Morbid - Episode 457: H.H. Holmes Part 1

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

When Boston police arrested Dr. Henry Howard Holmes in a West End boarding house on November 17, 1894, they assumed they had apprehended an interstate criminal guilty of defrauding the Fidelity Insurance company of $10,000 and of being a horse thief in Texas. Holmes had been tracked to New England by the Pinkerton Detective Agency, who had suspected him of other crimes in various cities across the country; yet even the most seasoned and creative detective couldn’t have imagined the horrific scope and magnitude of crimes he’d committed.Thanks Dave for this magnificent synopsis!Thanks to Care/of for being a sponsor of this episode. For 50% off your first Care/of order, go to TakeCareOf.com and enter code MORBID50.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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than the national average savings rate. Apply for your Apple card now in the wallet app on iPhone and start growing your daily cash with savings today. Apple card subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple card owners, subject to eligibility requirements. Savings is available to Apple Card owners, subject to eligibility requirements. Savings accounts provided by Goldman Sachs Bank USA. Remember FDIC, National Average Savings Rate is from FDIC website, Terms Apply. Hey, Weirdo's I'm Ash. And I'm Alaina. And this is officially a big series of morbid. It's a multi-parter! And it's like a celebration of our fucking five podcasting years, guy!

Five years! Five years. I'm holding my hand up to signify five. Should be high five, Freddie. Hi! five five. Should be high five. Friday. Hi. That was a really good one. I bet we knocked the eyelash out of Ash and then I was quite literally. Oh man. Okay, death, destruction.

You know when they're like not yours, so then they start. It's five years we're blinding Ash right now. I've been going through it on this podcast lately. Oh, guys, every episode last week I was like, yeah, my stomach hurts. I got the stomach bug. That's what I was. She was gearing up to the last episode that we did. I got the stomach bug that night.

Yeah, so yeah, so for, because everybody was like, huh, Ash hasn't been doing great. That's so up. Every episode I was like, I don't know't been doing great. I was like, I forgot the set. I was like, I don't know my stomach because just really off, really off. It was off for like a week. And then I was like, you know what I should do? I should eat chicken and waffles.

Yeah. And then the stomach bug said, oh, you thought stupid bitch. That's what it said. Yeah. I heard it all the way from here. Yeah. But yeah, somehow she got the stomach bug and she kept it to herself. So I appreciate that. That's because you weren't way from here. Yeah. But yeah, somehow she got the stomach bug and she kept it to herself, so I appreciate that.

That's because you weren't anywhere near me. Yeah, thank goodness. Love you so much. I love you so much. I wanted to be a loo. A loo. Leave me alone with my neurovirus. Hopefully, you know, we're getting out of that season, I hope.

So let's all just stop giving each other the stomach bug and she'll be careful. GI bugs are really, they're really having a moment right now. Yeah, ask beachdrem on to her job. So let's all just stop giving each other the stomach bug and show up. Be careful. GI bugs are really, they're really having a moment right now. Yeah, ask beachdrem on TikTok. Beachdrem on TikTok. She'll tell you all about it. Oh, and you know what I learned from beachdrem?

I think it was beachdrem that said it. And you've said it before too. But I think you said it last time you were like, you can't use hand sanitizer to get rid of the neurovirus. And you know why? Because it's wrapped in a lipid, which is a fat. Look at that. Which is a fat lipids science science with morbid and beach gym. You have to wash your hands for at least 20 seconds. Yeah, so you soak in water that'll get

rid of the GI buggies, but other than that, they're sticking around because. Woof, woof, yeah. But no, you said hopefully they're leaving. I hope so. Let's all knock on one together. April showers bring no stomach bugs. That's how that goes. So it's called me setting. We're setting.

It's called manifestation, okay? A duh. So yeah, like we said, this is five years, guys. Woo! And I know you looked at the title of this episode, so this isn't going to be a big, exciting surprise, right, the second, but like, I hope you're excited because you hit play.

You have been asking all of you. A long time for five years. All of it. For H.H. Holmes. Yeah. I have been wanting to do H.H. Holmes for five years. It's true. But I knew it was a big, long one,

similar to Jack the Ripper. I knew that it needed like real attention paid to it, like, because it's just got so much extra Jewish to it that I was like, this is like, you know, it's got history, it's got all this mayhem to it. You got to siphon through all the lies and find the actual facts in the case because this motherfucker lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. He lied right to everyone's face holes all the time. I like how you're doing a lot with your hands right now and the way that you were just like digging through the lies. I'm digging. They made me think of the little girl and knocked up and she's like, and then you dig and you dig.

And then the babies inside. That's exactly it. You dig and you dig and you dig and you find a little of the truth. That's what they said. It's a little truth, baby. But yeah, he needed was a liar. And I think we're gonna get right into it.

I don't know how many parts this is gonna be. Many. So just strap in. I think it's at least gonna be three. Buckle up, put it before. I'll let you know probably in the next episode, for sure, how many parts it will be, but you know strap in. This is our big five-year series

that we wanted to give to H.H. Holmes because he's a piece of shit. And you know, the story is wild. Yeah. So let's start at the beginning. That's a good place to go. It always is. In the late 1800s, Herman Webster Budget.

Herman Webster Budget. Take that in. H.H. Holmes' real name is Herman Webster Budget. So he could have been H.M. Budget. Yeah. H.W. Budget. Yeah, Webster Budget. So he could have been HM Budget. Yeah. Wow. HW Budget. Yeah, Webster.

Yeah. I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was

like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, well, I was like, good because it's like, all right. So H.H. Holmes, made up. Objectively, is it cool name? Like H.H. Holmes flows, it's a very like smooth name. You would probably trust in H.H. Holmes

if you didn't know this H.H. Holmes. Yeah, like all this aside, like every all of it, it would be a stage name. It would, like H.H. Holmes sounds cool. Yeah. Herman, Webster, Mug It would. Like HH homes sounds cool. Yeah. Herman, Webster, Muget. It does sound as scary. No. Or maybe sound scarier. Actually, I should say it sounds scarier. It just sounds kind of lame. But you know, homes, we're gonna we're gonna refer to him as homes because that's what he went by for most of his name. That's what

people knew him by. That's what his crimes are really under. We'll call him Herman for part of this, like in the beginning, but you'll know who we're talking about. But, aka HH Holmes, he claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. Some people, most people, all people believe that it could be well over 200 people that he has killed. You believe? I believe he's way up there.

Yeah, I think he's more than 28. Okay. While the full extent of his crimes and the number of lives that he did take is probably something that we may never know to the nth degree. You know, like when I don't think we're gonna be able to find every single person, I would love to believe we could.

It was really his ability to kill without conscience or hesitation, really for financial gain. We'll see the times. Sometimes he did it because he just liked to do it, but most of the time it was for financial gain. Do you think it was like financial gain and he liked it? Oh, it was for sure. It was for sure, mix. And I think it was also the systematic way

that he got rid of his victims in his murder castle, which don't worry, we will get to. It feels like a horror novel. It doesn't feel like real life. Yeah. When you read the actual facts of this, you're like, that's not real. But it is.

It's wild. And in truth, he wasn't really like a genius. He wasn't as calculating as he's really made out to be. He was just a man who learned pretty early on in life that being a confident liar can get you a long way in the world, unfortunately. Sad but true. Especially if you can create enough chaos and confusion

to make it absolutely impossible to actually tell the difference between fact and fiction. You ever seen the great Gatsby? There you go. If you can spin a tail so wild that people can't tell if it's real fake, what is, what isn't. There's nuggets of truth here, there and everywhere.

He got a long way with it. Yeah. And when we go through this, you're gonna see, damn, he went a long way with it. I'm And when we go through this, you're going to see, damn, he went a long way with it. I'm actually really excited to hear you're telling of this because I don't know that much about H.H. Holmes, to be honest. He's, it's weird that like, I think a lot of people,

a lot of people know the name H.H. Holmes. They know the murder castle. You know, they know like the things about it that we've all been told, but when you dig into it and you realize like he was not just a monster, he was such a piece of shit. Like he was like, he was a piece of shit in every aspect of his life. Good. It was like he was just such a shipbag. It's wild. And he was such a fucking liar. Such a liar. He had no qualms about hurting everybody along the way

in various ways, like emotionally, financially, physically, anything. You think like he didn't care. Full blown sociopath. I think he is full blown. Yeah. Full blown and all he gave a shit about was money. Yeah.

That's all he cared about and it didn't do him well in the end. I feel like if your main goal is just money, it's never going to work out. No. It's not going to create money obsessed people throughout history. They usually are like, yeah, it doesn't work out in the very end. In the very end, it might work out along the way. But in the end, it doesn't. It can't be your only goal. No. it ultimately, it ends up eating you alive. Yep, it really does. Now, let's start at the very beginning of H.H. Homes. Yes.

H.H. Homes, like I said, was born Herman Webster budget in Gilminton, New Hampshire. Ah, bitch. On May 16th, 1861, his parents were Levi budget and Theodate price. I think that makes him a tourist. Oh, there you go. Wow, I didn't see that for him.

I'm gonna double check that. But according to H.H. Holmes himself, his early years in New Hampshire were, quote, no different from those of any other country-bread boy. And I was well-trained by loving and religious parents. I don't know about that. His parents were Methodists.

They were very strict disciplinarians. His father Levi was a house painter and would later go on to serve as the town's postmaster. And his mother stayed at home. She was a housemaker. Okay. Now they were not known to be like strange, mean, to have any like dark ways about them by neighbors or anything like that. According to Adam Seltzer's book, H.H. Holmes, this true story of the white city devil, neighbors remembered the muggits as quote, very upright god-fearing citizens, living in a quiet secluded section of the country with no trace or taint of immorality or vice in the family history for at least three generations.

I love that they were like, now we can't tell you about that fourth generation. They could be heathens of the highest order. But for three generations, these people did the damn thing and they seemed okay. Okay. Like we can vouch for three generations we're not going back to that fourth.

I don't know. But it's weird because you get little, again, with that there's a lot of parts of this story where you hear homes themselves tell 40 different versions of the story or you hear other places, just give you different things. You will find if you read about them that they were, there was nothing of note

in his childhood with his parents that seemed to set off anything. But him saying like, you know, they were good people. I didn't really have anything wrong with them. That is probably true. Remember it was the 1800s. So I'm pretty sure they were strict disciplinarians meant they beat the shit out of their kids

when they got in trouble. And that was just normal back then. So I think it was one of those things that it was like, oh yeah. Like, whatever. And normal like all throughout his life. So whatever. But Herman himself, I'm going to call him Herman for now, wrote an autobiography from prison later called Holmes's Own Story. And he wrote it in 1895. And he starts the book like this. This will tell you everything you need to know about what kind of theater kid this guy is. Uh-oh.

Quote. Come with me, if you will, to a tiny quiet New England village, nestling among the picturesque, eschley rugged hills of New Hampshire. This little hamlet has for a century been known as Gilminton. Here in the year 1861, I, Herman W. Muget, the author of these pages, was born narcissists. Like, wow, okay, girl, calm down. Like, I, Tosa, the author of these pages was born. It's fantastic. It's like, and the world was a worse place for it. So thank you for bringing us back to that moment where we all went fuck. I also know that he starts the book with Cud with me if you will. Everybody else is like,

no, no, no, no, no, I know it reminds me of like the in like Willy Wonka when he's like, come with me. No, no. Like that and it feels the same. Like when Willy Wonka did it, I was like, no, thank you. And that one he does and I'm like, no, thank you. And that one, he does it. I'm like, no, thank you. I don't, anytime someone says, come with me. Say, no, thank you. Thank you. I'm going to go this way. So like we said, the budgets were a well-liked family. Holmes's childhood seems fairly unremarkable

for the time period, especially. His mother remembered him as, quote, a good little child, very pretty in loving. As most moms remember their children being, like, very pretty in loving. As most moms remember their children being, like, very pretty in loving. But not everyone remembered him as being so pretty or so loving as he began to get older. According to Ira Peneck, a cobbler in Gilminton,

he said, quote, herman was a hard worker, but still there were some things about him I didn't like. He was too fond of money. And Peneck told reporters that there were a lot of times when he was around the shop that he would see money go missing when he had been around. Or when Herman would claim that he'd sent payment for a service,

he would just pocket the money himself. That's fake as fuck. And in fact, of the many stories that people got after he was arrested finally, which we will get to in the ultimate episode of the many stories that people got after he was arrested finally, which we will get to in the ultimate episode of the end, a lot of people said that he was generally polite and pretty like fine. Like, no one was like, wow, he was so popular or cool or oh, he was so weird and odd and like we hated him.

It was just like, he was fine, I guess, like whatever. But they always mentioned him possessing a very unhealthy preoccupation or obsession with money. That was always the thing, people were like, yeah, he was fine, he was polite, I guess. Like, he wasn't super offensive, but like, my God, that guy was obsessed with money. And it's like when everyone in your life, that is the Like like common thread that everybody can touch up on that's bad Yeah, you you want to be known for like a little bit more than a little bit more than Scrooge McDucking your way through life I think I think I really could wait He was that an ad for yeah, no, that would be L.Y. That was a verb. I like it. I like it

I like it. I like that you Scrooge McDuck does a great. Yeah But by most accounts I like it. I like it. I like it. I like the East Crouch McDuck, doesn't it? Yeah, you know? But by most accounts, he did struggle a little to develop healthy interpersonal skills as a child, which to me would be a red flag now considering his adult activities, but at the time, you know, also the 1800s. So like was there even people to make friends with? Was anyone having healthy interpersonal skills at that point? I don't think so. But according to one of his neighbors, as a boy, he was, quote, a boy easily influenced

and did not appear to be well grounded and firm principles, not withstanding his excellent home training and instruction. So he just couldn't stand in his own convictions. And honestly, he didn't seem to hold any real moral strongholds of his own. And that's not good. That's a red flag to me. But other neighbors remembered him spending a lot of time by himself, kind of being a little bit of a loner sometimes.

Another neighbor named Betsy. Betsy, holdly. Fucking love the name Betsy. I thought you were going to be like, I know Betsy. Oh my god, that's my good girl Betsy. Betsy, holdly. She said, I don't know if you heard that, Puppar, but she said, quote, he always seemed to be by himself.

I know that instead of playing with the other boys, he would wander off alone or on long walks. He was never much of a favorite with the other boys. He seemed to be very secretive. He was too arrogant and domineering to be popular with the children. Again, that alone to me isn't a huge issue, but added into everything else later, and it's definitely another red flag

that you're like, ugh. And what was he doing off by himself? That's the thing. And being secretive, it's like, ugh, he killed an animal. And also of note, many who knew him as a boy later said that he would never make eye contact when addressing children or adults would not look you in the eye.

He wouldn't look anyone in the eye. To me, I was like, oh, that's a little sketchy, but then if you read a little further into this, you see that a couple of medical professionals did diagnose him at one point with stovid myths, which is technically like I'm cross-eyed. Oh, okay. Now, this can make it nearly impossible

to maintain eye contact physically. And people, you know, it can actually like hold people back because people think, look at it as being like, oh, you're sketchy or untrustworthy. I just can't look at it. But it's really like, he honestly just couldn't look people in the eye. So like, that is super fair to like label as like,

oh, that's a little, like here's the thing. I'm sure he was label as like, oh, that's a little, here's the thing. I'm sure he was objectively untrustworthy and objectively a criminal. So even if he could look you in the eye, I'm sure he wouldn't. But physically he couldn't. So we won't use that as a vote. We've got a red flag.

Well, rest on that. Now, although he did like to invent things when he was younger and he showed interest in a few areas, he never showed a real direction and he seemed to kind of float around without a real purpose for a while. Same. It was really a bit later that he finally settled

on medicine as his thing. Now, the stories recounted to reporters after he was arrested are definitely influenced by what he did and what he was charged with and what he was down to. So it is like a little biased when you look at it later and people are seeing hindsight in full 2020 now. Remember now these things are never super red flags until they add up and you sprinkle

in some murder and then you're like, Oh, yeah, that all makes sense. Exactly. Nevertheless, people definitely all kind of came to a consensus that he was odd, he was very apathetic, he was fucking obsessed with money. And honestly, when you put that on with today's understanding of the psychology of con artists or killers, it's pretty on par. Lines off, yeah.

Those line up. So it's not like everybody's just making shit up. This is who he was. Now, one interesting story that's often told was that when he was a young boy, he always had like a fear of the local doctor's office, which is pretty common in kids. And especially, I'm sure in the 1800s, the local doctor's office was a scary fucking nightmare,

Dan. So they just have all their, their like you just tools laying out You like I I'm not gonna fault little little herman for that one He's like I bumped my knee. They're like we're gonna cut it off. Yeah, it's like and this guy His name was doctor Neham White. I believe his last name was or his full name was and he was a known name was or his full name was. And he was a known like he was very into dissection. He was an anatomist. He was very good at his job. He was very respected, but he took dissection to another level sometimes. Okay. So he had things in his office that would have been a little morbid. T.M. Oh,

and also like a little scary. Yeah. So that makes sense, but one day, a couple of older boys dragged Herman forcibly into one of the rooms in the office and showed him a skeleton. Where are all the employees? I mean, 1800s, they're like, I don't get the fuck away. Oh, that they're just like kids. Yeah, we're gonna run in here real quick.

Don't tell him to run in. We're going to run in. Let's talk about glasses because I love them. Orby Parker offers everything you need for happier eyes. My eyes are the happiest eyes in the game. Eye glasses, sunglasses, contact lenses, IGxams, and you can shop with them online or in stores. Glasses start at $95, which includes prescription lenses. Try Warby Parker's Free Home Try-On program. Order five pairs of glasses to try at home for free. There's no obligation to buy ships free and includes a prepaid shipping label. Try five pairs of glasses at home for free at WarbyParker.com slash morbid. You guys, I did the at home trion program and it is

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a while and I fell off of it because you know we all enter ruts sometimes. But then recently I had that kind of like, ah, moment where I was like, hey, girly, maybe you should have take care of yourself. And my brain was like, yeah, let's do that. It agreed with me. So I had that ah, moment. And I was like, I need to take better care of my health. I need like a wellness routine. You know, I'm going to be getting married here. We're starting to talk about our future with children. I want to be my best self. And then Karev popped it in my head. And I was like, oh my god, I know Cara of, Cara of is there to help me get started by taking the guesswork out of what supplements

are best suited for me. So I went over to the website, I logged in, well you don't log in, you take a quiz. I took a quiz and it's all about, it's super short, but it's like super in depth and it's all about your lifestyle, your health goals, and you'll get personalized doctor-backed recommendations and the quiz can be retaken at any time like obviously I've taken it in the past but you know a lot has changed since then so I wanted to switch up my packs because my lifestyle has changed a bit It is super duper easy It takes barely any time at all and then you're gonna get the care of vitamin pack shipped right to your door They're literally so easy.

They're like, you'll never miss taking your vitamins because you could take them on the go. Because they have just like little daily packs and they say your name on them, which is my favorite thing ever. You guys are gonna love carav. I personally love it so much. I can't wait to get my new vitamin shipped to my door. So for 50% off your first carav order, go to takecareof.com and enter code morbid50. Again, that's 50% off your first carav order. Go to takecareof.com and enter code morbid50. This skeleton by all accounts was set up so that it had its arms outstretched,

which Herman said made it look like it was about to grab him. Yeah. And it was like this big, all like open mouth skeleton, like scary. Like, scary. And so it scared the shit out of him, like, totally traumatized him, but at the same time, it fascinated him. Okay. And he said that was the beginning of his fascination with medicine and anatomy.

Okay. I'm sure it scared the shit out of him. I don't know if that was the beginning of his real like fascination with medicine. I think he's trying to use that as like, here's this origin tale of my of my great career in medicine, which was bullshit anyway. So it's like, I don't know about that. Well, because a lot of times you're inspired by like multiple things. Yeah, exactly. I was like, no, I think that you knew that doctors made more money. And so you wanted to do that. Yes. Because you do love a pretty coin. I think it's more that, my friend. But during his teen years, he graduated high school at 16. And he started working a number of odd jobs. And finally, he ended up teaching at a local school for a little while. It was during this time where he was teaching that he fell in love with Clara

Lovering. Clara was a girl from a prominent family in nearby Loudon, New Hampshire. And now interestingly, people who knew herman early in life said that he had been obsessed with getting married very early in life. Even when he was like 14 years old, he was trying to get that dowry. He was trying to get that dowry. There you go. And in fact, after his grandfather passed away,

his grandfather left him a small parcel of land, which was very common. And he took this as like, well, I'm a landowner now. So I need to get myself a wife. That's slowed out. So he had 14, he proposed to this girl. Well, I was actually boarding with that cobbler,

Ira Peneck, who was like, he was a weird kiss. Yeah. And probably still money for me. And also proposed to this lady that was living with me when he was 14. I guess this girl that he proposed to was like visiting the country from New York or something, like was staying in boarding at Iroppennix

for the, like, some period of time. Sure. And so Iroppennix was like, yeah, you can't marry this girl. She's going back to New York and, like, I'm supposed to be taking care of her and, like, you can't just, like, I can't, like, marry her off to you, you psycho.

Like, what the hell? What's happening? So, she had apparently either accepted it and it was, like, a no, you't do that, or she didn't accept it. And the proposal returned to New York shortly after. But he was undaunted though to worry about it. He wasn't going to, that wasn't the end of his romanticism. But he tried again when he met Clara,

love ring. So Clara was very well liked, very respected. People thought she was sweet and kind, and really didn't have a bad thing to say about her. A neighbor once said about her, quote, she was a very pretty little woman when she was first married and was very devoted to her husband. She was of a modest and retiring disposition. That sounds great for 1800s. That's Victorian like you go girl, I think.

She was an it girl. She went on a hot girl. Say it goes. They were like, I always see her in the morning on her hot girl walk. She's drinking her green. That's right, she is. She's good.

People said you couldn't help liking Clara. Oh, I love that. Now apparently the two of them began officially dating at a church social when Herman slash homes saw another boy hitting on her. Oh, no, you don't and he basically threatened this boy's life if he didn't back off Not worked apparently and they And like why did that work so well? I know why was it's not like you're not gonna do shit her when you can look me in the eye But this guy was probably like he probably will kill me

You're not gonna do shit, her, and you can't look me in the eye. But this guy was probably, he probably will kill me, so. Because a lot of people throughout his life were like, I think that guy's gonna murder people. Well, exactly. They just thought it. Like, he didn't even need to do anything violent. He did later.

But even before he was actively outwardly violent, it's like people were like, I don't know. I just feel like he's gonna murder someone someday. He just had that vibe. It was foreshadowing. I know feel like he's gonna murder someone someday. Like, he just had that vibe and I'm like, it was foreshadowing. I know you can't really do anything off of that vibe. Like, what are you supposed to do? Be like, I feel like you're gonna murder someone

so you should get arrested. Yeah, it works. It works. It does worry. Go listen to the rewatcher. That's a funny, funny little tidbit from there. The air worries about him and. It does worry about it.

But it worked for Clara, this whole threatening the guy that was hitting on her thing. I mean, I mean, a guy that she was like, all right, back in the day to fight for my own. Yeah, two guys fighting over your list. But you know what's sad? He's not going to. No, no, no. He's a piece of shit.

Yeah, of course. But he proposed not long after they began culting, and the two alloped in Altenew Hampshire in July of 1878 and they were both 17 years old. Now, on par with Herman's secrecy and general oddness, it was several months before his family or Claire's family even knew that they were married. Wow.

When they found out, because they just got married in front of like a justice of the piece. Yeah. When they found out they were not happy on either side, apparently Herman's mother, so H.H. Holmes's mother said Clara couldn't have found much worse. Which feels like a stark turn from the sweet family neighbors,

remember, and from Herman being like, yeah, my family was so kind and wonderful. I'm like, your mom didn't think this girl could find much worse than you. Oh, that's his mom. That's his mom. Oh, shit. So that's what I mean when I say, like,

imagine if you found out that your mom said that about you. And she was like, and I guess she said, like, oh, she's gonna have to support you. Oh, because she knew. She was like, he's a fucking deadbeat. Like, I know this. She's pretty, but that's pretty. And he loves money, but he can't get it himself.

So he's gonna take yours. Yikes. So damn, your own mom knew. That's rough. But then later, if you research a bit deeper into their family, it seems that was this weird, strange jealousy that his mother and his sister Helen actually had whenever he found a girl that he liked. I don't like that. There was something strange afoot there. I'm sure of it. I just don't know what.

You know what though? Like some families are like that. Yeah. Like especially if there's one boy, it's always like the crown jewel of the family. And it gets weird sometimes where it's like, I'm gonna kill any girl that comes near him and stuff and it's like, yeah. Yeah. I think there's a TLC show about it. It's always been a weird vibe to me.

Yeah. When like, it immediately makes me question one like, like, that's why I love my mother-in-law. Like, she was never, ever like that. No, my neither. Like it's a she in fact she always is like, you know, thank you for making him so happy. Yeah. Because she's just always like so kind and like supportive of it and she always has been. Yeah. I'd always a little off putting to me when like mother-in-laws or future mother-in-laws are like, I'll fucking kill you. And it's like, okay. I'll read you like I'll see TikToks where people

who don't even have kids yet, they're like someday my son will hate his girlfriend. And it's like, why are you gearing up for that? You can't. Yeah. Period. You can't. And you know what I'm saying.

Sit down. You can't. You can't. You can't. It's just a weird vibe. It is. Like, you should, like, my personal thought process with that and like, we're not getting off on attention,

so don't worry. Or maybe we are. It doesn't fucking matter. I'm not gonna go far, don't worry. But my personal thought about that is that like, I want to love the person, and I think we've talked about this before, that like, I want to love the person my kids love.

Of course. Whoever they are. As long as they're a good person and they make them happy, you know? Let's go. I'm like, cool. Eventually, I get more kids. Like, I get to be. Dude, that's what my future mother-in-law always says,

Drew's mom literally says she has six kids. See, and that's like, it's like that you should want. Why wouldn't you want that? Yeah. That's the ultimate goal. Exactly. I will love to love the people my loved ones love. Right. Like, you know, like that's how it should be.

Like, you want to make sure they're, like, if they're a shit person, obviously, no. No. But if, like, they've done nothing and you're just going into it, being like, I'm gonna fuck your world up. Like, that's a bad way to go into any relationships. And again, you can't. You can't. So, so her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her-

So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- So her- Whereas family was not too pleased to be there, but they were not pleased that they weren't really established. He wasn't stably working. Like they were like, ah, you guys kind of jumped into this.

And they were both 17. Yeah, I mean, which at the time, I guess it probably wasn't that weird in the 18 hours. Oh, it's true. But like, they weren't, I think they were just like, I would like you guys to have like a decent life. So we got to get you on track. So Claire's family took matters into their own hands

and set Herman up with a job as a clerk at the grocery store, at a grocery store in East Concord. And it was a grocery store where Claire's family owned. And a lot of Claire's family members work there too. And they said, while working with him, they got to know him better. Yeah, that's probably what they did. Yeah, and it was smart because they said, one thing about him was that if he even got the slightest compliment about anything,

it would blow his head up wildly. Oh, like a very much like a narcissistic kind of vibe. I'm not diagnosing him, don't worry. But get out of your armchair. Get out. I'm out of my armchair. But I'm just saying that that's viby with narcissism. For sure. Of course, definitely. He like, narcissism adjacent to what I'm saying. But he loved to be complimented. OK.

And would obsess over it. And it would just make him be like, oh, you know what I mean? Like, oh, you did really great at stalking those shelves. And he'd be like, well, that's because I'm the greatest shelf stalker, the side of the Mississippi. You fuckers, like bow down before me. Like, it was like too much. Like, it was never like, thank you.

That's usually where you should just go in. But you know, whatever, by all accounts at this time, the couple seemed fine. They seemed happy. In fact, people said he was seemingly in the beginning very smitten with Clara. People said he would walk like miles to see her after work and then walk miles back to work. I hate saying. Oh, I know. Because in the beginning, it looks like there was intentions of possibly living a life with clean. You know, but I think the intention was probably fleeting to the point of being like, maybe it, oh, and it's gone.

Like it was literally like, like couldn't even, couldn't even blink without like it was that quick. Cause he never had any good intentions ever again. So don't worry. Now a year and a half later, the couple's son Robert was born in February 1880. was born in February 1880. In his teens, he had been, like I said, very aimless, didn't really know what he was doing, but they said when he got married and when he became a father, it did seem to awaken some kind of like, I gotta get my shit together, kind of thing.

That's good. That's usually what it should do. He wanted to be somebody. He was claiming. Great. And Holmes's position as a store clerk didn't really give him an opportunity to rise up the ranks in his opinion, like enough. And it really was only meant to be a stepping stone because I think it was Claire's uncle

who I don't own the store. And he was like, I was just trying to give you this to get a leg up. Yeah. So like, come save some money. Don't go worse. Like I didn't want you to take over the fucking business asshole. Yeah, you know, so like, come save some money. Don't go work. Like I didn't want you to take over the fucking business asshole.

Well, his whole idea was like, hey, I was giving you this leg up, maybe you learn this business, and maybe you go open your own store somewhere. Yeah. Maybe you get to know this whole business. You, and then your store owner somewhere else. Right. And you know, everybody's happy.

And even if not that, like you took some money away. And you learned a little bit about business, you know, and working with people and finances and all this stuff. Just about being in the working world. Just being a human, you know? But he, Holmes quickly, Herman, I should say, at this point, he's not Herman, but he quickly grew pretty tired of this work.

He thought, quote, that he thought he was, quote, all together too bright for the life of a country storekeeper. Okay. In an interview after he was, quote, all together too bright for the life of a country storekeeper. Okay. In an interview after he was arrested, Clara actually said to reporters, father tried to encourage him by telling him that someday he could have a store of his own and could make a very comfortable living.

But he seemed to think he was too smart for such an ordinary occupation. He thought he could make a lot of money fast. He became imbued with the idea of becoming a doctor. And he used the talk of the immense fortunes that physicians had made in a short time, especially if they invented some patent medicine. He became obsessed with creating some kind of patented medicine.

I remember that part of the story. Now, despite his penchant for Get Rich Quick schemes, like he was that kind of guy, like you know those kind of people. Tommy Hover first. Exactly. He did seem at this time that he was becoming very serious about becoming a doctor.

So which wasn't a Get Rich Quick scheme, he was gonna have to go through a lot of training, obviously. And spend a lot of money. Exactly. So he did quit his job at the general store and he started studying with Dr. Neham, Neham Wright, who are white, excuse me, who had owned that practice in Gilminton, the one who on that office and was an anatomist. He was very, and he again, he was a very good doctor.

By all accounts, he was very respected, held many esteemed positions, like not bad things to say about this doctor at all. He just at the time was seen as someone who took it to a different level. Okay. Now maybe it wouldn't be, but back then it was. But he started working with him, he was wouldn't be. But back then it was. But he started working with him.

He was studying underneath him. And it's funny because he came full circle back to that office with the skeleton that scared the shit out of him. That's funny. Well, maybe that's why he said to, like, oh, it all started here. Yeah, and it's like, I wonder if his like extreme dissections and extreme kind of displays of anatomy in that office

was something that Holmes suddenly found himself drawn. Like sparked something within him. And when he wasn't working with Dr. White, he would spend a ton of time studying on his own time, medical books, any medical book he got his hands on because he just wanted to start right away. And by 1881, he took a job teaching at the Potter District School in Gilminton,

which remember he had taught before. And this was like a small class of like 15 students. So he didn't have a ton that he had to do for that job, so it allowed him a lot of time to study on the side. Okay. Meanwhile, Clara and Robert were living with her parents in Loudon. She was essentially raising him as a single parent. Like he was kind of absent from that child's life. Or well, maybe that's a better thing. I'm actually maybe it was better for him. But the distance between her and her men at the time

was just getting bigger and bigger. And in the spring of 1882, Holmes left, her men left Gilminton for Burlington Vermont. And he started studying medicine at the spring of 1882, Holmes left her men left Gilminton for Burlington, Vermont, and he started studying medicine at the University of Vermont, so he was even further away. Now, it should be noted that medical schools at the time were regarded pretty dubiously. If you listen to our Birkenhaar series, you remember talk of resurrection men, resurrectionists, or grave robbers. How could I forget? Med students themselves were basically known to graverop for their anatomy lessons.

It was almost one of those things where like, you could show how committed you were by being like, I dug my own corpse for anatomy today. Fantastic. Corpse's were not easy to come by legally at the time and pre-doctors got a doctor. So they're gonna do what they gotta do at the time. They gotta do it.

I found in one of the sources that we will list in the show notes, I found this epitaph of a nine-year-old girl named Ruth Sprig from 1918, 46 who died in Houssik Falls. This just kind of shows what people thought of physicians at the time. It reads, her body dissected by fiendish men, her bones anatomized, her soul we trust has risen to God, where few physicians were eyes.

Oh shit. They said physicians go to who? I was like, I don't know if that's really fair, but like they might see if your kid at some point or like you. At the time, that's the only way they had just discovered that you can't properly teach physicians without dissecting corpses is just the way it is. To this day we do that because you have to.

In order to learn about the human body, you got to open the human body up. Just the way it is. Hands on, baby. There you go. Fortunately, now it's all legal. It's all very... It's all very... You know, much more ethical, much more.

All of that good stuff. Back then, nothing was legal or ethical or anything of the, or fucking even hygienic. Like it's like COVID, or they still throw a shit out the window at this point. It was wily then. Like if you look at pictures, I gotta find the picture and we'll try to post it

of like these, you know, early med students in the 1800s doing a dissection. And we can blur out the thing if you want. But they are. They even put a note before. Exactly, just so you know, it's really not gruesome to be honest now. But all of them are in three pea suits

and just wearing leather aprons over their three pea suits while doing an autopsy essentially. And it's like, I can imagine eviscerating in a three-piece suit. I don't think you are meant to. Like, that is a wild, but how fucking dapper is that? Oh, I was saying to you earlier today. We were having this discussion,

even just like the fact, like, how women used to do their hair. I'm like, I wanna do my hair like that. I'm about to start fucking sleeping with socks wrapped all up in this knot. Yeah, to make it the soft curls. Yes, I love it. I like the voluminous of it all. So things back then they had it right. I mean, would I say that you should have necessarily eaten a 3-piece suit now?

No. No, but we got cool pictures from back then. Hey. So that's all the matters. Cheers. But either way, again, they were looked at as a little side ie. That big rest. That big rest.

I just wanted to set the tone. So very few peers or college faculty really seem to have even remembered her man much from this time period. But those that did said he wasn't exactly their favorite person. Oh, wow. He wasn't terrible. He wasn't that great either. Okay.

A woman named Mrs. Brew, who homes actually boarded with for nearly his entire stay in Burlington because they, med students would stay at boarding homes like people would keep them in there. It's like, talk. There you go. She makes exactly like that. She remembered her man saying that he was married. He was still married to Claire at the time. She forget it technically,

but he was, quote, always flirting with a number of young girls in Burlington. What a piece of poop. And he actually played particular attention to Bruce Daughter, which she did not like. Oh, no, and they're living together? Yes. Mrs. Brew also said that Herman would wake up early every morning and leave

the house for what he said were long walks for his health. Got to get those steps in. But yeah, it's like he put on his apple watch and he was out there. Herman on a hot clock trying to get that trying to close those rings trying to get to 10k baby on a hot girl walk. But he also would have wine with an elderly widow every day. And at first you're like, wow, that's lovely. But then it's like, no, he was just trying to get her money. Yeah. Like he absolutely was.

He was like, even Mrs. Brew was like, that bitch was trying to get her money. Yeah. Like 100%. You fake piece of shit. It's like in Gilmore Girls, when Kirk befriends elderly residents of Star's Hollow so that he can be put in their will and get their diamonds.

And then he sells one to Luke later to propose to Laura. You know, it's just like that. Isn't it wild that Kirk did that? Yeah. Like, I love Kirk. It makes sense. It does really does. I think he doesn't quite get the bad of it all.

Exactly. Now, according to Mrs. Brew, Herman was fine, generally pleasant, besides being like super flirt. Okay. But she said, when aroused in meaning aroused, like, I was like, I was gonna say, I feel like I need to like quickly, be like, she doesn't mean sexually aroused.

She doesn't mean they were flogging. When aroused, like when he would get like worked up, he had a most vicious and uncontrollable temper. I. My personal particular Herman story that is my favorite is that on one occasion, apparently, and this was confirmed by multiple people in the house. Herman's roommate, Fred Engels, borrowed Herman's mustache wax without asking for it, without asking permission.

And this led Herman to literally beat the shit out of him. Oh no. A huge physical altercation arose between them, like they bought the two of them. Shit. And quote, the Gilminton boy literally cleaned up the room with his companion. That's how it's described.

Oh my God. And I mean, this is my favorite because of what it is over. It's ridiculous. And left him with black eyes and a scratched face. Over a little bit of mustache. But the fact that it was over mustache wax is so Victorian, I can't. The only thing I can think of is that it would have been probably pretty expensive back then. And I also think he was just like a wild man.

Yeah. He was just ready to hurt someone at a moment's notice. I think you call that issues. Issues, I think so. He's so cute. Give him a tissue. Now, during this time, Herman was very focused on getting through med school

as quickly as possible. He wanted to start making that bank. And that's like not a thing. Not the way he wanted it. Not like quick. And this was seemingly at the cost of literally everything in his life. Well, most people knew he was married to a woman

in New Hampshire. He never really spoke about Clara to anyone. She never visited him. Instead, he just spent his time studying or he would kind of just pursue subjects that he didn't think were covered well enough in school. Which you would think would make him smarter, but it didn't. Mrs. Bruce said, quote, he always pictured himself but it didn't. Uh. This is Bruce. What it didn't.

Mrs. Bruce said, quote, he always pictured himself at the top notch of his profession. I rather thought he had a very high idea of his ability that he was self-conceited. Those are like the worst kind of people to be around too. Like you're just like, oh. Who you worst? Like, a know-it-all is not my faith.

And know-it-all is the worst kind of person ever. They really are We fucking hate no-it-all I hate them all they're the worst Every time I look in the mirror I'm like fuck you I had to say, my funny poem. I love it. It's not funny. It's not too much. It's good to me. I'm just kidding.

I have, you know, you have to laugh at yourself. But of all the subjects that he covered in med school, he was really into chemistry, which is a very grim foreshadowing of his future activities in Chicago, by the way, which we will get to. Oh, hate that. Can I just say? Yeah. I fucking hated chemistry in high school.

I like chemistry, but it was one of the hardest subjects to me. I never, I never understood chemistry. It's very interesting to me, but it is fucking hard. That was one of the subjects I struggled with. It is interest. Biology, I got you. But biology was loved. It's hard and organic chemistry. I think that's what I had to take. It is interest. Biology, I got you. But biology was loved. It's hard.

And organic chemistry. Whew. I think that's what I had to take, actually. Oh, and I literally almost lost. You took organic chemistry and high school. Okay, maybe not. I was like, what the fuck? Probably not.

I was like, probably not. Organic chemistry just sucks. I don't know, whatever we took, I didn't understand. But what's worse than chemistry is the other fucking one that you have to take. Maybe it starts with a P physics? Yeah, fuck physics. Fuck physics.

Oh my God, and I had this. I mean, like, don't fuck physics like in reality because like, we need it. No, we need so much physics. But like, I don't want to learn. A nurse, who knows her? I don't know her. Who knows her?

A nurse, I hardly know her. A nurse, I hardly know her. Who is like-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Mrs. Bruce said he was just always fucking around with liquids and concoctions in his room at the boarding house. Oh, that. With, like, in with with little free time he had, he actually got a tutor to help him in chemistry because he was so focused on it. Okay. Dr. J. O. Linsley, who was a physician

and expert in chemistry. And he did this because he thought the chem department just did a shit job. He was like, you're not doing enough. Okay. That's just like who he was. It's also like, you don't know what you're doing yet, so I'm not sure how you know that they're not doing it.

You don't know. But he quickly turned his room at the boarding house into like a laboratory essentially. Um, tons of bottles and all kinds of test tubes and fluids and unlabeled shit and like just starting to get wily up in there. And it scared the shit out of Mrs. Brew. Like it would scare me too.

He was like, she was like, it was starting to get a little too much for me. I think I'm like fucked in the head with like things that I like relate other things to. Why do you really think of it? All I can think of right now is Jack in the nightmare before Christmas trying to figure out the meaning of Christmas.

That's not fun. And then Sally is Mrs. Brew. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But my brain is just that. Like he's just sitting there like fucking around with my little friends Mrs. Brew. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But my brain is just that. Like he just sit there like fucking around with my wife. Take sure he was from yeah. Yeah, right? He's like, you know, dissolving. Her man's like what's this? Or an immense. Since that's like that's what I get in the air.

I hope not. Oh no, he said, this murder in the air because he's fucking terrible. He is not Jack Skellington. I still have Jack Skellington. It's wild to the amount of people that are in the same boat as you. Yeah, and it was, honestly, it was a foreshadowing to who I would marry because I love me a tall skeleton of a man. That's what I love. I love that.

With a great voice. Oh my gosh. There you go, because I loved Jack's voice. And everybody on planet Earth was John's voice. I mean, I can't blame you. He does. He's a great one. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪

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See additional terms at 1peloton.com slash home dash trial. Now, according to Mrs. Bruce, quote, her man was fairly wild over chemistry. Wild, no. He was wild. I love that she used that word too. Like, he was fairly wild. She was like, that dude was feral up there. He was going all up. But she said, and he was all the time experimenting with liquids in his room.

And while she kind of looked at it as he was just very committed to med school, It's probably more likely that he just wanted to get his much experience with chemistry because he wanted to patent that medicine to become fucking rich right away. He knew that was the subject to you. That's why he got the tutor. That's everything. It wasn't, oh, they're not doing enough at school and I'm just really committed to my education.

It's like, no, I need to make a medicine. So I can get a million-zillion dollars fast track. Now, he was always telling everyone at the boarding house that he knew what he was doing with the chemicals. Everyone needs to chill, but I don't blame everybody for being scared shitless. I'd be scared that it was just gonna explode. I'm also surprised that he was allowed

to have the amount of chemicals he had. I know they just kind of let it happen, but Mrs. Blue also said that when he left finally, that they found about three pounds of shingle nails hidden away in his closet. I'm sorry, hua. And they never understood what he had them for. That's the thing.

Probably for the better. Probably. We probably don't want to know why you have those. What do you have those? Like big nails. I think like roofing nails. Like fuck. Oh, like shingle.

Really heavy nails. But again, very determined to get this done as fast as possible. And he was kind of overextending himself in all directions to get this done. He was constantly taking on extra work. But then one day, this took a very dark turn. Right. Because again, he's doing all this extra curricular work on top of all his work. So the darkest one might say was when Mrs. Brue did her daily house cleaning. And one of these times she was sweeping upstairs and noticed a strong odor coming from her man's bedroom. So she starts investigating the smell and she's coming over to his bed and she's like, what is it? It's smell over here. What the fuck is this? So she sweeps her broom under the bed and something comes flying out.

And she was fucking horrified to discover that when she swept out the object under the bed that was creating the stench, it was, quote, the body of a baby, less than a year old stretched out on a board. Oh my God, I was not expecting that. None of us were. A real baby.

A human baby. Less than a year old. Who had obviously died was obviously being used for dissection and he took it home. But you can't be doing that. You can't just take it home. Because it was on a board, so it was obviously being a medical study. Specimen quote unquote. Sure.

To be dissected, but he took it home to use it. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not at all normal in any stretch of any imagination or legal. Nope, not at all. She fucking lost it, obviously, immediately confronted Fred Ingles because that was his roommate. Oh, yep. And she was like, where the fuck did this come from? And Fred was like, so he said, he had, he had, excuse me, Fred confronted Herman.

Because he was like, I don't know what that is. That's not mine. And he said that Herman told him that he had, quote, brought the body in during the night and had started to dissect it. And he had no idea how or where he had acquired this body, but he said, quote, the site was so repulsive to him that he could not go to sleep realizing

that that body had been in his room for how long. No, fucking way. Mrs. Bruce said she couldn't sleep for weeks and even like 13 years later when she talked about it, she was still like shuddering about it. Of course, I can imagine you have no idea what you're about to sweep under that, from under that bed and into that baby.

And he did it again another time. He brought him another baby at one point. I'm so very sure. Not to this morning house, right that in there. Well, that's the thing. He never said where he got this baby, but as soon as he got back that night, she was like, okay, new house rule,

dissection of human remains cannot happen in my house. Like, I didn't think I'd have to say that. Didn't think I had to add that to the lease agreement, but here we are. Wow. Yeah. It's like when you see the stupid warnings on things that are like, hey, don't eat this

like very horrible liquid that will turn your stomach inside out. And it's like someone ate that. Oh, 100%. For that to have to be a warning, or like don't stand in this trash compactor. And it's like that was because someone did it. And they had to put it down.

No, it's true. Now that's in her lease agreement for future tenants and people are like, someone did that and we do have to agree to it though. I'm not a little asshole. That one time ate a glow stick. Damn, I forgot about that. I was like very little.

Like it wasn't very recent. Yeah. It was like five years ago. I was like, okay. I was like, the other day. No, I'm just kidding. There's a while ago. But when the semester ended that summer, he told Mrs. Brew

that he was most likely not be returning to Burlington the following semester. And she was like, a bye. Yeah. And she was like, that's fine. And she actually said that he, quote, did not think that the university here offered enough advantages for such a brilliant and promising

young man. That's what he thought. That's basically what he told her. Get out of here. Yeah. And he was also, he was also apparently disappointed with the limited number of chemistry courses offered.

Very in the chemistry. I wonder why. And he felt that he could go to the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, and that would be a better place to go with a better price. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. So just a few months later, he followed through with the plan, and he enrolled at the University of Medicine, medicine at the University of Michigan.

So it was like, blah, blah. The medicine and the University of Michigan. I was like, blah, blah. The Medicine in the Michigan and the Medicine in the blah, blah, blah, blah. So for now, he's leaving New England. Mago, Mir, come back. Oh, and throughout this entire thing, Clara has been supporting him financially. By the way, Clara, and also raising their sons. We do know.

Like literally his whole life is being supported by Clara. Herman? I don't know, Herman. Fuck off. So Herman relocates to Ann Arbor in 1882. And despite his mom and his sister not being happy about it, Clara and the baby went with him this time. How dare you live with your husband and father?

Remember, they have a weird thing. You can't. His mom and sister Helen never liked Clara because of that weird jealousy thing, and they would frequently encourage him to end the relationship. Kind. Meanwhile, Clara's doing everything for him, but okay. According to Laura Young, who ran the general store after Herman left, she was Clara's cousin. She said, quote, when Herman went to Ann Arbor to study, Mrs. Muget and Helen thought it was outrageous for Claire to go with him. His sister Helen made the statement long before Herman left,

that he was not going to live with her any longer, and she must support herself. The sister used to say that Clara was not bright enough, not refined enough for Herman. Bet you guys regret that, huh? Yeah. Because your brother turned out to be one of the most disgusting con men and serial killers in history. Also outrageous. What a fuck.

Yeah, Helen. Clara's not bright enough or refined enough for your fucking monster of a brother. Yeah, Clara takes every seat. You want to, or not lock that statement back, Helen, and Mama Muget like really? That's a whole bunch of wild right there. Yeah.

That's one of those you wish you could take back. That did an age well. No. No. Clara began working as a dressmaker in Ann Arbor while he focused on finishing his medical degree. But they did not have a good marriage. Even before the couple left for Michigan,

Herman had said to Laura Young, Claire's cousin, quote, being married would likely prevent him from rising as far in the world as he would have let. He would have otherwise, and that he thought that he and Claire would knock it on together very well. He is wildly narcissistic. Like, he's literally like,

it's her dead weight that's making me not rise up in the world. And it's like, no, I think you're just dumb. And I don't think you're good at this. You're only moving around on her dime, asshole. Literally, she's the only one doing anything and raising your child. I think she could actually launch you into success if you fucking gave her a second.

So when they moved to Michigan, they lived in a boarding house. And the other borders there said that they remembered Clara very fondly. She said she was, quote, a very pleasant woman and willing to make any sacrifice that she might help homes along in his course. So they saw her as very sweet, very kind, and that she would do fucking anything for him.

Oh. Yeah. They also said the couple fought a lot and that Clara, quote, was sometimes seen around the rooming house with black eyes. Oh my God. Ding-ding-ding.

He officially crossed over into monster territory. What the fuck? So not only is he just like a lazy asshole piece of shit, he's a woman beater. He's a piece of shit too. So we have violence. Fuck you, Herman. Now, Clara struggled to keep the family afloat by herself for nearly two years, and the

brilliant ship was just crumbling steadily. And finally, just months before Herman graduated from the University of Michigan, she decided she had fucking enough abuse, and she packed up the few stuff that she had and took her son back to New Hampshire. I'm so happy that she was able to do that on her own volition. And later in letters, she claimed that in the decade that followed her going to New Hampshire, she quote, had known very little of her husband. Wow.

They actually remained married until he was executed. Oh shit, they never got divorced. That's right, he never divorced her, but married several more times. That's so crazy. Yeah, He was a piece of shit. Upon returning to Gilminton, Clara and Robert lived with actually Herman's parents for a little bit until she was, yeah. How was that? I know. Until she was able to find work as a dressmaker and she relocated herself away. And once she was away from, you know, the budgets, I was going to say,

that situation. Yeah. She focused only on Robert. She didn't think a fucking thought about what the fuck Herman was doing. She didn't give shit. And actually, Clara's cousin, Laura Young, said, even after he deserted her, she never chased after him as many women would. I think, however, that if Clara had followed Herman after he left her, because that's the thing. He had left her to go away and kind of abandoned her while he was in school and took all her money. And she just didn't stick around her way. But it was her who left at the end. Yeah. But she really got out of there.

But she said, I think, however, that if Clara had followed herman after he left her and went west, that we never would have heard of her again. I think that he would have killed her as soon as she commenced to be in his way for she would have never countenance to his action. Absolutely, because he was escalating by first he's like talking shit about her, then he starts hitting her. And then he, we, as we all know, escalates to murder. Yeah, to the end to agree of course. He's cheating on her. He's just like a piece of shit.

Yeah, I have no doubt he would have countered. She's very lucky to be ridded of that piece of shit. Yeah, I have no doubt he would have come to her. She's very lucky to be rid of that piece of dead weight. So good for her. They're lost like, exactly. 100 pounds. There you go. Well, in Burlington, you're like, I don't know, how much you weigh.

How much you weigh? That's how much you lost. Just a few stone. Exactly. Well, in Burlington, Herman was a rigidly devout student of chemistry, obviously, like we said. But in Michigan, he now shifted away from chemistry

a little bit and back to anatomy. And he really liked dissecting bodies. I don't love that. In fact, one of his fellow students, John Madden, said, quote, he seemed to take a good deal of pleasure in the uncanny things of the dissecting room. That's what I mean, when you look at it now, Heinz said, it's 2020 and you're like, oh yeah, that's fucked up, but like, yeah, I don't know.

Dissection is interesting. I can't really like say it's not, but the fact that he's a murder makes that weird. I've never dissected anything. No, it's definitely interesting. If you're doing it for the right purpose. Yeah, for biology and shit. Yeah, but he also was, that John Madden fellow student was quoted as saying, Holmes talked a great deal about what he had done in the dissecting room with what appeared to me at the time a necessary gusto and told me that the professor of anatomy at the time was to permit him to take the body of an infant home with him for dissection during the spring vacation,

which was to begin the following day. I asked where he would find a place to carry on his work without offending his neighbors, and he replied with something to the effect that he would find a place. So see, it happened again, where he asked to take home an infant. Why is it an infant that I just...

I don't know, but it's weird. Do you think, I feel weird saying this, but do you think it's like an infant is easy to carry home versus an actual body? I guess. I mean, that makes absolutely logical sense. Logical sense, like logistically, that does make sense. Yeah, but infants are also very hard to dissect. I would think. Like, it's not an easy die-avoceration or dissection for, they're tiny. You know, like it's all tiny and it's upsetting. It's more upsetting than any human dissection

has an element of sadness to it, but it's like a baby is a whole different level. And I would think that you would want to learn on a full grown body. Yeah. I would think learn more. Exactly. Well, there's just certain thing. I mean, at least you would think he would try it out.

I don't know though. It's just a strange thing, a strange quirk. But all in all, he was said to be a pretty below average student. Really? Very interesting. With all his extra work and everything, I don't know. Maybe it's that he like, he wasn't staying focused on actually. I think that's in a, exactly. And like taking the right steps, like he was going to T. Z. When you should have been at F.

Exactly. I think it was he was concentrating on what he wanted out of it and not what he needed to get out of it. And a lot of times you need, like, the foundations to build upon. And he was building with no foundation. Exactly. I don't think he was really focusing on the curriculum. I think he was just looking at what he wanted, which was chemistry, so he could patent a medication. Yep.

And he was looking at anatomy, because I think he was starting to feel some type of way. And I think he was only focusing on the things that he wanted for different reasons, and not for a medical degree, to become a doctor, to help people. Because does he ever become a doctor? He does. Oh, he does, okay. Yeah. He graduates.

Okay. And he does like, he works as a doctor for a little bit. Oh, okay. I don't know that. But he's really a fraudster. Yeah. And always. One teacher even voted against him graduating.

Really? He graduated by the skin of his fucking teeth. Shit. He was not good at medicine. He was not, he was not very adept at it. And one student described him hilariously as quote, he was distinctly what might be termed dumb. He was slow to grasp ideas and not ready at all in reasoning. Okay. Which is funny to hear considering he's an actual piece of shit. Yeah, you're dumb. Exactly. An anti- like, thingsy, so fucking smart.

Oh, he thinks he is the gift. This is, also hilarious and disgusting, but another said he was below mediocre. Another student also said that he smelled strange. Oh. And that he had a nickname. Do you want to know what his nickname was? Of course I want to know. his nickname was? Of course I want to know.

His nickname was Smegma. Eww! Oh! Aww! Please look that up if you don't know what it is. That's so gross. Just Google it and look at the first definition that comes up. And that's the first definition that comes up anyway now.

That's gonna give you an idea. Oh boy, he smelled like a fairly. look at the first definition that comes up. And that's the first definition that comes up anyway now. That's gonna give you an idea. Oh boy, he smelled like a pearly. Why did you smell like that? Ah! Oh, it's just looking at that. Oh my god, I can't even say that out loud. That's why I didn't.

I'm just gonna encourage you all. Why I'm still like foreskins. Why? Ah! Why though? Why though? Oh you. You know when you say smile, and then you feel as though, blah, blah.

And this is what this gave me joy, because it's like the great HH homes, the like infamous, like criminal of the century was called Smegma, by his peers in med school. So this little bitch is nothing, nothing but a four-skin, smelling, below-average student who couldn't even keep his first wife.

That's really fucking gross. Yeah. So moving on from that, now without Clara supporting his stupid ass, Herman was forced to find his own fucking job and support himself while he finished the degree. I'm still really affected. So he now founded his own job with William Hirdman, who was an anatomy instructor with the university, and he worked as his assistant. He was responsible to like, you know, mean-eal things like tending to the horses,

doing his errands, but he also prepared the bodies and assisted in the dissecting room. At this point, maybe he had plans to murder and defraud on like a galactic scale later. Proud. But I think it was more that this was kind of the training along with the whole chemistry obsession. This is all the stuff

that just kind of like slowly put the pieces together for him to become that later. I don't know if he had all that in mind quite yet. I don't think he really had the foresight. Probably came over time. But it was also at this time that he claims he and his classmates first came up with the idea of faking a death and then using a body as proof to defraud an insurance company, which became his thing. That's not good. Also in 1884, Holmes was in some serious trouble. He had to defend himself before the medical faculty after being charged with breach of promise.

Breach of promise. He got himself a breach notice, which he don't have a fun notice to get. Because they're usually bullshit. Usually. So he married, this one I think was real though. So he married. He's married to Clara. He's married to Clara.

Hasn't a worser. Hasn't legally separated from her in any way. Fantastic. Married until he was executed. Remember that. Well, he's staying now at a boarding house and the person who owns this house is a widow who also was a hairstylist by the name Mrs. Fitch. She and him started a relationship.

They started sleeping together. Gurley, he smells like smegma. No, no. And he made the promise of marriage to her, probably to get her into bed. And to get her money. That's definitely what it was. To make her sleep with him, he was like,

I will marry you. Of course, I'll make you an honest woman. Back in these days, that's fucking serious. That's serious business. You can't be married to someone else and promise marriage to another just to get them into bed. That's not just like distasteful and bad.

That's like, whoo. Can't you like hang for that trip back then? I mean, I don't know if you can hang for it, but you're not gonna graduate medical school. That's for sure. It's adultery, isn't it? It's a, I mean, I don't know if you can hang for it, but you're not going to graduate medical school. That's for sure. It's adultery, isn't it? It's, yeah. Yeah.

So Mrs. Fitch found a letter he was writing to his actual wife, Clara, at the time, who he was still talking to and corresponding with and kind of like stringing along a bit. Oh. And she ran to the medical faculty and was like, look at this, look at this. And then also showed them a proposal letter.

He had written to her, like written down the proposal, signed it with his name. Well, and she said, this is breach of promise. He promised me marriage and he is married to another. And if found guilty, he would not be allowed to graduate medical school and everything he had done would be for fucking not. So how did this fucker dance his way around?

Yeah, not. So he denied it fucker dance his way around? Yeah, not. So he denied it all. And his professor, Professor Herman, who he was assisting under her anatomy and assistant, he came to his defense. And he vouched for him, saying he thought he was truthful. He was like, he's an upstanding guy. I've never had a problem with him. I didn't, you know, I don't believe that this is real.

Well, Holmes got off on the charges, and poor Mrs. Fitch was left to look like a liar. So he graduates, he's able to graduate. On fucking graduation day, he shakes Professor Herman's hand, or excuse me, Professor, his name was not Professor Herman. Oh, no, not Herman. It was Herdman, excuse me.

So I was close. It's like you heard with Per. You heard, man. But No, not her. It was herdmen, excuse me. Oh, so I was close. It's like you heard with her. You heard, man. But you heard with her. But he shakes Professor Herdmen's hand and says, doctor, those things are true that that woman said about me. So he allowed this man to vouch for him. Why went on the day of graduation was like,

haha, fucker. That's it. That is such a dick move because he could just shaking his hand as one thing when you're a fight, when you lied to his fucking face, you're shaking his hand and being like, hey, asshole, you lied for me technically. And didn't even realize it. Wow. That's fucked. And Hirdman later said that this was the first moment that he realized that Holmes was, quote, a scoundrel. Yeah. And he later found out that he was more

of a scoundrel because after this, he dug a little deeper and found out that Herman, Holmes there, had burglarized his home. Herdman's home? Yup. And while staying with him once in an extra bedroom, Yup. He had pride open a locked drawer in his private library

and had tried to steal stuff because he knew he kept valuables in there. What the fuck? He had totally betrayed this man. I only felt like he got like bitch slapped, right? Like what a violation in every way. And I would imagine like at that graduation, they're in front of a bunch of people.

Yeah. And he can't have any reaction about that. And he's just quietly being like, hey, you vouched for me and you shouldn't have. Wow. But like thanks. What is now do shlocked? And he said he did it with diploma in hand.

Shook his hand was just like thanks for letting me grit this like What a piece of shit. Wow. I'm trying to like think of anybody that I can even compare that to right? It's just so dirty. It is such a dirty Poole down and dirty now Herman graduated from the University of Michigan in the late spring of 1884 and almost immediately He relocated to Moore's Forks. Yeah, girl, you did that. Not sure if I said that. I did.

It's a tiny hamlet in upstate New York. It had previously been part of a larger town of Champlain. Oh, okay. So once there, he opened a small tree nursery. He got weird with it like Matthew Hoffman did. Oh, yeah. He got a little weird with it, not as weird as Matthew Hoffman did, I will say.

Because he just kind of abandoned it a few months. It wasn't profitable, so he just abandoned it. Okay. But like what a weird little direction to take. And he does that to everything in his life that doesn't serve him, how he wants it to, he just abandoned it. Good.

At one point, he hired a primary school teacher named Minnie Everett for French lessons. She terminated that relationship pretty quickly because she said, quote, and at the time she said this, there is something lurking in that man's character that time will reveal. I did not like him. I firmly believe that he would commit murder. Wow, Mini. Like you were just here to teach in French. What made you think he's going to revolt to murder her? And for her to say that time will reveal like it hasn't happened yet, but something's something's in there. I love that she was a full blown witch. Oh, a full blown

witch. You can't tell me anything else. Minnie ever it. She knew. Oh, there's been people that I've said that. Oh, not the murder thing, but like that's the best feeling when you're like, I fucking knew you were wrong. I had your number the second I saw you. You have done that a couple of times that were like, chef's kiss perfect. Oh my gosh, thank you. Like in a first, you're like, no, it's fine. And then later you're like, what the fuck?

How did you do that? Yep, sometimes I just get a vibe. You just, I bet many was an empath. She definitely was. Anyway, he also aggressively refused to leave her alone after this for some time. So he was a stalker as well. Fantastic.

Yeah, he's a little bitch. But after this failure, Holmes petitioned the local school trustees to hire him on. And he was put in charge of the primary school. Like, he was able to get a lot of, he's one of those that you're like, how are you able to get all these things? But it's, oh, he's a con man.

Yeah. And he saved money doing this. are you able to get all these things? But it's, oh, he's a con man. Yeah. And he saved money doing this. He was able to save a lot of money and he opened his own medical practice. That's terrifying. During this early period in New York, he kind of perpetrated a small but kind of big medical con. It was his first one.

So a smallpox scare broke out in this town. And people were urging residents to get vaccinated against smallpox. And he saw this as an opportunity. So he somehow got his hands probably by stealing on a load of vaccines. And he loaded up a wagon and he went door to door through the northern part of the state vaccinating, vaccinating residents, and telling them that it was mandatory. Oh, and he was, quote,

representing himself as an authorized official of the Board of Health. He made the people think that it was compulsory, and in every household, he managed to get several cases for which he charged 25 cents each. So at the time, no one questioned his authority or asked to see his credentials, they just allowed it. If this man is trying to poke you with a needle, ask for a ID. Ask for anything. Ask his name. Ask for his library card and literally anything.

He's priced on a cracker, everybody. He made a lot of money doing it though. And obviously, people must have been terrified. So they probably were just vaccinating me. But that's what he fed on. He prayed on it. He loved praying on that kind of shit. Wow. So that was his first medical con. Can you imagine a big?

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the easy way by going to rocketmoney.com slash morbid. That's rocketmoney.com slash morbid rocketmoney.com slash morbid. But back in his medical office, he started setting up a laboratory because he was really trying to get that patented medicine. He was going to get rich from it. And to help him with this, he was said to have brought on in to stay with him for a while, his six-year-old son, Robert. And he, quote, and put him to work in the laboratory, putting up and putting up in bottles the liquid, which Herman manufactured. Although he never sold any of these things that he made,

like he just couldn't get the right concoction together. Sure. He definitely tried, but he also couldn't convince anybody to try any of his cares because people didn't trust him. I mean, so they were like, Mini came to teach him French and she was like,

you're a murderer. Yeah, like I'm a murderer. Mini knows. But what's weird about him is he's somewhat had been anomaly in the sense that he was a get rich quick guy and he was a con man, but he also didn't shy away from hard work. Like he would work for his cons. What is that my name motivated? Yeah, like he's very strange in that way. Like he doesn't have that like, like cut and dry, get rich quick personality. Right.

It's strange. But it should be said that while he claimed the boy in his company was his son, there is a lot of speculation that this was a completely unrelated boy who disappeared a little while after this. Oh, no. According to the New York's taught in New York times, there was a report filed shortly after he was arrested, like way later.

And it said that after he left his teaching position in New York that he had quote, went home, went to Massachusetts, hey, oh. But returned in a short time accompanied by a small boy who disappeared shortly after his arrival, home saying he had gone home. It doesn't appear that any investigation went into this boy's identity or disappearance, and nobody really went further into it. But if this boy has what like was part of something nefarious, then he was his first victim.

Holy shit. And they were never able to confirm whether that was Robert or not. And you would think it would be as easy as somebody reaching out to Clara. Yeah, and it's like, I think this might have been a boy that he took. Wow.

And used until he didn't need anymore. I hope not. I hope it was Robert and then he just went to Massachusetts to take a call. I also too. That's honestly. I hope it was Robert and money just went to Massachusetts to take a home. I also too. Like that's honestly, I'm hoping that, but I don't know. I can't be sure because he's such a piece of shit, right? It was also in New York that there were rumors about his inappropriate behavior with women. And inappropriate like he was a pig. And on several occasions,

he was known to have treated out of town women for what's only referred to as organic trouble in his office. What is organic trouble? Not sure. And there were rumors that they were all like that these women were treated and then disappeared because they were from a house of ill-reput.

Oh. So they were treated as less dead. Yeah. But there was never any confirmation of this, no identities that we can like hang our hats on. But that totally happened. It probably happened. And there were reports of Herman paying, quote,

violent attention to a young woman named Allen. What? Who eventually left town and was never heard from again. Oh. Hopefully she actually did leave town. Yeah. And actually there were rumors around this New York town that homes had actually married her. But they said that it like there was rumors that he had married her. But then there was rumors that she left town. But the ones that everybody kind of sits on is that she probably met a sinister end at his hands. It kind of sounds that way. And they just couldn't prove it.

And especially. But she's never found again. Yeah. That's definitely he did something. Especially if he had already killed that boy. Yeah, something happened here. Right. That's what I mean when I say there's definitely more over the ones

he confessed to and are confirmed. Right. And I think a lot of people think that. Now despite honestly referring to him as a hard worker and a generally like fine man, aside from his like preoccupation with like out of town women and being a little weird, residents found something just off-putting about him.

Like people around him were like, he was never like mean outwardly to people. He didn't do like, you know, he was a little weird, but like not like super stranger accentuate. Like there was just something about it as like Minnie said. There was just something that was gonna be revealed. Can't put your finger on that. We just didn't know what was.

And women in the village began sharing stories of his, you know, unwanted advances. And the men began noticing a growing trend of homes ignoring debts and making false promises to pay for things. And, but he always had an excuse. Of course. He always had an excuse.

So, he was a, women he was getting the reputation of being a pig, men he's getting the reputation of being a fucking deadbeat. So, on one occasion, his landlord confronted him and was like, hey, you haven't paid your rent and I've tried to get you to pay your rent for like fucking months. Oh shit.

And he said, he had come forward to him when he knew he had plenty of money. He was like, he's a doctor. Like, I know he has money. And he said, quote, the doctor would stand quietly by and hear himself call this scoundrel and a swindler in the strongest terms. Then the tears would appear in the doctor's eyes and trickle down his cheeks, but he never

said a word and reply. So he would just sit there and let people be like, you're a fucking scoundrel, you're a swindler, you're a piece of shit, like you're just like you're a dead bee bow and you would just sit there and cry. And never say anything. That's very strange. Right? And also like sad, but like, I don't wanna feel sad.

No, no, because I think it's fake. It's fake as fuck. Those tears are Croca dial tears, my friend. He would cry because he knew it was gonna disarm anybody around him to see this moustacheo gentleman weeping openly after being called a scoundrel after refusing to pay for things he should have fucking paid for. Well, and I think he's officially a physician. They were probably like, what is happening right now? Back then they're like, I'm man crying, what? So straight. I

definitely did it just to disarm everybody. And probably he just unhinged I feel. Yeah, he was fucking monster, but he took similar approaches with his medical office landlord because he always had an excuse for not paying and then he would make empty promises to pay and then he would just cry when he was confronted or he would go into a rage sometimes when he was confronted and they would just be like, forget it. Well, I was going to say that some people cry when they're mad. Yeah, and it could be that he was just trying to like keep it together, but he was crying. Right. And at one point, he produced a letter that supposedly was sent from someone

in Gilminton, where he was from, claiming his uncle had died and left him a substantial inheritance, which he said, Oh, see, I'll be able to pay you. Yeah, you just have to open the email attachment. Yeah, just like it does. Yeah, open that email attachment. It's definitely not a scam. Your royal uncle has passed away. Exactly.

So Herman's reputation in this New York village continued to decline towards the end of his residency in the village. And not long before leaving, he was involved in a scheme that was to avoid paying his debts that definitely will give you a little bit of a foreshadow into his later crimes. According to the Daily Boston Globe, there was an older soldier of veteran living in town who had for several months been dealing with like an unknown illness. It was like a shuddering cough, a lot of pain. And the doctors kept trying to tell him it

was malaria. But this soldier said, no, that's not it. He refused to believe this diagnosis. And he believed that it was being caused by an injury he had received during the war. He said he'd gotten shot. There was a bullet lodged in his lungs in his like, the area of his ribs. And he said it's pressing his ribs against my lungs. And it's, it's pressing his ribs against my lungs and it's making it hard for me to breathe. I know that's what it is. But ultimately he was dying. So it really didn't matter to him personally

what was going on. But if the injury was the result of him serving in the war in the military, his widow when he passed away was gonna be granted his full pension. So he wanted to make sure, which I'm like, oh, I'm wanted to make sure, which I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, this man.

I know and this poor man is like, I want my wife and my family to get all of that money. Yeah. So I need to make sure that I'm diagnosed before I die correctly. Like he was doing this only for them. I'm like, what a good man. Also, what a fucking, like, I know future to face.

So for that reason, he asked Herman's landlord Edward Steele to be present for his autopsy, which I'm like, oh my god, imagine having to ask that. No. But Edward Steele couldn't come to the autopsy. So it was conducted without him there. And again, his cause of death was labeled as malaria. So Edward Steeel felt horrible,

and he was desperate to make sure this widow got the full pension. So he asked Herman to do a second autopsy with him to help him. And he was like, of course, I will. I loved dissection. So when he, so Steel's like, okay, you finish it, you tell me what you think. I want to see what you have to say about this.

So, he asked them for the results at the end of it. And Herman looks at him and says, yeah, I have evidence. But only, I'll only give it to you. So, he's already extorting him. Yep. If that my rent is paid in full. Wait, like, I'll only do my job if you pay my rent. You are asking me to help out of the goodness of my heart.

Which I don't have. This widow. To make sure he had this man's dying wish. You're, I have evidence that could help this. But I won't let you go. I won't let you go. If you say that my rent is paid and full, what a fucking jackass. And he said, if you don't do that, I'm going to keep the evidence of the autopsy and the

widow won't get the full pension. And I don't give a shit. Oh my God. And the evidence he had, he had the actual ribs. He had evidence that they were pressing against that man's lungs. Correct. Wow. He kept those broken ribs because Edward Steele looked at him and was like, go fuck yourself.

Yeah, you absolutely. I'll figure out another way to get her her pension. And you know what, he did. Thank goodness. He got that widow his pension and Holmes, Herman there, Herman fucking mudge it. He kept those two broken ribs. What a fucking... No one knows what he did with them, but he kept those fucking ribs.

Would have never gave them over easy person like what that's so we like what yeah So shortly after he had done this you know, extorted false evidence for payment of his rent Yeah, he tried to leave this village without saying anything to anyone or paying any of his debts he was just gonna leave all of it behind. And although his landlord literally found him loading the wagon and being like, hi, you still owe me all this money. He couldn't really stop him. Like, he just, the last anyone heard from him from this village

was a letter sent from Tilton, New Hampshire, saying he had business to attend a New Hampshire and he would be in touch to settle his debts at a future date. Doubt it. Ding ding ding, he never did. Wow. Now, after leaving, Holmes returned to New Hampshire briefly and just tried to take full custody of Robert.

Yeah. Wow. Just. Why not? No. You know, I haven't been part of his life for six years. Who I know. No. And again, Clara and he were technically still married. So he never actually lost custody of him. He just abandoned them.

It's unclear what actually happened here. But Clara ended up taking their son to her father's house and he left the state. So like she was like, no, good try. She's like, you're a word of the piece of shit. No, you can't have our son. But he definitely tried to. And without a job now or any source of income, he said, quote, starvation was staring me in the face. Doubt it. And he sold his horses in Tilton, and he boarded a train for Pennsylvania. And when he left New Hampshire for the last time, he wanted to leave behind everything, meaning he wanted to leave behind Herman Webster budget. He was now going

to be known formally as Dr. Henry Howard Holmes. H-H Holmes. Do you have any idea how he came up with that name? I do not. He just wanted H-H-H. Yeah, sounds like H-H Holmes is a, I don't don't know how I mean I think he just made it he thought it sounded good. There's all kinds of speculation that he used Sherlock Holmes as inspiration, but that wasn't published until a year after. Oh, so it wasn't it. You pressed an incorrect so I think it was just there was a name he came up with I guess. Okay, unfortunately a good one. I guess. Okay. Unfortunately a good one. So he homes now arrived in Norris town, Pennsylvania, which is a town just outside of Philadelphia

in the fall of 1885. And he found the city wasn't as bump in as he thought it was gonna be. A lot fewer opportunities than he was expecting. He was such a hinder. Wow, this place is bumpin. Wow, guys, this place is bumping. Wow, guys. This place is so bumping.

I don't know. I don't know. A city could bump, I suppose. But that was great. A lot is really known about this time period. There is some evidence that suggests that just days after having arrived, he walked into the police precinct and told officers there that he was, quote, on the verge of starvation and had come here with

the express intentions of committing suicide. That's a quote. Oh, I don't know if that actually happened. That is a report. Police officers did say that happened. So who knows what that was about? They took pity on him, and they let him stay in the station while they tried to find him some work, and they ended up finding him work in the Norstown State Hospital, which was a state-funded psychiatric hospital,

a few miles from Philadelphia. So that would never happen today. Well, that's, here's the thing, he either, because it's not clear if that particular part happened, there's some stories like that that, I don't know if that was later concocted by him to gain some sympathy. But he did get a job working at this hospital. You just don't know how. This is the story he tells.

I wouldn't believe shit that comes out of his stuff. Yeah, I don't know if. Yeah, this is the story he tells. Like I want to believe shit that comes out of his show. Yeah, I don't know if I buy that. Like they just touch it. Such pity on you, you're poor lad. But no matter what, he did get work at the Norris town state hospital. And years later, in his autobiography, Holmes said that it was a very troubling experience for him. He said, quote, so terrible was it that for years afterwards, even now sometimes, I see their faces in my sleep. Good. The patients at the Saganter hospital. I'm glad he was haunted. Now, after just a few months in Norris town, he actually abandoned that job at the state hospital, because that's what he does, and found a new position at a pharmacy in Philadelphia, which is much

more his speed. As would become his MO, this job also didn't last long, and there was some mysterious shit that happened before he left it. Right, bro. He abandoned the job and Philadelphia completely after a local boy died after taking some medicine purchased from homes at the heart pharmacy. Oh, he claimed he had nothing to do with the medicine,

nothing to do with the boy's death, but it definitely put a black mark on his already questionable reputation, and there really wasn't a future hint for him in Philadelphia after this because people were like, no, thank you. Yeah, like where else is it? Yeah, I'm doing an X sign with my fingers,

just so you know, everyone went, no, thank you. That's a way for us. So this is when the idea of faking a death and using a substitute dead body to defer out insurance came back around. They had talked about it a little in college. It's coming back and Holmes now is ready to do it.

Okay. Because now he's like, I've tried this working thing for a minute or two. Too hard. And it's hard. So let's just scam insurance. Money please. Now, a quit money.

So according to him, he apparently contacted an old college friend, which imagine how hard that was back in the day. Yeah. You had to really want to contact someone. I think that all the time when I'm driving and I have my GPS on, I'm like, how the fuck would I ever get anywhere? Yeah, I wouldn't know where anything. Like, how do people do that?

How do you do it? Maps. I suppose. They didn't add the back then. There where anything was. Like, how did people do that? How did you do it? Maps. I suppose. They didn't, there was a point in time when they didn't have that shape. Either way, he was also, his friend was in dire straits financially as well. And they decided that they would get one more friend

involved and this other friend was going to be the one to increase his life insurance to $40,000 at the time. And he would do this by telling the insurance company that he dealt with some kind of life-altering experience that made him concerned for his family's well-being. So we wanted up the amount. I feel like you might need to get a little more specific than that.

I guess back then insurance was just like, sure thing, buddy. Yeah. Now, he would then later, this man, the plan was to send his wife and child somewhere out west near California. And he was going to fake confess via letter that he had killed them both in some kind of alcohol-induced frenzy and add that he had dismembered and pickled their bodies. I figured that was to make sure he didn't have to show bodies to insurance, but like

that's not the case, which is weird. And then he was going to have claimed to have killed himself in the note, this friend. Okay. Then the money would go to a quote unquote relative of this man, wink wink, nudge nudge his friends. And he would move out to where his very much alive wife and kid were, live with some of the money that was shelled out to him. It was going to be between the three of them, you know, live an obscurity. That's a thing I've never thought of. Like, if you murder your family and you're a murderer

who gets your life insurance payout, like, will, like, do you get a payout if you've murdered somebody? No, I don't think you get it if you were like, but no, but like the person. So like, if you have murdered and then yeah, killed yourself, whoever is in your policy gets that money. Exactly. Ooh, whoo, it's a weird thought. I know it is weird, right? And that's what the, that's what they banked on was like they could control who he wrote down in his policy. Right. Now me thinking the dismemberment detail was to make sure he didn't have to show bodies. Apparently that wasn't right. They had to show bodies. Regardless. Three bodies, which meant they were going to have to procure three imposter dead bodies,

including a child and put them in a pickle jar. Yeah, and like I was like you would have to dismember them. Yeah, that's a lot. So he went to Minion, so at this time, so this is what they wanted to do. Plan the whole thing out. So Holmes had went to Minionapolis and Chicago during this time. I don't know why I said many inapolis, many apples. You know what? I was going to let it go and then I was thinking the world. You know, I was so glad you could thank you because that's I rolled over and I said,

oh, that's not a big deal. And I said, yep, that's a big deal. And I went back many apples. This is what I meant. And Chicago during this time and he was able to get a job as a drug clerk and a pharmacy. And according to him, he was able to procure bodies pretty easily by buying them from med school anatomy rooms at the time because now he had money.

Mr. Book, Mr. Hex. Exactly. Now, also, that was just very easy to do back then. So he'd be well-known. He got two bodies. Okay. He was able to buy two bodies, probably adult ones, I assume, and put them into barrels, which he stored in a room at the McCoy hotel in Chicago. Damn.

But apparently, after hearing or reading about how well insurance companies checked into cases like this, and would require a lot of evidence and proof, right? He decided they should abandon the whole idea. Now, he had two bodies now. Yeah. So, this is when he says, okay, well, I just said, like, oh no, and I just buried those bodies in my basement, like not a big deal. This story, people believe, was possibly concocted and changed a bit to help him explain

why there were a lot of bones found buried in his Chicago place. Oh, good. He, they were probably the results of something even more sinister, just what we don't know, but he wanted to make it look like, well, I purchased bodies legally, and then I just buried them down there because we decided not to go ahead with the scheme. Like, don't fucking put those on me, buddy. And it's like, I know, I think you killed those people. Like, there's a lot to unpack here.

That's the thing. Like, he comes out with things and it's like, uh, legal, right? And it's like, no, I think you killed them. And I think you're so good at lying that the only thing you are good at is you're making this story up so that we don't question those bones in the basement. But in reality, if they had questioned those bones in the basement, which they didn't in time to identify them or figure something out,

we probably would have figured out that those were missing people, probably. Hundope. Guarantee you. Damn. So he leaves Philadelphia in the spring of 1886 after definitely murdering people. And he eventually settled in Englewood, a suburban neighborhood on the south side of Chicago.

And this is where shit really starts to get wild. And it's where you're gonna be. And it's where we're gonna end part one. I agree with you. You shh. Because the Chicago Chronicles are really where. It's a whole new era. Are the Chicago Chronicles bumping?

They're bumping in some way. Not in a good way. Is that what you see as a bump in, right? I said bump in, I'm not sure, did bump in. That was something I said. You know, bump bits are coming back. That's upsetting. Yeah, that's upsetting.

That's what I'm saying. But that's it. Yeah, that's it upsetting, until the end. So bye. That's it, bye. Just kidding. But yeah, stay tuned for part two, and he gets worse and worse. So fantastic.

Yeah. Happy anniversary to us. Yay, five years. Woohoo, thanks, guys. We love you, and we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it! Weeeeeeere! But that's a word that this entire time, every single time Alina has said something about him writing his own autobiography,

all you can think of is actually Simpson singing autobiography while Henry Holmes or is that his name Henry? Yeah. And while he writes his autobiography, he's like, My autobiography! That's all I've been thinking. Bye. Man, I'm having a big, big, big, big, big. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. What if you were trafficked into a cult over shot nine times, or fell in love with a vampire, or went into a minor surgery and woke up one week later, paralyzed. What would you do? I'm Whit Missaldine, the creator of this is actually happening, a podcast from Wondry that brings you extraordinary true stories of life-changing events, told by the people who lived them.

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