underway that had police volunteers and boy scouts. It was the next day when I think it was three boy scouts ended up finding Francis McDonald in the woods. Henry Lazarno, Thomas Pasone and Henry Wood were the three scouts. They literally tripped over the murdered body. Also think about like sending boy scouts in the woods to find children dead children in the Dorothy Eggers case.

Yeah, exactly. I was like who the fuck is sending but like that was part of the boy scouts back then go find this body Well, you learn how to make a fire and you also are our Make-shift cadaver dogs like what the fuck? It's like what is going on and this was still happening. Yeah, and they ended up finding him. Now, the way it is described in all of the things that I've found is that all the clothing below the waist had been violently torn from his body. An unspeakable assault had taken place.

Worse yet, he had been strangled by his own suspenders. It wasn't just a strangulation, though. The suspenders had been pulled so tightly around his throat, and so aggressively around his throat that they had actually cut through the skin and drawn blood. Wow. That's saying a lot. The rage that is involved in the...

Ooh. The hunt was on for this boys killer, and his own father actually moved from his Manhattan precinct. They transferred him into the statin police for this boys killer and his own father actually moved from his Manhattan precinct. They transferred him into the statin police for this case so that he could be on the case. Wow. According to Derejne, he said, quote, if I catch the killer, I'll turn him right over to Captain Van Wagner, who is the lead on the case. And he said, I'll not harm a hair on his head.

I want to see him punished as he deserves, but the law must take its course. Wow. So he was like, you can trust me. Like, I'm not gonna fuck this guy up right when I find him, which I'm like, whoa, you are a better person than I am. For real, but he also is like not right away. He's not right away. I'm not gonna pull it in. Yeah, he's like, he's leaving room.

He's like, immediately I will turn him over. I'm not saying that I'm not gonna go into a cell at night and rip him to shreds. No, definitely not. Like, I deserved him. Now, the news went wild. Even though this was at the same time as the Leopold and Loeb trial. Oh. No, definitely not. Like I deserved him. Now the news went wild. Even though this was at the same time as the Leopold and Loeb trial.

Oh wow, that's crazy. Yeah. The Redding Times had an article called, this is like so. It's funny what becomes like a common thread through these articles. So this article was entitled, also the grammar is terrible. What would solve mystery of child killing by gland clue?

What? Yeah, in the article they say that science says murder is caused by busted glands in our body Busted glands that'll always getcha. It's a real wild ride to read that their like science has figured it out everybody You got busted glands. You're probably gonna murder someone. You need to take care of these busted glands. And it's like, what? I don't think that's it. But man, they really hung on to it. I found several articles that were like,

breaking news, science has figured out what creates a murderer. It is glands. And it's like, what? I don't know about that. I was like, I had no ideaans. And it's like, what? I don't know. What about that? I was like, I had no idea this was such a fucking moment in time that they were like, Glans. It's all about Glans.

Glans be damned. Glans are doing it. But it's a wild ride. They said, and in this article was the beginning of them, really harping on the idea that this could not have been an older man. This was a young man who did this. Oh, okay. In fact, it's a strength that I think. really harping on the idea that this could not have been an older man. This was a young man who did this.

Oh, okay. In fact, it's the strength of that thing. But they had a lot of people who were like, no, I literally saw who it was. And they were like, no, it definitely was a young man. And they were fucking wrong. Of course. So it says, quote,

medical experts are agreed that the murderer was a strong, virile man and not a senile degenerate. Well, let me tell you. Let me tell you a senile degenerate. Well, let me tell you. Let me tell you. About senile degenerates. Now I went on like a bender into these old newspapers. I just could not stop. As soon as you can get the newspaper,

especially like 1920s newspapers, you're like, what a time. The way they described things, it's so blunt. Now the Knoxville News Sentinel also had the same gland thing going on. They had an article called Medical Science Seeks to Solve Murder by Glans. If only. Everyone was just sure that glands were the key to unlocking the centuries-old mystery of why humans murder each other.

What was wrong with the glands? You only know. You better get it fixed for you to murder someone. How are you supposed to know if your glands are busted? Not really. I guess when you murder someone, you know that your glands are busted. They're going to be quiet.

But I'm like, I don't know. We've been wondering this for centuries. I don't know if you've unlocked it with glands. I'm not quite sure. Also, glands is losing all the glands. In a gland. Unfortunately, the newspapers also decided now was the time to place a real indictment upon the

whole of Staten Island, which I was like rude. The New York Times actually said that, quote, the 60 square miles of territory in Staten Island include large areas of uncultivated land with woods and wild undergrowth, which are believed to be used as hiding places and meeting places by robbers, bootleggers, fugitives from justice, and criminals of various kinds. Yeah, they're all just having, like, little fucking relics. So they're like, statin island is just fucking... Bull of degenerates. People are like, oh, we've been...

All right, there's good people in there, too. People have always been horrible about statin island. I know! Like, to this day, people are terrible about statin island. It's not, like, thrust an indictment on everybody who lives there, like, jeez, if they're not all criminal. Exactly. No, an autopsy was conducted by the assistant medical

examiner of Richmond County. And that was Dr. George Mord, which is almost Morg, and I was like, pretty close. You did good there. How on the nose, bud? Mord. He found that Francis had died from strangulation and internal hemorrhage. Oh wow.

Which lends itself to a very grim conclusion. Yeah. He was severely beaten. He had bruises and scratches all over his body. This led Dr. Mord to be insistent that because of the brutality of the beating and the strength used in that strangulation, it had to be a very young, very strong man, possibly two men, he said, wow. He also was found to have undigested raisins in his stomach. This was notable because he was not given any at home, and the boys that he was playing with said they were not eating raisins.

So they think the man lured him into the woods with that day by giving him raisins. And then his younger brother Albert, who's the five and a half year old, said that he had also given him a silver coin. Stop. Now anyways, during this time, they began rounding up potential suspects. This is the time, so this murder in particular,

I feel like doesn't get enough like attention. Attention, yeah. This one and the next one, which I think I will end up covering in part two in particular, I feel like doesn't get enough attention. Attention. Yeah. This one in the next one, which I think I will end up covering in part two, because, woo, but they don't get enough attention. I know the grace bud one deserves attention, for sure. Of course. So do these.

Like, every child who is in there is a tension. These are children, they are a tension. And this is a very like winding case. It's like, I feel like when you go back into the newspapers, you really see everything that went into this. Well, this is a lot of stuff. It's dark. It covered a lot. Yeah.

And that's it. I wonder why. I know. It is. I think it's because everybody knows the grace bud one, and it's like the one that I think you can find the most stuff on. But if you really dig into those newspapers, you can find stuff on these other ones. Of course. There's not as much to try. Now, they're rounding up, you know, potential suspects now, because they want to. Not only

is this a brutal murder of a child, but it's the murder of a policeman's child. So now they're everybody's on this. Yeah. So a man named Clyde Patterson, who was a kitchen helper at a local hospital and an orderly named Jacob Gottlieb, or two men who got pulled in. They worked at the nearby Sea View Hospital in New Dorp. And this hospital is pretty close to the Port Richmond neighborhood and Charlton Woods area where Francis was last seen and found. The hospital was a sanitarium for tuberculosis patients. They were both described and it's also like not around anymore, like it's not a sanitarium anymore, obviously like a cacha. They were both described in various ways as degenerates and perverts by several

news outlets during the time. Okay. Clyde was 42, Jacob was 18. They were among some of the men in the area to tell police actually, and this is what kind of put a lot of suspicion on them, was they told police about a place in the Charlton Woods where Francis was found. They all referred to it as the rattlesnakes nest. This was where Francis' body was found, and like in this rattlesnakes nest, and these men said this is where perverts and criminals go to do their dirty deeds. And so it became clear to most authorities that they were looking for probably a known perv in the area. Okay, they were wrong. Yeah. Now this is what's worse. Authorities spoke to Jacob Stern, the neighbor that last software and says entering the woods with the suspects. With the suspect, excuse me, he described Albert Fish to a tea.

He's like an old man. Like, and obviously no one knew who Albert Fish was yet, and this whole thing. But he described an older man, frail-looking, and very grizzled with a gray mustache. The same way the neighborhood kids and Francis' own five-year-old brother Albert described him. In fact, they brought Jacob Stern in

and had him look at Clyde Patterson to see if this was the man he saw that day. And he said, absolutely not. He said, like before, this man was much older than that. And it's like, I've described you to him. You guys can definitely go off of what you've seen. Like, that's great. But if you have multiple people in a case

telling you what this aspect looks like, do you think you could even just give that an ounce of attention? Just something. And no, they, in fact, we're gonna get into this. He kept saying he was like, no, this was an older guy, but police said to the newspapers that they were completely discounting Jacob's description, because there was simply no way it was an older gentleman

who did this. But it was. It had to be a young man. According to the Brooklyn Daily Eagle at the time, it said, quote, the police have virtually eliminated the man seen by Stern. The autopsy on the dead boy showed that his assailant was a man in the prime of his life.

But it's also like, have you never met like a strong older man before? That's the thing. People, when they're really into something, will go ham. Yeah, like there's seven-year-old people that run marathon. Of course. And it's like, how are you just discounting

the last stranger that this kid was seen with? And it's like not just like a little kid saying this. It's like a grown adult as well. And his own mother. And remember, Anna McDonald saw Albert Fish that day. Right, his own mother. He picked his hat to her before brutalizing her child hours later.

Which is so fucked. And she said, quote, he came shuffling down the street, mumbling to himself, making queer motions with his hands. I'll never forget those hands. I shuddered when I looked at them. I shudder every time I think of them. How they opened and shut, opened and shut, opened and shut. I saw him look towards Francis and the others.

I saw his thick gray hair, his drooping gray mustache, everything about him seemed faded and gray. I saw my neighbor's two police dogs spring at him, and I saw Philip, the hired man, called him off. The gray man turned to me and tipped his cap, and then he went away. She knew this was her son's killer. It's so crazy to how animals just they know. And she said it every time she said it,

she said those two dogs leapt at him. It's so nuts to me. They knew. And they brought in a ton of dudes around the area and one of them was an escaped inmate from a mental health facility in the area. He was Jacob Herman and he had been brought in because he claimed to have seen

and touched Francis' body. Oh. He had escaped either the day Francis was murdered or the day before. And while running through the woods on his journey, he came across his dead body. Oh man. He said, quote, Tuesday, I was going through the woods. I stumbled upon the body. I touched it.

It felt like putty. I was afraid. I ran. Why did you touch it? It was later determined that he had not been at the scene when the murder occurred and they were able to verify this. He was just kind of talking off of what he had seen in the papers.

That's really annoying. Oh, it gets even more annoying. Within the same week, police brought in a man named Melvin Ware, who was a 33-year-old dishwasher at a restaurant in Manhattan. He was brought in not initially for this case, but because he was caught assaulting a 14-year-old boy. So this piece of shit was brought in, and within this case, but because he was caught assaulting a 14 year old boy. So this piece of shit was brought in

and within a month, within a month, within a few hours of being arrested, he admitted to strangling Francis McDonald. What? But he wouldn't give any other details. Because he didn't have any. That was one that was in the paper, like he strangled him.

Right, it's not very compelling. No, interestingly enough, he had a rubber ball in his pocket. No. This ball was incredibly similar if not the same as Francis' favorite ball with the head circus animals on it. How strange.

The one he had with him that day and the one that they had not been able to find since he was gone. He also appeared at the police station with scratches all over his face. Then as soon as he made it, like the confession, he recanted that confession the next day. Okay.

He claimed he had been drinking before he made it, and he thought he wouldn't have to face the charges about assaulting the 14 year old boy because he would have been taken to Staten Island for this murder charge. They would find out he didn't do it, and then they would just forget about the assault manhand. That's usually how that works.

This guy's mind is really like a treasure here, maybe. And they also brought in Jacob Stern to look at him and he was like, no guys, I said, he was old, this guy is 33. Like, are you wasting my time? And Anna came in and was like, nope, that's not him either. Like, show me some old men. He was kind of a dud, they had no actual evidence on him

in that ball. Anna initially said that's Francis's ball, but she some old men. He was kind of a dud. They had no actual evidence on him in that ball. Anna initially said that's Francis's ball, but she was hysterical. And then she came back in and she was like, I don't know if that's his ball. I think I just freaked me out when I saw a ball. Of course. And so one to be so similar.

Of course. And so he was released with no real evidence against him. God. Now, meanwhile, they also were holding a man whose name is different in every single source I found, but his last name is Esposito, so I'm just going to call him Mr. Esposito. Okay. He was 55. He had been working as a laborer in the area right near the McDonald's home.

He had been arrested on suspicion of a connection to this case because of his location at the time, and the fact that he had been released from Singsing Prison only three months prior, and he had been working on a road gang right near the McDonald's home, the day of the murder, and he had been released from his shift that day at 4pm. Oh, so that's pretty compelling. If we remember, Francis was lured away in last scene entering the woods with the suspect at around 4.30pm by Jacob Stern. Yes. Who were now ignoring, even though he had a perfect description of the real killer. So like, okay, cool, cool, cool. Interestingly, a woman and her daughter who lived at the same boarding home that this guy did, Mr. Espicito, said the day of the murder, he had arrived home

around 6pm and had spoken about a missing boy. And the news of the disappearance was not actually known at the time. That's weird. So they were like, what do you mean, like, how do you know there's a boy missing? And he said, I know this because I saw his mother crying and saying how worried she was about him. And so that was how he said he knew. And they were like, I guess that could have been it. And then they also said they couldn't find the overalls.

He wore to work that day. They were nowhere in his home. So that's a weird thing. Do we think that he may have helped? I don't think so. I think this just happens to be a situation where like, look how many of these guys look like they could be the guy. Yeah, that's scary.

I'd move. Yeah, it's a little scary. No, the issue here, like I'm saying, these all look like great suspects, but they're not people who did it. Everyone else thought these looked like great suspects too, and the newspapers were very sensational about how they released information. They had, and they would release information without actually verifying the information first. So a lot of it was like mistaken information. That would come out and be retracted. That's the hard thing about the newspapers too from that time. Exactly. Some of them are so completely wrong.

But you're like, wait, what? You're like, wait, and then you have to like double check it with another source. Now they had a vigilante mob awaiting justice in that neighborhood. And who can really blame people? No. This was the rape beating in murder of a child and a policeman's child. Yeah. They all liked, you know, they all liked Albert, but don't know. Of course. I can definitely get the hostility, but it can get really ugly, really fast. And it did.

So the newspapers I found were all really focused on drifters and homeless people. I know. Like the poor community. The people that love, they love to target. Yeah. And they were basically saying it had to be from those communities that this person came from.

They were clearly wrong in hindsight. Yup. Well, because of this, the people in the area were really side-ying like every single person in these communities. And a man named John Eskowski was living briefly and temporarily in an abandoned shack about 10 miles away from the crime scene.

And it was a temporary situation for him at the time, which we'll get into after. And a teenager came across him, just like squatting in the shack. And he, in all this madness, this teenager saw him and was like, that's him. That's the killer. Just a side of.

He is homeless and dirty. That must be why. So he ran into the gas station nearby and got the owner of it, a guy named Salvatore Pace. Salvatore followed him back to the area where John was staying in the shack in the woods and he actually brought a gun with him obviously because he didn't know what he was going to come across. And made John get up and led him out of the woods, like with leading him out of the woods with the gun to his back. And they thought they had him.

They were like, this is the guy. He was staying in the shack. He's in a shack. He's in a shack. So John thought he was being robbed because he was like, I didn't do any. Like he's not thinking he's doing like, he's like, what?

So he thinks he's being robbed. So he pulled his gun and then ran to hide behind like a tree or something. They ended up shooting at each other. No one got hurt in that, but police were called, and immediately police on horseback show up, followed by literally hundreds of towns people who are essentially armed with pitchforks

in the forest here. And because we're, because we're to gone around that the murder of Francis McDonald might have been apprehended in these woods. So a firefight began in the woods, they were shooting at each other. John was actually, John Askowski was hitting the side. And he stumbled out into the middle of the crowd, it fell to his knees, declared that he was just a farmer who had left his home after a bad argument with his wife, and then he put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger. Oh, it was later confirmed that he was just a farmer from Pennsylvania. He was living on that farm in Pennsylvania when Francis was murdered.

He had absolutely nothing to do with it. That's so sad, but he was like obviously like so scared. But this is her. Not so good. And no one talks about this part. I'm like, this is madness. Why are we not talking about how wild this was? Because I've never heard that.

I've never heard that story. I found it in a newspaper. That's so sad. And then they talk about it in Drainst. By the Harold Shekner book. It's like crazy. Yeah. So with this, the Gray Man got away for years. Wow. That's like crazy. Yeah. So with this, the Gray Man got away for years.

Wow. That's so crazy. Until you struck again in 1927 in Brooklyn. Mm-hmm. And that's where we're going to leave you today. All right. Because that second one is, it's only going to get worse from here on out.

Yeah. I think we've done enough. I think so. One way to say. To say, um, but we're going to get into the second murder, Billy Gaffney, who is a toddler, essentially. Oh, god. It's a really bad one.

I just want to let you guys know I had a time. I'm going to be as gracious and respectful telling it as I possibly can, because trust me, it's going to be hard for me to get out of my mouth. But we've got to tell the story So and we're also obviously gonna get into the murder of Grace Bud Which is another one that will just destroy your life Yeah, and then we'll get into the trial which is whole other experience

Absolutely bananas, but I feel like this is gonna be three parts It might be three parts because I feel like when we get through the murders of Billy Gaffney and Grace Bud I think we're gonna have to break at that point and need a break. We're hoping to need a break and we'll pull back a trial. Okay, guys, the next month of your life almost is going to be something if you're a morbid listener. Yeah, so everybody's traveling if you're listening to this. If you're a morbid listener, I hope you are, of course.

Because I'm sorry, if you just joined now, I'm terribly sorry. Yeah, hello, welcome. Well, sometimes it's lighter. It is, sometimes it can be lighter. Sometimes they do Hollywood cases. Sometimes we talk about lighthouses. Yeah. Yeah, this is part one of Albert Fish.

And we're all in this together as they said in high school musical. And as we will be. All right. Well, with that being said, we hope that you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. And I don't feel like I have to tell you not to keep it this weird because if you don't know at this point not to keep it that weird, then you should really just like not be here.

Yeah. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wundery.com slash survey.