Morbid - Episode 463: The Pamela Smart Case (Part 1)

Episode Date: May 29, 2023

Mention the Pamela Smart case to someone in New Hampshire, and they'll know exactly what you're talking about. The case captivated the nation in the early 90's and at the center of it all, of course, was Pamela. A New Hampshire native, she had big dreams of becoming somebody and making a name for herself. She moved away from her small town and almost did, but in the name of love she moved back home and settled into her career as a School Administrator. It was via that position that she would meet young sophomore in High School, Billy Flynn. Pam groomed the boy, and had him thinking they were fully in love before she asked him a question that would change both of their lives forever: Would he murder her husband? In part one we'll cover the early life of both Pam and her husband, Gregg Smart, we'll break down how Pam and Billy became involved with each other and just how Pam got Billy to believe that murdering her husband was what it would take for them to be together forever.Special thank you to the brilliant David White for research assistanceReferencesBaker, Frank. 1990. "Smart to be jailed until trial." Concord Monitor, August 14: 1.—. 1990. "Widow charged as accomplice." Concord Monitor, August 2: 14.Carton, Barbara. 1991. "The Pamela Smart story." Boston Globe, Marcg 21.1991. NH v. Smart: Opening Statements. Directed by Court TV. Performed by Court TV.Derry News. 1990. "Family and friends puzzle over murder." Derry News, May 4: 1.Englade, Ken. 1991. Deadly Lessons. New York, NY: St. Martin's Press.Gaines, Judith, and Alexander Reid. 1991. "Jurors say tales a key to their decision." Boston Globe, March 23: 1.Hernandez, Monica. 2023. Accomplice in Smart murder asks for sentence reduction. January 10. Accessed May 1, 2023. https://www.wmur.com/article/smart-murder-vance-lattime-sentence-reduction/42449265.Hohler, Bob. 1991. "3 guilty in N.H. killing." Boston Globe, January 30: 1.—. 1991. "Confidant was wired by police." Boston Globe, March 15: 21.—. 1991. "Smart is found guilty." Boston Globe, March 23: 1.—. 1991. "Smart pleaded for life, N.H. teen-ager testifies." Boston Globe, March 6: 19.—. 1991. "Tales of seduction." Boston Globe, March 12: 1.—. 1990. "Tape offered at Smart hearing." Boston Globe, August 14.—. 1991. "Witness: Smart asked for tips on reaction." Boston Globe, March 3: 27.—. 1991. "Youth says blood flowed, tears did not." Boston Globe, March 13: 35.Kilgannon, Corey. 2023. "Smart, who plotted with a teen lover to kill her husband, loses a parole bid." New York Times, March 30.Kittredge, Clare. 1991. "A verdict to take to son's grave." Boston Globe, March 23: 1.—. 1991. "Smart trial garners big TV audience." Boston Globe, March 17: 1.Richardson, Franci. 1990. "Mrs. Smart absolutely convinced husband surprised thief." Derry News, May 9: 1.Sawicki, Stephen. 1991. Teach Me to Kill: The Shocking True Story of the Pamela Smart Murder Case. New York, NY: Avon Books.Schweitzer, Sarah. 2015. "5 years later, shooter to go free: William Flynn was 16 when he was lured into murder by Pamela Smart." Boston Globe, March 13: A1.State of New Hampshire v. Pamela Smart. 1993. 622 A.2d 1197 (Supreme Court of New Hampshire, February 26).Wang, Beverley. 2005. "Pamela Smart accomplice released." Concord Monitor, June 15: 10.West, Nancy. 2016. Breaking Silence: Cecelia Pierce Speaks. October 12. Accessed April 24, 2023. https://www.nhmagazine.com/breaking-silence-cecelia-pierce-speaks/.West, Nancy, and David Mendelsohn. 2016. Pamela Smart: innocent of (still) guilty. October 13. Accessed April 29, 2023. https://www.nhmagazine.com/pamela-smart-innocent-or-still-guilty/  https://www.bostonherald.com/2015/03/09/brother-of-pamela-smarts-victim-killer-did-his-time/Thanks to Care/of for being a sponsor of this episode. For 50% off your first Care/of order, go to TakeCareOf.com and enter code MORBID50.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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than the national average savings rate. Apply for your Apple card now in the wallet app on iPhone and start growing your daily cash with savings today. Apple card subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple card owners, subject to eligibility requirements. Savings is available to Apple Card owners, subject to eligibility requirements. Savings accounts provided by Goldman Sachs Bank USA. Remember FDIC? National Average Savings Rate is from FDIC website. Terms apply. Hey, Weirdos, I'm Alena, I'm Ash, and this is... is morbid. There's a fucking fruit fly in my face and he's about to catch these goddamn hands. It's fruit fly season. You get the apple cider vinegar out, fellas. Get it out everyone.

From these little bitches. It's that time yeeees. Someone's gonna be like, I love fruit flies and you shouldn't kill them. You bitches. Um, no, they're not great. No, I'm sorry. Yuck us. I'm sorry, I'm not a fan.

I will never be a fan. Just like I'll never be a fan of house centipedes. Oh, God. Yeah. Even though we got to see a lot of our network babies this the last week. You'll be honest. Yeah, and I was talking to Sean from Moosely Horror. Go listen to it.

It's great. And he was saying he would much prefer a house centipede over a cockroach, and I said I would take neither, please. You know what I just heard in my head? Choose your fighter. That's, yes. That's basically the conversation we had, and I can't choose. I don't want either.

No, that's a Sophie Struist. I can't do it. I can't do it. No. And actually yesterday, this is pretty funny and also embarrassing. Don't I like this story? I was getting, I was, it was Mother's Day.

So I got my like allotted, you know, however much time just by myself to get ready. Like that was my like anytime. I just want to take a shower alone, like without kids being like, hello, like can I ask you questions while you're showering? And just like put makeup on, do my hair. You look super cute in your hair. I was like, damn, bro. Appreciate it.

That's what happens when I get uninterrupted time to do my hair. But I was doing that. And I had picked up my towel to get something in my hair tie, a black hair tie, fell out of it onto the bathroom floor. And then somehow it rolled on its side. I've seen that. So it rolled very quickly across the floor.

I thought it was some kind of awful bug that fell out of my towel. Oh my god. And I yelped so loudly. I don't blame you. I have never yelped like that for like, like, an actual reaction. You just yelped.

I yelped straight up yelped. So like my dogs. I was like, it was like, I can't even recreate it because it was just a real organic nervous system response. Can't help it. You don't even know of. But when it settled on the floor and I said, oh, that's a herelastic.

I was very embarrassed all by myself. That's funny though. It was funny, but it was very embarrassing. No one was there to witness it, but it was embarrassing. Did you lawlet yourself? I did. I laughed immediately afterwards, but I was like, damn, that was really ridiculous.

And then you look in the mirror and you're like, that's a moment we just had. Yeah, I was literally like, I looked at myself and I was like, don't tell anyone that you are telling everyone. That's hilarious. But yeah, that's how afraid I am of things that run really fast on the floor. I went to myself and I was like, don't tell anyone. That you are telling everyone. That's hilarious. But yeah, that's how afraid I am of things that run really fast on the floor.

I don't like it. Nobody needs that many legs. No, no. Like thank goodness I have two dogs now who will eat everything that runs across the floor. Yeah, I don't want them to eat a house centipede. Yeah, they're fine, they're good. All right, how do we change the subject?

They're also gonna be fucking huge. These. What are you gonna be? They already are Mastos and they're just gloops and I love them. They're like 35 pounds. Yeah, they're like huge. They come smiggies They get a big and they're gonna be like a hundred pounds. Those are my ladies. Those are my hellhounds 100 pounds of Bad assery. Oh, yeah, they, they're literally gonna be 100 pounds each, I think, and- Like, I've never taken. We're basically, they're gonna,

and they are already like ready to protect my kids with their lives. Oh yeah. I'm just gonna train them to like eat people live. I'm totally kidding, so don't call like an animal shelter or something, I don't know. So I'm not training them to eat people, don't worry.

No, never, they just eat like dog food. Yeah, and like they'll just eat you if you're a dick. Yeah, don't be a dick. Yeah, cause they'll eat you. Don't be a dick, because my dogs will eat you. The bling, the bling, the Sydney will eat your ass. Yeah. I'm just kidding, everybody.

They're funny. But they're great. And you know, now I think it's time to get into some true crime because we have had our chitty chat. Our little chit chat, little chit chat, chit chat, pit pat. Yeah, this is honestly a long one, settle in. And it's gonna be a two pada. Oh, we got a two pada.

So get ready for a cliffhanger, my guys. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Yeah, all right. I'm ready. Oh my goodness. Yeah, right. I'm ready. We're going over, especially because it's like, you know, like, five years of morbid, holy shit, let's do big cases. Elena did five parts of the HH Home series, which if you haven't

listened to that, eat yourself back there. And now I'm doing a really big story also about somebody from New Hampshire. Look at that. Except my whole thing takes place in New Hampshire. Oh, she doesn't like vibe around the country. Thank goodness she doesn't. Or the world I should say. No, no, no, she doesn't do any of that.

We're gonna be talking about Pamela Smart today. I know that name. I you know that name too. I feel like a lot of people, like at least here in New England, are familiar with that name. Yeah. But if it's a name you've never heard of, or it doesn't ring a bell quite yet, we're gonna

start at the beginning. Here it is. Here it is, honey. So one of the key people at the center of the story, obviously, is Pamela, Pamie. I believe her maiden name is Wojoss or Wojoss. Okay. I tried to look it up and it, like, nope, nowhere. They were like, no.

You type in W-O-J-AJAS pronunciation and it gives you many, many pronunciations for every other word. I love that. Yeah, so I tried. You gave it a shot. I watched her do it. She did. I was here.

Yeah. So anyways, Pam Pammy was born on August 16th, 1967 in Miami, Florida. She was the second of three children born to John and Linda will hospital hospital. There you go. Now, John and Linda, they had gotten married pretty young and in the early years of their marriage and as parents, they struggled to make ends meet.

But both of them worked super, super hard. John worked out a printing company and Linda was a stenographer. Whoa. I know. We got stenographers again. Stenographers a stenographer. Whoa. I know. We got stenographers again. Stenographers in the house. Wow.

But so they both worked like super, super hard. And eventually that hard work paid off and they were both able to kind of climb that corporate ladder. Good for them. So now they were more like upper middle class and they had money to spend on their kids that their parents never really had to spend on them.

But at the same time, they were living in late 60s, early 70s, Miami. And while their neighborhood was a safe place to live, the rest of Miami was not exactly the safest at this point in time. Violent crime was on the rise, social tensions were flaring. So John and Linda were going back and forth throughout the years, deciding on whether they should stay or if they should move back to mass where they had both grown up.

Mass being. Mass of trusses. Mass of trusses. On of that place. But the decision kind of made itself for them when the riots in Miami started. Now, if you're not familiar with the Miami riots, they did take place in 1980 after an all-white jury acquitted for policemen who had beaten a black man, Arthur McDuffy, to death, which like really scary how history repeats itself. Hmm, they were like, yeah, we should get out of here. Yeah.

So they had both grown up actually in Loll, Massachusetts. And they were so weird to hear like. I know. You know, not a lot of like our stories are this close to no, and this one's like I was in New Hampshire this past week. Yeah, like I was like in the area. Yeah. So they had both grown up in Loll and they would always take their kids to New Hampshire during summer vacation. So after thinking about it for a while, they decided, you know, why don't we move to New Hampshire? Like, we love it so much.

We love to spend our summers there. Why don't we move to Wyndham, New Hampshire? And it was in 1980 that they decided to do that. Now, Wyndham was a safe quiet town and the nearby areas provided a lot of job opportunity. So they knew it was gonna be like a good move. Yeah. John actually got a job at Boston's Logan Airport.

Oh, hey. Which it was weird to write Boston's Logan Airport. Oh, hey. Which it was weird to write Boston's Logan Airport, because it's just Logan to us. It's just Logan. And he actually eventually became a pilot. Damn. And flew commercial jets for Delta. Wow, good for John.

Isn't that crazy? That's badass. He made really good money and he was able to provide a lot for his kids, like as far as home and activities were concerned. But because his job was as a pilot, and he worked for a commercial airline, he did have to travel a ton, and he was away from the family for stretches of time.

Yeah, that's a big toss up. I'm always a base of pilots. Imagine just one of the fucking flying through the air. Like, imagine being like, yeah, I just fly planes for a living. That's my job, is I just bring 180 people onto this plane, and then I fly them across the country. And then I have to land it safely and do it all again like an hour later.

Like, if you're a pilot listening, poor one out for pilots, because my guys, my gals, like you are. Woo, also, I'm imagine how fun that would be. Yeah, I would love to fly. Well, you can. But I would love to fly at home. I would love that.

I mean, I imagine if you are a pilot, you love to fly. So I'm sure it is a fucking blast for them. Just like yeehaw. And also pilots always make me feel better. Whenever I talk to a pilot, they're always very good at making you understand how safe flying is. I'm always like, I trust you. Yeah.

I trust you with my life literally. I guess you would have trusted John. I would have. Well, he did love. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Okay, cool. But the thing was he was struggling with his family, especially like his wife and his kids, because that's what your family is. But because he had to be away for so long. But the thing was he was struggling with his family, especially like his wife and his kids because

that's what your family is. But because he had to be away for so long. And most of Pam's high school friends, they have a ton of memories about her mom, but they don't really remember her dad that much because he was away. Yeah. Now some of those close friends, that is tough. But some of those close friends who did remember Pam's dad really just remembered that he and Pam were never close. One of those friends, Sonia Simon, would put it that Pam quote, didn't really have a close relationship with her dad, but then again, he really wasn't home much. I think she thought he was kind of cheap,

which is like, did you know? I think he's just working. He's trying. And the thing is, from what I read at least, again, I did not grow up in this house, I don't think up in this house. I don't think he seemed very cheap. I think it was more that he wanted his kids to know how it took hard work to make money.

Well, they had lived through living paycheck to paycheck and dime to dime. Yup. They know what it's like to have to stretch that dollar as far as you can. So getting money after that, I think it's like you are automatically still in that mindset of like, I need to make this less. So you make smart decisions with your money, to be honest. They're just trying to like make it less. And they're teaching their kids that like,

like for instance, Pam was to get a job when she was 13. And I think that was probably the age back then. I'm sure. So I think she was like, why do I have to work so hard? Yeah, do have money. Do have money. Do have to do this. Yeah, it's like typical kid shit.

Exactly. But I also can't imagine like one of my kids describing our relationship is like, I wasn't really close to her. That was like kind of a lot. Like that would be like, oof. I would think so. Like that's a eek. Yeah, that's a knife to the heart.

They're bad right there. Yeah. And also it's like, it's not like he was off on the weekends, like gambling and picking up girls. He was just being a part of it. But like I said, Pam got a job when she was 13. It doesn't sound like she was that happy about it. But it was right when they moved to New Hampshire. She worked part-time at a bakery and also a dairy queen,

which makes me want one of those chocolate dipped clothes. Oh yeah. So if I can go the swirl. Now later, people seem to think that Pam had it a little hard at home and they felt like she grew up too fast but these were like her friends talking. Those friends would point to little things. Like the fact that her room was very tidy,

spik and spanned at all times. And she didn't have posters hanging up from magazines or anything like that. Like you would expect. But it's like, if that's or anything like that, like you would expect. But it's like, if that's how hard it was, like, oh no. Well, that's a thing. It's like, okay, sure. I guess that could be like, okay,

well, that's a different way of having a room as a teenager. Yeah, but I also had some of my best friends that was with their room, was like, and I know their family life and it was perfectly fine. Same here, I literally was that kind of person. Maybe she was just a minimalist. Yeah, that's the thing I'm a minimalist. Always back to TikTok, always.

But either way, even though Pam had been uprooted and moved halfway across the country at a pretty shitty time in her life, and her home life was like, maybe a little rigid. She still maintained her personality. Okay. She was known at school and in public as somebody who was assertive, outspoken, and had a great sense of humor.

She really had an easy time making friends, especially because she moved when she did, like some people might struggle with that, but she did not. And in high school, she went to a high school with over 2,000 students, because the high school that she went to is, it was like in a smaller town, so they take kids from the surrounding towns, and it's one of those kind of high schools where it's like multiple towns in one,

which is never fair when you play them in sports. I was just gonna say, we have one that like, you know, in Massachusetts. Is this in this is a new Hampshire? This is a new Hampshire, so it's not the same thing because we have one I was like is this the one I'm not But we have one in Massachusetts that I used to hate playing in softball because it was just like they they got more pickings Yeah, way more pickings and they always fucking cream dust Yeah, so embarrassing They also had one picture that fucking love to hit people on purpose.

Was that picture me? No, no, but she would always hit me and I would get so pissed. Anyways, enough reminiscing about softball. They went to a high school like that, but she was among one of the most popular students, which is really saying something, I guess, with all those students. Yeah, with all those students, which is really saying something, I guess, with all those students. Yeah, with all those students, you know? Her sophomore year, she became the class president, and she also earned a spot on the cheer team.

All good things. Well, yeah. All some things that are good. But at the same time, she still had what people would call her dark side. Her dark passenger, Aula Dexter. Yes. One of her classmates after they graduated said about her, I think she was an insecure person. I don't think she thought she was better than everyone else,

but she wanted people to think she was. I know a lot of people like that. We all do. Now Pam always wanted to be the center of attention, especially if that attention was coming from guys. And she was known to be super aggressive if she thought somebody was stepping on her toes, no matter what the situation was.

If it took something she thought was hers, you were done for. Okay. Now, you can argue that maybe her possessiveness came from a place of knowing that she worked hard for something, and she wanted to guard that thing that she had worked so hard to achieve. But by all accounts, she never really did work that hard for anything she had. Her father would later say, quote, Pam was the kind of kid who could get good grades and excel without putting in all that effort.

You know, the kind of kid you always hated in high school. Pam would get the A with one quarter of the effort. Damn. Which like is kind of relatable, because I didn't study that much, but I always said pretty already in school. Relatable. I totally get that. But it's also been said that she did what she wanted to do when she wanted to do it,

no matter what the effect was on anybody else. That's not good at all. We don't love that. No. Steven Soicki, I believe is how you say it. He wrote, Teach Me To Kill, which is a great reference on this case. I would definitely read it. He wrote, Pam was to kill, which is a great reference on this case. I would definitely read it. He wrote, Pam was always the student

who would steer the classroom discussion away from whatever the teacher had planned on talking about. Oh, that I fucked that up. I'm gonna start that over. Pam was always the student who would steer the classroom discussion away from whatever the teacher had planned to talk about to what Pam wanted.

She often undermined them to draw attention to herself. Wow. That would annoy the shit out of me if I was the teacher. I would be really pissed. I would not like that at all. He also wrote that as her high school career went on, school officials were catching on to Pam's ways. She was suspected to have rigged the election that won her class president, sophomore year. She rigged an election. Allegedly. Allegedly. Yeah, she did not run again her junior year, but she did rig the election.

Allegedly. Allegedly. A sophomore year. They also think that, they also think, I just said. I mean, they think. They also thought that Pam may have stolen money from the class funds. Like, she was skimming off the top while she was president.

She was a straight up politician. And she was drinking all on school grounds. She was a straight up politician. She really was. She said, I'm ready for the White House. Let's go. Honestly. All the way to the top.

They were like, we suspect that she rigged the election, skimmed off the top, and it was like real boozy while doing so. Yeah, it's like, give that girl a seat in the Senate, for real, honestly. But while the adults around Pam were questioning her behavior and finding her attitude pretty disrespectful, her friends were starting to idolize her. Oh, she's a bad bitch on their eyes. Oh, yeah, bad bitch alert. To them, she was the super cool metal chick who worshipped Van Halen and prioritized always having a good time over everything else.

We're not here for a long time. We're here for a good time, my God. To the name of God. To the name of God. No, according to her senior year book, Pam's greatest life pursuit was, quote, to dance the night away with David Lee Roth and singing a singer of Van Halen, for those that don't know. Wow.

Yeah. What a pursuit. Yeah. An old friend Laura talked to reporters about Pam in 1991, and she told them that Pam was, quote, extremely energetic, very involved and always smiling. Everyone wanted to be close to her. I guess they felt that some of her power would rub off on them. Hmm. So just like those are power thing. Very varying degrees of people, yeah. People's opinions on Pam. But those not infatuated with her started hearing rumors about

her being a little promiscuous. Queue up Nellie's promiscuous. Nellie Fattato, right? Promiscuous? Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, right? It's Nelly Fattato and the guy. Yeah. Am I throwing you off? Didn't think so.

Yeah, well, oh my God. Looking up. Oh, I was gonna say, because everyone's screaming right now and I feel so bad. Everybody might be screaming in a second too, because I also didn't look up this pronunciation by accident. But some classmates called her SEKA or SEKA. It was a reference to an adult film actor, SEKA, known as the Platinum Princess of Porn. Oh yeah, I can, I don't know what that is,

but okay, that's Timberland. Timberland! That's what it was. My goodness. I was like it's not Timberlake. I don't know Timberland. Oh he Timberland was like in every. My love's Timberland. Cool. I almost said music. He was in every cool music of the time. Oh, mate. No, he was, but yeah. Yeah, even Molly, she does. She loves him. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know who Seeker or Seka is. Well, she's the Platinum Princess of form, or she was back then.

Cool. So they called her that because she was a little promiscuous girl. Damn. But outwardly, she actually seemed to embrace the nickname. Other students, they skipped the references, and they simply refer to her as, WAM BAM, thank you Pam.

I'm not joking. I'm not joking. They called her WAM BAM, thank you Pam. Okay. Which just reminds me of Kasha. It just reminds me of the office with Pam Beasley. There you go. And she said instead of saying bam, bam, he says,

Pam, Pam. I like that. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Guys, it's so easy to get caught up in what everybody else needs from you. And never take a moment to think about what you need from yourself. I think especially when you have a corporate job or any kind of job, really, everybody just wants a lot from you. And you're like, I don't have a lot left to give right now.

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Cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way by going to rocketmoney.com slash morbid. That's rocketmoney.com slash morbid. RocketMoney.com slash morbid. No Pam's high school boyfriend, who in my opinion sounds like a great A douchebag. He would later tell the Boston Globe wild about Pam saying he would tell her, he would talk to them about her and he would say, she was a wild, wild girl. We were doing everything your parents tell you not to do. You're so cool. Oh, it got so cool guys. It gets so much worse.

They dated from the beginning of their senior year in September until May and he was apparently the one to break things off one day in the school parking lot, and literally told the Boston Globe, I just got sick of her. That's terrible. That's how I was in high school. Oh man, everybody, watch out for this cool guy! I'm like, I have a feeling that's where you peaked. Oh, put on your shades. The star shines too bright for all of us. I love that. He said to the Boston Globe journalist, like, yeah, I was a nice woman.

I was just a fucking asshole. I was just a dickwad in her school, no, no, no. If I was sick of you, I was sick of you. Yeah, that's it. Like, how old are you now, dude? Okay, my guy. That's stupid. And I do think you peaked there.

But even though Pam also may have seemed to peak in high school and she was popular in Wyndham, she always missed Florida because remember, she's a Miami girl. She left there until she was like 13. And she decided after graduating from Pinkerton High School

that she wanted to head to Florida State University in Gainesville. Okay. Now she enrolled there in 1985 and then she would start there, but then later she transferred to the Tallahassee campus and she was studying media performance. So she tried to keep in touch with her friends from high school, but she was starting to

find that she just didn't have that much in common with them anymore, which happens. Oh yeah. So as those friendships drifted, she actually had no problem making new friends in Florida and actually even in back in New Hampshire when she would come back for breaks. Oh wow. She made new friends over her first break from school. Damn.

And it was through one of her New Hampshire friends, Terry Schnell, that Pam would meet Greg Smart. They had met in passing before, but it was at a New Year's Eve party in 1985 that they would really hit it off. Greg was also from New Hampshire. He was born September 4th, 1965 in London, Barry, New Hampshire. I don't know why I said that, I just wanted to. Not actually London, but like, New Hampshire. Oh, and I said London, Barry, it's London,

dairy, you know, we're all here. We're all here. His parents were Bill and Judy Smart. Now Greg was like a super active kid from a really early age. He had two brothers, Dean and Rick. And the smart family loved to take vacations together. They were always in attendance at each boys, little league games, and they were genuinely just a very close family unit. Adorable family.

Yeah, they really were. If you see pictures of all of them, I'm like, oh my god, I love you guys. I love you guys. A adorable family. Yeah, they really were. If you see pictures of all of them, I'm like, oh my god, I love you guys. I love you guys. I love you guys. Now Judy sparked described her son as a late bloomer. And she said, while other kids around him competed for spots on teams and clubs,

Greg was pretty shy and seemed happy just blending into a crowd. Oh, he was somewhat reclusive too. And even into his high school years, just kind of blending into the crowd was his thing. Yeah, I just want to be there. Yeah, and he did just well enough in school to get by. But after high school, he decided to skip college and go right to work and he started working for a company called Consolidated Utility Equipment Services. That sounds awesome. He assembled the heavy equipment truck booms.

Damn, which reminded me of your youngest because yep the heavy equipment truck booms. Damn, which reminded me of your youngest, because they love truck booms. I sure do. And construction equipment. But around that time, he met Terry Schnell, who would later introduce him to I. Yeah. They actually got to be like super duper close friends,

and people were speculating a town at that point on their closeness. They were like, are you sure you guys are just friends? Terry and him are Pam and him. Terry and him. Okay. But they really were just put on a close. They were like, yeah, we're just friends.

We're just friends. We're just friends. Terry said Greg was basically a stud. He didn't want a girlfriend. He just wanted to have some fun. He's just here for a good time. He's just here for a good time. And like Pam, Greg was a big fan of heavy metal,

which I don't really know if this is heavy metal, Motley crew in Van Halen. Halen? Van Halen. That was just a spirit, I don't know how to say that. Yeah, I mean, at the time for sure, Motley crew was like, Motley crew.

It was like heavy metal. Yeah, okay. Yeah. All right, cool. So heavy metal. But so they both love that. But more importantly, as far as Pam was concerned, Greg, sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you.

I think it's like hair, you know. I think that would be like hair metal. Oh my god. Okay. Yeah. I said that later in the thing because that's what Dave said. He was like, it's hair metal. It's hair metal, for sure. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

Because they have hair. And they like walked it around while they metal. And like, I think Motley crew and all them were like, like very pretty. Yeah. And I think that's what qualifies them as like hair metal. OK. Like, head-be-metal.

Ah, I see. I see. Yeah. So yeah. I'm actually glad you interrupted to talk about hair. I'm glad. Because as far as Pam was concerned, Greg fit the image she had in her head of the perfect guy.

He loved to party. He didn't seem all too concerned with building a respectable career. And his long rocker hair. So I'm looking for her. His long rocker hair, quote, reminded her of the rock star, John Bon Jovi. Oh my God, the topical references here are really great.

Are they wild? So of the time. Also, if you look up a picture of Greg when he was younger, he had beautiful hair. Oh, sure. He reminds me more of the adorable little kid and stranger things with the super curly hair. Oh my God, Dustin.

Yeah, because he has curly hair. Yeah. Now, even though Greg was completely uninterested in monogamy at first, he and Pam did hit it off, and they ended up going out with each other a few times over Pam's winter break that year. They go sledding, they go to the movies, they were just getting to know each other. Now, Greg enjoyed Pam's company and the fact that she was always down to party, but he still

wasn't interested in having a girlfriend and especially not one that lived thousands of miles away in Florida. So because of that, he was pretty relieved when Pam went back to school after break, but Pam, on the other hand, returned to school desperately in love with Greg. Oh, damn. Like, fell in love with him. That went to her break. Greg is adorable.

He is. I just looked at it. I mean, Greg is a cutie-putudi. He is super cute. I'm going to warn you now that they are, there are issues in their relationship, that stem from both sides. Okay, that's good to know.

So don't like worry. I just get, I'm not gonna root for anybody here. Yeah, it's like I know, it's all bad. But like I get why they were both like into each other. Totally. I'm gonna be getting, like totally get that. Totally agree. Yeah, hair.

Hair. So their relationship actually started slowly, like we know. And somewhat uncomplicated. They would talk on the phone after Pam went back to school and they'd write letters to each other. And by Valentine's Day, Pam upped the ante by using her cheap father's connections.

I'm like, you're gonna call him cheap and then you're gonna use his connections. She used his connections at Delta to travel to New Hampshire at no cost. Oh, he's so cheap. I'm like, it sounds like you're a little cheap, Pam. Seriously. Now she would do that plenty more times through the long distance phase.

And by spring break of 1986 though, Greg still wasn't ready to commit to Pam quite yet. Actually, he was still going on dates with another girl. Pam would later tell reporters, quote, he basically said that he didn't want to break up with her and that he didn't want to break up with me. He wanted to go out with both of us. Okay. So I said, well, it's either her or me.

And he said, okay, I'll see you later. Wow. Oh, damn. Pam was pissed because she went into the situation fully thinking like, oh, I always get what I want. So this ultimatum, he's going to be like, oh my gosh, how could I lose Pam? Yeah, but he was like, okay, you're not going to ultimatum me. And she gave me a choice.

She was not expecting Greg to give up so easily. So she caved as soon as he rejected her ultimatum and they kept on dating, while he was dating this other girl. It sounded like they were like in the talking phase. I guess this is what we would say. It's super messy. It's also very 80s. Yeah.

With the hair. With the hair. So over time though, Greg did decide that he wanted to be with Pam and Pam only. He was ready for monogamy at some point. Yeah. And in the fall of 1986, they had become completely exclusive. OK.

Love it. They were still doing long distance, but Pam was able to pull her Delta Airlines strings when she needed to, and Greg would make the trips when he had the money and could get time off from work. Okay. By 1987, though, it was getting harder and harder to maintain the distance. So Greg decided he was going to move out to Tallahassee and be with Pam. Damn.

Crazy. Pam was able to be her complete self in Tallahassee since she wasn't living under her parents' roof anymore. She could love her medal as much as she wanted to, and this is where I said, or hair bands if we're being honest. We are being honest. And she could also pursue the career

that she wanted to in the entertainment industry. She landed a position through her program at school to be a news intern for WCTV, which at the time and possibly now is an affiliate of CBS. And possibly now. I'm like, I don't really know who's to say. Who's to say? No, me.

Whoa, I just dropped pens. Sorry, I'm too many for there. Now, she also started working as a promotions director for the College Radio Station, which was actually a position she made for herself. They didn't have any open positions, and she was like, that's fine, I'll make one. Yeah, I mean, if you want it, you might as well make up a position that fits.

I kind of love that. I will say I do love that. Now, eventually that role led to her getting a new position as a DJ on the heavy metal show, Metal Madness. This is really 80s. I love it. It's a little too much more, 80s because Pam referred to herself

as she was DJing as the maiden of metal. Oh hell yeah. And she spent one night a week playing all her favorite records from bands like Van Halen. Van Halen, you keep saying Van Halen. Van Halen, it's, Haaland.

I don't, it's a spirit because I know that, I know how to say it. I think it's just a weird accent that I have. This is going to be a loving moment. Oh, but I know this one. Van Halen. Van Halen. Van Halen. She also loved Aerosmith and Queen's Reich.

Queen's Reach. Reich, I think it is. Queen's Reich. She liked that Queen band, but not a Reich. Queen. I think it's Reich. Queen's Reich. Queen liked that queen band, but not a rake. Queen. I think it's rake. Queens rake. I don't know if somebody will tell us. Now, with Greg moving to Florida, it seemed like Pam's life and the vision she'd crafted

for her future were finally coming into focus. Once he arrived in Florida, Greg moved into his own apartment. Or, yeah. He didn't move in with Pam straight away. And his mother said it appeared to be, quote, from a refurbished motel complex. Adorable. Yeah.

His parents bought him the essentials. They got his furniture in some decor. And Pam kept living in her dorm. According to his mother, Judy Greg, never really liked Florida though. He just stayed because of Pam. Which is really sweet. Lerv.

But he missed New England a lot and he was just trying to get acclimated by going out with Pam and her friends and eventually he made his own friends. Now, his family back home was absolutely shocked that he had made a move to Florida because they knew him mostly as this like non-monogamous recluse

back in New Hampshire. I love it. We're like, wait, what? Like what's happening right now? You moved to Florida to be an amount of monogamous Hampshire. I love it. We're like, wait, what? Like, what's happening right now? You moved to Florida to be an monogamous relationship. That's crazy. And they were even more shocked when he and Pam ended up getting an apartment together

just after a few months of him being there. Shacking up. Shacking up, not completely by themselves because they worked with one, or they lived with one of Pam's coworkers. The situation was ideal for Pam, but she couldn't tell her parents about Greg living with her. They had expectations that she was out there to study, work hard, and get a good job, not be distracted by a boy. No. And they liked Greg, but they definitely

wouldn't approve of Pam living with him. A friend of Pam's from college would later tell author Steven Swickey, quote, every time her parents came down, Greg would move all his stuff out and go live with another kid until they left. Like, what are you kidding me? Like, what a hassle. That's intense. You guys should just tell them. You should tell them. You should tell them a lot. It's a lot to have to move out of your place of living. Every time your parents come, I'd be pissed. Move into a new dwelling every time they visit. Hey, can I live with you for a minute? For a minute. For a minute.

Now, in January of 1988, Pam got home from work one day in a super shady mood. She just had a shit day. She later recalled, I don't know what happened, but I was totally aggravated. I had had the worst day and I was crying and complaining about something. So Greg was consoling her.

And he was like, you know what? I think you should take a shower. That always makes you feel better. I agree. If you're pissed off, go take a shower. And at first she didn't want to, but he was like, just take a fucking shower pan. Like, you'll feel better.

And she was like, okay, fine. And when she got out, she reached for her powder puff. And when she lifted it, she saw that Greg had left her a diamond ring that she had told him she liked while they had gone ring shopping just casually a few weeks before. That's cute. She said she opened it up and yelled, Oh my God!

I'm on on to say, I started crying and he wasn't even saying, Well, you marry me. So I started saying, Get down on your knee. And finally, I said, Yes, I'll marry you. Even though he never really asked me. Oh, no. So I don't know if that was a proposal or if he was just like leaving a present. Here's this diamond ring present, but also you can't do that. Don't get a girl a diamond ring that you're living with.

If it's not the ring, ring. Yeah. So now they were engaged. Okay. Whether he knew that they were going to be or not, they weren't. And since he'd gotten to Florida, Greg was having a hard time finding work. And he was getting by landscaping and taking on other small jobs here and there. But the engagement really started to seem to get him thinking more seriously about the

future. Yeah. And according to my guy, Steven Sawicki. My guy. Greg started to understand that the nice home and boat and other possessions his parents had acquired would not come easily at 335 an hour. Yeah, so he started thinking realistically about joining his dad and his dad worked in the insurance business. Okay. So while Pam worked hard to finish out her last year at Florida State, Greg started studying for and actually eventually passed the exam to sell insurance in Florida.

Now the insurance industry was definitely not what Greg had envisioned for himself, but he had seen his dad make up comfortable and stable life for his family, and he wanted the same opportunity. Now Pam knew that the changes that Greg was making were for a better future for the two of them, but there were some changes that came

as a total surprise to her, and that maybe she wasn't super happy about. One day, for instance, after Greg passed the real estate exam and he got an interview with MetLife, which is actually the company that his dad worked for. He surprised Pam while she was out for coffee with her friends. He had gotten a haircut to look more professional because he couldn't be selling real estate

or we can be showing insurance with like crazy hair But like a metalhead right so he showed up and sat down next to her and she didn't even know it was him at first But it didn't really seem like this change was welcome for hair loving Pam. Yeah Now bigger changes came a few months later when he surprised Pam again But I think this is a good surprise because he surprised her with a shitsoo puppy. Awwww. As a graduation present. I love that.

They'd been going back and forth deciding on whether or not to get a dog over the last couple of months, but they ultimately decided against it because they thought it would take a strain on their budget. But Greg saved up the money from his landscaping job so that he could buy the dog and he figured that his new job at MetLife and whatever work Pam was gonna be able to find now that she had graduated, they would be able to afford the dog

and she'd be happy about it. That's so sweet. Now, she actually wanted a Yorkshire Terrier at first. Like, that's what she really wanted. So I think maybe she made that comment. So she wasn't super excited about the idea of a shitsuit. But then she saw the little baby dog and she was happy. I was gonna say, it's a baby dog.

That's just a baby dog. That's just my baby dog. That's just my baby dog. I would take any baby dog. So she was happy, wasn't she? Okay. So I'm like, girl, she would later say that her heart melted and she immediately declared that it was the best present

she had ever gotten. Of course it is. It's a baby dog. It's a baby dog. And they named the baby dog, Helen. Helen. Helen. Van Halen. Oh my God.

I can't say it. I know how to say it. I don't think she knows how to say it. No, everyone get out of here. I mean, it's Van Halen. Yeah. But I can't say it. If you keep saying Helen.

I know. Well, because it looks like Helen when you read it. Oh, okay. They named the dog Halen. Yeah, okay. They was named after dog Halen. Yeah, okay. They was named after their favorite band. Cute. And now they had a wedding on the horizon.

So they had a puppy. They had a, they were going to have wedding. Greg's got this new job. Things seem to be falling into place. Of course. But there were also some red flags on both sides. You don't say. Here I am to tell you.

Back in New Hampshire, Greg had been known like we said as a carefree loner. And after high school though, he developed a strong personality and now just like Pam, he liked to be the one in control of things. But so did Pam. So two strong personalities in the house was starting to lead to more arguments. I wonder what their signs are. He's a Virgo. Oh, she was born in August 16th. I think that would make her a fucking... Why can't I think of this? Is it Liam?

Liam. You're right, right? Okay, so a Leo and a Virgo. Yay! Do you know, does that check, like those feel like two strong personalities, right? I know Virgo's are, I love with one. Ah, yeah.

I created one, I think. Those are two very strong personalities and people that want to be in control of things, I don't think. That makes sense. You know what I'm saying? Hold on, no, I gotta find my best. I had to bring it back to your area of expertise. I'm happy you did, although, I guess it's not my expertise area anymore.

No, you got it. I got it. You got it. I believe did you and you got it. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. So yeah, Avery, you can pick it up right here. Yeah.

So, yes, two strong personalities, Avergo and Aliyo. Maybe it works for you, but I don't think it was bound to work for Greg and Pam. She was well-sacred with them. And I'm going to tell you about a shitty story that happened. One night while they were still in Florida, Greg and Pam decided to go out to a bar with some friends. Now, Greg and his friends sounded like they were being a couple of jerks. They were making gross comments about the waitress.

Right in front of Pam. Oh, fuck them up. Yeah, fuck them up. Yeah. So eventually, Pam had enough of the stream of inappropriate comments and she started arguing with Greg about it. She's like, what the fuck is your problem? Yeah. Now, the argument escalated to the point where Greg spit a mouth full of beer and all in Pam. Oh, that's not okay. And he had to be forcefully removed

from the bar. Oh, that would be the end for me. No, it also be the end for me. It would also be the end for me. Throughout all that, throughout that fight and all the ones to follow, Pam and Greg for some reason or another stayed committed to each other. Okay. Like they said, this is what we want. You do you.

Now, and since Pam had graduated at this point, there wasn't any reason to stay in Florida anymore. So they decided that they were gonna move back to New Hampshire. Greg figured he could work with his well-respected and well-connected dad, and Pam now had a degree so she could find a job out there. Now, Pam definitely wasn't against moving back to home to New Hampshire after graduation because the cost of living was cheaper, and the rural nature of the state made it very safe, I would say, especially in comparison to Florida.

But at the same time, she also always kind of considered herself a Florida girl. She liked the warmer climate, she liked the things you can do out there, and she liked New Hampshire, but she struggled with the harsh New England winter. That wasn't for her. Yeah. So it wasn't the easiest transition moving back. Greg, on the other hand, he had struggled like I was saying from the moment he arrived in Florida, She was that wasn't for her. Yeah. So it wasn't the easiest transition moving back Greg on the other hand. He had struggled like I was saying from the moment he arrived in Florida

So he was super happy to be back in New England He loved the colder climate. He loved doing winter sports And he was happy to be back with his family because like I said they were super close family Yeah, it was hard to say super connected to them while living so far away And he was happy to be back. He was feeling like himself again. He was settling into a new routine. It was great. He actually got back to New Hampshire a few weeks before Pam did.

She stayed back in Florida to finish the last of her responsibilities at school. But when she did make her way back to New Hampshire, like I was saying, the decision was not an easy one to make. She'd spent four years trying to find career options out in Florida and trying out different roles in the entertainment industry. But at the same time, she knew very well that the actual paying jobs in the industry were few and far between. And they usually required a person to move around a lot if they wanted to advance professionally.

And New Hampshire, though at the same time, was not the state that you would move to for a high profile career and television journalism. No. And that's what she wanted. And moving back meant that she'd have to sacrifice that for a life of stability. Her best friend at the time, Sonya Simon, remembered that Pam was really torn about this. She said, I remember her saying, am I making a mistake? Should I be going and following my dream? This is like everything she ever wanted and all of a sudden she was faced with choosing Greg and New Hampshire over being an actual reporter. Okay, you know? Yeah. But she did end up moving back to New Hampshire. She made the choice. All right. Now, there was one place she could apply to help advance her career in professional journalism over in New Hampshire.

It was the Manchester ABC affiliate WMUR. She applied, and they rejected her. Oh, so that was kind of that's a tough it. So since there weren't a lot of other options, she went to work at a temp agency. And then she landed a job as the new media center director with the school administrative unit 21. The job was in Hampton, which was about 40 minutes from where she was living, and at the time she had to move back with her parents.

So Greg was living at his parents, and she was living at her parents. Okay. Now, the job was a straightforward admin position. She'd have to maintain and distribute the audio and video equipment to the six schools within her district, but there was also the potential to move up the ladder and become more involved. And also video production was still new and exciting at this point. And so the school board really hoped that the new media center would engage parents and students and lead to some positive press for the

district. And Pam was the kind of young energetic person they were looking for, so everybody collectively was pretty excited about this. For Pam, the job felt like an ideal alternative to chasing her dreams of journalistic stardom. Like she wasn't going to be a stock kid, but she could be star adjacent. And there you go, perfect way of saying it. And the pay was really good at that point in time. She was going to be making $22,500 a year.

Now the salary and benefits were great for somebody just out of college and the work made it so that she was still connected to media. So she was still doing what she liked to do. And she also got her own office in the basement of Winnecunnet High School, where she was pretty much left to do as she pleased without any superior working in the office with her. Yeah. And she even got her own secretary. Whoa. So she put a full like big shop. Shit. Now, like I was saying earlier, when they moved back for the summer and fall of 88,

Greg and Pam were living separately with their parents until they could find a place of their own. But they both had really good jobs, so it didn't take long for them to find a place to move into. In January of 89, they moved into a condo together on Misty Morning Drive. Oh, and Deary, New Hampshire. Misty Morning Drive. Isn't that just pretty? I love that.

Misty Morning Drive. Isn't this just waking up in. Like, Misty Morning Drive. It's just waking up in your house on Misty Morning Drive. Oh, I love a Misty Morning. Doesn't Misty Morning Drive sound like a soap opera? No, that was saying it. It does, yeah. It definitely does.

I like it. Yeah. And their new place was just a five minute walk from Greg's parents who also lived in a condo in the same complex. Adorable. Now, the wedding was getting closer, so they were in full blown prep mode.

Their plan was to get married in the Catholic church, so at the time, they were going through the counseling sessions that you have to go through if you wanna get married in the church. Yeah. And while they were going through that period, Pam actually got a call from somebody at WCTV, which was the Tallahassee affiliate where she interned. And they wanted to know, as she's planning her wedding

and going through all of this, they said, are you interested in an on-air position with our station? Everything she had ever wanted. It was the call that the old Pam was waiting for. But this Pam was determined to commit to her married life. So she declined. Wow. Yeah, that's shocking. I know. Debra Keeney, who had been Pam and Greg's roommate back in Florida, said of this time,

she always wanted to be a broadcaster, and she loved the spotlight. But she turned it down in order to stay with Greg. It was because she loved Greg so much, and that was the truth. Damn. It's wild to think that had she accepted that job. I would never be sitting here telling you this story.

That's really wild to think about. Like, it's so crazy how one decision can alter an entire course of events. That's wild. Had she said yes to that? Who knows what would have happened? I know, but she didn't. The world would be a different place. It would, technically.

Yeah, I could have. You know, we'd feel a little bit of it. Yeah. So the wedding finally came after over a year of planning. And on May 7th, 1989, and I said this in your thing, I wrote, which is weird, because as I'm writing this, that is tomorrow. Ooh. Because remember, something happened in your story that was on May 7th, and I was so quick me to. Yep.

So that's when they got married. Oh, it's so weird. And Pam and Greg had a traditional ceremony at Sacred Heart Church and Lowell, Massachusetts. Oh, damn. And the reception was held in nearby Pellum New Hampshire. They had more than 250 guests, which stresses me the fuck out, because as I'm planning my wedding,

I'm like, oh my God, no. Wait, how many? Two more than 250. That's a big ass wedding. Damn. Like, I have 150 and I'm stressed. I don't know 250 people. Nor do I.

That's a thing. But I think it's one of those things where your parents start to ask you to invite people. I'm like, lucky is there's a win in my friends. Yeah, I'm in a lucky position where nobody's asking us to do that and I'm happy about it. It's just cool with me. Yeah, cool with me.

And their wedding song was honestly by the Christian Heavy Metal Band. It's either Striper, it's probably Striper because it's definitely not Striper. Are you sure? Yeah, there are Christian Heavy Metal Band. Are you sure? Yes. So I listened and I'm not stripper. Are you sure? Yeah, there are Christian heavy metal band. Are you sure? Yes.

So I listened and I'm not gonna lie. It does pop off in the chorus. It pops off? It pops off in the chorus. Oh, shit. I recommend it for sure. Damn. I like listening to it.

Damn. Now, once the wedding was over, they decided to have their stay in Bermuda, their honeymoon stay in Bermuda, which I also tend out of ten recommend. No stories from Bermuda, their honeymoon stay in Bermuda, which I also tend out of ten recommend. No stories from Bermuda that I could find, but pretty much as soon as they got back from their honeymoon, the cracks were starting to show in Pam and Greg's marriage, which had

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Mommy Doom stays motives, and what drove Caitlin Armstrong to murder? I'll also bring on expert guests who add even more insight into these criminal minds. I promise you won't regret adding these 10 minutes to your morning routine. Hey, Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music exclusive podcast, Killer Psychie Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. Judy Smart, remember that's Greg's mother. We're called one afternoon, this is gonna piss you off because like I said, they both have faults. Judy was just like sitting at Pam and Greg's place one day after the wedding and Pam showed her a list

that she had written down with the names of people who had given them money for the wedding next to the amount that they'd given, which is normal like you got to do thank you cards. Yeah. But Pam went through the list with Judy and pointed out every single member of Greg's family who had given them a quote unquote,

small amount of money as a gift. Oh my God. Can you imagine sitting with your mother-in-law and being like, John's uncle gave this much. What? And this guy gave this much. I mean, my God. Wow.

My mother-in-law would smack me and should smack me. My mother-in-law would just laugh. Yeah, my mother-in-law would not smack and should smack me. My mother-in-law would just laugh. Yeah, my mother-in-law would not smack me, but I would tell her to. My mother-in-law would punch me in the face. You know I'm just kidding. Like if I was somebody's mother-in-law, I'd be like, you talking shit on my family.

I would just be like, oh, who do you think you are? Like a cannon actually. Who do you think you are? Who are you? But it wasn't actually really the first time that Judy had seen Pam act this entitled. Apparently right before their wedding, Pam's parents called Greg's parents

and said that they were concerned that Greg wouldn't be able to quote, give their daughter the things in life that she deserved. Wow. Basically they were like, he didn't go to college, he likes to party, and he only just got a good job. So like, what do you think about this?

Like, is he good enough for our kid? Wow. And Judy said of the whole thing, we had to sell Greg to the Woehawses. Like he was a piece of merchandise. Like, I'd be pissed. What is happening? Like, I don't think you guys were meant to get this.

I was just gonna say, this is a very strange way to begin your lives together. I can imagine, Mom, Papa calling Drew's parents, I mean, like, I don't know. Like, do you think he's good enough for us? Like, you know what, you should always be closing and I'm not sold on this guy yet.

Like, what? So, let's go. What? Give me a PowerPoint presentation on why I should invest in this guy. You have to literally, like, think that thought, walk to the phone, dial the number, wait to connect to, like there are so many stops along the way where you could have stopped yourself. Yeah, what you doing? What you do? What you do?

Which do it over there, guys. I don't like it. Now, at this point, to a lot of their friends, Pam and Greg did not seem like they fit together anymore. No. No. They were fighting constantly, and it was starting to seem to everybody, to everyone else, like they enjoyed pushing each other's buttons. They also both really seemed to like to get attention from other men and women, which didn't go too well when it came to Pam's jealous nature, especially when it came to the things that she considered hers and only hers. And finally, their goals and ambitions weren't the same.

Greg, since he had cut his hair, he'd started on a more narrow path in the industry, and he seemed at this point to be embracing kind of like a simple, easy-going lifestyle. He was happy to stay in the town that he grew up in. He'd go to a party or two. He was just living. Like a very normal chill lifestyle. Just living.

But Pam wanted more. She wanted that big career. She wanted to acquire. She wanted to climb her way up the social ladder. They had very different paths in life. But then at the same time, while it had its rough points, their marriage wasn't quite as strained as you might think looking from the outside. Greg and Pam, they still enjoyed But then at the same time, while it had its rough points, their marriage wasn't quite as strained

as you might think looking from the outside. Greg and Pam, they still enjoyed spending time together, I guess. They were at the very least a good example of opposites attract. Some people said. OK. It seems like everybody had very varying opinions

on the two of them. Thank you. Because my next thing was going to be like, all right. Like I'm hearing a lot of different outlooks on what they are or what they aren't. Yeah, it's even like Pam growing up though, like in the beginning of the year. Yeah.

Some people thought she was fucking awesome. Other people were like, she was dipping in the school fun. And she's conniving. She's conniving, like nobody is in the middle of any of these. I feel like that was kind of, it seems like that, some people just like that. Like they like being in the middle, where like nobody can pinpoint them.

You know what I mean? Like they know who they are, but nobody else does. Yeah, and it's, they only think like one extremer the other. Yeah, and they're like a chameleon who can just slide on either side and make sense. Kind of thing.

And I kind of think that like their closest friends were like, yeah, I don't think you guys are working anymore. That's what it sounds like. And then maybe the friends that they weren't super close with, the people looking from the outside were like, no, I think they're a great couple. I know, it's good. You know, like whatever.

Yeah. They said Pam was the one who tended to dominate and control. And Greg took what his friends considered a, let's go. No problem. Whatever approach to life. If Greg wasn't irritated with Pam all the time, though, his friends and family absolutely were. Today, it seemed to find Pam overbearing, controlling,

and they could tell that she felt threatened by Greg's close relationships, which that's not good. Yeah, that's always a red flag. Greg had a lot of close friends and making friends was easy for him. But now in this part of her life, Pam was struggling to make new friends, which was new for her,

because she used to have an easy time, but now she's not. And when she did make friends, they were according to my guy, Steven Swickey, often younger than she was, less educated, and tended to admire Pam and her forceful personality. Okay.

So, I feel like a lot of people know somebody like this that likes to be friends with younger people in the sense of so that they look up to them and admire them. 100%. Because they're actually insecure. Exactly. And can't be friends with people their own age because people their own age will call them on their shit. Yeah, like people their own age will be like,

you're really immature. Exactly. And like, you're not, you're not being rational, you're not being like an actual adult about anything, but people younger than them are like, why are you so cool and carefree? And you've got like, you know, anxiety, anxiety, anxiety.

Exactly. Now, so depending on who you ask, a Kreg and Pam's marriage might have seemed like somewhat stable in the first few months that they were married, but that's also most likely because they hadn't gone through that much as a couple. Yeah. I mean, they just got married. They weren't struggling with money. They still had that excitement of being newlyweds. They had that whole thing.

Yeah. And they also had a house full of things that people had bought for their wedding and a bank account filled with money that they'd also been gifted. So they were like, live it. They were good. And Greg had done really well during his first year of selling insurance.

He actually did so well that he won Rookie of the Year award. Oh damn. But because of the rough points that I've already told you about, it wasn't long before the magic started to wear off, and old habits were starting to return. Greg, or, no, excuse me, Pam, would push Greg's buttons to get his attention.

He would spit beer in her face and center out of the room pissed off. It was like a vicious cycle. Yeah. And one night things got even worse. It was about seven months after the wedding and Greg went out to Boston for a night with his friends. Oh damn. He wasn't supposed to be gone super late. It was just supposed to be like a night hanging out with your friends. But he didn't

come home until the next morning. Uh oh. He and Pam obviously got into a huge fight when he finally did get home. And they spent that entire full day fighting. And the next day, Greg woke up to a note from Pam that said, you can't find me, I'm not at my mother's, I'll be somewhere else, don't even try to find me. Ooh, yeah, yikes. Now, somehow they got over that. Okay. After a few days, but things only continued

to slowly get worse. Judy noticed his mom that they weren't spending a lot of time together, and Greg seemed to be spending more and more time by himself with his friends anywhere he could away from Pam. On the weekends, he'd go out with his friends, and if he wasn't with his friends, he'd just go for drives around town in his truck. He just didn't want to be with his new wife. Marriage, you know? And adding more fuel to the fire was that Greg wanted to start having kids and Pam didn't want kids. Yeah, I don't know if this is the place

you want to bring kids into, my gosh. Numerous Uno, no, you guys don't want to bring kids into this because it's not gonna fix it. No. And then also, like, that's a conversation you have to have before getting married. Yeah. Like you can't wait until later and be like, oh, wait, you don't want kids. Like that sucks. If you want kids, you need to be with somebody that wants kids.

If you're planning to lock yourself to someone for life, you got to know what's going on here, where your ideals, what are your principles, what are your beliefs? How do you want, do you want kids? How do you want to raise kids? Because certain things are deal-breakers. Like for me, I would never be with somebody that didn't want kids. And a lot of people, that's a deal-breaker. Either way.

And vice versa. Like if you don't want kids, you don't want kids. Yeah, and you're not gonna be with someone who is dead set on having kids. Which is why you gotta talk about that before. Oh, yeah. So Greg wanted them, Pam did not. Greg also wanted to put a down payment on a house.

Pam didn't want to move. Pam and Greg were drifting apart and they hadn't even been married for a year yet. Ooh. So while Pam's personal life was taking hit after hit, after hit after hit, her professional life was actually going really well. She was doing great at work and she decided in the fall of 1989

that she wanted to get more involved with something called Project Self-esteem. It was the High School's Drug and Alcohol Awareness program, like essentially, Dare, the witch we have over here. And it was going to be mandatory for all incoming freshmen. It was mostly run by students, but it needed to be overseen by an adult staff member and Pam volunteered to be that staff member. Okay.

The school agreed. And it was via Project Self-esteem that Pam would meet a boy named Billy Fitt Flynn and his group of friends. Uh-oh, I know that name. You sure do. Now, I'd probably say it later, but it's important to stress stress she's not a teacher.

She worked at the school. As an administrator. Because she is always the teacher. Everybody always says she's a teacher. She wasn't. It doesn't make it any better or any worse. I was not making it better, but it's annoying that it's always written that way because it's not the truth. Because there are plenty of teachers who have done this kind of thing. We could cover like a million in five pieces like this.

Unfortunately, this is slightly different. Slightly different. Just as bad, but slightly different. Exactly. So let's talk about Billy Flynn. Let's talk about him. Let's do it. Billy Flynn's family had moved to Seabork New Hampshire from California.

California. California man. And they moved in 1987 when Billy was 12 years old. So interestingly enough, he and Pam's story kind of starts the same, which is weird when you think about it. Now the move was tough for Billy because it was a huge culture shock. Seabrook wasn't necessarily the nicest area at the time.

When Pam started her job actually, Seabrook had the highest unemployment rate in the state of New Hampshire, and it was mostly filled with like just shops, like tattoo shops, fireworks stores. There was a lot of porn stores, I guess, along Route 1. And the surrounding towns were filled with people from mass and beyond mass, and those towns had kind of been transformed throughout the years, while Seabrook was sort of just frozen in time. Yeah. Now, usually the people living there

had strong, a strong New Hampshire accent, which I don't know what a New Hampshire accent is. I would, I know it when I hear it, but you couldn't do it. But I don't think I could recreate it. I don't know if I know it to be honest with you. It's slight. It's slight. But you, like, you don't know if I know it to be honest with you. It's like you. It's slight.

Yeah. You don't know the characteristics. No. I was going to say I could try to look up an example of it, but it's one of those things I just, when I hear someone, I'm like, you're from New Hampshire. Oh, okay. I've never noticed it. I think I don't notice those things sometimes.

You just have so many souls. I probably have a New Hampshire soul. That's not an accent. That's my voice. That's just me. It's just who I am. Yeah. But apparently the people living in Seabrook of to other people seem to have a strong New Hampshire accent and they also use specific slang words that other people weren't using. Friend of the pod and research assistant of the pod Dave is pretty familiar with that area and he actually let us in on some of the slang. Oh, you ready? A quick lesson if you're down.

From Dave. Stove you up means you're gonna fight someone. Oh, damn. I'm gonna stove you up. What? Ikebub means all right or yes. Ikebub? Ikebub, but according to Dave,

it's more of an exclamation. Ikebub. Ikebub. Like let's go, it's more of an exclamation. Ikebub. Ikebub. Ikebub. Like let's go. Hell yeah, let's do it. And then there is what Dave calls the classic ayya. Ayya.

Ayya. Which just means yes. So it's like ayya. Ayya. Ayya. I'd love to do that. How are you going there? Ayya.

I guess that's what it is. So that means yes. All right. Thank you for joining us, Class dismissed back to the case. Thank you, Dave. Thank you, Davi. Now, unfortunately, residents of Seabrook and just the T.C. Brook town in general were the butt of a lot of jokes, which makes me sad,

because I also came from a town that was the butt of a lot of jokes. Yeah. That's true. The jokes were especially abundant in high school. And the Seabrook kids were usually called Brookers. Brookers.

Brookers. Now Billy Flynn was known at the time as a quintessential broker. He loved heavy metal. Dan and an ear and an ear. I liked that. And he fell in with a crowd from C-brook that didn't really do much else,

but listen, heavy metal and vibe. Yeah. That was their shit. Yeah, man. That's what they did. Rock, oh. Yeah, just one year after moving to New Hampshire from California, this is fucking terrible and tragic. Oh. His father was killed in a car accident. Oh. So it was 13 years old. Oh, jeez. So now he had to lean even harder on these brand new friends. And his mother had to get a second job working as a maid so that she could support their family. She was now the sole provider of a family of four.

While grieving. While grieving. Cool. So Billy could usually be found most afternoons just killing time with his friends, Pete Randall, and Vance JR, last time, I believe is how you say it. They would work on junk cars and JR's friend yard. Okay. Now JR's house was kind of a home base for billionaires friends.

It was overcrowded, especially when another friend Ralph Welch went to stay with JR's family after he was kicked out of his own house. Oh. So it was overcrowded for them, but it was also like home. I was going to say it's like a cozy overcrowded. Exactly. Now outside of the house, that group of teens didn't really have the best reputation in town.

They were known to shop lift, they were known to break into cars and steal things. Like, sticky fingers. Sticky fingers, McGee's. They would steal like small shit around the car or they would steal radios, which is a dick move. Yeah, that is a dick move, let me tell ya. Yeah, didn't your radio get stolen?

Yeah, I did. Yeah, and Toby the proby? Yeah, and Debbie's radio, I don't know if her radio got stolen, but I know her entire book of CDs got stolen. And there was a lot of like burned CDs, like mixed CDs, to this day, we are sad about it. If you're listening and you did that, go fuck yourself. Fuck you, and I hope lime wire gave your computer a virus.

I hope you got a virus. I hope the feds came to your house because of my weird like how dare you. Yeah, that's fucked up. Those thick books. Who steals a book of CDs? Dicks. Like that's not you didn't even make that. No.

Fuck that wasn't your hard work. That wasn't yours. No. But yeah, they like to do that. They like to steal things from the car like CD books and videos. That's pretty. And sometimes, if they were lucky enough to find a car that still had the keys in it, they would take that car for a joy ride and

then dump it across town from where they found it. So you would wake up in the morning and you'd say, holy shit, my car is gone. But at school, they were a little more little more well behaved and their grades were like, all right. But none of them were interested in extra curriculars until Billy J.R. and their friend Cecilia Pierce were asked to be among the students that would facilitate project self-esteem. Ooh. And for one reason or another they all agreed. It's very strange because I can't picture this group of friends being like, yeah, I'll work with Project Self-Asteed.

Yeah, that's a little strange to me. But they did. I think they were probably pressured into it. Probably. One day that was... What'd you say? They were probably threatened. Absolutely. Now, one day that fall, they all got together for their first meeting.

And it was there that the guidance counselor introduced them to their staff supervisor, media center director, Miss Pamela Smart. Pamela. So to the teens on the room, Pam seemed pretty cool. She was young. She was pretty. She treated them like they were normal. She never made them feel like a waste of time, like some of the other adults in their life did. But Billy, Billy liked her for a totally different reason. He thought she was smoke and hot. He was immediately feeling the, the, the, the badom, badom, badom. Badom for her.

And he turned to his friend J.R. and whispered, I'm in love. Wow. Damn, I'm like, you've done her for one minute. That's a lot. She could have terrible views on life. That's true. So Pam, even though she was an adult,

and obviously in a position of power and authority, she was 22 years old. She was a lot closer and age to the students than pretty much any other staff at the school. And she also wasn't one of their teachers. Like you usually hear she was. She was an administrator for the school district. So to them, she felt more like a cool older friend versus what she really was. Yeah. And authority figure. But Billy, right away, did whatever he could do to be in Pam's company.

To him, her love of heavy metal and her experience as a college radio DJ made her even cooler and less like any adult he knew. And before long, he was opening up to her about everything in his life, his dad's death, how he didn't feel like he fit in and see Brooke at first, but then he found this great group of friends. You know, tell her things that he didn't feel like he fit in and see Brooke at first, but then he found this great group of friends. You know, tell her things that he wasn't talking to anybody else about.

He also was not serious at all about Project Self-esteem, but what he was serious about was Pam. As the week went on and he was spending more and more time with her in the administrative building, which remember was in the high school, they were getting closer and closer. And also I'm pretty sure that her office was in the high school. They were getting closer and closer. And also I'm pretty sure that her office was in the basement, so it was away from a lot of important nights. But anytime he had a free period, anytime he had lunch or a class he didn't feel like going to, he went to Pam's office. And it was easy because it was right there. Yeah. Now,

Billy, though, he wasn't the only one wanting to spend more time with Pam. Cecilia Pierce, Billy's friend and fellow project self-esteem volunteer, was also fascinated by her. Now, Cecilia was somewhat of like a wall flower, and she had big dreams of becoming a journalist. So, Pam was the embodiment of what Cecilia wanted for herself. She seemed like she was attractive, successful, and she had this commanding presence that Cecilia wanted for herself. She seemed like she was attractive, successful, and she had this commanding presence that Cecilia wanted to have, inspired to have. Her parents both worked full time,

so they weren't home a lot. Essentially, what I'm getting at here is that Cecilia didn't feel like she was noticed by a lot of people, and Pam always seemed to be the one to make time for her, and then they also had a lot in common because she wanted to be a journalist and Laudida do. You know? Yeah, it makes sense.

So, Pam eventually found out that Cecilia had an interest in media in journalism and she was like, oh, would you like to intern like at the media center with me? Yeah. And Cecilia jumped out the chance. Totally normal. Yeah. Right then. Cecilia's internship, good night, you got this. And normal. Yeah. Right. That Cecilia's internship. Good. You got this. And in our internship began in November. And for two periods a day, she joined Pam in the

basement office where she helped with type setting the school board's newsletter. She cataloged the AV equipment and basically did whatever else needed to be done. Now, of course, during her time as an intern, Cecilia and Pam got closer. Yeah. Because remember, Pam is this young administrator and Cecilia's looking up to her. She thinks she's so cool. Yeah. Cecilia said they only ever got into one argument and that Pam's response to the fight was asking Cecilia to please not be mad at her. She remembered thinking, here's this girl. She's 22, she's my friend, and she's actually apologizing to me. Or Cecilia, who was really used to being ignored and overlooked, the attention that she was

getting from Pam was intoxicating. Oh boy. And intoxicating. I was going to say what a word. I know, right? Now to anybody looking and unfortunately nobody actually seemed to be, it was, it would have been clear that Pam probably wasn't the best person for this position.

No. The kids really didn't necessarily respect her as an authority figure. They just saw her as a peer. And she was not really good at setting professional boundaries. What could have been a positive mentoring experience? Pretty quickly spiraled into something wildly inappropriate. Pam really, really loved being the center of attention. And like I was saying earlier, she liked to be friends with people that she had power and influence over.

There it is. So this new quote unquote friendship that she had with Billion Cecilia, aka their infatuation with her, started to make up for the distance that she was feeling was growing between her and Greg. Yeah. So this is exactly what you want. Her little high school friends who are like sophomores in high school. I don't like it at all.

Are making up for the issue she's having with her husband. And while Greg was kind of like growing up and losing interest in the music that they used to love and avoiding partying, Pam's new teenage friends were still interested in those things, and that she was super cool for loving them just as much as they did. Yeah, man.

So she's leaning even more and more into these kids. Now in December, Cecilia saw a flyer on Pam's desk for the Florida Department of Citrus' annual high school video competition, the 80s. Okay. Like a video competition. It was the 80s. It's almost the 90s.

But she mentioned to Pam that it sounded fun. So Pam agreed and with Cecilia's help, they recruited Billy Flynn and Cecilia's best friend, Karen Crowley to work on a submission. They were like, let's go win this floor and let's go. Now, none of them actually really thought the project was all that interesting and their concept, which was a rap song describing orange juice in the life of a caveman, wasn't really that original or clever. No, but it meant that they got to spend more time with each other throughout the week

and by January of 1990. The group was meeting several times a week at the school and eventually they started meeting up on Saturdays to at Pam and Greg's condo. Oh no. Where they would take long breaks to go sledding, read dinner together. I don't like this.

In a appropriate, so much singing, you're welcome. Yeah. Now, the video that they made did not win, it did not even get any kind of positive response from the apartment of citrus. Nobody really gave a shout about it. No. But the time that they spent making it led Pam

and all the kids to get closer. And she was becoming especially close with Billy. Billy's mom, like I said, was working multiple jobs to support the family. And Billy was usually in charge of his brother's Jimmy and Larry while she was gone. I guess in public, he was considered very quiet in polite. He didn't talk much about his feelings

or really anything at all. He was quiet. His mother Elaine said of him him outside of the family, people saw a kid that was polite and charming. Inside the family is where he took out his anger. At home, he could be whatever he was feeling like. And most of the time, he was feeling like a prick. Oh, wow, that's his mother.

She was like, he was a dick. Damn. She tried actually because she could see that Billy was struggling. I mean, he had just lost his dad and now he's acting out. So she's like, okay, he needs help lost his dad and now he's acting out. So she's like, okay, he needs help. Yeah.

So she tried to get help for him and she went to her friends and family for advice on how to handle him. But she said, quote, everybody's solution was beat the shit out of him. And she really didn't have any interest in beating any of her children. My God. So she just tried to keep the peace when she was whole. I'm glad she didn't have interest in beating her children. Me too.

I was happy to hear that. Oh goodness. But unfortunately, like we were saying to provide that home, she wasn't able to be there much. Yeah, because she's going to work. Billy was struggling emotionally and left mostly to his own devices. And then now he's really starting to struggle with feelings that he's having for Pam. He knows they can't be together because she's 22 and he's 15 at this point.

But it's confusing for him because she seems to be paying special interest to him and she seems like she likes him too. So he's like, I don't really know what to do about all this. So instead of really talking to Anna about anybody about it, he just would go to Pam and keep hanging out with her. And like the two of us would continue. Yeah. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast American scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our newest series, we look at the Kids for Cash scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice.

In Northeastern, Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers, and often for committing only minor offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines. The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would shatter the lives of countless children, and force a heated debate about punishment, an America's criminal justice system.

Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder App. Now Pam, as we know, she was going through a lot of changes and a lot of turmoil in her life. Her marriage was crumbling at that point. She and Greg barely had anything in common anymore. And one night around Christmas, 1989, Greg spent the night out drinking with friends and he didn't come home. It was another Boston night. Oh, man.

Didn't come home until the next morning. At first, he was like, I didn't come back because I was too drunk and I didn't want to drive. So I stopped at my friend's house, but she was like, I know't come back because I was too drunk and I didn't want to drive. So I slapped at my friend's house, but she was like, I know that's not the truth. Like, what really happened? And eventually she got the truth out of him. He cheated on her. Oh, no. So the tension grew between them,

and over the course of a few days, things reached a breaking point one night. When Pam showed up at Greg's parents' house, in the middle of the night, dressed in her pajamas, and she says to house in the middle of the night dressed in her pajamas, and she says to them in the middle of the night just in her pajamas that Greg had slapped her across the face, bent her over a railing in their condo and attempted to strangle her. Oh my God. I know.

Now, obviously, it was just Greg and Pam when this happened. So none of us have any idea if this happened or not. Very well could have. Absolutely. Very well could not have. Who knows? It's unclear. But when Bill smart confronted his son about it, Greg, Greg denied it and said, I haven't even touched her. She's a pain in the ass. I just told her to get the hell out of here. And then Pam would later claim that the slap was accidental. Okay. And none of their friends had any recollection of it happening,

but whether it happened or not, that incident kind of seemed to be the trigger point for the end of the marriage. Makes sense. You know, and it's one of those things where it's like, there's three versions of the story. Yours mine and the sort of thing. You're never gonna know what actually happened.

Like, do I think they probably got into a fucking nasty argument? Yes, but I am nobody to say what happened fast that. Yeah, like the physical portion of it would shock me? No, but I can't, I wasn't there. Exactly. Now, as Pam's life in Dairy was a rapidly disintegrating, she opted to spend more time in Hampton where she was getting idolized by Cecilia

and worshiped by Billy. Now, by February, they were still meeting several times a week, and Billy was still spending any free time he had hanging out with Pam, either in her office or at her condo. And one day, in early February, Pam brought some undeveloped film to Billy. He had previously told her that his upstairs neighbor,

or one of his upstairs neighbors, owned a one hour Photoshop, so he could get her a discount on photo processing. Okay. So later that day, when the photos were ready to pick up, Pam and Billy drove together to get them, and Pam immediately opened them up in the parking lot and just started like lawying to herself about them.

She was posing seductively in her bra and underwear and she then handed those pictures to Billy to look at. Oh, I hate that a lot. Please remember that she's 22 and this boy is a mother fucking sophomore in high school. Yep. She knew exactly what she was doing. Yep.

Also, the photos are laughable and you can Google them. Oh, God. It's just like, what are you doing? It's you took those knowing that you were going to give them to a 15-year-old. Come on. And that's so yaka-yaka. It's very yaka-yaka.

The most yaka-yaka. So the next day, she brought the photos to work with her. And she told Billy, she didn't think any of them were very good. So he could take any of them if he wanted to keep them. Like, how do you even have that conversation? I don't want to know how, how you ask. I retract. So later that afternoon, she called Cecilia into her office.

And she was like, I really have to talk to you about something, but it's personal. Now, clearly, like from the outside of this as adults, we're like, oh, she's grooming them. Yeah. She's slowly testing the waters while she plans to lead up to something more shocking, crazy requests, and then eventually straight up violations. She knows her audience. She knows that they're looking for positive attention, validation, and that because they were in the position that they were,

they weren't going to catch on to all the red flags that she was throwing their way. It's so sick. It's fucked. So once Cecilia went into Pam's office, Pam was like, oh my God, girl, sit down. I got to talk to you. And by now they had had so many chats about personal matters. So this wasn't strange. So it didn't feel weird to Cecilia exactly exactly, because she was groomed. Now, Pam just blurted out to Cecilia. I think I'm in love with Bill. Oh my God.

Now Cecilia just smiled, probably very unsure about what the fuck she was supposed to make of what Pam just said to her. Yeah. And I mean, the idea was absolutely insane. Pam was an adult, Billy was a teenager. So at first Cecilia probably was like, a L.O.L. like what? Well, and it's like she's making it seem like she's confiding

something in you. So like you are on that level with her. You're my good girl friends. Yeah, like I'm confiding in you. Like this is... So Cecilia is like, what? And like so Pam had to convince her that she was serious. And once she was convinced, Pam asked her

if she could pass a message along to Billy. She said, ask him to come by the media center after school so I can tell him myself. Oh my God. So Billy did as he was asked, but when he showed up in Pam's office, she was like really flustered and couldn't get what she wanted to say out.

So he left because he had to catch the school bus home Pam's office, she was like really flustered and couldn't get what she wanted to say out. So he left because he had to catch the school bus home because he's a child. He doesn't even have a license. No, he's taking the school bus home and his administrator was about to tell him that she's in love with him. I hate this. This full grown married individual is putting her two index fingers together like, I think I have a crush on you, Billy.

Yeah. Oh, I hate it. Like get a grip. So the next day, Billy skipped his free study period and went to Pam's office again and he was like, what the fuck is going on? Like why are you being so weird around me? This is coming out of nowhere. Yeah.

So she started being like awkward and seemed like she was embarrassed and she put her head down to avoid eye contact with him and said, do you ever think about me when I'm not around? Oh my God. And Billy was like, oh my gosh, I know exactly what you're talking about. Like, yes, I always do. And I mean, he was completely stunned, of course, but he was also over the fucking moon.

Of course, he's a 15-year-old, she's 22. So he told her, yeah, I do think about you all the time. And then they like talked about their feelings for each other briefly. Before Billy had to go back to his high school class. Oh my God, I hate it. He was like, yeah Pam, I really do think about you all the time, but I gotta get back to my early days.

I have to go to the fifth period. Like Jesus fucking Christ. That's so gross. So things were awkward in the days that followed. But eventually, that awkwardness just went all the way to the wayside. Oh no. A few weeks later, Pam visited Billy at his home, while his mother made dinner in the kitchen.

And Pam went up to his bedroom, closed the door behind her, try your best not to picture this. But Billy was laying on his bed, Pam was leaned against the door, and starry eyes by Motley crew was playing in the background. I hate everything about this. Don't picture it. I'm not. No. Pam asked Billy if he was going to kiss her, you know, with the romance of starry eyes. And he was like, oh my gosh, totally, but being the timid boy that she was, he wasn't

getting up to make a move, so Pam strode a cost the room and kissed him while his mother was making spaghetti downstairs because he can't even cook his own meals. I'm losing it, I just threw my computer. I'm closing my eyes and just trying to like rub away. This is called this associate. Oh.

Like his mom is downstairs, you fucking crazy woman. Oh, that's so awful. And she isn't thinking any of this because again, this is not a teacher. No. And she's probably like, I don't know what the fuck's going on. This is a violation of all kinds. So a couple of weeks after the kiss,

it's going to get so much more violent. Oh, no. Greg went out of town on a ski trip and Pam asked Billy if he would like to spend the night with her at her condo in Derry. So for Billy, who had been fantasizing about this very scenario since the moment he fucking met Pam, this entire thing is feeling surreal

and he's like, hell to the, yeah. I hate it. So he went and that night, he basically just shared an ordinary night with Pam, like an ordinary couple would Pam like a like a like an ordinary couple would accept he's 15. Very absolutely. They had dinner together. They watched nine and a half weeks. And then they retired to the bedroom. Pam dressed up in lingerie and danced seductively for Billy. Oh my

God. They're acting a scene from the film. And Billy would later tell a jury. She said she always wanted to dance for somebody like that. But there was never acting a scene from the film. And Billy would later tell a jury. She said she always wanted to dance for somebody like that, but there was never anybody she could do it for. How about your full grown husband? Oh my God. How about the man that you married? How about that?

I wrote an asterisk here and I wrote fucking twisted. So fucking twisted. That's exactly what it is. Fucking twisted. So now she's got her hold on Billy secure and she is quickly, quickly escalating things between them. Now she's discussing her relationship with Greg with Billy. And according to Billy, Pam only married Greg, quote, because back then it was the thing to do to marry the Greg. And also back then it was like two years ago you mother fucker back then but she would always talk to Billy about the different ways that Greg was

physically and emotionally abusing her according to her because again we don't know yeah I mean it's abusive to spit beer and somebody's face absolutely it is but she said there was also supposed a time where he locked her out of the house in the snow and she was only wearing her bra on underwear. Jesus. I was like, I would hope not because like his parents lived five minutes away. Like that's awkward, but we don't know if that's true. Yeah, we don't know. But she was very, very clearly trying to appear like she was a damsel in distress, a woman in need of saving, and it was working. Because Billy never liked Greg obviously because he's Pam's husband and a newfound rival.

But now he's hearing regular descriptions of domestic violence at Greg's hands. Yeah, so he hates Greg for what Pam claims he's doing to her. Of course. So a few weeks later, during one of her rants about Greg's dismissive and sometimes abusive behavior, Pam reminded Billy of a time when she asked whether or not he knew somebody that would kill for money. I don't know how that had come

up previously. You know, that doesn't often come up in my conversations, I will say. I don't think I've ever asked anybody if they just happen to know someone. That was a hitman. Yeah. That's never really something that just casually comes up in my life. Not me. You know, but not me. Not me. You couldn't be me. No way.

But apparently when she first asked, she had made the question in a joke. It was something about like needing to get rid of her secretary so she could get the job for her friend. Like it was silly. Yeah. But now Pam seemed serious. Only this time, obviously, it wasn't her secretary that she wanted to have killed. It was her husband.

Uh-oh. So, after a few weeks of hearing how terrible Greg was, Billy understood that Pam was angry and frustrated, but at the same time, he also found it very hard to believe that she actually wanted her husband murdered. Yeah. It might be pretty tough to wrap your head around that. Yeah, I would hope that would be strange to hear. Later on He would say he did become convinced when Pam quote started crying and said the only way she could

Excuse me Pam started crying and said the only way she could see for us to be together is if we kill Greg The thing is and I know he's 15 so like this isn't like he's not gonna Understand that like when you're looking at it from an outside perspective And I know he's 15, so like this isn't like, he's not gonna be around anymore. Wow, you should understand that. Like when you're looking at it from an outside perspective, you're like, but there is no way for you to be together because you're an adult and he is a child. And that is not consensual or okay in any way. So whether your husband is dead or alive and you divorce him,

you still can't be together. No, sure. It's still against all laws of goodness and law. Law. Like, how are you gonna tell your mom that you're dating a 22-year-old girl? You can't do that. I think she's gonna go for that.

So it's like, guys, no matter what, I don't know why it's like he has to be dead. That's the only thing stopping us from being together. No. The law of the land is what's stopping you from being together, you idiots. Like, are you kidding me? Well, so Billy did understand

that there were other options. He was like, what about divorce? Yeah. And she said, divorce simply wasn't an option. Pam said, quote, because everything was in Greg's name, or I believe it was Billy, that's it, this excuse me, because everything was in Greg's name and he'd take the car, the dog, the furniture,

and the money and she'd have to move in with her mother. Okay, well, if you guys have loves and that should be it, right? And also, like, she'd have to move in with her mother, she'd have to be an accessory to murder. Like, I think one outweighs the other. I think one is better. Like, even I have a shitty mom,

but I'm moving with her over killing my husband. And it's like, he's not gonna take everything, like you're gonna go through like an equidual, equitable division of the asset. Exactly. Like get fucked, girl. Get fucked. Get fucked. Get wrecked.

So knowing how attached and infatuated Billy was with her though, Pam took one thing, took things one step further. And she told Billy, we won't be able to spend time together outside of school as long as Greg's alive. You can't spend time together anyway outside of school. He's a child. Even if he's alive in your diverse voice, you still can't hang out outside of school. You can't. She's so manipulative. She's horrible. manipulative. Even like in prison, I'm pretty sure there's been like stories that have come out over the years where you're like,

Oh yeah, people don't stop. What? Yeah, these kind of people don't stop. Mm-hmm. From the moment though, Pam brought up the potential of killing Greg, the subject became an almost constant topic of conversation. First, just between Pam and Billy, but then eventually, between Pam and Billy and Cecilia. Uh-oh. At first, it was like an era of secrecy thing and it was like excitement around the affair. Their relationship was like part teenage romance.

They would like pass notes and have sex and parking lots. Ew. And also dangerous. Yeah. Like there was that whole side of it, but they loved that. Like they fed off of that. Oh, of course. But it was also illegal. And at the very least, Pam would get fired if anybody found out.

But eventually, her repeated appeals for Billy to Kill Greg took on a way more serious and way more urgent tone, and it made it seem like she was ready and serious. So after a few weeks of badgering, Billy finally caved and agreed to kill Greg smart. He would later say, I was afraid if I didn't do it, she would leave me, and that would be it. So once Billy agreed to kill Greg, it was like there was literally no other subject between them worth talking about.

Just like she had with the Orange Juice video and every other project in her life, Pam took over. She planned the murder like it was a project she was working on for school. She settled on the old classic. They would make the murder, look like Greg had been killed in a... accident. Robbery gone wrong, close. Robbery gone wrong. I mean also an accident.

Accident. You should see her face. I got very excited. I was like, I nailed it. Accident. I was like, oh nailed it. I was like, oh, most yours makes more sense. At that point, though, everything still seemed like it was fantasy or movie. Pam was like, Billy, here's what you're going to do. You're going to dress in all

black. You're going to park the car. He doesn't have one or a licensed robbery one. No, a few blocks from the condo. Then you're going to walk to my house. And you're going to wait for Greg to get home. And every day the plan was refined more and more. Billy should wear gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints. He should tie his hair back so nobody could identify him. He should wreck the house to make it seem like they've been robbed and so on and so forth. Now Pam, meanwhile, was going to establish a strong alibi by going to a school board meeting in Hampton at the time of the killing.

Genius. Genius. Brilliant. Oh my God, Pam, how'd you come up with it? Wow, this is just the brain trust at work. Excuse me, I had to call it. Stop coughing, how dare you. But what the plan seemed to lack was

on any realistic discussion of what it would be like to actually murder somebody or how Billy should even go about murdering him in the first place. Yeah, that'll just come. Well, why talk about that? What? Why figure that out? Now, even though the plan was for Billy to murder Greg, Pam wasted absolutely no time in making Cecilia an accomplice by keeping her updated on the plan.

She knew every last step. She was therefore many of the discussions between Pam and Billy, and her knowledge would later make her an asset to potential investigators and potential prosecutors. Okay. Now, when it came time to do the actual killing, Pam had everything planned down to the smallest detail. She was gonna leave the door to the basement unlocked

so that Billy could slip and undetected. Once inside, he was to bring the couples dog, Halen. Halen, fuck. Why can't I say Halen? You said it right. Oh, I said it right. And I said you said it right.

And then you changed it. So you were correct. Thank you, brother. Nailed it. Once inside, he would bring the couples dog, Halen, into the basement, so as not to cause any commotion. I always hate that part of things. I know.

When they'll like throw a dog in like a bathroom or something to kill the owner. And it's like, what do you do? And it's always a tiny dog because they can do that. Like with a tiny dog, like a big dog. So you got to fuck your world up. Hell yeah. But it's like these poor little tiny baby dogs

are always just like tossed in a bedroom or a closet or something. And then the whole of their emotion is being murdered out there. Yeah. Like, that part always gets me. It's like when somebody takes off somebody's glasses before they do something or like rips their glasses off, it's just like, that's exactly it. It just like stresses me out.

It like adds to it. Yeah. But so once Hailey was in the me out. It like adds to it. Yeah. But so once Haelen was in the basement, then Billy would return to the first floor and wait for Greg to come home, at which point he was to shoot Greg in the head and then trash the apartment to make it look like he'd been killed,

again, when he walked in on a robbery. Yeah. Now, even as they planned meticulously, Cecilia definitely never thought that these two were actually gonna go through with the plan. She was just like, wow, this is fucking wild that you guys are talking about this. Okay, so everybody stop assuming they're not gonna go forward in the plan.

Every fucking story, I tell. Every time. Every fucking story. It's like, I heard them plan it meticulously, but I didn't think they'd do it. But I never thought they'd do it. And it's like, yes, I understand. It sounds like you're like a more logical person

Cecilia in that way, where you're saying, well, there's no way that these two idiots are gonna kill her husband. Like that's wild. But like, also, if they're talking about it, like normal people don't talk about killing their husbands. No, they don't. That's just, that's not a...

That's standard practice. That's really not something that just gets thrown about and then you all all about it and you move on. No. If they're talking about it, in some way, in some part of their soul, they are planning to do this. It's true.

Just a little PSA to everybody. You should go home and tell your mom. Yeah, tell someone. Anybody. Now, she would later tell investigators that Billy just wasn't a violent kid. Sure he was angry, but enough that he would execute somebody in cold blood, probably not.

No, probably not. So that was most likely why she continued to go along with it, even when they started brainstorming where Billy was gonna get a gun, because they plotted that whole part before they even had access to a gun. Now Cecilia actually did contribute to the plan and suggested that Billy could use her father's gun, but she hadn't seen her dad in several years so that wasn't really a viable option. Wow, yeah. Then she

suggested a woman she worked with at Papagino. She said she knew this lady kept a handgun and the glove compartment of her car. And that actually seemed like a pretty easy option because Billy loved stealing things from vehicles. So he said, whoa, another one, let's go. Yeah, I love doing this. So he hung around the parking lot of the Papagino several nights in a row until he finally was able to break into the woman's car. But when he did, there was no gun in the compartment. Ah, so ultimately they would use a gun

that they stole from JR's father. Okay. With hollow point bullets, Billy convinced a friend to buy for him. Now, he said the reason for the hollow points was, quote, because they would be the quickest and most painless. Ooh, this is like really chilling. It's so chilling.

Now, Pam and Billy had spent so long talking about killing Greg that the whole thing kind of just seemed like a perverse game. And for that reason, it probably came as a shock to Billy when one afternoon in late March, Pam insisted that it couldn't wait any longer and it needed to be done that night. But the problem was that Billy still didn't have a gun, did not have a car or a license to operate one, because he's a child. Pam, your lover is a virgin who can't draw ice.

Okay. That was a perfect insertion of that line. Thank you. Appreciate that. Now, when Billy pointed all these facts out, all Pam had to offer was, well, hurry up and get them by tonight. Okay. What? What? What? So Billy was like, okay, I'll try, but he couldn't figure that out. No. And he wasn't ready to murder somebody in cold blood. He said, it's not something I wanted

to do. And I didn't think she'd be mad or anything if I didn't. At least at first he didn't think that. But unfortunately, Billy was very wrong. Pam was in fact very angry that he didn't follow through with the murder of her current husband. When he called her later to tell her that he hadn't done it, she exploded on him and screamed at him through the phone. You don't love me. If you did, you would do this for me. It's the only way we could be together.

And if you loved me, then you would want us to be together. Wow. Now this was the first time he had seen her pissed off because she's been grooming him, so she's been building him up, building him up, and building him up, and not showing any of her real. And now she's about to fucking lose it on him. Now through tears, he started crying.

And was like, okay, next time I'm gonna go through with it, but she persisted and screamed at him, I know you're never gonna do this. You don't have any intention of doing this, and I can't go on seeing you like this if we're not gonna be together. And then she slammed the phone on the receiver and hung up on him.

That's so fucked up. It's so manipulative. That's so fucked up. This is a manipulative. That's so fucked up. This is a child. This is a 15-year-old. And she knows that. Like, yeah, a 15-year-old should know better than to murder someone.

That is absolutely 100% true. But on the other side of this, a fucking adult should know that a 15-year-old in a 15-year- old boy who is clearly like in puppy love with you is highly impressionable. And she does. And she's exactly, and that's the thing. It's like, there's wrongs here on each level,

but her bed, this imbalance of power here is so beyond fucked. Absolutely. And remember everybody, it never would have happened if it weren't for Pam's part. Yeah. Billy never would have murdered. He wouldn't have just randomly murdered this guy. Like never would have happened if it weren't for Pam's part. Yeah. Billy never would have murdered him. He wouldn't have just randomly murdered this guy. If it weren't for Pam.

If it weren't for Pam. He wasn't showing any kind of, like sure, he was like a little thief. Yeah. He was like, he was a shitty kid, like for sure. But it's like in his mom was like, he was kind of a freak. He didn't really show like true, like, who knows?

None of us really know. But it's like, likely wouldn't have. No. No. no, no. So the next day Cecilia pulled Billy aside and she said, Pam wants to see you. Now in her office in the media center, Pam apologized for yelling at Billy on the phone and said, don't worry.

There's another school board meeting scheduled for next month so you'll have another chance to kill Greg. And Billy said later. Yeah, right. Billy said later, that's when I started getting serious about it. I thought that if I do something, like, I thought that if I do something, like,

not go through that, she's going to leave me, and that's going to be it. This is the time I really started talking to J.R. and Pete about it, those were his two friends. And that is where we're going to wrap up for part one. But next week, we're going to get into the final plan, the night of the murder, and the subsequent trials of those involved. But something to think about, more people are involved than you might think.

Ooh, later on. Okay. This plan gets finalized with a lot more players than you're probably thinking about this moment. This is just so messy. It's a bunch of fucking more. It's so messy from the beginning of this marriage until the end, I'm sure it's all messy. It's absolutely terrible.

These are two people that definitely should not have gotten married. No. These are two people that never should have met, like Billy and Pam. Yeah. And this is a relationship that never should have occurred. Exactly. Multiple relationships that never should have occurred between Billy and Pam, wait til

you and Pam and yeah. Inappropriate relationships for sure. So when that being said, we help you keep listening. Oh, and we hope you keep it weird. But never this fucking weirder are else. Literally never this weird. Don't be a listener of the show and keep it that fucking weird. Don't you know how weird to take it.

Okay. And this is not it. It's not it. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Bye.