Morbid - Episode 374: The Almost Valentines Day Massacre with Jordan from Nighttime Podcast
Episode Date: October 5, 2022We got another chance to sit down with one of our favorite Canadians, Jordan from The Nighttime Podcast. He walks us through a case that hit pretty close to home for him. Lindsay Souvannarath..., along with co-conspiritors James Gamble and Randall Shepherd planned a mass shooting that would have taken place on Valentines day at the mall in Halifax, CAN. Jordan was there pushing his son around in a carriage that day as the mall was quickly evacuated. Later he got the chance to talk to Souvannarath and was kind enough to share some of his interviews with us.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript
Discussion (0)
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Hey guys, we're just jumping on here to let you know
this is a collab episode with Jordan from...
Our favorite Canadian.
Exactly, from Nighttime Podcast.
We love him, he's Canadian, He's lovely. He says a boot.
In sorry.
In sorry.
You guys love him too.
Our last collab with him was when we did the Battle of the Cryptid.
Battle of the Cryptid.
But it was like more like, campfire tails, I think.
Campfire cryptids, it felt like.
Yes, yes.
And you guys really dug that.
You really liked Jordan.
So he's back.
He'll always be back.
We'll keep having him on because he's lovely.
He brings to us today a case that actually happened
in Canada, like really close to home for Jordan.
It was a would be crime.
A would be mass shooting
that didn't actually end up occurring
thanks to border Security in Canada.
They were able to stop it before it even happened, but the planning of this, the lead up to it,
and all of that is insane to listen to.
And then on top of that, Jordan did like, like a six-part series or like even more, maybe
six plus.
Go on to nighttime podcast after you
Listen to this or before whatever you want to do
Because Jordan did a huge series on this case where he actually talked to Lindsey Savannah Rass who is the
Co-conspirator the co-conspirator and somebody who would have you know committed a
Huge atrocity basically and he was able to have many conversations with her
that he recorded.
They are mind-blowing.
They are chilling.
They are bleak.
Really wild stuff.
He did an amazing job staying completely
unflappable while talking to her
about some of the most heinous things ever
and the worst thoughts any human could have.
So I'm telling you, definitely go listen to night time podcast. This is the Lindsay Savannah Rath's story, but it's fascinating and chilling and we're gonna have him kind of walk us through it today.
We're gonna discuss it. We have a few clips that he brought to us. So we hope you enjoy and we hope this gives you something to think about. Yeah.
One of the largest and busiest malls in Atlantic Canada was almost the scene of a horrifying
shooting spree Saturday. Police believe Nova Scotia residents James Gamble and Randy Shepard
as well as American Lindsey, Savannah Rath, were going to shoot as many people as possible
before taking their own lives on Valentine's Day.
This appeared to be a group of murderous misfits
that were coming here or were living here
and prepared to wreak havoc and mayhem in our community.
We have a verdict, a true tragedy here in Halifax.
Shepard and Savannah Rath were arrested
at the airport moments after her plane landed
and mere hours before the plan was to be executed.
The only reason it didn't happen was because
of an anonymous tip to police just hours earlier.
Hey weirdos, I'm Alena, I'm Ash.
And I'm Jordan. and this is morbid. It's another collab with the nighttime pod.
You were all asking for it.
Everyone was anticipating another Jordan show.
Yeah, well, I'm just a little upset because I know you recently had Tobias from Goast
up.
And you were way till now to the head, man, we couldn't have had a force.
I know.
You should have brought you on.
I know.
I wouldn't have been able to talk.
I actually, I considered, like, should I contact them and just see if I can like tell
him I love him?
Oh my God. I was like, no, I could, like, I I contact them and just see if I can like tell him I love him? Oh my god.
I was like, no, I could like, I would just ruin it.
I'm way too big of a fan.
I think some of his people listen so they can reiterate the message.
There you go.
They'll send it.
I'm a huge fan.
I'm a huge, they only, I think the problem is I wouldn't talk to him as Tobias.
I would need to talk to him as Papa and like keep it all in care.
It was, it was a little hard. There were like a couple times where I almost slipped.
I honestly had like full-blown cardiac arrest before we went on the can attest.
Did you have like a mentee-be? I had a straight-up mentee-be.
Like there was a point where we couldn't like we were trying to change the name on the Zoom.
And I just slid the keyboard over to Ash because my hands were shaking.
I was so nervous.
She was like, take this.
I was like, take this.
I can't.
It was great.
It was wonderful.
Well, your listeners know what a mentee be is.
Yeah, I think I explained it on the last episode.
Okay.
If you guys don't know, we're all in a place of mentee be.
It's mental breakdown.
Yeah.
It's a hot, chic way of saying it.
Thanks to TikTok, I think I'm pretty sure
I don't even feel young anymore. I don't know
Should they credit it for it? This is yours, Ash
Okay, I see yours you own it now. Yeah, one of our cousins the other day asked me if I made up the word ye
So I was like no, that's true. I did not but I love it should have taken credit for that too
TM these words
TM them after people make them up.
Yeah.
Isn't that how it works?
Yeah.
I think so.
But no, I'm happy to be back.
It was great to last time I've heard from so many people
who are like, I can't believe you know more of it.
So I feel like I'm like,
arms length famous now.
That's how we feel when we talk to you.
Exactly.
Awesome.
And everybody loved your voice.
I saw so many comments that were like,
yes, such a soothing voice.
Yeah.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Well, I did anyone comment on like my Canadian-ness?
Yes.
Because I get that a lot.
It was all love.
It was all love.
Okay, until I'm on like an American show or something,
I don't realize how Canadian I sound.
Oh, yeah.
You're super Canadian.
The Canadian of it all is everything.
Yeah.
I love how you say about
I'm not gonna say it. Okay. Oh, I can't wait for you to say it
That's gonna be in your head
We are talking about something quite dark tonight, so that's how I'll say my about That's so American. Yeah, I hated that. I hated that a lot. Oh, sorry
You gotta just want to blow. Oh, sorry. You got a lot of glow.
Oh, sorry made up for it.
But it's true.
We're talking about something really gnarly and dark today.
It's something that Jordan has actually
covered on nighttime podcasts extensively.
And actually went so far as to have an actual interview
with one of the perpetrators here, or would be perpetrator,
I should say, maybe.
Yeah, that's kind of one thing that's weird about this, is perpetrator slash tried perpetrator,
I guess.
Can you spirit her, I suppose, planned perpetrator?
Yeah, if it wasn't for bad planning and organization, they would have been a perpetrator.
I'm convinced of that.
Yeah.
And it's a, but yeah, I did have the perpetrator.
Her name is Lilensie Savonaroth.
I had her on my show for, I think it's like a seven part series.
And it was, it was a bizarre experience because when you say like story hits
close to home, you know, that's often you understate, you overstate that, but in this case, I understate it.
It's Lindsay Tvonoroth and two others plotted a mass shooting at the Helifax
shopping center, which is the mall down the road for my house.
And the reason this hits so close to home is not only because it was planned to happen in the food court at the mall down the road for my house
But I was at the mall the day it was that they the public learned about it at the time my now
Almost 10 year old son was like I don't know like two or something or three and it was February so kind of a crappy time a year and
There's not a lot you can do with a two or three
year old in February. So we spent a lot of time just like me pushing them in a stroller around
the mall as I drank coffee and listened to podcasts on my headphones. We're at the mall. Yeah,
just to see what he would often fall asleep and we just kick around and do our thing. But one particular
day, Valentine's Day, or actually was the 13th of February,
the mall got evacuated while we're in there.
And I'm like, oh, must be like a bomb threat or something.
But no, the story went from the malls being evacuated
to there's like basically SWAT teams everywhere.
Then the story spread that mass shooting was planned to occur at the mall in the food court by an American woman in two local men in Halifax, but it was thwarted thanks to the work of our border security agents. like how the story starts for me. And when something like, as you could probably test to, when you cover crime stories and dark stories,
often it's on the other part of the world
or the other part of the country,
sometimes they happen in your own community,
but very rarely is it like a story this insane
kind of walks onto your doorstep.
And I guess that's how it happened for me.
That's exactly it too, is usually like you said,
like I once in a while we'll get one like,
you know, the Boston strangler,
or something around Cape Cod that were like,
wow, okay, that's nuts, I know where that is.
But most of the time it feels so removed
because it's like that's in California,
that's all the way on the other side of the country for us.
So you can appreciate like the direness of it all
and the intensity of it all,
but you're like, it's so far away
that it just doesn't even feel like reality.
Yeah, exactly.
And then in this case, when the story started to come out as to what was planned at them
all, it kind of incorporated all these sort of dark world events kind of came to my door
step.
Like in Halifax, Nova Scotia, it's kind of for the most part, a small town, or a big
town, small city, but not the kind of place where you would expect, you know, call-on type
event to happen.
So when we heard the news that an American woman that was obsessed with Columbine met a guy
on the internet with the plan of coming here to just shoot at random in a food court.
It was kind of like the stuff that you say
never would happen in your hometown.
It's like all those things kind of collected
in a dark corner of the internet
and tried to make their way here.
And it's when it all went down initially,
the news for the most part, like it was reported on,
but in a lot of aspects, they just kind of told the basics of the story and moved on.
Being a research, kind of nut with these stories, I just dug really deep into it and
tried to learn everything I could about the people involved in to a much greater degree than I would normally would because again this is something that
you know hit so close to home it was a
a weird time in a weird a weird story
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You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wundery app. So before we get into it, you listened to the episode.
What did you think of hearing her describe what she planned to do?
That is the part that I, we were sitting there listening to it with our mouths open.
Like it was like, it felt like something from a movie that you would watch the movie and be like,
that's too much. No one acts like that. That's not because she was just so cold. And it was also
so it was even scarier because it's like confronting the fact that because you hear about like
serial killers and you're like they're evil and you, that's crazy that that exists in the world, but then when you hear someone like just this young girl
talking so coldly about it, it's like,
oh, there's really people that are,
you probably pass by on the street that think those thoughts.
And that is the scariest thing I've ever heard.
And it's not even like she was talking,
she was talking so coldly about it
But she almost has this like sing song you way to her voice where she's saying these horrible things in this
cute voice. Yeah
Yeah, people a lot of people had asked after I released those episodes if it was like scripted like as if she was reading
Because she did feel that way. Yeah, it does. It isn't. It's she
knew what question so is going to ask her, but she she just like maybe when we get a bit into
her background, it may have something to do with that she has a background as a writer
that she can kind of organize her thoughts well, but she just speaks very clearly and articulate
with like a little emotion. Yeah, it's very strange.
And this kind of opens up, I guess,
what led me to connecting with her is...
So the story, as far as what the public knows,
is when it initially happened,
is that an arrest was made at the Halifax Airport
of a young woman who is coming in from the US
with the plan of committing a shooting.
She was very quickly whisked the way to prison
or to jail like a wallowating.
I think she was initially charged with uttering threats
probably as they did their research,
but when her name came out in the news
that this is the woman responsible,
her name is Lindsay Suvonera,
I started googling,
trying to find it like you know from like kind of find a Facebook page or Twitter and I ended up
finding a whole trove of user names that she used and different websites that I have never heard of
that she was writing on and she was prolific. And I think in the news, she was initially portrayed
as just this murderous misfit nut case from the US,
which may or may not be true.
But what I started finding online,
that the things that she was writing showed me that,
she there was something pretty unique.
There was a lot of, if you know what creepypathas are,
like short horror stories, I think.
Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.
I think it passes.
What I, and that one of the first things
that I found that made me think like,
whoa, this is, you know,
there's something interesting going on here.
What she had wrote a whole bunch of creepypathas
under a fake name,
and there were just these short, super violent,
super dark horror stories,
and she actually had gained a following online of people
who they don't realize who she is in real life
and the fact that she's now in prison in Canada,
but they were following her creepy pastas.
And to this day, there are a bunch of YouTube videos
where people with creepy voices
are like reading her short stories.
And I've even gone down in the comments of some of them,
and people don't even realize that this is the person
who originally wrote it is what they're involved in.
But when I started finding all this different stuff online,
I was finding her creepy pastas.
She had a YouTube channel where she was doing,
I think they call them long place,
where you just play a video game and talk to the camera.
I was finding all these things, and I'm like, man, she doesn't place, we just play a video game and talk to the camera. I was finding all these things and I'm like,
man, like she doesn't sound, like she sounds
like pretty intelligent, like this is really weird.
And I made, I will say the fateful decision
to write her a letter to let,
and what I wrote her was basically a,
probably something like a victim impact statement.
It was basically like, hi, you know, this is my name.
I didn't say I had a podcast,
but I was like, I was at the mall that day
and kind of told her my experiences
and I didn't think I would ever hear back
and it was probably three months later.
I got a letter in the mail with her name
and the return of your dress.
That one has been so wild.
One house strange is that she may have killed you that day,
but was willing to correspond with you later.
That's.
Yeah, that is very, that was wild.
And much like when you, if you listen to my episodes
with her in it, she is so cold and straight,
that's kind of the way she came across in the early letters.
And, but what I did, I kind of made a point.
I was kind of, I guess I was interested.
Like, what was someone in the US who's obsessed
with Columbine and allegedly believes
that they're like the reincarnation
of the Columbine shooters.
What would them come to Canada to some small town
and shoot up a mall?
So I was kind of like putting all that,
a lot of kind of baggage behind me
just to try to get them to open up
and in writing with her,
in knowing a bit of her background,
I had a, I was thinking like,
yeah, she's in the short stories and horror.
Like I'll just talk about that stuff
and see if she'll start talking to me about her crime.
And it only just took a couple letters back and forth.
She started complaining about the way she was being portrayed in the media.
And I was like, well, I have a podcast.
Well.
That's kind of how it started.
Because it was, again, in the media, she was kind of portrayed as like a bogeyman,
which again, if you hear her talk, that's, maybe that's accurate.
But she, I guess,
wanted a different side of it to be shown, or at least, I don't know about a different
side, but hopefully she wanted the truth to be shown. And I was able to get a bit of
cred with her because at the time my podcast was played on the local college radio, she
was in a jail in Halifax, so from her cell on her radio she
could pick up my show like every Sunday night on the radio. So yeah, so she was
listening and I guess it was like yeah this guy you know he'll give me allow me
to tell my story and that's kind of the the genesis for how that series came.
It's wild too because there's somebody involved in this
from the United States from Illinois.
And it's really not a big story here.
I didn't know about this story until you told us the story.
I was like, wait, what?
And once I went into it, I was like,
how did we not know about this?
Especially with the obsession with like Columbine
and stuff, Columbine is such like a, that's such a tale here.
Like that is everybody knows what that is.
I mean, I think she said, wasn't she like seven years old
when that happened?
Yeah.
And I was in high school when that happened.
And I was actually homesick from school that day.
So I remember watching the entire thing
play out on the TV screen and being like, cool.
Now I have to go back to high school tomorrow.
And like, this is what happened at another high school. And it's so weird to
me that she became so upset. I mean, it's weird to me that anybody becomes obsessed with
Dylan Clebold and Eric Harris because what? But she was seven when that happened. Like
I didn't. I wouldn't think that would have the effect it would have on her that it has on people
who were in that adolescent group when that was happening.
No, it makes sense.
Yeah, but maybe you're a bit more like kind of impressionable during that formative
time or seven.
Because I like you, I heard about Columbine when I was in high school hearing about it when
you're seven maybe is different.
But the idea of like becoming so
fascinated with it and so interested in it that you join like an online subculture slash cult.
Like the idea of have you ever got into the column banners on your show and the idea of what that is?
We haven't gotten into it on the show, but I have listened to so many things about it just because
I could not believe that that is an actual subset of the world.
Because it's one thing to be interested in something
horrible that happened and be like,
I can't believe this happened.
I just wanna know about it and about the people
involved and all that.
I think we can all, like we've all been there.
But to like turn that corner into like idolization
and like glorification and like,
it's like that's a big line and you just sprinted across it
like how did that happen?
Yeah, it is, it's one thing to closely follow a case
where people may say like that's my pet case,
that's not a sci-ed or, you know, this sort of thing but when you have like you know you
start getting like a pillowcase with the killer's face printed on it and you
have his pictures all over your wall. It becomes a different thing. Yeah and
that's I guess in essence what the column binders are a largely online
community. I'm gonna play a short clip because one of the parts that I think
frame her story is during my episode whether one of the questions I asked her,
is like how you became, how you got into Columbine and, you know, what's up with the Columbine
or so the way she answered it is so honest and straight that it's important to hear, I think.
Can you just tell me about your history of interest with school shootings, Columbine, and
that culture?
When I first heard of the Columbine shooting, it was what had happened back in 1999.
I would have been only seven years old in first grade, I think.
But anyway, I heard of it pretty early on in my life.
And it was just something that kind of
stayed with me.
I didn't really have an active interest in it though until I was in college.
I was working on my novel about the boy who falls in love with death.
And I thought, hmm, when did the teenager, it would make sense if there was a school
shooting at some point in this novel.
And so I started researching school shootings and I looked up to Columbine shooting and started
reading more about that.
And again, it was all just academic at first, but then I just found myself more and more
identifying with the shooters and what they believed in and things like that.
Can you kind of maybe explain when it went even further to becoming more so a part of your
life? even even further to becoming more so a part of your life. Just when I started posting in the Columbine tag and kind of networking with the other people who posted there,
I just made so many friends there that I felt I had a lot in common with.
And we all connected this one thing and there were other things too, but it just became very significant for me.
And would you identify as like a column binder?
Back then, yeah, but one thing that people should know is that not all column
binders are the same. Some people just have a more casual
interest in column bind. Some people are into researching it as
a way of preventing more mass shootings in the future. Other people generally feel very
sorry for the shooters and what they went through in life. And others are more supportive
of their crime and others just have a general interest in true crime. But I found myself
being more supportive of the crime of course. And then there if I thought that is the way she ends it, of course,
of course, obviously, like, naturally, you would come to that conclusion,
but it's to hear her describe it as, as like a member of that community,
you can look at it and be like, column boners, like, that's a thing that's crazy.
But to hear someone give that straight-up a response.
I don't know, I find it chilling everything about it.
And it's the name too, I think.
It's being a column binder feels like,
you're like a one-directioner.
You know what I mean?
Like you're just like a fan, like that to me implies fan.
It's like, if you think about like,'m like ripper all just going to say that
to me that sounds more like someone who researches and is fascinated by that crime not somebody who is like
supportive of jack the rip it's like if it was like a ripper like I'd be like oh like are you like
in them like what is that it's just so when's like, some people that are column-biners
are just interested in it, but I'm like, no, I don't think that.
I feel like somebody who's just interested researching that
would not refer to themselves as a column-biner.
Absolutely not.
A column-binerologist.
A column-binerologist.
It implies something different.
Yeah, that definitely implies something
all together different. Yeah, that definitely implies something
all together different.
But it's just the fact that these kind of communities
can find a home online and kind of attract other people.
It's like of course something like the story we get into.
Of course something like this is born
in a community of people obsessed with Columbine.
Of course.
I don't know if it's my generation, but what she's describing,
at one point, she's like the Columbine tag.
She's talking about Tumblr. I guess she used Tumblr.
When you made a post on Tumblr, you could like,
hashtag Columbiner, and then other people who were Columbiners,
couldn't like search that tag and see the various posts.
That's where a lot of this story kind of like lives.
It really starts in the column binder community,
specifically on Tumblr.
That was outside of my age group.
Tumblr was tough.
Tumblr I think came out when I was in my last year of middle school I want to say.
So I was a big Tumblr, I was going to say, I remember you being a Tumblr gal.
Yeah, but I was not on that side of Tumblr.
What were you looking at at Tumblr?
I was looking at like more like wanderlust posts, like different countries and cats and cool
pastries.
Okay, much more respectable.
Thanks.
I think it's a little different.
Yeah.
I guess this is probably a good spot to introduce her co-conspirator.
Yes.
Because the story is mainly people who wanted to hear a Nova Scotia.
She is seen as the ringleader, Lindsay Savonaroth.
And the reason for that is really she is the last one standing basically to take the
fall.
It really is this whole plot to shoot up the mall in what a lot of people have dubbed the
Valentine's Day massacre because their plan was to do it on Valentine's Day.
It was mainly the planning of Lindsey Souvonaroth
and a young man from Nova Scotia,
from the Helifax area that she met online named James Gamble.
They actually met through the column-biner tag.
They interacted on Tumblr on these posts
with the hashtag column-biner.
The reason he's less of a part of the story
is because he's not alive
to answer for the crime, I suppose. It's really the only person who dies in this whole story
is James and ultimately it's self-inflicted. But I'm going to play another clip and this is
Lindsay describing meeting James. And I think this will get us on our way into the story
when we hear how these two come together.
Do you remember how you first actually made contact with each other?
Like the first message you sent?
Well, I got to be this little meme.
You know there's this one blog called Just Girl Easing and they just like, it looks really
kind of, things have just seemed really dumb to me.
And one of the things that they post
was like this image of two girls,
and it says, not being able to live without your best friend.
So I made a meme of that.
Like, I have that image, and then below it is a picture
of the Columbine tutors and they're dead.
I posted that to my blog, and I put it in the Columbine tag.
And James found me through that post and he started following me.
And I started following him after that.
His blog was called Challow Existences.
He obviously posted a lot of material related to Columbine.
He also posted things from the different horror movies he liked.
Kind of told my friends and my Skype group about him and one of my friends
on the Skype group encouraged me to start chatting with him. I was like, okay, I'll give it a try.
And so I just sent a quick message to James saying I thought he was really cool. And I don't know,
he replied to that and I eventually asked him, like if he had any other account online that
I can message him on and he gave me his Facebook account.
The original he began is just friends.
We were just chatting, finding out we had things in common.
And then we kind of started planning to meet up in real life and the context of that meeting
would be some kind of mass shooting.
And after that, I don't know, I just felt really strongly attracted to him.
I wasn't sure exactly what these feelings were. I thought it was just adrenaline from planning a murder,
but it was, it turned out to be so much more than that.
Wow.
Wow.
That one line, because when I heard that the first time when I listened to the episode, I was like,
oh, like that was the part where it was just like, oh, I thought it was just a adrenaline from planning a murder.
You know, she's like, you know how that is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's either love or adrenaline from planning a murder.
And even that's one of the few times that she gives inflection or
voice. She gets that from planning a murder.
And you know, like, everything else is just straight.
Yeah. And it makes sense to me that when you started corresponding
with her with letters, how quickly she was like, you know, I really
don't like how I'm perturbed in the media and started like letting
things out quickly because it seems like that's exactly
what happened with James Campbell is it's like she's like all of a sudden I was like we should
die together like out of it and it's like you've never even met this man like so strange. What
is that pathology that you're just so quickly like I'm gonna just open up and do these crazy things.
One thing that's wild about this is as you heard heard in that clip there, she's like, you
know, I got contacted him on Tumblr, we started talking on Facebook.
That actually, when she faced her charge, just here in Nova Scotia, I attended the court
hearings and stuff as she was being charged with the attempt at murder.
Really the sole piece of evidence against her is the transcript of their chat
logs on Facebook. What's crazy about it is they had one or two messages on Tumblr, they moved
to Facebook and that is the only spot they talked. They never talked on the phone, they didn't go on
Skype for months. They were on Facebook day and night, Facebook Messenger writing back and forth
and I had the full like logs of
their conversation which tell the story from like, you know, hey, where are you
from? And end with like, I'm getting on a plane and coming there. Like we're
going to kill your parents. And it's it's what's wild about it. It only takes a
couple pages into the conversation before they start saying like, let's meet up
and kill people. Oh my God.
How do you just say that and think the person you're speaking
to is gonna be like, hell yeah, buddy.
We always say that when there's like pairs of serial killers
or killers at all.
Like when you, we, oh, every time we've covered a pair,
we're always like, how did they find each other?
Like, how do you just open up to someone and be like,
you know, I've, I've really always wanted to kill someone
and then be like, well, you react the way I want you to.
It's like, what?
How does that happen?
Here's how it happens.
Here's how it happens for them.
Because since I have the logs and for them several times,
you can see it.
And the way it happens is just too bizarre to even be true.
So get this.
It's Christmas Eve.
Did you think that's where it was going to start?
Yeah, that happens on Christmas Eve. She's in her bedroom, and in her bedroom in the US,
he's in the bedroom of his parents' house in Nova Scotia. They're up late at night chatting.
They've only been talking for maybe two days at this point, and they're talking about Lindsay
had just got a new jacket, this like trench coat.
She sends him a picture and he's like, wow, that's a great coat. And they start talking about
where you can get coats like this. Armin Navy surplus store. And he's like, oh, you know, I got
combat boots at an Armin Navy surplus store. And then they start talking about, you know,
the different outfits they like to wear. And at one point, Lindsey says, you know, you must look pretty
intimidating with that. Like, do you, do you ever like scare people? Because he's describing
like wearing combat boots and a long trench coat and stuff. And he's like, yeah, I do. And
she's like, well, we should do it together sometime. And, yeah, and he says, well, I actually,
she's like, yeah, would be great to do it together sometime and scare some people.
And then he says, I'd actually have thought
about doing it on a major scale one day.
I have everything I need.
And she's like, oh, and then he starts describing the guns
that he has that his father's guns are like
in an unlocked cabinet, so he says.
And he's already like, you can,
he's James Gamble has already begun planning this and immediately she's like I mean
That's how it starts. No just no conversation about should I could I it's just yeah, I'll do it
It's a step and then for yeah, and then just for months after that their conversation
Focused on what are we gonna wear when we shoot up people the place what music will we listen to we need to come up with a playlist will publish the playlist online
What songs are gonna be on the playlist?
You know all these sorts of things and
Intermixed with a ton of sexting kind of stuff
Intermixed with their belief that
They are the reincarnation of
Eric
Harris and Dylan Kleboldt,
the column line she was reading.
You know why when they die?
If that doesn't even make sense.
That doesn't make sense.
Well, in their chat, they're even referring to each other.
Lindsay and James are referring to each other
using Eric and Dylan's nicknames, Reb and Vodka.
So Lindsay will say to him, like, good night, Reb,
and he'll say, like, good night, vodka and he'll say like good night vodka like calling each other
Because I know she had said like he's the Dylan to my Eric or something like that
And I was like oh, yeah, no and the way that they described what they were going to wear and she says
What did she say it was serial killer sheet school shooter school shooter? She excuse me. Yeah, that was
What fortunately for the people of Halifax they were much more concerned and spent way more time talking about
What they're what what the where what they'll say to the people as they're shooting? Oh
Then then they talked about like how will we get to them all like actual logistics?
Which is why it fails partially. So that's good.
Yeah, exactly.
And now the one thing about her story that I think
may help contextualize some of this is when I was going
through Lindsay's background and you know finding stuff about her online,
I had learned of course that she was a member of the Columbiner subculture and had made a whole bunch of
memes and
short stories and stuff kind of set in that world
But another side kind of revealed itself and I think that may help understand her and James's connection is that
shortly before she met James Lindsay had an
online relationship and badly. And when I
say, and badly, I mean like, nuclear meltdown badly. And that it evolved, it
evolves into Lindsay spending months making videos and memes and drawing her
online exes new girlfriend being cut up and all this stuff.
It goes on the fuck.
Like some of the stuff that I found is like there is one video I came across.
It's like six minutes long of the sound is just someone screaming.
In the video is just a slight show of drawings of exes new girlfriend, you know, being raped.
Having her head cut off,
bleeding on the floor with swastika's all over her face that are also like bleeding. You know, this sort of thing. And uh...
In what's interesting is when I did my interview with her and made this episode or this series of episodes, asking her questions like, you know, what guns are you going to use and, you
know, why are you so concerned about what you're aware?
She would answer those like nothing, but any time I've ever asked her things like, why
Valentine's Day, was there anything,
was this inspired at all or motivated maybe by her breakup?
She simply couldn't answer it.
She'd either hang up the phone or say,
I can't do this today.
And she would not answer.
Oh yeah, and I'm talking like,
I probably had six tries at asking her about this breakup before she finally said like you know one or two sentences about it
So although it has never really come out in the news that this is a big part of it. I'm absolutely certain that
That it plays a plays a role in in the whole story And just not to give us a big sidetrack
is this online boyfriend is also quite notable,
not because of his relationship with Lindsay.
But he's actually like this kind of mystery guy
that's very well-known for people
who research the far right and not see us.
What he is is, I think he's a Russian guy.
I don't know if anyone is easy for figured out who he is is a he's I think he's a Russian guy I don't know if if anyone is he for figured out who he is, but he's a Russian guy that started a chat
Group in website called iron march. Yep, and it's a spot
It's a spot where a lot of like kind of white
Nationalist white supremacist kind of people were chatting at the time and it became
I don't know like the eBay of neo-nazism and eventually
some a group called Adam Woffin, which is a registered terrorist entity in Canada and the US
was formed on that in that chat group and they see this guy that Lindsay was dating or whatever online
he goes by the name Slavros, they see him in some of the books he wrote as almost
like this kind of like godfather of that world. So he's notable even aside from his connection to
her, but it's just weird that she manages to have her own story taken place at Amal and Helife
Bax, but also be connected to this larger story of like, you know, White's the premise terrorist groups, which is quite bizarre.
Before he met her, he wrote a book that is,
I don't know if it's like a how to,
or not the how to, but it's more like an ideological
kind of story about a White supremacist
who goes on to do something horrible.
Thank you so much.
And Lindsay also meets Slavros through Tumblr.
He was putting up artwork of Nazi stuff.
So she ended up connecting with him on there as well,
and joined up with his kind of Nazi people.
She's in the column by on her world.
But ultimately, she's alone in her bedroom
with a laptop all day and all night,
in these dark places online.
So I guess it's not too much of a surprise
that it goes in this direction.
But I just think the breakup,
yeah, the breakup definitely plays a part in this.
And just seeing her reaction to that breakup,
it's not one of those like, I'm angry, I'm sad,
like normal, you know, like any kind of breakup you go through.
Hearing that she was like making this art about the new girlfriend and it's like all this like horrifically violent shit.
It's like that, that right there should have been like the biggest red flag to everybody. Like that is not a rational, sane reaction to a breakup.
It is one thing to have like,
go and get really sad, eat a lot of ice cream.
Like be angry about the new girlfriend
because you can't just get past your own jealousy.
Like I get that, but like doing that, going that far
and to put those like the images that you are creating
in your own brain about this actual human being out there like that, kind of shows you.
This violence was not something that she was just, like, forced into because of circumstance
or, like, felt like she could identify with because of circumstance.
It's, like, that seems like it's just innately who she is.
Well, in a violent person.
It even like summons the theory further when you find out that one of her plans was to
shoot somebody and say, you look fat when you're bleeding.
Like you know that was anger.
Like now knowing that the breakup happened and that's what she was doing, I feel like that's
anger from that situation being placed in this situation.
Yeah, I'll play the clip of her describing
what they were going to do in the mall.
So it's she'll describe,
when you hear her describe her victims
or her intended victims,
knowing the background that makes a lot more sense.
James had some weapons,
you had a location to side it.
When in your conversations with James,
I'm sure you were talking about what you were going to do
and what was going to happen.
What were you planning inside the mall?
What were you planning to do?
If this had have worked out, what would you both have done?
I loved most of the strategy to James because again,
it was his area.
I wasn't familiar with the Halifax shopping center so his idea was that we go into the food court bathrooms,
we change into the clothes, we were going to wear, we get our weapons ready, and then we just kind of come out and open fire on the food court. Did you have any plan as far as who you would target or what you would say or what not?
Did you have a plan in that regard?
We were just going to shoot pretty much whoever we saw, but we both kind of like had this
sort of ideal victim in our heads, people that we would especially want to kill, James just wanted to, he really
wanted to kill middle aged women, especially those who might have been Christian, those
who might have had a family, things like that.
And I, there were several different kinds of people I wanted to target.
One was maybe anybody who was particularly just
Genic-looking.
I just have these ideas about eugenics and what kind of
features mean that someone has good genetics versus bad.
And I don't know, anybody with poor looking genetics
would just be a target for me.
And another thing I was thinking of was, I don't know, maybe shooting some basic bitches
and being like, how, how you look fat when you bleed.
What the fuck?
That will never not be the most shocking thing ever.
And this, I mean, it's all very scary, but the scariest part is that you ask her the question
and she goes, hmm, like she's thinking
back to the day.
You can tell she's right there again.
And it sounds kind of like a positive.
I'm like, hmm, right.
She's reminiscing for a second.
Exactly reminiscent.
That's the perfect way to describe it.
Yeah.
In that clip, I didn't realize that clip didn't, maybe I didn't include it in the episode,
but I do remember having,
making a statement about like seeing a couple at a table
and shooting the guy,
or no, shooting the girl and letting the guy live.
Maybe I didn't,
because I heavily edited it,
because she said,
the way these interviews work,
it was probably four or five,
now actually more like 10 separate interviews
because we were doing it through the prison phone.
In any time a guard came, she'd have to end the call
or we'd run out of time and we'd have to wait a week
to talk again.
But anyway, I had, at the end of it,
I just had a ton of audio of her talking.
And so much of it was just so intense that I just wasn't going to use it,
especially the stuff that had to do with like race and this. She talked a lot about that sort
of stuff and I was just like, you know, there's no way I'm getting into any of this stuff.
In my episode, I asked her like, she's an, she's an ovation descent. I asked her what led her to be
She's an ovation descent. I asked her what led her to be,
identify as like a white supremacist neo-Nazi.
And she explained like how she came to form these beliefs.
And then she went on and on about what her beliefs were.
But I left out any part, she talked about her beliefs.
I left that out, but included how she got it.
Yeah.
So like you get the background,
but you don't get the propaganda.
Yeah.
In her description there are the victims
when she's talking about someone looking disgenic
or something, I think that's getting into some of the kind of Nazi stuff.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
It's shocking.
And it sounds too like she in the media,
because if you look up things about her in her background,
if you just do a very surface level
search, they do the thing where they're like,
she was bullied her whole life.
She didn't have any friends.
She never hung out with anybody.
She never got invited to a party.
And it makes you like, oh no, that's sad
for that little child.
And they did that to Dylan and Eric too. They did the like, they no, like that's sad for that little child. And they did that to Dylan and Eric too.
They did the like, they were bullied,
they never had friends and like they snapped and this is it.
And then when you actually go back,
are you here from people who were around them
while they were growing up?
Like, they were like, that was not the case.
Usually it's just like, no, they were just an asshole.
Like, it's just like they were not, like, they had friends.
Like, they had friends, they went places, they, it was fine. But it's just like they were not, like, they had friends. Like, they had friends. They went places.
They, it was fine.
But it's just this like weird created past
that we keep giving these people.
And it's so weird.
And not only is it a past, it,
it almost feels like it's giving them a past.
Like, how it happened because this, they were upset, you know?
Exactly.
Yeah, I got a weird story about her own with that.
So, in, if you read about Lindsay, you'll read a bit about like her background and bullying
and stuff.
And I think where a lot of that came from is when she was being sentenced in the courts,
her, I think her mom as well as her grandfather wrote letters to the judge basically pleading
for mercy and the sentencing, and those letters
were handed on to the press and were reported on.
So I think a lot about this bullying and this rough background probably comes from statement
these letters that her mom and granddad sent to intending for the judge, but listen to
this story.
So when I was preparing for this, I was sending her letters back and forth with different
questions and just trying to like get her to help me kind of with my research.
And she kept bringing up, whenever I was asking her about her past, there was this one
name she brought up multiple times saying things like, you know, I had a pretty good childhood.
I got along with most people except for this bitch named, and she'd say the name, this
bitch tried to ruin my life and she'd say the name this bitch tried to ruin my life
And she'd say the name a month later. I'd have a letter. She'd mention you know
In pasting she'd mention like I hope that bitch blah blah blah does I hope it's okay that I'm saying that where she said it
She really goes her and not me
Yeah, anyway, so I'm like
Wasn't too even trusted because she's just saying this name and passing,
but as I was kind of planning my series and seeing which direction
I go, I thought like, I'm going to contact this person and see what
they have to say and see like, you know, what this, what their side of
their beef with Lindsay is.
I found a girl and it was a pretty unique name.
I found it the person on Facebook and I wrote to them.
And I'm like, hi, I'm a journalist in Nova Scotia. You're probably probably know why I'm reaching out to you.
I wanted to connect with you and ask you a few questions
if you'd like to chat.
And they write to me like minutes later
and they're like, I have no idea what you're writing me.
And then I was like, you know, like, yeah,
I was like, do you not know what happened
in Nova Scotia last year with Lindsay Savonarath
and in this girl writes to me. She's like, I have no idea who that is. No, like, you must not know what happened to Nova Scotia last year with Lindsay Savonarath and in this girl right to me.
She's like, I have no idea who that is.
No, like you might have got the wrong person.
And then I was like, are you, you know, so and so
from like the Chicago area and she's like, yeah.
And I was like, did you go to this school?
And she's like, yeah.
And then I was like, what the reason, and I tell her,
I was like, the reason I'm writing to you is Lindsay
has brought you up a whole bunch of times
She's accused you of like stealing a boyfriend and spreading rumors about her in this girl that I'm talking to She's like I have no idea who you're talking to about and as I go further to describe it
I was like it gave like an age. I told her kind of what Lindsay was into in school
They're like what kind of extra curricular, like theater and drama and all this stuff.
Anyway, the girl ends up saying, she's like, it's funny that you say all that.
I remember dating this guy.
We went on like two or three dates and he mentioned something about having like a crazy
ex-girlfriend and I think she was Asian and her name, like, may have been Lindsey.
I don't know.
Oh my God. And that was it. And it turns out like that was have been Lindsey. I don't know. Oh my god.
And that was it.
And it turns out, like, that was the connection.
That was it.
She went with two dates with some guy.
That was, like, in a classical Lindsey.
But she, Lindsey, like, eight years later,
has brought this girl up repeatedly,
as, like, she ruined my life.
That is so scary.
Oh my god.
I know.
And that's what the girl said.
She's like, should I be, like, calling the police? Yeah. I'm like, oh, she's in jail. Yeah, she's in jail. She's only about's what the girl said. She's like, should I be like calling the police? She's in jail. She's in jail. Oh my god. But how scary would that be to hear?
Like from that girl, she's probably like, what? Because you're like, she's brought you up a lot.
Yeah. I don't even know who she is. Like, what? What a social commentary.
Oh, yeah. And I, yeah, I sent her like a link to the article. And I'm like, well, this is what Lindsay's up to you now.
She's like, holy crap.
Oh my God.
She was been terrified.
Yeah, but yeah, but as you heard in the clips there that we play, so we hear Lindsay
get into Columbine.
She said, busy on Tumblr.
She meets this guy, James.
They start talking, come up with a plan to meet up in person in the context
of that meetup would be a mass shooting.
The plan to go to the mall actually wasn't their first plan.
This is something I didn't get too much into the episode, but it was actually almost everything
was James' idea.
His original idea was to commit the mass shooting at an elementary school next to his house. Oh my god
Yeah, and Lindsey
Talked him out of that saying you know, it's too much like Columbine people will think we're copying
Love that that was reasoning. Yeah, like not like elementary school children. Yeah
Yeah, it's like now people won't respect us
Yeah, they're the next plan James had come up with was to do it at a hospital and specifically
go to the ward where the areas where people are really sick, that way they can't fight
back, like where there's like elderly people laying in beds.
Oh my god, the evil that is, like, truly wild.
Yeah, when she didn't like the way she said, I think what she told me is, or what she said in the episode is like,
I don't know what kind of message that would send, I don't like it. The next plan was a library because
it helifax at the time that they were planning this had just opened a major library downtown helifax
that we're very proud of, that was very expensive and beautiful and it's kind of like the centerpiece
of our downtown. He floated the idea of let's do it at the library and she didn't like that idea
because she didn't want it to be seen as a attack against knowledge. The last choice was we should
we should do it at a mall and she said yeah like retail capitalism. Yeah it was like they were
trying to find a meeting
as they were planning it.
Like they didn't actually have one.
And that's, I remember her saying,
like, I wanna clarify something about mass shootings.
Like she was like, I think y'all, you have it wrong.
And she's like that whole thing about,
this isn't an attack on like certain people.
And it's not an attack on like the individuals
that we murder in cold blood.
It's like a message and this is supposed to be against a bigger entity.
And she was going into it saying, does this make it better, everybody?
Does this kind of validate what's going on?
We're not going against the people we're murdering.
It's just a bigger message.
So it makes sense that you can understand that that's the way her murdering. It's just a bigger message. So it makes sense that she's like,
like you can understand that that's the way her mind works. It's like that's not a big enough message or that's going to look like it's against the individuals and not this bigger like splashy
message. Yeah, and it's like she was kind of tasked with coming up with the ideological meaning of
everything as far as their plan went. But again, it was like they had to like come up with the ideological meaning of everything as far as their plan went.
Didn't just they had to come up with it later. We need to find like, fit this into some sort of narrative of what we're planning here.
But with him, if you read the Facebook messages that they send back and forth,
it's obvious like what he wants to do, James Gamble, is just kill people and kill himself.
It's almost like his plan from
the very beginning is like it's almost as soon as they meet. It's like I want to commit
suicide, but kill other people first. Let's do it. And it's almost like through the chats,
Lindsey's kind of dragging it out where it's at any point he seems like, well, you know,
he would do it any time, multiple times. He says, I'm just going to kill myself tonight and she'll chat and talk them out of it.
Like, just wait a little bit and I'm going to get the money together to come to Canada.
She was selling like toys and like collectibles that she had trying to drum up the money to
get a plane ticket as their, you know, he's James is getting mad at her because it's taking
her so long to get the money together.
And he's sending her.
Yeah, when you read the logs, the chat logs, it's just so wild.
But eventually what their plan is, she gets enough money to buy a one-way ticket to
Halifax.
She packs a bag with, I think, what she had in her bag was one of those masks that covered
the lower part of your face and has a skull on it.
She had a little hat with a swastika on it, a leather trench coat, and then like a couple
books that were one was a comic book called, I think it was called like something the homicidal
maniac or something.
And then the other was this kind of, it's a, the author's name is Nietzsche,
and he writes this kind of, I guess, like ideological stuff.
But her plan is to get on an airplane
with this in her backpack, come to Halifax.
What they're going to do is,
James Gamble is gonna be at home in Halifax. He's going to kill his parents as she lands.
And then there's a third co-conspirator. His name is Randy Shepherd. He's a good friend of James.
Lindsey really has no contact with Randy. Other than I think they sent like one or two messages
back and forth, but Randy's role in all this is kind of almost like a cheerleader
encouraging it a little bit, but he's like going to the mall with James to kind of plan,
you know, where they're going to do it and how it's going to all work. So he's kind of helping
with logistics, but one of the things he was tasked with doing is going to the airport, picking
up Lindsey, taking her to James's house, because he had access to a car.
This whole situation, fortunately,
all fails at this point because when you travel internationally on a one-way ticket
with the next to no luggage or money,
it's gonna throw up the record too.
It doesn't go up.
It looks a little weird.
They're gonna question it.
Here's Lindsay describing the plot coming to an end.
First thing I had to do was get past customs.
And thing was I was asleep for pretty much the whole flight.
So I didn't really have the time to fill out the alarm.
So I just like filled it out as quickly as possible.
I didn't really think of a convincing cover story or anything.
So when I got the customs, the agent there, she thought something was off because I had
very little money with me, very few items, and then I only had a one-way ticket.
So I ended up being detained, and I had to speak to CBSA.
There was this one lady there.
She was just horrible.
She was just, she just kept questioning me about like what I was going to do and I'm just
like I'm here to, I'm here to, I'm here to meet my boyfriend, requiring to spend Valentine's
Day together.
And she's like what are you going to do though?
And I'm just saying they're thinking lady you seriously don't know when people do and valentine stay has it and that
long
and then from there i ended up
yes being detained
and they were going through like all of my stuff and i guess
they really didn't like some of the items i had with me
they didn't like my book
they didn't like the little hat that i had that have a swap to come on it
and so from there my books, they didn't like the little hat that I had that had a swap to cut on it.
And so from there, the police actually came and I ended up being arrested for uttering
threats.
When they arrested you, did they explain what was going on?
Did they explain that they knew of your plan?
They said that they knew what I was doing, that they had read through all of my logs and things
like that.
And it was very, very strange because I was arrested for uttering threats.
I did not utter any actual threats.
I knew the legal definition of a threat and I knew that I had done no such thing.
So I thought, okay, I might actually get away with this.
Girl.
Yeah.
It's like that set.
You hear people complain about air travel,
but her complaints about the Canadian border service agency.
It's like, they had all these questions.
They didn't like my clothes.
It's such an inconvenient thing.
That's an awful service.
It's horrible.
And she just kept asking me what we were going to do.
And she's insulting the lady being like hasn't been that long.
And it's like, crawl.
Like you know in your head that you are planning to murder people.
And this woman is caught onto you.
And you're like, oh, she's horrible.
And it's like, what?
What?
What?
That's so delusional.
It's like outrageous.
And she's like, they didn't like my stuff.
They didn't like your white supremacy stuff.
Yeah.
Like, gee, I wonder why.
Mm-hmm.
I forget the dollar amount, but I think she had like,
it was something like 25 bucks on her.
A couple books, trench coat, and yeah, but regardless at this point, the Canadian Border Service Agency basically got her, the police are coming, and this is where James leaves the story is.
In all this, what ends up happening is Lindsay's in a little room at the airport getting questioned. Randy Shepard,
James's friend, the third kind of co-conspirator, is out in the waiting area, like kind of waiting for her to,
you know, come out of security or whatever so he can drive her. He's kind of lingering around
way after her flight has cleared out and everyone else is off. Meanwhile, the police are researching
who the third is, who's James.
They're sending a team to James' house to try to talk to him.
They arrest Randy at the airport.
They send a team to James' house to confront him and talk to him.
I think he wasn't answering the phone.
They block off his neighborhood.
They send a vehicle up to James' front door.
I believe they are talking through a loudspeaker, like telling him to come out.
They hear one gunshot.
And that is the end of James's role in the story.
He died using one of the weapons they planned to bring to the mall with a self inflicted
gunshot. And he dies as far as how the police and border services caught on to them.
This is this whole other mystery within this story.
I won't get too deep into it, but in short, in Canada, we have this thing called Crime
Stoppers and it's a service where you can dial like a 1-800 number and report a crime
or give information related to a crime and you can get a reward from crime stoppers.
I don't know if you got that in the state.
We have something.
Yeah.
Okay. from crime stoppers. I don't know if you got that in the state. Yeah, we have something. Yeah, okay
So shortly after her arrest and this is making big news that this plot to commit a shooting was foiled
It comes out that a tip to crime stoppers is what just hours before she landed is what set off the whole thing and what alert at border service security to
the plot I Asked her about this, and Lindsay said, or actually before I asked her, one other thing that came is a lot of people were
saying before he killed himself, James Gamble called in the tip. And the news kind of caught on
to that story, and there's been a few articles that were written as if James kind of did the right
thing in his last moments. Which does doesn't really make sense. Like if you're going to if you're
going to do something wrong, like he was planning simply by killing yourself takes yourself out of
the equation. The client's jobbers tip would be irrelevant. But what Lindsey says when I asked her,
I said, do you think James called in the tip? Who do you think did it?
She told me that the tip, whoever called it in,
they didn't know very much.
They only really knew her first name
and that she was coming from the US.
So Lindsey suspected it was one of the many people
they told online about what they were planning.
That's what I wanted to do.
Yeah, because they were making, they were like starting to advertise it.
They had Tumblr posts where they were saying like, you know, February 14th that's going down
and there'd be like this kind of, almost looks like a movie post or kind of advertising
their mass shooting.
They were kind of promoting it online and not making much of a secret about it.
Wow.
So she believes that somebody who saw this sort of stuff that they were putting out online
that knew just a little bit about her maybe called it in, but she also tells me that the
police and border services didn't realize that a crime stoppers tip had come in until well
after they took her into custody.
It's not that they were there waiting for her.
She came through sketchy, they took her into custody
and then put two and two together after the fact
that it was also a tip about someone coming here
to kill people at a mall.
Wow.
But it's kind of a wild end.
And that's kind of where I come in.
So back at the beginning, I talk about at the mall
and I have to leave the mall. That's kind of like at this point, as this at the beginning, I talk about at the mall and I have to leave the mall.
That's kind of like at this point,
as this is going down, that the mall was evacuated.
So it's kind of wild, but what's,
I don't know if you've ever had an experience
with this sort of thing, but usually when someone pleads
guilty to a crime, they do so with an agreed statement
of facts, which is basically like, you know,
here's what happened. I did this that and the other thing. I'm guilty. And that's the end of it.
In Lindsay's case, she pled guilty, but she didn't provide an agreed statement of facts. She didn't
really tell anyone what she did. The way she told people what she did is by coming on my podcast and telling the whole story.
And she did this while she was awaiting trial, which is kind of crazy. I was like, I was kind of thinking as I was recording and putting this episode out like this.
She's supposed to go to court for this stuff and she's going to admit to it all in the podcast. But right after I released the episode,
I had our CMP, which is like our police, came to my house.
I don't know how they found me,
but they came to my house with this thing
called the production order, which is basically a warrant.
Yeah, and the order was like,
we want all of those recordings, everything she's ever sent you.
Oh my God, here.
Did she know who you were?
Yeah, and I was thinking, I'm guessing she didn't tell all the lawyer what she's
doing, but I think she, to her own fault, I'm sure she made her own decisions throughout
all this.
I'm going to, even the story of how she comes to pleading guilty is interesting.
I'll play this. This will be one last clip, I'll play.
This is her describing her decision to plead guilty.
I had mentioned really the only evidence against her was these Facebook logs where they planned
everything out.
The whole trial kind of rested on whether or not those logs could be admissible.
What's's this? I knew that mine was a very, very odd case.
And then the bulk of the evidence is just the Facebook box.
There was very little other concrete evidence aside from that.
So I thought I actually had a pretty good chance.
My lawyer seemed pretty confident that he would be able to get those blogs excluded because the police had made several mistakes in acquiring that evidence. So I
was very, very hopeful at first. I remember my lawyer telling me about the judge that
we ended up having for the case, and he really did not sound hopeful about it, given what
he knew about that judge. But I thought we should take our chances with it anyway.
I just wanted to see what would happen on that particular date where we were supposed
to try and get the log included.
Of course, that ended up being shot down and that's when I changed my plea to guilty.
So it didn't think through things logically, which is like an understatement obviously, but it's like that
And then you think about like she's talking about on the plane ranch
He's like oh I fell asleep, which it's like you fell asleep on the way to your mass murder that's wild
And then she was like and I didn't really come up with a cover story and it's like you didn't play in that part like I'm glad you didn't but like
What is your brain doing and then it's like this? She's like yeah, I'm glad you didn't, but like, what is your brain doing?
And then it's like this, she's like, yeah,
nice figured, we should see, like what?
Yeah, and there's a lot of other, yeah,
it's like she made the legal decision.
Now we'll take our chances,
we'll let me handle this.
Up to this point, I've been bang on
because this is all played out,
but yeah, but that's one,
like in putting these series together and releasing it,
it's ethically, like, I think,
if she had have done any of this stuff,
I don't think I would have wanted to make this series,
but since some parts of it are so laughable,
it makes it easier to talk about, but at the same time,
it's people like this that actually make it happen,
and fortunately, in Canada, like, I think this story
is an ad, like, as you really get into the story
It's an ad for how effective gun control can be
Because in their earliest points when they're talking about committing the shooting
They talk about will we do it at your place in Nova Scotia or my place in Illinois
And the reason the only reason they decided to do it in Nova Scotia is James had access to guns that his father owned.
It was like a hunting rifle and a shotgun.
But both of the guns that they had and they didn't have enough money to buy really the anything better.
So it was pointless to go to Illinois and try to buy guns because we now have guns and we don't have money.
But the problem that they were running into and they're planning
is the only ammunition they had was ammunition designed for like shooting like birds and stuff.
So they needed to buy different ammunition for the shotgun that would be powerful enough to
like kill a deer or slash kill a human. But neither, well, Lindsey obviously, James also didn't
have a firearms license, so he couldn't buy the ammunition
So he was going on Facebook and his different online places and any friends he had he was kind of asking like can you get
Ammunition like do you have a firearm license? They couldn't find anyone to get them ammunition
So in the end what their plan was was to go to the mall with a
This old hunting rifle and a handful of
bullets in a shotgun with the type of bullet or shell that would be designed to kill again
like a cartridge or something.
So unless they shot you point blank, you wouldn't have died from that anyway.
And Lindsay is at the time that she did this, I don't know, like 95 pounds, that shotgun,
if she had a shot at once,
she probably would have been on her back,
like somebody on top of her punching her out.
Exactly.
Yeah, and it was also even the rifle
was the kind where you would shoot it,
and then you have to take a bullet out of your pocket,
put it in the gun, reload it, shoot it again.
Like this is not like a mass shooting
that you see in TV
with like military, US kind of guns.
Like several rounds at a time.
I'm thankful that they were so bad at planning this,
but also what's like, how do you,
I just don't understand how they put this together.
Yeah, but that's kind of the question.
Is this like a larp that has gone way too far?
Yeah.
If you read their chats, there's this mix of fantasy and reality,
in sexting and sending nude photos.
But everything is in this context of,
and we're going to go kill a bunch of people at the mall.
If it had to just, yeah, if it had to just end it at some point,
it'd be like, whoa, that's like a really sick fantasy these two had.
But this was to the point where like he was a boat to kill his parents,
but his dad stayed home from work so he couldn't do it.
She got on the plane like they had the intent.
I have no question they had the intent to go and kill people. But the other thing is even if she made it to his house,
how were they didn't have like any way to get to the mall with these big guns, they would have
had to like get on the bus and they also had plans of bringing Molotov cocktails like the beer bottle
with gas in it. You can't take like a duffel bag of cans of gas
on the bus with a shotgun.
And that's, I think that's all due to one,
the fact that like clearly they are who they are.
And two, I think it was because they had
two completely different reasonings for doing this.
Like they came together to completely different
messed up people and he just wanted to hurt people and then kill himself.
That's what it sounds like. That's why he was just always ready to do it because he was like,
this really doesn't mean a lot to me. I just want to hurt people, I want to cause chaos and then I want to leave.
And she was trying to find this like, meaning.
Big meaning and this big message to send to the world.
And it's like, so they were meeting
on these completely conflicting ideas.
So it was never going to actually come to fruition
the way that I think especially that she thought it would.
Yeah, it's certainly.
And it's like, you got it bang on.
Like during the planning, whenever they would come into trouble,
like maybe there'd be a sale on airfare and he would be like, you know, buy a ticket now.
And if she didn't have the money at one point, this is what happened.
And he was, you know, so upset, he's like, I'm just going to kill myself.
I'm just going to do it today.
It's not worth waiting.
And she talks them off the ledge.
Yeah.
The next little issue comes up, he's going to kill himself.
She talked them off the ledge, like wait for me.
But meanwhile, she is like writing and drafting drafting like manifestos with this vision like everyone is going to remember me.
But she'd change your opinion so she'd rewrite it and never ended up releasing it. It ended up
she had a manifesto sort of thing basically done save. There's a draft on like her tumblr blog
with a plan of maybe finishing it when she was at James'
and scheduling it to publish after they did their shooting.
But obviously they didn't get there.
Now I think people who hear her talk and hear her story are probably take comfort in knowing
she's in prison.
She actually got a much harsher sentence than I think a lot of people would have expected.
She in Canada, she got life in prison, which for attempted murder, it would be, that's
a unique punishment or a unique sentence.
Life in prison in Canada is 25 years, but she's eligible for parole.
I think about it in another five, I think she has no parole eligibility for 10 years maybe,
so I think in another five years I think she has no parole eligibility for 10 years maybe. So I think another
five years she can apply. Yeah, but there's some weird aspects to it. So here's one is she was never
charged with a crime in the United States. She's not a Canadian. So what happens is when she gets
out of prison, she gets deported out of Canada to the US, where she has no criminal record. Oh great.
There's no things. Not, great. No thanks.
Not facing charges.
Yeah.
And when you look through the history of situations like this, it seems like people who
are international, international inmates in Canadian prisons often get, um, paroles pretty
quickly.
So that way we can boot them out of here and not pay.
So it's like that's going to be an interesting layer to this is when she walks away,
Scott free in five years to, you know, I don't know how much faith you have in Canada's
rehabilitation system, but a lot of people are repeat offenders over here. So I don't know,
it's interesting to think about that side of things. Yeah, that's a scary aspect of it. Yeah,
let's not put our heads there. Yeah, let's not go there.
I want to lead us into a mentee B.
Yeah, and just to set the scene for that,
since she's been in prison,
she's been in the news for sending neo-Nazi essays
to this kind of like infamous old man, Nazi,
in the United States.
He published a bunch of them in some Nazi groups
and you may find articles about that.
So she's still in that world.
So that's a little...
I don't know.
You would think that maybe they would keep an eye
on what she's writing in prison.
I think in prison they can't keep an eye on much.
I feel like it's a mess over here with how our prisons work and it's with overcrowding
and prisoners escaping and getting out ways and you know, and reoffending immediately,
basically, it seems like it's, there's justifiably a lot of criticism on Canada's justice system.
One other aspect of this, I'm curious what you'll say about this.
And you may not have come across across much of this, but I certainly have.
Because since publishing those episodes, I hear from so many people who ask me like,
do you have photos of her? Do you have, in my episode, she talks about how she wrote a book
about her crime. It's kind of like a dramatization where it's like, she writes a, a wrote a book where if
she didn't get caught on the border as to what would happen.
And we talk a little bit about that in the episode.
So I've had a lot of people write me asking for that, but I've also had a lot of people
writing me who wanted me to, you know, what's her address?
How can I reach her?
And some of these people will have like profile picks that are like her image and stuff. And I can, I can confidently
tell you that when she did this, a part of her motivation was to generate like interest
in her and maybe a bit of fandom. You only need to search her name on Twitter or any kind of dark place and you'll find
that Lindsey Sivana Rath fans.
Absolutely mind boggling, truly.
And you just see the cycle can let go because that's what it is.
It just begins again.
Like the, I feel like the internet started as this like this great idea, this great place of like knowledge
and sharing and communicating.
It'll be so beautiful.
My goodness.
Has it taken just a nose dive?
The other thing is, at this point, there's no FBI guys on our phones.
Everybody's like, oh, the FBI guy is listening to me in my car.
I'm like, the FBI guy is not there.
The ad sales team is there to sell you some chick filet or something, but they're not watching
what you're doing on the internet. No. No, but just as a one-side tangent, do you
believe our phones are watching and listening to us for marketing purposes?
Yes. Okay. I was at a youth bookstore last week. Okay. My as we're looking
around, there's this book that my son sees on the
shelf and he pulls it off and he's like, oh, I read this in school. It's called, I think it was called
Catcher Nots and it's about cats that go to space or something. It's a catcher Nots. I saw this at
school. This is a good book. And I was like, oh, yeah, I never heard of it, but I'm not going to buy
it now. It's seven bucks. We put it back on the shelf, walk away. Literally like three hours later,
that's the first time I've ever heard it catched her knots. Never said it in my life before that.
Hours later, I'm like sliding through Facebook,
Doom's scrolling, whatever.
And sure enough, an ad pops up for like a new catcher knots book.
Yeah.
That happened to me the other day.
I was, we got, we were literally getting cheesecake factory.
Like Alina texted me her order. I put the other day. I was, we got, we were literally getting cheesecake factory. Like, Elena texted me her order.
I put the order on.
I'm driving to cheesecake factory.
We're talking about cheesecake.
Like, we're actively going to get it.
And then while we were waiting for the, the curbside order,
I'm going through my Instagram and I get an ad for cheesecake.
Like the cheesecake factory.
I'm like, I don't need that.
I'm here.
You've done your job.
There's no way they're not.
It's so creepy.
Constantly.
It is creepy.
But I guess ultimately, the internet serves people
for direct advertising to us and provides a platform
for people that complain about politics
and a platform for people to provide mass shootings.
Yeah.
Is there anything else good?
I think we got to get rid of it.
It's even like when it comes to like research and stuff now,
I'm like, yeah, just look for a book.
Like I'm like, I don't need it anymore.
I think we should go back to the drawing board
when it comes to the internet.
It's not working, guys.
Yeah, bring you back to a razor phone.
There's a comedy clip that resonated with me.
I think it was, I could be wrong. I think it was Bill Burr is the comedian. But he was making,
he was making a joke about people coming to him with conspiracy theories and telling them like,
you know, this is, you know, whatever, 9-11 is real, like the sort of thing. And he's,
he says, my, my, the way I handle it now
is if anyone wants to tell me about something they heard,
I just stopped them and say, did you hear it in a library?
Yep, yeah.
And if they didn't hear it in a library,
I don't want to hear it.
I don't want to hear it.
I love that.
He's like, at least there, there's like some mild editorial
oversight of what gets in a book and what gets in there.
Where the internet has none of that.
So unless it's in a library, I don't even want to know about it.
It's a good way to do it.
It is.
I like it because especially at this point, it's like anybody can say anything.
And it's fact and often do.
And often do.
So it's like, yeah, this is what you hear happening.
And it's like this little haven for really angry, really lonely and really violent people, unfortunately.
Yeah, and the trend is only getting worse. And this is something that came up briefly in
Lindsay's and James's story, but I see it often now, more often than not, is when someone commits
a match shooting, they oftentimes they want to have it out there,
they want people to know what they did. And in Lindsay and James's case, they had planned to take
photos and upload them as they were kind of doing it. So that way in real-time people could see,
but what is kind of like the new movement is people will live stream themselves doing it. And over
the last few years, there's been multiple mass shooters
who had like a GoPro on filming and live streaming it
or their phone note as they were doing it.
And I think that only serves,
I don't know, it encouraged more people
to do it in tremendous spectacular, horrific ways.
Exactly.
And it's the aesthetic of it all.
Like the internet is very much about like aesthetic
and like curating something that isn't real.
And it's like, so these people just,
they can create like, she created this aesthetic
of like, I'm school shooter chic.
And that's what I had.
Like it just all fits into it.
And that's why they were so concerned
with the aesthetic of it all.
Like, what are we gonna wear?
What are we gonna say?
Because I want to talk to about on the internet.
And so we have to make sure that it's cool
and that it fits within this aesthetic that we've created
or what are we doing?
And they didn't come up with the actual logistics of it
because what does that matter?
Yeah, fortunately.
And it's in now they're seen as, like despite all of it, because what does that matter? Yeah, fortunately. And it's in now they're seen as,
like despite all of the,
how they wanted it to be portrayed and stuff,
they are seen.
I think for who they really are,
which is sick people,
who I dare say are evil.
Yeah.
And I think it's that simple,
but it very easily could have been something all to get other different were it not for
I don't know maybe more lax security at the border at the airport that night. Yeah
Maybe like fortunately they didn't have the right
Firearms even if they if they got here, but it only takes no and someone to get
Something better in Canada. So many times, you'll hear of a mass shooting in Canada or some event, and it's just a gun
that was brought in from another country or modified or something.
But it was, this, I think, event is as close as it could have gotten.
And thankfully, since no one, no innocent victims were killed, it allows a semi-comfortable place to view this story
from above and kind of see what makes something
like this happen.
And it's not like in the end of your story,
you're gonna understand that you're probably gonna come
a bit closer to getting like,
what kind of people can end up in this situation.
Yeah, I'm right, piecing it together.
And I think, yeah, and I think the type of people
that end up in this situation probably live
in all our communities
We just don't know them because they're sitting in their parents' basements on their laptops
Stoying about something that happens seven years ago
Nobody else even remembers. Yeah, which is really scary. Absolutely. Wow. It's more of it
I would I dare say it's more of it. It is very certainly is
What a story and the fact again that we
Over here we had like no idea. No, like this was not a big story.
And the first time we heard of it was you bringing it up to us.
Yeah.
Yeah, that happens with a lot of Canadian stories.
I think the news cycle and almost the news ecosystem in Canada doesn't necessarily communicate
with other parts of the world.
So something that's a huge story here,
I'll do it on my podcast or something in people in the US
or anywhere else, they have no idea what I'm talking about.
But when you talk about the American cases,
everybody knows them, like, say, Adnon Sayed,
from cereal, like everybody in the world
would know that story.
But the Canadian equivalent to that, people be like,
what are you talking about?
Yeah, they'll be like, what are you talking about?
Never did that.
But this, with this when it happened at the mall and
Halifax, it was even in other parts of Canada, it's
probably not as well known as it is, as it is here, of course.
But I think just our style of reporting and the way
stories are told in the news, it just works a little bit
different here.
It's, I would say less dramatic as the dramatic as kind of the typical American style.
Sensation elastic.
Exactly. If this had happened in the US, the reporting would have been completely different.
There would have been in court photos and 911 calls aired.
It would have been very focused on her and her looks.
Yeah.
Like, femme fait tel and all all that like it she would have been
named everything she probably wanted to be named she would have been allowed it as basically.
But it didn't really happen here. Which is not the way to do it. So it's really good.
Yeah, but the book was thrown at her and I think that makes a strong statement to other people
who would plan something like this, but I do think the type of person who will plan something like this is not going to care about a life sentence.
That's true. That's very true, because I mean they were both planning to shoot each other at the end of this.
Yeah, their plan was to lose their virginity and then commit suicide together.
Oh my.
As it's all happening.
So that's a pretty ambitious way to go out.
That's very ambitious.
Also, cool of her to be so mean about the lady
at the airport saying how long has it been?
Yeah.
Oh.
Pot me kettle, right?
Come on.
Come on.
But I just think that clip of her talking
about the girl at border services, she was genuinely
outraged at how awful this girl was to her.
And it's almost like Lindsey would just
want to step away from saying, like, just let me go kill people
at the mall.
You're giving me such a hard time over nothing.
Like this woman's just good at her job.
And suspect doing that.
She got what you are actually going to do and are planning to do.
And that's one of those situations, too, where she has these moments of being so like
self-reflective in a way, like when she talks about how she had a very normal childhood and
nothing really happened, like there was no real big trauma in her home or anything like that.
And she says like, so you never would have known that I go down, like there's no real big trauma in her home or anything like that. And she says, like, so you never would have known
that I go down, like there's no red flags to say,
I would go down this path.
And it's like, that's like really self-aware
in a weird way, like just being like, yeah,
this is where I am, and I don't know why.
And then she'll do those things where it's like,
God, this like, this woman wouldn't let me just like,
get out of the airport and go murder people.
And it's like, how are you so dense in that scenario,
but can actually reflect on your own,
like almost break your own fourth wall in another sentence?
Yeah. One last little story to tell you,
and this one was kind of wild too,
is when she, I was releasing my episodes just as her trial was happening.
She ends up as you hear, she pleads guilty.
After the Facebook chat was deemed
admissible as evidence, she pleads guilty to the crime. A couple months later, she was to be sentenced.
I attended her sentencing as well, and I think she saw me in there. And right after the sentencing
hearing is over, I go home, it's maybe 25 minutes earlier that she was actually sentenced to my phone rings and it's
the jail.
It's like, oh my god.
So I answer it.
It's so stressed.
Yeah, and I'm like, hello, and it's Lindsay.
And I'm thinking like, people were thinking she'd get like seven years in jail.
She gets a life sentence, the 25 years.
So I'm thinking like, oh my god, like this is going to be an intense phone call. And I was like, oh, hi, Lindsay. And I'm like, I think I said something
like, I don't think I need to ask how you're doing today. And she said, well, let me tell
you, when you go to the courtroom, or when you go to the courthouse, they got to take them
from jail to the courthouse, when you go to the courthouse, they have a Tim Hortons in
there. Every time I go there, I get to get a chicken sandwich. When you go to the courthouse, they have a Tim Hortons in there.
Every time I go there,
I get to get a chicken sandwich.
Today, they gave me a chicken salad sandwich.
On the worst day of my life,
I get a chicken salad sandwich.
And she was like raging that they gave her
not grilled chicken, but chicken salad.
And I'm like, oh, yeah.
And I was like, oh, and then,
and you got a life sentence.
And she's like, yeah, she's like, well, it's like you don't get old often and get to
get food like that.
She's like, she couldn't let it go.
I want it.
She's like, yeah, yeah, that sucks.
But like, I got chicken salad.
But to play Devils Advocate though, there is a huge difference between a chicken sandwich
and a chicken salad.
That is very true.
That is very true.
It's chicken salad.
Looks like a chicken sandwich that someone else ate.
Just for chicken salad, I love it while you taste.
It's a little good chicken salad.
It tastes good, it doesn't look good though.
I will admit that.
But weighing it against, you know, got the wrong sandwich,
got 20 more years in prison than I was expecting.
I think the sandwich wouldn't be my priority.
Yeah, I don't think I would even remember the sandwich
to be quite honest.
Wow.
I also don't think I'd just be calling people.
No.
No.
No.
Especially people you don't like actually know.
But I feel like that's good.
I'd say maybe you would call your family or something.
But that's kind of her M.O.
Like that's her life is just like
latching on to people,
but she has these like strange relationships with.
I think the reason she called me is because she probably
wanted to hear what was being reported in the news,
and she probably didn't want to call her mom
and be like,
you Google me mom and see what they're saying.
But she was asking me, and on occasion, I don't anymore, but for a while they're on occasion, I'd get a call
from her. Just that random when something major in the world happened. And she would ask
me, you know, what is it being reported in the news? Can you read me an article like a boat?
My appeal being denied, you know, that sort of thing, but it's bizarre. Man.
Wow.
Jordan, thank you for bringing that story to us because,
seriously, again, a lot of people probably haven't heard it.
And thank you for bringing us those clips because those are just,
you, there's no way you could just tell us about those clips.
Like you have to hear it and you have to hear a voice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't know.
People wouldn't believe the story if you told it with the clips.
Now I appreciate you having me on.
I'm a little star struck Elena.
I looked at the New York Times best sellers list today.
And so I fell a podcaster.
So congratulations.
Thank you so much. Thank you. I think as of today, we congratulations. I'll congratulate you on that.
I think as of today, we're recording this
on the 23rd of September.
Number one today.
Today, number one in the Wall Street Journal, baby.
What did I say?
I said New York Times, I think.
I'm number two on the New York Times Festival,
or at least.
But technically, number one, if you asked me.
I was a both too.
That's just amazing.
Did you ever see the day? Because I could probably project my own kind of memories of it. I've never been to a book that. But you actually do this stuff.
I honestly, I never thought I would finish it one and two, if I finished it, I was like,
okay, I'm just going to put that on the shelf and be like, wow, I finished that.
So there's that by never thought it'd be published.
I feel like I know a rock star and let me read you why.
This was a headline I saw in the news,
and I just, you couldn't make up a more amazing headline.
A headline, this is in USA Today, it says,
morbid podcaster and autopsy technician,
Alaina Irghart makes killer debut on Best Sellers list.
I love the words.
I love it.
It's just amazing.
So she's a podcaster, a morbid podcaster and an autopsy tech who has a bestseller book
It's like are you real? You're a geodude like you're like a new I don't know if you grew up with GI Joe
But you're like this new like member of like Cobra or something. Oh
The bag. I'll take that
We were just talking about GI Joe this morning. That's a weird. Yeah, we were that's weird full circle moment
We are oh you're I listen in on your phones with the marketing people see you knew it We were just talking about GI Joe this morning. That's a weird, that's a weird, full circle moment.
Weird.
Oh, you're, I listen in on your phones
with the marketing people.
See you knew it.
Call back.
All right.
Well, it's been a pleasure.
I'm always happy to chat with you girls.
I want to have you on that time soon.
Yeah, we would love to.
And you're always welcome back here.
Done.
Awesome.
Three, two, one.
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