Morbid - Episode 311: Matthew Hoffman AKA The Leaf Killer

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

Matthew John Hoffman was a strange guy. He was in a constant flux of being a quiet, yet unassuming guy to then having bouts of strange and off-putting behavior. It was his love of trees that gave him comfort and seemed to keep him settled at times, but on November 9, 2010 he broke into a quiet home in Apple Valley, Ohio, brutally taking the lives of Tina Hermann, her 11 year old son Kody and her best friend Stephanie Sprang, before leaving with 13 year old Sarah Maynard in his clutches.  Soon, Hoffman's obsession with trees would become the defining piece of this killer's pathology. In Part 1, we discuss his puzzling history, the lives of Tina, Kody and Stephanie, and the house of horrors he brought Sarah back to.  Check out this amazing book about the case! The Girl in the Leaves by Robert Scott ***US WEIRDOS Pre-Order The Butcher and the Wren: Here ***** ***UK WEIRDOS Pre-Order a SIGNED copy of The Butcher and the Wren from Waterstones!!*** HelloFresh: Get sixteen free meals, plus three gifts, with code morbid16 at HELLOFRESH.com/morbid16 Warby Parker: Try 5 pairs of glasses at home for free at warbyparker.com/morbid Prose: Take your FREE in-depth hair consultation and get 15% off your first order today by going to Prose.com/morbid Solo Stove: Just go to solostove.com and remember, you get $20 off when you use promo code MORBID! CareOf: For 50% off your first Care/of order of $40 or more, go to TakeCareOf .comand enter code morbid50 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's ANGI, or download the app today. Hey, Weirdo's, I'm Ash. And I'm Alena. And this is morbid. It's morbid! And we still sound a little bit like I've got like a Lindsay Lohan voice. Yeah, I think going on. I'm just a little dry. I don't sound too bad.

No, you don't. You really don't. And I probably don't sound as bad as I feel like I sound, but we're getting there. We're getting healthy, guys. So here we are. I just can't laugh too hard or I'll laugh myself into a coughing fit. That's the problem with this. I don't know if any of you guys,

I feel like everybody has a cold right now. Thank you. We're just all our immune systems are shit, apparently at this point. But everyone I know has this cold. Everyone I know. And everyone I know has had this cold because like, hi. Yes.

Hello, I've had this cold for a month. Yeah, you need to see a doctor. Yeah, like probably. But I don't have time for that. I can't do that. There's a like, where am I going to fit that into my desk? That's true. But it's important.

Health is important. It is. Health and months. But I feel like it's this cough that like, it's a tickle that keeps happening. Like, even right now, I can feel like creeping up and I'm like, no, no, no. It's a pause button.

It's a pause button. Because I keep having to pause any like Zoom meeting we're doing or anything. I keep muting myself to just hack up along really. She just like eats to the corner. Yeah, just to cough. Because I'm like, I'm sorry, everybody. But hopefully everybody's feeling good out there.

I know so many. You probably have this cold too, because I know people are like me too. Solidarity, brother. Feel better, man. We feel for you. But before we get into our case, which is going to be a two-pada.

Oh, because I don't know how to be brief. A two-pada after a two-pada. This case is just wild, so before we get into that, I just want to quickly mention again, our UK lovelies. You can get my book, The Butcher and the Ren. It's a fiction tale of a serial killer in New Orleans. It's crazy. The female medical examiner in it.

You can get my book. you can pre-order it, signed at Waterstones. So just go to the Waterstones book website, Waterstones.com, and you can type in Butcher in the Rand. It'll come up, you can get it signed on pre-order. It's gonna be out September 13th of this year. And if you are over here in States, you can get, I always go Southern

when I get back to the States. I don't know why. I don't know why. You can get the book on Priyader as well. You can get it at tinyurl.com slash the butcher and the rent, that way you can get it from wherever you want to, Amazon, Target, you know, Indy Bookstores, wherever you would like to do.

It barns a noble. Question. Answer. If I wanted a signed copy and I didn't know you know, indie book stores, wherever you would like to do it. Barnes and Noble. Question. Answer. If I wanted a signed copy and I didn't know you personally, could I order from Waterstones here as an Americana? You sure can. Cool. And there will be more. I'll, as we go, there's, because I mean the release of the book isn't actually being like published to hold in your hands

until September 13th. So before then, there's going to be a lot more fun stuff happening. There's going to be opportunities to get books signed, but right now we don't have anything like set in stone. So there are signed copies at Waterstones right now, a bunch of them, and get your hands on them guys hell. Yeah We also as we're just like plug a plug Today is pretty much the last day where you can grab tickets if you want to see our Show that we did while we were in Salem at the Daniels house, which was such a fun time so fun such a cool show

You guys really seem to be enjoying it, the ones who have watched. So, step in the flap. Step in the flap. If you want to grab tickets to that, I think you can watch until tomorrow Thursday. So you can get tickets at momenthouse.com slash morbid and FYI, those of you who love to hang out at our virtual shows. We are doing another one in May. So keep your eye out for that.

That's gonna be fun. Yes, already planning that, very excited for that. Yes. Maybe already have a venue that maybe is in Salem. Hoping, hoping. It fingers crossed my dollars. Yes. But that's all we have to show at you today.

And we're not gonna go into anything else because this is gonna be kind of a long one. And it's a doozy. And I need to start talking about it. So today we are going to start talking about part one of Matthew John Hoffman. Otherwise known as the leaf killer. And his crimes are known as the hollow tree murders.

Okay. This is a wild case. I know like the tip of the iceberg of this case. Yeah. Like I've definitely heard it covered before, but I don't know that I've heard it covered to the lengths that you went to. It's it's very intricate. It's very, very intricate. There's a lot of people involved. It's brutal. And so in this first one, we're gonna be talking about the people involved, the victims, we're gonna talk about Matthew John Hoffman, we're gonna talk about the initial crime,

and then we're gonna save the rest of it for part two, because there's more after that initial brutal crime that he commits. So we're gonna get right up to that, and then we're gonna take a pause for part two, and then part two we're really gonna go ham on the crazy stuff that happened after that. So we'll start November 10th, 2010.

Okay, that's when Valerie Haythorn was managing the dairy queen in Mount Vernon, Ohio. Her employee and friend 32-year-old Tina Herman, didn't show up for her shift. Immediately know. A tale is oldest time unfortunately and she was extremely reliable. Tina never missed a day of work. She would never do a no-call-no show. She would have at the very least shot Valerie, her friend, a text. So this was weird already Valerie is like, I don't like this.

So at the time apparently also, she had a boyfriend Tina did named Gregory Borders. They had a good relationship, but at this time they were a little rocky and they were in the process of breaking up, which is always like super scary and a heightened time of exactly. So I think Valerie had her red flags going up. She was like, I don't

know, I just, I want to be safe. So she called the Knox County Sheriff's Office and asked if they would do a welfare check. Great. She couldn't get a hold of her. So she was like, something's wrong here. Now, deputy Charles statlet was sent to perform a welfare check on Tina's home in Apple Valley. His report said, quote, Valerie advised that Tina did not show up for work today, and she is concerned that something may have happened to her because Tina was going to break up with her boyfriend, Gregory Borders. That's what the report says.

He ran around 8 p.m. He was on his shift, so he just stopped by. He said nothing seemed to miss at the house. There were no cars in the driveway, and the lights were off. It kind of seemed like no one was home. Okay. So he knocked.

No one answered. He couldn't really do anything else. That's what a welfare check is. I was gonna say that's the thing about a welfare check is it's kind of hard because... Yeah. A lot of times I feel like you just don't end up making contact with the person.

Yeah, and you can't really do anything about it. Yeah, it's just like... You don't have any reason to with the person. Yeah, and you can't really do anything about it. Yeah, it's just like, you don't have any reason to enter the house. And if can't, if nothing, the only way you can really enter that house is if something looks like something is going on and there or something did happen, and you can't, if the shades are drawn and the curtains are drawn, what are you gonna do, you know?

And it's like, even if you find something that makes you think you should enter, it's like such a fine line, I feel like. It like it is that's the thing they have to be careful about it They can't just barge into a house right even though that does up and all the time when they're not supposed to but in this Situation he was doing his job. You can't go further with a wheelchair welfare check So he said nothing looked weird. So he went back onto a shift But he said later at around 11 p 11 30 p.m. So a few hours later He was still on shift. He was going by that area. So he said later, at around 11, 11 30 pm, so a few hours later, he was still on shift, he was going by that area,

so he was like, you know what, I'm gonna be a nice guy and I'm gonna stop by and do another welfare check. Yeah, let's just see what's going on. He's going by, we mine as well. And I'm doing my due diligence. Yeah, and he was like, you know what, her friend apparently seemed very concerned, so he was just trying to be like a good cop, I guess.

And so he went by, he said, the lights were on this time in the house, and that a pickup truck was in the driveway. He knocked on the door. Nobody answered. Again, he had to leave. He can't do anything. And he had to report that nothing seemed to miss. Lights were on. Car was now in the driveway. Didn't see anything weird. So he left. Now the next day, November 11th, Tina didn't show up again for work. And at this point, Valerie has not been able to get in touch with her still. Right.

Those welfare checks are really not doing a whole lot. They're making things weirder, in fact. And so Valerie again called the sheriff's deputies and said, we need to check on her again. Something's wrong. What are we doing here? We can't just wait until weeks go by, and then like, what are we supposed to do? Right.

So this is when things got a little heightened, because it was also determined that Tina's kids, 13 year old Sarah, and 11 year old Cody, had not shown up for school either. Oh, so this is getting scarier. So now it's getting weird. And while Shariff'sd is tried to contact Tina, Valerie was searching for anybody that could be, have had contact with Tina, anybody who could know where she is. Yeah. So she called Tina's

best friend, somebody shoes with all the time, and somebody who lived right down the street from her, her name was Stephanie Spring. She got no answer from Stephanie. Okay, that's so now she's even weirder. No one's answering the freaking phone. She's freak, she's like, why can't I get anybody? Right. Stephanie's boyfriend, Ron Metcalf, actually connected back with Valerie at this time and was like, I can't get a hold of Stephanie. Like what is going on right now? So together, Ron and Valerie were like, all right, we gotta do something here because the police are only able to do so much. Right.

They are doing what they can, but like, what's happening here? What's happening here? So they agreed to just meet a teenist house and they were like, let's just check ourselves. We're friends, like we can do that. So Valerie, they met at the house, they decided they were just going to get in there.

They were like, we're just going to bust in there because something's wrong and I need to know it's wrong. And they're like, we kind of came in a little bit. Yeah, exactly. I think they were literally like, you know, they'll forgive us for barging in. Like, we won't catch a case. Exactly. I think we'll be okay here. So Valerie went in through a back window and she just popped in and it was dark in there and she said just silent. Oh, and that's so What if you were trafficked into a cult over shot nine times or fell in love with a vampire or went into a minor Surgery and woke up one week later Paralyzed what would you do?

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In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers and often for committing only minor offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines. The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme,

one that would shatter the lives of countless children and force a heated debate about punishment and America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder App. She said she walked a little further into the house and that's when she came upon a horrifying scene. There was nobody in that house but there was blood everywhere. Oh my God. It was on the walls, on the carpet, on the furniture. There was massive drag marks of blood

going through the house. Oh. It looked like someone had just been torn apart. Oh my God. Again, no bodies, just blood. And she said tissue. She could see tissue. It just, and she just was like, I'm out of here. Like human tissue. Yeah, like not like clenax. Yeah, just like said tissue. She could see tissue. It just, and she just was like, I'm out of here, like human tissue.

Yeah, like not like climax. Yeah, just like just clarifying. This is a weird case. That was good to say. Human tissue was on the floor. Now she ran out of there immediately, they called 911 and all she could say over and over again to the Nimonon operator was, there's just blood everywhere. Oh God.

And this is like her friend. Yeah. So let's go to who these people are. Tina Herman was 32 years old. She was a divorced mother of two children. Her mother, Barbara, called her, quote, a fun loving hard worker in a very caring mother. Oh. Everyone who knew Tina said she was the kind of mother who would do absolutely anything for her kids. She would move heaven in her. Everyone who knew Tina said she was the kind of mother who would do absolutely Anything for her kids. She would move heaven in her. I love it But and she was a happy person. Right. Like she was a very happy person very kind her mother said quote She loved dolphins and sunflowers

But most of all she enjoyed watching and cheering on her children as they participated in sports This is so wholesome and I hate knowing that it doesn't remain that way. It's really sad. Now she had Tina had met her ex-husband at the time, Larry Maynard, who did not live in the home, by the way, during this time, when they were 15 years old, that's what I met. And they immediately had fallen for each other.

Now, before we begin with more into this, there is stuff that happened after this whole case with Larry and his new wife. Oh. I will talk about it in part two. I just want to be clear about that. I'm not going to pretend that it didn't happen. Okay.

But I want to keep it for them because it's after this whole case wraps up and it's wild and he and his wife have a lot to feel shame for. Oh. And we will get into it. But for now, I will at least tell you the kind things he had to say for his family. Literally, only you would set up a cliffhanger within minutes of starting a fucking story.

Like only you. It's, they're not great. So, but you know what? I'm gonna start with the lovely things he had to say about his ex-wife and his children because they deserve to be praised during this. And we'll just kind of talk about what a shit went down later.

But at the time, they had a very good relationship for a long time, Tina and Larry. Larry later said she was so sweet, she was so kind and so beautiful. And she said, he said, when he saw her at 15 years old, he was just smitten. And he said she was beloved by everyone. She was super popular. Everyone thought she was great, even back then.

And he said she was truly one of those lit up the room when she walked into it, kind of people. I love it. They had their first child, Sarah, when they were both 19 years old. And she was actually born very premature. Oh, wow. It was tough, but they worked together to get her healthy, and they were able to very quickly.

And he said it actually just bonded them closer together, which it will do. If you have a good relationship, that shit will bond you together, or it will tear you apart very much so. Now, everyone said Sarah was a true fighter from the Gecko and she was really happy baby. She was very energetic, super curious and sweet. And two months after, or excuse me, two months, two years after she was born, her brother Cody came into the world and they bonded immediately. Oh, I was just looking at pictures of them. They are the cutest family. They are so sweet, so adorable. And they all have the happiest faces.

You were just saying they were so happy, you can see it on the faces. Yeah, they were just like, it seemed like it was a happy family. They definitely went through some stuff financially and just struggled that way. There was a divorce, things were not always the happiest. Yeah. But it seems like there was no record, no recorded abuse in this household.

Seems like they all kind of got through it together. Exactly. And Tina, especially it seemed was just a great mom. She's just like a great mom. She looks like a great mom. She has like that, like she would give you a good hug. Like she would be like in my case, I feel like she'd be like my friend's mom that I'm like, oh, you're the best.

Like you're the coolest mom. That's my, I like I wish you were my mom. Yeah, that's the thing. And Cody and Sarah, like we're really sweet with each other. They fought like normal brother and sister did. Anybody who says they didn't like ever argue with their brother and sister is pretty. They're like preteens.

That's like the height of the arguing. But they loved each other. They supported each other. And they were like goofy with each other. And both of them, apparently, according to everyone who knew them, both of them say, or both of them were apparently just like super kind. Like, that's the one thing that is described, like describes Tina, but also describes Cody, especially Ann Sarah, that they were just like kind kids. Well, they were raised right clearly. Yeah, and they were always sticking up for other kids

and helping people. In fact, Larry, their father said he didn't even know if he could take credit for teaching them that kind of kindness. They just, he said it just seemed like who they were from the jump. I think that's just how some people are. It's just in you or sometimes it's not. Now, when they were struggling as a family just financially a little bit, Larry had gotten a job as a long haul trucker and that's tough. That can be tough, especially on a marriage.

It can be tough if you're not super strong to begin with because long haul truckers work their asses off. They work all the time. They work for long periods of time and they're going across the country. Right. And so he's gone from the kids, he's gone from her. He said it was just like really straining on their marriage and it just, it didn't work out.

So unfortunately, they did end in divorce. But he said it wasn't a volatile anger-filled divorce. It was like they just grew apart. It's like sometimes, and it's like so scary, but sometimes people will say, you just fell out of love. That always breaks my heart. I know.

That is just, because I'm like, you, what? It's never gonna happen, okay? No, never. I can't, like that breaks my heart when people say that. Even saying that I got that feeling like I was gonna cry. That little choked out feeling. I know I can't like that. That breaks my heart when people say that. Even saying that I got that feeling like I was gonna cry. That little choked out. Yeah, I know I'm like, no.

But it does happen to some people. And you know, it's usually it's for the best when it happens. And I think it's a slow process. Like I think you know what's happened. There's signs in there somewhere. You can usually only see them in hindsight. Right.

Now Larry Antina put both the kids first. And they didn't hold kids against each other. They didn't use them in hindsight. Now Larry Antina put both the kids first, and they didn't hold kids against each other. They didn't use them in any way. They were like, we were very serious about not doing that, not fighting in front of them, not doing anything that could make them feel like they were a part of the divorce. Not making them pick sides.

Yeah, they were like, all we wanted was for both of us to have enough time with those kids. Yeah, that's the way you do it Kids don't need to be an active part of divorce. Yeah, just because your relationship doesn't work out Doesn't mean that their relationship can't work out So it's like it obviously there's mitigating factors to every different divorce But like in a normal divorce that's just like everyone's chill. There was no abuse. There was nothing like that Right, just you know make sure the kids are always first. Now, eventually, Tina met a man named Greg Borders,

and they worked together at the Target Distribution Center. They liked each other right away. He was a good guy. They ended up dating and moving into an apartment together with Cody and Sarah. Everything seemed to be going well. Larry said that at this point, everything was great between the two X's. to an apartment together with Cody and Sarah. Everything seemed to be going well. Larry said that at this point, everything was great between the two X's.

They were communicating, co-parenting. Everything was good." And he said, quote, we had both matured by then and we both loved our kids. We didn't want to argue in front of them or about them. Both Tina and I wanted just what's best for them. All right. Now, after Tina got laid off from her job at the Target Distribution Center,

she got a new position at a dairy queen. And she and Greg moved the kids to Apple Valley to actually a small home on King's Beach Drive. It was pretty idealic in a very safe area, but that makes my stomach hurt. No, I'm going to go to the next. It was a very safe area. The house was kind of away from other neighbors, which can be like, ah, or it can be like,

it can be like, yeah, but it can also be, ah, it's a mixture of both. And I think it's because of what the bad guy here, Matthew Hoffman, says later, that really made me think about it more. And I'll tell you in a second, it was a house that was away from neighbors. It was on a safe area, but across the street from it was just woods. No other houses. Now, that sounds great because it's like you're just like in the woods. Everybody leaves me alone. That doesn't sound so good. Neighbors can be tough. Neighbors are rough. Yeah. You know, I dig my neighbors now, but we, you know but you go through it with them. My neighbors are like super chill.

I dig my neighbors. Now, and it's nice to have neighbors that you like and that everybody's looking out for each other. And wave when you leave the names. Yeah, exactly. And everybody's just looking out for each other. That's the thing. Neighbors can be great for that when you guys are bros, which I love though we're bros now. Everybody's looking out and when they see weird stuff, they're the first ones that are going to be like, rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr because it didn't have any close neighbors, and it was across the street from Woods. Okay. And he also said their garage door,

just a little tidbit, their garage door was not, was broken, and it didn't go down all the way. It was a little like crack on the bottom where he could like shimmy it up. Yeah. That's what he said. He let out that like terrifying dark information

that was in his head. He was like PSA, without the attention of a PSA. But that freaked me out. And I was like, woo, glad I have neighbors. So like this, because this is really scary. But the thing is everybody was happy. They were healthy at this point.

The kids did well at school. They were playing sports. They were doing stuff after school. Everyone in Tina was working her ass off. Yeah. Later, you know, like the kids always said that they had everything they needed and Tina made sure of it. Oh, God.

Those kids were provided for us. It's like a very, just kind of like all American family, you know? Yeah, they're doing what they can to just like pay their bills. Right. The kids are all in able to do sports, just making sure that she can pay for sports. Everything seems like it's going great. Now during this time also, Tina found a friend in her new neighborhood, because although

she didn't have a lot of neighbors around her like nearby, there was houses down the road. And a couple of houses down was a woman named Stephanie Spring, and she immediately hit it right off with Tina. They were fast like best friends. They were like around each other all the time. Stephanie was apparently super energetic and fun. She was kind as well, just really sweet.

She was the perfect fit for Tina and the perfect fit for her family to be like an auntie Stephanie. You know, no, a family member said, quote, Stephanie would walk into a room and light it up. And she said that was just the kind of personality she had. She laughed a lot and seemed like a happy person all the time. Stephanie and Tina were the best of friends

and did everything together around Apple Valley. So that's what people who knew her said about her. Yeah. When two people who are best friends are described as lighting up a room, like together, by two different people, then I think they lit up a room. I would say these two are the ones that light up the room. I'd put money on it. I would too.

So in fall of 2010, unfortunately, like I said, Greg and Tina were a little bit on the rocks. They were deciding to break up and Tina was going to be looking for an apartment to look at the kids out of the house. This is why when she didn't show up for her shift twice, immediately people started worrying that something went sour with the breakup. Let me now say that Greg and everyone around them maintains their relationship, Rocky, but never abusive.

But obviously a lot of times when a breakup is happening and someone goes missing, you really do have to look at the X and what is happening here. Because you don't know what happens behind closed doors. Obviously in this situation, not really much was happening behind closed doors other than their relationship was breaking down time. But yeah, you don't know. People can, people snap. Yeah. There's a whole show about it. Yeah. And it's like, okay, but I will say I couldn't Yeah, you don't know people can people snap yeah Yeah, and it's like okay, so but I will say I couldn't find anything to say that there was abuse in this home So I just want to be clear on that of course now during that fall of 2010 before Tina failed up to failed to show up for work And Stephanie's boyfriend couldn't contact her and Tina's children didn't show up for school

There was an actual monster waiting in the woods across from their home. He had watched them for a little bit, camping out at night to see what their routines were, to see when people left the house every morning, because Greg had to leave very early in the morning because he was, I believe like 60 miles away from the target distribution center. So he had to leave it like 60 miles away from the target distribution center. Oh wow. So he had to leave it like 3 a.m. or something. So this monster was sitting there watching him leave

at a certain time, watching Tina leave at a certain time, watching those kids get on the bus. And that's the thing. I feel like when you're kind of like char, like in, oh my gosh, like you're a family like this, there are routines that just can't fall into these routines. And it's like, we say all the time, like, switch up your routine if you can. But when you have our family and kids especially, you leave the house at a certain time.

Exactly. You just do. It can be hard. So as much as you can do it, but it's like, there's only so much you can do here. Which is scary. And as he's doing this, watching their routines, he was planning what he later claimed was supposed to be a routine burglary where no one got hurt. I know. No, if I believe that I don't at all.

That monster's name was Matthew John Hoffman. So unfortunately, let's talk about Matthew John Hoffman for a second. Okay. Matthew John Hoffman was born November 1st, 1980. His parents were Robert and Patricia Hoffman. He was born in Warren, which is in North Eastern Ohio. His parents, he had like a pretty like whatever childhood. Nothing crazy happened. His parents, no. His parents divorced in 1997. He ended up moving in with his mother where they both moved to Knox County.

Oh, weird. We just covered a case from right? Isn't that weird? Yeah. He was quiet and kept to himself. Everyone who did know him said he was just a quiet kid in the beginning. He wasn't, you know, all aggressive or someone they worried about. She'd always... Always worried about the quiet ones. However, they did say that he would say things that would like, he started turning. As he got older, like hip-puberty and stuff, like he started acting strange. Okay.

Like it would just maybe be like raise their eyebrow. Like always the quiet ones. And again, not aggressive or mean, but just strange. He could be blunt, which like, same. He could be blunt. He marched to the beat of his own weird drummer, finding this weirdly relatable. I know, as I was reading this, I was like,

okay, we can't say anything about this. Oh, in the next line, I see the word stubborn. Yeah, his mom said he was very smart, but very stubborn. Sounds like someone I know. This is actually very terrifying. It was very terrifying. He wouldn't budge when he was fixated on something and he refused to admit that he was wrong. Oh, and she's literally sitting there with her head tilted blinking at me.

Oh, oh, girls. Oh, we, we diverge at some point. Don't worry. To to I will admit up until this point I was feeling weirdly like What is happening? Don't worry am I a sociopath? Ready we're gonna diverge hard right now. Yeah, he was obsessed with trees Can't say the same to two roads we diverge actually not like to a big degree But my case for the for this week has a little tree moment. Oh, hey, which is weird. It's a quick tree moment. Welcome to tree week. Yeah. Yeah. He was obsessed with trees. It wasn't like he just enjoyed and breathing oxygen, like all of us do. I do enjoy that.

I love breathing oxygen, so I love a good O2 moment. I suppose we all had that in common, but he just like, and he didn't enjoy just like seeing a cool spooky tree or like a pretty tree, which like I do. I love a spooky tree. Yeah, like give me that. Yeah, give me an Elm, a witch Elm, but he was fixated on trees. And part of it with him I will say it seemed to be that he was,

he loved heights. He was a risk taker, and in high school he got in trouble for being kind of rebellious. He would climb onto roofs and jump off onto trampolines and into pools. That's fun. It was like a thrill-seeking thing, and trees were the ultimate place to climb.

Trees, man. The ultimate thrill, man. I'm like, I love heights as well, but not trees are cool. Well, and he was outdoorsy. So this was just like his thing. It's like a natural, thrill, thrill-seeking thing. Couldn't be me. He also said, he was also said to like do things

like you would just be walking with him. And again, I'm gonna say right ahead of this. I always hate when people like, oh, yeah, he would do this weird thing. They need to, and I'm like, that was just a weird thing. That didn't mean that he was gonna go kill people. Like, can we not attribute weird behavior? Like that is very innocuous and not harmful to later.

He was a serial killer and that definitely told us like, what was it? He would do things like you would be walking with him and he would just like jump onto like a picnic table and like back flip off of it. Oh, parkour. And later, exactly. And later people were like, oh, weird.

And I'm like, no, it's not. That's normal teenage kid behavior. I feel like. You ever seen like the kids walking into target? They always do like jumping on, weird. And I'm like, no, it's not. That's normal teenage kid behavior. I feel like. You ever seen like the kids walking into target, they always do like jumping on those little things over the red ball. Yeah. Yeah, it's not that serious.

And apparently his neighbor said he made like a tight rope between two trees in his backyard and would like walk type rope all the time. Okay, that's not like serial killer behavior, but I would, if my neighbor started doing that, I'd be like, huh. It's my neighbor started doing that I'd be like Huh, it's one of those things where you just be like okay, just make you go Huh, does that make you happy? Cool because it's literally not hurting anybody

It's not really that business so I don't like when we like attribute these weird But I had to bring it up just because of how angry it makes me that we like I get that end up attributing these things Yeah, because of course we can go back and say, whoa, that's that's weird or like that strange behavior like yeah, like that I would I would be like, why are you doing that? But like it's not the making of a homicidal maniac rapist. So let's not just like pin a label on people who are like a little offbeat as like, yeah, I bet they might be homicidal maniac later. It's like they might just be eccentric. They might just be weird, right?

Like, you know, it's just like that's fine. Yeah, we're all weird. We literally open up the show with, hey, weird hosts. Pay attention to things that are harming other people or even harming that person. Or just things that are like violent, aggressive, that kind of thing.

Like tightrope walking is not a great thing. Tightrope walking in parkour are not things that you really need to be that concerned about in another person, just let them live. Parkour, parkour, he was weird, but it didn't indicate at all what he was capable of doing or even violence until later, which then he does show that there's some signs.

So we have things to look at. So again, they're things, we have things to look at. So again, they're things. We have things to look at that do indicate violence. So we can just leave those other things. So let's leave the parkour in the tightrope walking. And like the, I like to climb trees kind of thing when he was younger. To like the wayside. One of these things is not like the other.

Exactly. Because we do have violent behavior later that I think just makes people immediately, which I get it. We all do it. I do it, which you go into hindsight and you're like, oh, that's weird too. So yeah, he was weird. And it's like, okay, yeah, I guess.

But it's like a then diagram of it. It truly is, it truly is. Some things go over here in the innocuous category. Some things go in the holy shit, that's aggressive. And then some things go weird to all over the place. Now, it's hotly debated whether he had a legitimate attraction or fetish for trees. To be honest with you, I don't need to know.

No, I mean, I don't think you will know. That's called dendrophilia and actually translates to love of trees, which he definitely had, a love of trees. But it's kind of been turned to mean a sexual love of trees now, like a lot of in psychology, a lot of that is said. Now, it's basically a term for when you like literally fuck trees or you want a fuck trees. Like that's, it's become like a parafelia kind of thing. But I don't know if you want this far. There's no, he seemed to find comfort mostly in trees. And I think he was mentally ill. Yeah. I don't, I'm not going to sit here

and diagnose him. I have no idea what he, what he did or did not have. Sure. He seems like he was mentally ill in some way. And that he was struggling at times. And he was very obsessed with like, he struggled financially when he was on his own. And I think he very much fixated on getting money and getting enough money. And I think he found comfort in trees, which like, that's a whole different thing. That's where money comes from.

And do they? Sure does. Now, I definitely think you found comfort in it, and I think it turned into an unhealthy obsession, for sure. But nothing publicly released, at least, that I could find truly suggests that it was sexual. Okay. So maybe it's all just kind of like over the years

that's kind of been like thrown into the story, the sexual part of it. It's for sure unhealthy, and it's definitely strange. Right. And there is a possibility that it was sexual. I have no idea. He definitely had some kind of like, I don't know if I would use, I'm sorry, I'm like starting, I don't know if I would use fetish, but possibly because to me fetish kind of

indicates a sexual nature to it. Right. Again, there's no reports that he was fucking trees. There's no reports that he was like rubbing up on trees. He never said he wanted a fuck a tree. So what was it that people speculated? Because he was attracted to that. So obsessed with them. Like did he talk about them a lot?

Well, and as we'll see, the trees and leaves become a very big part of this crime. They do, and I know that, and we're gonna get... And we're gonna get... And we're gonna get... And we're gonna get... And we're gonna get... And we're gonna get...

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And he's like a deviant. Like he, as we're going to find out, he may have known that there was a 13-year-old girl in this house, and he may have planned this, and personally, I believe he did. So if he's going to do that, who is to say what else he is going to? Yeah. Well, and he definitely did know that there was, like, at least a young girl, because he saw the routine. Exactly. But people, you know, he likes to say that wasn't.

My intention was not to go in there because it was the 13 year old girl. And how did it end up the way it ended? But again, he's a lying sack of shit. Right. He also said that his intention was to go and rob the house which I also believe. Exactly. Now, after high school, Matthew took courses to study an industrial electrical engineering

because remember, he's a really smart kid at this point. What a waste. And he had a ton of jobs. He wasn't great at keeping a consistent and responsible thing going for long. Look at that. His odd ways or his boredom was really the thing that we get the best of him and he would be on to the next one. Okay. Because he would just start acting. He could really get into things and get into people's lives by being pretty normal and just quiet. And people were like, yeah, nothing's wrong with them. Right. And then he would start to let these strange behaviors out and people were like, okay, like I'm a little creeped out

now putting. Yeah, he exactly, he would unnerve people in ways. Like he would never assault them outright or like say anything that was like inappropriate to that degree, but it was like things that were just like, oh, I don't know. Probably one of those people where like when this did end up happening and getting reported, multiple people who worked with him were like, I always knew there was something off. Exactly.

I couldn't put my finger on it, but there was something. And those things make sense. Like when you can look back and go, you know what? I did always feel off around him. Right. That is something that happens. Trust your gut. The body knows.

It sure does. So my therapist says the body knows. Now so he just couldn't find something that made him happy or made him feel fulfilled. I mean, he was kind of struggling financially. And again, he was always bored, always searching for the next adventure or thing that he could do. But he was so very much underperforming for his intelligence, basically. Now, in 2000, he got a job finally, and he got this job

out in Colorado, in Steamboat Springs, which like, what a name for a place. That sounds beautiful and idyllic. It does, I would go there. Steamboat Springs. I love spring. Yeah. Now, he got a job with a plumbing company called Scott Barnes Plumbing. He was living at a place at the time because again, he's not making a ton of money. He was living at a place called the D-Bar K Motel. This was a pretty gnarly motel. And basically just like workers would sometimes stay

or live there while they worked there. It was, it wasn't great. So in September 2000, he found himself really down and really fighting urges to do something reckless again. He was getting bored. He was ready to move on to the next thing, but he's like, he's one of those like, restless motherfuckers that just has like,

all this shit pent up in him and he uses it in fucked up ways. Okay, before you got to the end of that sentence, I was like, I wonder if they're Sagittarius in his chart because Sagittarius always has to fight the urge to like, lick go away and do the next thing. Oh really? I'm a Sagittarius rising and I constantly feel the need to just run away. Whoa. And like do something like crazy

but then something crazy. But I don't. But not like reckless and harmful. Not reckless and harmful ever, but I just, I have a lot of things to do, so I can't- Yeah, you do have a lot of things to do. Yeah, I can confirm, yeah. So I fight the urge. You fight that, I appreciate that.

No problem. Now, so what he did was he ran out in Steamboat Springs and he stole three signs from a city park. These were huge signs. It was like hard to steal signs. Oh, these were huge wooden signs. Right. And they basically were the signs that said, like, welcome to Steambrote Springs. Yeah. That's what they said. And he just took them. And you have to like dig those out of the ground and they're in there pretty far. I'm not going to go too further into it. But it's hard to steal signs. I'm gonna do it.

And these were giant wooden signs that you literally had to dig out of the ground. You had to get a truck to haul them away. He stole three of them. And you have to lift them yourself. Buy him some. What the fuck? And why?

And if you look at him, you're like, you what? Now, people somehow, it's just people, police, actually, police people, they somehow traced to these signs back to the motel room where they found them. Like I think they're gigantic. They were able to like trace it in some way. It's really not that important, but they found them back there. And when they went back to the room, no one was in there.

And they, but they found the signs. I think two of them were in the room and one of them was like under the building. Why? Yeah. And so they were like, what? So they looked at the records and found that Matthew Hoffman was the one who was renting that room and the only one who was renting that room during that time period, but he was gone. He had skipped town. Is he stealing another sign? And it's like, he left the signs. He just stood up for a thrill of it.

So they track Hoffman down back in Ohio, and he just straight up admits to stealing those signs. He's like, yeah, I did it. And he doesn't give any reason. And they were like, why did you do that? And he was like, I just wanted to souvenir from Steamboat Springs or three. And he said he wanted the novelty of it all. He said, I'm doing it.

So he was like, yeah, I did it. I stole them. And then he told them, so they were like, you need to come back and face the charges now. And he was like, all right. He was a cool, cool, cool see you there. So while they're waiting for him to return, this crazy, weird story started circulating the police department because who the fuck

steals giant welcome to steamboat spring signs, then admits to it. And also he left them in the motel room when he said he stole them to keep us a souvenir. Yeah. So it was strange, and all the police officers are like, what the fuck? They're like, we have hats in town at CVS.

Yeah. You got a sweatshirt, bro. Like, what is wrong with you? You can get a magnet that says that, a picture of that sign, you can have. Get all of those little tracts. We'll give you a gift basket. We'll even give you the sign on a magnet.

Exactly. How about that? And it was strange, and it wasn't adding up. Yes. We'll give you a gift basket. We'll even give you the sign on a magnet. Exactly. How about that? And it was strange and it wasn't adding up. So another detective was like, wait, that name sounds familiar, Matthew Hoffman. Oh. And he was like, wait, I know that he works

for Scott Barnes Plumbing Company. And he said it was pertinent to him and he had remembered it because he read the names of the employees of that company a couple of weeks ago because there had been plumbers that Johnson Shipley Management Company had hired to provide services for a huge condo complex. Okay. It was like townhomes And that was the plumbing company that this management company had hired now the reason he was looking through this was that condo complex had weirdly burned to the ground two weeks ago.

Oh, shit. On August 28th. Oh, shit. Yeah. And it was only a couple of weeks after that plumbing company, the one that Matthew Hoffman worked for, had actually done work on that complex, dude. I didn't realize Arsson was a part of this. Oh, yes. Now Arsene was what they believed happened. They didn't think it just burned down accidentally. Well, it's crazy because they have ways of like telling. Yeah, which is so wild to me. Well, they had traced the point of origin of the fire to a unit seven. Now, that unit was the one that Matthew Hoffman had done

work in. Gotcha. So, they were like, okay, so this guy works for this plumbing company, that this management company hired to do work on this specific unit and this specific town home complex. Yes. And that complex burned down. Yeah. And now this guy stole three signs, left them in the motel room, and then just skipped town.

Like, he's acting all kinds of stuff. So they're like, I feel like we could talk to him about this. I feel like we have a nice little connection here. So he comes in from Ohio to be questioned about the signs formally. And all, when it's planned, he was like, yep, I'd be admitted it again. I stole the signs.

Then they start asking him about his plumbing job. And they're like, did you do a job in Unit 7? And he was like, yeah, I did. Just yep. They asked, they were like, oh cool. Why were your fingerprints on a ton of shit in the owner of that unit's vehicle? What?

And they were like, and why was that vehicle stolen and actually abandoned in the middle of town? Well, you bet. I'm very bullied on that one, motherfucker. So he was like, oh, I think I moved stuff out of the way when I was doing the plumbing job and like put some stuff in the car. So like that probably worked. And he was like, but like you didn't have access to that car.

Never have I ever needed my plumber to put stuff in my car. No, like the dawn dish soap and the extra sponges and the fucking dishwasher pods, they can just be put to the side. Yeah, you don't have to put them in my car. And these were like boxes and shit in the car. Right. And of like random stuff from the condo.

That like had nothing to do with the... That didn't need to be in a box and didn't need to be moved. Like weren't in the way of plumbing. And then he said something like he had, it was like a Subaru I think. And he was like, oh yeah, they were like, why was your the way of plumbing. And then he said something like he had, it was like a Subaru, I think. And he was like, oh yeah, they were like, why was your fingerprints on the Subaru? And he was like, oh, I think I touched it

because I just like looked at it. And they were like, why did you look at it? And he was like, I don't know. I love me a good Subaru. He was like, you know, who doesn't love a white Subaru? He said, I want to know what makes a Subaru. I want to know. I just wanted to know.

I just wanted to know. I just came to you. That was go. I just wanted to know. I just wanted to know. I just came through. You got those great things. Now, he fully admitted finally, you got me. He didn't admit to why he just said, you obviously got me. And they're like, what do we get you for?

They're like, they're like, we need to go a little further so that like, can you explain what we got you for? Uh-huh. So he fully admits. He goes, yep, I knew the unit owner was gonna be out of town because I had done that. I had ascertained that information

when I was doing the job for him. He said he was gonna be out of town for a while. So he said, I went back to that unit myself five times. I broke in five times. I used everything in it. I cooked myself meals. I showered there. I watched TV for hours on it.

You get the fuck out of my condo. He actually said, quote, I stayed in there. I watched TV for hours on it. You get the fuck out of my condo. He actually said, quote, I stayed in there and watched TV because my own place didn't have cable TV. I cooked myself meals and used the jacuzzi. Ew! Yeah. He also stole stuff.

Get out of my house. And here's what he did. He stole stuff and just left it other places. He stole a stuffed mountain lion. Question mark. Which like, what the fuck? left it other places. He stole a stuffed mountain lion, question mark, which like what the fuck? And a dresser and a bunch of color pink. He stole a dresser.

And he put it in the Subaru. In the man that appeared in the Subaru downtown. He was apparently planning to go get it again, but like it went awry. So also this poor man who lived here comes home. Yeah. His dresser is missing along with his Subaru. There's like a weird stench of ramen

and what jacuzzi in the air. And he's like, what the fuck happened? Except that doesn't even happen because he comes down to the place that's burned to a poor ass. I was just gonna say he didn't even get a chance to smell the ramen. He got, he came to a burn-down house.

He also stole a fax machine and a camera? A fax machine. What a fucking year was this? It was like 2000. Oh, okay. Then he said he started a fire in the unit after the five times hanging out there because he said I just couldn't clean up

all my fingerprints. They were everywhere. So he had to burn the entire building down. So he had to eliminate the whole crime scene. And this was tricky because remember, this is like a town home complex. He lit a unit on fire and the police were now asking him if he knew that there were other people

in the adjacent units. Right. And he said he knew they were there, but he was sure the fire alarm would warn them to get out of the building before they got hurt. However, that's risky. And how can you be sure it wasn't attempted murder?

I was like, you, that's tough. You can can you be sure it wasn't attempted murder? It's like, you, um, that's tough. Like, you can't take his fucking word. And he had used 10 gallons of gasoline to start the fire. And 16 people had to run for their lives out of those buildings. Oh, God, were there any kids? Everybody was fine. No one was hurt. Okay, good. But they had, they narrowly escaped.

And there was $2 million worth of data. I was gonna say, not only did they like, narrowly escape under their lives, but they lost everything. Now, he was charged with arson, unlawfully and knowingly breaking and entering into the condo, first degree aggravated motor vehicle theft, theft of property and reckless endangerment.

So why was it in jail for like a really long time? Well, he pled guilty. He didn't want to go to trial. He wrote a letter to the judge saying he now understood the full weight of his crime and that he was promising to be a better man and to not let these kind of impulses based on money and material shit control him anymore.

He ended up getting eight years in prison. That's it. And he actually told the judge at his sentencing, quote, I just want to say that I did have concern for the people in the other condos. Now that I think back to it, I would not have done it. I wonder. Which is like, thank you, sir.

Yeah, like, gee, hindsight. Thank you so much. I do wonder if he actually felt that way. Like, he was worried about the other people, or if this was an appearance thing. Yeah, I wonder. I don't know. I feel like this is more about appearances, and so you don't have to like spend forever in jail.

To me, at this point, I could see it being that he really did just want to eliminate the crime scene. More of an escalation. And that was just like, he just, I think he also just is like his way of thinking is like, well, they'll just leave. It's not a big deal. Like he doesn't think too much of it. Like he's not thinking too much, and I think in his said, he's probably like, well, they'll just leave. It's not a big deal. Like he doesn't think too much. Like he's not thinking too much.

And I think in his set, he's probably like, and if someone dies, someone dies. I don't think his intention in this case was to kill a bunch of people. No, it doesn't sound like a least. But I think collateral damage wouldn't have actually bothered him. Because the urge really does.

I really don't. Yeah, and I think this was all an act of him being like, I wouldn't have done it. No, I think you would have and I think if somebody died You would have been like oops. I cleared the crime scene. I think on nobody dead now the prosecutor said of this case later This is just a true miracle that there was not a loss of life This is not a quick childhood loss of judgment. This was a thought out premeditated plan, which is exactly you should have got more plan, which is exactly. You should have got more. Unfortunately, he was a model prisoner, and he got out in six years. So he shaved two years off of that. I'm not sure what two

more years would have done for him, but it still sucks. Now, he ended up getting parole, and he was able to move back to Ohio. They allowed him to serve his parole in Ohio. Yeah. He paid back some of that two million, though. So like, that's nice. He paid back some of that two million though. So like that's nice. He paid back 4800 of it. Okay. So like at least he repaid his debt to society, you know? Yeah. He was 48 and like what fraction of two million is that?

I cannot math that. No. I cannot math that. He was good on Pearl. He always met with this parole officer, seemed to be turning his life around, things were looking up a little bit. No, he didn't have a ton of friends.

He was a little bit of a loner, not like the super loner where you're like, what's that dude doing? It was just kind of like, he was just around. He wasn't really creepy at this point or off-putting. He was just quiet. For, you know, it seemed like he maybe learned his lesson at this point and everybody was just kind of letting him be because maybe they were like, maybe he was just quiet. Okay. For, you know, it seemed like he maybe learned his lesson at this point and everybody was just kind of like

letting him be, because maybe they were like, maybe he's just like, we're like, let's only marinating in the consequences of his actions. So let's not aggravate this arson, man. Let's not poke that bear. So for a while, he was just camping out a little bit and living in his car,

because he didn't have enough money to really get a place. Okay. But he was working, he wanted to work to get somewhere of his own. So he would often just kind of like wander around the woods and like got to know the area and the forest really well. Wander around the woods. I would like just climb trees a lot.

Okie dokie. Yeah. And he had like tree climbing gear too. So he was like a avid climber. I mean, that's, I don't know. A lot of people that just like climb trees all willy-nilly. I don't think I know anyone who climbs trees willy-nilly. I don't, yeah.

They're not a lot, I don't. But I do wonder if like there's more of them than I would ever know. Yeah, who knows. I don't know if people are open about their tree climbing. Abilities or pensions, you should be. I think it's fine. I wanna know.

Just don't go down this path, but I'm just like, so is this super weird like to people wander the woods and climb trees a lot? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not here to judge you on your like, if you like to climb trees, like climb fucking trees, just be careful. Yeah, be careful. But like, when you put it in context with later, it gets weird. Yeah. That's when it gets weird. The tree climbing itself not weird. It gets a little weird in a little while. Okay. A little, I mean a lot, not a little, not not slightly very much so. This case confounds me. Yeah. Now luckily for him he ended up somehow meeting a woman and starting a relationship with her. Did he meet her in a tree? He might have met her in a tree. I don't know.

I don't think so. He was like, you? Oh my goodness. Good girl. They just swung to each other for a minute. They never ran into anybody on this elk before. No, but at the elk, this is not a tree. See, clearly not fun.

Elk. On this animal before. Now, he got a job at a tree trimming service. So he's really just leaning into it. This service was called Fast Eddie's Tree Trimming, and he ended up making a little money. He was doing well, he got a small home for himself. Should've paid off the rest of that two million.

He was looking up. And eventually his girlfriend and her son, who I think was eight years old, that the time moved in with him. What the actual fuck? Yeah. So they had two dogs seem to be the American dream everything was going fine This is so weird. Now let me tell you right now his neighbors said they really liked him

He was a nice guy their kids and his girlfriend's kids would play together like They would let their kids go over to his house and play outside Like he was a very normal human being seemed like when he was first in this relationship, he was settled. And that part of his personality came out where he was like a bird. They said he was quiet, but not unnervingly quiet, not rude.

Yeah. As was well established, he was a very outdoorsy guy. So he still loved trees, and he was teaching kids in the neighborhood. So out here with these trees still loving on those trees. And at this point, he was using it in like a positive way. Okay. Because he was teaching kids in the neighborhood how to climb them and teaching them like the different types. And like he would be there to spot them and like kind of just like showing them leaves and he would be there to spot them, and just showing them leaves,

and showing them how to name different ones. He was being a nature guide kind of thing. Interesting. And he seemed to love the squirrels. Again, not in a gross way. Nanna, a weird way. But little weird. He just liked squirrels.

So he liked feed squirrels. I mean, people have pet squirrels. Kids would be psyched to be there weird. He just like squirrels. So he like feed squirrels. I mean, people have pet squirrels. Kids would be psyched to like be there when he was feeding the squirrels. So like everything seemed like it was like, okay. Maybe he's turned it around. Maybe he spent the time in prison, he did that shit. Yeah, he's gonna now just be like a weird eccentric

neighbor nature guy. Sure you guys. Which gosh, I wish he did. I know. Now, it was towards the summer of like 2010, that things suddenly started turning the other way. As they do. Because remember, as we have well established,

Matthew Hoffman is not great at staying in one spot for a long time and doing the same thing for a long time at being responsible for a long time. He gets bored, that urge to be reckless. It's about that time. So, neighbor said he suddenly became really grumpy and really off-putting. He all of a sudden was just like, in one day, his two dogs just disappeared. With no explanation, one neighbor actually said, quote, I believe in my heart he killed those dogs. He started pulling back and acting strange. I don't know what set him off.

He was just getting more and more weird. Oh no. Now, suddenly, he began acting more like a survivalist for no reason at all. He was catching the squirrels now and killing them to eat. See, I just think that's a really bad plan if you're a survivalist because lots of times squirrels have rabies. That's how to survive in the wild with Ash. Thank you for tuning in this week. Thank you. The way with another hot tip. Probably never. Probably. You can catch us again. Never. I literally have a shirt that says indoorsy.

But I know enough to know that you don't eat squirrels. Yeah, he was. I mean, I don't know. Maybe there's a little bit of fun. No, I don't want to talk about that. Yeah, people eat squirrels, but I don't, but like people do. But he was eating squirrels all of a sudden, and the thing was, like, he liked these squirrels. Like, he was like growing out with these squirrels for a while. So like, why are you suddenly killing them and eating them? Like, and he would like, some people,

his ex-girlfriend said that he would barbecue them. Is that when she left? No. So I can't imagine coming home to a couple of squirrels on the bobby. I think she, this is definitely when she started being like, I don't know about this. Because she said he just suddenly turned.

Like, he wasn't like this before. And now that shit is getting weird, even the neighbors who knew them as like a little like pseudo family, were noticing that like her behavior was starting to turn. Like she was getting like really depressed and quiet and was like not really speaking about it a lot. And like they were like what is going on? They could tell something was really a rye in this relationship like it had to sour. Well, in season, such a weird spot too, because her child lives here, and she lives here,

and it's like, she's not gonna let them go. She's probably wondering, do I have to find a new place for me and my kid to live, because this guy's going off the rails? Exactly. Now, in that fall, she finally did break things off. Yeah. She said it was just, his erratic mood changes,

and his really strange behavior was just, she was, like you said, she had a son. was just, she was like, you said, she had a son. Yeah. And she was like, he doesn't need to be around this. You need to be by yourself or you need to figure stuff out. But she came back October 24th just to pick up some of the remaining things she had left in the house.

Oh, it's always such a fucking long process. And that's a very dangerous time when you come back to get the stuff and shit got wild. Oh. Now in the police report, she said, quote, we were in his living room talking and he got upset and pushed me against a wall. He had his forearm up against my neck and was choking me. Oh my God. I got loose, but he grabbed me again and we tumbled over a chair to the floor.

I was fighting to try and get him off me, but he choked me on the ground. She said she was scared of him and thought that he was going to kill her. Yeah. She wanted to get out of... She was like, I just want her him out of my life for good. So she did file a police report, but she never pressed charges. Oh. Which everyone has their own reasons for doing that. Yeah, absolutely. And she really was like, I just wanted to get away with my son and just get him out of my life for good. I totally wanted to get away with my son and just get him out of my life for good. I totally understand that.

I didn't want anything else to do with him. I made the police report. That's the end of that. And you know, when you press charges, it's like sometimes these things go to trial. It gets expensive. Yeah. There's so many reasons why people don't always press charges. Obviously now you can say back like you wish that charges were pressed, but like you

got to understand that it's like I could never imagine being in that situation. It's a harrowing experience. And with your child. Right. Now, he had got that job at Fast Eddie's Tree Trimming Service, and at first, like I said before, everyone there thought he was great. It was during that time where everyone was like, wow, what a normal dude. He was on the F and F's love's trees.

But then after a while, during this whole period, the demeanor started changing at work as well. He wasn't able to hold it together in both spots. And he was changing completely. And he suddenly became strange and really creepy to people. People were like, he just gave off a vibe suddenly. And people at work were becoming very wary of him.

And he was now actually just hanging out in trees for hours and hours. Oh, so like, I know I've said it before that like he really likes trees. That's like part of his whole pathology here. But now, and like he liked climbing them before he liked being in them, he liked being around them. But it was like somewhat on a normal just like, wow, he really likes trees level. Now he's just sitting up in trees in his yard for hours. His neighbors said that he would just sit there and also watch them like sit from his vantage points and like see people and he would just do it forever.

Like what do you do to stop somebody from doing that too? Because that feels like a weird fucking experience. A weird violation of something. That feels like I wanna call the police on you, but what do you do to stop somebody from doing that too? Because that feels like a weird fucking experience. A weird violation of something. That feels like I want to call the police on you, but what do I say? But I don't even know what to say. Like, this, hey, my neighbor's watching me from his tree again. Can you stop him?

So imagine a grown man who is your weird neighbor just sitting in a tree for hours and hours, just touching leaves, staring at everybody, staring at you. He would fall asleep up there, sometimes he would eat up there. He would just hang up there. If that was all he did, it would be strange, but somewhat harmless

because you're just like, you're being kind of voyeuristic, which that should be taken away. Right. But like if you just wanna hang out and a tree somewhere and not look at anybody else, like that, we can't stop you from doing that. Yeah, you just wanna buy from your tree, go off, but like don't stare at me while you do this. But don't look at anybody else, like that, we can't stop you from doing that. Yeah, you just wanna buy from your tree, go off,

but like don't stare at me while you're doing this. But don't look at people's houses, and also, what? You're gonna have me like paranoid of like the trees. Just look for trees, man. I'm gonna be like driving and looking at the tree tops, like you would learn. Well, and unfortunately that's not all he did

was just sit and trees for hours, because again, if he wasn't hurting anybody else and he wasn't like voyeuristically looking at anybody else, sit in a tree for hours, do what you want to do. What else, what does he do? That's not all he did. What did he do? So at his job, you know, his boss suddenly found out, like, because people are starting

to look into him now because they're like, you're acting weird. So his boss was already like, he turned weird and this is strange and I don't know what happened. Yeah. Then the boss found out that he actually lied about his experience as a tree trimmer to get the job. And he had also not disclosed that he had been in prison for that whole sin, stealing welcome to steamboat spring

signs and lighting a condo on fire with 16 people in it. After spending many, many days and somebody else's condo. So he was fired from this tree trimming job. But then that is going to set off a mother fucking, I don't even have a lance of anger. And it's beautiful, right? It's fucking like a true author. There you go. She wrote a book. She wrote a book by it. Now he's down a job and he's starting to really spiral. He's down a job. He lost his sister's I was just trying to say, he's spiraling.

And then his electricity was shut off because he didn't have any money to pay for it. It doesn't sound like he's using it a lot anyways. Well, he was also, he was like a computer guy too. So I think now that's shut off. He's taking that as like a personal hit. And there's just nothing to distract him. He's just got trees and his anger.

So now he's breaking into homes for fun like he did before. Oh, I hate it. He starts doing it. God, I hate it so much. Whenever we talk about people breaking the homes, I have nightmares for home and home and vacation. It's so amazing. And he's doing it just to like steal things,

but also just for the thrill of it. Because again, he's in that whole vibe where he needs that thrill. Paul Hull says it always escalates with these home invasions. Exactly. He also says, Pello. He does say Pello. But, yeah.

And I agree with him that not about Pello, but about the fact that these always escalate into something else if they are not caught. Right. Now, November 2010 is when he found a home that he zeroed in on and decided to watch to make his next target. So he sat across the street from that home on King Beach Drive in Apple Valley, the home of Tina Herman.

There was that big stretch of woods where he could camp out across from it, which he did, and he watched that house, the Cummings and Goings, and November 9th at 1am, he made his move. Ugh. He parked a mile away from the house, and he walked through the woods to get there.

In the middle of the night, he brought with him a sleeping bag, and he camped out one final time across the street from the house. In the woods. It's so creepy. So there, in his fucking sleeping bag, he watches as the kids go to school, he watches as Tina goes to the grocery store. She left the house to go to the grocery store and get gas.

And as she went to the grocery store, he entered the house. Now she returned home for like around noon, I think from the grocery store in the gas run. As soon as she entered the home and walked to the kitchen, Matthew Hoffman jumped out and attacked her. Oh God. He dragged her to the bedroom and hit her in the head and stabbed her with a hunting knife he had brought with him. That's what tells me that he did not go just to rob this house. Why do you have a hunting knife?

He claimed that he was only planning to rob this home, but like Ash just said, and I just wrote in my notes why the fuck did he bring a hunting knife? Right. He claimed he waited for everyone to leave the home so he could rob it in peace and then leave undetected, but he brought a large, serrated hunting knife with him. No. Now, what he said about this was, quote, I confronted her and made her get onto the bed lying face down. I believe that we were in their bedroom. I had a blackjack. I was going to try and knock her out. I hit her a couple of times in the head,

but this would not knock her out. It was not doing the job and I started panicking. And that's when he started stabbing her. So while this was happening, Antina is being brutally beaten and stabbed in her bedroom, Stephanie sprang entered the home because she and Tina had plans to look at apartments together that day. That's the other, like, just horrible part about wrong place.

Wrong place, wrong time. Wrong place, wrong time. Not only that, but the fact that they weren't even going to be staying in this house much longer. Nope, they were going to be leaving. And she found them, came upon them and immediately tried to help, but was overpowered by Hoffman and chased into another room. She went into Sarah's bedroom where she was killed. Hoffman stabbed her twice viciously in the chest and then continued to stab her long after

she was dead. Oh, blood was everywhere. Later, he said of this, quote, I grabbed the knife that I had put down on the nightstand and stabbed the woman on the after she was dead. Blood was everywhere. Later, he said of this, quote, I grabbed the knife that I had put down on the nightstand and stabbed the woman on the bed through her back twice. I chased the other woman down and stabbed her a couple of times in the chest. Then he went back to Tina and stabbed her more and more and more.

So he clearly enjoyed. He stabbed her long after she was dead too and also tore her abdomen open with the knife. Oh my. He then dragged Tina into the bathtub and used his hunting knife to dismember her. He said he had to pull her joints apart because he didn't have anything to cut through bone with. Oh my god. He put the parts of her into trash bags.

Meanwhile, and this is an animal thing, so quick trigger. Oh, no. Give you a second. The family dog was going nuts. No. He said he knew someone would hear it and become suspicious or even call the police, so he killed the dog and dismembered it as well. He did the same thing to Stephanie Spring. What I don't understand is why he didn't just let the dog out. He had just let the dog run away. I mean, I don't understand this whole fucking thing, but he said, quote, I took the bodies into the bathroom

and began processing the bodies to dispose of them. I use garbage bags from within the house and place the bodies within. You know what, too? That totally tells me that his dogs didn't just disappear because there's no way you can do that. That, like, would kill you dog. He then poured motor oil over the huge blood drag marks

because it would like dilute it and spatters that were everywhere. He was putting the motor oil on it. And then he was planning to burn the home down and he figured the motor oil would stop them from seeing how much blood was there. Huh. What he didn't count on is Sarah and Cody coming home from school. When they arrived, there was blood in the entryway and they immediately were concerned. They called for their mom, both of them. And Hoffman came charging at

them out of nowhere. Sarah said he literally charged out of nowhere at them. He tackled Cody as he tried to flee out the front door. Sarah was able to run to her room and try to get her phone out of her bag to dial 911. Before running to stop Sarah, Hoffman instinctively stabbed Cody in the back of the head as he tried to run out of the door. He was dead immediately, and he stabbed him a couple more times when he fell.

Now quickly about Cody because like we should know, I said before that these were like super kind kids. He loved baseball, he loved anything athletic, he was a goofball, and his father Larry said quote, you know how kids can be pretty mean at times, excluding others from their group. Unpopular kids are kind of pushed to the side. But when Cody saw that kind of thing, he would go out of his way to include those kinds of kids, and he wouldn't allow any bullying around him. So then Hoffman ran straight for Sarah into her room. She had been trying to get her phone free to call 911, but he got her before she could dial. She said he went to stab her and then just stopped and instead cut the cord from the fan in her room and tied her hands with it.

Not the phone. And then he told her he would kill her if she made a sound. He later said he didn't know why he didn't just kill her too. And he said he just couldn't bring herself to himself to do it. too. And he said he just couldn't bring herself to himself to do it. That's what he said. That doesn't make any sense to me though, because you just killed what an 11 year old.

It makes perfect sense. He went in there to get that girl. Yeah, well that's exactly it. That's what makes sense. That's what I mean. I couldn't bring myself to kill her. Of course you couldn't. That was your whole plan.

Exactly. Your whole plan was to kill everyone around her and take her. Right, that's why that statement doesn't make sense. Good try. No, you killed everybody else. But you love super tend. That was not his intention at all.

I just, you know, and by the way, he's a rapist. So that just happened, like, I don't know. No, this was your intent all along. Your intent was to wait in that fucking house. Maybe you planned on stealing some shit. I'm sure you did, but you planned on killing anyone that got in your way and you were gonna get that girl. Right.

And there's no thing in his past about rape or sexual assault or being like a pedophile. No. Cause she's 13. No. That's so weird. Nothing that I could find and nothing like, really reports or anything.

Well, like he was around children, have a criminal record before that condo thing. So strange. Because I agree with you. I think that's why he went in this house. I think that's why he wanted to. Because it just makes sense. Like his story, other than like his story that he tells

doesn't make sense. Yeah, it really happened here. He was too, and he went right into like dismembering bodies. Right. He went, we find out later where he put them, which I'll tell you later, that was some very much planned out. Right. He, when we find out later where he put them, which I'll tell you later, that was very much planned out. Right. He had very much planned out that he needed the bodies in parts and in bags to be able to do what he did later. I know it. It just, there's no way this guy, his story is bullshit. But he didn't kill Sarah and he just tied her

up with that electrical cord. He said he was planning to burn the house down. He could have gotten rid of that evidence, but he said, suddenly, I just had this urge to keep her alive. That was his whole thing. So he gagged her. He put a pillowcase over her head and then brought her down to the basement. He then took the rope from an old sled

in their basement and tied her legs together. She said, quote, he was really angry. His voice was like a yellow most. He was telling me what to do. It was like when someone yells at you and it's a command, which is so scary. He then brought her upstairs and threw her on the kitchen floor and left her there while he cleaned up the scene. So she's just lying there, gagged, bound, and terrified while this guy mills around her home, he was dismembering the rest of the bodies and cleaning up the evidence.

Like, I hope nobody ever has to feel the fear that must have been coursing through that little cross-thing. And she couldn't move, couldn't get out nobody's around to hear her. And then he threw her into Stephanie's Jeep with a ton of trash bags and blindfolded her. She had no idea she was sitting next to the dismembered bodies of her mom, brother, dog, and mom's best friend. Yeah. So he drove her a while and it was dark out. She said he told her, once they parked somewhere,

he told her stay still, do not move. And he said, I'm gonna be watching you. And then he left the vehicle. So she decided to take a peek, because she was like, fuck you, dude, I need to know where I am. So she looked under the blindfold, she was able to maneuver and they were at a baseball field and it was dark.

And he said he came back suddenly as soon as she looked and was yelling at her, I told you I was gonna be watching you. Like so he really was. And he said if you try to look again, I'm gonna kill you. And then he tightened her blindfold. And she said she'd seen the trash bags when she lifted her blindfold, but she had no idea what they were. Of course, of course. So he left her in that car again for over an hour. And what he was doing was walking to where he had left his car the

night before, which was a Toyota Yaris. and he had left it to walk to that patch of woods across the street from their home. Right. So it was a long walk to go back there. Yeah. And he drove the Yaris back to the stolen jeep and then transferred Sarah into his Yaris. Oh. Now he drove her to his home and carried her into a bathroom.

He then took the blindfold off her, and she saw a strange sight. The walls were white, but in this particular room that she was in, there were drawings all over them in black ink. There were animals and people like weird, deformed people, and like yin and yang symbols and peace symbols, and all of it was just like trippy looking and like scribbled on there.

And like, I guess this is according to the book that I read about this case, which let me tell you what it is because it is like, this book is so extensive and it's so well done and it's long. You'll get everything you need out of this book. Let me tell you what it is. It is called The Girl in the Leaves by Robert Scott.

And I'm telling you, of course, I will link it like we always do. This book is amazing. And in that book, he says that there was one, like the faucet had a drawing around it that made it look like a guy with like the faucet was coming out of his mouth. What the fuck? Which is just like so trippy and scary. And like, can you imagine that's what you see after you've just been kidnapped? No.

Like, I don't necessarily have that. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. So much anxiety. And then he duct taped her and tied her with a rope in the bathroom, told her that he would be back, but he said, I have people watching the house. So if you try anything, you'll die.

And he had already proven the last time I, when I say I'm watching you, I'm watching you, so she's not going to move. He then went back to the stolen Jeep and got the trash bags filled with dismembered human remains. He then stopped at a Walmart where he is on CCTV footage walking around very casually, and this is in the middle of the night, by the way, bought a blue tarp and more garbage bags. And he also bought a turkey sandwich

in a $1 Halloween shirt. Oh, mm-hmm, okay. Very casual, too, on that scene. You watch that CCTV footage knowing what he has just spent hours doing. And that there is a roll-in. 13-year-old girl duct taped in his bathroom at home, and people dismembered in his car in the Walmart parking lot.

And he's just walking by people just, no, but no big deal. So he now disposes of the bags with Cody, Tina, Stephanie, and the dogs bodies. I'm going to tell you where he disposed of them in part two because that at this point was not known. So I just wanna tell you that later. And he then drove the Jeep back to Tina Herman's home and left the tarp and garbage bags in the garage, then got into the pickup truck that was in the garage

and planned to drive it to take to the gas station to get gas to then burn the home down. So this was their pickup truck? Yeah, you just stole it out of the garage. But the truck kept stalling so he had to abandon it somewhere and walk to his yarris again. Now this is the point where the lights were off initially, no one was in the driveway. The cops saw that, nothing's going on. Then when he comes back, suddenly the No one was in the driveway. The cops saw that. Nothing's going on. Then when he comes back, suddenly the car's back in the driveway. The lights are on.

That's because he came back. So the truck kept stalling. So he had to abandon it somewhere. He walked to his yards again. He was a fucking mess. Like he was, this was, I believe he had a plan, but I believe what happened is he had no idea that Stephanie Spring was going to walk into that house through him.

Stephanie Spring, I think, was the thing that threw off his plan. Other than that, I think he was going to kill Tina. He was going to dismember her. He was going to put her in a trash bag. He was going to wait for those kids to come home and he was going to kill Cody. And then he was going to take Sarah and it would burn the house down the end. Right. But I think another adult walking in unexpectedly while he was in the middle of everything through him so far off kilter. Right. And then

everything just became because now there's an extra car that you have to get rid of. There's this. There's that. There was another whole person that you're going to have to now figure out what to do with. I think it threw him totally off kilter in this, there's that. There was another whole person that you're gonna have to now figure out what to do with. I think it threw him totally off-kilter in this, because he's just a fucking wreck. Yeah. Like, truly. So now, instead of going back to the crime scene, like, you originally was going to to burn the place down, he just goes home, because he's exhausted.

And he said he was just like, he went home to Sarah who's still tied up in his fucking trippy bathroom. Meanwhile, Sarah had been trying to come up with a plan. Mm-hmm. And she realized the really only thing she could do here was comply and try to appeal to something inside of him. Right. And she was like, he stopped before he killed me. So clearly, there's something. Maybe I can appeal to something here So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something.

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So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's something. So clearly, there's be able to get words out. No. She asked him what he did for a living. She was so fucking strong and smart about this. I'm in awe. And he answered and talked to her, but it would also kind of shut down a little bit and get cold at times. But after a while, he decided they were moving from the bathroom. And he wasn't going to blindfold her anymore. Mm-hmm. Which makes me nervous. He took her out of the room after hours and hours and she saw his home for the first time. There were leaves everywhere.

You heard that. There were leaves, leaves from trees, crunch crunch leaves, covering the floors and stacked up in bags along every single wall. The walls were literally leaves. What the fuck? Floor to ceiling leaves in every room except for one tiny bathroom. And she was like, what the fuck is with the leaves, bro? Like she was like, what is this? Right. Because she was like, my immediate thing was like, I'm going to ask you about this.

That's for sure. She was like, your bathroom is something,. Because she was like, my immediate thing was like, oh, I'm gonna ask you about this. That's for sure. She was like, your bathroom is something. Well, Guy, we gotta talk about this. So she was like, what's with all the leaves? And he was like, oh, I used them for insulation. I don't know about that. Honey, what?

I feel like you used them for really gross things. He also, she was like, I let that go. Like, I'm not even gonna ask any of them. She's like, I didn't know her. I need to know more. Sure. And then he said that he had not killed her brother and mother and that he had not killed her brother and mother

and that he had let the dog out of the house. So he's just an asshole. He's a lying sack of shit. He then told her that he would feed. He was like, are you hungry? And she was like, I'm actually very hungry. And she was like, do you want some squirrel? I have some in the freezer.

And she was like, I'm not that hungry. Like no. And she literally told him like, no, I'm not eating squirrel. And when she was like, no, he was like, I'd have cereal. So he gave her cereal with sour milk. Ew, what the fuck? Yeah. And she said she ate it

because she didn't know when she was gonna be able to eat again. Oh my God. He then tied her to him and took a nap because he was exhausted and tied her to him. Ew, ew, ew. And that is where we are going to end for part one. Because it gets caught pretty quick. So don't worry, he's going to be taken downtown, but it's wild. It's wild.

And it gets rough. And this guy is, I don't know what his thing is for trees could be called, but it's something. Fucking weird dude. It's really something, and he's a really scary individual, and I'm so glad that he is never going to be able to walk outside again. All right, well, I'm excited for part two. Hope you are. Yeah, you are as well.

And, oh, sorry, I just cracked my knuckles. We hope that you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But I don't even, like, I'm so stressed out right now, but not so weird that, like, you do all the things that Matthew Hoffman did, like, break into somebody's condo, find out what makes a Subaru or Subaru, like, I just leaves murder. I, just stop. None of it.

If you want to climb a tree, climb a tree, leave it at that. Yeah. Leave it at that. Yeah, leave it at that. Nature is great, but not that great. Just climb one tree and then go home. Ugh. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts.

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