Morbid - Episode 341: The Disappearance of Heidi Allen Part 1

Episode Date: July 20, 2022

Heidi Allen disappeared on Easter morning back in 1994 from the convenient store she’d worked at for years. Her car was still parked in the parking lot when police arrived, her purse, keys and jacket were all behind the counter and there was still money on the counter and in the register, tipping off the police that this was not a crime motivated by robbery. The police began to look into two men after receiving a few tips and were pretty sure that they had the right guys… but did they?Check out this great resource about this case:Scrapped: Justice and a Teen Informant by Lisa Peebles & John O'brienSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y-P-O-D. Audible.com slash wondery pod or text wondery pod to 500-500 to try audible for free for 30 days. Angie has made it easier than ever to connect with skilled professionals to get all your home projects done well. Whether it's routine maintenance and emergency repair or a dream project, Angie lets you browse home on her reviews, compare quotes from multiple local pros, and even book a service instantly. So the next time you have a home project, just Angie that and start getting the most out

of your home. Download the free Angie mobile app today or visit Angie.com. That's ANGI.com. Hey weirdo's, I'm Ash. And I'm Alina. And this is morbid. Hello! Before we get into anything, this is not what we planned so high. Ooh, what's happening? No, I was just gonna say, I just realized we've been doing morbid for four years.

I know that is really wild. That's like bonkers.com. I know, it feels like a hundred years and two minutes. All at the same time. All at the same time. Yeah, like it feels like this has always been like our... Yeah. ...stick, our thing that we do together.

Like I don't remember life before. And I also feel like it just started. Yeah, it's a weird ass feeling. It is, it's been very weird, but very awesome. Very great. Very great. And you know what? Speaking of very great things,

you guys have really liked the butcher and the run playlist to that I made. If you didn't like it, I would question your sanity, to be honest, because we listened to that playlist in the car a lot, and it's pretty mom. It was really fun to make. I made it a long time ago, actually. I made it well before the book was coming out. It was just something I made to get me in the mood for writing. I was listening, because it was like your writing playlist. Yeah, and it was just like things that I pictured in the book and everything. So when it came time to be like, hey, you can share this with everybody,

it was like, oh, fun. But also like kind of terrifying. Because it's like this is how I see the whole thing. But you guys have been awesome. And it seems like you guys have really dug it, and I appreciate it, and you guys rule. And I literally can't wait until September 13th For you to read this book because I just can't wait I can't wait guys. Oh, I'm so excited I'm so excited you guys have been so fucking amazing and Yeah, I'm just really excited. I'm going on a little road trip in a couple weeks And I'm gonna bring your book along for the right and finally finish it because I've read the first like future. I've basically read the whole book because I got to read it while you're reading it.

And I've read the first few chapters, but then I've been like a little busy. I've been a little busy. A little bit busy, but I want to finish it. But I want to finish it. Yeah, sorry. Sorry I'm too busy to read your work. No, I'm not. I have.

And I'm going up. And I'm going up. And then can you write another one? Yeah. Really? Yeah. I'm going up and I'm going up. And then can you write another one? Yeah, really? Yeah. I'm already writing something else. Oh, hot take, everybody. I'm already writing something else, so stay tuned.

There's like a couple times a year that I wish this podcast was visual and that was one of them. Cause I was just like, cause you were like, oh, but it's not happening, so don't ask. And I'm just kidding. And no, we're not doing visual.

No, no, no. If you saw what we both look like, oh, but it's not happening. So I'm asking, I'm just kidding. No, we're not doing visual. No, no, no. If you saw what we both look like, yes. How holy eye bags Batman and what we're wearing right now is really very much who we are as people. Yeah, I know we're not supposed to banter, but we're only two minutes and 48 seconds in. Yeah, it's okay. So I'll describe a lady's sweatshirt.

No, we were on the phone with my grandma and I said, that's hot because I am wearing a simple life t-shirt. That has. She sure is paracentical on it. Drew got it for me for Christmas. And it's my favorite shirt. It's like them and like the overalls, like the farmer. Yeah, like that farmer picture.

And it just says the simple life and tinkerbells on it too. And that makes me happy. And then I said, that's hot to my grandma. And I was like, oh, that's because I'm wearing my Paris Hilton shirt. And she was like, oh, and what's a Lena wear ring? And I was like, um, my grandma doesn't know what stranger things is.

So I was like, she's wearing the shirt where a girl is levitating over her friends who are sitting in a circle in a graveyard. They're a little concerned about her, but don't worry, because Max's favorite song, running up that hill is playing by Kate Bush. It's a great sweatshirt. I'll post a photo of it,

and I'll link the Etsy shop that I got it from because they were great. Yeah. And it's a very comfortable sweatshirt. Oh, hey, it's an Etsy shirt day because I think Drew said he got this off of Etsy. There you go. Cool.

Well, and I know a lot of you are like me and you're obsessed with stranger things, and I know that this is something that a lot of you will like, so I'll post it so you guys can scoop one because I don't know what it is about white sweatshirts. They're always the most comfortable. I don't know what it is. Alina and I have a theory going that there's

some kind of science behind a white sweatshirt because I recently bought one from the Giggly Squad podcast, which does say I hate men. I don't hate all men, but you know, it's a cute sweatshirt. And it's so comfy and it's white. And I think there's some kind of science behind that. There is. There's got to be some kind of science. It's comfy because you'll never wear it because you'll get it dirty. There you go. That's what it is. But yeah. So that's been the fashion segment of today. And now we should always have one of those. I but we're ready to jump right

into it now. We are. We are going to start in kind of a weird place. Today we're going to be talking about the disappearance, the abduction of Heidi Allen, but we're going to start in a little bit of a place that we usually wouldn't start at, which is the search for the missing person that we're talking about. Okay, Heidi Allen. So Richard Tibido had become involved in the search for Heidi Allen because he was one of the last people to see her alive. Heidi vanished from the DNW convenience store and gas station on Easter morning in 1994 and Richard had come in that morning

to grab a couple packs of cigarettes before he and his family, you know, went about their day to celebrate Easter. So Heidi rang up this transaction. This would be the last transaction of the day at 7.42 a.m. and according to Richard, you know, the two of them wished each other a good day, maybe said happy Easter and he headed back out to his van and headed home. Now later that day, he realized Heidi had gone missing, so he called into the police to let them know he had been at the D&W that morning. So the police come out to his girlfriend's family's house to take his statement. All very routine. His statement was pretty normal. He said, after he bought his cigarettes,

they went home, then he got ready with his family, his girlfriend, and she had two kids, and they were like super close, like it was a super close family unit. They get ready, they go to her family's house. And as they drive by the DNW, they see that there is some police presence and they're like, oh, just like kind of in passing common to each other. I wonder what's going on there, but don't think too much of it.

Yeah. Until they see the news segment. Ooh. So his girlfriend Theresa and her family, they were like, Richard, you gotta call the police, you know, maybe you saw something that you don't think is helpful, but will become helpful to the investigation. And so the police are trying to talk to everybody who was there that day, ruled them out as suspects, but the police weren't so

sure that they should rule Richard out as a suspect. Ooh, because they had received a tip from a guy that called Chris Bivens. He interestingly enough was actually dating one of Richard's family members. Oh, now Chris said he remembered driving by the D&W store that Easter morning. He said it was sometime after 8 a.m. And he said as he was driving by, he saw two men arguing with a girl out front. And then two days later, he called back and remembered

that the trio were arguing next to a two-toned van. Okay, who owned a two-toned van? Who? Rich Tibido. Uh-oh. So when Richard arrives at one of the first searches following Heidi's abduction, the investigators, they pull him to the side and they're like,

hey, can you fill out this form? Just gonna ask you a bunch of questions about your story, you know, the investigation, what you think happened, what you would do, and it's really just to rule you out as a suspect. So just go ahead, fill this out, let us know when you're done. So he's like, okay, I'm gonna fill it out the best I can, finish his up, pans it over, and the investigators are like,

okay, cool, thanks. Would you enter your girlfriend's mind coming down to the station and answering some more questions? So they're like, sure, definitely, hairs are starting to rise on the back of the neck, getting a little nervous, but they agree. Yeah, they would be at the station much longer than they anticipated that night. And that night would mark the start of a confusing web of an investigation, a take down of two men in this county and just years, like close to 30 years with unanswered questions.

But before we dive into that, you need to know about the girl who vanished Heidi Allen. So Heidi Allen, first of all, she just seems like the tits. Like she seems awesome. Of course. She was born September 14th, 1975, in New Haven, New York.

Her parents were Ken and Sue Allen. And she was like the quintessential Virgo. She had all her ducks in a row. On November 14, 1975 in New Haven, New York, her parents were Ken and Sue Allen, and she was like the quintessential Virgo. She had all her ducks in her row. I love it. Her family was like super close. Most of them actually lived on the same street. And her sister, Lisa, remembers growing up with Heidi

and just how sweet she was. She said that she would share her lunch at school with kids who didn't have enough. Like she remembered a specific instance when Heidi got home and was super hungry. She was in elementary school, she was super little. She was like, I'm so hungry and they're like, why are you so hungry?

You've had lunch at school. And she was like, no, I shared because so-and-so didn't have enough. Oh my God, what a sweetie. And that young to just have that inside of you. Exactly. And then when she got older, she became an intern at the elementary school.

And this was something she was doing because her goal one day was to become either a teacher or like a children's counselor. So she's an intern at the elementary school. And she forms this club for all the kids who have divorced parents. And she calls it the banana splits. Stop it. And it's just so that they can all have a place where they can go and talk about how

they're feeling and just know that there were other kids in their situation that they could relate to. That's so emotionally mature. And mind you, she was 18 at the time she disappeared, so she was probably like 17 or eight. That's really emotionally mature. Yeah, like in the banana split. So cute. Oh my god. Right? Adorable. And she was also known as a bit of a tomboy.

That's exactly how she described herself. And her sport of choice was volleyball. She actually played on her high school team. And actually, she was pretty tall. She was 5'11 and she was also just super talented on the court. Get it, Heidi. So she became known to her teammates

as the Tower of Power. Hell yeah. Isn't that awesome? Hell yeah, she did. Now, so she's working hard in school, she shared her lunch with other kids, she's making sure like children of divorced parents have a place and outlet where they can talk, killing it at volleyball, and on top of that, she's doing all this other stuff. But first, I have to tell you, she was absolutely beautiful. Yeah, she was. Like

beautiful. She had piercing blue eyes, but the older, like when she was a baby, but the older she got, they turned hazel. Oh, I love that. Of one of your lips. Yeah, one of my babes is doing that right now. And I read this and I was like, oh, like just like home for a second. Now she had like this sandy brown hair. It was like kind of blonde. It was like blonde, blonde, blonde, and brown. And she wore it super curly. I'm pretty sure she got perm's that, and she saved up the money and paid for her perm's herself. Of course, that was the look. Oh, you always know what I'm about to say.

I said she had the perfect 90s loop. There you go. No, it's true we say this all the time, but, and it's just true regarding everyone we say it about, she just seems like somebody that you would want wanna be friends with. Yeah. Like she had these kind eyes,

she had a super sweet smile, she had dimples, like yeah. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast American scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our newest series,

we look at the Kids for Cash Scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers, and often for committing only minor offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines. The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would

shatter the lives of countless children and force a heated debate about punishment, an America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon music or Wonder App. Just want to be your friend, and she just seemed genuinely sweet. And on top of that, like I was just saying, she was super smart and she was determined to set goals and follow through on them.

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doesn't break the bank, then join the movement and get 15% off today with free shipping and free returns by going to mvmt.com slash morbid. Again, that's mvmt.com slash morbid. So her senior year, she was actually taking extra classes at the local community college so that she could graduate not only with her diploma, but also her associates so that she could get a head start on the degree that she wanted to earn, which was in human services. That's amazing. This girl is just like, truly doing it all. Yeah.

Now, by the time she was getting close to graduating high school and basically almost finishing her associates, she had filled out more than 150 applications for jobs in her field. Wow. And she would share that she was willing to do whatever it took to get the job. They actually found one of the applications that she had filed. And on it, it said, I'm willing to work

from the bottom to do anything. I love this field and I'll start anywhere. That's amazing. That's somebody who's like in a job for the right reasons. Like wants to do this, knows that they might not be able to do exactly what they want right away and is willing to climb the ladder to get there. And that's somebody that's going to go far

because somebody who understands that nine times out of 10, you gotta start on the bottom rung of the ladder to get where you want and they're willing to hustle that way. They're the ones that are gonna work to get there. Totally. And she was like putting in work every single place

she wanted seemed. She'd been working at the DNW since she was 16 years old, all while doing school and everything. Yeah. At the same time. So she wasn't just paying for perms. She actually used some of the money that she made at work to buy herself her own car,

which was a Maroon Pontiac Sunbird Station wagon. Yes. Yes, like very of the time. Amazing. But it was unfortunately still parked in the parking lot of the DNW when the police arrived after hearing that hidey had gone missing. You always forget, like you were just telling me how awesome she was and I'm like, man she just sounds great. And then I completely forgot that this is why we're here. Right. That's the thing that sucks is why we're here. Right. That's the thing that sucks is you find out so much about these people and you relate to them and you find the hazel eyes.

You find a little something and you're like, oh, cool. And then you're like, oh, it hurts. Your heart sinks. Because you're like this person, you can never get to know this person. This person was never able to live to their full potential. No. And all their goals and dreams that they set for themselves were taken away from somebody else.

They submitted it. So Heidi actually wasn't even supposed to be working that morning, which speaks to her character even more. She had switched shifts with a coworker so that that coworker could spend time with her family that Easter morning. Wow, okay.

So Heidi's just a wonderful, wonderful human. She is. She celebrated Easter with her family the day before, and she handed out presents to all her family members while she's saying like songs from Peter Cotton Tales. Stop it. It's so pure. You're breaking my heart here. I know, it's, I was reading and I was just like, oh my god, it just got heavier and heavier. Now, so that would obviously be the last Easter

that Heidi got to spend with her family. And for the next 28 years, the town of New Haven would question what really happened that Easter morning? But before we get into everything else, I do just want to share a quote from a Heidi sister Lisa that just describes Heidi to a T. And does Lisa have a podcast? Lisa does have a podcast.

And it's called OneSister's Journey, dot, dot, dot, keeping it real. Oh nice, I love it. Yeah. So go check that out. Yeah, definitely go check that out. And she's that a persistor. I want people to know that she was a good kid.

She was one of the most joyful and selfless people. And I can only imagine she would have been an even more beautiful adult. She just wasn't given that opportunity. That's horrific. It is. And I think of you when I read that. Yeah.

Like her like any of our family members. I can't imagine just like having to talk about my family member like that. Because you live your whole life with your family members, especially if you get along with your family members. Which we do. Yeah, sitting there thinking like, man, like I always say, I'm like, man, like even my kids, I'm always like, man, I can't wait to see what kind of adults they are. Like, it's just going to be like a fun thing to watch them become the person they're going to become. And it's like, right. Her sister was like, oh, you know, like, it's going to be really interesting to see what kind of adult she is. And when you, when you, that gets just like taken away, right. And

you're like, I never get to see that. And I knew how great you were going to be. Yeah. I knew you were going to like move mountains. I just can't imagine. And feel that. Like I feel it in my heart a little bit. Yeah. It hurt. And we feel it on a level that's so far away. Yeah. From the actual people. It's just awful. It's just really sad. So that morning in 1994, honestly, it started off pretty normal. It was rainy and the roads weren't in a great condition to drive on. So Heidi's boyfriend Brett actually followed behind her as she opened up the store that morning. That's sweet. They had been dating for years at this point. And over the years, like people thought it was weird that sometimes he would open the store with her, like he would sit and watch her open the store. But I think, like people are trying to say it seemed

controlling, but I think he was doing it in a sweet gesture kind of way of making sure, you know, this is a convenience store. Like it's not the safest place in the world, and she's a young girl by herself. Yeah. I think he's just making sure that she doesn't run into any trouble. Yeah, I mean, I can say, like, I could see John doing that,

and not a controlling way, and I just want to make sure you're okay. Yeah, 100%. Because when I would work like, I'd like, nights at the hospital, and not a controlling way, and I just want to make sure you're okay. Yeah, and if way? 100%. Because when I would work like, I'd like, nights at the hospital, he was a basket case. Oh, I know. And there were times when he was like,

let me just drive you in and kick you up. Like, I don't want you to drive by yourself. I don't want you to, and it wasn't because he was like, I need to control you. It's like, I just want to make sure you're okay and I'm worried about you. Exactly. So to me, that's what that feels like. That's definitely what I think it was. Opening a convenience store is like that

That's like a risky job to have. Convenience stores get rubbed all the time. Mm-hmm. Like that's a really scary job to have a lot of the time Absolutely. It makes sense. Yeah, exactly. I think he was just being a sweet kid and it comes off that way to me and by all accounts They were very much in love. Brett would later say that Heidi would drive completely out of her way just to give him a kiss good night. Oh my God. And she would help him iron his clothes. Adorable. And they planned to start having kids together

once they were in their 30s. I'm obsessed with them. They seemed very much in love. And by all accounts, it seemed like Heidi loved him. Yeah. So they made their way inside the store. They opened up right around 5.45 AM. Brett stuck around, I think, for about an hour it seems

as Heidi got everything set up. And once people kind of started rolling in, getting coffees and stretch tickets and ciggies, all that. Heidi seemed like she was good to go. So Brett gave her a kiss and he said, I'll see you in the afternoon. Because they had plans to celebrate Easter with his family that afternoon. Now, after that last transaction at 7.42 a.m., a few more people

actually came in and out of the store. And the police knew this because some customers had left money on the counter and good faith for whatever they purchased. But finally though, somebody realized that the clerk hadn't stepped outside for just a second. She was gone. She was nowhere to be found. Now as this person is realizing this just by happenstance, a sheriff's patrol car was passing by, it was right around 8.15 am, and somebody at the store kind of motioned him to come into the parking lot. This person told the cop that the DNW seemed open, but there was nobody around, and the situation just seemed off.

So the cop steps inside and he notes that there's cash on the counter, there's cash in the register, the register's still there. There were signs that somebody had been working that morning because behind the counter sat Heidi's jacket, her purse, and her keys, and like I said, her car was parked right out front. Yeah. Now, her family was called straight away. And when her cousin Melissa,

who everybody called Missy, found out that Heidi was missing, she ran home right away and she started posting her photo all over missing posters that she just immediately started hanging up around town. Just got to work straight away. Now the poster had a photo of Heidi

from her sister Lisa's wedding and her description. A white female, 5' 511 about 145 pounds, light brown blonde hair that she wore very long and curly and blue hazel eyes. The day that she was missing, she was wearing jeans with a gray sweatshirt that had a plaid logo across the front of it and white sneakers. They also said that she would either be wearing glasses or contact lenses and she had pierced ears. And when we share a photo of her on Instagram and white sneakers. They also said that she would either be wearing glasses or contact lenses and she had pierced ears. And when we share a photo of her on Instagram and socials, I will also share the progress photos that have been done over the years. Yeah.

It was clear though to the police that Heidi was not a runaway. Like this whole situation, like all of her stuff was still at the... Yeah, it doesn't make sense. She has her own car, it's still here. Yeah, it doesn't add up. She could just leave in that car. Very much. And she would have had, like if she was gonna run away. Yeah. But they were like, no, she was taken

from the store against her while it's clear as day. It's just a matter of figuring out who would have wanted to hurt her or abduct her and why. Now, the county where she lived was one of those places where everybody knew everybody and every last detail of each other, but there were some things among the community, excuse me, that just remained unspoken. It gave off the vibe where people would leave their doors open

because nothing bad happened there unless you are part of the drug scene. Oh, the drug scene in this area was not something that you wanted to become involved with, because there were plenty of people using and selling drugs, specifically in this area it was marijuana and cocaine at the time, but that specific community obviously wanted people to keep their noses out of it all. And if they weren't going to, then things could get violent very quickly. That's really scary. And shortly before Heidi's disappearance, she had told her boyfriend that there was a man who appeared to be on Coke, excuse me, cocaine,

who lived near the DNW, who was coming in the shop regularly and freaking her out. Okay. And it was something of note to the investigators as they started working. So the investigation of Heidi's disappearance was interesting. Oh no. Oh, no. Yeah.

And you'll see why I feel that way. I never want to hear that. Yeah, you're going to see why I feel that way definitely in this episode, but in part two, because by the way, this is going to be two parts, you're going to be screaming in the car or in the shower or in your house while you're cleaning. Or right next to you. Oh, yes. You'll be screaming right here.

Good. You particularly can scream right here. So first things first, roadblocks were not put up until the day after Heidi went missing. Good. That's like, that's really helpful. That's like, yeah. Using an umbrella the day after it, yes. That's literally what that is. Like, what had an entire day to leave. Exactly. And she went missing in the morning. Yeah. Throw them up. That's the thing. The police had started working on this search. Like, throw them up. That's the thing, the police had started working on this search, like an hour and a half

after the last purchase had been made that morning. But for some reason, didn't think to put roadblocks up until one full day later. That doesn't make sense. Any sense. Like a full day later, they're like, oh, you know what? That's a good idea. You know what would have helped yesterday?

Throwing up roadblocks. Let's try it today. Well, and the thing that sucks in, I hate to say this, but if roadblocks had been put up on day one, I wholeheartedly think she could have been found. That's infuriating. Because she, however, took her, obviously put her in a car and drove her somewhere.

Yeah. Why would you not put them up? Like what? That's infuriating. And at that point, it's even more infuriating that Amber Alerts weren't even a thing yet. Oh, yeah. And I, in, it's even more infuriating that Amber Alerts weren't even a thing yet. Oh yeah. And in my mind, just because they've been around

literally since I was born, I'm like, why didn't they put an Amber Alert out? I know. We take for granted that these things have been around for most of our lives, of all of your life. So it's like, things even like 9-1-1. Yeah. But you forget that that wasn't always around.

Yeah. And it actually wasn't around, you know, in the very near past It was when it came. Yeah, it hasn't been around that long really, which is crazy to think about. Yeah Like we were just saying you just feel like it's always been around exactly. So yeah, roadblocks have been around for a while And it's a knowledge of putting them up is pretty useful, but there's that now in addition to that bullshit I read this book called Scrapped about the disappearance and the investigation, and the author's Lisa Peabulls and John O'Brien noted

that usually in the state of New York, if there's a big case like this, the state police would take over the investigation because the local police, especially in this community, they didn't have a ton of experience with cases like this. People just didn't go missing in this town. Like, people were not murdered that often in this town. Yeah.

But the New York State Police were called off early in Heidi's investigation because of two cops that had beef with one another. Oh my God. The local sheriff, Charles Nellis, I believe is how you say it, refused to let Jack Doyle, who was the head of the state police, have any part of the investigation, simply because they didn't like each other,

and there was some kind of like unspoken competition between the two of them. So it's just two tiny men swinging their dicks around at each other? Literally. With a missing girl. That's the thing. It's like, yeah.

Let your ego get in the way of finding an 18 year old girl on Easter morning, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Definitely. Yeah, I'm rooting for you. Now, Mario Cu 18 year old girl on Easter morning, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Definitely. Yeah, I'm rooting for you. Now, Mario Cuomo, who was actually governor of New York at the time, called in the National Guard himself to see if they could locate Heidi,

because he was like, what the fuck are you guys doing there? He seems like somebody should do something. But try as they might, they just kept coming up with dead ends. They were searching all over the place, and of course in spots that the average person wouldn't be able to handle. They would pick up like anything they found, any article of clothing, soda cans, anything, hoping to get DNA. They filled up more than 12 bags by the time the search was called off, and not a single item in any bag could be traced back to Hyde's.

She's what happened. So Hyde's family was not pleased to say the least in the beginning of this. And they actually ended up coming up with their own reward in the hopes that the $20,000 might motivate somebody to come forward. They also featured Heidi's case on America's most wanted, and they were still coming up with nothing. So that was when they made the decision

to call in the help of the FBI. So there was a man called Clint Van Zant who actually worked at Quantico. Oh wow. And he was specially trained in analyzing serial killers and sexual predators. He actually was involved in two pretty high profile cases, Ted Kaczynski, the Unibomber, and Tim McVeigh.

Whoa. He predicted their characteristics pretty much down to a T. Geez. So in his professional opinion, whoever had kidnapped Heidi would most likely try to insert themselves into the investigation somehow. Whether that would be a tip or calling back over and over again to follow up on that tip,

maybe join a search party. They would just wanna feel a sense of closeness to the aftermath of what they'd cause. Which how fucked up is that? How fucked up is that? And I feel like that happens a lot. Yeah. Because we've covered like a bunch of cases I feel like where the person responsible was

in the search party. Yeah, because if you think about it, like shitty people, all they want is attention. Yeah. That's all they want. Like they want attention, they want to feel powerful, usually because they don't have any power in their own lives. So they try to create it outside by like, just making misery. So they'll do things to get attention on themselves,

even if it's negative, because it gives them some sense of like eye matter. Right. And that's what these people do. It's like they do these horrible things with no regard for human life that they destroy. And then they insert themselves into the investigation so that they can hear one, thank you for a tip or like, and just sit there and be like, I caused this. Yep. And now I get to be a part of it. It's so fucked up.

It is. And like, especially if they're involved in the search, it's like, you're looking at these desperate family numbers. And for them, they're getting off on that. Yeah, because they know miserable people like to create other miserable people. And that's how you heard the phrase, misery loves companies. It's so true. And it's true in like every aspect of life.

Miseryl people on every level be it murders or like, you know, trolls on the internet. Yep. No matter what kind of level they're at, all they want is to create misery that they can feel like they've created it because they don't feel alone themselves. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And it's so fucked up. Are you an FBI profiler? Yes. Yes, I forgot to tell you. I've said too much. We're actually four years into this. And Olin is like, I actually have a third job, guys.

Surprise. Well, the FBI profiler, Vera Van Zant, also said that if there was any kind of sexual motive in this crime, then the person responsible would potentially record their crimes in some kind of writings or drawings or collect articles written on the crime, which is weird because we just watched the little things. Oh, yes.

And that happens there. There you go. Now if they had a connection to the victim that came up in the investigation, they would that they would likely be closely following. They would try to explain it away in the most logical way they could. Yeah, that's what makes sense.

Now I personally feel like all of these characteristics are embodied in somebody that we're gonna talk about in part two. So like I realized I recently, so like I recently realized I always say, keep that in your back pocket. Keep it, I'm in my back pocket. I was listening to an episode of more, but the other day, which I don't usually do, but I just wanted to hear this one. I was gonna say, wow. Well, I don't, because I don't like to hear my own voice.

No, me neither. That's like my own. Yeah, yeah, I like to hear yours too. But I realized I say that a lot. And I was kind of looking at over some of my, hey there, fellow podcast listener, it's Elena and Ash. And we're taking you back to the days before streaming services. Whoa. You know, when you would come home from high school and it was only a few hours until that TV show, everyone was watching was about to come on. Well, in 1999, that show was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In our podcast with Wondery,

the re-watcher Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we take it back to 1999. So get out your knee-high boots and paste that poster of Angel on the Wall. It's time to enter the Buffyverse. Some of you avid morbid listeners already know what we've gotten store. Join us. Join us, as we sway our way through Buffy's drama, action, and romance.

Episode by episode. Slacy. Follow the rewatcher, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn,arn, darn, darn, darn, darn,arn, darn, d When you run a business, time seems way more precious. Every misplaced moment feels like a missed opportunity, a lost chance to make your business better, or honestly, even just to step away and recharge your battery a little bit. Shipstation gives e-commerce sellers like you more time to do what they really love to do, unless what you really love is managing every single little detail of an order fulfillment, but I don't really see that being the case. Shipstation automates time intensive,

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liked to be in the limelight and really loved the attention that he was getting. Okay. And then she followed it up with letting them just know that he was not too intelligent. Okay. So I think she was just trying to say, take what he says with a grain of salt because I'm not so sure about it. And she exactly, she's like, you know, I'm not gonna call him anything. I'm not gonna say it.

Just take with this what you will. Yeah, I think she was really good at I'm compliment sandwiches, I feel. But the thing was, the police are fucking desperate for any information on this case. And they want to know more. So they're like, all right, we're gonna take what he says with a grain of salt,

but we might be calling him back. Yeah. But then another call came in and also noted something about a two-toned white van that was, quote unquote, driving erratically later in the day that Easter Sunday. And then a man who had been inside the DNW at the same time Richard was called in a tip of his own. He said that he saw Richard inside the store and he parked his car right in front of Richard's van. Now the man said he was pretty sure there was another person in Richard's

van because while Richard was in the store with him, the man said he saw the van move. Well, he was inside. So like somebody else must have moved it. Now, I don't know if that was true, then was Richard one of the men that Chris Bevins had seen at the store, Bevins, excuse me, and perhaps the other man was somebody he knew and someone who joined in on an argument that he was having with Heidi for one reason or another. So to be sure, the police are going to have to call Chris Bevins once again. Now they call him again, it's about 10 days after his original tip, and they decide to call him up and have him come down to the station to chat. Now in the days leading up to that, the police were asking around town specifically now about

Richard Tivina, he's become a suspect, and any other men that he might be connected to. And in their questioning, they learned that Richard had a brother named Gary, and they also knew that Gary had actually met Heidi on probably more than one occasion, they were sure. There was at least one occasion. They seemed to have met some time in early 94 at a bar where Brett, her boyfriend, Brett's brother worked as the bar manager.

Okay. Now rumor had it that Gary had some kind of crush on Heidi and that he made her uncomfortable because he told her boyfriend that he found her attractive. So there was some kind of weirdness going on there. Which also, why would you do that? Yeah, if you... But I feel like sometimes dudes do that

where they're like, this is my girlfriend and then their friend is like, wow, she's so hot, bro. Like that's so weird. And you're like, I'm not a piece of meat. Like that's so, I don't know. That's just weird to me. Yeah, it is. Like to go out of your way to be like, hey, I find your girlfriend attractive.

Yeah. Okay. It's weird. But like you can't do anything about it. Yeah, like I've been in that situation before. And just been like, okay. And you feel like I'm sure Heidi just felt icky. Yeah.

I mean, and then I guess I can devil that, but get this a little bit, because the more I thought about it, I'm like, well, you know, if I meet my friends new significant other, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, like whatever. And I'm like, I can be like, well, like what? Like, he's so handsome. He's so handsome. Like, she's so gorgeous.

Like, you know, like, I can fit it in. You know what it is? That way of me not being like, I'm attracted to them. It's just like, hey, they're like just, they're just pretty or they're just really a good-looking person. It all comes down to what Gary actually said in his tone when he said it and unfortunately, none of us were there. I was just going to say, and that's exactly what it is. So I think you can look at it both ways. You totally can. My initial reaction was like, what the fuck

Gary? Well, so is everybody else's. But then I'm like, okay, I guess if it was just like, wow, she's so pretty. Right. But it was like, it was noted that it made her uncomfortable. And that is the golden thing here is it made her uncomfortable. And that's what matters here. Exactly. So they find this information out and they're like,

okay, so maybe it was Gary that was with Rich and maybe those were the two men who were arguing with the girl that Chris saw Heidi Rich Gary is that the scenario? So they were like, let's call Chris and see if he remembers anything about the men that fit Gary or Richard and this is the part in the investigation where you're gonna want to punch things. Cool, I love what that happens. Yeah, because for some reason, the first part of their interview with Chris was not recorded.

Why? Why? Why does that happen? I don't know why that happens, but we know why. We know why. You're gonna get caught. It's the same thing.

We referenced West Memphis 3 case all the time, but it has so many little pieces that fit into other cases. So well, like Jesse Muskely, like they didn't start recording his until they made sure that they got him to understand the story they wanted him to tell and understand what, and he didn't even tell it right then.

Just putting that out there. Yeah, you actually just summed up what might be happening in the next like three paragraphs. That seems to be why we get a, oops, we didn't start recording for three hours. And it's like, oh, because you were making sure that you could figure out how to make them confess. Exactly.

Yeah. So first hour not recorded. No. Once they were done there, they first had him at the central square PD. Once they were done with him there, they went to the new sheriff's headquarters and a recorded statement was taken this time.

Oh, okay. Now, Biven said something about being low on gas, but being worried about pulling into the DNW because he thought he saw some kind of domestic dispute unfolding. Now, I just want to say, he's gathering all of the following information as he's driving by. Okay. That's all I'm going to say.

Yeah. So he said that he saw one guy and as they were arguing, he said, one of the guys held the girl behind in a bear hug. That's how that's how he described it. He had her in a bear hug from behind. And he said, she seemed to be hysterical and struggling. Oh, but in his opinion, it just seemed like she was going through something and she was mad at one of these men.

And Bivens, just driving by in his car, said, I just thought maybe one of them was her boyfriend and that they were breaking up or something and she was hysterical about it. That's how they see us, guys. That's how they see us. Okay. Okay.

That full well could have been hidey Allen being abducted. And this motherfucker chalked it up too. She's sad because it's a boyfriend speaking up here. And also, okay, even if that was the case, why would you just ignore the fact that now he can physically assault her? Because she's upset. Right.

Like we're just, a man has his hands on the physically upset woman. It doesn't matter what the fuck is going on. No. This man is physically assaulting a woman who is hysterical and trying to get away from him. Yeah. Even if you don't want to involve,

which I get, like you don't want to. Call someone. Like maybe you don't want to escalate the situation or something. You pull over and you call police. That's the thing. It's fine that you don't wanna go over there, to be honest with you, I wouldn't wanna go over there.

Cause you don't know what's going on, you don't wanna ask people out. You don't wanna ask anything, you don't wanna like, he might have a gun, you never know. But you call someone. You pull over and you call the police. I would be like, I don't know what's going on, but it looks like she's in trouble.

There's a domestic dispute over that. I'll be like, you gotta get here right now. And also, it's just a lot to chalk up for a situation involving three people you literally don't know. That's my favorite part of the story. You don't know these people. Well, I was driving by and I saw this quick scene. I now know all of their backstories.

I know their relationships. I know that she is a hysterical woman. That's just who she is. And that poor man is just trying to, he's just trying to control her. Because she's gonna go crazy. It's like you literally don't know those people. Like, you don't know those people.

Which, and how do you know she knows those men? Like, she's hysterical and trying to get away from one of them. That's the thing. I'm like, I kind of believe you're a girlfriend when she said you just like to be in the limelight. Yeah, because that's a wild narrative to pull from driving by something. And also, don't assume it just makes an ass out of you and you.

Yeah, not me. It's true. It's stupid. So he said there were other cars at the pumps. But he couldn't describe any of them other than the van that he thought along to these two men, which was also at the pumps. And at this point in the story, he said that the three people were now walking toward it. So when asked to describe the van, he said that it was either a Dodger Chevy, and that it was between 1979 and 1988 for the year make. And he said there was a stripe going down the middle, that was dark blue. Okay.

Now, Richard did have a van that was too toned with a stripe down the middle, but it was a black stripe. I mean dark blue, dark blue and black. And that's an easy one to fuck up. It is. I will give him that. Also, I always think of like the years when they're like, when they're like,

it's a car between this year and this year. I don't have no fucking idea. I'd be like, I don't know, it's a car that is between the invention of the automobile and now. You could also, like, that would be my ears that I'd be able, I'd be like, it was invented. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I could tell you it's a Toyota,

I don't know what Toyota. Yeah, I could barely tell you that. I'd be like, it's a car with four wheels. Drew had a Toyota for like years and I could not remember if it was a Camry or a Corolla and it was parked in our driveway every day. Yeah I'd be horrible at that so I'm always astounded when people can like actually close in on years. It was a car on four wheels.

Yeah it was within the last hundred years I think. It had a horn I think. Yeah. There was no horse and buggy so it was a car. Yeah so so pretty good on the car. Pretty good discussion. Yeah because of that black and blue thing, I think you could easily. Totally. I knew you would play double advocate there and I knew I wouldn't be able to argue with you. Yeah.

Now he then went on to describe the men that the girl was with. So one man was described as being about 10 feet away from the other man who was following behind holding the woman. So we have one guy ahead about 10 feet and then these two people, guy and a girl, guys holding on to girl following behind. Totally normal. Yeah, totally normal. Definitely. So the man in the front ahead of everybody else, Chris said he's probably about 5'11. The other guy,

he said probably around 6'2 because he's taller than the girl who was probably about 5'11. Heide was 5'11. He said the solo guy in the front was older and hunched over. He said both men were white, but he didn't see their faces. Now, one of these statements that he made was handwritten and the other one was typed. But interestingly enough, the handwritten version has a lot of contradictions when compared to the typed version and even with the spoken version.

Ah, the handwritten statement makes the solo guy who Chris described as 5'11, 5'6". So we're shrinking him 5 hole inches. I was gonna say, like- We're shrinking this man's almost half a foot. Yeah. Now, some people wonder if that guy has a different description because the deputies may be chorus Chris into making the guy in the front description match Richard Tibido. Because Richard Tibido was right around 5.5.

Oh, okay. So there's a big difference. Let's call it 5.6 because how would he get it on the nose? 5.5, that works. Now the officer who typed up the handwritten took quite a few liberties to the story or just omitted things completely. He did not write down the height of the man who was holding the woman. Now remember Chris had originally said this man was probably around six two because he was taller than the girl who was quite tall herself, five,

eleven. The officer did write down that the girl was 5'11, but nothing about the man's height who was holding her. Not a specific number, not a few shorter, not a few as taller. These are all like basic things that you write down in a state like this is wild. And you need to have a height written down for one. And he gave you one.

And he gave you one, so write it down. Yeah. And you need to write down the one he actually fucking told you, it's not like fill, it's not mad lips. No. So with all the height stuff out of the way, the officer decided to take one more liberty to say that the van was parked near the pumps rather than at the pumps like Chris had said it was. Later on down the road, there were also posters with Heidi's information on them, but they seemed to have decided to shrink her actual height and advertise that she was 5'9", rather than 5'11".

What? Could that be because the second man that they wanted to fit this narrative was Gary. Gary would still be taller than her if she was 5'9". Not if she was 5'9 Not if she was five. Wow. This is shady. Now back to where we started this, because it's going to get a whole lot shadier done at the station, baby, with Richard Tibido and his girlfriend Teresa being brought in for questioning. That's where we started. So once the couple arrives at the station,

they are immediately separated. And the cops who are talking to Richard want to go over his story with them one more time. He went through the whole entire thing again woke up Easter morning. I smoked Teresa's last cigarette. She would have been pissed, hopped in my van, parked along the front of the DNW. Wonder why they changed that it was at the at the pumps. Yeah, look at that. Parked in the front of the DNW. Oh yeah. Grabbed his ciggy's, wished tidy a good one.

Now, then he made his way back home, won about Easter with his family, but then he called that tip in. And I think the cops were very stuck on the profile that Van Zand had come up with, saying whoever was responsible would likely insert themselves into the investigation. And I think they were trying to apply that to Richard Tibido, because he called later that Easter to let them know that he had been one of the last people at the DNW that morning. Was that his way of inserting himself

into the investigation? I could totally see that. I will hand that right over. 100%. But then if you look at it from the other side of things and he hadn't called in to tell them he was there that morning, and then they found out that he was the person

who made the last transaction, that would also look very shady. Yeah, there's no winning. You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. And you would, I know that that is true that like people like we just said, people do love to do that. They love to insert themselves. That is a huge thing that a lot of criminals do. And remember he showed up at the search. Exactly. But on the same token it's like, but we also want people to come forward and say tips when they have them right.

And not feel like they can't because they're gonna be looked at like they are just trying to insert themselves in. So it's like, that's a slippery slope kind of look at things to take by the investigators. Because it's like, well, you want people to call in tips.

They're look at the evidence. Where would you be in the investigation without his fucking tip? Yeah, so like, I get why they need to, like, I get that why that's like, well, you want people to call in tips. They're interested. And where would you be in the investigation without his fucking tip? Yeah. So like, I get why they need to, like, I get that why that's like floating around in their head a little bit. I get that.

But like to like really nail him for that, it would not be great. So far, exactly. Now, I could see maybe where they thought he was going above and beyond because apparently he put a big sign up on his house that said praying for hideidea's safer term. And he also had posted her missing person's fire to the back of his van like in the back

window. Okay. Which is also helping the investigation and you want people to do things like that. But you can look at it from Chris Van Zanz, or Clint Van Zanz, point of view is he just like that is a little over the top. And that's that's driving around with it on your van and knowing that people are thinking you're helping when you know that you are part of it.

Absolutely. Putting it on your house, knowing that, like, I get that. I totally get it. But then I also see it as he was one of the last people to see her and maybe he feels some kind of weird connection or like, survivors guilty. Yeah, like he's just like, man, if I had seen,

if I was there at a different time, maybe I could have stopped something or maybe these people would have left because I would have been there. Right, so I can 100% see both sides so far of why they would think certain things. Me too. And why it's not awesome to think so.

Same here, same here. And I will say to this, like going to play devil's advocate again, like I see why they're why they're thinking that he's inserting himself and all that and like the signs weird. But at the same time, this is a super small community. In an 18 year old girl just went missing. Tons of people are putting up signs for this girl and leaving signs in the back of their car with her information. So yeah, it seems like it's like kind of a tight knit community.

It is. Yeah. So,, it seems like it's like kind of a tight-knit community. It is. Yeah. So I don't know. Maybe it was a small town die in him, but as far as the police were concerned, and now given Biven's array of statements, they wanted to get access to that van and I get that thoroughly investigated,

which I get that 100%. Like clear it. Rule them out. And you'll assess back to move them out. I've always said, overdo it. Yeah. Like to be proven wrong. Like nobody's going. And I have always said, over do it. Yeah. Like to be proven wrong. Like nobody's gonna get mad at you

for going above and beyond. Absolutely, because that's the thing. You have your suspects. Your whole job is to rule them out until you have the primo suspect. Exactly. But unfortunately, he seemed to be the only suspect getting investigated.

Uh-oh. So they want to see if there's any kind of DNA in that van that could place hidey there They hoping that it's going to be an open and shut case. Yeah, but first they had a couple more mind games that they wanted to play So in the room with Richard they said guess what? Teresa's in the other room singing like a canary. She's telling us everything. We know all about that morning Richard and Richard's sitting there like I don't know what the fuck she's telling you, because what I've told you is the truth.

I am not involved. In the next room, Teresa was actually not saying anything about Richard at all. In fact, the officers in that room were trying to break her down so that she would, but she just wasn't budging. And things finally got to the point where they threatened to take her children away if she didn't tell them the truth

and she fucking lost it on the map. She was like, you need to arrest me with something or let me out of here because I've told you everything I know and you're not bringing my kids to the show. Yeah, you're not taking my kids. I didn't do anything now. And she said, I've told you everything I know.

Like I was with him. He went to get the cigarettes. He came home, we went to Easter. You came out to Easter, took his statement. I don't know what else to tell you. Yeah, and it's like if that was it, I can't, again, like you can't force me to make shit up. No, I'm narrative.

So Richard and Teresa, they were let go that night. But not before the cops gained access to that van. Totally, they needed it. Yeah. Richard also took two polygraph tests. Confusing whether or not he passed them. Some sources say yes, other sources say no. Is there about as useful as a hot dog? Exactly.

So I'm not going to focus on it. They did take blood samples, they took hair samples, and they took pubic samples from him. There you go. And overall, the tibidos have been kept at that station that day for more than eight hours. Damn. Now, there was no blood found in Richard's van. None of the hair samples, fingerprints samples, or any sample taken from the van matched anything that belonged to Heidi, and like nothing proved that she was in that van.

They had her fingerprints in the system already, which is something we're going to get into probably in part two. And they went through some of her belongings so that they could use different things to compare to the samples, nothing matched. There was zero indication she'd ever been there. But it was a small town and people were starting to catch on to what was going on and people were starting to talk. Now people who had already told the police, like, no, I don't know anything, were coming

forward with information now. They said they either recently remembered or were too nervous to say before. Which does happen. Yeah. It does happen. Of course. Many of those people, though, that had been spoken to in the past, were specifically asked if they had seen Richards Van parked in front of his brother Gary's house the day that

Heidi went missing, and all of them said they had not. Yeah, it's like if you have, if you have, if you haven't, it's not some band. But now people were totally changing their stories. Some were saying the van was parked there all night. Others were saying that it was parked late into the night on Easter. And people had other really crazy stories regarding the Tibido brothers. One witness called in a tip saying to the police that he saw Gary and Richard carrying

an eight to 10 foot long object in the woods. He said whatever it was was wrapped in clear plastic and it had the ends tied off with rope. What? Now, according to him, this was the morning of April 6th and it happened in Polarmo, New York. So the police follow up on this tip. They check this area of the woods,

they expand a little bit, just try it because they're not finding anything where he says it's gonna be. They move out a little bit further, they come up with nothing. No such object was found in the woods. What? But they still, the police, the investigators,

they have a very strong feeling about Richard and Gary. So they call Chris back in town, and one time again, oh my god, sorry. They call Chris back in town in one time again. Oh my god, sorry. They call Chris back into the station one last time. And by this point, Chris has seen this van three different times and said, Yup, it's the right style of van, but it's not the same color as the one I saw that morning. Okay. He is, he has said this multiple times, but this third time seeing it, he changed his mind and said, I'm like 80% sure that maybe, yeah, it's the right fan.

But I'm like 80% sure. Because I'm sure after a few times of it, you're like, I'm questioning your saying. You want it at this point because I think I might be wrong. Like at that point, like you said, you're being like, maybe I am wrong, maybe that isn't the bad. Right. I imagine that would happen, of course. And then after a little bit of coaching,

which you can read this full transcript in that book, Scrapped, I definitely think you guys should go read it and we'll link it in the show notes. You read this coaching that goes on, and then at the end of it, Chris says, that's the van. Ooh, yeah. Okay.

Now, at this time, there were four other suspects in this case. But Chris Biven's story, alongside the sudden influx of tips, putting Gary and his brother Richard at the scene sealed the deal for the investigation. And on May 25th, 1994, both Richard and Gary were arrested. Oh, damn. And Gary at this point didn't even know he was a suspect. Totally shit. Like, they had come and talked to him a few times this point didn't even know he was a suspect. Totally shit.

Like they had Kalman talked to him a few times, but he was like, he gave them DNA, he gave them whatever they needed, and nothing matched. So he was like, I wasn't there. Like me and he said, him and his girlfriend were sleeping that Easter morning,

and they woke up when Richard called them and said like, did you see the news about the DNW? Oh. But it was just the two of them in the house, so they didn't have anybody to set up that. So that's what they got. So one morning, May 25th, he wakes up and there's a SWAT team surrounding his house.

Oh, arresting him. But they weren't arresting Gary on kidnapping charges. Richard was arrested on kidnapping charges, but Gary was arrested because he and his girlfriend Sharon had failed to show up in court in Massachusetts on an unrelated drug charge. Oh. The investigators wanted him behind bars while they made their case against him.

Yeah, of course. That's all it is. Yeah, that's an easy thing to do. Yeah. So, neither brother knew that the other had been arrested until days later and they see each other in the wreck yard. What? And as soon as Richard heard what they were holding Gary on,

he's like, I'm here on kidnapping charges. Like, why the hell are you here? And Gary's like, I'm here on like some drug charge from like years ago, like I didn't show up in court. And Richard is like, I know exactly what they're trying to do. They're trying to pin this on me. And now they have you as an accomplice. Wow.

But as they're standing there chatting with each other, guards come over and separate them. They get separated. Oh shit. And then Gary and Sharon get extra-dited back to Massachusetts. And then you're like, you could see both sides of that one. You have to separate them. You would have to separate them so they can't get a story straight

to tell both shit to the investigators. Oh, like there's so many, like I get it. I get it on boats. I like, I can see how this is like a railroad in case right now. And also I get it why it's a pretty good case right now. Yeah. The only, I think the only thing that doesn't make it like a great case is that they have literally no data.

Well, I was just gonna say the fact that there's no physical evidence. Nothing. And also it's like, do you think these two guys are sophisticated enough that they would be not a trace in that man, nothing, like not a trace? Right, come on, exactly. Like a fingerprint, a hair, something.

And they tried to say like, well, they cleaned it out. If you look at in the thing that sucks is, and if you read the book, you'll find out Richard did take his car to a car wash the next day, but because when they search your shit, they don't put it back nicely. And they leave the fingerprint dust and everything all over the place,

but it looks shady as fuck to go to the car wash the next day. Of course it does. But he was like, my van's a mess, I got to clean it up. So it's like, you could devil's advocate the shit out of this and you really could. You get both ways. It's crazy. So Gary and Sharon get exterdated back to Massachusetts.

Richard is able to make it out on bail because he actually did. I think he did landscaping work for this woman like he had worked for her before. And she was like, there's no way he's involved in this. Oh wow. And she posted his $15,000 bail. Holy shit. I don't know who I love enough to do that for. Um, really?

Well, I'd hope you'd never be in jail. You never know what if something happens and I'd possibly use. There you go. But I'm saying that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a loyal customer right there. Yeah, like we don't see that happen a lot. No, but she said she's like, I don't see a world in which she's responsible for this. Like I know him, I don't see it. That's also very impressive. It is.

And other people in town also came to his defense too, saying there was no way that Richard was the person who was behind all of this. His friends actually put a sign in his yard that said, dick didn't do anything. Oh my God. I know. Wow.

Now Gary, on the other hand, couldn't post-baile. Gary will get into it in part two. Gary's a bit of a character. I had a feeling. Gary has a past. I don't know Gary, but like, I just got vibes from even you just saying Gary that I was like, I feel like Gary's.

He's got a past. Gary's done some stuff. He has. He absolutely has. Now, and again, there are people in this town that absolutely believe that these two are the ones responsible, and I'm not saying either way, I haven't made up my mind.

Oh, okay. So Gary, on the other hand, he couldn't post bail, and as soon as he and Sharon were taken into custody, they separated them, obviously, and tried to do the same thing to Sharon that they'd previously done to Richard's girlfriend, Teresa. Okay. They said, we know Gary's involved. You tell us everything. We know he kidnapped Heidi, and if you tell us everything, they said, we will move you

anywhere in the United States that you want wanna go, and you will be placed in the witness protection program. Holy shit. And she said, that's great. I have nothing to tell you. Wow. She said, we were home sleeping that day. We woke up when Richard called to tell us

that something was going down at the DNW. That's that. Yeah. And they kept pushing. They were like, listen, anywhere you wanna go, Sharon, anywhere you wanna go. She's like, I don't wanna go anywhere. She doesn't wanna go anywhere. Nothing's that. Yeah. And they kept pushing. They were like, listen, like anywhere you want to go, share in anywhere you want to go. She's like, I don't want to go anywhere. She doesn't want to go nothing. She refused. She said Gary had no involvement and she and Gary both maintained their

alibi forever. They never broke on that story. Never. Wow. So when they were in Massachusetts in in custody, the police were searching their home on numerous occasions, trying to find any kind of solid evidence to prove Gary's involvement. They were taking boxes and boxes filled with all kinds of things. But as they tested and tested, nothing could be linked back to Heidi at all. At that time, Gary actually hadn't been announced as the second suspect yet, but people knew why Richard had been arrested, and they could add two and two together pretty easily.

And people started talking being like, Gary's involved. We know some things going on. Now while they were incarcerated, the Syracuse Harold Journal actually posted a story pointing out how weak the evidence was against Dick. Yeah, because no matter what, even if you're like, we feel like he's involved,

you gotta have something, man. You have to have something. And it really is, again, West Memphis Three-ish because it's like, they have zero physical evidence, but they're just like, yep, you did it. You did it. We can't tell you to the scene at all. Exactly, you did it because you, like, I guess for Richard, it just sucks

that you were the last person that saw her that day. Yeah, that really does. So, but they post, oh my god, they post at that point nobody was posting anything. No. They were writing articles. So they put this article out, that's how weak the evidence is. And a few newspapers in town actually later on throughout the investigation would do interviews with both brothers.

And people were starting to get pissed about it because they're like, they are suspects in murder cases. Like why are you giving them the time of day? Yeah. And the newspapers were like, usually we don't get to do this because the lawyers will tell them not to talk to any press. But in this case, their lawyers are telling them do all the press you can.

Yeah, because there's nothing holding there. You gotta clear your name, there's nothing holding you. But then it's also like if they were the ones involved, then like, holy shit. What are you doing, right? But like how it's this is so fucked. But one journalist was allegedly threatened by the police for putting out these articles that were kind of giving Richard and Gary like the time of day. Well, alleged, alleged. Now, some luck would come to the investigation when a furnace in the back of Gary's home was checked. And when two of his former cellmates would come forward and tell the police they had some serious information.

So while the police were taking bags and bags out of Gary's home, they realized that he had a furnace in his backyard and he kind of used it like as a burn pit. Now obviously they want to look inside and test anything that might be lingering. So they did to look inside and test anything that might be lingering. So they did find bones inside. Oh, they find bones inside. They did find bones, you say. They did find bones in his furnace. Human bones?

So they weren't quite sure if these were human remains or if they were animal remains. So they call it forensic anthropologist to test them. Now the forensic anthropologist found that most of the bones were chicken bones, but there were a few that could not be definitively decided upon. He said it was possible that they could be human, but he said these undetermined bones are consistent

in color and appearance with the other bones that we found, meaning they're most likely chicken bones, but I can't rule out that they could be human bones. Yeah, like you can't say definitively one way or another. Which sucks, because... Does he have human remains in his furnace? Or does he have chicken bones? Fawc.

So, yeah. Oh, that's scary. So, that's massive. And that was that on that. He just said there's no way to definitively decide. He just said, most likely chicken bones, but I can't rule it out. Also, maybe this is just me. Why do you have chicken bones in your furnace?

I mean, like what is the reasoning for that? Chicken bones in your furnace? They just throw them out. I don't really know. I'm just like, I'm like, why were you burning chicken bones? I'm a vegetarian, so I wouldn't know. In case you guys didn't hear.

No, I don't know. I'm just like, why would you even have chicken bones in your furnace? I hate to be this gross, but would you cook a chicken in your furnace? No, not a furnace, I would think. Unless I'm thinking of a different type of furnace, I have no idea.

This is very strange. Oh, maybe it's all very strange. Yeah, dude, I don't really know. So no matter what, that's strange. It's weird. Yeah, that's a weird shit. My eyebrow is quirked. They tried to quirk mine, but I have Botox.

To help them out. Wow. So it didn't matter. This was huge for the investigation. And it would later help the prosecution build their case against Gary, of course. And then what put the final cherry on top for these investigators and the prosecutors was when two inmates, Robert Baldassaro, excuse me, and James McDonald, come forward. And they say that Gary was definitely involved in Heidi Allen's disappearance. In worse, he had murdered her. They said, Gary described some kind of drug deal that he and Heidi had been involved in.

The story changed a couple of times. At one point, they said Heidi had screwed Gary over. And then in another version, Gary had screwed Heidi over, and then she threatened him. So he and his brother abducted her from the store and killed her by hitting her over the head with a shovel. Okay. Now, that's awful. Absolutely bonkers.

Horrible. And the media goes bonkers and they release a story saying these two men come forward with details that only the kidnappers would know. But that's really not the case. No. Because we don't know what the kidnappers would know because we don't really have the case. No. Because we don't know what the kidnappers would know because we don't really have a lot in this investigation.

I was gonna say, yeah, like what really information would they have? Right. We haven't all heard. But they post that story. And then the prosecutors are finally comfortable going forward with a formal arrest of Gary Tidlin. Wow.

So he gets arrested. I believe it was like three months after he had been arrested on the kidnapping charges. It was August that he got arrested for kidnapping. I mean, those bones are not, that's not great. Doesn't look good. That is not great for you, man. No, it's definitely not. No. I mean, you're right. I need to know why. It's just great. Guys, email us if you have like a furnace in your backyard that you use as a burn pit, or if you have any kind of furnace, and why you would have chicken bones in there.

Yeah, maybe I'm just not thinking it's true, because I don't have a burn pit or anything like that. I just don't understand why that would happen, but I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Unless I don't, if you're a farmer and you are disposing of the rest of the chicken carcass, I don't know.

Yeah, and it's like, okay, I guess you would burn it, I suppose. Would you? I don't know. I'm not a farmer. I honestly have no idea. I don't know. That's why I'm just more like, what the fuck?

It doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, the fact that there's bones that they could, and I know that it's one of those things where it's like, we can't definitively say either way. So it makes me like, yeah. Scary, but like, I don't know. I it makes me like, yeah, scary. But like, I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. And again, our screen is so scary. Can't definitively say, but most likely, chicken bones. Well, that's the thing. And I think that's the thing that we all need to concentrate on. Is they're leaning more towards it being a chicken bone, but there's something that's holding them back

from just conclusively saying that. Exactly. It's one of those things like prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Right. Because if I were on the jury and they said, you know, these bones were found, I'd be like, holy shit. Yeah.

But then if they said, you know, they, most of them are consistent with chicken bones. Like if they sat there and said 80% of them are chicken bones, 20 year undetermined, but consistent. Your mind would go, those are chicken bones, why would they be human bones? Exactly, like why would those 20% be chicken bones? Yeah, exactly. But like, it could happen.

It could happen, but again, that's a reasonable doubt, right? Exactly. It's hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. It is. It really is. Absolutely. But what was this about Heidi Allen being involved in a drug deal? Yeah, I told you all about Heidi Allen in the beginning of this and not once did she sound like the kind of girl

who would be involved in any kind of drug deal. No, that's when you started saying that my mind was like, what? You're like, what was that? Oh, we're trying to put her there. What? And most people were confused and shocked when they heard about this. They were like, that doesn't make sense. Like, we know Heidi. This is a small town. Yeah. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. But it turns out that the local police have been using Heidi

as an informant since she was 15 years old. What the fuck? And that is where we're wrapping for part one. Oh my God. She was an informant. she was an informant. She was an informant. Well, that changes every single. She was forced to become an informant,

but that's all I'm gonna say right now. Whoa. And I will tell you exactly why in the beginning of part two. And then we are gonna go over some shady investigations where when you're involved in a court case, both sides, the defense and the prosecution have to show each other everything that they're gonna use in court, that didn't happen here.

Oh good, files were hidden, tucked to a list. There's gonna be a secret recorded conversation that somebody else may have been involved in this. There's another murder that we're gonna touch upon. recorded conversation that somebody else may have been involved in this. There's another murder that we're going to touch upon. There's a lot coming up in part two. Wow. That was wild.

I didn't see that coming at all, and now I'm even more worried for Heidi. Yeah. It's a lot. This case is absolutely heartbreaking. And the thing that stinks is maybe just as beserved, it might have been, but there is a reasonable doubt in the mind of a lot of people. There's questions. There's questions, and there just shouldn't be. Like I wish for everybody involved that there didn't have to be questions.

That's the thing. It's when this question's lingering at the end, then justice has not been served. Exactly. So that's not good. Yeah, so this is coming out, what is it? This is coming out on Wednesday and part two is gonna come out on Friday,

so we won't make you wait too long. Yeah, it's gonna be back to back. Yeah. Yeah, all right, cool. So we hope that you keep listening and we hope you got how we end up key. It's weird. But that's where you forget how to end your own show

that you've been doing for four years. That's actually a lot. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to morbid, early, and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing

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