Morbid - Episode 349: Jack the Ripper Part 5

Episode Date: August 8, 2022

YOU HAVE REACHED THE CONCLUSION!!!! Alaina’s final part of Jack the Ripper is here and we are talking all things suspects, confirmation bias, science, mitochondrial DNA and Patricia Cornwell. Do we know who Jack the Ripper is by now? No. Do we know who he isn’t? Sorta. Stay tuned for years to come because Alaina claims one day she will have our answers!!! "SOMEDAY I WILL"- AlainaCheck out these great books on the case:Jack the Ripper and The Case For Scotland Yard's Prime Suspect by Robert HouseThe Complete Jack the Ripper by Donald RumbelowThe Five: The Untold Lives of the Women Killed by Jack the Ripper by Hallie RubenholdThe Hidden Lives of Jack the Ripper's Victims by Robert HumeThe Ripper Code by Thomas ToughillJack the Ripper: Scotland Yard Investigates by Stewart Evans & Donald RumbelowJack the Ripper: The definitive Casebook by Richard Whittington-EaganPortrait of a Killer: Jack the Ripper by Patricia CornwellAn even DEEPER dive into this case:Season 3 of Unobscured with Aaron MahnkeAlso check out these sites on the case:JackTheRipper.orgCasebook: Jack The RipperJack the Ripper TourSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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So the next time you have a home project, just Angie that and start getting the most out of your home. Download the free Angie mobile app today or visit Angie.com. That's ANGI.com. Hey, Weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alena. And this is morbid. This is the Jack the Ripper podcast. Welcome back. Welcome back. Koby had a nice little reprieve. It's over. It's gonna be over today. This is it. This is the last of it. Not for me, but the last of it for you because I have officially become obsessed with this case. I think what? I will not stop.

So, I won't stop rocking to the rhythm. I will not stop. I can't stop. But I'm going to stop shoving in in your face after this one. Hopefully you guys enjoyed it. It seemed like you have, which has been nice to see. So I'm glad that I didn't force all this down your throat and you're like, get the fuck away from it.

No, I really loved it. I do just feel compelled to go, run! Stop! Stop! You just had to. I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna stop after this one, because I need to take a break from it.

But this case is way more fascinating than I gave it credit for. And I saw a couple of people say, which I was like, thank you, I'm on the same page as you. They were like, I was actually bummed when I saw you were doing this, because I just never cared about Jack the Ripper, the case.

Which I understand, like sometimes these kind of cases, where it's like a huge case that everyone knows, and everyone's heard like the general, usually the wrong story, funny enough. But I understand that like, even I was like, oh yeah, it's just one of those that you just like, I'll get, I'll look at that later, you know, like yeah. A lot of people were feeling that and they said that they actually were like, actually, now I'm into it, like hearing it, I'm actually into it, which is cool. Because wow, it's a crazy one. And it'll hook you if you get the right stuff, but hopefully those books that I posted

and all that stuff, all the different sources will get you hooked into it and you can do some research because this is the tip of the iceberg when I've given you here. Yeah. I think there's like, I mean, probably a little bit, we're gonna attend the iceberg.

There's like 67 pages of research that I have that is just really covering as far as I felt I could go for this, but like I could have drawn this out for weeks and weeks and weeks. Easily. And again, there's like definitely check out the unobskuried podcast season three, Aaron Manky's podcast, because he goes into a lot of like the police stuff and all that. And I think it's like a really good way to just like keep it going while getting some more information. So definitely check that out.

But here we are. We're going to talk about a couple of the murders that people have tried to tie to Jackson Ripper. They try to get a lot of people don't want to live in that canonical five place space. They just they really want to take this out. And I think that that is like, I understand. This guy did some gnarly murders. Yes, I believe it's a guy. We are going to talk about whether it's Jill the Ripper.

Don't worry about it. I know that's a theory. We'll talk about it. But I believe personally that this is a man. Okay. And I think, you know, he's, he's a lot. His murders are grisly, his murders are intense. They were like boom, boom, boom. And people want to be like, well, he definitely didn't stop there. He didn't just start with, you know, Pauli Nichols, like, there has

to be more outside of this. There has to be more in between, you know, between Mary Jane Kelly and Catherine Edo's. There was that that period of time where he didn't do anything. Right, but I don't think there is anything outside of this. I think maybe I can buy one more, but I really don't. I don't even know if I Elizabeth Stride, I'm still on the fence about. Do you have any theories about what you think happened to him and why he stopped?

I think he either, I think he might have either died, like, was killed somehow because I think he was probably living some kind of pretty dangerous lifestyle there, kind of everybody was. Or he killed himself when he got to, like, he did, I think, or he might have moved. Okay. And Dunmert is elsewhere. And maybe Dun maybe done murders elsewhere, but I honestly, this is a hard one to figure out exactly where I stand on because it's still so. I think in the last episode I was like, is I know I'm crazy at everybody,

but could it be a fucking demon? Could it be a diamond? And honestly, maybe it is. Maybe it's a demon at the end of this. Imagine. So there were other murders before and one after Mary Jane Kelly. And those are the ones that people are keep trying to shoe horn in here. I'm not sold on most of them. I'm really not sold on any of them.

But I'm going to talk about them here just so you can get an idea of why people want to connect these and the past. And maybe you'll feel like they are. I don't want to like tell you what to think. So there's one and her woman, the woman's name is Alice McKenzie. This was done July 17th, 1889. So this was after. This one to me seems like someone who is just trying to make it look like a Jack the Ripper. And I think that was the problem here. I think a lot of murders after this, like casual murders, which is like horrible to say, but that seems to be something that happened a lot back then. They did try to like emulate,

almost I think to try to throw people off. Throw people off and takes the special away from themselves. According to the Shelton Mallet Journal City of Wells Reporter, which is a newspaper, and the county advisor newspapers from July 1889, on the evening of the murder, Alice McKenzie, who was in her 40s, was found by police constable Andrews in Castle Alley, which was in Whitechapel.

She was killed and left in a dark doorway. In the article, it said that by her dress, she was, quote, assumed to belong to the unfortunate class. And remember, they called this class of people the unfortunate. How nice. No evidence was left behind, but her throat was deeply cut and her stomach was lacerated by a sharp knife.

The article states, quote, the intestines were no way disturbed, just a large laceration. Also, the throat was cut on the side, not an ear-to-ear job like the ripper usually does. She had been living with a man named John McCormick for six years, and he said he never knew her to go out at night. So he's claiming she was not a sex worker. She never went out at night. That evening, they had had an argument, and she had said she was going down to... I think she was going down with payment to pay for lodging.

He was like, he sent her down down and then she never came back up. She like left and he sent she never did that. Okay. So that was weird. He saw her next to identify her body. That's sad. And it's really sad that a lot of these victims, they ended with their partners on a fight.

Yeah. Which is really sad. There wasn't the belief of like, don't leave angry back then apparently. No. It was like, well, there was a lot to be angry about. To be angry about everything. You know, it was to be angry about. I mean, there still is. Now, of course, that sounds similar.

Like, we got the throat laceration. We got the stomach laceration. We got the nothing left behind. But again, not ear to ear. Nothing was really mutilated, just a laceration. And again, this was after mutilated, just elaceration. And again, this was after Mary Jane Kelly's right. So to go from Mary Jane Kelly's full evisceration to this,

unless Kelly isn't a river victim, which I don't believe she's a victim of anyone else. I think she is a jack-to-ripper victim. I stand strongly on that that she's the fifth. It makes sense because there's such an escalation. There is a very clear, clear escalation. I mean, he followed it. It was almost like he mapped it out, right, to be honest.

It just doesn't feel right. And even, I just had a thought. I saw that face like, and I lit a light bulb one off. This might be a crazy question, but do you think that there's any reason why it's five? I always wondered that myself, but I don't even think it is five.

I don't think it is five. Yeah, because I think if Elizabeth, which I am not counting Elizabeth's stride out, I just question her. Okay. But I do think it's possible that he was fully trying to go full of evisceration. And then he got stopped by those people coming into the club.

I think he got scared, he ran away, and that was the double event. So an hour later, he did what he was intending to do. So I wonder if it was supposed to be for. And happened to be five because she just doesn't fit in that pattern of escalation, but I think she was meant to. So if she is a victim. So then five could mean something. So five could mean something or it could have been four.

And maybe four means something. And but you have no idea what it could possibly mean. But I don't know what that could mean. Okay. To be honest, now even after Catherine Edo's murder, this is a weird one to commit a year later. Yeah. Because Catherine Edo's murder was right before Mary Jane Kelly's

and it was very escalated from the other ones. It was like right under. Now, the article also says the police said they received several signed, which is a red flag, letters. So signed by Jack the Ripper, which to be is always a red flag that it is not him. Okay. That's not him.

Saying he was going to start up again in July. Hmm. So they're thinking like, what this lady was killed in July? He said he was going to start up in July. I'm sure they got letters that were like, I'm going to start in August. I'm going to start tomorrow. I'm going to start next week. One of those was going to hit.

And why would you tell the police when you're going to start? Like I don't think he would do that because then police presence is gonna be higher. And unless he's gonna say like I'm starting in July but really starts in June, you know? Exactly, but I don't know, that's weird. And again, he signed them. Yeah.

Every time it signed, I'm about like, count me out. The more I looked into that letter business, the more I was like, no way. Holiness sees a signature in person to SpongeBob on the sofa. I don't know what that, oh, I'm a head out. I do know that letter business the more I was like, no way. Olena sees a signature in turns and just bunched Bob on the sofa. I don't know what that oh, I'm a head out. I don't know that one.

Okay, yep. See, I got it. John loves that one. He does love that one. It's a nama head out moment for me. After I've looked at like a shit ton of psychological profiles of this guy, I don't think that's his deal. Okay.

I really don't. I think the from hell letter is legit. It feels legit to me and it was not signed. I mean, it had a kidney. It had a solid, human kidney, so there's that. When you stick by what's important to your very core, it's going to show in everything that you do. And Everlane is committed to doing the right thing from start to finish. When you stick by what's important to your very core, it's going to show in everything that you do.

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10% off your first order. That's 10% off your first order when you go to Everlane.com slash morbid and sign up. Everlane helping people live their best lives with the least impact on the planet. Now, Dr. Forbes Winslow, who is called an eminent specialist on lunacy cases, was quoted in the article saying he believed the White Chapel murder was, quote, apparently an elusive interval since November 9, which is Mary Jane Kelly's murder. And since that period, he quote, has become, he has probably been unconscious to what he had been doing previously.

And basically, now he's awake and ready to start again. So he's saying you went into some kind of weird hyper-nation period where his brain just shut off and he was like, ooh, I don't, what have I been doing the last year? So like what's been going on? And now he was like, good, good, and it was like warring back on and he was like,

whoop, must murder now. Like, I don't know about that. I don't know about that one. I'm not cute. It then goes in this article from 1889 to include Fairy Fay, another victim I'm about to speak about in the next paragraph, and Alice, in his list of eight victims that they lay at Jack's feet.

So in that article, this doctor said, Ferry Faye, another victim Martha, which I'm going to talk about next, in this Alex McKenzie, are added to the five canonical victims. And he says, all eight of those victims are Jack the Reaper victims. That is it. I don't agree. Okay. Adel. Now because of this murder, the Devon Evening Express reported that police were doing quotes special murder beats because they believed he was absolutely back in action. Like the police were like, he's back. Here we go. I'm more willing to accept Alex, Alice McKenzie, and I'm not even willing to accept her,

than I am the next one that seems to be the case that a lot of people want to associate with the Ripper. This next one, Martha Tabrum, is in a lot of people's like, I'm adding her to the canonical five. I would more say Alice is part of the canonical five and I don't even agree with that. So that's Alice. I don't think she's part of the canonical five, and I don't even agree with that. So that's Alice.

I don't think she's part of anything. Seems like it would be real weird for him to go from Catherine Edo's Mary Jane Kelly, like a major, yes. Fly Max Magnum Opus of Bullshit, then take a dive into like going back to the beginning. Right. And if he was gonna do that,

then where was the escalation back up? Yeah. And then another one, I would think if he was going to do that, which would be strange if he was just going to go on waves, then I would expect another escalation past that. And I'm sorry, where was Alice found? Alice was found in Whitechapel, which you would, I don't know, I'm just kind of shit ton of murders in Whitechap. I mean, there's always that.

And in my opinion, I would think that if he was going to de-escalate for any reason, he would go elsewhere and start the terror of like, you know, let me start slow and really build up like I did in White Chapples. Exactly, right? That seems likely. And it's like even though White Chapples

is like an easy place to get victims kind of because of the desperation and people are in the streets at all hours a night and you can kind of weasel your way into these people's lives a little more. There were other places like you said that he could do this and it would like you were saying make a little sense for someone this you know twist to be like okay let's start out of Polly Nichols level right and then ramp ourselves up to Emerging Kelly go down, head off somewhere else, do this whole thing again and see how many times I can cause mass pandemonium. Exactly. And

it, because that's what he loved about the same thing is the mass pandemonium. I feel like he really liked that fear that he was spreading. I think he liked that more than anything, to be honest. I think it was like that fear. And yeah, it just, and there was no escalation for this one. No clear escalation of anything. So the next one is the Martha Tabrum case. She was also known as Martha Turner, or Emma Turner. She had a lot of aliases. She was around 40 years old, was married with two sons.

She had worked as a sex worker for a while in White Chapel. And remember Alex, Alex, sorry, Alice McKenzie was also in her 40s, so they did fit the victim profile for sure. Even though we have Mary Jane Kelly down at 25 years old, she was kind of the outlier there. So Martha Taberm was 40 years old. She was murdered August 7, 1888, So she was before the Mary Jane Kelly. She was before the cathartines of it all.

And she was found killed around 3 a.m. on a landing leading to the George Yard buildings in the same kind of area in White Chapel. She had been stabbed 39 times. The issue I have with this one is the lack of mutilation. There is no mutilation, like no mutilation, Jack the Ripper, right, or mutilation. He doesn't stab. And the fact that evidence suggested

that this was either done by a sharp knife or a bayonet. And they were thinking that it was likely more a bayonet. Jesus. And according to the Times from 1888, quote, there was one large wound over her heart while several other injuries of the nature of stabs were on her body. The injuries on the deceased are, it is stated, not unlike Bayonet wounds.

A doctor who was called to the scene also said he believed all wounds were done while she was alive. So we're already deviating from Jack's ammo. He wouldn't do that. He cut the windpipe. Usually they were already dead or dying and he started doing his thing. And he wasn't really stabbing them. He was racing them and ripping them. He was ripping them. Unfortunately. And this doctor also said he

believed there could have been multiple weapons used on Martha. Interestingly, she was seen along with another sex worker friend of hers with two soldiers earlier in the evening, the bandits. They were actually both found and arrested, but the other sex worker she had been with wouldn't identify them, so they were released. And who knows if that was out of fear or just like, people really cling to this one because of who she was and also because of some of the stab wounds were to sexual organs in genitalia,

which obviously is ripper-esque. But how they were all the time is for those two. Right. But honestly, people treated sex workers like shit. So, exactly. As unique as it unfortunately sounds, this was kind of unfortunately the norm there. I don't think she is a ripper victim.

She would be the entire, she would be the first victim of the entire series. And for him to go from using a likely bayonet and stabbing someone 39 times to then go to polynicles. And then immediately start a consistent pattern of slitting the throats to kill and silence them Would be a real weird twisty-turny road to take for him right because it's not like it was everywhere if it was everywhere Randomness can be a pattern in and of itself

But that's not what he was in random. He was very consistent So like to go from random to consistent then random again. This doesn't make any sense to me So, to go from random to consistent than random again, just doesn't make any sense to me. Now, there's another one that happened after Mary Jane Kelly as well that is placed in as a possible Ripper murder. Her name was Frances Cole. She was 25 years old, so the same as Mary Jane Kelly, which I'm already a little like, I don't know.

Because I really think that Mary Jane Kelly was simply a victim because of the fact that he could do it. In fact, yeah. I think he just took an opportunity there. So she was working as a sex worker. It was February 13th, 1891. So it was a much after Mary Jane Kelly. And she was found around 2.15 a.m. in a railway underpass called Swallow Gardens.

Police constable Ernest Thompson had apparently been walking his beat. He heard some footsteps. He followed those footsteps sounds to find her with a deep cut to her throat, and he thought he saw her eye move a bit so he thought she could have been alive still. When it was looked into further, she was well known to be on the streets since she was about 17 years old. And in the days leading up to the murder, she had been in a legendary pub crawl for two days straight, with a man named Thomas Sadler. They had been drinking all day and all night for two days. They were celebrating? No! According to Jack the Ripper in the case for Scotland Yards Prime

Suspect, which I link in the show notes. Sadler was a client and he described their relationship as, quote, I used her for my purpose. Wow. That's what he was clear to say. Yeah. Fuck right off with that. Yeah. Now, interesting during their wildsbender, he got, he happened to get robbed and beaten by some random men.

Like these women came up behind him and like kind of like distracted him and then these men robbed him and beat the shut up. And it was during their bender. So he immediately blamed Francis Cole and said she must have set this up. But she was like on a space level. Like she was not with it. She was like, so she was like,

I did not set this up. I can't even talk. No. So they got in a fight and they parted ways the same night she was killed around 11.30 pm. So they ended things on a bad note. Now he got in trouble at the docks after this. He was super drunk.

He was trying to fight people. Can't do in that. Yeah, and he wandered around getting, like without getting lodging, because he didn't have any money. He was robbed. And then he went to the Spittelfields chambers and found Francis Cole again passed out in the kitchen there.

They just passed out on a table. And he got kicked out for not having money. And then around 1am, she was also kicked out. And he said he never saw her again according to police records. He saw her in the kitchen. See you later. We got kicked out by... Hmm.

He lied. He got caught lying a ton. Oh, he had seen coal after the kitchen because he then admitted that they had something to eat at shuttle worth around 130 AM. Lire, so he was lying. So besides lying about that, he also said he went to the hospital that night, because he said he had to be

treated after being robbed several times, because he also said he was robbed at the docks. Oh my god. But he never went to the hospital. He wasn't treated at the hospital. What? He was found by a police constable passed out around 2 a.m. near the Royal Mint and was arrested.

Why are you always lying? Why are you lying? When he said... When he was arrested, he said, I expected this. Mhmm. Uh, uh, uh. What now? That's my reaction. Weirdly, only a few hundred yards. when he was arrested he said I expected this. What now? That's my reaction.

Weirdly, only a few hundred yards from where he was was the place where Cole would be found murdered at two, 15, 15 minutes later. So what you're saying is he was responsible. Like, also like he had a motive. He thought she was involved in the robbery. Exactly, revenge. Right.

Now, given all of these, like we, so that one I believe was pretty clear. Yeah, definitely. Like to me, John Sadler is the guy. He's at least a great suspect. I don't think that that coal was part of the canonical five. I don't believe that Martha Tabrum was part of the canonical five. I think those two soldiers are suspect. I think there was probably other things with that. And then Alice, I also don't really think was it?

Nobody that you have said so far in this episode. Yeah. And that's sad too, because then I mean, at least for the last one where like he definitely did it, but then it's like, who killed them? I was just just not served there. This happens so much, Justice wasn't, I mean, people didn't even look. It wasn't. And people wouldn't even look most of the time, right?

It was one of those like, well, what other ones? I mean, think about it in the middle of the night during the Mary Jane Kelly murders. Two people heard, oh, murder, yelled by a woman in the middle of the night, and they were like, happens all the time. And they said they listened for a second, they didn't hear another one,

so they were like, well, all right, good night. You didn't hear another one because her throat had been cut, like my goodness. Now, I'm going to go over some suspects. I don't find all of these compelling, but I find them at least interesting. Okay. I'm not, I'm sure that I'm not going to get everyone's favorite suspect on here. There have been over 200 suspects that have been like put forth over the years. There's like a pretty

big chunk that are like the one that a lot of people go to. I kind of narrowed that down even further because I didn't want to keep you here for like 18 hours. Thanks. I'm sure this won't be the last time I touch upon Jack the River on this podcast. No, I know it's not going to be the last time I touch upon Jack the River on this podcast. Like we, we will talk about this again at some point in some other way. So don't worry. Probably other cases that will relate.

And if you didn't hear your favorite one here, you're probably going to hear it at some other point. Okay. So these are just mine. So this is just how I feel. So we're going to start with the McNaughton papers before we get into the suspects. The McNaughton papers were the name for what is actually more like one cheat. It's like really not papers.

It is one cheat. It's like really not papers. It is one paper. There are so Sermelville, MacKnotten became assistant chief constable of Scotland yard in 1889. So right after the House. Because of what's his face left. Because all that shenanigans. Now in complete Jack the Ripper by Donald Rumble, which I really loved that book. So I really think you should go get that book. I just thought it was great. He reproduced a copy of these notes for the first time in that book. In these, he points to three suspects. I'll go over them in one second, but he also only attributed the canonical five victims to Jack the Ripper.

So he also believed only those five. He said Elizabeth Stride was indeed a victim of the Ripper, but was interrupted when people arrived at the club that night, and I really think I agree with him. He also pointed out that his brutality increased each time, like very clearly, in that the last one was so brutal that he was likely driven insane and killed himself or was committed. That's what he believes. Oh, wow. Because he said that was so brutal and over the top.

No one was walking out of there and just living their lives after that. Okay. I don't know if I believe that one. I see it. I understand it. But people do horrible things all the time and go to other people.

And because they can, because they're not you and me, who would be affected by that. Exactly. And I think this was more him looking at it and being like, that was so gnarly that he had to have been committed after that. He had to have been driven. People also thought driven and sane was like a very casual and very like, well, he must have been driven mad. And

it's like, not everybody's just driven mad by things. I don't think he was already mad to begin with that other thing. I don't think he was out of control ever. And I don't think he was already mad to begin with that other thing. I don't think he was out of control ever. And I don't think he was at a control after. To be quite honest, I think he just reached his pinnacle and that was it. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background You have heard me talk about how much I love native. The thoughtful formulation behind all their products is something that I've always loved, because they understand that it's not actually what's on the inside that counts, but on the outside too. That's why native is releasing their deodorant that I know and love in new and improved

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Do you have a particular suspect that you think is Jack the Ripper? I don't have anyone in here that I can say for certain is Jack the Ripper. OK. I'm still very like, oh, I don't know. All right. And I feel like I almost need to do more reading

and more craziness. I feel like I need to go over to London and say, I need help. I'm blinking. That's right. Because now I need, I need. In fact, when I do come up with my suspect, it's gonna be on some future episode

that has absolutely nothing to do with Jack the Ripper. I'm going to tell you in the beginning of the episode who I think it is. When I know it, I will shout it from the rooftops. Okay. And it will have nothing to do in the episode. I'll just say, by the way, I figured it out in like two years, Elaine is gonna be like,

I figured it out! Sorry, I think I broke your piece. I was gonna say now that Ash has busted your ear drums. Oopsie. The first one that he names is somebody that he refers to as MJ Druid. What we now know is Montague John Druid. Montague. He came from a line of medical men.

He himself was a successful barrister, so he studied law. He would have been about 41 years old at the time of the murders. He had a dark mustache, he had dark hair. He came from a prosperous family, so he dressed well. He was described as a sportsman who had strength in his upper body and arms. He was also unable to be located around the time of Mary Jane Kelly's murders, and he killed himself in December 1888. Oh, very shortly after. He did this by throwing himself into the Tim's river with pockets full of rocks. Oh, damn, that's one way to go.

Yeah. Now Macnotton really thought this was the guy, but like, I don't. Why don't you see this one at all? Okay, he was pretty thin. When you look at him, he's like a thin lean guy. And most witnesses described whoever they saw with the last victims. They described him always across the board as medium build at least. There was never a thin man among them. Also, he was a lawyer. Yeah. And yeah, it doesn't really, I mean, he'd came from a line of medical men. Sure. So he had that in his blood. He was probably around it.

I'm sure he had a learned a thing or two. I mean, I like come from you essentially and like, I'm not an autopsy technician. That's true. But back then, it was like a little different because it's like, you would go into the trade really young and if you didn't stay in it, maybe he went to law after that.

Okay. All right. So no one really, again, like there just isn't anything I could find about him being connected to White Chappell in a way that is significant or a way that would make him angry at these women or something even close to that.

Like there's just no significance with White Chappell here or connection to it. It's simply just that like he couldn't be accounted for and then he killed him. He just like couldn't be accounted for. He had a lot of, there was mental illness in his family which I think a lot of people wanna like, I don't know what it is about this case.

Maybe it's because the police initially like always demonized people with mental illness. So they were like really intense about like, let's check these silos. This has to be an escaped inmate from an asylum and it's like, what about this? Yeah. Very calculated series of murder says to you

like somebody who's unhinged to the point of like, not planning any of this. Like, this seems planned out to me personally. So to me, it's like, he was, he just doesn't fit it for me. It absolutely is planned out too when you think about the dates even. Exactly.

He even planned that last one to be coincided with Lord Mayor's Day. Right. So that all the police officers are going to mean one side of town and he's going and doing it over here. Planned for sure. Yeah. Now, and he even skipped a couple of weeks,

a few weeks in there, and skipped his regular pattern of dates to me and my opinion, to wait for that next one, which was going to work perfectly for you. I agree with that, for sure. That's what makes sense to me. I don't think it was like,

oh, you just randomly deviated from that. Yes, set path, I think you're exactly right. Yeah, I think you waited for it. Right. Now, the next one is Michael Ostrog. He was a Russian doctor. He was also a convict in the McNaughton papers. This is like, quote,

who was subsequently detained in a lunatic asylum as a homicidal maniac. This man's antecedents were of the worst possible type and his whereabouts at the time of the murders could never be ascertained. I'm going to have to disagree with McNaughton for even entertaining this one. Why is that?

He was not violent. He was at least not recorded to be violent at any moment in his life. Huh, he was just a thief. Why did they think he was a homicidal maniac? McNaughton got a few details wrong. Oh. And there's a few times where you're like, no, that's not true at all.

Whoa. But like, all right, it's like, but then you look back at these records, a lot of these police officers got a lot of details around the time. I'm sure it was a lot of like, I want to be the one to solve. Of course, and it was your own confirmation

by a kind of situation going on. But I know this one doesn't, he's a thief. He's definitely a thief, but that's it. Yeah, thieves, not necessarily the same person that killed Mary Jane Austen. No, and this was the same kind of thing where the police wanted to believe so badly that this was someone from an asylum,

and that it was just someone who was mentally unstable, and they escaped, and decided to perpetrate the most cunning, quick, and diabolical series of Beutalization murders ever recorded. Yeah. Seems not legit at all. Yeah. This one just said, you can't really place him there.

There's just nothing. You can look at him be like he was a doctor, he's Russian. He, I guess he did some bad stuff, but like not really. Yeah. He just doesn't really fit at all. Yeah, not at all. Now the next one who is not in the McNaughton papers, but this is the next suspect that I see on a lot of lists.

Mm-hmm. Joseph Barnett. Okay. Sounds familiar. I was gonna say that does. We remember Joseph as Mary Jane Kelly's guy for a while. Yeah. Yeah. It seems while I was reading, it seems like he really loved her. And I think we were both saying that,

that he really loved her. They just weren't right for each other. It just wasn't working. And he wasn't the one that was like crazy abusive, right? No, he was the one that he was very chained to. He was very chained to. He was the last one that she dated. He was the one that didn't want her to be a sex worker.

He wanted to provide for her. He was the one that we were loving on last time. We were loving on him. Because we're like, he at least is attempting to be a solid stand-up guy. Right. For one of these women, he's a line of attempting. Now, this is me basing it off their lives and the limited amount we can gather from records

and witness statements, but I could not find anything that said that he was a bad guy or that he was abusive or that they were anything other than like a couple that actually did care for each other, but it just was tough. Like I said, he was not happy with her being a sex worker, and in fact, he was obsessed with the idea of being able to provide financially for her to make her stop. He did not want her on the street. It always feels like he had good intentions to me. That was, he really just didn't want her doing that. Yeah, because I mean, that's just didn't want her doing that.

Yeah, because I mean, that's a very dangerous job for somebody that you love, especially back then. Exactly, and the theory goes that maybe this love was what led him to murder. No, I don't think so. So Bruce Pally, who wrote Jack the Ripper, the simple truth, said he believed maybe Barnett was so obsessed with the idea of getting Mary Jane Kelly off the streets that he began murdering other sex workers to scare the shit out of her and

keep her off the streets. That would be a wild length to go to. Well, then when their final fight led to their separation and he found out she was still on the street, he killed her in a jealous rage. I feel like they just want to say that he was like somebody was in a rage because of the way that she was murdered. Yeah. I, he does resemble the Jack the Ripper that witnessed statements described, medium-billed, dark hair, dark mustache, fair complexion, but like

that described about a zillion other men in the area at the time. So like any of these guys, they probably all had moustaches. It's really not. There's also the strange thing where the door was locked when they found Mary Jane Kelly, but they had lost the key and it started using the broken window that they broke when they fought to lock it when they would leave.

So who knew how to do that? It's a fernat. Yeah. That's an interesting little tidbit. Somebody could have ascertained that maybe. she could have even said that walking in there. She could have, and it's like, but still, that is a weird little thing. Well, actually, now that I think about it, like she would have reached in the window to open the door to let whoever in. So maybe they saw that, and maybe they saw it.

And that's the thing that we kind of laid on last time when we mentioned this was like oh that person could have just seen her do it. Right. And again they could have just ascertained it from like seeing the broken window you know context clues like she could even if they hadn't seen her do that she could have mentioned it. And yeah there's a lot that could have they could have said why is that window broken and she could have been like well well well well because this is how we do this. Exactly. And that's the thing. So when you, and this is what we find in a lot of these cases

with Jack the Ripper and like the suspects and theories, you go down a path and you're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, but then you fight again, and then you're like, but then all of these things kind of take that away. So it's like it's easy to put it in with other things and be like, oh my goodness, what a great suspect. But then you're like, smoking gun.

But then all of these other things that don't make any sense. Yeah. Now, it seems, so it's important to note that. So the other thing that I want to mention, and of course I'm doing this in episode five, I was referring to Inspector Aberlene. A lot of people said it's Inspector Aberline. You are probably correct, but here's the reason

that I said Aberlin, I just want to put it out there. I had a criminal justice professor that referred to him as Inspector Aberlin. Yeah. For like the entire year that we talked about Jack the Ripper. So that's what you were talking about. So it is so burned in my memory as Aberlin, because I heard it like a thousand Zillion times.

Yeah. So if I said it wrong, I apologize. That's just like my brain says it that way. Even his brother. But I think that's just like what I always heard it as, but you know, whatever. I mean, it was 1888. So like no one can actually get hurt. So no one was there. So you know, but if it is Aberline, that's just me like, that's what I heard forever. So it's important to know that Paul, that Aberline, cleared him after a four hour interview with him. And I respect Inspector Aberline, Aberline, and I respect him. Inspector A.

I, good call. I thought you. I, and I respect him. I think that he did good work in this case. And I think if he cleared him after a four hour interview, I feel safe to say that he's probably not the guy. Agreed. Four hours is a long time.

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Go to simplysafe.com slash morbid. Uh. assemblysafe.com slash morbid. So let's move on to James Kelly. Let us. James Kelly is not related to Mary Jane Kelly. Just putting that out there. He actually murdered his own wife, Sarah Breider, in 1883, so before these. In what manner?

By stabbing her in the neck. OK. He was convicted, but they believed he was insane. So he was sentenced to broadmore asylum where he stayed up until 1888. Oh, and in 1888, he escaped. Oh. Now that would line up really well with those police assertions

that this isn't escaped asylum inmate. It would. Now in 1927, so he lived until 1927, or past 1927, and he actually turned, he waited from 1888 to 1927, nothing. And then he turned himself in in 1927 into Broadmoor, saying like, I escaped. Like, he turned himself in for escaping,

like, however, he was prior. Almost 30 years prior. And then he was dead by 19, like, however, almost 30 years prior. And then he was dead by 1929, so only a couple of years later. Interestingly, this is just like an interesting tidbit. He grew up thinking his grandmother was his mother, Aula Bundy, but he found out later she was not in his sister with his mother, that whole thing.

Same thing. He was a furniture, a poster, which required skilled use of a sharp knife. OK. He was slowly losing his grip on reality after he found out all the stuff with his family. He had a hatred of women and really

didn't like the idea of women having any kind of power or any kind of authority. What a dick. When he married Sarah, he was increasingly violent with her. And when he contracted a venereal disease He blamed her and basically said you must be a sex worker Because you must have fucked some other man and given me this illness so it to stay in for sex workers So he would lash out on her a ton and then immediately apologize after becoming very violent

He would suddenly turn into like oh shit classic abuser But one of these times he attacked her when she wouldn't immediately just forgive him after the lash out. And he also threw during this whole thing he threw her mother across the room. Jesus. Yeah, when she tried to intervene. And when he turned himself in in 1929,

he said he had quote, been on the warpath since I left Broadmore. And he left Broadmore in 1888. Medical knowledge? Not that I could find. He was a furniture or a poster. I don't know. I stay. I'm wrong. There's a lot of researchers who will say they don't believe that the Ripper had any medical knowledge. I'm not on that side. And I respect to that side. You can have that feeling and I'm sure you have shit to back it up. Of course, yeah. This is just where I sit, is I believe he had medical knowledge and that's just me. I just would think, and based off of your actual medical knowledge,

and like just the breakdowns of everything, especially like the very detailed breakdown, either last episode or the one before. Yeah, that's a rough one. I just feel like he had to have. Yeah, that I feel that everything happened to. So cleanly. Yeah, to do everything. To do everything so cleanly. Yeah, and just quickly, quickly, cleanly, there was, I feel like there was like purpose to all of it. I don't feel like it was willy-nilly. And that's one of the other biggest things like you just said, quickly.

The purpose. Yeah, quickly. Mm-hmm. That's exactly it. Quickly and properly. I think this guy was a shithead. I think he's a murderer. I think he is a misogynistic piece of shit and an abuser. But I don't think he's Jack the Ripper.

I don't either. Yeah, I just don't. I don't see it. I think that was like him being a piece of shit. I don't think it was him being Jack the Ripper. Now the next one is George Chapman. Okay. Who is actually that was the name he gave himself.

His real name is Severin Antoniavic Klozowski. Okay, but then he was like, my name is George now. He was like, it was a little bit long, so I'm thinking, George, why not, George? Now, he was a doctor in Poland, and then moved, there it is. And then he moved to the East End in London in 1887 or 1888. And he was employed as a hairdresser's assistant

at a barber slash surgeon's shop. Because remember back then, barbers and surgeons were one in the same. Wild. And he was in white chapel. Interesting. Now he was also a serial poisoner. He had murdered three mistresses in his life.

Mary Isabella Spink, he did that in 1897. His second, he then, it was Bessie Taylor in 1901, and then Maude Marsh in 1902. Love the name Maude. So obviously those are after all the Ripper murders, but he was known to be violent towards women. He was a known wife abuser. In 1891, he had moved to, and this was

again after the Ripper murders, but it's just showcasing who he is. He had moved to New Jersey after the Ripper murders, right? So across the pond, with his then wife, Lucy. He had only married her because she got pregnant. She was pregnant, and people at the shop he opened in New Jersey testified that they witnessed him abuse her regularly. In fact, one day it was so bad that he had pinned her down to a bed while pregnant in the back of the barber shop and he only stopped when a customer walked in and interrupted them. And later she said, what were you going to do if that person walked in? Are you kidding me? And he told her the only reason that you are safe and that nothing happened to you,

he's like is because that person walked in and he said if they didn't walk in, I was gonna cut your head off. Oh, yeah. He then told her, because she said, well what would the neighbors say if I wasn't here anymore? And he was like, I would just tell them

that you moved back home. Like you immediately was like, what, that's not hard. He's like, I figured this out. Yeah. So, yeah. So, she moved back to London after that, blame her. And he was eventually hanged for the murders of those three women. But interesting that he poisoned them, like, that's why I don't believe he's the guy.

Because why would you go from poisoning to slitting people's throats and cutting them open and stealing their kidneys. Well, it would have gone the other way around You would have gone first to that and then you would have ended on poisoning No way, especially after Mary Jane Kelly, then you just start poisoning people. Yeah, no I don't think so for me. It's that's too much of a slow burn for him He's a quick guy. He wants to results and I think he got, do you think he got a sexual thrill out of murdering? I think that is thrill. I, that, I don't think he was there for, for the thrill.

I don't think he, I think he was there for the thrill, but I don't think he was necessarily like, get enough while this was happening. You know what I mean? That's like crude as that is. Sexually, but I think he was like, like enough while this was happening. You know what I mean? That's like crude as that is. Sexually, but I think he was like, like I couldn't see, I don't think he raped those women. Like they said, like they didn't really find anything,

but I mean, how would you? I just don't feel like he raped that woman. The components of these crimes are more anger. Yeah. And like sexually sadistic. If anything, I don't think like maybe later, maybe that's why he took those things back wherever he went. Maybe that's what he got off on. Was that like trophies he took?

Okay. I don't think he did it at the scene. Yeah, I really don't because I don't think one, I don't think he had time and two. I think he, and this is me again, totally basing it off of my own research. I think he was like, I'm a thotical. That's my own research. I think he was like, methodical. That's the thing. And I think he was methodical and was singular focused when he was doing the murders, get it done, get what I came here to do, leave.

And then afterwards, he could take a moment and probably think about it. And that's when you got the thrills of sending the letter with the kidney, maybe looking out a window and seeing people scared, maybe walking down the street, brushing by people and hearing them get nervous about it. But that's going to be a totally separate thrill. I hate to put it that way.

No, it's true. Then poisoning. Yeah, that's the thing. And it's like, and it's so, I mean, so far removed. It's very remote. Versus, yeah. Very hands-on. Exactly.

Those are two totally separate methods and two totally separate pathologies, in my opinion. And two totally separate modus operandas. Exactly. I love saying that. There you go, methodologies. Boom. So I, you know what, he's a shithead.

Like George Chapman is actually a shithead. Yeah. All of these men are so far. But like, I don't think he's Jack the Ripper. Nah. Now, the next one we have is an interesting one. I saw a couple of people ask about it. Jill the Ripper. No.

If Jack the Ripper was actually a woman. Not a chance. Of course, this idea needs to be entertained because women can do fucking foul things. We've all seen it. I've seen it. I mean, look at Catherine Knight. Look at tons of other women like this. That's just the first one that came to mind. Ooh, somebody I'm working on right now.

There's plenty of women that have done terrible fucking thing. I mean, yeah. So we got to look at Jill the Ripper, also referred to as the mad midwife. Because this always goes back to midwifeery which immediately makes me go Nope, none of these women were confirmed to be pregnant. Why would they be seeing a midwife? No, it's just like that's not Well most of them were in their 40s as well, which is like back then I don't really think many women in their 40s were having children. No, and it's just it's just no it's a no for me

But I'll go into it, cause why not? So Caroline Maxwell was a witness in the Mary Jane Kelly case, but she was kind of disregarded because she claimed to see Mary Jane Kelly when she was likely already dead. And she held real firm to her witness statement, like I know, I saw her, I talked to her. She was adamant that she saw her speaking to a man

at 8 a.m. November 9th. And that's a no. She even said she had a conversation with her, according to Jack the Ripper Scotland yard investigates. This was the conversation she claimed occurred. She said, what brings you up so early to marry Jane Kelly? And Kelly said, I have the horrors of drink upon me as I have been drinking for some days past. And then Maxwell said, why don't you go to Mrs. Ringers and have a half pint of beer? And Kelly said, I've been there and had it, but I've brought it all up again. Then she pointed to some vomit on the street in front of her. So she's like, yeah, I did that and then I puked right here. Yeah. So she then said she left to run some errands, and then she saw Kelly again at 9am in front

of the Britannia pub, speaking to a man in his thirties who was medium heightened build. So the Jill the Ripper theory ties to say that possibly this woman who murdered Mary Jane Kelly was wearing her clothing, and this is who Maxwell saw that morning, because she described her clothing, and it was very much like Mary Jane Kelly. So that would be wild because they spoke face to face. And she also look exactly like Mary Jane Kelly. And here's the part of the theory, is that this Caroline Maxwell said she knew Mary Jane Kelly,

but only for like three months, who knows how often she saw her. She is dark back then. Who knows if she's only seen her at night, and she's like, hey girl, what's up? I wonder if this happened another day. Yeah, and she just fucked days up. Thank you, that's what a lot of people think.

Yeah. She really held fast to this, but everybody was like, okay Caroline, like everybody was just kind of like, I don't think you got that right. Right. They also think maybe she was just talking to another woman. Yeah. Just not necessarily a woman who murdered Mary Jane Kelly.

This could have just been, she didn't say like, hey, Mary Jane. Right. What's going on? Like she was just like, hey, hey. Right. What brings you out so early and she's like, I've been drinking all night and she's like,

vomit, you know? Yeah, she also could have said, hey, Mary Jane. They got a fucking answer. It's a common ass name. I was gonna say someone would have turned around. Right. So it's like, this makes a lot of sense that like, sure, maybe she saw that.

Maybe she talked to that lady. I don't think that was Mary Jane Kelly. No. So this goes with the theory that the river was a midwife. After all, a midwife would have anatomical knowledge and access to the trust of many women. That is true. It would not be weird if a midwife walked around covered in blood. Gross.

And I read that at the time, midwives used to use this pressure point thing to put women out in labor to decrease the pain. So they would do it. So like they would literally like knock them out just by pressing on their neck somewhere. So what if this bitch is walking around using this quick pressure point method to knock women out before they even scream and then uses her knowledge and tools to get to work? All right.

Quick, quick, quick, maybe. And no one's gonna think it, but it doesn't really make sense to be honest. There were always rumors that Mary Jane Kelly was pregnant, but I think that was because she was 25 years old and they were like, I bet she was pregnant. Like, there was really no reason for this. It's just rumor.

There was absolutely no proof of that. Right. Of course, it would be very difficult to ascertain from her remains, but her uterus was there. Nobody could say she was pregnant. And nobody, no witness said she was pregnant. Nobody who knew her said she was pregnant

just became this thing. The other thing is, if somebody comes up behind you and puts their finger behind your ear at that pressure point, you're gonna turn around and like slap them. Of course, you're gonna be like, what the fuck, right? And it takes a minute, too. Exactly.

Now, also none of the other victims were said to be pregnant. No, a lot of them had their uterus still. So it's like you would be able to tell. So why would a midwife really be all up in their business? Of course, midwives did a ton of shit back then, but I think the main theory of this one is pregnancy midwife. You know what I mean?

They really hammer on that part of it. And it's like no one around these women said they were even seeing a midwife ever. Like there was just no. I also feel like a midwife would have used a different cut. Yeah, like they wouldn't do that why shaped incision. They would do maybe like how they delivered them.

Well, I don't know, was there serians back then? I honestly don't know, maybe we should look it up. Yeah, we should. Yeah, let's look it up now. All right, cool. Cause I think they would use that cut if they were going to. I would assume there was a serians.

But you're right, I don't know how exactly it was done. Let's look. Go off on your knowledge. So we looked it up. And the first ever, ever successful cesarean in the British Empire was conducted by a woman. Huh. And it was done sometime between 1815 and 1821. Also, there's like, it says C-sections can date back to ancient Roman times. Like a four-seaser, right? Right. And also, that when you look up any of the old anatomical models and figures of cesarean sections, it is a vertical cut. Which is, that actually ended up giving credence to that.

Which I knew a vertical cut was done not that long ago, so it actually does kind of make sense. Oh, I didn't realize that. Yeah, that was like a newer thing that it's like hip to hip. Yeah, it was like that's gnarly. A lot of C-sections. Anybody that's had one, you're a bad ass motherfucker. Thank you.

You're welcome. She's had two. I have had two, but it was not vertical. I can tell you that much, but that kind of does give a little bit of like, hmm, it looks a little bit of. Just something to make you scratch your little noggin. Exactly. I'm not convinced, but here I am. But interested. Interesting.

Now, another interesting thing about the Jill the Reaper thing was that a woman was actually thought later to be like, hmm, maybe this person could have been that bad guy. It was Mary Pearsie. Could have been that that guy. It was Mary Piercy. Now you may recognize that ash and you may recognize it if you came to our gilded Gore virtual show that we did up at Black Vale. Was it Mary Piercy? Mary Piercy. I covered her for that show and she actually, she's named as a possible Jill the Ripper.

It's kind of a stretch for me, but I get it. I get where it comes from. Her story in a nutshell is that she killed the wife, whose name was Phoebe Hogg, of the guy she was having a affair with. She did it brutally, and I understand that people would see that and think she was capable of the Ripper murders,

because honestly, she probably was capable of it. She killed the baby too, right? She killed an 18 month old baby. She had crushed Phoebe Skull and had slit her throat so deeply that she had almost decapitated her and did sever the vertebrae. So Phoebe had deep lacerations on her hands and torso. The paper actually referred to the wounds

as having been done in, quote, excess of hellish rage. Mm. But she then moved her victims and dumped them elsewhere, because she didn't in a house, moved them out of the house, rippered it in the scene, left the victims there. It doesn't really fit for me. She also did that very personal murder, because there was a very reason, like she had a very much a reason for it,

in 1890, after the ripp murders. I don't think so. So she started, you're telling me she started with sex workers and ended up on a very personal murder? No. That doesn't make sense to me. And one that got her caught and hanged pretty quickly. Yeah. Like she got away with all the Ripper murders

and then just happened to like lose her shit on this one. Don't take so. Like when they found the blood covered kitchen where she had brutally murdered her victim, they were like, look at all this blood. Like, what is this about? And she was like, oh, I was trying to kill mice. Yeah, that's why it's so bloody. And you're like, that's why there's blood on the ceiling.

And she's like, hell yeah. She's like, there's a lot of mice, man. Like, come on. That's not Jack's ribber. Sure is. I don't believe this one doesn't feel right. I get it. And I'm not gonna tell you

that it's absolutely 100% false. It's not for me though. I'm gonna need more evidence for that one. That brings us to Walter Sickert. I know this name. Now, you may know this name. He's a famous artist, first of all. But see the second of all, you may have read about him

in Portrait of a Killer Jack the Ripper Case closed by Patricia Cornwell. Sure did, brother, at your recommendation. I love Patricia Cornwell. I was in high school and you said, read this book. I was like, read this, but you felt strong about that book. I've read that book twice. Yeah.

So I definitely have read it through and through. I love Patricia Cornwell. I think she's phenomenal. I've read all her books and I recommend you read not only this book, but love Patricia Cornwell. I think she's phenomenal. I've read all her books and I recommend you read not only this book, but read all her books. I don't know where I stand on this one anymore. I was very convinced when I read the books. I remember being super convinced.

Through more research, I'm wavering. Her argument is compelling, but I am not completely convinced. And the crux of the motivation for him doing this seems to be that he supposedly had impotent. And it was brought on by multiple surgeries as a child for genital fistulas. This caused the impotence. He was very angry about this impotence. He took it out of women. Adah, adah.

Now, the other thing is that he had an obsession with murder and the macabre and like the dark stuff and he painted about it. He used it as inspiration. I always hesitate to use that to convict anyone of anything because look at all the books. Yes. Like you're like this.

Yeah. The first one seems plausible to me. He developed the hatred of women, believed them for his problems with sex and intimacy and the like. That can cause rage. We've seen that happen. We've read cases of that happening. But apparently the hospital where he received all those surgeries actually might have only specialized in rectal fistulas and not penis ones. So that's interesting. But again, that's just like a thing that people have found. Also a lot of his wife and like people he was with in life claimed that he was like a serial adulterer and cheater.

And he actually might have had like quote unquote illegitimate children throughout his life. So to me that doesn't say he was an impotent person. See, he seems to be pretty. If you have some kids, I don't think that's a wrap of that. But apparently the only time that this penile fistula was ever brought up was by his family member. And then this family member later said well It could have just been family gossip and he there was no real proof that he suffered from the

Uncle Walter's dick just fuck just the 1800s of above it all you know like we all just talk about each other's genitalia Yeah, we all had each other about venereal diseases Blame people for murders, it's all, it's all been good fun. Now, so I had to take a second to this set. Penile fist jill is just really through me off. You're no one to do that. Being casually talked about it, like family dinners,

just being like, oh my god, have you heard? Pass me the gravy, alcohol, filter. Yeah, he can't, alcohol. Yeah. He can't fuck anymore. Isn't that nuts? Like I just was like, whoa. Cousin Suzy, like why are we talking about that? Like why do you care about a lot of alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, It's not for me, I'm out. Good old, good old sicker.

Now Patricia, Patricia Cornwall, was able to use mitochondrial DNA to match a sequence found on a ripper letter stamp with letters written by Walter's sicker, which they're known as sicker. Really fucking course. Very cool. This seems pretty damning, but the lettering question was the Doctor Open Show letter, which me, Elena, now in 2022, says that letter is a whole load of bullshit.

Okay. Definitely not written by Jack the Ripper. Now, if that's the letter he's tied to, then I think, yeah, maybe he wrote a hoax letter. Yeah. I can 100% maybe use a jackass. I think he was. I'm pretty sure Walter Sicker was an asshole.

He's had many affairs, so there's that. But like mitochondrial DNA is not a great identifier. We're going to get more into mitochondrial DNA in a minute. It doesn't really narrow down to one person. It can eliminate people. It doesn't really narrow down to one person, it can, it can eliminate people. Oh, it doesn't really narrow. It's not good for identifying. Again, it's great.

mitochondrial DNA is very valid, very awesome. High five. mitochondrial DNA. But like in this kind of case, no, compelling. Compelling. Compelling. Compelling. But not case closed, in my opinion. But very cool that she was able to do that.

And very cool that she got all the way to London and was like, let's fucking test these. That's a sick ass type of Patricia. Yeah, that's my Patricia right there. She takes the bull by the fucking horns. This is what she does. She sounds like a capricorn. I'm gonna look it up.

Me, she is. Now, I find it interesting, however, that he may have placed clues into his paintings to point to Ripper crime scenes. That was something that was brought up. Okay. Okay. It is time to talk about America's number one meal kit.

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HelloFresh.com slash Morbid 16 and use code Morbid 16 for 16 free meals across seven boxes and three free gifts. Again, that's HelloFresh.com slash Morbid 16 and use code Morbid 16 for 16 free meals across seven boxes and three free gifts. He painted a lot of people who, especially and Patricia was saying that Patricia's birthday is the day after mine, that which is a gem in her. Oh, look at that.

They're determined. Where did it go? There you go. There you go. Now, he painted a lot. And I think she is right. I think my friend, Patricia, is right. That's your girl.

We're girls now. But I think she's right in saying that these subjects and his paintings, a lot of them do seem dead. And that even when they're not being presented as dead, they seem dead. And it's like he does seem to like that kind of Google situation. And a lot of his paintings do have dead people in them,

like they're straight up dead people, but she pointed out that a lot of them seem like there's some kind of violence associated with them. It's, they're definitely dark. I will say that for sure. Yeah, they are, huh? It's definitely an interesting note when you put it next to possible impotence and a trait of women, the mitochondrial DNA, which I'm like, but we'll put that next to it. It's definitely an interesting little thing. He had two particular paintings that people point to as proof. That sounded like I was like Peter Piper

or Picked a Peck of Pickle Peppers. Like I said a lot of people. But you did it. But it was a lot. The pop filters were good. Two particular paintings that people point to as proof. Jack the record is bedroom. There's one.

Saw that. So one of them, I'll start with the other one first, the Camden Town Murder, which was painted after Emily Dimmick was murdered in her bedroom in Camden. It was a real murder. The picture of the painting is a naked woman lying on a bed. She's facing away from the camera,

so you don't see her face. And a man is sitting next to her with his head in his hands. It's haunting. It's like tragically beautiful. It's like very dark. He did a lot of sketches and works based off of these murders and inspired by other crimes like it or like the Ripper murders. People tried to say he could only have painted some of these by being at Ripper crime scenes, but I begged to differ. I don't see anything concrete there. There was also a lot of sketches of different crime scenes. Exactly. And he actually painted a painting called Jack the Ripper's

Bedroom. Like you said, in 1907, 16 years after the murders ended, it's a really cool painting to be honest where it appears. Like an ominous figure in red and black is standing and peering out over White Chapel. Yeah. The line of vision is through these double doors and like this long burgundy carpet.

It's like very black and burgundy, the whole thing. It's very cool in my opinion. I would love to have that painting. It's just like a very cool painting. It is, I agree. His landlady, oh, his landlady. His landlady had once told him that the room he was renting was likely one

that Jack the Ripper rented. Oh. And that's when he painted that. Because he was like, oh, I'm staying in Jack the Ripper's bedroom. It's strange of her to say, considering we have not identified Jack the Ripper. What?

But like, all right, Land Lady, go off. That, I mean, whatever you need to do to get people to stay in your place back in the 1800s, like, girl, you got to make that money. But this definitely would have made me feel some type of way if my Lands, like, girl. You gotta make that money. But this definitely would have made me feel some type of way if my land lady was like, hey, this room is probably where Jack the Ripper was staying when he was doing his murders.

I would say, I'm gonna need my security to pause it back by. And I would have been like, give me a canvas if I was an artist, because I'd be like, holy shit, the dark shit, like, energy here. Like, let's just see what comes out. Like, artists thrive over that stuff. First they do.

They thrive over, like, heavy emotions and heavy feelings and environments and stories and music and sounds and smells like anything can get them going. And we can say that because Elena's parents slash my grandparents, yeah, we're related. In art school. They did. They're both artists.

They've both, like, I've known them to paint through, like, some shitty times. Absolutely. They have some They're both artists. They've both, like I've known them to paint through like some shitty times. And like they have some dark artwork as well. Exactly. That they've told us about it and been like this happened. So I painted this. Exactly. Like I have a painting in my living room.

I was gonna say of a woman holding a baby and my mom painted it. And it's like very dark and you know. Very outside of her normal way of painting. Like is it a sketch? I was gonna say it's actually a sketch. She's a painter and this is a sketch, like a very gnarly rough sketch, but it's beautiful.

So beautiful. And she painted it after she suffered a couple of miscarriages and she finally had a baby and she titled it Joy. We should ask her if we can share it. We should because it's a really beautiful painting. Yeah, I love it. And it's in my house now because she gave it to us after when we were going through our miscarriages We should because it's a really beautiful painting. And I love it. And it's in my house now because she gave it to us

after when we were going through our miscarriages and like the IVF situation. And it was a nice little reminder that it can happen. Exactly. But that's like a really dark thing. And she painted through it. Right.

And then something good came out of it. And I think that that's how a lot of artists work. And I think Walter Sikker just happened to like dark shit. And he was inspired by the macabre. I think that that's how a lot of artists work. And I think Walter Sikker just happened to like dark shit. And he was inspired by the macabre. I understand that. So I'm not gonna sit here and fault him for that and accuse him of being Jack the Ripper because there's some things that I can say

for sure that make me go. Like he's one of the only, he's one of the only ones. There's a few that you can go, you know what I'm gonna count you out yet. I'm not counting him out yet. Am I saying case closed by no means? Am I saying case closed on him? But I'm saying, I don't know if we can really count him out.

I want to hang out with Patricia, and I want to hear everything she's got because she's got a lot of shit. You heard? Patricia Kormann. We could celebrate her birthdays together. Celebrate your birthday together. Like books, I love them.

She writes them. I write them, I read them. You write them, you read them. I have your entire series on my bookshelf right now. Let's talk Jack the Ripper girl. I'm in this now with you. You could have Pat Patricia. You could have Alaina's entire series of books.

Let's become best friends, Patricia Cornwell. Tinyurl.com slash the butcher and the rent. Let's make it happen. Me and Patricia, I want to sit down, I want to hear all her stuff. You got to. Because again, I'm obsessed with those books, like the book she wrote, like Portrait of a Killer,

about this, with all her research. It's fascinating, it is compelling. Yeah. And it will make you sit there and go, huh, yeah. And it's like she has some other stuff that she is not released yet, and I would die to sit down and hear it for a while. About Walter. About Walter's sicker, and she is 100% convinced that he's the guy.

I want to know the other stuff that she's got. And now I want another one. And now I want another one. I think she might be working on more shit. I believe in Patricia, I really do. But, you know, I will say I understand the dark art being part of the theory because it's like, of course, along with everything else. And she even places like crime scene photos next to some of his portraits. When you do that, it's a little wild.

The positioning is a little wild sometimes, and I get that. And that's why I can't say that he's not because it is pretty compelling, but you can kind of argue those either way. He did resemble the description of the ripper. He was a light-complexed male under six feet tall with brown hair, brown mustache at the time, but like, we've already gone through that.

But along with everything else, still. Yeah, description fits. Now an interesting tidbit was that Patricia had test done, and this one we're making up. She had test done on the papers used in the sickert letters and the ripper letters. She wanted to see what kind of paper there were watermarks. There wasn't, there was a specific kind of paper.

The same paper was used for three of the sickert letters and two of the ripper letters. This was apparently from a run of paper that only had 24 sheets. Dude. So at the very least here, I believe he is a ripper hoax letter writer. Yes.

At the very least, he's connected in some way. Yeah. And again, I urge you to read her book. She's phenomenal in my opinion. I think she makes good points. She's on to something. There's also the possibility that he knew who Jack the Ripper was and was covering.

It was complicit in some way. Maybe he used his artwork to get through all of the guilt of that. Exactly. And maybe he could have been even as far as him being inspired by someone he knew who was committing these murders and putting that onto his art. So I think he is a valid one to look at.

I'm not saying case closed on anyone because I don't think I have enough for that, but it's compelling to say the least. I will say that paper thing. At the least, he's a hoax writer, definitely. And again, read that book. I will link it so I will add to the library of Jack, the Ripper books that I'm urging you all to read.

Get a new bookshelf. Yeah, I was gonna say get a new bookshelf and get like a billion hours of time to read them because, wow. Oh, there's some bookmarks. There you go, lots of bookmarks. We love a big mark. A big mark.

We love a bookmark. It is a big mark. Sorry, I've just like transported back to this time for a second. It's all good. So let's get into the next guy who some of you may have heard of. It's somebody called HH Holmes. Can you say it one more time? H.H. Holmes. No, I don't think so. H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H which is soon. Yeah, you'll have to buy another book for that.

It will give you 1,000 other books for that. That's probably gonna be another like several part or deep dive, I'm gonna end up driving myself crazy and John in the process and probably Ash along the way. I'm gonna create some of them. So that'll be in the next like few weeks. I'll definitely do it. Okay, it'll come up.

Oh. Because I feel like because it's, I can talk about this. It's so fun to have this like fresh, not too fresh, but a little fresh in your mind. Wow, girl. So I'll stay a little general here, but it makes a little bit of sense. I'm not convinced, but it makes a little bit of sense.

I see it. I actually, like I know the very basics ofH. Holmes and like what his whole deal was. Most people do. It's homes with someone with vast medical knowledge. She had a medical degree and was by all accounts very skilled in that area. Uh-huh. Point one for being Jack the Ripper, at least in my eyes. Agreed. He looked like the descriptions. He was medium-build, medium-hyton, had a dark mustache, and he dressed fancy. Truth. However, they're vastly different, they're vastly different in their methods of killing.

Holmes created a murder castle. Over like years and years and years, had various shoots and hinders and trapdoors to dispose of bodies. Jack just left his victims in the street for everyone to find. Holmes was killing for insurance money and selling skeletons and shit and just liked to kill people. Like, he just literally liked hurting people. Do you think it's possible that like,

that like, he started killing people in White Chapel and then was like, ooh, like, I make a cot leaving these people out in public. So like, that's maybe that was his whole inspiration for the murder house. Maybe, perhaps, maybe. But I don't, the reasonings aren't lining up for me. Yeah, because he wasn't,

I couldn't stand the whole insurance money thing in the skeleton. Holmes liked a financial reward for his killings. He didn't always, but like he liked that. And as we know, the previous victims wouldn't have no financials to give him. Exactly. Jack was seeming to be a man, in my opinion, on a mission, out to send a message, not to get any money from it.

He just, there was something he wanted to do here, and he was locked on it. But Holmes was always working, and he was always able to be tracked down through his financial nonsense. Like there is a very clear trail that you can follow, H.H. Holmes. July 1888 to 1889? Nothing. In the United States. Weirder.

Nothing. And according to Diaries found by his great-great-grandson, Jeff Muggett, which I can't imagine suddenly realizing that your H.H. Holmes' great-great-grandson. That would be a wild discovery. It would be a real moment. Like, that's some people log on to 23 and you don't find out how to finish. Other people find out that H.H. Holmes'

is their great-great-grandpa. I logged on to 23 and me and I found out that I am probably gonna get gallstones in my found out that I am probably going to get gallstones in my life and that I am 1.4% Italian in this guy logged on and they were like, hey, America's first serial killer is your great-great-grandfather. That's wild. We do have a hot claim though. We have Viking blood. That's true. And it's pretty rare. It is pretty rare. So, roar. So, so roar. See, it came right out. So, so natural. Much like roar.

So, Jeff Mudgeett said that he, according to his diaries, was in London at the time of the murders. And that he mentioned training and assistant during that time as well. So, there's also a ship manifest that has records that show an H Homes returning from Britain to the US right after the Mary Jane Kelly murder. Now H Homes, it can be a name that a lot of people had. Okay, just saying.

All right. You love a ship manifest. I love a ship manifest. Can I like, should I get you a ship manifest? It's Christmas. Give me a ship manifest. I love a ship manifest. Can I like, should I get you a ship manifest? It's Christmas. It's gonna be a ship manifest. Get me this ship manifest. Like this is a cool ship manifest.

Cause I don't even think it's him, but whatever. Now the theory is that he was using the London murders as training sessions. He once wrote, quote, I roamed about the world seeking whom I can destroy. But he was a liar. He was a known, and proven, fucking, liar, liar, pants on fire.

He actually confessed to shit he didn't even do. Like he said he killed people that they later just found alive and well. That is true. And also I feel like he probably would have loved to have been considered Jack the Ripper, so that's why he couldn't be. 100% even didn't do it.

He's ego theatrical. And he was a killing machine. He killed because he liked it and he was able to financially gain from it. It was just like everything he needed. I got money from it and I like doing it. So it's just like, there you go. The Jack the Ripper killings always ring to me. Like I said, more of a a message more of a hatred for

these women or these streets or this place or these circumstances. There's something here. It was symbolic. I feel like it was deeper than just pure bloodlust. Bloodlust was part of it, but a message was there somewhere. He was sending fear throughout those streets. There was more to it. Holmes is just like ego with blood

lust. Like he's just like lion, conning, seaving, like he's just a shithead. Jack is a shithead too, but like in a different way, different kinds of shitheads. And maybe I've spent too much time in too many hours with Jack's bullshit, but he feels like he's just got something more to say. I don't know, it's hard to describe, but I remain unconvinced either way, that'd be. And I wanna get way more into that when I cover HH Holmes and I will, so just stay tuned for that.

I'm right now, I'm not convinced. Okay. But I'm not convinced. Not convinced. Count, how many times the Linus said that throughout the episode? Right, right now, I'm not convinced. But I'm not convinced. I have yet to say for sure, there's a couple of people that I'm Zalina said that throughout the episode. Right, right now. I'm not convinced. But I'm not convinced.

I have yet to say for sure, there's a couple of people that I'm like, no, that's not it. Yeah, there's a couple that I'm like, hmm, I don't know. I don't know. It seems like it might be right. Now here's someone who I really fucking don't think did it,

but the whole world was told that this is the guy, like a couple of years ago. Oh, okay, yeah, that's good. We're talking about Aaron Kosminsky. Please go off, go off on the first reason why he- We have been talking about this, because obviously she's been- For we-

I was gonna say, we- We've been talking about this. Aaron Kosminsky, he didn't do it. First of all, now go into a ton of the reasons why. Jack the Ripper's name is an Aaron. It's just not. I don't see it. I refuse to believe it.

To the point where John is taunting her and being like, not Aaron. No, John is, yeah, John literally has been like, I think it's Aaron. I feel like it's Aaron. I don't know. I think it's Aaron. I just don't think it's Aaron.

I don't know. It's just something about it. Doesn't work for me. It doesn't feel right. Put is it Aaron? think it's Aaron. I don't know. It's just something about it. Doesn't work for me. Doesn't feel right. Put his adaran. It's not Aaron. It's not Aaron. And there's much more to back that up

than just his name not fitting for me. I literally have to say, A-Ron. A-Ron. Yeah, it's just not it. And by the way, I'm kidding. And because anybody thinks that names mean that you murder people,

and that I'm like saying that I'm not I mean we said like the entirety of this show that if you have three first names You're murderers So we we don't we don't completely subscribe to like your name means you're gonna be a killer. We're just yoshing you just joking But on a serious note his name's not Aaron Totally kidding, but by the way, fuck that. But, no, not an Aaron. Now, in the MacKnot in papers, he is that third suspect

that he named. Oh, he is. He's that third one. He wrote that he was, quote, a Polish Jew who lived in the very heart of the district where the murders were committed. He had become insane owing to many indulgence in solitary vices. He had become insane owing to many indulgence

in solitary vices. He had a great hatred of women, had strong homicidal tendencies, and was, and I believe still is, detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889. This man's really wanted a lunatic. Well, and also funny that you said this man, because the next thing is this man,

in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the city PC, Nehrmiter Square, which is where Catherine and Ados was found. But everyone kind of looked like that. I love that they always say like this person is just like an insane lunatic from an asylum. Like, first of like chill everybody, but also he got some stuff wrong.

Weird. This guy was a hairdresser by trade originally. He was, but everybody said he was definitely not working at the time. He hadn't worked in years. He was just like floating around. All right. But he hairdressed at one point. Now a lot, a lot of sources will say that Robert Anderson, our Switzerland jet-setter and chief Donald Swanson, who took over while he was gone, both believed that this guy was Jack the Ripper and that they stated it. Why? They didn't. Oh.

They didn't. According to Jack the Ripper tour website, which I'll link in here, Anderson never named him. But instead, he wrote, he believed Jack was a quote, Polish Jew, which is what you can see in the Macnottan papers. Obviously, everybody's just talking out of their ass at this point. Swanson wrote in a little side note in the margins of Anderson's memoir.

He pointed to that where he said, like, this person was a Polish Jew, quote unquote. He wrote, in a very short time, the suspect, which is who the Anderson was referring to, the suspect. With his hands tied behind his back, he went to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch and died in that's an asylum and died shortly afterwards, because Minski was the suspect.

So Anderson is saying the suspect for project the Ripper is this guy and Swanson has written in the margins of that and pointed to that and said that suspect that he's talking about went here He died in a asylum right after he went into it. That was Kuzminsky Okay, so that led people to go oh two plus two equals four Kuzminsky Aaron Kuzminsky he died in an asylum a couple of years after he was put in one. And this guy's referring to a Polish Jew, which is what McDonald is saying. Oh my God, that's him. Well, but Aaron Kuzminski did not die in an asylum shortly after being put into it, which is what Swanson said that he died shortly thereafter. It's he lived until 1919.

So this was not the same Kuzminski. This is another Kuzminski. And there's certain spellings of the other Cosminsky, which use a Z. Ah. And that's not how you spell this one. Now, it's just he's he's no, this isn't the guy. He was very thin. Like described as being very gaunt and thin. He doesn't match any descriptions. He was never described as a man who was a danger to those around him, Aaron Cosmonech. Geez. More that he was a danger to himself, he would be. Oh.

The homicidal tendencies that McNaughton is talking, I couldn't find that in any records. The two people that he has said have all the sidal tendencies that he might not have. Yeah, did not. They said he was not a, in fact, at least one of his admission notes specifically say he is not a danger to others. That's really sad. He was also declared insane and I don't think Jack was insane. Guys.

But these people do. I don't think it. I just don't. And he wasn't in an asylum until two years after Mary Jane Kelly's murder. So he was walking around for two years, do you win nothing after killing Mary Jane Kelly in that fashion? But is it the same guy that thinks like he like powers down and then powers up again? That's the thing. I guess so. It's like that just doesn't make sense. But we fly forward to 2019. Do the soldier boy into 2019. There you go. This is

when it was claimed that DNA had solved the case of Jack the Ripper. We have identified the man and Aaron is the guy. Rejoice, right? Wrong. No, don't rejoice. I don't buy it, and neither should you. Rejoice for naught.

I do not believe this. So the DNA in question was taken from a silk shawl said to be found next to Catherine Edo's body at the crime scene. Already, uh, Ripperologist Russell Edwards owns this piece of history. He owns the shawl. Oh wow. Which I'm like, whoa. Uh, it was there. Oh, sorry, my bad. No, I just, you can't see this, but I held up a finger and went. She said, don't go there. I said, she said, we're not there yet. She said, slow down. Well, he asked, he has this. He bought it. Wherever you bought it from, I don't know where you buy something like that, but like holy shit. And he asked for it to be tested a while ago by a lab

at University of Leeds and John Moore's University in Liverpool. He wanted to see if there was any DNA on this, I could tie. They got some shit from it, but then in 2013 or 2014, I forget what you're, Edwards wrote a book saying, this is a guy that bought the shawl. He wrote a book saying it proved that Aaron Kuzminsky was the killer, but the results were not made public, like the DNA test results.

So we were just taking everyone's word for it. I didn't. I didn't. Then in 2019 they released those results finally in a peer-review journal, the Journal of Friends' Accine. What they found was that there was blood on the shawl and other stains that they felt could be semen stains. They found there was some mitochondrial DNA that matched Catherine Edo's and Aaron Kuzminsky. Sounds great, case closed. No. Mitochondrial DNA is great.

Like I said, great, valid, wonderful. Woohoo, for mitochondrial DNA. There are a lot of DNA. DNA, so hot. Right now. So hot right now. But the argument's there. DNA. So hot. Right now. So hot right now. But it is not a uniquely specific identifier. It is not used to identify.

It cannot say that it is 100% one person. Mitochondrial DNA can be used to rule a lot of people out. That is what it is used for elimination. If there is no match, it makes sense. But a lot of people who don't share any relation of any kind can have the same or similar mitochondrial DNA. It is only from your maternal side. That's all it is. So it doesn't narrow anything down to a single person. It can narrow the field a bit, I guess. But it's really not helping in this case.

I think this actually happened in one of the cases that I covered. I think it did. Yeah. Yeah, I can't recall right now. And it was the mitochondrial DNA. Yeah, and I remember I think I believed that the person was not responsible. Yeah. That's exactly what it was. Now, this could mean that the shawl might not have even belonged to catharanetes.

Because yeah, you're saying you have heard mitochondrial DNA on it? That can also match a ton of other people. Right. So you're just hoping it matches hers. Because you're saying that this was found at the crime scene. But we don't know that. I never read anything about a shawl being found. None of the investigative reports.

None of the police reports say that they collected a shawl. Wouldn't you also think that if the shawl was next to her body, it would be doused in blood? That's the thing. You would think so. I mean, who knows where they're saying it was. I don't know about it because in fact, forensic tests said it could have been that that shawl wasn't even from 1888.

And in fact, was it made until 1910? And all possible. And another part of Europe. And he burned a lot of her clothing To keep that fire going no, that was Mary Jane Kelly. We're talking catharines. Oh, sorry, sorry Matt catharines was in case you were because I know it's like hard to keep everything straight catharines was the second to last. Okay. She was the one that was very brutally eviscerated Right before the Mary Jane Kelly. It was like the one whose kidney was taken. Yeah, the kidney was taken.

Yeah, exactly. Sorry, my little dammit. I thought I was onto something. There you go. But she was the one found in Miter Square. It was outside. I never saw anything about a shawl. I don't know where that's.

In fact, in what she was wearing, it's not described that she was wearing a shawl. So I don't know where that shawl came from. Yeah, and she was wearing everything she owned. Exactly. And so I don't know about that. They didn't say conclusively that it was from 1888. They said a lot of people don't think it was from 1888. I don't know. But also I stand by my belief that he did not rape them or have sex with them before killing them. So the semen thing is strange to me. If that's semen, I don't think it was from that. I don't think he would have had time to get someone on anything. He didn't have time to do that. No.

Sexually mutilating the person, he definitely did that. But I don't think this was him producing semen at the scenes. Like I said before, I really don't. He wouldn't have had time to do later if anything, if anything, to be honest. But also, they never scientifically establish that the stains are, in fact, semen. This all feels like confirmation bias to me. They want it to be Aaron. They want it to be catharinetos, so they fit everything to be catharinetos in Aaron. Right.

Not to mention, they never released the specific genetic findings. It's all graphs and like blocks and stuff. No specific genetic variants are seen. And a forensic scientist Walter Parson, he spoke out about them failing to share the specific variants and all of that. And he said, quote, otherwise the reader cannot judge the result. I wonder where science and research are going when we start to avoid showing results, but instead present colored boxes. Because it was just like a colored graph.

That was a sick burn. To show it was a sick burn. I don't think this proves anything. I think this was pure confirmation bias. And to be honest, I am not convinced that that is Catherine out of show. Someone's gonna have to show me otherwise. I don't believe it.

All right. I don't believe it. All right. I don't see it. If you can find an investigative report or some police report that they picked up, a motherfucking show. A mother fucking show. That I will eat my hat, but I did not find it. I just don't buy it.

And it's, again, that might a Condrial DNA can match catheterinetos. It can also match a billion other people, well not a billion, like a lot. A lot, yeah. It can also match Aaron Kosminsky, it can match a bunch of other people in there too. And if you're not gonna show me,

without a shadow of a doubt, that that is a semen stain, then I don't buy it. And if it is a semen stain, and you're telling me that's from Whitechapel, in the 1800s, well honey, that could be from a lot of places. So I'm not going to sit here and say this is definitely from a Jack the Ripper victim, Jesus. Like what?

It's not. I don't believe it's Aaron. I'm not into the Aaron theory. No way. But do you think it could be Aaron? It's not Aaron. It's not Aaron. And you know what?

If you ask John it's Aaron and I'm angry about it, and he needs to listen to me again, go through this whole spiel. Simply for teasing purposes, he thinks it's Aaron. It is not Aaron. It's so, the last one, I'm just gonna mention briefly. This is just like a quick little. His name was James Maybrick.

He is a suspect I'm going to talk about in a couple of weeks when I cover his entire case. Oh. Him and his wife Florence made brick. It's a very interesting case. He is definitely not Jack the Ripper. According to me, who is obviously an expert, he's not.

Are you a Ripperologist at this point? I think I am. What? I'm being called by somebody as a Ripperologist. I am not a Ripperologist. I'm probably like pissing so many off by saying that. I'm totally kidding. I'm becoming a somebody as a ripperologist. I am not a ripperologist. I'm probably like pissing so many off by saying that. I'm totally kidding. I'm not.

But I honestly, I love this case has made me want to continue. Well, what qualifies you? I think you've probably need to do a lot more. Years. Yeah, you got to put in some more work there. Do it. And I'm willing to do it. So I think I might do it.

And then I don't know. Let me know what it takes to be a ripperologist with all the extra time you have. I would like to add that onto my list. Just capricorn things. I'm gonna keep going with it. I know. I'm telling you, I will have a definitive suspect in mind,

and I will tell you when it pops in my head. You think you're gonna get there? I know I'm gonna get there. Whoa, the determination, I just said. I think I also think that I don't know if Patricia wants to join forces. We can get on this shit, and we can solve it together.

Patricia, I have the determination. Let's go. Let's go girl. But yeah, it's not Aaron. So there's that. That was a great try science, but that did not work out well. And the bitch yells at science.

This is I love science. But I think it's me over here with science being like, that does work. You're like, no. Close, but no, I don't know, science words never mind. Close, but no. Deoxy, ribo, nucleic acid. Hot.

So we will talk about James Maybrick in the coming few episodes or weeks. And that is the conclusion of Jack the Ripper for now. The way that sentence was almost so satisfying. For now. No, I'm totally kidding. You, this is great. Thanks.

I hope you guys enjoyed this. I hope you were horrified by it. I hope you got a little insight into these women in their lives and white chapel at the time. I hope you watch Peaky Blinders. I hope you listen to Unabshgared season three. I'm the first girl. That's how you would like to say it.

Watch Peaky Blinders though. I know this does nothing to do with it. But watch that. And we hope you keep listening. I will. We hope you. It's weird. But that's a way that you do a deep dive on.

Jack the Ripper and it's five parts and holy shit You think that you might solve it someday, but actually you should keep it that way because like you might solve it someday That'd be really cool, but you know that might do it Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.

What if you were trafficked into a cult over shot nine times, or fell in love with a vampire, or went into a minor surgery and woke up one week later, paralyzed? What would you do? I'm Whit Missildine, the creator of this is actually happening, a podcast from Wondry that brings you extraordinary true stories of life-changing events, told by the people who lived them. From a young man that dooms his entire future with one choice, to a woman who survived a notorious serial killer, you'll hear their first-person account of how they overcame remarkable circumstances.

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