Morbid - Episode 464: The Pamela Smart Case (Part2)

Episode Date: June 1, 2023

A little after 10:00 pm on the evening of May 1, 1990, Pamela Smart returned home from work to find her husband, twenty-four-year-old Gregg Smart, lying dead just beyond the front door of their condominium, a single bullet hole in his head. Detectives from the small town of Derry, NH arrived to find what appeared to be the scene of a robbery; though, very little looked to have been stolen and to investigators the scene felt staged. Two days later, Derry Police Captain Loring Jackson announced that Gregg Smart’s death wasn’t a random attacked, he’d been murdered by someone who knew him. The murder of Gregg Smart, and the trial that followed, shocked the population of New Hampshire, where it remains perhaps the most notorious criminal trial in the state’s history. As the first criminal trial to be televised from beginning to end, the case of Pamela Smart and her teenage lover captivated a national audience, leading to television and feature films, several nonfiction books, and countless television specials in the decades that followed.Special thank you to the brilliant David White for research assistanceReferencesBaker, Frank. 1990. "Smart to be jailed until trial." Concord Monitor, August 14: 1.—. 1990. "Widow charged as accomplice." Concord Monitor, August 2: 14.Carton, Barbara. 1991. "The Pamela Smart story." Boston Globe, Marcg 21.1991. NH v. Smart: Opening Statements. Directed by Court TV. Performed by Court TV.Derry News. 1990. "Family and friends puzzle over murder." Derry News, May 4: 1.Englade, Ken. 1991. Deadly Lessons. New York, NY: St. Martin's Press.Gaines, Judith, and Alexander Reid. 1991. "Jurors say tales a key to their decision." Boston Globe, March 23: 1.Hernandez, Monica. 2023. Accomplice in Smart murder asks for sentence reduction. January 10. Accessed May 1, 2023. https://www.wmur.com/article/smart-murder-vance-lattime-sentence-reduction/42449265.Hohler, Bob. 1991. "3 guilty in N.H. killing." Boston Globe, January 30: 1.—. 1991. "Confidant was wired by police." Boston Globe, March 15: 21.—. 1991. "Smart is found guilty." Boston Globe, March 23: 1.—. 1991. "Smart pleaded for life, N.H. teen-ager testifies." Boston Globe, March 6: 19.—. 1991. "Tales of seduction." Boston Globe, March 12: 1.—. 1990. "Tape offered at Smart hearing." Boston Globe, August 14.—. 1991. "Witness: Smart asked for tips on reaction." Boston Globe, March 3: 27.—. 1991. "Youth says blood flowed, tears did not." Boston Globe, March 13: 35.Kilgannon, Corey. 2023. "Smart, who plotted with a teen lover to kill her husband, loses a parole bid." New York Times, March 30.Kittredge, Clare. 1991. "A verdict to take to son's grave." Boston Globe, March 23: 1.—. 1991. "Smart trial garners big TV audience." Boston Globe, March 17: 1.Richardson, Franci. 1990. "Mrs. Smart absolutely convinced husband surprised thief." Derry News, May 9: 1.Sawicki, Stephen. 1991. Teach Me to Kill: The Shocking True Story of the Pamela Smart Murder Case. New York, NY: Avon Books.Schweitzer, Sarah. 2015. "5 years later, shooter to go free: William Flynn was 16 when he was lured into murder by Pamela Smart." Boston Globe, March 13: A1.State of New Hampshire v. Pamela Smart. 1993. 622 A.2d 1197 (Supreme Court of New Hampshire, February 26).Wang, Beverley. 2005. "Pamela Smart accomplice released." Concord Monitor, June 15: 10.West, Nancy. 2016. Breaking Silence: Cecelia Pierce Speaks. October 12. Accessed April 24, 2023. https://www.nhmagazine.com/breaking-silence-cecelia-pierce-speaks/.West, Nancy, and David Mendelsohn. 2016. Pamela Smart: innocent of (still) guilty. October 13. Accessed April 29, 2023. https://www.nhmagazine.com/pamela-smart-innocent-or-still-guilty/  https://www.bostonherald.com/2015/03/09/brother-of-pamela-smarts-victim-killer-did-his-time/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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than the national average savings rate. Apply for your Apple card now in the wallet app on iPhone and start growing your daily cash with savings today. Apple card subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple card owners, subject to eligibility requirements. Savings is available to Apple Card owners, subject to eligibility requirements. Savings accounts provided by Goldman Sachs Bank USA. Remember FDIC? National Average Savings Rate is from FDIC website. Terms apply. Hey, Weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alena. And this is morbid. It's so morbid here. It's so morbid because it's the day after the mother fucking scandal of all finale. Yeah, you're gonna have to bear with us for like a moment here because...

Maybe a few moments. The Vanderpump rule Super Bowl has begun. Start it. Really? Yeah, commence. Commence. Commence. Yeah.

Let the game begin. Let the game begin. Yeah, comments, comments. Yeah, let the game, let the games begin. Yeah, I really. But we had the finale of Vanderpump rules last night. I know some of you are like skips, skips, and that's okay. It's okay. But for those who take those of you who celebrate,

was that or was that not the most infuriating thing you've ever seen? Like, we've seen a lot of cheating go down on this show. We have never seen cheating to this level go down on this show. When Sandival walked into Rekel's LED in Galaxy Lit apartment, Mama grow up, I left my soul left my body. When Sandival called Rekel Ariana,

and she still was like, I love you. Oh my God, I was beside myself. Also, beside myself on the couch. Are you team, he absolutely fucking said I love you and then said he didn't say it or are you team, he said they love you? He definitely said I love you.

A girl I saw on TikTok literally like slowed it down and he said I love you. Why are I saw on TikTok literally slowed it down. And he said, I love you. Why are you playing mind games with your mistress? He's a lot. Like what? He's a lot. They're both really disgusting. His, the way he talked to Ariana last night,

I was like, Ariana, you, you are dodged. Thank you, I love the century. You are thriving my goddess. Because Belle she did with Kristen. It worked. It absolutely worked. Look at her flourishing out here in these streets. When Kristen did that spell with her,

we looked at each other and we were like, that shit worked. Because look at her. That's why we used to spell it. She doesn't even give a shit. We have a cell night up in here too. And last night, watching Ariana on Watch What Happens Live in the revenge dress of the century.

I showed John and I was like, I was like, tell me this isn't a goddess that we should like worship at her feet. Also, how do you cheat on that exquisite looking human snack being? They always cheat down. Always, but like, how do you even cheat period? And remember, I think I asked my ex-boyfriend straight out

because he was like a big old cheater. Yeah. And I asked him one of the times because I was like, I just really like to get insight on this because like I've never actually met somebody that does this kind of heinous shit. I never met a monster like you, just tell. I was like, so can I interview you real quick?

I was like, why, why that girl? Like what's that about? And he literally said, I was like, why is it always like, this is making me feel uncomfortable? And he was like, yeah, it's just really, he's like, it's easy, it's easier. Wow.

And I was like, wow, you really just, you just gave that just right up. Like just, I don't wanna have to work for the cheating. No, it's so true. And then. But they fucking worked for this. I mean, they hid that, or tried to hide the shit for months and months. Oh, they'll work to, they'll work to,

can tie it. But they don't want to work to have to get it started. Well, I just, and Sandeval did not work to get this started. I mean, well, yeah. Rachel was ready and willing to start this whole thing. And the fact that he had the mother fucking audacity to blame it on Ariana, like,

oh, if she had just followed me, what? I just followed you now. I just followed you now. Like what about that thing that you build throughout a nine year relationship called trust? One of my favorite parts in Don't Worry, we'll get to the case, but we just got us about this out.

If one of my favorite parts was that it definitely was Ariana's fault because she was just never in a place for him to tell her that he was cheating on her for seven months. The vibes were never right, but he literally said she was just never open to hearing it. I'm sorry. When are you open to hearing

that your partner of almost 10 years has been having an affair with one of your best friends for seven months? When will you ever be in a place of like, you know what, I'd love to hear that. Let's sit down and chat. Yeah, I'm really open to hearing something catastrophic today. So let's sit down and you can just tell me whatever you want. And then just like one more small thing

and then we'll get on with it. Him, like, her trying to talk to him and him just like, taking the longest fucking pause to take a sip of that drink. Because he had to think of what he was saying because he just can't. Are you? He can't human. And also, I feel like he had to get like

an advertising moment in there. I was like, we're advertising right now. Well, and he just, he doesn't know how to human. Like, he had to like take a minute and be like, how do I human in this moment? So, you know, unreal. If you don't watch, guys,'t know how to human. Like he had to like take a minute and be like, how do I human in this moment? So, you know, unreal. If you don't watch, guys, get on it. Get on it.

Peacock has a whole like playlist, basically, of the most important episodes. There you go. So that you know what's up. But honestly, like a code for you or something. I know. But start from season one. I'll give you all my log in.

All of you by log in. I don't think that would work, but I think they would catch on to that one. You know, you never know. But yeah, so Vanderpump aside, I didn't think I ever said that. After that scandal. Oh my goodness. Here's another scandal for you. Cheaters everywhere.

The theme of the episode today is cheaters. Cheaters. Um, this is part two of the Pam Smart, Greg Smart series. It's not really a series, it's just a two-parter. Part two. Part two. But when we left off in part one, we got all the yucca details about Pam and Billy's

quote-unquote relationship. It's hard for me to call it a relationship because she's an adult and he's a child. Yeah. So that's hard. They're crime. We heard about that. We heard about Pam and her husband, Greg's relationship becoming way more toxic.

And finally, how she asked her teenage lover at this point, I believe he's 16. Your old Billy Flynn to kill her husband. Ugh. So if you don't remember, from part one, let me just give you like a quick little recap. The plan was for Billy to go into the house through the basement. Pam was going to leave that basement door unlocked. Billy would wait there for Greg to get home. He would shoot him and stage the scene to be a robbery.

And remember, Pam would be like she would get a whole alibi out of this because she would be away at some kind of school board meeting. Okay. Like we said in part one, Billy had no gun, no car, no license. And he also wasn't quite sure how he felt about murdering a human. Wow. So the first time Pam asked him, he couldn't go through with it. But like we know, she lost it on him. But at the very end of part one, we heard that Billy had another quote-unquote opportunity, because there was another school board meeting that Pam was gonna be away at.

So now let's get into exactly how Pam, Billy, and some of Billy's friends actually did carry out their plan to commit murder. So if you remember from part one, two of Billy's best friends were JR and Patrick, wow, who's known as Pete. And they were the ones who like to work on junk cars together in JR's front yard.

Yes. They were the first best friends that Billy made when his family had moved to Seabrook three years earlier. And they were both very instrumental in helping Billy get through life when his father died. Their families all knew them as like the three musketeers. They did literally everything together. In fact, there wasn't a lot that they wouldn't have done

for each other. And that statement was about to be taken to the next level. Uh-oh. So the first time Billy brought up the idea, you know, the one about killing a whole last man to his friends was the first or second week of April. Okay.

It can't be like too short. But he told his two friends that there would be a lot in it for them. Once the worst part was done, which he said obviously was killing Greg, they could take any valuables that they wanted from the house. Oh, fantastic. Yeah, silver linings. Yeah, woohoo.

So one afternoon Ralph Welch, who I mentioned it in part one, he had been staying with JR. Okay. Yeah, he got kicked out of his house, so he was staying at the last time house. He had a cousin over, Ralph did, that Alfton, that ended up Eve's dropping on a conversation between Billy Pete and J.R. about the murder. Oh, damn, they're sloppy. So rather than contact authorities or tell someone, the cousin who's Ray, Ray Fowler, not boy Fowler.

Ray Fowler just decided he wanted in on it. Like instead of going to anybody and being like, hey, they're going to kill someone. He was like, oh yeah, like, can I get out of this? What can I get out of this? What's up? Wow, everybody. Yeah.

A piece of shit. How? I always wonder how we say it every time. How do these people find each other? How do these people find each other? It's so wild to me. It really is. Now Rae was a few years older than Billy and his friends.

Rae was 18. He already had way more than his fair share of run-ins with the police. And the most recent was his four months stay at the Rockingham County House of Corrections. He had already served time. Oh, okay. Yeah. No big deal. He said he was most interested in the burglary.

And he would help with the murder if he had to. Oh, okay. He was really just there to burglare. he would help with the murder if he had to. But he was really just there to burglarize the house. Yeah, absolutely. Now that he had a full team assembled, though, Billy was like, okay, like I guess we should start looking for a weapon so that we can carry out this murder. Now a lot of the kids involved thought that finding the gun would be the easiest part of their plan. I don't really know why. They were like, oh, I should be a little too bad. That's why. But they were surprised at what a hard time they were having. So that's when they decided that they should find

a large hunting knife as a backup plan. A large hunting knife? As a backup plan. Your backup plan is to stab this man hand-to-hand combat without a hunting knife. And you're worried about shooting him? Like, you can tell that these are just kids. Kids, like, their frontal lobes are not developed.

It's wild. So yeah, they decided to look for a large hunting knife as a backup plan, but, you know, they were still gonna look for a gun. Now, while the other boys kept on trying their different connections to find a gun, Billy went to Pam and he was like, hey, we're still having trouble looking for a car to use since you know none of us have a license. And she was like, oh my god, that's fine. I have a Honda CRX and you guys can use it. I'll park it behind the building on the night of the school bird meeting.

I'll leave the key in the ignition. Take off as soon as you get there. Okay. No problem. Yeah. So the plan did come to fruition for the first time in mid-April. Billy packed a duffel bag of dark clothing that he was going to change into, and the four boys, Billy, Pete, Ray, and JR, loaded into Pam's car, which was parked behind the building like she said it was going to be, and they started making their cond- their way to the condo and dairy. But as they were driving, Billy was getting way more anxious the closer they got. He started to freak the fuck out. He didn't want to go through with the murder anymore. And he actually started giving Ray Fowler the wrong directions

so that they would get lost. It's like, my guy, just stop. Like, you don't want to do this. And don't have to do this. And the dumb half thing in the world is telling you not to, including your own conscience, which apparently you have. Seriously. So they did end up getting lost, but somehow Ray finally did figure out his way to the condo. But when they got there, Greg had already gotten home. So already the plan was fucked.

And so they felt like they had missed their window, so they headed back to Hampton. Also, I can't help but think of Greg in that moment, like just carrying out his normal night in his own home, having no idea how close he was to the people that were gonna murder him. That's what's crazy to me is he had no idea these kids were driving around just waiting. And that they literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally-

They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- They literally- absolutely furious with him. She was like, if you loved me as much as you said, then you would stop making excuses, you'd follow through. She went with the whole, I don't know if we should be together anymore, if you can't do this for me. Wow, what a piece of shit.

Yeah, a piece of shit. This is the second time now that she's done this. So finally, Billy broke down and he said, next time I won't fail. Oh my god. Fail. Like, no, you're failing if you're murdering someone. That's a big old failure. Like go down the right path here, Billy.

And that's a walk away. It's so sad to see how many times he almost did, but she brought him right back into her fucking tangled web. She knew that what that he could be manipulated. And he was. So the next time came a few weeks later on May 1st, one Pam was once again scheduled to be at a school board meeting. So P and JR agreed to help a second time, but now they decided that they wanted to be paid. Wow.

So not only did they want the valuables at the house, they wanted payment. So Billy went to Pam about this and she was like, okay, I'll give them $1,000 each, but I'm going to pay it out in installments of $50 per week. So it doesn't seem suspicious. Oh yeah, you paying these two kids for literally no reason at all is not suspicious.

Yeah, that would be suspicious. I don't know. It's just the amount. That's all. That's crazy. You're insane. Otherwise, the murder was just to move forward like Pam had planned all along.

Now in the days leading up to the murder, she made sure that they weren't going to fuck it up this time. She drove around the neighborhood with Billy and Cecilia pointing out where they should park the car so that they wouldn't be noticed sneaking into the condo. And JR agreed to take one of his father's guns to use, but they still planned on bringing the knife with them just in case. And this time, they were taking JR's grandmother's car. Oh, man.

They drove in Grocer and Grocer. They drove in Nana's car to commit murder. Yeah. So in the morning of May 1st, Greg went to work. He did some paperwork, returned a couple phone calls, and then he ducked out of the office early. The reason he left early was because he was gonna be having a dinner with a few clients that evening. But in the meantime, he went to his parents' house,

he played with his little niece, chatted with his parents, fixed a flat tire, and then went off to all his appointments. So it was 8.30 at night by the time he finished up with his clients and headed back home to Derry. And by that time all the arrangements had been made. Pam had left the basement door unlocked and she told the joy, the boys were all the jewelry were, what was all the valuables told them exactly where they could find everything.

And she said the rest of the details she didn't want to know. Oh, okay. I don't want to know. I was like, what you do know, because you plan to hire a thing from beginning to end. Yeah. And I'll let you do it. I'll let you deal with all that. And live with that. Yeah. But I don't want to know the details.

Yeah. Fuck you. So it was still light out when they all arrived in Derry. So they drove around a little bit before JR parked the car in a shopping plaza near Misty Morning Drive. Billy and Pete sat in the back seat. They were taping, excuse me, taping their fingers so that they wouldn't leave fingerprints.

They taped their fingers. Jesus. Then Billy loaded the 38 revolver that JR had taken from his dad's collection. And once the sun went down, they Billy and Pete, the two of them, crept around the backside of the condo until they found the door that led to Greg and Pam's unit, the basement door. Now they made their way inside, Billy had to chase around the dog who was barking and growling,

and he was like, I'll get the fuck out of my house. Oh, I think that's... Billy got him into the basement. And this is like a tiny dog. Is it, yeah, a little... It's a, what is it, a shitsy way? I was gonna say it's a little guy. Exactly.

So then once the dog was out of the way, they headed upstairs, they ripped apart the couple's bedroom, peat through everything of value into a pillowcase that he'd taken from their bed. Wow. And then they did the same thing on the first floor. They turned over side tables, lamps, just grabbed whatever they thought was valuable.

Peat grabbed a knife from the kitchen and cut open multiple pillows on the couch, and just like spread the stuffing out across the living room floor, I guess, for a dramatic effect. I was like, what was the point of that? Yeah, like was that just for fun? Like I don't think robbers slice pillows. I mean, I don't know, but maybe it's weird.

So once they felt like they had sufficiently ransacked the house, Billy and Pete sat in the dark, just waiting for Greg to get home. And as they waited, they talked about the best way to subdue him when he finally did walk in the door. Billy thought that it might be a good idea to wait in the closet and jump out when Greg finally walked in. Or he suggested that maybe they should throw a towel over his head when he arrived, till like disorientant. This man walks into his house and they throw a towel over his head?

They're just sitting there deciding what they're going to do. Now, finally, they settled on a strategy. Pete would wait behind the door and surprise Greg when he walked in, and then Billy would turn off all the lights and close the door. Now, a few minutes after they settled on their plan, they watched Greg's truck pull into the driveway. So in the excitement and anxiety that they were having, Billy and Pete's positions got switched and Billy ended up behind the door.

Okay. So Greg walked in the front door, he flicked on the hall light and called out to the dog. Everything was eerily silent for a few seconds and then Billy jumped out from behind the door and grabbed Greg by his shoulders. So obviously he's like stunned. So he yells out and he pulls back hard. But before he could get away, Pete rushes over and he rushes up behind Greg and pushes him to the floor. Then he turns off the lights and closes the door. Now when he turned back, Billy had Greg on the floor in front of the stairs, just beating him in the face. Well, Greg was just trying to block any of the blows.

This man just walked into his house, into his home, to this chaos, after a full day of work, after spending time with his family earlier, just being a normal fucking guy. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill? Or are they made to kill?

I'm Candice DeLong and on my podcast Killer Psychy Daily, which you can find exclusively on Amazon Music. I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds you read about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and a criminal profiler. On Killer Psychie Daily, I'll give you my expert perspective on cases like the mysterious New York City drugings, Breaking Down Lori Valow, a.k.a.

Mommy Doom stays motives, and what drove Caitlin Armstrong to murder? I'll also bring on expert guests who add even more insight into these criminal minds. I promise you won't regret adding these 10 minutes to your morning routine. Hey, Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast Killer Siky Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. Hey there, fellow podcast listener. It's Elena.

And Ash! And we're taking you back to the days before streaming services. Whoa! You know when you would come home from high school and it was only a few hours until that TV show Everyone was watching was about to come on well in 1999 that show was Buffy the vampire slayer in our podcast with Wondery the rewatcher Buffy the vampire slayer We take it back to 1999 so get out your knee high boots and paste that poster of angel on the wall

It's time to enter the Buffyverse. Some of you avid morbid listeners already know what we've gotten store. Hey, Lennos. Join us as we sway our way through Buffy's drama, action, and romance. Episode by episodes. Lacey, follow the rewatcher, Buffy the Vampire Slayer,

wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Dar-nar-nararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararararar and grabs Greg by the hair and slams his head into the wall. They like attacked him. Oh my God. And Pete screams at him, get down on your knees, and he lunged forward slightly with the knife in his hand to make Greg do what he wanted to say. So Greg did as he was told, and he said, just don't hurt me, dude. Oh my God.

He repeatedly asked about the dog, like, where's the dog? Where's the dog? Oh! And Pete finally told him nobody had heard the dog. And then Pete demanded that Greg take off his wedding ring and give it to them. And Greg said, I can't give it to you. My wife would kill me.

So he had obviously no idea that his wife had orchestrated this whole thing and he's thinking about her getting mad at him. Oh my God. Up until the very end, which I'm sorry, that tells you exactly who Pam was, that he was like, his whole life is being threatened right now and he's like, I can't give you this ring. She'll get mad at me, even if it's me giving it to Robert. Like, wow.

Damn. That should tell you everything you need to know right there. So telling, like the horrific irony in that statement. Oh, that's awful. My wife would kill me. Like, that's really awful. It's terrible. And just him saying, like, don't hurt me and him saying, like, where's the dog? Where's the dog? Like worrying about everything else around. Like, I just, that's like really gut wrenching. That's the perfect word for it. So they fumbled around with his wallet. They were procrastinating until there was finally nothing left to do, but to kill him.

So from the moment they started talking about the plant to kill Greg, Pete had been confident that he was going to be able to do it without a second thought. He was like, I can do it. He was boasting to his friends, telling them that he was actually curious to know what it would be like. And shut the fuck up. He was saying he was looking forward to it. to know what it would be like. And shut the fuck up. He was saying he was looking forward to it.

These kind of idiots who like later, when you hear that they're like, yeah, I'm looking forward to it, it's like, I can't wait. Get so wrecked. Get so wrecked, my guy. Like, oh, that is dark-sotted. That's given dark-sotted, silly dark-sotted.

But now he was faced with the reality of actually murdering a human. Of course. So things felt a little different than he thought they might. That's the thing. I'm like, you're disgusting But now he was faced with the reality of actually murdering a human. Of course. So things felt a little different than he thought they might. That's the thing. I'm like, you're disgusting for like play, play acting. Like, oh, yeah, I'm actually looking forward to it.

It's like, fuck you, dude. Okay, tell a guy. Yeah, you're fucked if you're old. And now there's a man sitting in front of you on his knees begging for his life. What are you gonna do? Exactly. And he couldn't handle it. Later during the trial, Pete would testify that Greg's comments

about the wedding ring and his, excuse me, his pleas for his life made him in that moment regret what they were doing. Of course it did. So you should have stopped. Mm-hmm. You should have stopped and you should have said, my guy, your wife sent us to do this

and we don't wanna do it. I so wish, I so wish that the story ended that way. And she went away for attempted murder or conspiracy. That's the thing. Like this should have been, like these little boys, and that's the worst part about this. That's what they're saying.

That's what these children had, the wherewithal or the, you know, any kind of moral compass here to stop and go, I can't do this. I was sent here to kill you and I don't wanna do it. And I was sent here by your wife. So you need to get the fuck out of this marriage and we gotta go away.

Like, we're so sorry that we didn't hear. I would be alive. These kids would be, you know, they would have gotten in trouble. But they would have been what they're in trouble for now. And in the end, they would have been the heroes of the story because they saved his life. That's the end, they would have been the heroes of the story. Because they saved his life. That's the thing. They would have turned around

and been the ones that sat there and went, you know what? What the fuck were we thinking agreeing to do this? And they can take their consequences, but it wouldn't have been the consequences they get now. It would have been, we thought about it. We had a heart, like, into think now, into here now, that like that kid sat there and regretted it and before you do have it. Before you do have it. But being like, I don't even want to be here,

but he still did it. It's like my guy, you had a chance and you didn't take it. So whatever the fuck you got after that, you deserve. Absolutely. And it's so frustrating. Absolutely. Oh, what a frustrating story. It really is. It's just terrible. Yeah. And it's so frustrating. Absolutely. What a frustrating story. It really is. It's just terrible. Yeah. So in the moment, when Pete realized that he couldn't do it, he looked to Billy and nodded his head in the direction

of the revolver. That was in Billy's jacket pocket. So Billy knew what that meant, obviously. He grabbed the gun from his pocket. He pulled back the hammer and held it right near Greg's head. The three of them stood there. Pete was still gripping Greg by the hair. And Billy was holding the man to, excuse me, holding the gun to the man's head for what he would later say to a jury felt like a hundred years. Oh, and Greg is just sitting

there, just sitting there being led to his head being, or they gonna do this. Right, because at that point he's probably like, are they even gonna do this? Or are they just trying to scare me? Like, what's going on here? Oh, Nenbillion hailed deeply. And before he pulled the trigger, he said, God, forgive me. Baby, God. I don't know him.

I don't know much about him, but I don't think he's gonna forgive you for that. If there is a God and you believe in that God, that God does not forgive you, my friend. I can tell you that much. You just stuck a gun to some man's head. Like us, his wife that you are fucking told you to. That's not a real friend.

I don't think that's for you for that. Yeah, I don't think that's something that just gets written off in the book. I'm also like, did you just got her? You there, it's me, Margaret, in the middle of a murder. Did you just got that's what you just did? That's what you just did. Like how dare you?

Fuck you. How dare you. Fuck you. How dare you. Fuck you. Like I'm not religious, but how fucking dare you. No me either. That's just like disgusting to bring God into that situation is fucked. Like what a mockery that is. It is absolutely.

Or it feels like at least I would think so. So with the plan completed, the both of them ran for the back door, Pete grabbed the pillow case full of the valuables, and then they ran through the plan completed, the both of them ran for the back door, Pete grabbed the pillowcase full of the valuables, and then they ran through the back door. They jumped the railing on the back porch, and ran, there was a big field behind the condo, so they ran through that until they saw the headlights of JR's grandmother's car.

Oh my God. You imagine if I was his grandma, I'd be like, you have been written out of my will. Oh, yeah. And then some, you've been written out of all the wills. You've been written out of my life. You can even get your own will. That's what I would say, exactly.

I'm revoking you're right. You don't have one. No, I mean, what do you really have at that point? But the plan was for the other two boys to wait in the parking lot until Billion Pete returned, but something had changed. I think they got nervous. So they were parked in a different area

than they should have been. So both boys were falling over themselves as they were sprinting through the grass until finally they got to the car and they heard themselves into the back seat and shouted for them to drive. Now, billion Pete changed in the back seat as they just drove along the back roads back to Seabrook. They threw a ton of items of clothing out of the window as they drove. But what didn't get thrown out of the window went into the black...

Or went into the duffel bag, which they would ditch in the woods on the way back. Okay. I'm so excited. I'm like, he's so excited to tell the story. Yeah. So to cut the attention, JR, this is fucked. This is absolutely wild. They were cutting the tension. JR and Ray started singing shoe fly pie. Shoes fly pie. It's like this song I looked it up, it's really fucking weird.

I was like, what even is that? It's like a, it's almost like a, like, like, like one of those songs, like a, like a Shabop. Like a Shabop? I don't know, I'm not a good writer. I need to look this up now. It's very, it's like old tiny, like what you would play

at the Gilmore Girl stance a long thing. At the like dance marathon. Yeah, exactly. So Billy was like this made him feel better. He was starting to smile. It made my fucking stomach turn. And Pete actually got wicked pissed off at them for singing. And was like, shut the fuck up.

Like I don't want you to sing right now. Damn. He wanted to get the hell out of Derry and as far away from the condo as he possibly could. So Pam, she got back home to Derry around 10, 30 PM once everything was done. She of course pretended to be shocked and horrified when she found Greg's body.

Neighbors could hear her screams from several houses away, they said. And it was followed by her yelling, help my husband, my husband. Wow. You piece of shit. An actual monster. So she ran to the house next door and she said,

something was wrong with her husband and that they needed to call 911. Like, you know that he's dead. You just found him lying in a pool of his own blood at the bottom of your stairs. Now, Derry knew New Hampshire, at the time, had a super low crime rate. And homicides were like super out of the ordinary. So I actually to drive that point home even further, before Greg's murder,

there had been zero murders in the town that year. Oh, damn. Zero. Wow. Someone officers arrived and they found Greg lying face down, just beyond the front door, still dressed in his gray suit and coat, they were shocked. Yeah. Now, by the time they got there, his skin had been bruised up completely, and there was a bit of blood coming from his nose. One of the officers checked for a pulse, but obviously they weren't able to find one. And another neighbor who was actually a medical

assistant offered to do CPR because at this point, they're not seeing that he's been like shot. but obviously they weren't able to find one. And another neighbor who was actually a medical assistant offered to do CPR because at this point, they're not seeing that he's been like shot. Yeah. So the officer that hadn't found a pulse rolled Greg over onto his back and that was when they saw the bullet hole on the top of his head. And they were like, yes, CPR is not necessary anymore.

So to the responding officers, the scene seemed like what Pam had hoped it would. Like Greg came home, found somebody robbing his house and had been killed by the intruders. Yeah. Outside the condo, it was absolute chaos because Pam's screams had drawn all the neighbors outside. Dozens of people were just crowding around the area outside of the house. So Pam asked that somebody called Judy and Bill, who remember lived like five minutes away in the same complex. Yep. And whoever called them just said that Greg was quote, very, very sick. Are you kidding me? So they rush over there thinking like, oh no, like he doesn't

have a stomach bug like, yeah, like what's going on? No. So they threw on their coats over their pajamas and they ran over. but they got stopped by the police at the perimeter of the scene. And Judy was like, what the fuck is going on? And Pam just told her, I don't know. I was at school. There was a meeting, like being super theatrical like over the top, but giving nothing.

Of course. Luckily, she was interrupted, but also not luckily. The front door opened and an officer stepped out of the house, and it was then that Greg's parents saw his body lying on the floor. Oh my God. And the officer came out and told them we can't help him. He's already dead. So the case called for the presence of the dairy police captain, who at the time was

Captain Lauren Jackson. Now he arrived to the scene after it had already been cleared completely. He was a veteran detective, luckily. Like, thank goodness we have somebody who knows what we're doing here. Seriously. He had 24 years on the job between Massachusetts and New Hampshire, and he had seen every kind of crime you could possibly see. Yeah.

Now, the other officers on the scene obviously weren't a season. So, he started taking over and just divvying out tasks. He wanted to be sure that everything was properly documented and that all the evidence was collected and catalogued correctly. That was like a big thing for him, which it always should be. Yeah. Now some officers went out to check the fields beyond the complex in and just about a hundred yards from the smarts back deck area, Sergeant Vincent Byron found a large carving knife stuck into the ground. Oh, shit.

They left the knife back. They left that. They left the knife back. Why? I'm glad they did, but like Jesus. I think they must have dropped it on the way, as all I can think of. Wow.

But then actually, no, because it was stuck in the ground. That's what I mean. Like, why would they shove it into the ground. That's what I mean. Why would they shove it into the ground and run? I don't know if they just had too much between the valuables that they had stolen. Like drop a valuable, my friends. Right. You would think so.

Not the actual other murder weapons, seriously. So they found the knife in the ground out there, but then a few feet away from that sergeant there found pieces of cardboard and plastic from Pam's jewelry box. So he was like, what the fuck happened here? Yeah. So by 2.30 that morning, the dairy police got joined by the New Hampshire State Police Major Crime Unit, who went over the house a second time,

like it had already been totally cleared and then they were like, we're gonna clear it even further. Yeah. Took more photos, got more evidence, and took notes on literally everything. Then another group of officers started going around to the neighbors who were like, really overall very unhelpful, they hadn't seen much.

Yeah. Or heard much, but it's like whatever. So according to almost everybody they talked to, Greg was quote, a very private individual. Someone they never really got to know during the 18 months he and his wife had lived in Derry. See, that's why it's important to know your neighbors. My friends. My neighbors never talked to me. My neighbors and I had a barbecue the other night or no last night and it was, it was wonderful. I love that. It's delightful. Yeah, they'll be on the lookout for like any weird

shit. That's the thing, like know your neighbors because like it's, it's a good thing to get to be friends with your neighbors because then they're on your that shit. See's, it's a good thing to get to be friends with your neighbors because then they're on you, that shit. So you like, it takes a village, my friends, and if everyone's looking out for each other, no shit gets past you. I was just thinking about it, and my neighbors don't really talk to me,

but they talk to Drew. What do you think that means? I don't know what that means, that's weird. I'm offended. I just think I'm like, you know what, if you have a chance to have like a tight little neighborhood, if you happen to be in there, do it, man.

Yeah. Because everybody's on that text chain and everybody's like, what the fuck was that car? Who say, who's, did you hear that noise? Like everyone's on it, I love it. There's like an app now too, that you can get it, like keep in touch with your neighbors. And like, or even like people like beyond your neighbor's

like our like enclosed proximity. I mean, my neighbors just have a text chain. I think it's called like next door or something. Yeah, I think you're right. Drew has it, maybe that's why like in close proximity. I mean, my neighbors just have a text chain. I think it's called like next door or something. Yeah, I think you're right. Drew has it. Maybe that's why they talked to him. Yeah, I think we just have a text chain and as soon as like I think like somebody on an outside street got their car broken into.

Oh shit. Everyone fucking knew that. By the morning, everyone was checking each other's cars if you weren't at your house. Like, oh, I love it. It was great. That's ideal. I was like, nay, burst. Nay, burst. Love it. It was great. That's ideal. I was like, neighbors.

I love it. Well, this was also a time, which is crazy to think about before cameras. Yeah, exactly. Before people had doorbell cameras. So it's even more important back then. Like, that's why it is very helpful if your neighbors can be like, yeah, we know that person exactly. But I can be on the lookout for like something weird is happening over there.

I might step in. Exactly. If you don't know your neighbors, they're not going to feel comfortable doing that. Exactly. Which it sucks that this was a case where they just, they didn't know each other well. They just didn't communicate. And not for any reason, it doesn't sound like it just seems like it didn't happen, which 100% it doesn't happen a lot of times. And I also can make it happen, try to.

I think this was kind of more of a time where you minded your own business. Yeah, that's true. You know what I mean? So Pam, she was just as unhelpful to the investigators, but obviously more pointedly. She explained that she got home, she found Greg on the floor and she said, quote, having watched television shows like Rescue 911, she decided against touching the body and instead just started screaming for help. Okay, it's like okay, like what? Why did you have to mention that? Sorry, that's a fruit flying message.

I do remember how, what a chokehold that show had on all of us though. Rescue 911, I don't think I ever watched that. No, I think it was before your time. It was Rescue 911 and unsolved mysteries were like back to back. Unsolved mysteries. Rescue 911 was intense. Really? Yeah, it mom was intense. Really? Yeah, it was very intense.

I nearly created nimon mom calls, but you heard that nimon mom call. It was like our first venture into true crime, I believe. Yeah. Mine was unsolved mysteries and forensic files. Yeah. A good one. A good one.

So obviously, we all say all the time how people are going to react differently to trauma and grief. But there was something off about Pam's behavior in the minds of the detectives. She, I think they kind of tried to put it in the back of their minds the more and more they got through the investigation, but it was still there. Yeah, you observe, you look at it and say,

okay, everyone grieves differently. But when compiled upon other evidence, you go, okay, that is a little strange. Right, you just hold it in the back of your head and just put it together with the other events. And then you find like the supporting things exactly together. Yeah. So she was super calm and super composed, which was not really what anybody expected from a woman who had just found her husband murdered in their home a few hours earlier. Yeah. But you know, okay, everybody's different. So yeah, different strokes for different folks.

In this case, not so much. Not so much. To Detective Barry Chairwicks, I believe is how you say it, Pam seemed more anxious than sad or upset. She was nervous and he noticed that her eyes would dart around the room at different times throughout the interview, which is so telling because you know, who else's eyes do that?

Scanned of all. That's true. But anyway, to try to remind himself that, you know, people act differently in these situations, I'll dismiss it right now as just another strange reaction to death, but it's in my head. But I will note it.

So the next day, the state medical examiner confirmed that, of course, the cause of death was the single gunshot wound to the head. And the medical examiner estimated that it had occurred just an hour or two before Pam arrived home, which was correct. Now the wound itself was ragged, which suggested to the medical examiner that Greg had been shot at close range with somebody holding the gun very close to his head, which was also true. But what was strange was that there was no gunpowder residue on the wound, and there were small pieces of lead on the scalp,

which indicated that the bullet started to fragment before it struck Greg. Huh. And even stranger, there was no blood spatter at the scene like you would expect with this kind of crime. So the medical examiner was trying to figure this out like how that could have happened. And he felt like somebody had placed a pillow. Oh my God, I was literally just gonna say, they placed the pillow on his head. Exactly.

So that's what they thought. Like they took a pillow or some kind of soft thing in between Greg's head and the barrel of the gun, almost like a silencer. Or because of the whiteers. Yeah. But they couldn't find anything at the scene to support that theory.

There was no pillow with a hole through it. So, and sadly, that question would never be answered. So, I don't know if maybe they took the pillow with them and it was one of the things they threw out maybe on the way, but they never answered that question. Oh, that's interesting. It is, yeah. That's really interesting.

But I would think that's probably interesting. I'm sure that's it. Yeah, I think they were conniving enough to silence that kind of movie probably they saw in a movie or Pam saw it on rescue 9-1-1 and reiterated it and they did it. Yeah, exactly Now so obviously the cause of death was not that surprising to anybody everybody knew that Greg had been shot But what they wanted to know obviously was who killed Greg and why? So while authorities were combing through evidence Pam was super happy to entertain report had been shot. But what they wanted to know, obviously, was who killed Greg and why. So while authorities were combing through evidence, Pam was super happy to entertain reporters. Oh, I'm sure she had so many theories as to what happened.

She told the dairy news, I'm absolutely convinced someone was burglar burglarizing our house and Greg just walked in like, she was Pam. What made you think that? Yeah. Was it the robbery scene that you saw? Was it the entire robbery scene that you set up? Was it the missing valuables from your home that you orchestrated? The RANs Act House? Like, yeah.

She also told reporters that in the days since she had found her husband dead, she'd woken up at 6 a.m. every day and called the police for updates, but said that they quote, she said that quote, they haven't even sat down with everything yet.

Which is not true. And also it's like, oh, now we're gonna shit all over the police even though you know you set up this whole thing up, right? Like wow, like these police who have now, I won't have a handle of a murder. Yeah, this week, this week, this month, this year, anywhere, anytime, like that never handle murders.

Right. And like you know you did it and you're still being like, it's their fault. Like, trying to play the victim. Oh, and it wasn't like bitch. It wasn't only their fault. She was also pissed at the neighbors. Oh, of course.

She said she found it hard to believe that none of her neighbors heard anything on the night of the murder. Wow. I'm like, you orchestrated this whole thing. You are throwing everyone under the bus when you're a fucking murderer at heart. Like, are you kidding me?

Like, okay, gas lighter, McGee. Wow. She literally told reporters, quote, I've heard their stereo before and I know they've heard mine. I know a gunshot is in a common sound in Dairy New Hampshire, but I'd at least look out the window.

Wow. It's like, yeah, they didn't hear a gunshot because you probably told your boy there to fucking silence it. And it's like, you are a murderer at heart. Like, you just don't have one. You just didn't want to get in trouble for it and you thought you could get away with it

by having someone else do it. Yep. But if you're setting someone else up to get murdered by someone else, you are a murderer. Absolutely. Like, you are capable of that. Absolutely. And you're sitting here, like saying that the neighbors are at fault when you know what you did. The neighbors didn't hear anything, so fuck them. And the police aren't working on this yet, so fuck them.

Damn. Like what? Yeah, it's everybody else's fault. She's crazy. So, police captain, Lauren, was not pleased to say the least that Pam was talking to the press. Yeah. Because he had personally Pam was talking to the press. Yeah. Because he had personally told her not to. Jesus. He was like, can you stop doing that please? You think she would listen to them too to try to play along with the... Yeah, to be cooperative.

To be quite cooperative. Yes, to be quite cooperative. Instead of making waves. I don't think... So that they look at you a little heavier? I don't think she was capable of cooperating. I think it's in her her mind it was her world and she was orchestrating it how she saw fit.

Yeah, and the spotlight was on her. She couldn't help herself. Yup, she absolutely loved being in the kitchen. She had a lean in. So the investigators in Derry had been working on the case obviously, even though Pam said they weren't. And they told her sharing any kind of info with the press could be really damaging

or could even compromise their case. So they're like, why the fuck are you trying to ruin our case, lady? And Lauren, excuse me, Lauren Jackson would later say that Pam was very defensive about talking to the press. She said she didn't wanna hear anything bad about the press because she was one of them. Because remember, she wanted to work in the media.

Oh, she did work in media. And also, you're not a reporter. No. You're a volunteer for Project Self-Asteem. Yes. Humble by self. Humble by self. Fuck you, Pam.

Oi. But Jackson found her comment about being one of the press very strange. It really wasn't the only thing about her that he was gonna find strange as the investigation went on. And he still, he was like, her behavior, it's fucking weird. For instance, when she was allowed to go back to the house after the scene had been cleared, she started complaining about what a mess the investigators had made in her home.

She also stepped right onto the blood stain from where Greg's body had been found and had the audacity to ask them who was going to clean that up. Wow. Steped on the blood stain and said who's gonna clean this up? Why? You caused it. You made this.

Like you caused that. And then you're mad that we trashed your house, trying to figure out who did this. Like what the, what? Because the reason, like this is all doubly, triple equally, quadruplee fucked up because you're like, you know that she did this. Yeah.

Like she's causing all these problems and bitching and moaning when she did this. She made this all happen. Wow. And like, you're, and I don't know what it is. Like, you're gonna ask who's gonna clean this up. You orchestrated this and you can't even fucking clean it up. That's the thing.

You wanted this baby to clean it up. If this was a real, like a real thing where like her husband had come in and robbed their house and killed her husband. Yeah. Who's going to clean that up? Totally. Because like you that's I can't I never knew before like really getting into researching

true crime and all that and learning about like aftermathing and all that stuff and like 24, you know, whatever. That like victims are left. Yeah. To call someone to hire a whole team to come and clean up after their loved ones. Like you have to pay for that. Like you have to pay for it. Like a lot of people don't know that.

And it's like I never knew that until we started this podcast. And I'm sure a lot of people, when it happens to them, they don't know that. So they come back to the house and they're like, who the fuck is going to clean this? Like I can't clean this. So if that was the case, it's like, yeah, that's could be like, I don't know what's happening here. But that's the thing, knowing that she did it, it's like, you need to clean this up. You clean this up.

When she's like, Why is this? Get to work. Oh. So what was shitty was that the crime scene itself was kind of just as unhelpful as the neighbors and Pam. Like they were hitting a lot of dead ends here. Obviously it was obvious that somebody had ransacked the house, but it didn't seem like your regular robbery.

So they're like, they're confused here because they're like, yeah, it seems like this happened, but it didn't seem like your regular robbery. So they're like, they're confused here. Because they're like, yeah, it seems like this happened, but it's awful little bit. Yeah, it's like disorganized. Actually, it's strangely organized. They felt like what? Like it seems like there's differences in the ways that some areas were trashed. Like some were more organized than others.

And so the investigators theorized that there were two intruders. I was going to say, because I would think that would be like multiple people right off the bat, exactly. There were also some more strange tidbits on the first floor of the home. Greg's ring and his car keys were found underneath his body and his wallet, which still had all his credit cards tucked, was tucked safely away. It was found by his legs. So they're like, they didn't steal his car.

They didn't take his ring and his wallet full of his credit cards is right here. And why do they have him take off the ring? I don't know. Like because my initial thought was that, my initial thought with that, and maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, was that that was an order from Pam as proof that they had done it. I could see that. They were supposed to bring that ring back.

That's what I assumed was the whole thing. I thought she was like, bring me that ring, so I know you actually did it. Well, she would have known they actually did it when she got home, so that, like, she wouldn't have had to do that. I forgot that they didn't meet before that. Like they didn't meet before she went home. No, she just got the car, they got the car where she had parked it, and then the whole thing was that she was going to come home and find this. Okay, that makes more sense. So what I think with the ring is that they probably, I think Billy

probably was like take it off, or Pete said take it off because like, you know, he's fucking Pam now. Yeah, that's true. And then I think maybe in the haste of everything, they forgot to take the ring. Yeah, because it's like, why did you do that? Because I think they had fully planned on taking that ring. They must have. They must have. They just were stupid. Because like, that's like, what a last humiliation for Greg. Right. To make him remove that ring and then to leave it. It's like, wow, so you just did that just to do that. Like that's even more fucked up. It's adding insult to him. Yeah.

It's just like that's really, that's really gross. Mm-hmm. Well, it's fucked. But so that's the thing. Investigators are like, okay, so there's clearly two intruders, but like they both suck. Like that's weird. Yeah. What the hell? Very strange.

And they started thinking, if somebody was going into a home to take everything of value, so much so that they were willing to commit a murder in the middle of it, why wouldn't they take the most valuable things? Yeah. That's weird. Even the car.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. So the investigators, they still felt like the theory of a robbery gone wrong wasn't a bad one, but it had other flaws even beyond the valuables left behind. Yeah, so more nuanced. It was going to start kind of like falling by the wayside, the whole theory. Again, why would these robbers, even if they weren't the most experienced, choose a time

to rob a densely populated condo when everyone was home and awake? Yeah. That was another thing that they were like, why would they do that? And they also reasoned that most burglars, even petty thieves, they don't usually bring along a firearm and they're usually not willing to kill someone. Yeah, they just want to steal shit and leave. Mm-hmm.

And for some reason, they did go against all of that and kill someone again. Why wouldn't they take the most valuable things when they had already gone that far? Yeah, exactly. That's the thing, you better take all the valuable shit in there. Right. So between Pam's strange behavior, obvious enjoyment of the spotlight, and the very many unusual aspects of their crime scene, some think about this murder wasn't adding

up to them. Yeah. But they were struggling because it wasn't adding up, but then it wasn't leading them in the direction of the truth. Yeah. Now, back to Pam. As far as she knew, she had planned every aspect of Greg's murder perfectly.

And she almost did. Or just scary. Yeah. But what she didn't plan for was the impulsive stupidity of teenagers. Oh, yes. Because in the months before the murder, Billy had told a good number of his friends

about his sexual relationship with Pam. And most of the time, they weren't even doing much to hide their affair in public. And in the weeks they had spent planning the murder, Billy had told those same friends the plot to kill Pam's husband so that they could be together. And he told most of those friends that what he believed to be true based on what Pam had told him,

Greg was abusive toward her. He was gonna be the hero that saved her. So he's just spilling the beans left right everywhere. Of course he is. He's a child. Yeah. And as we know, some of the people who he told about the plan had become participants.

Yeah. And the ones who didn't, they just kind of thought he was bluffing and trying to seem tough. Oh my God. Which like, we've been there, we've done that. Yeah, everybody's tough. But the day after the murder,

Billy and his friends were back in school. My God. They just go back to high school. They just went back to high school. I'm pretty sure it was like their junior year. Oh my God. So, and before his first class even started, Billy was telling his friend, Sal Parks about what he'd done immediately.

Now, Billy and Sal had talked about the murder plot a number of times before that day. Billy had even shown Sal sketches of the condo's floor plan that he made based on Pam's description. Wow. But for some reason, Sal never thought Billy was going to go through with it. Guys. Guys, you know.

I can't. You know. But that morning, when Sal asked Billy if he had gone through with the plan, Billy nervously confirmed that yup, they'd killed him the night before. Oh my God. Now later that day, Billy bought Sal lunch with the money that he'd stolen from Greg's wallet. Just to prove it to him.

Oh, fuck up. And by the end of that afternoon, he had told pretty much almost all of his friends the gnarly details about what had happened. Now, Sal was worried now that he knew all the details. He could be considered an accomplice. So he was like, I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut about this entire thing.

Like, I'm not gonna say anything. I'm still like reeling about him buying lunch with Greg's money. With Greg's money. Yep, this is just wild. Now, just like Billy Cecilia Pierce, she knew this whole thing had happened at this point, and she had been an instrumental part of being a part of it, playing it.

So she found it difficult to keep what she knew to herself. And on the morning of the murder, Pam had confided in Cecilia that the boys were gonna follow through the plan that night. So the next day, a guidance counselor came up to Cecilia because she knew that Cecilia had been close with Pam. She called her into a meeting and let her know what had happened to Pam's husband.

Oh my God. So Cecilia did her best to fake shock, but later that night when she got to her shift up Papagenos, the secret was becoming too overwhelming for her. And she ended up confiding in a coworker about it. She told her coworker Cindy but what had happened to Greg. And Cindy said, didn't you tell me about a friend that was planning on having their husband killed?

Oh my God. And Cecilia said, oh shit, I forgot and I had told you that. Couldn't even keep track of the people they had told. What? I forgot that I had shit. Oh my gosh, I told you What? I forgot that I shit. Oh my gosh, I told you that. I forgot that I told you that. Oh my God.

Also, imagine eating a fucking pizza that those two women had made for you and that conversation happened above your glorious pizza. I would not be happy. I'm a Papa Geno's is not my faith. Oh, I hate Papa Geno. Well, it's the big thing. Sorry, I was finding you can eat it all you want.

I'm no hate to Papa Geno's. I mean, a lot of people love Papa Geno's. But, oh, Papagena. Well, it's the big time. Sorry, I was finding you can eat it all you want. I'm no hate to Papagena. I mean, a lot of people love Papagena. But, oh, yeah. Anyways, so Cecilia explained the rest of the story to Cindy. And Cindy suggested it would be best to stay out of it entirely. She was like, I don't think you need to tell more people about this.

I think you need to shut your mouth. Yeah. She basically said that if Cecilia had told her about it, then other people could definitely find that out. And one of them might go to the police so she should shut her fucking mouth. Oh my God. But at the same time, Cindy there

apparently didn't take her own advice. And a couple weeks later, she had some friends over her apartment for drinks and she told all of them the entire story about Pam Billion Cecilia. So there were two women there, finally some people with sense in this fucking town, and they were absolutely shocked. So one of them, 39-year-old Louise Coleman,

went home and called the police. Finally, finally, finally, somebody has contacted the appropriate people in this situation. Finally, someone calls the police and says, Jesus. Jesus, Jesus, Christ. She would later tell a jury, Louise there, quote, someone was killed and that bothered me. To hear what I had heard, I figured any little bit was gonna help them because at that point, police didn't know much of anything. Like I told them, it's hearsay, if it helps, it helps.

If it don't, it don't. But I feel like I did my civic duty. Which I'm like, yes, Louise, you did. Okay, thank you. Pat Pat, Louise. No, like the bad game of telephone, it was though. Louise Coleman's tip to the dairy police got a lot of the facts wrong. But luckily, it was still enough to point investigators towards Cecilia Pierce.

Detective Cherwick's, uh, uh, Cherwick, excuse me, paid a visit to Cecilia and joined by her parents, they sat down for a formal interview. And Cecilia told the detective that, yep, she did no Pam. She met her through an internship in the media center, but she said, I know nothing about the murder. I insist I know absolutely nothing. So then Pam is approached and she told detectives, oh my gosh, Cecilia would not have anything

to do with this. Of course not. It's like yeah, but what about you? Yeah. But for her part, she seemed Pam there, pretty unconcerned about the fact that investigators were circling closer and closer to her and her group of fucking teenage misfits that she put together. Yeah, it's like no one noticed this shit. No one noticed it. And now even as they're encroaching upon them, she's not worried about it. No. So by mid-May, she had gotten a large sum from Greg's life insurance,

and she seemed in a hurry to spend it. She bought clothes and shoes for Cecilia in an obvious to all of us attempt to buy her silence. Yep. Then she went electronic shopping with billion his friends. My God. She also used some of the money to buy herself a new car. She put down the first and last month's rent

on a condo in Hampton closer to Billy. Excuse me. This is closer to Billy's mother's house. I was just going to say this is so disgusting. Vocked. So she was doing her best to reign in this group of teens. And for the most part, she was successful. Cecilia would later say, she just really was convinced

that no one was going to listen to the boys over an adult. Like she thought she was gonna have everybody hook on the outspanker. Of course. But what wasn't in her control was the people that the kids had already confessed to. And Louise Coleman's tip had pointed the investigators in the right direction.

But it would be a tip from one of the few honest teams in the circle that would finally break the case. So remember, Ralph Welch raised cousin. So Ray was the one that drove the car. And Ralph had nothing to do with it. He was just staying at JR's house. He had a hurry about this. So he had known about Pam and Billy's relationship

since it started, Ralph there. He was, like I just said, one of the kids living in the household, and since he was a close friend of JR and Billy, he was privy to all the information about what had been going on, but he was just trying to keep his head down and stay out of any trouble. He had gotten into trouble before, and he was trying to stay on a narrow path.

So he heard about the murder and about his friends' involvement, but he was still having trouble believing that they had anything to do with it. He was like, you guys are fucked like you didn't do this. But by early June, all the talk and boasting from JR Billy and Ray had started to get to him and all the rumors about Billy killing Greg started to seem more likely than they had to him before. So he confronted them. He said, did you do this? And at first, they denied any involvement, but eventually they told him the whole story thinking he wasn't gonna tell anybody.

So by the time they finished telling the story though, he pretty much told them he didn't know what he was gonna do, but it wasn't something he was gonna keep to himself. Ooh. He was like, you guys fucked up here. Like I, you should not be honest. Like she's gonna go Ooh. He was like, you guys fucked up here. Yeah. You should have told me. You should have told me honestly.

Like, shit's gonna go down. He's like, I don't know exactly what I'm gonna do, but I'm gonna do something. I'm gonna do something though. So the next day, Ralph tried to make Pete Randall leave the last time house where he was staying. Okay. So like, two guys here getting in a fight.

Yeah. So they started fighting even more and it got physical. Okay. They beat the shit out of each other for a few minutes. Pete ended up storming off with JR and Ralph, or excuse me, with JR. And Ralph went inside the house. Where JR's mom wanted to know why he was all fucked up.

Like, he obviously looked like he'd been in a fight. Yeah. And Ralph just blurted out to her. They used Vance's gun to kill someone. Vance's JR's dad. Oh Vance is J.R.s dad. So Diane, the mother obviously, she had a few follow-up questions. And once Ralph had gotten through the whole story, including the part where J.R. stole one of his gun's dads to kill Greg, Vance Jr.'s father, so J.R.'s father, sorry, Vance J, JR's father, went to check his gun collection.

There's a lot of players here. Okay. So sure enough, he found that his 38 revolver had been cleaned and he was not the one to have cleaned it. So he took the gun straight to the Seabrack police and the rest of the story slowly started to fall into place. Now remember,

his son stole this gun and this dad, I have to say like he did, like that's really heroic and like what a fucking Sophie's choice to make there. Absolutely. Like oh my god, my kid might be involved in killing somebody, but I have to take this information to the police. Yes, like you can't just ignore it and hope it goes away.

He's one of the heroes in this story. Yeah, I mean we've seen instances where that's hot. We have. So as soon as she where the police were looking for her son Ray Fowler's mother dragged him to the police department. Another hero here. There you go. And once he was there, he wasted no time telling the detectives the entire story. He didn't spare any details, but of course, he passed all the blame on his friends.

And he said he had only gone along for the ride. He had no idea they were gonna kill someone. He knew everything. Um, the survey says, yeah, ding-ding-ding-ing, no. So when they learned that Ralph Fully intended to go to the police, the other boys fled to Connecticut and Pete's father's car.

They planned to continue driving South, possibly to Mexico or to South America. But Pete called home to let his mom know they were safe and his dad got on the phone and he didn't know about the murder yet. But he was like, why the fuck did you steal my car and you better turn it right the fuck around right now? Yeah, hell yeah.

Pete's dad was not the kind of guy you wanted to go against. So they all turned around and headed back to Seabrook because Daddy said, bring my car back home. Oh my yeah. Pete's dad was not the kind of guy you wanted to go against. So they all turned around and headed back to Seabrook because daddy said bring my car back home. Oh my God. Like, that's where we're at, you got to see age group. We're at the lack of frontal limb development is really highlighted here. They thought, oh yeah, I'll just steal my dad's car

and drive it to Mexico and he won't notice. I'm sorry, what? I'm sorry, what? Sorry, what? So once they got back home, each of the boys struggled to tell their parents what had happened. They were obviously leaving out all kinds of important details.

They were using pseudonyms here and there, and they were peppering the story with lies to minimize their own involvement. Now, Vance listened to his son's version of the events, and even though he still didn't understand what had actually happened, or how JR had even gotten himself involved in this, he went back to the Seabrook Police Department to let the detectives know that it seemed like all of the boys were involved

in this murder in one way or the other, including his own son. That's a hard hit. So, on the morning of June 11, 1990, a clerk from the dairy police department arrived in Seabrook, carrying warrants for the arrest of Billy, Pete, Ray, and J.R. They knew that there are arrests around the horizon, so they all scattered, and they spent most of the day just trying to avoid the police. Oh, man. Now, meanwhile, dairy police captain Jackson wanted to have another talk with Cecilia Pierce. I think he saw that she was a bit of a little bit. Oh, yeah. 100 percent. He saw that as a weak point. So he with Cecilia Pierce. I think he saw that she was a bit of a weak point. Oh, yeah.

100% he saw that as a weak point. So he called Cecilia's mother, and Cecilia's mother said she was out for the day, but she was gonna try to track her down. She's like, oh fuck, what are we involved in here? Yeah. So Mrs. Eaton, that Cecilia's mother, she figured her daughter would actually be at Pam's house

because that's how much time they were spending together. That's so weird, ma'am. I don't know if Cecilia's mom didn't realize that Pam was like an authority figure and maybe just thought she was like an older friend because she's not that much older than Cecilia. That's true. That's very true. I think she just didn't have all the facts. Yeah, no, I'm like, no hate to like her parents.

Oh, no. Not even thinking about it. It's just wild. But when you think about it afterwards, you're like, oh God, oh, this is relationship with like too much. So Pam picks up the phone and she was like, oh, Cecilia actually just left, but let me go collect her and I'll bring her to the police. But at that point Mrs. Eaton had had it up to here

officially. Oh, officially. She was like, I am real fucking tired of this strange hold that you seem to have over my daughter. Stay out of it and I will track down my own daughter. So later, she found Cecilia at a friend's house and Miss Eaton called Pam and was like, just so you know, we're going to the police station.

Now, Pam yelled at Miss Isetan on the phone and said, don't take her over until I get there. Let me go with you and we can all go together. I am a victim here. I have a right to know everything that the police know and they're not telling me anything. I'm getting tired of being treated this way and I wanna know what's going on.

Oh man. Mama, you're a murderer. Oh man. Like girly girl. She is reckless. Also who the fuck do you think you are yelling at Mrs. Eaton? Oh, I hate it. So obviously, she's trying to stay on top of things

and she wants to make sure Cecilia's not gonna turn up her. Yeah. But Pam was telling the truth a little bit there. The dairy police had actually stopped giving her any information about this case. Of course they did. Because she kept going to the press every time they gave her an update.

So they were like, okay, if you want to paint us this way, we'll act this way. Oh, I hate it. So in that moment, Mrs. Eaton didn't care about Pam Smart or her relationship with the dairy police. She was like, if you want to meet us at the station, meet us at the station, but we're going there now. Yeah. She's like, I don't know, I don't have time for this. So they get to the station. Cecilia continues to insist to the police that she knows nothing about the murders. She tried to even seem like she was disinterested in being there. Now Captain Jackson realized that Cecilia wasn't really grasping

the severity of the situation she was involved in. Oh, yeah. So he was like, you know what, let me fucking scare her. So he starts making threats of charging her with interfering with the investigation. He's like, you want to play that game? Let's go. But at that point, Cecilia's play that game? Let's go.

But at that point, Cecilia's mom didn't know that's where this was headed, so she put a stop to the interview. She was like, no, we're done here. Yeah. Now in a private conversation with Cecilia's mother, Jackson explained that he was simply playing bad cop. He was just trying to get Cecilia to say what she knew.

Yeah, of course. And he was like, we know that she doesn't have anything to do with the murder. So we don't think she does, or the murder, excuse me. So Cecilia's mom was like, we know that she doesn't have anything to do with the murder. So we don't think she does or the murder, excuse me. So Cecilia's mom was like, yep, I get it. I still feel like she's gone through enough tonight and we're not really going to get anywhere here. So I will talk to her at home and try to get out the truth and I'll, like, I'll get back to you. So they were like, okay.

Yeah. And I think they knew like they weren't going to get very far at that point. But on their way out of the station, Pam had been sitting there at the whole time waiting for them at the station and she went right up to them and was like, what's going on? I need to know everything.

My God, she's like, she just is, she doesn't give a shit. She's like a fly attracted to a big pile of shit. She can't stay away. Oh, so Cecilia was like, no, nothing's going on. They asked me the same questions that they did before, but she said, like, don't worry about it, basically. Yeah.

So that night, Diane, late time, late time, excuse me, JR's mother, she was like hunting them down because she knows that the police are looking for these kids. So she finds them hiding out in an arcade. Oh my God. In Salah's fairy master, she says. Oh my God. And she was able to convince them to turn themselves in.

But these mother fuckers were hiding out at an arcade. Of course they were. But it just like asks the story. And even more that you're like, oh my God, these are literal children. Of course. And they thought they could just avoid the police by playing a nice game of Pac-Man.

Yeah. What is wrong with you? You absolutely. Why? You're just gonna play pinball together to the fact that you just murdered somebody? Absolutely there. I literally can't.

That's so messed up. Quite literally cannot. Oy. But she was able to convince themselves and they turned themselves in. Oy. So news of the arrest broke a day later, but because everybody arrested at that point

was a juvenile, there weren't a lot of details available. And as far as the public was concerned, it seemed like Greg's murder had been solved. They were like, okay, they got the people that did it. Yeah, they were like, oh, fantastic. Now, investigators in Derry, on the other hand, were convinced that there was still a lot more to this story than they were being told. And literally all of them were like, yeah, Pam has something to do with it.

This random band of teenagers didn't just come up with this plan by themselves. That's the thing. It's like you really think they just came up with this and did it. And like what? What would the motive be? Exactly. That's the thing. So the day after the arrests were made, Pam called Lorde and Jackson. She can't stay away. My God.

She's like asking to be caught. Oh my God, at this point, literally. Thank you. Yes. So she calls him and she's like, can I just please have any kind of update? She said, I'm afraid I know these kids. And then she said, am I in any danger? And Jackson was like, no, Pam, you're not in danger.

She's reaching out to ask if she is in danger when she knows she set them up to kill her. Like that is like, whole other level. I don't know what she has as far as like, personality disorders go, but there's a couple in there. I won't armchair diagnosed, but yeah. The manipulative conniving gas. Like a long couple in there. I won't armchair diagnosed, but yeah, the manipulative conniving gas is going on there. It's a layered some stuff. It's a layered situation, but this is great

I fucking love this so she's like am I in any danger? And he goes He's like no Pam you're not and she goes how can you be so sure and he goes because I know and so do you Click oh shit. It's heating up in here baby. Mike dropped moments. So and he goes, because I know, and so do you. Oh! Click. Oh, shit. It's heating up, and he'll buy me. Mike dropped moments. So while the state attorney general's office

worked to get approval to try all the teens as adults, that's what they were working on, the media made their way to Seabruck, they were shoving microphones and cameras in faces of anybody even remotely involved. And then Pam was doing her absolute best to just play the devastated widow betrayed by these students she had hoped to help

and project self-esteem. Wow. And she knew that the arrest of the four boys definitely put her at risk. Like she was starting to get nervous here. But what she didn't realize was that her good old buddy, Cecilia Pierce, would actually be the biggest risk. Oh, she did. Because her remember, police still aren't done with her.

No. So in the week or so since her last interview with the police, everything around Cecilia had changed. Her friends had been arrested for murder. Pam seemed more anxious than ever to keep Cecilia close by. And worse than that, the dairy police definitely knew

that Cecilia knew something she wasn't saying. Damn. She later told reporters every night when I was in bed, I'd get up like every five minutes when I heard a car pull in, seeing if it was the police coming to get me. Oh, man. Which I'm like, honestly good,

because you knew a lot, you didn't say shit. You know that more ready for the snow. No, none of them. So the position, she started to feel like this is impossible. And she was like, I know that everything about the situation was wrong. And I've been manipulated by Pam. And she was like, in the past, she was like, oh my gosh, Pam has been nothing but good to me.

And now I'm faced with this decision to betray her. Yeah. So she's sick over it. But then at the same time, the angel on the side is like, you need to do the right thing. You need to betray Pam. Exactly. So Cecilia's unwavering loyalty to Pam obviously was a part of Pam's plan all along. That's why she spent so much time building trust between her and these kids.

And that's obviously why she was testing that loyalty in small ways leading up to the murder like we saw. But in the time since the arrests, Cecilia had noticed a very large change in Pam's behavior and she was starting to question everything she thought about their relationship. In a later interview with Hardcopy, she told them Cecilia did.

Her lover was in jail and she didn't care. How was I supposed to believe that she was actually my friend? I could hang myself knowing what I know and she'd be relieved because that's one less person who could tell. Wow. So she started to realize who Pam was. Yeah.

And then to make matters worse, everyone had been treating Cecilia so nicely since the arrest, thinking that she was a victim of this fall. Oh yeah. And she's like, fuck, I know everything. Yeah. So between the kindness of her family and friends

and Pam's increasing coldness towards Billy, Cecilia finally broke down and went to her mom and just spelled for me. Good. So obviously that got passed along to the detectives. And the detectives and dairy, they were like, great, this story confirms what we know. Yeah. Billy and Pete did the actual killing, but it was Pam behind the murder of her husband. Yeah. But the problem was now how the fuck were they going to prove that?

She wasn't there. And there's no text messages or anything like that. So they're considering their options. But ultimately, they decided that the best way to secure a conviction would be for Cecilia to get Pam on tape in the dressing to her role in the murder. And Cecilia and her mother agreed to the plan. Damn, because remember, her mother needs to sign off on this because she's a juvenile.

So Cecilia's first attempt came on June 19th when the police attached a recording device to the family's telephone. They were hoping they could record a conversation, like a phone conversation between Cecilia and Pam. So Cecilia was giving it her all. She wanted to win here. But Pam was very guarded and she was denying any romantic relationship between her and Billy because I think she was like they could bug our phones. So she was a little ahead. But at the same time, she was also dodging Cecilia's references to Greg's murder.

So in the end, the call was a bust. But in the weeks and months after the arrests, Pam, she was playing at cool in public. She was like, oh, I don't even think these boys had anything to do with Greg's death. Like, just playing it up, panning it up. Yeah. But at the same time, she obviously must have known she was a suspect. Rumors were starting to spread about Billy having an affair with her. In the back of her mind, I think she knew her plan was shit all along. Yep. Also, like, why would you be dumb enough to have teenagers do this for you? Truly.

It's only a matter of time before somebody slips up and says something. And here we go. On July 12, 1990, Cecilia Pierce took a second run at Pam in an attempt to get this confession. And this time, she was wired with a microphone and a recording device for what the New Hampshire Attorney General's office referred to as face-to-face one party intercept.

Ooh, damn. I love it. That sounds intense. It is. So that afternoon Cecilia went to Pam's office and she literally had a tape recorder running, like somewhere in her. And Pam immediately, somewhere in her, and Pam immediately

in her pocket, just followed it. I don't know. So Pam rushes over to give her a hug, which she must have been sharding herself. Yeah. Absolutely pooping her pants. Truly. And as she's hugging her, Pam's hands come dangerously close to brushing the microphone wires. Oh my god. Oh my god. she was very, very close to being caught.

I'd be like, no touchy. No touchy. But the conversation ended up being like rambling. There was a lot of weird chatting. And she kind of alluded to some involvement in the murder, but she didn't outright confess to anything. Okay. So a second meeting got set up for the next day and Cecilia got

reset up with a recording device. And this time they got what they needed. Oh, shoot. So the second recorded conversation with Pam was much more direct. There were way more details about the case. And now there was the potential for even more arrests because more names were dropped. Throughout the discussion, Pam went out of her way multiple times to insist that Cecilia would be arrested as an accessory if she went to the police. She was like, just so you know, like, you'll be in two so like, don't fuck me over. Oh, shit.

But Cecilia has already talked to the police and she knows that she's not true, so finally after what seems like hours, investigators got what they needed, and this is the little bit of it. Cecilia says, so he's not going to say that you offered to pay him, right? He's going to say he knew about it before it happened, which is the truth. And Pam says, so he's not gonna say that you offered to pay him, right? He's gonna say he knew about it before it happened, which is the truth. And Pam says, right. Well, so then I'll have to say, no, I didn't.

And then they're either gonna believe me or they're gonna believe JR 16 years old and in the slammer. And then who, me, with a professional reputation and a course that I teach, you know, that's the thing. Cecilia says, right. And Pam goes, they're gonna believe me. Wow, the confidence.

Boom. Baby, wow, the dumb confidence. It would turn out that Pam was wrong. I was gonna say, er, they didn't believe her. In correct key. On August 1st, less than two weeks after that recorded conversation with Cecilia, Pam was approached by Detective Danielle, I believe it's Pelleteer, in her office in the building inside of high school. And she'd actually already spoken with Pelleteer a few times.

So as soon as she saw him, she jumped up and was like excited to see him. And he got very theatrical with it. I can't even say I believe in. He said, well, Pam, I have some good news and I have some bad news. The good news is that we've solved the murder of your husband. Oh my God, I love it. The bad news is that you're under arrest.

Oh, he really went for it. David, I were talking about it and he was like, how many times do you think he practiced that? Oh, 100% and I can't believe him. No, absolutely. I would have been in the car ride there like talking to myself about where you mirror. I would be saying it over and over again, let's go.

Got arrested at the high school. Wow. We love to see you. Poetic justice. So Pam was stunned, but obviously she had to follow the detectives orders as she was handcuffed and let out of the building. Yeah, I mean, you don't really have a choice at that point.

And there were several other detectives from Darien Hampton out there waiting in their cars. So this was like a sting operation. Oh shit. And a journalist from Nashwa, who had shown up at the school after getting an anonymous tip, he actually snapped several photos of Pam being loaded into the back of the cruiser.

Oh, yep. I'm gonna look it up. Look it up. So the next day, August 2nd, Pam was arraigned in Derry District Court for what the prosecutor claimed was promoting or facilitating the murder of her husband. Now, in an affidavit filed with the county, the attorney general's office said that Pam, quote, aided William Flynn in the planning or commission of the murder,

and the affidavit makes it clear that it was Billy not Pam who fired the fatal shot. Okay. So the note, the news came as a shock to almost everyone outside of the investigation, especially Greg's parents who had to show up to this arrangement. Now in a statement given to the press outside the courthouse, Bill Smart, Greg's father told the reporters, she has taken a loved one from us and all I can say is if indeed she is guilty that they teach her a lesson and give her the maximum sentence that the God and Lord above us would give her. There you go. Boom.

That says it all, I think. I think so. So a week later, there was a bail hearing and Pam pleaded with the judge to please allow her to be released on bail. Girl, she said, I have been incarcerated 12 days for a crime. I did not commit. I'm only 22 years old and I'm a widow. I have gone through an immeasurable amount of pain and suffering already and I would not commit. I'm only 22 years old and I'm a widow. I have gone through an immeasurable amount of pain

and suffering already and I would ask you, if this court is worried about me afleeing, I assure you I'm going nowhere. I want to be in the courtroom to prove that I am innocent of these charges. Yeah, we totally believe you. Like girl, I hope that you take up acting in prison. You're bad at it though.

You're pretty bad at it. So her defense lawyers argued that the arrest in the entire case against her was based on innuendo hearsay, double hearsay, contradictions and statements made by an unidentified 16 year old intern who was browbeaten into saying the state's evidence was true. That's a quote. Wow. The prosecution though was led by assistant attorney general Cynthia White and she disagreed. She's like, no. She argued that Pab could be heard on the recording, making several illusions to her relationship with Billy and her role in the affair, and quote, encouraging the teenager to lie to the police

about her knowledge of the murder. Yeah, you know that whole thing. Yep. So the county superior court judge Douglas Gray luckily sided with the prosecution and ordered that pambi hold held without bail until the trial. Okay. And in his decision, Gray wrote, the words of the defendant on tape served to bolster the state's position in two ways. First, the statements are incriminating in nature,

and secondly, they lend credence to the friend's prior statement to police. Yeah. So basically, he's like, she admitted it and it makes sense. And it lines right up with what we thought happened. Yep. So of course the press covering the case

were chomping at the mother fucking bit. They overlooked some of the more important details of the case, like the fact that Pam wasn't a teacher. Yeah, but it didn't matter. The nation was captivated. It was the first time that anybody had really heard of a case with details as shocking as these ones. So people were like following super closely for every last update.

And actually fun fact here, it was the first criminal trial in America to be televised from beginning to end. Oh, shit. That's crazy. Isn't that crazy? On Monday, January 28, 1991, Billy pleaded guilty to second-degree murder, and Pete and JR pleaded guilty to a charge of being accomplices to second-degree murder, in exchange for their testifying against Pam at her trial,

which was supposed to start in early March. The pleas were another blow for Pam's defenceless. Their attempts to suppress the recorded conversation had been denied, and they were trying to contain the damage by the press, which would like, that was going to be hard to do, and by Cecilia, who already had agreed to interviews with everybody from Hampton Union to EBC News. Oh, shit. But still, her lawyers, Pam's lawyers, tried to stay confident in front of the cameras. They told reporters the claims from Cecilia and the boys were garbage, and they were confidently boasting, quote,

they're just more people to cross examine, we'll be ready to try the case. Oh, whatever. And then they said the thing that you should never say, if you're gonna lose a case, we're looking forward to it. Oh, that's not good. I just feel like that's never good.

No. So, Payam kept maintaining that she was entirely innocent of any charges. But in the seven months since her arrest, the media coverage had allowed the public and probably any jury member anywhere near here to form an opinion on the ring. People were pretty sure she was guilty.

And that was pretty much confirmed for them when a month before the trial started. Pam was indicted for attempting to solicit another inmate at the New Hampshire State Prison for women to kill Cecilia Pierce before she could testify. Oh my God! Because you know, that wouldn't look suspicious

or anything. Wow. Mama. She's reckless. Reckless. Like she is so reckless. What a monstrous human being. Literally indicted in the middle of a murder trial

for soliciting another fucking murder. She is a monstrous human being. She is a cuckoo nut man. Truly. So her trial started on March 4, 1991 in Exeter, New Hampshire. The state's case was led by assistant attorney general, Diane Nicolosi, I believe is how you say it, and Pam continued to be represented by Mark Sisti and Paul Tumi.

Now from the moment the trial began, the courtroom was like I said, packed with reporters from print and television media. And even though there had been multiple criminal trials in the past, like I said, this one was the first criminal trial to unfold on television in real time beginning to end. And the start of this trial actually coincided with the debut of court TV. Oh, shit.

This is like the first thing that happened on court TV. Oh, wow. That's crazy. That's crazy. So in her opening statement to the jury, Nicolosi laid out the facts. On the evening of May 1st, 1990, Billy Flynn acting under the direction of his love, Pam Smart drove to Dairy where he and Pete Randall murdered Greg Smart and tried to make it look like it was a robbery. And the attorney there explained to the court that Billy's motivation was Pam and his worry that if he didn't go through the murder, she was going to leave him. And then went on to explain that Pete Randall and the other boys in the getaway car they were motivated by money

Okay, now finally even though she wasn't in the room when the murder happened Nicolosi made it clear that the only reason Greg Smart was murdered by Billy and Pete was because Pam had lied manipulated and orchestrated the entire thing of course She was like Pam did this willingly, intentionally, and even when she was presented with multiple opportunities to call this off, she kept going. Double down.

She said she was determined to be free of Greg and she wanted the money from his life insurance policy, which was very easy to prove. That's what she did with it. Now, the defense attorney, Mark's, uh, sister, I believe, so I say it, said, it should be obvious. We don't agree on much. Or on the evidence they claim they're going to place before you. Like, yes, we know that. That's why we're the defense attorney. That's kind of how court works. Thank you for telling us.

Thank you so much for the obvious. Thank you for that. Now, he, uh, didn't really dispute the fact that Pam was guilty and also really didn't try to prove her innocence with his own information. Instead, he was just trying to undermine the prosecution's case, like make them doubt that. Yeah. He paid specific attention to the fact that the most damning testimony was going to come from the killer themselves or the killers. And he said that they were only testifying as part of a plea agreement for a lesser sentence, which would put doubt in the jury's mind, of course. Of course. And then he went on to tell them that what the prosecution plan to present

was going to be, quote, one of the most vile concoctions ever assembled in one courtroom in the state of New Hampshire. Wow, that's intense. They always get so theatrical in it. I was going to say that's like very exaggerated. Yeah. And then finally, he ended by saying that Gregg's murder was the sole responsibility of three, and this is a quote, quote, three cold-butted, blooded thrill killers fueled by sex, obsession, jealousy, and mental illness.

Wow. Yeah, I think you're talking about your client, brother. Yeah, I think so. So the next day, the Patrick, sorry, the state called Patrick Pete Randall as its first witness. His description of the events on the Night of Greg's Murder were so matter of a fact

and so brutal that Judge Gray actually had to stop the testimony at one point so that Greg's mother could be helped out of the group. Oh, God, that's awful. He explained, quote, I was supposed to cut his throat, but I couldn't do that because of the things he said. I just couldn't do it after that. Wow. Yep.

Now, JR, last time there, the second witness to be called by the state, confirmed the details given in the prosecution's opening statements and in Pete's testimony, but he went on to add even more details about Pam and her relationship with Billy. He told the jury, quote, she just kept asking how she should act when she discovered Greg's body. She didn't know whether to scream, run from the house or call the police. What?

We just told her to act normally. I can't believe that she was like, how do you act when someone that you're supposed to love is found murdered in your home? Hey, 16-year-old friend. How should you act? What should I do? Yeah.

Like, you can't even muster that up. Like, you didn't marry this man. You did, like, love him. You wanted to have children with him. Like, you did. Well, she didn't. He wanted kids to. You can't just, like, muster up some kind of, like,

well, anything. And he would happen if you loved someone and they got murdered. Really? Like, really, you can't. Wow. I just couldn't conjure that one. And you're a 22-year-old woman asking a asking a couple of 16 year old boys how you should act,

of course, in what world? Oh, yeah. So it was clear, obviously, that the prosecution was attempting to betray, or just like showing that Pam was a narcissistic mastermind. Yeah. And the defense was trying to do the same, but they were trying to point it as the three boys were the mastermind and crazy people. Of course. Now,

SISD pointed to the arrest reports, which included the boys laughing and singing on the way back to Seabrook after the murder. So he's like, look, they're look at how, how fucked up they were. But the press noted that neither the witnesses nor the accused quote, ever displayed sadness or remorse for the killing. So he's trying to sit there and pin the blame on one of them, but the media is like, yeah, none of them seem that upset. It doesn't seem like it to me. Now, 10 days into the trial, into Pam's trial,

Billy Flynn was finally called to testify for the prosecution. His testimony basically said the same thing that Pete and JR had already said, but he was the one with all the sensational details about his romance with Pam, of course. And her reaction in the days before and after the murder. He told the jury that Pam would later tell him

about finding Greg's body. He said, she told me she couldn't get herself to cry. Wow. Like, you have been like dating and married to this man for years and you can't muster up anything. That's cold-budded. He also told the prosecution that his testimony betrayed a promise that he had made to Pam

a month before his arrest. My guy. He said, I told her I'd never tell on her because I loved her. Wow, yikes. Wow. Now, before his questioning was over, assistant attorney general Paul Magiato asked Billy,

why did you say God forgive me before shooting Greg? And Billy answered, because I didn't want to kill Greg. I wanted to be with Pam, and that's what I had to do to be with Pam. Oh my God, that's so fucked up. It's so fucked, I actually have goosebumps. Yeah, like that truly, that's fucked up. It's like for him to say I didn't want to do that

But I did it for her and it's like whole like the amount of lives that she just straight up shattered just in every way She turned a kid into a killer. There wasn't a killer literally crazy Fucked up absolutely insane and that's I didn't want to kill Greg I just wanted to be with Pam. Yeah, that tells you everything everything like him saying those few sets of words says unmillion words So the defense on cross examination tried to make it seem like Billy had an unreciprocated obsession with Pam and he misunderstood and agreed with them and said she was the first girl I ever loved and I didn't want her to leave me. Oh my god, so it's just so sad.

It's sad all around. So the most damning evidence came in the last days of the trial when jurors finally heard the recorded conversation between Cecilia and Pam, which then was followed by testimony from Cecilia. On recording, you can hear Pam tell Cecilia, I'm afraid one day you're going to come here and you're gonna be wired by the fucking police and I'm gonna be busted. I would shit my pants. I would have sharded the biggest shard.

Yeah. Oh my God. Oh, how is she sitting there? Yeah, wired. Oh, Pam, you silly goose. So, no how close you were. Oh my God. Now across the two tapes allowed into evidence, Pam can also be heard repeatedly admitting to the affair,

manipulating Cecilia into remaining silence, and strongly alluding to the fact that she was the one behind the murder. So, on March 22, 1991 now, after 13 hours of deliberation, the jury found Pam's smart, guilty of being an accomplice to first degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder and tampering with a witness. In the end, multiple jurors would tell the press more than anything else, it was the tapes that convinced them of her guilt. One juror

told the Boston Globe, it was a very, very difficult decision for us. I didn't want it to turn out this way, but the evidence, the tapes, and the testimony proved in our minds that she was guilty. Yeah, of course. And other jurors were convinced because of Pam's demeanor and her attitude on the stand and just how she acted in the courtroom in general. According to another juror,

everyone commented that Pamela Smart looked like a statue. Her coldness was very striking. Ooh, creepy. Yeah. Now, even when she was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole, she sat there motionless with absolutely no expression

on her face. Yeah, something wrong with that one. Something real real with that one. Greg's parents, on the other hand, were sobbing with relief. Judy Smart told reporters, it feels great. She got what she deserved.

The first thing we're going to do is go to Greg's grave as a family and tell him what happened so he can rest in peace. Oh, that hurts my heart. It's so sad. Now, friends of the family and all of the boys involved were also pleased with the verdict. Karen Knight, who was actually a friend of the Flynn family, told reporters she not only took Greg's life,

she also took Billy's future, and that's not something he can ever get back. No sentence the court could put on her is high enough for the injustice that she's caused. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's so true. It really is. Now, just after sentencing, Pam was immediately sent to the New Hampshire state prison

for women to begin serving her sentence. And in early 1993, she and her attorneys of course appealed the verdict to the state Supreme Court. Basically, they argued that the publicity surrounding the case fucked the whole thing up and that Pam never had a chance to receive a fair trial. It's like, girl, she was on tape. Exactly. But they were like, and thus her constitutional rights have been violated.

So the court recognized the media coverage before and during the trial. They were like, yeah, it was unprecedented in state history, but we disagree with you. They said, both the 16th Amendment of the United States Constitution and Part 1 article 15 of New Hampshire Constitution, guarantee the right of a defendant to a trial by a fair and impartial jury. This, however, does not require that the jurors be totally

ignorant of the facts and issues involved. And these days of swift widespread and diverse methods of communication, an important case can be expected to arouse the interest of the public and the vicinity, and scarcely any of those best qualified to service jurors will not have some informed impression or opinion as to the merits of the case. Whoa.

Which, I mean, makes sense. Now, the appeal also challenged the recorded conversations though between Cecilia and Pam. Pam's attorneys claimed that the police had pressured Cecilia into consenting to the recording, and therefore it should have been excluded from evidence and not presented at the trial. Wow.

But the court also disagreed with this challenge and wrote back basically saying that Cecilia's mother was present for all of the interviews. Wow. But the court also disagreed with this challenge and wrote back basically saying that Cecilia's mother was present for all of the interviews. Yeah, no. She was able to advise Cecilia the whole way through. Yep. And Cecilia herself said that the police explained everything

to her and both she and her mother signed all the necessary consent forms. Yeah. So that was a bust. Obviously, in the end, the state Supreme Court sided with the prosecution in the appeal and the lower court's original ruling was upheld. So, in the end, Billy Flynn was sentenced to 40 years in adult prison, with a minimum

of 12 years served before he'd be eligible for parole. He ended up serving his sentence at the main state prison in Warren, Maine, and he applied for a sentence reduction in 2007, which was denied. In 2014, he got moved to a minimum security facility. And in March 2015, he did end up getting paroled and was allowed to reenter the community. Wow.

Sadly, the smart family was entirely against this. But the parole board chairwoman at the time, Donna Styrack, I believe is how you say it, commented on Billy's behavior in prison saying, I've not seen such remarkable accomplishments. That's not something we ordinarily see. So at the very least, hopefully, his frontal lobe developed a bit more

and he figured out how to make better decisions in life. And hopefully he will be a better person. Here's to hope. He pours one in all forms. Now Patrick Pete Randall received a similar sentence as Billy, and he also served his sentence at the Main State Prison. He ended up being granted parole in April of 2015 and was released into the community in June of that year.

Okay. JR Latt time who pleaded guilty to a lesser crime of being an accomplice to murder. He was sentenced to 30 years in prison to be served again at Main State prison. He was burled in 2005. Wow. And in early 2023, he actually petitioned the court to have the rest of his sentence suspended, saying, quote, he has a wife at a full-time job and is making every effort not to waste his second chance. The court actually has yet to make a decision on that. Wow. Now Ray Fowler, the cousin there,

he did eventually plead guilty to conspiracy to commit murder and attempted burglary. He got a combined sentence of 30 years, but he was paroled in 2003 after he served 11 years of that sentence. He ended up though being sent back to prison just a year later, because he violated the terms of his parole by leaving New Hampshire to go visit his girlfriend in Massachusetts. But he got released on parole again one year later

and his parole officially ended in 2013. And according to prison authorities, he quote, had no problems behaving in prison or else we wouldn't have broiled him. So there's that. OK. Cecilia appears she tried to go back to her life a new Hampshire, but because the trial was so public,

she had a really hard time. And she ended up moving not too long after the trial to Jefferson City, Missouri. And then a few years after that, she actually moved back to Seabrook and finally settled in Albany where she actually works now as a registered nurse Wow She was among the most high-profile witnesses in the case and she actually ended up getting a lot of negative attention because of all the Interviews that she did with the press and because she ended up selling her story to a production company

Oh shit in 2016 she told reporters people think I to a production company. Oh, shit. In 2016, she told reporters, people think I got $120,000. But the truth, but she said the truth was that she got $10,000. So, which I was like, yeah, $10,000 for being a spineless jellyfish. Yeah, it's like, okay, though. Now, Pam, since she's been incarcerated, she talks to the press as often as she possibly can. No, or she does. She still maintains her innocence

and she still petitions for her release. No, I believe you. No. In 2016, she told reporters, I would like to think, I would like people to think of me as a human being. I am not the caricature that people think, some evil person. No.

Request denied. Yeah, that's absolutely not. Now, as of 2023, she is currently serving her sentence and in New York prison, and she has exhausted all of her appeals. Aww. And as of February 2023, she and her lawyers are still trying to petition the state Supreme Court

to hear her appeal for a sentence reduction, but they don't seem very interested. It's a no from them. Yeah, it's a no from them. When they officially denied the request, they cited Pam's ongoing refusal to accept responsibility. And that was her last hope for a sentence reduction. Cue up the tiniest violin in the world. Now, she emailed her supporters, which um, if you're one of them, get absolutely wrecked. You're saying that the decision was, quote, unquote, political question mark.

How so question mark is me. Yeah. She said the death penalty would have been more merciful than this. Nothing will ever be enough for New Hampshire to say I'm a human being, deserving of anything more than being locked up in a cage like an animal for the rest of my entire life. of anything more than being locked up in a cage like an animal for the rest of my entire life. You orchestrated the murder of a man. Yeah, go away. And you had a sexual relationship with a minor as an adult. Yeah, you're a pedophile. So like, you did some stuff. Yeah, it's not political, girl. No, it's just Yucca's. Yep. Now, when Billy was released, Greg's older brother Rick told

the Boston herald, I think he did his time. He was at a young age, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying he shouldn't have been punished, but I want to put this behind me and I'm sure he wants to put it behind him. Wow. He went on to say that Pam should never be released.

100%. Unfortunately, Greg's mom Judy passed away less than 10 years after Greg was killed. Her son's murder absolutely destroyed her. And Greg's father too, he passed away less than 10 years after Greg was killed. Her son's murder absolutely destroyed her. And Greg's father too, he passed away in 2010. But his brother Rick told the hurled. He felt as though his father would agree with him that Billy did his time.

And he ended the interview saying, maybe someday I would like to speak to him, meaning Billy, just so I could find out how exactly what happened from someone who is there. I kind of want to know, but at the same time, I just want to move on. He took our brother and my parents' son at a young age. I would hope that by now he would realize what he did,

and I think he probably does. He's had a lot of time to think about it. Whether he'd be honest with me about that, I don't know. It wouldn't change my opinion about him getting out, but if I was him, I wouldn't try and squander it. Wow. Like what is a tough decent human being right there? It really is.

Like, wow, I don't, it just goes to show you don't know how you would feel until something like this got out. It happens to you. Yeah. Like, but mad respect to me for real. A lot of respect to Rick so much respect. And then obviously this has been been made into countless movies. Of course.

I think Nicole Kidman, playing to Pam at one point, which was a very generous compliment. Yeah, it was. Helen Hunt also played her in another movie, again, a very generous compliment. I think we should just next time hire a dumbster and put a blonde wig on it and see what happens. Or, you know, like this, it don't make another one.

Or don't make another one. Or don't make another one. Or don't make another one. Don't make another one. That's a good one. We've had enough. So yeah, that is the wild freaking case that is that's awful. And the murder of Greg Smart.

What a sad story. It really is. It really is. Because there are two people that should never have gotten married. No, never. So sad that they didn't just like get to divorce like a normal couple. That's the thing.

Because they absolutely, I think Greg was starting to go in that direction. And it's so sad. And it's so sad. And it's so sad. And it's so sad. And it's so sad. Like times where either they should have just divorced and that should have been it. Or in that moment when all those kids realized that they didn't want to do this, I wish they

had just not done it. They just stood up for what they're something inside of them was saying and just listen to it. Right, how the fuck is we crazy? How to spine? I wish anybody in this story had a spine. Would've been great. Truly.

That would've been awesome. It would've been fantastic. But as always, guys, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it. We're. But that's where the Urspineless Jellyfish who decides to murder somebody because you want to be with a lady that is kind of a pedophile don't be a dick don't be a dick don't do it

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