Morbid - Episode 418: The Murders of Julie Crocker & Paula Menendez

Episode Date: January 16, 2023

In February 2007 Christopher Little came home to find a stranger hanging from the rafters in his garage. Things only got worse when he entered his home and found his estranged wife Julie Crocker savagely murdered in their bedroom. Luckily their two young children, who were also in the home, were left unharmed. But who was this stranger in the garage? Had she done this to Julie and then become so distraught afterward that she ended her own life? Chris wasn't sure who she was, but when he was told that the woman was Paula Menendez, ex-wife of Julie's new boyfriend he was pretty sure that was the case. The only problem was that detectives weren't so confident in Chris's assumption and felt like there was something very off about his entire story.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, Prime members, you can listen to morbid, early, and ad-free on Amazon music. Download the app today. You're listening to Immorbid Network Podcast. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of Wondries Podcast American Scandal. Our newest series looks at the Kids for Cash Scandal, a story about two judges who stood accused of making millions of dollars in a brazen scheme that shattered the lives of countless children. Listen to American scandal on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, weirdo, I am Ash.

And I am Alena. And this is more bad. This is... Yeah, it's that. Down there, that's what I'm making. That's what I'm already... You got it. This is... Yeah, that's that. Yeah, that's all I'm gonna make. That's all I'm gonna make. That's all I'm gonna make. You got it. We are crazed individuals today,

just last minute holiday shopping. Oh, my fucking god. Yeah. Consumerism, man. Yeah. And by the time you guys are hearing this, it's well over and you're probably like, you're like, whoof.

Why are you holiday shopping? People are like twitching in their cars. So like, no, we have like 365 more days until we have to do that again. Honestly, I'm gonna start 365 days. Like I'm gonna start 365 four days. That's the thing. I always say I'm gonna be early

and I was slightly early a little bit this time, but then I teetered off. Like I started strong and then I just, everything got chaotic at the end. I just blocked myself like this Christmas. I don't know what I was doing. Well, I know what I was doing. I was gonna say, I know what you were doing.

It's just been a lot. It's been a busy, busy second half of the year for us. So I think the holidays just, they just compounded it up. They're here. Yeah, Drew's like, I got you this much. And I was like, what? What did you do? Return some of that.

What you mean? I don't have that much for you. I don't have that. But then I thought that last night. And then I came here and I've hidden some presents here. And I was like, oh, shit. Yeah, that's true. I have those.

You forgot like one pretty one significant present. Diesel present. Yeah. And then another one is coming after Christmas. And I'm so teared because it's it's it's Drew's big present. So Seth Rogan, I have a bone to pick with you. No, not actually. It's my own fault for ordering it.

Lee. I don't have a bone to pick for you. I would never have a bone to pick with Seth Rogen. I love that man's who doesn't, you know? Probably people that suck, I guess. I mean, there's people who hate everybody, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, well, yeah, so that's, here we are. That's that speaking of hate. Yeah. Yeah. Let's get it. I hate the man in this story. Yeah, so there you go. That was a good segue. Perfect. Let's start.

We're going not in the way back machine, but we're going back to the early arts. We're going to ash-tastic early arts. Hell yeah, hell yeah. On February 12, 2007. 2017. I was going to say 2007, but that sounded weird. But that's where our story begins.

And on that day, a forensic Toronto caller was on the phone with 9-1-1 begging for help. The man on the line was 35-year-old Christopher Little, and he was explaining to the dispatcher that there was a dead woman hanging from the rafters in his garage. Oh my god. And he had no idea who this woman was. What? And then as he walked into his home, things only got worse. He made his way to the bedroom. He shared with his estranged wife, Julie Crocker, and discovered her dead as well, having been brutally murdered. What the fuck? She was lying on the bathroom floor, excuse me, lying on the

bedroom floor next to the bed with her throat cut open, viciously. My God. Nearly to the point of decapitation. Oh. He immediately assumed that whoever the stranger was hanging in the garage had done this to his wife and then done that to herself afterwards.

And he explained that theory when police arrived on scene. Oh, what a, I, arriving home to find a stranger hanging in your garage. Can you, don't imagine that. I, but I cannot. Like what? That's, you would see that on TV, like on a crazy TV show.

Yeah, we'd say it would be like, that's what that would never have. That's too much. No. It was an unbelievable scene to walk into for any party. Yeah. But once investigators did, they immediately had questions. Oh. While Chris Little was convinced he knew what happened, trained investigators felt that there was something off here, not only with his story, but also with

the crime scene. Because the first thing that raised eyebrows on scene was the fact that Chris had no idea who this woman was. That seemed very likely. Yeah. They're, excuse me, seemed very unlikely. Unlikely, yes. And the way she was found also raised on eyebrows, because the woman was discovered not only with a rope around her neck, but around her ankles as well.

Oh. That's pretty unusual in a typical case of suicide. Yeah. Then they found out that the relationship between the two dead women, women, excuse me, and Chris Little was also incredibly complicated, and that this woman in the garage wasn't necessarily the stranger that Chris had made her out to be. Within hours, his story was starting to crumble, and his story was starting to crumble around him. Excuse me, I can't talk about that. And investigators were pretty sure that this man

who had quote unquote stumbled upon this scene and called 911, he was their killer. Oh, now let's get back to the 911 call. It came in from 95 Larkin Avenue in Markham at 3.25am again on February 12, 2007. And the York Regional Police and Paramedics were on the scene within 7 minutes. They were ready to go. First on the scene was Constable Michael Moulville, and when he arrived, he discovered the body of Paula Menendez in the garage. Only she wasn't hanging from the rafters anymore. Her body was laid halfway in the backseat of Chris Little's SUV. What?

The SUV had been partially backed into the garage and was still actually running when the officers arrived, which made sense because he had gotten into this. Oh, this symbol to pile of scene. Got out of the car, ran home. Okay, I can see where the car's still running. Sure. Mulville noted that Menendez's lips and skin were blue and her eyes were dilated, direct quote.

When he checked for her pulse, there was none to be found. And as he continued searching through the garage and the exterior of the home, his partner, Constable Stephanie Hunter, was inside. Hunter immediately found Christopher Little standing at the top of the stairs, still actually on the phone with 911. But once he saw that the police had arrived,

he hung up with the dispatcher and led constable Stephanie Hunter to the bedroom, excuse me, where 33-year-old Julie Crocker was. He told the officer that he had actually moved Julie from the bed to the floor and had attempted CPR at the 911 dispatcher's request. So when he got home, she was actually on the bed when he discovered her, and then he moved her to the floor to do CPR. Okay.

He also let this officer know that their two young daughters were home and had been during the murder. Murderers. Oh my God. Luckily, the children were taken from the home quickly before they were able to see anything. It doesn't appear that they woke up at any time during this.

Do you know how old they were? They were younger. I want to say that they were like two and four. Oh, so like little. They were little, little girls. But luckily they didn't see anything and they were young enough to the point where they didn't really understand what was happening. Yeah, because they were sleeping. It seems like they were sleeping. Yeah. They were taken to stay with Julie's relatives until the detectives could figure out everything with Chris. Okay.

Now, once the scene was surveyed, the detectives sat down with him and wanted to get his whole story. Yeah. Chris told them that he and his wife were actually in the process of getting divorced, red flag number one. Oh, yeah. And that they were sharing the home where she'd been discovered. He arrived home just before 330 that morning

and immediately discovered Paula, that again, he said he did not know this woman by name. He said that once he found her, he cut her down in an attempt to revive her. And that was why she was late in the backseat when police arrived. Okay. When he was unable to revive her, he said he ran inside and found his wife called 911,

attempted CPR as he was instructed to do so, and they knew the rest. When asked again, if he was sure that he did not know who this woman in the garage was, he told the investigators know he did not. The story was strange. Yeah. Why would he start reviving a stranger before he knew that his wife estranged or not and two little kids were okay? Yeah. You found this woman in your garage and you're immediately like, oh, let me tend to this woman who I don't know, who I don't

know why she's here and what's going on, but my wife and children are in the house. And let me not check on them but take care of this first. Yeah. I'm sorry that's not gonna be your first instinct. That wouldn't be my first instinct. I can tell you that. I don't think that would be many people's first instinct. I think most people would run into the home and make sure that their family was okay.

Yeah, I would say so. But that's just my opinion. Yeah. That's my opinion. That's it. That's it. But according to the Canadian criminal code, investigators had to obtain a warrant before

they searched the house and carried out a forensic analysis on the victims. So while they waited, they sat up a command post nearby and they continued questioning Chris. He only explained more about the living situation and how he and Julie were sharing the home during their separation as they both kind of figured out where to go separately. From the sounds of it, it seems like whoever had the kids stayed at home with them to kind of keep their routine normal. Okay.

While the other person stayed at an apartment or in Julie's case, possibly with her boyfriend Rick. Okay. Now once they obtained the search warrant to search Chris and Julie's home, they found out the identity of the woman in the garage officially. 34-year-old Paula Menendez, they would soon learn that she was actually somewhat connected to Julie and Chris. Paula, and this is a little convoluted, so Paula was the ex-wife of Julie Crocker's new boyfriend, Rick Ralph. Okay, got it? Yep.

So was what Chris was saying true? Had Paula in some kind of fit of rage or jealousy broke into Julie and Chris's home to exact her revenge on Julie. And then because she was so distraught and did her own life on the garage? Probably not. Police had seen crazier scenarios play out,

but still something about this situation was telling them instinctually to look harder into Chris. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I could see that being the case they were thinking, but something about it was just too messy. Yeah, it's like you can sit there and say, yeah, like that is a, that scenario has played out probably billions of times. Yeah, and some fortunately in some kind of way times. Yeah, in some way. In some kind of way, some kind of roundabout way. But like, even just listening to that scene, from over here, I'm like, I don't know about that.

Yeah. And just his reactions are bothering me. They're strange, they will only get stranger. Oh, good. So the more and more they learned about the victims, as the morning went on, because this is literally all happening within the day that these two bodies are found. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of Wondries Podcast

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So they're learning more and more, interviewing more and more, and the more validated they started to feel in their suspicions of Chris as the day went on. Though Paula and Rick had ended their marriage, they learned that things ended pretty amicably, and it was actually Paula who had initiated the divorce months earlier. Oh wow, she wasn't happy that things had ended how they had, but she knew that it was the right decision for the both of them. Julie and Chris had also ended their marriage a few months before. And Chris was telling the detectives that their split was also amicable, but the police weren't so sure. And while they were learning more and more about the people involved in this

case, they were only coming up with more questions. Number one, why would Paula, who initiated a divorce from her husband, only become jealous and violently enraged when he started dating Julie. If she was the one to initiate the divorce. Two, why would she tie her own feet together before hanging herself? Yeah, and that would make it hard. And more importantly, why wasn't she covered in blood if she had just cut a woman's throat? Yeah. There was not a single drop of blood found on Paula.

Yeah. Not a single drop. Three, one of the weirdest aspects of all of this. What was Chris Little doing at his estranged wife's home at three o'clock in the morning? If it was her time to be at the house, what the hell was he doing there at witching hour? Yeah.

That's a, that's possibly the best point. He's the one where you're just showing up. He's the one sitting there saying, like, we split our time with the kids and share the house. You arrived at three o'clock in the morning and we'll get into later what he says he was doing. His explanation, I'm not even gonna tell it to you right now,

I gotta wait until we get there, makes no fucking sense. Yeah, I bet it doesn't. And that whole entire morning, the way that he tries to reason a doubt, I'm like, you're cooked. No. Anyways, number four,

Julian Chris' two children were home at the time, but other than telling the responding officer that they were there, he made no attempt to check on them himself. And we know this. That's for a while to me. We know this. Since both girls were home,

one would think that they would have woken up from hearing some kind of a struggle and would have gone to their father when he got home or that when he arrived, he would have checked on them. I just, I would have, the first thing I would have done is check on the kids. Absolutely. That would have been the first thought. As a person who is a Ryan in your home, your first thought should be go to your kids. And even if it's not your first thought, like that's questionable.

Which is quite a lot. But, you know, maybe it's not your first thought, like that's questionable. But you know, maybe you check on your wife first, then you find her in that state and you still don't go check on your children. Yeah, none of that makes sense. If this stranger broke into your home to exact some kind of revenge on you and your wife, would she not also exact that revenge with your children?

Or maybe, you gotta go check on them. Yeah, you gotta go find out. Well, we know neither of those things happened because everything that happened in the house from the time Chris called 911 is recorded. Everything, everything. You can hear the dog barking. You can hear officer hunters arrival.

You can hear the paramedics discussing Julie State not once did a child wake up and not once was a child checked on until the officers got there and did it themselves. Jesus. So with all that being said, the primary theory and detectives minds was that Chris Little had kidnapped Paula and brought her back to he and Julie's home where he then killed both women and staged the scene to make it look like a murder suicide.

Holy shit. How fucking bonkers. That's so complex. And the thought was that he was so enraged about his wife moving on to Rick Ralph that he was taking both women from Rick. Jesus. And the theory was only supported by the fact that there was a crumpled up photo of Julian Rick found next to Julie's body. What? Which you could see that being like him, being the angry ex wife, being the angry ex wife, absolutely, or him being the angry,

a strange husband, it goes your way. Yeah. But it also goes, it plays right into like, he staged this. Of course. Because that's fucking ridiculous. Yeah. There was a secondary theory that Chris had intended

to actually kill Rick and had gone to his home to kill him But didn't realize that Rick didn't live there anymore and when he found Paula He just kind of like switched gears. Wow. I lean more toward the first theory Yeah, honestly, I lean more towards that too I think this was his plan all along was to get Paula and make it look like she had done this That's what I think I don't think I think he was his plan all along was to get Paula and make it look like she had done this. That's what I think. I don't think, I think he was trying to hurt Rick and I think he was trying to hurt these two women. Yeah, because I think it was his perfect scenario

which is like he says. Everyone loses. He's like, he says, hurt Rick, but also make it so that it's a totally outside scenario from him in a top spot for you. Like he said, everybody loses. Exactly. So either way, the very same day that Chris called 911

and everything had been discovered, detectives were actually able to get a warrant for his arrest. And that afternoon, he was arrested on two counts of first degree murder. Wow, I bet he never saw that coming so quickly. Sure did. He had wrapped all that up.

Yeah, he had an at all. No. And just wait until you hear the shit that was found. Oh boy. I mean, the fact that Paula didn't have any blood on her at all, how did you think? How did you not think that through? I mean, it's like you didn't, but.

And this is just such a wild scenario, wild. Like two women, like what the fuck is wrong with you? And these are young women. They were 33 and 34. And like at least one of them is a mother, the young children, like the mother of your young children, like what the fuck is wrong with you? What are you doing?

What are you doing? God, Chris Watts. Seriously. Fuck this Chris. Fuck this Chris and fuck Chris Watts. But the plan, the plan didn't really work. So at least there's that. And as Chris was being arrested outside of the home,

neighbors actually stood by watching in shock. And according to a Globe and Mail article, quote, one resident was overheard telling a neighbor, I moved from Scarborough to get away from this crap. Oh, like, I love that that's what I hear. My God. Geez. How dare we? Wow.

Now, before we get into the rest of the nitty gritty, I did obviously want to touch on both victims' lives before they were taken by this abominable man. Yeah. Chris and Julie had been married for 10 years before this. Oh my God. And had actually pretty much known each other their entire lives because they both grew up in Markham, which is a city in Ontario, wearing Canada.

Chris had grown up on a dairy farm and his father Barry actually used that farm to operate his small dairy business. Chris's family was pretty close knit. They were super involved in the community. And Julie Crocker also grew up in a close knit family. She was one of three children to parents Judy and Jim, and she was super close with her two sisters Stephanie and Jill.

And then together they were all super close with their cousins and extended family. During the summers the sisters would spend months in Vermont with their aunt, uncle and cousins. I love this. It sounds like our family, we're close, we all are with like cousins and everything. Julie had started dating Chris in high school. They were both students at Markham District High. And when they both graduated, Julie went off to the University of Western Ontario. But they actually stayed a couple while she was at college and made things work long distance. When she was finished with college, she and Chris married in 1997, and for a

while, they both just wanted to separate, of focus on their separate careers. Julie got a job in 2002 with Rogers Media, which was an is a Toronto-based sports media and brand consultancy. And she worked in ad sales. One year later in 2003, she became a mom and the couple became parents to their first daughter. And a year later, they would have a second daughter. In addition to all of that, Julie and Chris were also very involved volunteers for the Markham fair,

which used to be organized by Chris' father, Barry. So this has like such a small town feel to it. Really does. It's one of the country's oldest fairs actually, and Julie was so dedicated to everything she could do for it. Everyone remembered her in every aspect of life as, quote, a devoted, diligent, and hardworking team player who touched so many lives in so many ways.

They said whether it was getting through school, raising her two children or the volunteer work she did, she gave everything her all. Oh. And Paula Menendez was also from Marcom and had grown up there. She'd actually originally been born in Argentina and had a twin sister Carolina as well as an older sister Claudia.

Their parents were Monica and Jamie Menendez and their family was also incredibly close. Monica and Jamie actually wanted to move their family to Canada while the kids were still so young to escape the violence going on in Argentina. Wow. Which only makes this case all the more tragic. Paula and Julie had drive as a commonality. After Paula graduated from college, she got a job as a physiotherapist and went on to work for Pivot Physiotherapy Clinic. All of her coworkers were obsessed with her.

Like she was beloved to everybody's life that she touched. They said she was not only a skilled worker, but a wonderful person who, quote, loved to laugh. She loved jokes and she had a laugh that was completely infectious. Oh, it just always makes me so sad. So senseless. Yeah. Like the these two murders.

It really is. These were both like beautiful, involved in their community. Right kind caring. Like what have gone on to do such incredible things because they already had been doing incredible things. Now it was in 2003 that Paula got married and she met Ann got married to Rick Ralph,

but their relationship had issues from that jump. After just two months of being married, they were already growing apart and Rick had actually already started in a fair with a woman at work. The affair went on for years and by 2005, Paula and Rick were in couples therapy desperately trying to make things work and doing their best to save their

marriage. It took about a year of trying, but they really weren't making much headway, and things weren't in a desirable place. So a heartbroken Paula suggested that they separate, and by the fall of 2006, they were officially divorced. She was really sad about it. And he was too. But for her, it was like, he was cheating on her, first of all. And she was like, I don't wanna be in a marriage with somebody that doesn't wanna be here.

Like, I'm not gonna keep him here if he doesn't wanna be here. I would love to be here. And I would love to be a part of this marriage, but not in this state. Yeah, of course. I understand that. So they split amicably, like I said.

And they still seem to have love for each other. I think it was one of those things where they loved each other, but they weren't in love anymore. Yeah. But the divorce hit Paula Harder than she actually thought it would. Her dream in life was to get married, start her own family, and open her own physiotherapy business.

And now in some ways, she was back to square one. But Paula wasn't one to let life beat her down. And she knew she was still young and had plenty of time to achieve the goal she'd set for herself. And in the months leading up to her death, she actually was starting to date again, kind of starting to get out there, trying her best to move on, getting her groove back. And just before she was killed, she actually got a new tattoo to kind of starting to get out there, trying her best to move on. Getting her groove back. And just before she was killed, she actually got a new tattoo

to kind of represent this change in her life. She got a butterfly that was supposed to signify her new beginning and how strong and resilient she was. She was just like a butterfly. I love that. Now you have a hilarious song stuck in my head. There you go. Now heading back into the investigation,

the shit's gonna get wilder and wilder as we go. As the pathologist examined Paula's body, it was clear that she had not taken her own life as Chris Little intended to make it look. Dr. Toby Rose listed Paula's cause of death as ligature strangulation. Oh, meaning somebody else had placed the rope around her neck. In his report, Dr. Rose noted that the position of the Ligature Mark on Paul's neck suggested that she'd been strangled, saying, quote, in a classical self-hanging, a Ligature Mark is higher up under the chin rather than straight across the voice box. Because the gravity pulls you down.

Exactly, which was where the mark on Paul was found straight across her voice box. Yeah, that literally like physics doesn't make sense. Exactly. She had very clearly been killed before she was hanged from those rafters, which is so terrific, so dark. And there were a multitude of bruises on her body, all over her hands and wrists,

the back of her legs and thighs, suggesting that she'd been handled quite aggressively. Dr. Rose's conclusion was that she'd been murdered, and the scene was staged. There was no question, obviously, as to how Julie Crocker died, but the pathologist still had to carry out an examination of her body, too. It's just the way things go. Yes, of course. It was confirmed that her cause of death was an over 10-inch long,

quote, deep ragged and irregular cut to the neck, which started near her left ear and ended near her right collarbone. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Rose said the cut was so deep that there was, quote, really only skin left uncut at the back of the neck.

She was nearly decapitated. Like, you literally just didn't get the skin in the back. Oh my God. He said that there was, quote, extensive damage to the trachea internal muscles and cartilage, the carotid artery and jugular vein and both lobes of the thyroid gland, the esophagus and even the cervical vertebrae.

Wow. Like, he, what did he use? A jagged knife. Oh my God. Hunting knife. Jagged knife. Oh, my God. Hunting knife. Jagged knife. My God. And in addition to her throat being slashed,

there were also superficial wounds to the left side of her face and defensive sharp force injuries, to her face, to her neck, and to her hands. My God. This was brutal for both women. Yeah. When the forensic technicians processed the crime scene, there was not much evidence found

within the home. The detectives knew by this point that the scene had been staged, but actually the lack of blood evidence outside of the bedroom where Julie had been discovered only proved to their point more. So it's kind of beneficial that there wasn't blood everywhere. Absolutely, and it's like he lives in this house part time. Exactly. It's like they would be hard. And has for years and years and years he knows this place. I just happen to look up pictures of them because I like to see who beautiful. A beautiful and there's a picture of them

on their wedding day. And I'm just looking at it and I'm like, how does that go from that to that? My brain can't compute this kind of stuff. We're like, you marry someone? No. And then this hat, like, never. I think about that so much more now, as much as you're like planning a wedding because

so much love goes into that. That's a big excitement and preparation and you stand before that person and choose them forever, no matter what. And that's the, and then like you have babies together. Yeah. And this, like, and this isn't like crime of passion, which is, he has the moment. He's like planned.

And this is like brutal, almost decapitation. Like this is, how do you do that to someone that you love? Oh, he did. I don't understand that. He did terrible things to this woman, even in life. Oh, good. Terrible, terrible things.

He was not a husband. No, I mean not a husband at all. Yeah, it's ridiculous. But the lack of blood in this case was helpful terrible, terrible things. He was not a husband. No, I mean, not a husband at all. It's ridiculous. But the lack of blood in this case was helpful because had Paula been the one to murder, Julie, that's savagely, like I was saying earlier, and then gone out to the garage. One would assume that there would be at least a little bit of blood on the path out to the garage, and Paula would have been covered. Yeah, absolutely. She was not covered in blood, and there was no blood evidence found in the garage. Yeah, no. The only blood evidence outside of the bedroom

came from handprints that were left by Chris after he'd attempted CPR. Yeah. None of that makes sense. No, it makes no sense. Now, luckily inside of the garage, there was some evidence left behind by the killer. There were fragments of the rope used to hang

Paula still left on the rafters, and on the floor near where her body was, there was a pair of black gloves next to a knife, which was the one used to kill Julie. Remember those black gloves. It was more what they didn't find that helped the investigators. Chris was trying to say Paula had killed his wife in a jealous rage, but she didn't even look like she'd left her house intentionally or with any kind of plan. She actually looked like she'd left her home unexpectedly.

She was found wearing track pants, a hoodie, and boots, and a scarf, but no underwear. And she also had none of her personal belongings with her. No wallet, no keys, no cell phone, not even her car. So how did she get there? Wow. Not even her car, I say to you again. They're trying, seriously trying to pass this off. How did she get there?

With that major, major flaw. She didn't bring her keys, her wallet, her cell phone, nothing. Yeah, nothing. That makes sense. But unfortunately, over at Paula's apartment, there really wasn't much evidence to find. There were no footprints, no tire tracks that they could have tested against Chris Little. And there was really nothing in her home to indicate a struggle, which is interesting. However, there was evidence to suggest that somebody had left in a hurry, it seemed.

There was an unpacked bag of clothes in the master bedroom. Paula's purse and her cell phone were found on the main floor, and in the basement, they found a, quote, still damp wash in the washing machine, as if somebody had just thrown it on with the intention of switching it over. Yeah. And Paula's car was found in the driveway, and interestingly, the word suffer was found scratched onto its hood. What?

Yeah. Oh. How creepy is that? Oh, that's so creepy. It's so creepy. Was he, I don't know if Chris was planning on doing something else with her car and then like forgot or what? Yeah.

But it's like he did that clearly. Wow. Weird. Weird as hell. Yeah, like what was the thought process there? I don't know if it was like, he realized that it didn't make sense and just left her car there or,

and it's like they're gonna find that. Like of course they are, they're gonna go to her home. Sure did yet. So throughout the search of Paulus Home investigators also found her diary, which contradicted Chris's theory that she was an enraged jealous lover. I'm not going to read directly from it. There are quotes out there,

but I don't want to read directly from somebody's diary if that feels weird. Yeah, I feel that. But the diary painted a picture of a woman who was reacting completely, appropriately, to the end of a relationship. In early October, Paula wrote about losing Rick and how hard that was. And the following weeks, though, the entry, or in the following weeks, the entries were similar. But however, by January, which was about four months after they split up, she seemed hopeful. And she wrote that there were, of course, moments of sadness

but that she was starting to feel better and really didn't have the same longing that she had. Yeah. And it's like very normal going through it. This is her diary. If she's jealous, she's gonna write about Julie Crocker. She's gonna write how pissed off she is. She's gonna write fuck this woman, like all this stuff.

Of course she is. Not one entry thought like that at all. And it's like this is just normal, like I'm going through it. And here's my thoughts and here's the grief process. Yeah, exactly. I'm feeling better. Exactly. She even wrote about how she'd started dating again.

Yeah. Paula was a future-oriented person. She wasn't obsessed with the past. No. Even in her most private and personal moments, she wasn't showing any signs of being jealous and hadn't even mentioned Julian Ricks' relationship. Yeah.

So she's just moving on. Now, among some of the more damning evidence found and sent off to the technical, technological crimes unit was Chris Little's work computer. Oh, boy. Just two days before Julian Pala were killed, Chris made a search for Pala's home address on his computer. Hmm, why would you do that? He also looked up photos and saved one of a banner for Paula's home based clinic all in one physiotherapy.

And saved an image of a map quest route to Paula's home. What the fuck? Yeah. These were all found on like the temporary image cache part of the computer for my techies out there. Yeah. Can't delete that shit. Can't do anything as deleted forever. The cloud exists. I don't even know where it is. Just got to ask Casey Anthony. Yeah. Now this next bit of evidence is fucking wild. After interviewing Rick, Ralph, and friends connected to each victim, investigators learned that Chris Little had been testing Julie's clothes for Siemens using a it's called a checkmate

infidelity kit. Are you fucking kidding me? No, I'm for real. Evidence was found from the kit in the basement of Julie and Chris' home, and along with it, this is a trigger warning for sexual assault. They found, quote, a wireless pinhole camera and a digital video that showed Mr. Little apparently sexually assaulting an unconscious Julie Crocker. What?

He was sexually assaulting his wife and had at least one video of it. She's unconscious in the video. And this is like well before the murders. Yep. Like just in their lives. This is what he's doing? Yep.

He, what the fuck? He must have drugged her and done this to her and I'm sorry if you do that once That's not the only time you've done that. No, of course. It's not had they've been able to look for more Which they weren't in a fancy only time you did that no matter what yeah Bye get the fuck out of here like you need to be behind bars That's what they found f**k and they found it in the in the ceiling of the basement like hidden away Oh my god. This guy's a fucking monster. Have you seen him? Yeah, he looks like a monster.

He does look like a monster. His inside's very much reflect on the outside. Oh, wild. Oh my god, that's awful. And Rick told investigators that yes, he was very much involved with Julie. They'd been dating for a few months at that point. And they spent a lot of time at his apartment after she separated from Chris. Like I said, I think she spent nights there when it was Chris's turn to use their house. Yeah, of course. Which she's allowed to use their house. Yeah, of course.

Which she's allowed to do there, so that's where it is. And she doesn't have an apartment yet. No. That where else is she gonna go? Yeah. Rick said that Chris hadn't exactly acted threateningly toward Julie when he was there.

Like he never saw any instance of that. But he did seem to pop up pretty much anytime Rick and Julie were out together. Anywhere they went, Chris also seemed to be there. One night when they were spending the night at Julie's home, Rick actually woke up to Chris shaking his feet in their bedroom. Like him and Julie are asleep in her bedroom

and Chris comes in the house and wakes, Ralph, Rick out up by shaking his feet. Shaking his feet? Yeah. Okay. So, uh, Rick didn't wait around to find out what the hell Chris was doing and why he was there. He simply gathered up his stuff and got out of there.

Yeah, I don't believe it. Which that reaction says a lot. Yeah. That says, I'm, I don't want to deal with this man. I know where this is going. I've probably dealt with this before or something similar and I'm not doing it tonight. Well, and he probably knew there's kids in the house and I'm not gonna create a destruction.

This huge disruption in the middle of the night because this guy's a crazy person. Exactly. He then dropped another bomb on investigators. He and Julie had gone on vacation together in St. Lucia. I think that's how you say that. Yeah. And shortly before their trip,

Julie found a GPS tracker on her car. What the fuck? She believed obviously that Chris little had put it there, which explained how he was popping up everywhere she went with Rick. He was stalking her. And stalking her. Chris's own therapist said that Chris had told her the day Julian Rick left on their trip to go to St. Lucia was quote, the worst day of his life.

And later testified about that in court. Wow. So for him to say that he was, he later says that like, it was fine that she moved on and she made her choice. And you know, while I'm so upset about it, I respect her decisions and LaDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiDiD No, you didn't. No, you definitely didn't. You were checking her clothes for Seaman first of all. What the fuck? I didn't even know that was a thing. It shouldn't be. Infinality kits, that's what you get out of here for me.

Like if you're at that point, it's not the regular. Exactly. You've sexually assaulted her and videoed it and then hit it in your own home. And now you're showing up wherever she is. I'm just astounded, but you're not, you're not over this. No, over this woman. Absolutely not.

Not at all. In the most unhealthy way one could be. Literally, it's ridiculous that he would even claim that. No. So detectives leaning more into their investigation of Chris, then attempted to track his movements on the night of the 911 call leading up to it.

This is where things really get interesting. They were able to find surveillance footage from a gas station off of Highway 407, not far from their home. He's at the gas station at 2am, 80 minutes before he placed the 911 call. And interestingly enough, he's seen wearing black gloves

that looked identical to the ones found at the scene. Oh, and he's deep cleaning his car. scene wearing black gloves that looked identical to the ones found at the scene. Oh. And he's deep cleaning his car. Oh. At 2am. As one does. Yeah, that's usually when you do that. And the footage along with all the other evidence that we've gone over led them to being

pretty confident that Chris Little was their man. Yeah. He wasn't ready to accept that his marriage was over and wasn't willing to let anyone have Julie if he couldn't. And Paula, unfortunately, seemed to be collateral damage. Yeah, I think it was just a more punishment for Rick and just again, a piece to the puzzle that he thought he could get out of this. Exactly.

It was his way out of the double. It was a double whammy. Yep. Now, luckily, like I said, he was arrested the same day this happened. And he was arrested on two counts of first degree murder. And the pretrial phase began on April 27, 2009. The judge overseeing the case did have some qualms with some of the evidence found, unfortunately.

Justice Michelle first claimed that Chris Little's rights had been violated when the York Regional Police searched the basement of the home where they found the video of Chris assaulting Julie. I'm sorry, this stuff goes up my ass. It's a legal stance too. It's legal shit and it's called, you know, concentration and all that stuff in your rights. But it's like, I'm sorry. From the sounds of it, it was basically a technicality.

I don't know if it was that the search warrant didn't include the basement. But they had a warrant to search the house. Yeah. So the basement's part of the house. And this man is drugging and assaulting his wife and videotaping it. I think we can go, you know what?

Yeah. So that was probably good that we found that. Yeah. But she wouldn't let it in the room. And I know that stuff, like no one needs to explain it. It's fine. I understand what the whole thing is. I get it. Yeah, those are probably good that we found that. Yeah, but she wouldn't let it in the room. And I know that stuff, like no one needs to explain it, it's fine, I understand what the whole thing is. I get it, it's not totally, whatever. We get it, it's sucks.

But I'm just saying it sucks. Looking at it from not a law point of view. From an emotional point of view. It sucks because now jurors weren't gonna know anything about this video's existence. And that's bullshit because that is very much who he is as a person and it should be involved in his trial. And a huge part of this case. Yeah. If he's capable of drugging and sexually

assaulting his own wife and videotaping it, then he's very much capable of murdering her. And I think that should be included. Thank you. But I understand that I can't because law I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, she also would not allow interview testimony from several of Paula's friends commenting on how optimistic she was in the weeks leading up to her death. The judges ruling on this matter was with the defense when they argued that Paula made those comments to individuals who, quote, were not someone with whom she had a history of discussing personal matters. So basically, because the prosecution couldn't prove

that Paula had deep conversations about her feelings with these people in the past, there was no way to prove that she was being truthful when she made positive comments. That one is a whole bunch of bullshit in my opinion. That's a wild one. It's just like, that's really around the, yeah, I don't know.

All right, like, okay, sure. Cool. So the jury selection was finished by late September of 2009. Remember, this happened in 2007. This has been going on at this point for two years. Yeah. And the trial started on the 23rd of September, same year. The co-prosecutor for the crown Michael Demser, I believe that's how you say it, I did look it up. I'm hoping to say in it right. He laid out his case in opening arguments, telling the jury that Christopher Little killed his wife out of jealousy, and then killed Paula to frame her for Julie's murder. He explained, Chris could not accept that his marriage was over, wouldn't accept that Julie had moved on, and he presented evidence to the jury showing that Chris had been spying

on Julie for several months and had been tracking her movements with her new boyfriend, Rick Ralph. He was also able to find out, and this was perfect. He was able to find out and tell the jury that Julie had been planning on fully moving out of the home during her last days, and actually in the days leading up to her murder, had been looking at apartments. Oh, so he argued that Julie's independence and this step to move even further from her strange husband was the event that launched Chris into full-blown panic and planning mode. And his plan was to kill her so she couldn't get away from him. I could see that boom.

The prosecution's private theory was that Chris kidnapped Paula to murder her in the home and make it look like she was the one to kill Julie because of the jealousy, a lot of you I do. But Dems are new, he could prove that and he knew he could prove this to the jury based on all the evidence, but he also knew that this was a bit of a confusing story to digest and that the jury might find the plot convoluted. So he was like, you know, I'm not sure if that's the way I want to go. So it's so crazy that you have to think about that in these scenarios. Like the jury might not be able to handle

the actual story. So we have to come up with like a kind of more palatable way to give it to them. Right, because if there's a reasonable doubt going on, then we have to think about that. Right. So instead of speculating on Chris's intentions or even his state of mind,

he just wanted the jury to focus on evidence. And he told them, quote, the police found a crumpled photograph of her with Rick Ralph kissing in front of a pool in St. Lucia. Chris's therapist will testify that Chris told her the day Julie left for St. Lucia was the worst day of his life.

Yeah. Later that day, Rick Ralph was called to testify for the prosecution, and he told the jury about all of the times where Chris showed up while he and Julie were out with one another. He was able to talk about that GPS tracker that Julie had found on her car and that she knew was put there by Chris. So overall, the prosecution was pretty successful in attempting to prove their case. Mm-hmm. But of course, we know the defense still had their chance. Of course. John Rosen

was Chris Little's defense attorney, and he told the jury that Chris had been at his own home watching movies on the night of the murder. Yeah. That's pretty unfortunate for him because his TV cannot work with his alibi. Like his TV is not going to sit there and be like, yeah, he was at home watching me. They can't. There's no one in there. No, they couldn't, man. There's no one there to prove that alibi except for you.

And I'm just going to sit here and believe that. And I bet in his mind, it's like, well, nobody can prove this, but nobody can disprove it. Exactly. He thought he was being sliver. The only reason the lawyer said that Chris had even gone to the house in the first place, this is ridiculous. Absolutely fucking ridiculous, was because he needed some clothes

for a work trip that he was going on the next morning. You know, because 3 a.m. is a pretty normal time to pack your bag at your estranged, wise house, even though you have the entire rest of the day to do so. Wow. You just had to go there at 3am to think about this. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that makes total sense. And he also argued that his client had been on surveillance.

Surveillance, I can never say that, right? I know what it's hard to say. I did. He argued that he had been on the surveillance, claiming the car, because he was really just being thoughtful. Julie was to use the car later that day. And Chris just wanted to make sure it was nice and tidy for her. Just being a good, a strange touch. So he was just like, you know what? Let me go clean this car at 2am. And Chris just wanted to make sure it was nice and tidy for her. Just being a good, estranged husband.

So he was just like, you know what, let me go clean this car at 2am. I just finished my movie. I think that's a great way to do. Yeah. Yeah, because everybody cleans their fucking car at 2am in the morning. Yeah, absolutely.

He argued that Paula was the real killer and that she was quote, a desperate jealous wife who killed her rival and then in despair hanged herself. Wow. He focused on Paula's diary, which was an interesting choice, because he said there was evidence within it that showed that Paula was, quote, tormented by a failed relationship with a philandering husband.

And he told the jurors that they might hear that Paula was moving on, and maybe she was optimistic, but really, she was, quote, in crisis and in turmoil. And that the reason people thought she was being happy just came down to her ability to put on a happy face. Wow. Yeah, totally. He said the happy face was how she was able to go out and drink with her friends and party before she quote, came home to the reality of her empty home on the day

of the murders. And then was basically trying to say like she had gone out partying and drinking. She came home, she was upset, she was alone, and she thought, you know what, let me go kill my husband's girlfriend. My ex-husband's leave my friend. Wow. Like, that is, it's so vile that they put these things on.

It is. Like, it's so vile. And I understand, like, you have a job to do, but sometimes the lengths that people will go to, you're like, you're just like, how do you, and I, again, I get it, but it's like, it's a job, you gotta do your job. But it's like, there's a certain way to go about it

without just like filing a dead pewien's documentation. And I, just me personally, could not get in the headspace to do that. So I could not do that job. No, I feel like I would be haunted. Yeah, I just got, I don't think my brain would be able to like formulate that. No, I don't think so either.

It just wouldn't. Same year. Yeah. So the next week of the trial was where the jurors heard testimony from first responders and from family and friends of both victims. Responding officers Michael Moulville and Stephanie Hunter testified about the crime scene

while the jury was also presented with photos of both women which showed how they were discovered. Oh god. I can't imagine how we see that. Co-prossacutor Douglas Casco walked the jury through the details of each scene, telling them how there was only a small amount of blood on the inner and outer door knobs of the bedroom door, which led him to believe that whoever had killed Julie did this because they wanted to minimize any noise so as not to wake up the children. Oh, he emphasized that the door was closed to prevent the kids from seeing their mother, which would have been the act of a person who cared about the kids and not the act of an enraged murderer. No. He also asked them to think about the

lack of blood found on Paul's body, not a single drop anywhere. But the defense wanted them to believe that she had cut a woman's throat nearly to the point of decapitation. And got out of that with not a literal single drop of blood on her. I can't even stress that point enough because it's fucking ridiculous.

And it's like reasonable doubt to the extreme. To the like, to another galaxy. Crazy. ["Full of Love"] Casco then reminded them and this is... This is one of my favorite parts of this case because it's like, you fucked yourself. You thought that you were so like above this, you were the mastermind of this all in this little technicality right here. If I was sitting on the jury and heard this,

I would have been like, boom, he reminded the jury to think about a 40 second period between little entering the home from the garage and making it up to the bedroom. In that time, he is on the phone with 911, closes the front door, takes off his shoes, hangs his jacket, then goes upstairs to the bedroom where he found Julie. For one thing, who does that after discovering

a hang stranger in their garage? And secondly, in those 40 seconds, he told the dispatcher that there was blood all over the place. But he would have said that before he ever entered the bedroom, they timed it. There was no possible way that when he said there was blood all over the place, he'd actually been to the bedroom. So how would he know that if he wasn't the one that killed, killed his one? What an actual idiot.

Casco asked the jury and then answered the question for them because he killed her. Yeah, he had seen the blood already. If I was sitting on that, that would get that point in time. I'd be like, boom, case closed. Yeah. How do you argue with that? Case fucking clow. How do you argue with that? I have no idea. Because you didn't see any blood in the grouch. No, so you're not talking about that. Nope, nope. Absolutely fucking ridiculous.

So ultimately, Chris's trial went on for two months. By the end of those two months, the jurors, spectators, the press, heard from a lot of witnesses. They heard from responding officers, the medical examiner, Rick Ralph, Paulus family, Julie's family, plenty of people.

And the testimony proved that Julie was at an unsatisfying crumbling marriage and took the initiative to change that reality. Yeah. Paulo was also ready to change her reality, though she was disappointed about the end of her marriage. She was ready for the future. She was excited to move on.

She was excited to complete the goal she'd set for herself. Yeah. And Chris Little was the complete opposite of these two women. He was jilted and he couldn't let go of what was already gone. Nope. So he wanted revenge and in his mind wanted to win. Yeah. But he fucking lost. He lost big time.

As the trial near the end, Chris Little decided to actually take the stand and testifying his own defense. That's usually not a good idea. It was not. He, thankfully, he told the jury that he was innocent and that he and Julie, quote, had all in all a good relationship. We were a good team together. Oh, okay. And then he made it seem like he was the victim in the relationship and focused on Julie's

infidelity, saying, quote, I don't blame Julie. She was just not sure what she wanted. And that he, quote, wanted the opportunity to see if we could get past that. But that it was Julie who took the chance away from him when she chose Rick over him. It was as simple as that. He said when she, when she made her decision, he realized it was over. He accepted that Rick was who she truly wanted to be with. All he wanted going forward was to be amicable co-parents and maybe one day even friends. Wow. Let me just like the world's smallest violin while he testifies.

He might have done his best to make himself look like the victim in the situation, but all of the evidence and all of the other testimonies collectively were on the complete contrary to the sweet wounded angel fucking out of his. No reasonable person would stock their estranged wife, would place a tracker on her car, would test her clothing for semen, or sexually assault her while she was unconscious. Though the jury didn't know about the latter. That's so fucking tough. And his closing arguments it is, Chris's lawyer reminded the jury that the Crown's case

was built on completely circumstantial evidence and speculation. He told them there's no smoking gun and asked, quote, where's the boiling, boiling, I don't know, boiling, boiling is such a stupid thing to say. It is called the end of angst, anger, depression and humiliation. And finally, told the jury that if there was even a hint of reasonable doubt to their minds that they had an obligation to acquit his client. They don't have it. I don't. I'm predicting here, but they don't have it. I don't have it. I don't hear it. No one has it. In the prosecution's closing arguments, they acknowledged that, of course, there were lingering

questions and someone knowns when it came to the sequence of events that night of the murders. No one had seen anybody coming or going from Paulus home that night. They had simply speculated, yes, that it was Chris who could napt her. But reminded the jury, quote, he needed someone to blame for the murder of his wife, someone who he mistakenly believed had the same motive for killing his wife. Another evidence was circumstantial. It was abundant and showed a man who was obsessed and unwilling to let go.

So in those closing arguments, Casco actually referenced a letter that Chris had sent Julie a couple weeks before she was killed. The letter was in response to people encouraging him to move on and read, quote, to all this, I say no. What I am and where I am is totally and completely in love with you.

Wow. But I thought you just said that you were willing to let her go. I was just gonna say, wait a second. She made her choice. You said she chose Rick and you understood and respect that and just hoped that someday you could be friends.

You just hoped. But you just sat here and said, no, I won't move on. I am where I am is completely and totally in love with you. Yeah, obviously. You're in love with her? No, the fuck you're not. I'm where I am is completely and totally in love with you. Yeah, obviously. You're in love with her? No, the fuck you're not. I don't know what you think love is, but it's not this.

That's a no. It's a no for me, no. It's a big old no. It took the jury interestingly, because I always love to see how long the jury takes to do it. I know, because it's always very telling of how strong that case is. It is. And I understand that this wasn't necessarily a very strong case because

and so did the prosecution. They said there are still lingering questions. Yeah. So it took the jury actually three days to reach a decision. Oh wow. It was November 25th, 2009, when they finally did. And they found Christopher Little, might as well be little, guilty on both counts of first degree murder. Good. Mother fucker was going to prison. Bye The verdict was an end to two years of hell uncertainty and an opening of wounds for both of the victims families. Yeah

Paulus twin sister Carolina told the reporters quote it won't bring Paula back and we're going to miss her every single day But Chris paid for what he did. Hell yeah, I did. And she and her family were satisfied with the jury's decision. Now, Julie and Paula's loved ones were able to read victim impact statements on November 30th, 2009. And this is heartbreaking. Paula's mother Monica told the court how almost 34 years ago she and her husband made the decision to leave Argentina

and the violence they'd experienced there so that they could give their children a better life. And she said, Paula's murder would make her always question that decision. Oh, that breaks my heart. She told the court, quote, please don't misunderstand me. I still have the same original feeling when I compare it to other countries. But one in irony and disappointment when our beloved Paula would end up paying for her life,

paying with her life for a decision I made more than three decades ago. Oh my god, and no No, that's not what that was But it's terrible that she has to live every day of the rest of her life because of this mother fucker Yeah, this little tiny man, and I just want to be like no, no, no like it's because this fucking Worm of a human wiggled his way into her orbit somehow. It had nothing, it was like just happenstance. Yeah, truly, truly just happenstance. It's so true.

And this is even more heartbreaking. Policester, her twin sister, Carolina, told the court how she had been pregnant and had actually gone into labor on the morning of her sister's murder. Saying, quote, the ugly truth of it will be that my son's birthday will be a constant reminder of the day my beloved twin was murdered.

Oh my God. Like that is heart wrench. That is way too much for one family. Way too much for one family. Way too much for one family. You know what though, there's this like, I don't know if it's an old Irish thing. It is, it's like when you're in a russian leaves, another person comes in.

And that happened to you. It's like you open the door and yeah, it happened to us on our side when the girls were born. It's so true. And it's obviously, this is a very different circumstance when it happened to us. It was not this brutal murder. No, of course.

And that is very hard to wrap your brain around. It's just like, hopefully you can provide a small comfort. Maybe you can give a little comfort with that. Just like, it's just there's no way to. There really isn't. No, because it's awful. And that's the thing, she's like every year, I celebrate my child's birthday is also a reminder

that I lost my sister. Oh, that just breaks my heart. And I can't imagine giving birth and having that be like one of the most amazing things to happen in your life and all the hormones coursing throughout your body and then you get the news that this happened to your twin sister. Oh my God. I have goosebumps right now just thinking about it. My heart goes so far out to my brain.

Just can't even. No, to both of these families. Now Chris was offered the opportunity to address the court and remain silent. What you say. Like you should remain silent. Shut the fuck up. But honestly, he should have fun.

I don't like it doesn't matter, but you should have got up and apologized to these families. Oh, it's a total double edged sword with it. Those things, because it's like, I don't wanna hear your fucking face hole. Like, you can shut the fuck up. But the fact that you say in time. Not to say anything.

You should want to say something. Exactly. But I don't wanna fucking hear exactly. It's one of those things where it's like, I wanna be invited, but please, no, I'm not coming. Exactly. If you don't invite me, I'm gonna be pissed, but I'm definitely not coming.

That's exactly what that is. Exactly. Now after all the statements were read, Justice Michelle Fierce addressed Little and commented on his callousness for robbing his and Julie's two children of a mother, saying quote, she read him to absolute filth, I love this woman.

Because you made them lose both their parents. Yeah. She said, robbing your children of their mother's love, you slashed the throat of the woman you professed to love so severely that her head almost came off. As for Ms. Menendez, you saw to it that the pain you inflicted increased a thousand fold when you publicly labeled her a homicidal,

suicidal maniac day after day in this court. Paula Menendez was truly an innocent player in a production cast and staged by you and you alone. Holy shit. And that's honestly the part that gets me to is like this whole thing is tragic on every level. But Paula, having, he's sitting there labeling her not just a vicious murderer, but a jealous, outrageous, unhinged, just, like, doesn't care about these people's children. Like, about would steal a mother from these children would be this unhinged over a man. Right.

A man who she decided to leave because it wasn't working. Exactly. And she left this man amicably. And this man was amicable too. Well, that situation was like, what you were claiming your situation was and what Julie wanted your situation to be. Exactly. And you're sitting here, like,

just running her over the coals with her reputation. And it seems like Paula, like you said, the two of them, like, yeah, it didn't end well. Like, that's not a great way to end a marriage. No. Just somebody cheating and the other person not wanting to leave, but having to. But it sounds like they had come to a place where it was like, okay, this happened. And like, we both have love for each other. But we need to move on.

Exactly. And it's like, that's the best case scenario in that situation. Absolutely. That's what, but I think most of us could hope for. And they were being adults. They were being mature. they were being mature, they were moving on, they seemed like they weren't having this crazy feud thing going on.

And honestly, what a testament to Paula. Exactly, and she's even writing in her diary that she's going through it, but she's gonna come out the other side and that she was feeling good. She never sat there into spared Julie, she never sat there into spared Rick, and sounds like. No. And it's like, so she's this like great person

who's mature and healthy and ready to move forward. Just focus on the future. As so far the opposite that you can't, it's just incredible. You're painting her to be the monster that you are, the litter. You take responsibility. That you strangled her with a ligature and then hung her in

and hung her out there in this horrifying degrading way. And then further just disparage her character after you brutally murdered her and hung her out to be a murderer. And not to mention, what if your two kids did wake up? What if they saw that and you didn't have your kids? Get through that, that image, and that entire image, when we burned in their brains for the rest of their lives, you can do that.

If you can do that, you're not a father. You're not. You can do that to their mother and you can do that while they're home. Absolutely. And to another innocent woman. And do that while they're home. Absolutely. And to another innocent woman. And to exactly. And the pain it on her, like, what the fuck?

He's a depraved individual. When I said a bomb anable, I meant a bomb anable. It truly just, it smells it. He really does remind me of Chris Watts. He reminds the ways that there's clearly no love for those children and no love for that woman, no real pure love for that woman. And to be able to disparage somebody after you have brutally murdered them,

just like he was able to, it's like, what the fuck is wrong with these men? Seriously, seriously. You're getting together. It's funny that you say, not funny, it's just ironic that you say that because the whole time I was putting this case together, I kept thinking of Chris Watts. And we've been, a lot of people have wanted us to cover Chris Watts.

I'm not covering Chris Watts. No, because he likes the coverage. He likes the coverage and I can't even look at that case. That case. What happened in that case? I read a little bit of it and I will, I'm like forever changed out of that case. I can't even think of those children and what that poor woman had to go through. We try not to cover things where children are the victims.

A lot of them most of the time. And that is just too brutal. That's just something. Yeah. It's probably not going to happen. No. So, after she sentenced Chris to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 25 years, which was the maximum sentence allowed under Canadian law.

I was going to say that's stupid. He shouldn't have parole. I know he shouldn't, but Canada. She told him that he was, quote, cowardly, vicious, and deserving of the most severe punishment that their law permits. Good. So he began serving his sentence at a maximum security prison in Ontario, but he was transferred to a medium security prison in the summer of 2012

when the original prison that he was in was closing down. Both Julie and Paulus families protested and wrote to the Supreme Court. And they said the move felt like it was a slap in the face to them. Yeah. But they were told that the decision was based on, quote, the degree of control needed to protect the public staff, offender,

and the security of the institution and availability of the appropriate programs and services. It's a technical. Yeah, I was just going to say that's a very fancy way of saying like it's a technicality. Exactly. And they said in no way was it meant to be a reflection of the crimes that he'd committed. Yeah, but it's like where you are should be a reflection of the crimes you committed.

Exactly. Ridiculous. He did appeal his conviction in 2014 and argued for a trial claiming, say it with me, that his rights had been infringed upon. It's like, you can't claim that when the judge actually left evidence out because they felt like, yeah.

She did her due diligence. The request was denied and the original sentence was upheld. By rot in prison. Yes. You truly fuck. Because no matter what, I'm assuming that parole will be denied each time. I would think. I mean, come on.

I would think. He brutally murdered two women, including the mother of his children, that he literally almost decapitated on the floor of their bedroom. Yeah, but then you have to think about like, um, fucking what's her face there? Carlo and Ruby and Ken. Yeah, like she's out. That's true. But that's a little different.

It is a little different, because she wasn't, because he was the most active participant. Right. I guess like she's, trust me, we've talked about our feelings about her. Yeah, exactly. But she's one of those things where you're just, it's a different scenario, so I'm hoping this would be

a little different. Yeah, you just never know. But I hope with every fiber of my being that this man dies in prison. Keep them in there. Friend, but lives a long life in prison. Yep. And with all that being said, we thank you for listening.

We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But never this fucking weird, you will never get away with murder. Don't be this Chris. I hate you. Look at that Chris. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus

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