Morbid - Episode 344: Jack the Ripper Part 2

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

Jack the Ripper part two brings us the absolutely horrifying murder of Annie Chapman. Annie’s story, much like the rest of the women who were killed, is incredibly devastating. She was struggling with sobriety when she landed on the shady streets in Spitalfields in the East end and was having a terrible time trying to find work to just get by. Robert Anderson, the head of the criminal investigations department was still on vacation, Sir Charles Warren’s ego stepped on the scene and they were not even one step closer to uncovering the culprits identity.Check out these great books on the case:Jack the Ripper and The Case For Scotland Yard's Prime Suspect by Robert HouseThe Complete Jack the Ripper by Donald RumbelowThe Five: The Untold Lives of the Women Killed by Jack the Ripper by Hallie RubenholdThe Hidden Lives of Jack the Ripper's Victims by Robert HumeThe Ripper Code by Thomas ToughillAlso check out these sites on the case:JackTheRipper.orgCasebook: Jack The RipperSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's ANGI, or download the app today. Hey, weirdos. I'm Alena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. Part 2 of Jack the Ripper. Yeah, Part 2 of a few parts, I'm gonna say. Yeah, we did say that I think we told you it was gonna be four, maybe we said that.

Like, actually, I think I said it was probably gonna be four. Probably gonna be five. Might be five, but here's my thoughts, okay. We gave Albert Fish four parts, and this is Jack the Ripper. I feel like it deserves a little more. Yeah, well, there's more victims involved and there's like you had to set up London as the thing. Yeah. This you had some really like cool sides. Yeah. Not cool. They were actually like horrifying. But interesting to hear about.

You know, it's this case, the, it's one of those cases where the character, you know, not the character, where the setting is also like, almost like a character in the story. Exactly, like that's, this has a lot to it, a lot of like the police force at the time, a lot of like inner workings and what was going on with all that, and like, there's just so much going on, and there was so much, you know,

there was so many news reports about this. The media plays a big role in it. There was the letters that we haven't even gotten to yet because they haven't even been sent yet, the Ripper letters. He hasn't even been named Jack the Ripper yet. Like this is, there's so much that it's a saga. And it was when it was ongoing, you know?

It truly is. So we'll see. If I can wrap it up in four, I will try to do so, but not at the expense of giving all the information. That's how I feel. Okay. So here we are. So when we last left you a part one, Mary Ann Nichols or Polly, as she was known to

those who loved her, was found brutally mutilated and killed. Yeah. At this point too, the new head of the criminal investigation department of the Metropolitan Police, Robert Anderson, has been told by a doctor that he needs to take I said two weeks off. I actually double checked I was wrong.

It was two months he was told to take off. Oh wow. Yeah, he was told to take off two full months and go on holiday. Do not do work because you might die. You know, it's funny. I was thinking when you originally said it, I was like, wow, two weeks. I was just going to like bring him his life back. Yeah.

Just here it is. I was like, where do they think he's going? Yeah, no, he's going for two months. He told him you were, and I guess I did read in a couple of sources. That's the doctor actually said, after those two months, I will happily write you another month on top of that, like another note saying you need another month. Damn.

But it was not at a great time because this happened as soon as the murder started. Yeah. And he had just got the job. He had just taken the job. Ooh, that doesn't look so good. No, I mean, he was definitely doing a ton of other, he was like, doing spy work and shit before this.

So he was like, that's why he came into it so overexhausted, but he gives Capricorn energy. He does a little bit. So I figured we would start part two by going into another thing just so you can have background on what we're talking about. A lot of these places, in fact, almost all of these places, that we are going to be talking about where victims were found or seen last,

you're gonna hear Spiddle fields a lot. Spiddle was actually a name for a type of hospital. Spiddle. Oh, it was actually, I think it was like a charitable hospital where like they did this for free. They would take care of people who couldn't pay for medical care. So, the fields east of the St. Mary's Spittle, it's called, which was founded in 1197. Oh my goodness.

Yeah. We're where the Spittle Fields got their name. Okay. And so, there's apparently this beautiful and like very imposing and just like gothic looking church called Christ church that still stands there today and was here in that spot during the Ripper crimes like you could go to this spot and be like this was here during all of that. Love it. And it's basically around that is Spittelfield markets and other businesses and a lot of Ripper locations are in spittle fields. So Dorset Street, where we've already mentioned that street, it's where a lot of the lodging

homes were and where a lot of the women were killed, that were killed by Jack the Ripper were on it or out and about on Dorset Street. It was considered one of the worst streets at the time and very dangerous. But what street wasn't in London? Yeah. Considered one of the worst and very dangerous. But what street was in London? Yeah, considered one of the worst and very dangerous. It's true. Well, London itself had a whole other end

that wasn't as dangerous as it was in White Chapel. Yeah, like the White Chapel area was definitely like just city. Narly. But there were certain streets that were like, you turned down that. Those were the streets that the police wouldn't go down by themselves. Right.

So that dorset street was one of those Annie Chapman who we're going to talk about. It's found murdered on Hanbury street, which is also part of Spitalfield's fashion street is where Catherine Edo's. We will talk about her in part three, where she was staying and also where we see Elizabeth Stride staying with a man for some time. We'll talk about her too. also where we see Elizabeth Stride staying with a man for some time. We'll talk about her too. There, there was just everywhere. The Spittelfield is, it feels as a huge part of this story.

The Ten Bells pub still stands today and was possibly the last place Annie Chapman was seen. It's just create like you can literally go there and be like, whoa, like this is where to sit there. It would be so heavy. It would just to think like this is the last place she was seen. Right. Like a life with somebody. It's a lot.

So I was excited when I was, you know, you see Spiddle Fields over and over again. I was excited to be able to bring Ghost into this. So I was waiting for you to, and I wasn't gonna steal your thunder and make a comment because that's your band baby. But I was like, she's not saying anything about Spittelfields. Yeah, no, of course I am. It happened to fit perfectly that there is a song on their latest album, one of which I love. This is one of my favorite songs on the album.

Hand Confirmed. Called, Respeite on the Spittelfields. And I had to look into this because, of course, what could that mean? And when you listen to the lyrics, you're like, all right, what's this about? Apparently Tobias has said, it's about the aftermath of Jack the Ripper, and it's very obvious when you know that. He said it's all based on the fear that prevailed because of the fact that he was not identified.

He said in an interview, the fact that he was never identified, it says which meant that even though he had technically stopped killing at some point, they were never sure that he was not going to do it again. So for a long time after, there must have been fear, especially among women, that it could happen again because you don't know where he is. You don't know where he's hiding. You don't know what happened.

Right. So, we'll get into the aftermath of the Ripper murders and probably part four, five, four, five, whichever one we end on. When we talk about theories and suspects, we're going to talk about how the aftermath was. But the song has lyrics like, you know, he sliced and diced our dreams to pieces to pieces. And the moon and the gutter has a story to tell one day who will come back from the bowels of hell. So creepy, so heavy when you actually dive into this case and when you realize what it's about, because we listen to ghosts all the time in the car, like when we take our little morning drives for coffee,

and I've heard this song a million times, but then you were saying the other day, you were like, this is about Jack the Ripper, and I listened closer and I was like, holy shit. Yeah, it's just, it's even the music. Yeah, it kind of brings you there. It's like a really well done like, oh, gosh, to that time, I think.

And then they say like they're leaving London, like we're leaving the city. Like a by seven sisters, which is like a road in London. Like there's, there's a lot of it. I'd suggest you go listen to it, especially since you're listening to this series right now, it'll get you in the mood. It definitely got me in the mood.

Yeah, it's a good song. I may come back to this song later in part three. Maybe when we talk more about police and the shenanigans that arose around this case, we're gonna touch upon that in this one too. But there's a lyric that I also wondered maybe referring to Sir Charles Warren who led the Metropolitan Police Force during these crimes. But that was just kind of an interesting look into Spittlefield's in a good song related to it

basically. And I'll tell you the lyrics that I think might be referencing him, but it was like when I want to wait a little bit until we get there. We'll be get there today. I don't know if we'll get there today. I should, you know what, I'll give you the lyrics. Because why should I make you wait? So there's a lyric that says, you know, the king that we hailed was the Wizard of Oz.

Like we found out that the king we have. The thing about Sir Charles Warren and I'm going to go into him right now, actually, so that it's kind of workout, is that he, everyone had such high hopes for him. And I think he probably could have done a little better, but I think he had a lot of bad hands-delt to him for sure, but he didn't handle some big events very well. Okay. And so I think people were so ready for this guy to come in and organize this police force

and get the whip him in a shape and then it just fell apart. And to me it's like the king we hailed with the Wizard of Oz, like he kind of was the Wizard of Oz where it was all smoke and mirrors and it behind the scenes it was a mess. That makes sense. But I don't know. I don't know. Can we ask Tobias at some point maybe?

That'd be so cool. Does he could I just ask him like what did that mean? That means her Charles Warren? That's on manifesting. That is on manifesting. I want to be able to talk to him about this case so badly. Now, maybe you'll get the opportunity someday. I hope so, man.

Tobias, you hear that? So you're listening right? Hello. So quick little sidetrack about Sir Charles Warren while we are on that. Just so you know, because he's going to come up a lot in this, and I don't want you to be like, who's that guy? Like I said, he was appointed chief commissioner of police for the Metropolitan Police Force in March 1886. He was a major general in the Royal Engineers and his militaristic ways

were definitely something that made him a prime candidate for the job he was given. He was actually the third choice for this job, but you know, details. Third time is the charm. They got him. So he was the heir to put them all in their place, essentially, because the Metropolitan Police Force was a fucking wreck. Like, there was just no... There was a lot of disrespect.

There was a lot of distrust, low morale amongst the ranks. I mean, a woman had walked past them, like bleeding out with her intestines on the side, and they didn't notice her. Yeah, they just didn't notice. That about wraps that up. So I guess, Sir Charles Warren came in, he commanded respect, he gave it back sometimes, and he ran a tight ship, and he wanted to, and he wanted to keep exactly.

So I had to. You had to. So he kind of got the ranks in order. He, people knew what they were expected to do when he came in. At least that was something that happened. But unfortunately, he also had a really rocky start and really finished to the role there. Bloody Sunday, November 13th, 1887, was one thing that really just popped a jagged hole in his 10 year as commissioner, I would say.

If something's gonna do it, it is Bloody Sunday. Something called Bloody Anything is really gonna do it. I'm not gonna get into like the minute details here because we would be here for another episode on Just Bloody Sunday, if I did that. Maybe another time. Maybe another time. I'm just gonna give you a quick overview

so you know why people had a lot of distrust after this. Trafalgar Square where Mary Ann Nichols was arrested sleeping in. Okay. Was actually a place where a lot of protests and gatherings happened often. And Warren was worried that, you know, the gathering of minds and ideas was going to threaten good society. He was worried that they were going to come together and they were going to just like riot and something bad was going to happen. So he was like, I got to stop this. So he asked the home secretary, Henry, Henry Matthews to ban all gatherings in the square. So Henry Matthews took a while to actually like respond to this because again, there's a lot of weird shit happening in this police force. There's a lot of like egos.

There's a lot of like, I like this guy. And now you're in his spot. Oh, I'm not going to listen to you. Always. So he took a while to answer that. But after a couple of months, he agreed. And he was like, sure, let's ban gatherings in the square. And when he did, Commissioner Warren announced this ban was going into effect.

Several groups found this to be unfair and planned a large gathering to protest it in the square on November 13. In preparation for this, Warren stationed 4,000 constables, 300 mountain-bounded policemen, 300 mounted lifeguards, armed foot guards, and more in the square. That's a lot. I'm sure it probably comes to zero surprised to anybody listening right now that shit got violent and bloody very quickly. Of course. So needless to say he was not beloved after this. No. Then with the ripper... What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill?

I'm Candace DeLong and on my podcast, Killer Psychie Daily, which you can find exclusively on Amazon Music. I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds you read about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and a criminal profiler. On Killer Psychie Daily, I'll give you my expert perspective on cases like the mysterious New York City drugings, Breaking Down Lori Vallow, a.k.a. Mommy Doomstays Motives, and what drove Caitlin Armstrong to murder? I'll also bring on expert guests who add even

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to just the ends degree. Those names do sound familiar. I was gonna say probably more than Edmund Reed, I would say Inspector Aberlene is someone that everybody's. Yep, that's the one that I recognize. Yeah, I was gonna say that's somebody that a lot of people like connect with this case for good reason. Now, when Mary Ann Mon Yeah, I was going to say that's somebody that a lot of people connect with this case with for good reason.

Now when Mary Ann Monk, who was Nichols' friend and the one who helped identify her, said to Aberlene, she has a husband, a strange, but she has a husband, he might know something. Aberlene immediately located him to bring him to the inquest. Get it, Aberlene. It was in front of the inquest that they were like, hey, you need to bring this guy in. And Aberlene was like, can have him by Monday. And he had him by Monday.

So he's on it. Yeah. So we're going to talk more about Aberlene later for sure. So this brings us to September 8, 1888. The day after Robert Anderson, the new assistant commissioner of the CID, has taken a doctor order to call it a to Switzerland. Oh man.

Yeah. On this morning, you are now going to meet John Davis. Hello, John. John Davis is a 56-year-old Carmen who worked for lead-in-haul market. I hope that's how you say it, or lead-in-haul. I'll say lead-in-haul, it sounds better. Lead-in-haul does sound better. Yeah, he worked for lead-in-haul market, living in a lodging home at 29 Hanbury Street

and Spittelfields. He was living in the third floor attic with his wife and three sons. They had moved into this lodging home three weeks prior, and since living there, they had learned that often sex workers would haggle with and bring their clientele into the yard outside of the building, and he would often have to kind of like shoot them away.

That was just like part of his daily routine. An interesting time. Very interesting time. The yard in the back of the home had a gate that was never locked. It was just a gate, and actually most sources I saw, were like, we don't even know if it did lock. Yikes. So it was an easy area for people to just trample through

or to bring clients to or to what was called sleep rough, which was sleeping outside. Okay. And it was kind of like a through way that people would just use. So they just stop through this yard. Do people say rough in it? No. Rough in it?

Yeah. Like if you're going camping, you're like rough in it. Yeah. Yeah. They used to be called sleep rough when you were sleeping outside. This lodging home was one that you would typically find in this area in the east end. It had eight rooms and there were 17 people living

in them. The very cramped quarters. You would say so. The previous evening, September 7th, he said he went to sleep around 8 p.m. and he woke up, quote, from 3 a.m. to 5 a.m. on Saturday, and then fell asleep until a quarter to six when the clock at Spittelfield's church struck. I had a cup of tea and went downstairs to the

backyard." In a coroner's inquest later, Davis said this. He said, quote, the house faces Hanbury Street with one window on the ground floor and a door at the side leading into a passage which runs through into the yard. There is a back door at the end of this passage opening into the yard. There is a back door at the end of this passage opening into the yard. Neither of the doors was able to be locked, and I have never seen them locked. Anyone who knows where the latch of the front door is could open it and go along the passage into the back yard. There was a little recess on the left from the steps to the fences about three feet. There are three stone steps unprotected, leading from the door to the fence is about three feet. There are three stone steps unprotected,

leading from the door to the yard, which is at a lower level than that of the passage. Directly, I opened the door, I saw a woman lying down in the left-hand recess between the stone steps and the fence. She was on her back with her head, with her head towards the house and her legs towards the woodshed.

The clothes were much, much disarranged. I did not go into the yard but left the house by the front door and called the attention of two men to the circumstances. They work at Mr. Bailey's, a pack-case maker of Hanbury Street. I do not know their names, but I know them by sight. So he told the corner that those men had got a police constable and that they had not entered the yard at all, nor had he again. They were like, we're not going in there.

Yeah. The coroner was pissed. At one point, Davis was like, I don't know what their names were. And the coroner was like, you don't know what their name, like no one talked to these men. Right. Okay, I'm over there. And so then Davis was like, yeah, I don't know. I have to get to work.

So I don't have it, which is like just, you didn't know. I was gonna say. But the coroner said, quote, your work is of no consequence compared with this inquiry. So he was literally like, I don't have time for this. And honestly, the coroners, I don't blame them. They're probably getting so frustrated with these cases because they're like, no one's telling us anything. Well, nobody seems to be paying attention to anything. No, and as we'll see later, they're not giving the maps of the area, they're not giving them where the body was found

sometimes when they're getting the body afterwards. They were really given shit all to work with. And then they're like, how do you expect us to do our job properly? And they're like, well, we need to speak to these men and he's like, yeah, I don't know who those men are. So, and it's like, dude, I know that you don't know, but like, what the fuck? So these men ended up finding Inspector Joseph Chandler,

and they summoned him to the scene. Now, by this time, I should say, anti-Semitism had made its way into this case already. And newspapers and assholes on the street were saying it had to be a Jewish person who committed these crimes. Why is the world so fucked up? Yeah, it was basically an excuse to attack Jewish people.

Exactly. This was a pervang theme here. It goes through when tragedy strikes. There's always people who use it as an excuse to execute their wills of, you know, racism onto the masses. Mm-hmm. But it does become a thing where they're like, well, I saw her with a Jewish man. And it's like, okay, can you just like shut the fuck up? Yeah, it does become a thing. So it's important to note, but what inspector Chandler found was the savagely murdered body of a woman lying on her back. Her hands were raised and her face was so covered in blood as well as her hands that Davis said when he first saw her, he couldn't even tell where the injury was because it was just blood. Oh, whenever you hear that, you just think about finding somebody in that state.

Oh, I can't imagine. Her legs bent with her knees facing out and her feet on the ground. Her coat and her skirt, both black, had been pulled up to expose her body, and they were soaked in blood. She was wearing striped stockings, which were obvious from her positioning, and she had been completely and brutally disinboweled. There was some kind of fabric or scarf or handkerchief most likely wrapped around her neck as well, but they said they believed that was done by her. Like a fashion thing.

The police report said, quote, small intestines and flap of the abdomen lying on right side above right shoulder attached by a cord with the rest of the intestines inside the body. Two flaps of skin from the lower part of the abdomen lying in a large quantity of blood above the left shoulder.

Throat cut deeply from left and back in jagged manner right around the throat. Her throat was cut so deeply and so brutally that the killer had almost removed her head from her body. Wow. And they said he likely meant to. He just didn't get to. He didn't have time.

Because they said he literally grinded it into that vertebrae in your neck, so he was trying to separate those bones for sure. At one point, someone in the crowd had gathered or someone in this crowd that had already gathered to Gawk. They grabbed a tarpiline and they did put it on her. That was the case. Which is nice, but like don't do that. Oh yeah. I'm like that's really sweet. That's nice. And you're like that's sweeping evidence away. Yeah, that's not great. I understand the intention. I love it.

I feel it. I'm there for it. But like logic, like don't do that. Right, right. So Chandler sent for a doctor to examine the body before moving it to the mortuary and began a search of the crime scene. He ended up finding blood stains on the fence about,

and it was right above her, about 14 inches up. Damn. And some more on the wall behind her. Now her wedding ring and what they think was two more brass rings were forcibly removed from her fingers and not found. Huh, yeah, and they looked, they were like bruised, like he had ripped them off her face. Jesus.

Her pocket and her skirt was cut open with a blade. And the contents were not stolen, they were just placed around her. There was a comb, some muslin fabric, and a paper case. That was just like open and empty. We're next to her on the ground. Next to her head was a piece of paper and a ripped up piece of envelope with the letter M on it

and postage from August 28, 1888 with a couple of pills inside of it. Okay. In the envelope. Now, most intriguing, but something that really doesn't, it like plays into some suspects, but they kind of just let this go after a while. Most intriguing was a leather apron

that was found nearby, soaked in water. Huh. Almost like it had been like, rinsed off. Yeah. Because it was a little water spout nearby. Okay. And I said it looked like it had been like, rinsed off. Yeah. Because it was a little water spout nearby. Okay. And I said it looks like it had been washed off. Which is weird.

Because you leave her in the state that she's in and like, there's blood and skin and horrible things everywhere. But it's like, why would you wash off the apron? Yeah. And you could have like, cleaned up the little contents that was in her bag. Yeah. Like, you would think you maybe would do that. But then you, when you look at how quickly these are done and what they are finding out that these are done so quickly,

he didn't have time for anything. He had time to do his, what he was there to do. He didn't have time for anything extra. Then why would he wash the apron? You would think that's why I don't think it belonged to him. Wasn't related. I just had to belong there. It's intriguing.

I don't think it belonged to him. Yeah. Yeah, the aprons were everywhere. People were wearing them for a lot of different jobs. It doesn't surprise me that one was in the yard. Yeah. Just discarded. Okay. But, and that's why I just don't think.

Yeah. He wasn't taking time to clean anything. No, because that never happened at any other crime scene to my knowledge, right? Yeah, no, it just doesn't, it doesn't really ring true to what he's doing here. To me, it seems like he's doing these things very quickly, very efficiently at most of them. And he's getting the hell out of there. Right. And he must have

somewhere he can go that he can clean up. Yeah, quite a pleasure. Even. And then the other thing that's weird to me is that he stole her rings because previously, nothing had been stolen off of Polly. Well, that's the thing. It doesn't feel like the motive here, like their brass rings. Like it doesn't feel like the motive here is robbery or like for profit. Do you think that was a trophy?

I don't know if that was a trophy or if it was to confuse police or what. Huh. But I don't know. But this is Jack. everything else has the Jack Oh, yeah, this all has the Jack emblem all over it So when Dr. George bagster Phillips showed up he stated she was indeed deceased and she was taken immediately away to avoid any further Gathering of people around her

in the afternoon a woman named Amelia Farmer came in and identified the victim as Annie Chapman, who also was called by some dark Annie. She had been her friend. Later, her brother, and I've seen it spelled fountain and also fountain. So I'm not exactly sure which one it is. I mostly saw it as fountain, so I'm gonna go with that. He was brought in to identify her as well later, and it was something that destroyed him emotionally. Of course. A family member should have never been brought in

in the state that she was in. But they have to. No, I totally have to. No, I know. I'm just like, oh my god. Yeah, it's like, it's an unfortunate. And then you never have to go through that. No, you never should have to. And he started drinking as a result of seeing his sister that way.

And he actually suffered a breakdown. I'm not surprised. I mean, how do you ever get that image out of your head of your sister? Yeah. And apparently it got so bad. And this is from the five, the book that I'm going to, I think I linked it in the first part, but I'm going to link it again. It got so bad that he ended up stealing from his employer at one point to buy alcohol and he got fired from his job. He had a wife and two children. He eventually ran like a band in his family. The next week he surrendered himself to the police station and wrote a letter to his wife saying, quote, oh my darling wife, it is the cursed drink.

For God's sake, don't let the children touch it. And he felt supremely guilty that he didn't know Annie's troubles and they had a drink together the last time he saw her. And I'm sure that was weighing on him as well. He eventually did regain himself. He got his family back and they all moved to America for this deal.

So there was happiness. There was at least some kind of like he escaped with his family back and they all moved to America for the deal. So there was happiness There was at least some kind of like he escaped with his family. Yeah. Now let's talk about Annie Chapman She was actually born Eliza and Smith and she was raised in Paddington, West London and born on September September 2nd, 1841 So another woman that died very close to her birthday. Yeah, I know it's a strange little coincidence. Yeah. Her mother was Ruth Chapman and her father was George Smith. And he was a military man.

He served in the second life guards, the cement that he was not deployed, like overseas or anything, but instead worked as part of the Queen's household Calvary. He basically was in charge of keeping the Queen and the Royal Family safe at their home. Wow, which is a pretty important job. The family moved around a lot because of this military service and the Queen and the Royal Family would live in different places like Windsor and stuff and he would have to go live there. That's kind of cool. But unfortunately,

both the parents drank excessively and were known for this. They were actually not married when Annie was born and didn't get married until after she was born. And this was taboo. So scandalous at the time. They were seen as very taboo, very scandalous. And Annie soon was joined by a younger sister Emily and another younger sister Georgina. I love that name.

I'd say it's really cute, but this was much later when Annie was like 15 years old. Wow. And then they had Miriam and a brother fountain. Okay. Now the family was doing well. They lived in a lot of, you know, very nice homes and were not struggling with George's job being pretty upstanding and financially rewarding.

During this time when they were living in Windsor, one of the many times they moved there. Annie got to know a man named John Chapman. Now you're probably like, hmm, her mom's last name is Chapman. Oh, that actually went completely over my head, so that's good. Her mom's last name is Ruth Chapman. They were related on their mother's side, and her mother's side. Distantly. And cousins of some sort. Okay. He was working in Windsor as a valet and making decent wages. He would sneak Annie and himself into his employer's home, using the keys that he was trusted with, and not great, and they would drink his liquor together.

That was like their thing. Okay. Annie got hooked on rum at this point. Oh, really? She really enjoyed rum. They liked each other. They, you know, keep in the bloodlines, peer her and all that, as opposed. Well, the thing is, you have your cousins and then your first cousins.

There it is. There it is. I had to. You got to bring it to a place of mean girls. I was waiting to. And, you know, back then it just wasn't as uncommon as it is now. It was like way more common. So Annie did not get along with her sisters.

She was independent, she was rebellious, she didn't like the idea of being a proper lady, she didn't want to like conform to society. Huh, her sisters in contrast were shy, what she considered prudish and like to stay within the bounds of what society had laid out for them. Because that's what they were being raised to do. They were just kind of going along with the family thing. Yeah. She was like, I'm not into it. She's also a Virgo, and I feel like I'm learning more lately that Virgo's kind of like to push boundaries like a little bit. Not in a bad way, but like test limits.

Yeah. I see that. My youngest is a Virgo, so yes, I agree with that. And then think of, we have some other family members in front of our Virgos, and it's actually applicable to almost all of them. It really is, it makes a lot of sense. Now, after a ton of moves in 1862, the family was sent to live back in Windsor, where the Queen was spending a lot of time at this time. At the time of the move, they had been living in London and Annie, being about 21 at the time, stayed behind to take on work as

a domestic servant. This was very common. She was, honestly, she was like striking with brown, wavy hair, like very piercing blue eyes. She had this like independent personality. She was feisty. She was unique. She just like wasn't going along with shit. Burgos are cool, man. You like get it, Annie. Annie was cool. Not two years later, this is really sad. Her father ended up killing himself by slashing his own throat. Oh my.

Apparently he had retired from his job early and was working as what was referred to as a man servant. Depression took over. He was not used to that kind of work. He was used to a different kind of work. He was predisposed to depression. He was drinking a lot. That mixed with, you know, the heavy drinking. Unfortunately, he just couldn't get out of it. Okay. And if unfortunately, too, this month of the family was not just losing

him, they were losing everything. Yeah. They were financially ruined. That's awful. So, Ruth had to move all the kids back to London to stay with a friend in night's bridge. By this time, John Chapman and Annie were becoming very infatuated with each other, and he asked her to marry him. So they married May 1st, 1869. By 1870, they had their first child together, a daughter named Emily Ruth Jane,

which is really cute that it's like Ruth after the month. It is. Unfortunately, Annie liked to drink, and she developed a taste for rum. Oh, no. And she'd come from two parents who were very heavy drinkers. That's what she was shown. She spent a lot of their money on this,

causing them to have to move from their first home together back to a lodging, to lodging with her mother Ruth and the other siblings. Which is definitely gonna be stressful. A lot of siblings. And she had a series of stillbirths before having another daughter, which is like devastating. Another daughter named Annie Georgina Chapman. So, George after her dad. Yeah, and she had a sister Georgina too. Yeah, Georgina was an other one. And she had a sister Emily, so interesting. So it's cute. John got work on Bond Street and Mayfair, and they got a place in a pretty exclusive area.

So things started going much more smoothly once he got this job. Our thing's just like edging and flowing constantly. Because then Annie got him fired. Oh no, how? She stole something from his boss. Oh. Either stole clothing or something to pawn for rum

or she stole the liquor itself who can't tell. This made her brother and sisters furious. They were all religious, they all had upstanding jobs at the time, they were starting families of their own, they had grown up with parents who severely abused alcohol and now they saw their older sister falling into it. They convinced her at the time because

they were like, we're going to save you. And I think they had like good intentions at the time. They had taken a plug. They wanted her to join the temperance movement with them. Okay. It persuaded alcoholics to take a pledge of abstinence from the drink and they had all done so. So it's kind of like an AA. Temperance was pretty intense. There was a pretty intense movement. That's the sad thing, yeah. Because these, like, anybody struggling with alcoholism

at this time didn't have a program that wasn't super intense. That wasn't intense. Over the top, and making them feel like they were committing, like, the worst thing they could ever do by even having a sip. Right. But they had, I believe they had good intentions here.

They just wanted to save their sister from what they felt like their parents had fallen into. They were seeing her go down a bad path. And this is the resource that was available to them. That's all they do. And they were raised at different, you know, that's just the way it is. Now, they wanted Annie to do the same.

They wanted her to take this pledge. They wanted her to like get away from it and she said, fuck off. She did it. No, she did it. Right. But she did it to please them and not for herself. And that's not gonna work.

This is evidenced by the evidence by the fact that she didn't stop and actually ramped up her rum drinking up to the point that in 1877, John, her husband requested that she enter a program to get sober. Okay. So she did agree and she entered a voluntary program. I didn't even realize, okay, so they do kind of have programs, but not great programs.

Not great. These are not programs where you're going and you're having, you're like actually talking about things and working through why you're drinking and getting to the bottom of it and like actually having like support and stuff. It was like a lot of just forced religion and forced. It was a lot of stuff that wasn't going to help you get to the bottom of why you were drinking

in the first place and maybe get you to want to stop. Forcing anybody to do anything is never going to have great results. Now she spent up to a year in that program. She was really trying. And while she was in there, her sisters actually paid to have her daughters sent to school. So that's nice. So her siblings did rally around her

and we're like, let's, we want to make sure. That's the point. Our nieces are getting what they need. And the sisters also helped the two children get like take the important societal steps that they felt were necessary. Like taking music lessons and like learning this and that, like learning how to be proper ladies.

Like all of that kind of stuff. They were nurturing the kids because that's what they thought was supposed to be happened. Very Bridgerton. Now, John got another job in Windsor with another wealthy family after he was fired from the last one. And it was very rewarding this one.

He moved to their daughters to live over the stables at St. Leonard's Hill mansion where he worked. It was very nice there. The people were nice there. While Annie sisters helped out with making sure her daughters received the schooling and training they would need, John's boss provided the family with a nanny named Carolyn. Great. Unfortunately, Emily Ruth Jane was suffering from epilepsy. Oh, no. Which meant she would be treated by society like she was a demon spawn. Oh, oh. Because at the time, epileptics were not treated as like,

oh, you have a disorder and we need to help you. You even touched by the hand of the devil. You, something terrible was done for this to happen to you and you're possessed by a demon. What the fuck? Yeah, it was really bad. And they even at times, like people thought epilepsy was brought on by like too much masturbation.

All right. Like that was a thing. Or just being possessed by a demon. And I cannot. So things, they were able to, a lot of the nanny, I guess, was really taken care of Emily Ruth Jane. Like she was there to make sure that she was taken care of. She knew that she was not possessed by the bed.

Exactly. Things seemed to be going well, and then Annie came home from treatment. She had completed that almost year of treatment. She was ready to live with her family again, so she moved in. They were all excited to have her back. But everyone else who was working and living on this estate was a little suspicious of her coming back. Like the people they were working for were like, I don't know about this because they're like, you know, they're elite and they're looking at this.

They're looking at this. She's made this mistake and she can't possibly come back. But look, she's trying to rectify it. Like that sucks. And they thought she was faking her sobriety, all that stuff. Like a very chance.

Yeah. Now, around this time, she became pregnant with a son who would later be named John Alfred. Unfortunately, she was not able to stick to sobriety and things got pretty messy and pretty bad really quickly. She began drinking heavily again while pregnant. I'm not sure if it was well pregnant. I can't say for sure, but she was definitely

drinking at this time. And some people say there is a story that I've read in a lot of different sources That say she was really going along with the sobriety thing, but then one day I think John had like a cold and back then You would have like a hot cup of whiskey to loosen it up and he that, and then he gave her a kiss goodbye to go to work. And she tasted the whiskey, and that's what set her into it. That's a story. I've heard it in many different places, but obviously we can't confirm that. All we know is that it did get bad. So John eventually had enough.

He didn't want to lose another job. That supported his family, so he threw her out, even though she was pregnant at the time that he threw her out. So I she was pregnant at the time that he threw her out. So I imagine she was drinking all pregnant. Wolf. Now, her son, John, was born with partial paralysis and had to be placed into a hospital shortly after birth. Nothing worked for him there.

Obviously, they weren't able to cure the paralysis. And even though John and Annie had come together again while this was going on because they wanted to support each other. This was tragic. She went right back into drinking heavily again, got bad again. She was spending all the money on rum and neglecting to buy food and clothing and such. He told her, this is the last straw. I never want to see you again.

So she left and was homeless for a while. After weeks of struggling, she knew it was White Chappell where she was going to be able to find cheap lodging and maybe some kind of work. It was exactly how I explained it to be with hard conditions, a deep disdain for those living in poverty. It was just bad. Hey there, fellow podcast listener, it's Elena.

And Ash, and we're taking you back to the days before streaming services. Whoa. You know when you would come home from high school and it was only a few hours until that TV show, everyone was watching was about to come on. Well in 1999, that show was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In our podcast with Wondery, the re-watcher Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we take it back to 1999. So get out your knee-high boots and paste that poster of Angel on the Wall. It's time to enter the Buffyverse. Some of you avid morbid listeners already know what we've gotten store. Joanne knows. Joanne knows, as we sway our way through Buffy's drama,

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care of order, go to takecareof.com and enter code morbid50. Again, that's 50% off your first care of order by going to takecareof.com and enter in code morbid50. So John, of course, I mentioned it in the first part, was required to pay her weeks, weekly allowance. Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. That's really all she had in the beginning. But then she started to, she was like, you know what, I have some talents here. Like she possessed many talents. Everyone who came forward to say they were around her during this time in her life said she was sweet, intelligent, and well-spoken. She was also, they said she was feisty,

but like in a fun way. They felt calm around her when she wasn't drinking. Okay, when she drank, it was a whole other story. It's so sad how that happens because she, she could be your best friend, and you're like, I love you so much, and then it's a whole entire side. And like you know that person is such a good person

and what they're capable of. Yeah, and what comes out when they drink is just not who they are. Who they are. But while she had previously, so while she was in treatment for that year, she'd spent a lot of her time sewing and crocheting and getting really good at it. And so while in white chapel, she decided like many other women

at the time that she could crochet, so in make artificial flowers and sell it all. People used to buy them, I said before, that they would put them on these fancy hats. Cool. And she dragged her wares to what is now known as West Ham to sell them. Unfortunately, it wasn't a like booming business. No, she was getting really almost nothing for it. All her hard work and she was barely getting anything back. And that sucks. Now her next move was to take up with men she knew

who could help her pay her way. She was especially known to be a round-a-man nicknamed the pensioner who was actually named Ted Stanley. He was older and had her wrapped a bit with his charms. And he had like, you know, tails of his colorful life and blah, blah, blah. He was currently working as a brick layer, so he did have a constant source of income,

but he wasn't like rolling in it. Was he a good dude? Yeah. So around this time she got newsposs. I'm not really. So around this time, it's hard to find good dudes in this story. There are some though. There are some.

I felt like her previous husband was like, kind. John Chapman seemed to have, he gave it his all. He really did. He seemed to have given it a good, a good go. A good go. Don't love that he threw out while pregnant. Just want to specify.

Yeah, don't love that. That's the thing. You really got to find the good here and it's real hard to find. It's sparse. Sparse. It's like, oh, blink and you miss it. Oh, that's, yeah. So around this time she got news, and this is sad.

She got news that her estranged husband, John Chapman, was very ill. Oh, no. And that he was not expected to live much longer. Oh, Jesus. She walked, this just broke my heart. She walked because it was her only option with no money. She tried to walk all the way to Windsor to be there for him.

And it's like crazy fun. In his last days, but she wasn't fast enough because it took so long. He died on Christmas day, 1886. And apparently, and this is going to be something that's going to make you go, oh, his cause of death was cirrhosis of the liver from heavy and long-term drinking. I just don't know if you've ever heard this phrase. It's called the pot calling the kettle black, John.

Now, I don't know what his drinking situation was. I don't know if he was drinking in the sense of like, he must have been like consistently drinking. But I don't know how that was affecting his outside life at all because he was a functioning, you know what I mean? But it's like that's not fair that that's just kind of shitty. But it's truly what you said, pot-calling the kettle black.

Like, you're both struggling from the same thing. Like, and you're shitting on her because she's just not as good as, get good at it as you are. Exactly. It's a tough situation because, of course, it's like back then people were doing things when they were pregnant that they weren't supposed

to be doing because not a lot was known about it. And it's just whatever. But, and obviously a lot of bad choices are made here. No one's making correct choices here. I said it in part one. We're not gonna find this thing where it's like, well, this person just has it all together. Like no one had it together back then.

It really has it together anyway. It just wasn't going well. So it's like, sure, we could sit here and look at it and say, these women made a lot of bad choices. Yeah. Do any of them deserve the shit that they went through? Absolutely. No one does.

No one does. No. No, it's really shitty and I never want them to be portrayed as deserving of being... No. Of being put in the situations they were put in because once they made it to White Chapel, there wasn't a lot of choices. They didn't really have a lot of chance. And it's like choices leading up to that sure could have been different

Yeah, and a lot of the situations but not all of them and just a side note question You can die of cirrhosis of the liver and actually not drink right like cirrhosis of the liver can be caused by other things Yeah, definitely can't his was caused by heavy drinking, but I was like it did I hear that? I know I've heard that yeah, so she was obviously devastated by his death, because although they had a rocky relationship, I think that there was like love there. Yeah. And I just couldn't function together is really the problem. She was devastated.

She never recovered from it. And a lot of people said she lost a lot of her spark in her hope after that. There was a lot of guilt associated with his death, I think. Yeah, definitely. So now she turned to sex work to try to stay afloat, because that's, I mean, I told you the numbers, there was an unbelievable amount of sex workers like actively working in the city of Whitechapel, and it was either a full-time gig

because they had nothing else, and that's the only way they could afford lodging, or it was a part-time thing where they would do the dress-making, and laundering, tailoring, crocheting, like anything like that. And then on the side, they would do it to supplement. Right.

It was very common. I mean, what else was there to do? Yeah. And at this point, you know, even though this was an extremely dangerous and violent line of work to go into, she really had no choice. Yeah. And well, now again, she doesn't have that money coming in from John.

Exactly. And I think she felt really hopeless. So I think it was like, yeah, she's sad. She only wanted money to keep drinking and keep roof over her head whenever she could. Right. Really. That was it. And she was often seen entertaining clients in Spittelfields and Whitechapel. Now at this point she started staying on Dundana, Dorset Street.

It was in a DOS house, which we've already mentioned as being the worst and most violent street of them all. Sure have. It was dangerous, horrific for her, and the money she earned from sex work only afforded her this and her constant flow of rum. That's it. She didn't, she really didn't care about much else. Well, I mean, she's lost her husband, she's lost her children, she's just like, it exists. She's just floating through, a lot of them could probably felt a little bit like ghosts,

just floating through the motions. This is when she began earning the nickname dark Annie. Because as I said, when she drank, she got a little gnarly. She was pretty violent and angry when she drank. And her circumstances met with the guilt she felt about her children in John was not helping her drunk and rages from occurring less. And then I just thought of too, her parents were alcoholic.

She had a rough childhood under her. She did. She has a lot of years of trauma. Does a lot of trauma happen in here for sure? And it's just, they're all sad stories. None of these stories are like wow this is a happy end day. It's like everything going for them and them. Yeah. So the Doss house she was staying at was 35 Dorset Street at Crossing Hams which was managed by a man named Timothy Donovan. He was not a nice guy really.

It was a house license to shelter 144 people, but he crammed over 300 in there. OK. Now Ted Stanley, the pensioner, was still kind of controlling Annie at this point, but was not actually helping her at all. That's the thing. I'm like, you want to help her out? No.

Brother? Every now and then, he would pay her for her bed at the Doss House, but he actually told the man running the Doss House that if Annie brought another man in there, he had to throw her out. What the fuck? But he, and at first, you'd be like, well, what? No, I know what his deal is. But he was seeing another woman named Eliza Cooper and paying for her bed, too.

I had a feeling. Couldn't bother to let them stay with him, just let them stay and filth every once in a while on his time. That's all he would do. What the fuck dude? Now, around this time towards the end of August, she ran into her brother, Fountain, on commercial road. She had, he did not know how bad things had gotten. She was scared to tell him what she was going through was embarrassed, so she kind of made it seem not all that bad.

Like, I'm okay, I'm just like scrounging a little bit. He was kind, and he gave her some money that he had in his pocket, the two of them sat down for a drink and that was it. That's like just knowing what happens and what he had to go through after. That's heartbreaking. Now Ted Stanley and Eliza Cooper became witnesses to Annie's last days, unfortunately. Ted told investigators he had seen her at the Pretania pub on Dorset Street, September 2, 1888, with Eliza Cooper. Oh, apparently they were not friends.

I do. Apparently a couple of days before this, Annie had borrowed a piece of soap from Ted Stanley and it was meant for Eliza. And Eliza got pissed because Annie had promised to give it back but didn't have it when Eliza confronted her. Annie threw a half penny at her and told her, here, buy some more, like just tossed it at her. Oh man.

So when they saw each other at the Britannia, they were both drunk and the familiar rage boiled up within them both. They immediately went after each other, screaming at each other, they were physically pushing each other, getting into each other's faces. And they're like, girls, the pensioner is not worth this at all.

It was getting ugly. Witnesses said the fighting was continuous. It went back all the way back to the DOS house they were fighting. Oh, man. Where Annie then slapped Eliza and Eliza lost it. She beat Annie badly and left her in bad condition. Oh, no. Now Annie's friend Amelia Farmer,

who would later identify her body, saw her the next day after this and she said she was horrified by her condition. Oh no. She had a black eye, a horribly bruised chest and she was feeling really ill. Likely, my thoughts are from blows to the head. She was probably suffering.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Something. She said she couldn't eat anything and had only had a cup of tea that day. So Amelia gave her some money for more tea and then said, please take care of yourself and do not drink. She was like, do not spend this money on drink.

And she said, buy yourself some tea. Yeah. And so she told her, Annie said, sure, I'm gonna go to White Chappell Workhouse tonight. Like I'll try to rest. And Amelia later said of Annie, sure, I'm going to go to Whitechapel workhouse tonight. Like, I'll try to rest. And Amelia later said of Annie, quote, I'm afraid she used to earn her living partly on the streets. She was a straightforward woman when she was sober,

clever and industrious with the needle, but she could not take too much drink. She had been living a very irregular life all the time I've known her. Annie did return to Whitechapel workhouse, and in return for a cold bath and some shitty stew, she was made to pick oakum, which is a very common thing that the poor were forced to do in these warehouses.

She had to meticulously untangle old ship ropes. Oh my God. And then get them into like these strands that could be used. And it was murder on the hands. And very intense work. It would like destroy your hands, just replying apart. But, bleeding by the end of it. So, she saw her again that Friday, September 6,

around 5 p.m. after she had left the workhouse, and she said she was still feeling terrible. She told Amelia she didn't even feel well enough to go to Stratford to try to sell anything. She said she was trying to push through and said she was going to pull herself together and earn some money, or she said, I'm gonna be sleeping outside tonight.

I wonder if she had, like, my first thought was, like, I wonder if she had a broken rib that caused internal bleeding or something. Yeah. Well, we find out. Oh, we do. So by 7 p.m., she went back to the DOS house and asked Timothy Donovan if she could just sit

in the kitchen for a while. And he wouldn't let her. So she was like, I don't have money. I just need to sit. He did say yes. I said, yep, you can sit in there. She was seen in the kitchen by another larger Fredrick Stevens around 12, 10 a.m.

He referred to her as being, quote, rather worse for drink. So I think she was like needing drink at this time. Oh, she's going through like withdrawal probably. She might have been. so a bit after this Another larger named Williams that he saw in the kitchen as well and chatted with her He too said she was not doing well and that she had taken out a little Paper box of pills from her pocket and it broke when she pulled it out

So the pills went everywhere and he helped her gather them She found a scrap of envelope in the kitchen and put the pills in there and place them back in her pocket. This is the envelope with the pills they found next to her body, near hours after this. So and she had gotten those pills apparently from the infirmary she had gone to. So they were, I think there was only two in there. Okay. She left after this and William said he thought she had gone to her bed. He was she would normally sleep in, but instead she had left and come back around 1.35 a.m. I think she had gotten a little bit to drink at that point. She hung out in the kitchen for a bit longer and then around 2 a.m., Timothy Donovan, the DOS manager, who had known her for months,

by the way. He kicked her out because she hadn't paid for her bed. At 2 a.m. Are you kidding me? It's like just let her sleep in the kitchen even. That's the thing. And she told him how sick she was. She knows her, yeah. Yeah, she told him how sick she was,

but he said he didn't give a shit and tossed her out. I think number one he doesn't give a shit because he wants to make his money, but you also think he maybe thought she was drunk and was just like, you gotta get out of here. I think, yeah, he did. Well, I think all it was. I think it was black and white.

You didn't pay for a bed. You don't get to stay here. Get out. That's so fucked up. And she told him when she left, he said, she told me, keep my bed open because I'm going to make my money and I'm going to sleep in it. Okay. And he was like, all right.

So at that point, the night guard, whose name was John Evans, said he saw her leave. He escorted her out of the Doss house around 1.45 AM. So she must have wandered around for hours, looking for clients to make her money for lodging. At 5.30 AM, there was a confirmed witness report from a parkkeeper's wife, Elizabeth Long, who said she was on her way to the market at that time, and she spotted what she knew was Annie Chapman, speaking to a man next to a house on Hamburg Street. She said the man looked, quote, like a foreigner,

not sure what that means. I agree. I was wearing a deer stalker hat and looked to be over 40 years old. A deer stalker hat is that classic plaid type hat you see on the Sherlock Holmes-y kind of guy. It's got flaps on the ear. It's like a very like it's a very it's very a stereotypical of what you would think of when you see the hat with like the Sherlock Holmes-y hat. I got you.

I so he was wearing one of those that becomes a recurring thing by the way. And she said that he asked her, will you? And she said, yes, this was near the place Annie was found at 29 Hamburg Street. So this could have been Jack. Could have been Jack. So a few moments later, a man living next door to 29 Hamburg Street at number 27 said he heard panic and terror. His man, his name was Albert Codosh, and he reported later that he heard screaming. Oh jeez. He said, quote, I live at 27 Hambury Street, and I am a carpenter. 27 is next door to 29 Hambury Street. On Saturday, September 8, I got up about a quarter past five in the morning and went into the yard. It was then about 20 minutes past five, I should think. As I returned towards

the back door, I heard a voice say, no, just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should think it came from the yard of number 29. I went indoors, but returned to the yard about three or four minutes afterwards. While coming back, I heard a sort of fall against the fence, which divides my yard from that of 29. It seemed as if something touched the fence hard and suddenly. Oddly, he just ignored it and went back to his shift for work. It's like you took the time to go back there and check to listen. Yeah. You heard something weird and he said, huh, that was weird. And he definitely heard her being murdered. I mean, he heard that. She was right next to the fence.

That's where she was found. And she's being brutally attacked clearly. Yeah, but I wonder if she couldn't make much noise because the way it cut her throat, exactly. So 6am rolls around in our friend, John Davis, stumbles upon the horrifically brutalized dead body of Annie Chapman. Now, when we began here, she was found in the yard of 29

Hamburg Street by John. The coroner had determined her throat had been so deeply cut, it had clearly been in a time to remove her head completely from her body. And she had been violently and pretty theatrically disemboweled. So after searching the area and finding the blood stains on the fence above her, her wedding ring and a couple of other rings, I'd been forcibly removed from her finger, the pocket in her skirt cut open, all those contents placed around her. Then they found that leather apron that was soaked in water. So after all of this, they finally took her body to Whitechapel work house in firmery

mortuary. This was an old Montague Street. This was a shed, essentially. Jesus. Shit was not great. No. Like how are you doing, Dr. Phillips? Not well bitch, is what he would say.

Ah! Like, that's what he would say. He was not happy with his. A lot of these corners were like, hey guys, help. We have a pretty important job and you're not giving us any shit to work with. Like, can we have somebody help us? But again, not shocking. Not at all.

Annie was described as being about 48 years old. She was short at about five feet. She was described as stout. She had dark hair that waved a bit, blue eyes, like I said, and two of her bottom teeth were missing. Okay. Now, when a proper examination was conducted of the body, now that it was stripped and washed, the condition was even more horrific than they thought.

Her face and tongue was swollen. Now this led him to believe there was some kind of suffocation before he attempted to move the head because your tongue will protrude and swell. I didn't realize that. Yeah. So, her eye, especially, had a massive bruise on it and so did her chest. He was able to determine that the bruises on her chin

and the sides of her jaw were recent and likely from the killer, but the chest and eye and temple bruising were from several days earlier. We know who. Good old Eliza. Biot. So now since the head of the Criminal Investigations Department, Robert Anderson was now informed

of what was happening back home. Oh, man. He was starting to get lightly trashed in the press for being away and not returning to stop this. I mean, yeah. After all, now we had Marianne Nichols and Annie Chapman murdered in similar and very brutal ways in his jurisdiction. And there were arguments if there were two others.

Exactly. At this point, the CID, which is tasked with investigating and stopping this spree, is effectively literless at this point. Yeah. So when the Inquest began two days later, even more horrific details were released. Now, they didn't release any of these into the papers. None of the papers had any kind of knowledge of these, but initially, Dr. Phillips didn't even want to release them to the anything.

He didn't want to talk about them. He didn't want them on the record. He had a good reason for this, and I understand when he was saying, he said, the injuries and mutilations were so horrific that it would be, quote, too painful to the feelings of the jury in public. He said, I released to the cause of death, which was a severed carotid artery. He said, everything after that was gratuitous and does not have anything to do with the cause of death.

All you need to know is the cause of death. You do not need to know what, anything after that. He was saying like, we can have it on record, whatever, but I don't want it released to the public. Okay. I do understand where he was coming from with that, trying to save gratuitous details from being released that didn't cause her death. Yeah. But like obviously you can't do that, because a lot of this has to do with the pathology of the killer. So, but at that time, that was not really really worried about public terror at this point. That's the thing. So at first the inquest bros agreed,

but then they said the inquest bros. At first they would not let that go. They were like, okay, yeah, that we got that. But then they were like, no, you need to come back and you need to tell us every single detail. Like, he's like, I just need him. I need him all. They were like, we gotta release these.

We're not gonna release them in the press, but we need to at least have them so that we can investigate files from them. But before he agreed to tell them, he said, okay, fine. I will, I guess I have to. But he said, I want every woman and any children that could be in the area to leave. I don't want them to be subject to any of this.

He said, this is not fit for publication and any media source. And it's not fit for women. It is not so as he explained the following, and well back then it wasn't even like, it's not fit for women, they were like, your constitutions are too delicate to hear such terrible things. Like that was their way of like, I'm trying to save the women and the children from hearing this horrific nightmare. Yeah, yeah. I get the chance.

As he explained the following, several men in the room actually fainted, so there's that. So, Fufu, I know. So this is what it said. It's that her neck was cut twice, one after the other from left to right, and they were so deep that they cut into the vertebrae with a clear attempt to remove the head from the body. This is where it gets even wilder.

Quote. The abdomen had been entirely laid open, and the intestines severed from their mesenteric attachments, which had been lifted out and placed on the soldier's shoulder of the corpse, whilst from the pelvis, the uterus, and its appendages with the upper portion of the vagina, and the posterior two-thirds of the bladder had been entirely removed. Obviously, the work was that of an expert, or on at least who had such knowledge of anatomical or pathological examinations as to be enabled to secure the pelvis organs with one sweep of the knife. So he said those organs were removed from her body. And one sweet without jagged cuts, without a bunch of just tearing through

shit. And I can tell you, you can. I can speak from some experience here that it is hard. They would tell you, okay, start the, start the cuts. And you would have to take a second to find that part of the colon that you want to start at. It was hard. And you would look in there with the spotlights of, you know, two thousands and whatever's lab lights on here, all the technology that we have, all the lighting sources, everything that we have, that is hard.

Yeah. It all looks the same when you open it up. It's all beige, it's all red, it's all goop together, it's everything you can, you don't just look in there and be like, well, that is the pelvis, that is, that is the bladder, that's the uterus, these are the fallopian tubes. Like just a whole bunch of stuff. You find it, but it takes some time and it takes some skill and it takes some observation and it takes a lot of digging around and really finding where you're going to cut or else you're going to be making a fucking mess of someone's insides

and no one wants to do that. And years of studying before you even get to the point where they hand you the knife to cut someone. Exactly. We still had books in the autopsy suite anatomy and pathology books so that we could reference them if we needed to. Absolutely. It happens. But we're talking about 1888 in Whitechapel,

where like I said, darkness is something you have not experienced until you were in 1888 Whitechapel. And he's not like pulling out his iPhone for the flash. He's not pulling out any kind of light source. No. If he does have a light source, it's a lantern. It's a lantern, which I don't think he had, because no one said they saw anybody with a lantern.

He's doing this in the fucking dark. He's doing this with no time at all despair, in haste, waiting for people to show up. I have all the time in the fucking world in the autopsy suite, and it takes me a long fucking time. And to remove the pelvic block, that's hard. What is the test? What is the pelvic block?

That's what they're talking about with the bladder, the pelvis, the whole block of organs that are in your... Oh, okay. Even the thoracic block. They're all blocks of organs that usually you, for an autopsy, will take out all together. You'll keep them all connected, and you will lift them out of the body together.

And he took them out separately. But in order to do that, you have to cut connections that you know exist. Otherwise, you're just going to be slicing through most of these organs and fucking up the whole abdomen. How's that donut on your way to work though? So this guy, if he was able to take what they're saying to me, is what they told me. What Dr. Phillips tells me here, is that he took the uterus,

it's appendages in the upper portion of the vagina, and posterior two thirds of the bladder. He took all of that. To say that again. He took all of that. That's hard work to do, and that's somebody that, in my opinion, has at least a working knowledge of anatomy.

I like have cramps all of a sudden, but it's not even that. Yeah. Area of life. It's just, I don't understand, and maybe I'm standing on an island alone here. I know a lot of people will be like, Pishposh with the anatomy knowledge thing. No. No, because no. You have to learn like very, very, very basic anatomy for with the anatomy knowledge thing. No. No, because no. You have to learn like, very, very, very basic anatomy

for in-herschool, actually. Yeah. It was even like, basic, basic, basic anatomy. I could not wrap my brain around. Like, that's intense. And it's just, I think, unless you have taken part in a dissection and in a visceration and an autopsy, it's hard to understand the nuances

and the small, tiny things that are involved in that. That you don't just rip organs out of somebody's body. You don't just go, I see a uterus rip. That's not how that works. No. There are so many little connections that you have to make sure you cut before you take it out.

Yeah, I can appreciate that. I mean, I can't imagine. Even if the body was opened up for me and somebody told me, like, where's the uterus? I'd be like, I have no fucking idea. No, it's hard to figure out. Like, I can go into the general area on me where it is.

Yeah. Like, in a body, no fucking way. Exactly. And what's crazy is so that Dr. Phillips believed that this person, like I do, definitely had knowledge of the human body and anatomy. Had two of. It was one of those things that he believed

couldn't have just been, like I said, somebody ripping organs out, willy-nilly. No way. I mean, they took part of the upper portion of the vagina and part of the bladder. Right. And they took the appendages from the uterus. They took the whole damn thing.

What does that mean? Like the fallopian tubes. They took the, you know, they took all of the stuff that goes along with your uterus, they took the whole damn thing. What does that mean? Like the fallopian tubes, they took all of the stuff that goes along with your uterus. Oh, okay. Basically the reproductive system. Yeah, it was like a crude hysterectomy. Exactly, that's exactly a perfect way to say it.

Thank you. Now, especially also when you add onto this that it was completed within the time frame of about 15 fucking minutes, do you know how long a hysterectomy takes when your hysterectomy takes hours? Oh, so this is insane. Yeah, and what's crazy, like I've done

what's called rapid autopsies. Those are the middle of the night fares, the ones that are 2 a.m. Hey, come in and do this really quick. And a rapid autopsy, you're going in there, you're kinda doing it in a less organized fashion, you need to get a tissue out quickly within two hours of death.

Okay. Even with that, it's intense. You are taking a moment to figure out and like kind of like orient yourself in the body, even just to take pieces of tissue from certain organs. In that 15 minutes, I would be a real challenge. Maybe if you set up as time clock for me

and maybe I could do it, but I would have a lot of trouble. And getting all that out. Luckily you would not have to do like, no, that's wild. But getting all that out in that amount of time, it would be a challenge. So I don't think this is just like a leather worker

that I don't think so at all. Rough estimate, like how long do you think it took him to do that? For him to like kill her, do all of that and then be out a long long. They're thinking it was 15 minutes. 15 minutes. They're thinking it could be 15 minutes or less

that he was doing these things in. One of them, I mean, we'll talk about Mary Jane Kelly, who's the last victim he got to take his time with that one because he was inside of somewhere and he really went for it, but the other ones it was like he was going quick because he had to get the hell out of there. Most of the time they would find them and they were warm. Like he was, he had just left. It's wild.

Now, all of that said, what's even sadder what they found out was that the cause of death was loss of blood from a severed carotid artery. She was actually actively dying before Jack the Ripper got to her. She was suffering from a disease that the doctor said was slowly killing her. Oh. It affected her brain and possibly her lungs and the idea is that was it was probably either syphilis or tuberculosis that she was suffering from.

So she was in bad shape before. Now the murder weapon was determined to be a knife that was likely long at around six to eight inches in very sharp. They thought the same thing for Mary Nichols. He pointed out that a slaughterhouse worker's knife would be possible for these injuries, but not a leather worker. Okay. So he was like, that's not saying they wouldn't

have a knife like that, they just wouldn't use it for their trade. It's even crazy to me to think that he could have been a slaughterhouse worker though, because that anatomy is still different. It's different, but I guess maybe you have a little more, you have a leg up on somebody that has no knowledge of like an inside of a body, but it's a different kind of body.

But again, these are very important things to point out because with these being such big trades in the area and everywhere, it was necessary to narrow the scope a little and be like, I don't think it's a leather worker. I think it's more of these people. So again, the corner at the time said he was not even provided a map of the area. He wasn't provided anything that he could refer to again to see where the body was positioned. They ignored his request for it. So he was just like, cool, I guess I'll go fuck myself then. Thanks, Scott. So irritating. Again, how you do in Dr. Phillips, not well, bitch, because nobody's giving me anything to work with.

He's trying to make it nice. I'm really on the side of corners, and I understand that, but like, that must be really fucking annoying. You're like, you need me. Well, yeah, they need him, and they're not giving him any resources. You need me, and you're not helping me out here. Now, meanwhile, 29th Annbury Street,

where she was found, turned into kind of a tourist attraction, because the people who lived there decided this was a business venture now, and they started charging people to come through the place where Annie was murdered and found. The past was fucked up, the past was fucked up. And as was common back then, neighbors were charging people to look out their windows that looked over the yard as well.

The past was fucked up a little bit. So the Inquests had brought up a lot of distaste for the way the case was being handled by witnesses and by the press. She was, I wonder why. A witness said during the inquest that when he came upon a police constable when he found Chapman's body, so one of those men that he had grabbed.

John Davis had grabbed. The police constable initially told him he couldn't come. He had to go find someone else. So he was like, we might have found a dead body and he was like, I can't move, I don't know what to tell ya. This fucking police constable said, well, I have orders not to leave my post, no matter what. Apparently some police constables were not beat walkers,

but they just were sitting at a fixed post. That was their job. They couldn't move, but no one was happy with this fucking excuse. They were like, dude, there's a dead body. I know you have orders, but like maybe you can leave your post for that. That's a rock in a hard place. It is a very rock in a very hard place.

I will fully admit that. Yeah. But they were not happy with it. Yeah. And it's hard because on the outside, you don't understand. Yeah. Like, what could happen if he leaves this post, you know? Exactly.

Like, is he leaving his post? Now, that is leaving a post without a police th- And maybe that was Jack's intention all along. What's exactly? to you know? Exactly, like is he leaving his post? Now that is leaving a post without a police ther- And maybe that was Jack's intention all along, which is exactly- A police away from an area, so he could cause more damage. Because I was gonna say the other thing is,

if he left his post and then like, like he might have gotten in trouble for that because Jack could have been walking by after killing her, so I got it. There's a lot of stuff. Yeah, rules. But that along with the like, not giving the corner anything,

they were like, can you... Yeah, you got to get mad at what you can, get mad at and try to understand what you can. Exactly. Now, Annie's brother fountain paid for her funeral. Yeah, probably. But she was buried in a public grave in Manor Park, Cemetery, and Forest Gate, which meant people would be buried on top of her eventually. And her family was not allowed to put a headstone where she was.

So what the ass? Yeah, she will fuck. Yeah, they didn't treat death people in poverty very well. So in 2008, the cemetery where she is buried, I mean, I was going to say they didn't, but like, or any anywhere now, don't treat people in poverty very well. No, still. So in 2008, the cemetery where she is buried put a plaque where she's buried around the area, they don't know for sure exactly the perfect spot.

So sad. But it says this plaque is dedicated to the memory of Annie Chapman died 8th September 1888, a victim of the infamous Jack the Ripper. Her remains are buried within this area. So at least you know the area. Now Sir Charles Warren tried to calm the increasing panic that was starting to seep into white chapels, spittle fields, and beyond with these horrific mutilation murders. And in doing so, he came off looking like an asshole that times for sure. Like September 15th, after two murders so heinous, they couldn't even be printed in full detail in the press,

he dictated a memo to the home office in order to transfer the responsibility of a case into Donald Swanson's hand. Okay. He was like another detective, because with Robert Anderson out, he was like, we have to give this to someone while he's not here, until he gets here, so Donald Swanson was who got it. The memo, he wrote, said, quote, I am convinced that the White Chapel murder case is one which can be successfully grappled with if it is systematically taken in hand. That's fine, sure. Yeah.

I go so far as to say I could myself in a few days unravel the mystery if I could spare the time and give individual attention to it. Fuck off. WOOOOOP! My dude. Also, like, no you couldn't. You didn't. You haven't. You didn't.

Right. You had many days. You did not do it. I could do it, I just didn't. You said it could be solved easily if someone gave a shit and had the time. That's literally what you just said. If someone gave a shit and gave the time to it, they could do it, but I don't. That's the clip. He said, I would just solve it in a few minutes, you know, but I don't have the time.

So I guess you all have to suffer some more by. Also, just like, this isn't a seducu puzzle. This is, these are people. Yeah, these are human beings. You should have stopped at the first part where you said it can, if systematically taken in Yeah, these are human beings. You should have stopped at the first part where you said it can, if systematically taken in hand, it can be solved. That's just hopeful, we love hope.

If you can solve it in a few days, take a few days and solve it, fucker. Right, we'll give you time on. It's a pretty dire situation. If I was on that, I would have been like, okay, Charles, take a few days off, well I'll take over for you. It's cool, you said. What's you do, days? I got it. A few days off. Well, I'll take over for you. It's cool. What's your two days?

I got it. A few days. You mean me cover? Got it. See you back on Friday with Who's Jack the Ripper is. That would be great. Thanks. Like, why would you not?

Like, come on. If we're gonna prevent women being found in the streets with their bowels wrapped around their shoulder, that's not important to you. No. What? So, there was a little more to that memo, which makes it like a little biter, I guess.

I don't know. That first part did not need to be put in there, memo, which makes it like a little bit or I guess, but I don't know. That first part did not need to be put in there, and it made him look like a jackass. Yeah, I think he might have just been a jackass. So the next thing he wrote in the memo was because he was trying to get it all organized now that Robert Anderson wasn't there.

He said, I feel, therefore, the utmost importance be attached to putting the whole central office work in this case in the hands of one man who will have nothing else to concern himself with. So he's saying, I think it's important, attached to putting the whole central office work in this case in the hands of one man who have nothing else to concern himself with. So he's saying, I think it's important we give it to somebody and tell them this is all you're working on. Okay.

Which that makes sense. Why the fuck did you say the other, you don't need to, it was because it was inserting his own fucking self importance and ego into it by saying, I had it, I could do it, but I don't have the time. Shut the fuck up. All you had to do was write that next part, and I would have been like, hell yeah, Charles Warren. Just like, you had to insert that little fucking toxic shit

into it, and I don't appreciate it. I just spit, by the way. Settle fields. Settle fields everywhere. So it says, neither you or I or Mr. Williamson can do this. I therefore, you just said you could, but okay. That's the thing. I therefore put it inson can do this. I therefore, you just said you could, but okay. That's the thing. I therefore put it in the hands of chief inspector Swanson,

who must be acquainted with every detail. I look upon him for the time being as the eyes and ears of the commissioner in this particular case. He must have a room to himself in every paper, every document, every report, every telegram must pass through his hands. He must be consulted on every subject.

I would not send any directions anywhere on the subject of the murder without consulting him. I give him the whole responsibility. All the papers in central office on the subject of the murder must be kept in his room and plans of the positions, etc. I must have this matter at once put on a proper footing so as to be a guide for the future in cases of importance. So he's saying here's what we need to do put Swanson on the case. He's in charge of the of the CID right now. Yeah. He has to be acquainted

with every piece of this case. He's the one working solely on it and we're going to look at this as a blueprint for future cases. This is how we should do it. Okay. Cool. They don't do that though. You know. So with Ron, you know, so at this point, like I said, Anderson is still in Switzerland. He has not come home yet.

Sir Charles Warren had to put the investigation into Donald Swanson's hands. Now locally, he put Inspector Frederick George Aberlin in charge of the air. So he was locally in charge. So again, overall, Swanson, local shit being taken care of on a more micro level by Aberlin. A lot of people think Aberlin was in charge of the entire thing. He's often touted as being in charge of the entire thing. That's not true. He did, however, do a ton of work for it and is synonymous with that for good reason. He really did do a lot. Okay.

He did kind of take over in a way. He tried really hard from the outset to catch this guy. So September 10th, only a couple of days later, a guy named John Pyser was finally found after he had gone on the run after being named a person of interest. You might remember a man named Leather apron that I mentioned in part one. That is him. Finally got him. Timothy Donovan, who managed the lodging house that any Chapman stayed at, told police, he and another witness had actually thrown Pyser out of the lodging house on several

occasions because he had attacked and threatened women. And that they had saw him wearing a deer stalker hat several times, which is what witnesses like Mrs. Long saw the man last seen with Annie Chapman was wearing as well. But you said this guy's a leather worker. He's a leather worker. Now Pyser, when they checked his home,

he had up to five long-bladed knives in his possession in his home on Mulberry Street. Clean or dirty? No, nobody says. I imagine not dirty with blood because they probably would have mentioned that. Yeah, yeah. He was a boot finisher,

so that wasn't completely ridiculous that he would have several knives, but it's still something. He was brought in and everyone went wild over it. They thought Leather A Apron was the guy. Because the media had really put it up there. And they're desperate. In fact, right after he was arrested,

according to Ripper code, the book that I will also, I will also link, what is it called, link in the show now. They were distributing a broad street out in the, a broad sheet out in the streets. That's what I meant. That said, quote, they've captured leather apron now. If guilty, you'll agree. He'll have to meet a murderer's doom

and hang up on a tree. Cute, right? It's a lot. So newspapers branded him the killer. It was bad. They were literally like, here he is. That's him, guys. There's no evidence,

but he's gonna be charged and sentenced in the press. It's like, yeah, he's a shithead. Right. He, there's literally no evidence to say he's the killer at all. This is not okay. Except he has a hat that several other people also have. Now, when you put it that way.

Yeah, a lot of, a lot was made of the fact that he also made hats on the side and that Paulikels had been walking around talking about and showing off her new bomb velvet bonnet. Right. That is a thing, but that's a real fucking circumstantial. She didn't get it. Did she get it that day? She was seen with it in the last day or so. Couple of days. Yeah. So it was new. It was something that they were, you know.

All right. I get it. Because I think she said to somebody, like, do you see my jolly bonnet? Yeah, it's brand new. And it was new. So that was one of the last things. Interesting. Now around the same time, Aberlene brought in a man named William Piggitt

to be questioned. He had blood on his clothing and it was sitting drinking a beer at a pub in Gravesend when the police were called because they were like, the guy's just sitting drinking a beer and he's literally covered in blood. Like his clothes had blood all over them. He was also behaving very strangely and acting very nervous and anxious. Aberlin arrested him and was shocked when he saw him because he said he was struck

by obviously the blood on his clothes, but also by the fact that he had a very close resemblance to a man who witnesses said they heard ranting and raving about hating women in a public house in Whitechapel very shortly after Annie Chapman's murder. Oh! When they got him to the station, he said he had been in Whitechapel, and he said he was on Brick Lane when he saw a woman having a fit, and she fell to the ground. He was obviously a hero when he tried to pick her up, but she bit him, he said, on the hand.

So his response was to slap her in the face and drop her on the ground. Oh, no. And then he said he left, because he saw police coming their way. No one confirmed this. There's no, we don't know who that woman was. If she bit him on the hand, it could have been Annie. It could have been. She was feisty. Now, he had a ton of injuries on his hands

and he was covered in blood, including some which had clearly been attempted to be wiped from his boots. He never explained this. And they never got an explanation for it. They didn't ask him, they did. They did? Who's blood is this? No, they did.

He just never, he wouldn't answer. Oh. And witnesses said he wasn't the guy. Witnesses saw him. He was never picked out of several lineups. Everybody, and when they were brought to him, there was dark. Witnesses were like, that's not him. That's not him at all.

Like, they were very like black and white, that's not him. And the leather worker thing, you know? But he was held a bit to see if they could get someone else to ID him, because they were like, this is weird. Or get him to crack even. But during that time, he got so erratic and he was slaring his words and like was actually freaking out. So they sent for a doctor

and he was actually sent to an asylum shortly after because he was declared legally insane from disemboweling a woman. Well, obviously he didn't do any of the other murders because he was in an asylum when all the other ones happened. But why was he covered in blood? We never know. And why did he use to say it?

We never find out. We never find out. That's the guy's the William Pig. It's just like, bye. See you later. Question. I don't know if this is dumb question. Leather workers, obviously,

we unfortunately get leather from animals. Did they have to like get the skin from the animals themselves or was it provided to them. I actually don't know that. Because then I guess you could have, you're not like, you know? I imagine leather workers probably, it's a symbiotic relationship probably

with the sliding house. The slaughterhouses. And other, you know, that kind of line of work. Maybe, but I do not know. Yeah, I don't know. I'll find out for part three. Cool, thank you. But we'll leave it on Piser. I'll find out for part three. Cool. Thank you.

But we'll leave it on Pyser. John Pyser, Leather Apron there. He was let go pretty quickly because there was literally no evidence and his alibi was confirmed that he had been with family during Aryan Annie Chapman's murder. He had an alibi also saying that he was staying at the Crossman's common lodging house on the night of Nichols murder. Oh. There was a fire by the docks that evening, and he saw it,

and he had spoken to several people that night while it was happening. So he was completely clear to everything, but he was pissed about his name being smeared in the press. He took action and actually sued a bunch of papers for libel, because once you're cleared, you can sue for libel, as I said, you were the guy. He was asked a lot about why he actually went on the run because they were like, well, why'd you go on the run

when you were named a person of interest why when she just come in and say, I didn't do it. You give your alibi. And he said, quote, I will tell you the reason why I should have been torn to pieces. And that's all he would say about it. He was like, I would have been torn to pieces if I came out in the daylight after they named me.

And he was like, it's because you guys named me. Yeah. And if I had come out, people would have been torn to pieces if I came out in the daylight after they'd named me. And he was like, it's because you guys named me. Yeah. And if I'd come out, people would have just... I would have even called that. ...who would have been a mob of people, like taking justice into their own hands. Yeah, that's true. So, he was never charged. He was just arrested, taken in and let go immediately, and they are back to square one.

And very shortly after this, there is going to be what is known as the double event. The double event. The double event. And Robert Anderson is still not gonna be home for it. I mean, you gotta come home. What's our limit is nice, but it's time to wrap it up. Yeah, like, yeah.

What we'll see is he travels to Paris to be closer to the stuff and then he doesn't eventually come home after the government. I'm like, get a Paris buddy. You gotta come down to London. Yeah. He's come home. Doctors, orders, schmockers, orders.

You gotta come back. No, your mental health is important. So it is, but this is pretty big. It is, and it's your job. It's your job, maybe that you gotta like should have been off the pot. Leave for your mental health. I get that order totally.

Yeah, totally. Totally stay and ruin it. Yeah, that's like when this is happening, like a lot of people are counting on the police to get it together here. But yeah, that is the story of Annie Chapman. That one, I mean, they're all horrifically sad, but that one just like from start to finish.

Like, and I feel like a lot of times in these stories too, you get these little glimmers of hope where they kind of start to get it, so you can only like even Paulie went back and stayed with her husband for a little bit and things were okay. Yeah. And then it just went to shit again. Yeah, it's a lot of ebbs, like you said, ebbs and flows of happy sad.

Happy sad. Not even happy, really just like contense sad. All right, contense sad and it's like they're really never gets to happiness anywhere. I don't know if they're really was happiness, like, actually I do know there was no happiness either report. Yeah, those really, which is really fucked up, society is the worst. Yeah, it's pretty rough.

I would work in so much. Next, one, you were gonna talk about the double event, gonna get into that, we'll get into more the police shenanigans. Maybe we'll talk about ghosts some more because why the hell not? And, because if you have have ghosts then you have everything. Exactly.

And we hope that you keep listening. Yeah, please do. There's a lot more to come with this and we hope you keep it. Weird, but not to worry that you forget to say it at the end of your show again. Like I just did because wow, that's really happening a lot lately and I'm concerned for my brains. Health. Bye. Bye. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.