Morbid - Episode 478: Michele Neurauter

Episode Date: July 20, 2023

On August 28, 2017, police in Corning, NY responded to a call about “suspicious circumstances” at the home of forty-six-year-old mother of three Michele Neurauter. Upon entering the home, the scene appeared to be a fairly straightforward suicide; however, investigators were immediately suspicious that Michele Neurauter had been murdered and the scene had been staged to look like suicide. Michele’s mother, Jeanne Laundy, agreed, and she had a pretty good idea of who would have wanted to kill her daughter: Michele’s ex-husband, Lloyd Neurauter.Investigators quickly learned Michele and Lloyd Neurauter had been involved in a bitter custody battle for years, and Michele had repeatedly accused her ex-husband of trying to turn their children against her. After months of investigation, Corning detectives discovered that not only had Lloyd Neurauter succeeded in turning his children against Michele, but he had also recruited his second-oldest daughter, Karrie, to help him murder her mother.Thank you to the debonair David White for research assistance References:Kingsley, Jennifer. 2010. "Nickelodeon recognizes Corning woman's blog about parenting." Star-Gazette, June 1: 3.Moriarty, Erin. 2020. "I had to choose": Did a father brainwash his daughter to help plan her mother's murder?February 8. Accessed June 14, 2023. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michele-neurauter-murder-i-had-to-choose-did-a-father-brainwash-his-daughter-to-help-plan-to-kill-her-mother/.Murray, Jeff. 2018. "N. Brunswick man gets life, no parole, for murder." Central New Jersey Home News, December 5: A1.—. 2018. "Ex-RIT student, dad indicted in Corning slaying." Democrat and Chronicle, February 23: A2.—. 2018. "RIT student pleads not guilty to murder." Democrat and Chronicle, Janaury 27: A15.—. 2018. "DA: Murder suspect tried to bribe witness." Star-Gazette, April 13: A1.—. 2018. "Man pleads guilty to killing wife in Corning." Star-Gazette, October 13: A1.—. 2018. "Murder suspect pleads guilty." Star-Gazette, March 9: A1.—. 2018. "Two charged with murder." Star-Gazette, January 26: A1.NBC. 2019. Dateline: The Ultimatum. New York.Smith, Jeff. 2020. "Karrie Neurauter, manipulated into helping kill mother, released from prison." The Corning Leader, Janaury 30.Teurfs, Kathryne. 2020. Daughter who pleaded guilty to helping her father plan to kill her mother released from prison. February 7. Accessed June 15, 2023. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/karrie-neurauter-daughter-who-pleaded-guilty-to-helping-her-father-kill-her-mother-released-from-prison/.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening to a Moorbed Network podcast. Hey Weirdos, I'm Alina. I'm Ash. And this is Moorbed. And it's morbid in the morning. We've been doing a lot of morbid in the afternoon. Ooh, I liked that. Yeah, so it's kind of like the song where it's like, it's annoying in the afternoon. You're actually the sias of the noon.

I love that. I do know that. You can, because he did. See you too. You feel like so, God. I love the emo of it all. It's so fun. I love it.

One time I was going to go to an emo night, but then it got ruined. Yay. Yay. Also, that was panic of the disco, right? Um, I think maybe, but I'm doubting it now. I think it is. The light in the after. Yup, the eyes of the size of the moon.

The cat, because you did say you did. I love that. You look so gyaad. Feel it. Just the way that you shod. Shod. And it's annoying. Yeah, I'm pretty good. But no it. Just the way that you shod. Shod. When it's annoying. The afternoon.

But no, it's the morning. Here we are. It's like nine in the morning. Oh, damn it, it's not. It's not, but it would have been great if it was. I'm not, John. We should just say it is. Because I don't know why this comes out,

but it'll be nine in the afternoon somewhere. There's like two weeks for one thing. Ije. Nai. I will never understand it. It's, two weeks for one thing. Aji. Naew. I will never understand it. It's I feel like those, the like door guards in Labyrinth when he's like, I don't know. I never understood it.

That's literally my permanent state of being. Yeah, honestly saying that was also a really good impression. Sorry. I'm like holding in a little bit of a mouth, noise right now. I just had some alkycelser. Ash is feeling a little heart, heart burny. Oh, you turned 27 and then you just die.

It all goes to hell, honestly. I woke up early and I got on my treadmill action this morning, but then that moved things around. It moves it all around, it makes it burn. Yeah, and then I had like a nice, like health breakfast, but then I did see that you had many muffins for your children. And I said, ooh, I happen to be one of those children. So I ate a nice health breakfast, but then I did see that you had many muffins for your children, and I said, ooh, I happen to be one of those children.

So I ate a little mini muffin, and you would have thought that I ate a blazing bowl of fire. You would have thought. But now I had alkysalter, so alkysalter for me works right away. That's good. Have you, you've had Harper and Wright? I had it when I was pregnant a little bit.

Can you have alkysalter when you're pregnant? I'm pretty sure you can. I just did thumbs. See, thumbs is, it like redusses. Oh yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a thing. Yeah, but it's, it wasn't bad enough when I was pregnant that I think it bothered me. I think I also ate bread and it helped.

Eating bread does help. And excuse me, bread really. Yeah, mea, please have. Bread. But yeah, here we are. Here we are. So, um, yeah, I have a really sad case today, obviously, because, you know, you're listening to morbid. Yeah, that's what you came for. That's what you came for. This one is crazy, and I, I don't want to like give too much away. So I'm just going to kind of do like a cold start if that's cool with you. I'm

fine with that. Alright, so we're going to be talking about the murder of Michelle Nyrider today. And she was previously Michelle Laundy. And she met her husband Lloyd Nyrider in 18, nope, in 1980. Oh, I'm like, this is an old one. Yeah, only you do those. Yeah. They met in 1989. Okay, which, you know, that's old time, yeah, I guess. All right. No, I'm just kidding. Right. But they met when they were both in high school. She was 18 and she was in her senior year and Lloyd was two years younger. And they became friends over time. And then when Michelle graduated and she had her grad party, that's when her parents remembered

meeting Lloyd for the first time. And that's kind of when he started coming around more often. Okay. Because after the party, they started hanging out more and more, and eventually they began dating. Their relationship kind of developed pretty quickly. And even though Lloyd was much younger, like given their ages, I feel like it's kind of more pronounced at that age. I was gonna say that face in life, yeah.

Exactly. But even though he was younger, Michelle felt like he was easy to talk to, he was smart, and their conversations were never easy to talk to. He was smart, and their conversations were never boring. And that was something she really liked about him. Yeah. Which like, we love a good conversationalist. So after Lloyd graduated from high school in 1991, they did get married, and then they went off to college. Well, he went off to college, the same one as Michelle. She had already gone. She was already there. Yes, but now he went into engineering

and Michelle ended up getting her degree in English. And after college, they continued on the fast track. And within a year of graduating, Michelle was pregnant with their first kid. And then quickly got pregnant with their second child, another daughter. Wow. Ultimately, they went into having three daughters.

But their second daughter, they named Carrie after Michelle's sister. Oh, that's really sweet. That's adorable. Why didn't they name one of the children, Ashley? Sorry. It's fine. Can't go back. No, I'm glad you didn't name this part, I'm coming.

Now, the family moved to a pretty big farmhouse in Corning in upstate New York. Lloyd got a job working as an engineer with Corning in Corning. Wow. Good job. Good job. and upstate New York, Lloyd got a job working as an engineer with Corning and Guaranteed. Good job. Good job. Now, the move kind of seemed like a step in the right direction for the family, but also at the same time, the stress of moving

and kind of like starting a new job and everything started to bring out some of Lloyd's, you could say it less attractive character traits. Uh-oh. Michelle's mother, Jeannie, had seen some of those qualities all along though. She told reporters he was arrogant from the beginning. Oh, yeah, she never really liked Lloyd.

She wasn't into it. She wasn't into it and she also was just like, I don't really understand like what my daughter sees in this guy. Oh. Which that's never good. No. But because she and her husband really respected

their daughter, they kept their thoughts to themselves. Yes. And the thing was, they weren't the only people who felt like this. So it wasn't like, well, their standards are just stupid. Yeah. It was no other people felt this way too. Michelle's sister, Carrie, the one that her daughter was named after, she started noticing

things about Lloyd that made her a little bit nervous. Like, he had very, very high, very unreasonable expectations of his family. She said he would snap his fingers and they'd line up and they would stand there like little soldiers. Ooh, I mean that. I feel, have you ever seen a family like that though? And you're like, ooh.

Yeah, and you're just like, I don't know about this. Like, that makes me nervous. Yeah, yeah. Because that's not to me, like this, the way it's being described here, and I'm just saying, it's just my opinion. And it's not that. That's my opinion.

That's my opinion. That this feels more like a fear-based and not respect-based. Yes, I definitely think so. Like it's not just respect. I want to listen to what you have to say. It's like, I'm scared, not to. And I would know, I don't want my kids to be scared.

No, you don't want to be scared of you. I actually remember one of my first business classes. I had this wicked good professor. I forget his name though, but he said he was talking about like being in a position of power and he was like had a whole discussion with us of would you rather be feared or respected? And a lot of people thought that you had to be feared to be respected and I was like, I don't think so. That's it's not respect that comes out of fear. Exactly, fear. Those are two very different things in my opinion, exactly.

But to people a little more removed like in the outside world, Lloyd actually seemed like he was a doding father to them, the people who were removed. They saw the dad that, you know, brought his kids to ballet class, made sure they were all put together, you know? Mm-hmm. But the cracks would be apparent to anybody who was paying close enough attention to see them.

A family friend, Mina Raj, remembered, there were times when I'd call my mom and tell her that I was worried about, or that I was worried about how strict of a disciplinarian he was. It was sort of like, you never knew when he would snap. And if he decided he was mad at one of them, he would call them over yell front and center. Oh, come on. These little babes. Dude, you're not, this isn't the army. That's the thing. I'm like, you think you're in like full metal jacket, like get out of here. It's too much. So by the early to mid 2000s, the Nye Writer's facade of a happy family was definitely starting to slip. Lloyd was still working at Corning,

but his job was about to make some cuts because this was right around the time of the market craft. Yeah. So the economy was suffering. And he probably kind of resented the fact that while his career was getting a little rockier, Michelle's career had actually taken off.

Oh. Because once all three girls were in school, Michelle decided that she wanted to go back to school and pursue a graduate degree. Wow. And actually eventually, she took a job teaching English at one of the local colleges. And then a few years after that, she had this blog called the Professional Family Manager. Oh, and her blog was gaining popularity and took off. Oh wow. It actually got nominated for a national award from Nickelodeon. Oh wow. Yeah, isn't that crazy?

That's crazy. So she was doing really, really well. Yeah. And her success only seemed to add to the difficulty between her and Lloyd. Oh, is he one of those that can't handle it? That's the thing. It's like, I feel like if your partner

isn't celebrating your success with you, that's a problem. That's a big problem. In my opinion. Yeah. Because I can't imagine coming home to Drew and like telling him something exciting that happened and him being like,

it like annoying. It's like, yeah, being like annoyed by that. Yeah, no, that's not good. Like you should be able to celebrate each other when you, when one of you rises, you should be celebrating. Exactly, but that was not the case here. Michelle's mom said that Lloyd would quote,

often put her down with a smile on his face. Yeah, so I do not like Lloyd, none of us do. Now, if Michelle's parents were concerned, which it very much sounds like they were, they must have been really, really worried when Michelle slowly started cutting them out. She was kind of backing away from them. And by 2007, her relationship with them was nonexistent.

Oh, no. So the mom figured that, you know, Lloyd probably had something to do with the daughter cutting ties with the family, but of course she couldn't really know for sure. Yeah. In 2020, she told CBS News, I think that he threatened her,

either to harm the children or to harm her. Oh, jeez. And Michelle's friend Cynthia Raj would later confirm that Jeanie suspicions of Lloyd were actually spot on. She reiterated a conversation that she had with Michelle where Michelle told her, it was Lloyd that made me cut off contact with them. And then Cynthia elaborated, he didn't want her to have a place to go if she wanted to leave. Oh my god. Yeah, that's really bad. Control,

control, control. Oh. So in 2008, he didn't end up losing his job at Corning. And a few months later, he ended up getting a different job offer from a company over in New Jersey. So if he took that job, it would mean that they would have a lot more time apart, which would be good. Which would be good, which is sad because usually when you have the school with a family, the dynamic is like, no, we don't want mom or dad to take this job

for me and be away from us. But this is like no go. Kinda seemed that way. Now, so the separation to Michelle, she was like, I think this is a good idea. And I think she was kind of just desperate for time by herself to thrive. Because she was thriving,

but she was probably quietly thriving. Exactly. And being tampered down all the time. So it's like, yeah, not she was probably quietly thriving. Exactly. And being tampered down all the time. So it's like, yeah, like not wanting to piss him off. Yeah. So I think she was like, you know what? Fuck it and go for it.

So he took the job and the separation kind of proved itself to be something Lloyd wanted to make permanent. After years of being separated in 2013, he ended up filing for divorce. Wow. I didn't see that coming. That's the thing. I don't think a lot of people saw that coming. I think they figured, you know,

maybe Michelle will get to that point eventually. That's the thing I would have saw that. But nobody saw it coming from Lloyd. And especially not Michelle. She obviously knew that their marriage wasn't the happiest marriage in the world. Yeah. But she was shocked.

And her attorney, Susan Betz-Gita Beer, said, I know, I put a little phonetic in there for myself. She said Michelle was surprised that he had filed for divorce. She had done everything she thought she could to do to make him happy and the family happy. Which is sad. That is so sad. But apparently in the years that he and Michelle

spent away from one another, Lloyd decided he really didn't have a lot of use for her anymore. But what he did want was sole custody of their three daughters. And Michelle's attorney explained just how determined he was to get what he wanted. This is insane. The attorney said Lloyd was relentless in using the legal system to harass Michelle. It just never ended. There were 26 separate sets of filings post-divorce. Are you kidding me? 26. What?

Isn't that insane? Wow. So obviously, during and after the divorce, things became very bitter between them, but things were more contentious than usual with these like court dates going back and forth. Yeah.

And in his court filings, Lloyd accused Michelle of anything and everything he thought would get him full custody, especially because he didn't want to pay child support because he was in a lot of debt. Oh my God. Now Michelle, on the other hand, she accused him of trying to turn their kids against her. So not long after the divorce, she ended up selling their farmhouse, the family house that they lived in together,

and she moved into a smaller house and still in the same town of Corning. Okay. And their oldest daughter actually ended up moving to New Jersey to live with Lloyd and Carrie and then the youngest daughter stayed with Michelle. Okay. So Michelle has the middle child and the youngest child, and Lloyd has the with Michelle. Okay. So Michelle has the middle child and the youngest child, and Lloyd has the oldest child. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So the divorce and the fighting between Michelle and Lloyd obviously took a heavy toll on all of their kids. All of these girls are old enough to know what's going on. Of course. No matter what. Even if they're not, our bodies pick up on that. But everything seemed to show and carry the most of all the middle child. She was in her junior year of high school when her parents divorced.

So she was at the age where kids usually distance themselves from their parents anyway, but now she seemed to be avoiding her mom even more than usual. A family friend rose Kaluciia, I think is how you say it. She said of their relationship, it got more strain to she approached her senior year. Yeah. So by mid-2017, after just years and years and years of bitter custody fights, harassment, abuse, the whole nine, Michelle was shocked when she had a court date with Lloyd and he was supposed to show up. And this court date was going to be addressing custody of their youngest daughter. And he just didn't show up. What? And she was like, we've been doing this for like years.

It sounds like almost 10 years. Like how are you not? They divorced in 2013, now it's 2017. That's four years. Four years of this stuff. And then all of a sudden, he just doesn't show up. Like, what? It's so weird.

So she texted her lawyer saying, I'm in shock. Lloyd did not show up for the appearance for his petition for sole custody. He did not withdraw. He did not ask for an adjournment. He did not answer the court's phone calls, emails, nothing. It seemed like after all those years, he had just given up and walked away.

But Michelle's attorney was freaked out by this. She was like, something's not right. You don't fight that long and then just give up. No. And the attorney said it was very unusual. It was unthinkable really. Yeah, that would concern me a lot. Me too.

Now, since he didn't show up, the case obviously was dismissed, which left the youngest daughter in Michelle's custody. So Michelle was relieved that this seemed to mean that they were putting their worst years behind them. But at the same time, she knew who she was dealing with. Yeah, Lloyd's not going to let this go. No, she knew that he wasn't the type to back down until he got literally everything he thought he was owed.

So what I think is that she probably was relieved and kind of trying to put the worry in the back of her mind and just celebrate a small win. Yeah. You know, so by the summer of 2017, Carrie was a sophomore at the Rochester Institute of Technology, and she was living off campus. So that meant the youngest daughter was the only one still home with Michelle. Now, on the afternoon of August 28, 2017, a family friend came by the house to pick up that youngest daughter for swim practice.

Okay. And almost immediately this friend got the feeling that something was very wrong. He knocked on the door to let Michelle and her daughter know that he was there, but nobody was coming to answer. But even though through the window, he saw what looked like an adult standing in the stairway. Huh. And the thing was Michelle and her daughter, like either one of them, usually came to the door pretty quickly. So the fact that somebody was just standing there on the stairs completely motionless and like not moving and coming to the door or anything was alarming. So he was freaked out and he was like, I feel like I should call 911, like I don't know what's going on here. So he did call 911. He said, got something strange happening at our friend's house. I thought I saw the mother standing

in the stairway, but she's motionless. Oh, that's weird. Very weird. So the Cornish police sergeant John McDivitt, he was the first to arrive at the scene, and he also looked through the little pane of glass in the front door, and he could see what the family friend had described to 911. He said, I could see a female laying at the bottom of the stairs. And he also said he felt like something wasn't quite right there. Well, yeah. Somebody's laying at the bottom of the stairs. That's probably not great. Definitely not good. So he entered the house and he was immediately greeted by the family dog who came running when the door was open. But when MacDivine announced his presence, nobody answered. And the figure at the bottom of the stairs did not move.

Oh yeah. He said, as I got closer, I could see there was a rope around her neck. There was no pulse. She was cold and stiff to the desk. Oh my God. It was Michelle. Oh. Now, as far as he could tell in that moment,

it looked like Michelle Nairaider had hanged herself from a rope tied to the banister at the top of the stairs. Oh my God. But more importantly, in that moment, at least, was the fact that her daughter was supposed to be home the 14 year old daughter, but now she was nowhere to be found. Oh no.

So they're freaking out. Yeah. So they quickly searched the house. There's no child in sight. There's also no suicide note, which they thought was bizarre. So while crime scene technicians processed the scene at the house,

the police began a search in the area for the youngest narrator, girl. Now, after a few hours had gone by, investigators got a call from Carrie, the middle daughter, and she said she just heard the news about her mom, and she wanted to let authorities know that actually she had her younger sister, and the younger sister was with her in Rochester.

Okay. Almost a hundred miles away from Corning. Okay. And this family friend remembers picking up the youngest daughter for swim practice. Yeah. So while the son is she a hundred miles away. So that's pretty much what investigators asked.

And through tears, Carrie explained why she had her sister. According to her, she had gone home to Corning on the afternoon of the 28th. She wanted to spend one last night with her mom before her semester started. She told detectives, when I got there, my mom started freaking out.

And she said her mom was, quote unquote, rage at her because she felt like Carrie was taking Lloyd's side in the custody hearings. Okay. So Carrie explained that as the argument went on and on, her mom was getting more and more irrational. She said, she started freaking out and screaming and she woke my little sister up. So I guess eventually the fight escalated to the point

where out of concern for the younger daughter, Carrie said she took her out of the house and they went back to Rochester for the night. Okay. So, you know, de-escalating this situation, it sounds like. Oh, you know, this is sad. Exactly. So investigators are hearing this and they're like, okay, okay. And at first glance, Michelle's death kind of appeared to investigators, like it really could just be suicide. But friends and family were like, there's no way. Like they vehemently disagreed with that. For one thing, putting the problems with Lloyd

to the side for a second, Michelle's personal life and her career were going extremely well. Her friend Cynthia said she had a great job and it was not the place in her life where she would have committed suicide after all the really difficult years she'd been through. And then her divorce lawyer agreed and said, I never believed it. She was determined to have a successful life and she did. That's why it was so shocking to me when you said that. I was like, what? Yeah, it seemed very up-

Like you're nothing here. I mean, not that we, I have a full picture of her every day to day, but it's like I mean, not that we, I have a full picture of her every day today, but it's like, seemed very sudden and out of nowhere. Right, especially when realistically she would be celebrating the fact that after all these years of fighting that he had given up, he'd given up. Seemed exactly, you know. I'm sure she knew he hadn't and that it's like a factor there. So it's like, did you know that it was going to be something

awful was going to come from this? Like he wasn't going to let it lie right but the timing just seemed weird. Well, and it doesn't seem like like it seems like she would fight for her daughters. Yeah, and she wouldn't just give up like that either. Right exactly you know exactly. So the end that's the thing other people who knew Michelle went a step further and they said, not only did they think that Michelle would not have ended her own life, but that if it was murder, they needed to look at Lloyd. Yeah.

They were like, before you sign that dotted line and decide how she went out of here to look at Lloyd. Yeah, I'm glad they said that that was like, everybody was like, aw, yeah, like no. Yeah. And that same family friend that I mentioned earlier, Rose Kaluci, how I want to say it is. She told Dateline, when asked at the scene what I thought,

my answer was, I think he did it. Wow. So that tells you something. That's the thing. When people are just off the bat, like I don't know anyone in my life. And I feel very lucky that I don't know anyone in my life that if they suddenly died, that I would be like, you got to look at this person. that I don't know anyone in my life that if they suddenly died,

that I would be like, you gotta look at this person. I don't know anyone like that. No, me, and it's like, so if I knew somebody that the first thought in my mind was, it's probably them. Right? It's probably them. And imagine having that level of concern

for a family friend or a relative. Like that's awful. And then to see it like this and be like, it ended how I was worried it was gonna end. Right, I can't imagine. So that, here's the thing. Obviously these were Michelle's friends and family speaking. And obviously it's common for those people to be shocked

when their friend or loved one maybe takes their own life. Absolutely. And it's also pretty common that they would reject the idea entirely. Of course. No, they would never be the person to do that or, you know, because it usually does come seemingly out of nowhere to everyone like around you. You know, like it's not always very obvious.

Mm-hmm. But in this case, it wasn't just the shock of unexpectedly losing Michelle. There was, as we all know at this point, a very long history of domestic abuse and violence in the family. Yup, that friends and family were well aware of and very worried about. Yeah. In fact, when Jeannie made it to Corning, that's Michelle's mother, after her daughter's death,

and she started going through Michelle's personal things, she started to get an even clearer picture of how dysfunctional Michelle and Lloyd's marriage had been. She said, I started finding court documents documents and I started finding screenshots of texts. She was just constantly abused, emotionally abused. That's so sad. It is. Now, when that was brought to the attention of the investigators looking into Michelle's

death, coupled with some bizarre findings in the autopsy, they were starting to think that maybe her friends and family could be onto something here. Because she might have been found in a manner that indicated suicide, but what struck the coroner as very strange was when he discovered a U-shaped mark around her chin that suicide by hanging just couldn't account for. Because the mark on her chin actually unsettled the police chief Jeff Spalding so much that he didn't want the label on the death to be suicide.

Wow. He was worried that it was gonna be written as suicide and something about this was telling him that it wasn't. Oh jeez. He said, it appeared as though somebody had gone behind and thrown a rope over the neck and pulled back and down causing the mark.

Oh my God. Yeah. And he said he hoped that the autopsy would confirm their suspicions. But unfortunately, when the results came back, the cause of death was listed as undecided, undetermined causation. So now they had to go back to the drawing board. And once there, there was Kerry's story to consider next to the evidence. She said that her and her mom had gotten into this big fight the night that she

died. And she claimed it was because Michelle thought that Carrie was supporting her father over her. Now investigators realized, you know, of course, it's possible that Michelle was upset about this. But again, Lloyd had just failed to show up to the court and the case was dismissed. So it kind of seemed like this huge stressor in her life was resolved. Yeah. And under those circumstances, it didn't really seem like she'd be enraged at Kerry at that point, like to get in such a big fight over this.

No, it doesn't, it doesn't add up. No. And they also were like, I don't really think she would be super hopeless about the situation either. So now they were leaning more toward the possibility that Michelle was murdered. And even though the evidence was very, very circumstantial at that point, it did strongly suggest that her ex-husband Lloyd was worth looking into. But there was a problem with the theory that he had something to do with it.

He had a pretty strong alibi. When police discovered Michelle's body, he was nearly 3,000 miles away at a job interview in California. Oh, however, with that being said, he had been in New York around the time that Michelle had been killed. Oh, I was going to New York around the time that Michelle had been killed. Oh, I was gonna ask.

I was gonna ask. I was gonna ask. I got to California after that. So you just got there quick. Uh-huh. Okay. Real quick. According to Carrie, her father had helped her move

into her new apartment on August 26th. And then he stayed in a hotel room that night and left for California on the 27th and had been there ever since. Okay. But actually, when investigators called to tell him about Michelle, he was still in California. And once he was informed that she had died, he flew right back to New York. And the first thing he did was go to the, I think it's Stubin County Family Court to

quote, turn off his child support and maintenance payments. Yeah, you got to do that real quick. It was the first thing he did. It's like, do you want to check in with any of your children? Yeah. So, like, their mother was just, I mean, just died. Yeah. Like, what?

No. Now, as he was leaving that courthouse that day, he ran into courting police detective James Wulpy, and James was like, hey, like, you want a chat? And weirdly, Lloyd seemed pretty eager to talk about Michelle's death, really. They sat down in Detective Wolpy's car for what turned out to be actually pretty lengthy interview.

And Lloyd, he gave the same alibi that his daughter had given them a couple days earlier. And he went on to say that he checked into the motel after helping Carrie move. He said they had dinner together. And after Carrie left, he went to bed. And then he said the next morning, he met Carrie and his younger daughter around 7am for breakfast, then he left the hotel and was off to California. Okay. So Volpy was like, okay. And then they went back to the station and he decided to check into that even further. I'm glad. And data from his cell phone actually seemed to corroborate

the story that he had told investigators and Kerry had told investigators. But the security footage from the hotel told a very different story. Uh-oh. When investigators looked at the footage, those freaking camels. To every time.

It's like Jesus Christ people look around. Yeah. I mean, or don't. I don't. I don't know. But so they looked at the footage and they saw Carrie and Lloyd get to the hotel the evening after she moved into her apartment. But when he walks her to her car later that night, he can clearly be seen getting into the car and leaving with her.

When he said he went to bed and then they met up for breakfast the next morning. Guy, nope. Come on. And then he didn't appear on camera again until the next morning, and that was when he was supposed to be getting breakfast with his kids. And the police chief there, Jeff Spalding, pointed out he still appears to be wearing the same clothes that he had on the night before. Lloyd's story was that he stayed at the hotel room all night. The video evidence is saying no, he didn't. The video evidence is saying no. That is incorrect.

So now the police had evidence that he lied to them about his alibi, and they were like, well shit, maybe he really did have something to do with this. After all. So combined with the physical evidence documented during the autopsy, everything investigators were learning about Lloyd indicated that yeah, he probably had something to do with this. But they had to identify his motive, which was pretty easy. Yeah.

The district attorney's office did some digging, and they found out that he was quote, not in a good financial place. According to Baker, Lloyd had over $100,000 in credit card debt. Oh, damn. And he was paying his wife almost $6,000 a month. Wow. Like child support. Yeah.

A $100,000. Credit card debt. Like, how do you, that much credit card debt? Yeah. That's a lot. When Hondo found, how did he even let you spend that much? I was gonna say, how did you even get that bad? And you had to have been across multiple accounts. It always had to have been, yeah.

My God, I remember the first credit card I got when I was like 18, I fucking maxed it out at like, I think it was probably like $3,000. And it took me years to pay it back. A hundred thousand. It destroyed you. Was a hundred thousand like you'd done. I also was like, damn, what was your credit score?

Cause mine was really bad back then. It's like a 200. See, oh my God, that makes me nauseous. Ha. Ha. But that wasn't it. Baker was also who worked for the DA's office, was also able to find out that Lloyd had already tried to collect Michelle's $260,000 life insurance policy, which clearly would have taken care of his debt. I am so glad that these idiots are so fucking stupid.

Me too. Thank goodness. Me too. Are you fucking kidding me, my God? Dude, this is, this is, like Jesus. Right out there. Oh my God. You have this much debt.

You already tried to, first of all, you immediately shut off all the payments. Why did you think that you were gonna get her fucking life insurance? You've been divorced for four years. Yeah. Like what? But based on what they'd learned so far, the District Attorney's Office,

they believed that Lloyd killed Michelle and Carrie had either helped him or was helping him cover it up. Shut up. Yeah. They thought she had something to do with it. Mm-hmm. Faa.

They couldn't prove it quite yet, but they were like, the way that she was covering for him. Oh, no. They were like, she either know something about this or she participated. Oh, no. Oh, oh, no.

I hate that. Yeah. Oh, man. So now they had a suspect with the means, the motive, and the opportunity to commit Michelle's murder. Now investigators were they were able to get a warrant and they put wiretaps on Lloyd and Kerry's phones to monitor those conversations. But it was November 2017 when they started monitoring those conversations. And by that point almost two months had gone by since Michelle had been killed. So Kerry and Lloyd weren't really talking

about Michelle that much anymore. Yeah, which they got, I'm like, you know, your whole last mom, but I'm like, wow, they apparently got what they needed out of the situation. Yeah. So, Jeff Spalding, police chief said, in order to kind of refresh things, we did what was called tickle the wire.

That's precious. Which I fucking love. Tickle the wire? Tickle the wire. I didn't know that was a termle the wire. That's precious. Which I fucking love. Tickle the wire. Tickle the wire. I didn't know that was a term, nor did I. Apparently it's a tactic that police will use to make criminals think that they're under like super intense scrutiny.

So it makes them talk about their crime more. Because they're like freaked out. Exactly. So what they did was in late November, they had detective Volpy there called Carrie and imply, because you, you know Carrie and imply because you that's pretty fine That's pretty fucking smart, right? They were like we found some new information and we're gonna need to talk to you Like you're gonna have to come down

So Carrie took the bait and as soon as she got off with the detective She called her dad and let him know that they were calling her back in and Lloyd was like it's probably just a Formality like there's nothing to worry about. But he still told her, quote, I don't think I want you talking to them. And then he went on to tell Carrie that she needed to put the police off as long as possible.

He said, tell them, I'm sorry, I got a counseling appointment back in New Jersey tonight and like told her to make it seem like she was really going through it. That's awful. And then asked her, could you cry like she was really going through it. That's awful. And then asked her, could you cry? And she said, I might, wow.

Yeah. So that was pretty incriminating. This is some cold shit. Cold from her ex-husband and her daughter. Yeah. Like, this is a daughter talking to her father about her mom. Yeah, it sure is. And he's like, can you cry manipulating her into like, they don't. This is a daughter talking to her father about her mom. Yeah, it sure is. And he's like, can you cry, like manipulating her

and then like, fuck. And that's the thing, she's like a fucking teenager. Well, this is a father. This is her dad. We're manipulating their child. Wait until you hear what really happened. Like, this is really just, this is cold. This guy. This is sinister.

This guy, this is given some story sinister. This guy is the scum of the earth. Yeah, truly. And apparently, we'll get there. I really don't want that. I was like, I love it. So the conversation between Carrie and Lloyd very much confirmed investigator suspicions.

Yeah. But at the same time, it wasn't, it wasn't completely incriminating. It was sinister vibes, but it was, that's what theyating. It was sinister vibes, but it was. That's what they said. It was sinister vibes. They were like, it's giving sinister vibe, but it's giving sinister vibe.

But they honestly didn't say anything like, wow, I can't believe we got away with this. But it wasn't right out there. Just anybody looking at it would be like, yeah. Exactly. But you can't just go off of, yeah. You can't right out there. Just anybody looking at it would be like, yeah, exactly. But you can't just go off of, yeah, you can't go off of a vibe. A vibe. No, unfortunately, you can't. I go off of a vibe all the time, but I think like when it comes to the law, I may have this whole thing against that. Yeah, that's the thing. You,

but everybody listening, live your life off vibes if you want to. Oh, please, too. Good vibes only, please. But chill vibes only. But yeah, legally we cannot. Yeah, no. And the other thing is legally you cannot get a search warrant off of vibes. Yeah, you can't. So one of the biggest problems

that the District Attorney's Office was facing was the undetermined cause of death on Michelle's autopsy. So they gathered up all the forensic evidence and all the autopsy reports, and they took everything to a private forensic pathologist for a second opinion. Unfortunately, Michelle had been cremated. Oh, no.

So there was no body to examine. But this private pathologist also noted the mark on Michelle's chin, and he noted that particular hemorrhaging was there and was very suspicious. And after looking over some more papers, he looked up at the detectives and the district attorney and said, this is a homicide. Hell yeah, he knew. He knew. Good job. So on January 24th, 2018, five months after Michelle had been murdered, investigators visited Lloyd at his office in New Jersey,

and another set of officers went to see Carrie at her apartment in Rochester, the one that her dad had. Knock, knock, knock. Quonengue helped her move into. So confronted with all the evidence that they had at this point, Lloyd still maintained, but he was at his hotel in Rochester all night, and he said, I'll take a polygraph test. I'll take one right now, like let's go. Cool. So they weren't very surprised by his confidence

because they knew between the two of them, if somebody was going to crack, it was going to be caring. Of course, she's a child. And they were right. Yeah. Once Carrie was brought into the police station for questioning, she told them everything. Which tells you that she did not want a part of this. Exactly. Like she had

done her whole life, it sounds. She snapped to attention front and center when he told her to. Exactly. Because she was scared of him. And wanted to make her happy to avoid whatever happened if he wasn't happy. This isn't a grown-ass adult. This is a child who is being manipulated by their parents. Exactly. It's really sad. grown-ass adult. This is a child who is being manipulated by their parents. Exactly. It's really sad. Against their other parent, which is some of the worst kind of manipulation you can imagine. Well, in a way, until you hear how she manipulated her to do this,

it's terrible. I can't imagine being in the position that Carrie was in. So according to Carrie, she and her father returned according after they did move into her apartment that afternoon. And she let her father returned according after they did move into her apartment that afternoon. And she let her father in the house. And Michelle was standing at the top of the stairs when they walked in into Michelle's house. And as soon as Michelle saw Lloyd, she started yelling and was like, why the fuck are you

here? Yeah. So they started arguing and they eventually made it to Michelle's bedroom to argue privately. And that's where the shouting continued. Carrie said suddenly everything went silent. And at first, she told Detective she didn't know why her mom had suddenly gone silent. But eventually, she admitted it was because her mom was dead. So she told investigators she saw her mom dead laying on the bedroom floor.

So he just killed her in their bedroom and her bedroom. Yep. While their child's children, children. Oh, God, because the younger one, the 14 year old was there. Yep, exactly. Oh, no idea what was going on. So Carrie knew that was why her dad was in the house

in the first place because he had actually come to her a week before this and told her that he couldn't afford the monthly support that he had to pay Michelle. And he was in so much debt that the only way he saw out was killing himself. He's a fucking monster. You can't handle it, dude. Figure it the fuck out.

Your kid should have nothing to do with your child support payments. You go to your child and say, I can't afford to pay for you, so I'm gonna kick it. Yeah. What the fuck? you go to your child and say, I can't afford to pay for you. So I'm gonna kick it. Yeah. What the fuck?

And anybody who goes to their kids and talks about custody issues and shit and like child support, that's an asshole move. Like, taking your old life, like what the fuck? That's a piece of shit move. And so knowing that Carrie's relationship with her mom was really strained at that point, he knew what he was doing.

He knew Carrie would choose him over the mom over Michelle. So he casually suggested an alternative plan. He said, well, we could also kill your mother. Jesus. And he said all his financial issues would be solved. So she literally sat there carrying the detectives interview room and said, I had to choose. I'm horrified. She was faced with that decision.

And what these children, nine-teamers, I don't know. Imagine what they dealt with as little kids. No, because if your father comes to you and is like, hey, either I'm gonna kill myself, oh, well, I'm not really actually gonna do that. I never had any intention of doing it.

But why don't we just kill your mom? But we could kill your mom. Because I can't afford the child support for you. Like, what? Like, what? Like, what? This is growth. It's, I can't, it's like your brain, I can't even come up with that on its own.

So, Carrie went on to explain the rest of the night, telling investigators that Lloyd and Michelle's arguing eventually woke up her younger sister, who was at the house, the 14-year-old. So, Carrie took her outside and put her into her car, and she just told her to wait. These poor kids.

She said that she then went back inside, and when she got there, her mom was dead. So she and her sister went back to Rochester, and she said they left Lloyd in Corning to stage the scene to look like a suicide. Now based on the confession, she was arrested on second-degree murder charges for the murder of her mother. Yeah, she knew arrested on second degree murder charges for the murder

of her mother. Yeah, she knew about it ahead of time. I mean, and she helped force you to. Like we talked about it, this is a father manipulating her daughter. So it's very fucked up in every way imaginable, but she played a role. You helped plan it. And it's the laws pretty black and white, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately. It's not your responsibility to stop it physically.

I mean, this is a grown man. You're a child. This is your father. But you called police. Monchi, I mean, she let him in the house. That's the thing. Like, it wasn't even that house that he had shared with. Michelle, this was the house that Michelle had gone on her own.

And it's the sad reality that it's like you had a chance to stop it. You could have called the police. It's awful. So with Carrie's confession on the record, investigators had everything they needed to arrest right now, but they ran into a pretty big issue. What?

He never showed up for that polygraph test at the police station that he said he was going to come to. Don't even tell me. And officers lost sight of him. Are you fucking kidding me, guys? They lost sight of him. Are you kidding me? But luckily, they were able to use data from his cell phone.

Oh, thank goodness. And they tracked him to a parking garage in Princeton, New Jersey, where he was threatening to jump from the top. Oh, fuck off, Lloyd. Like, oh, you just murdered a whole last person and involved your daughter, and now you're gonna jump. You're still trying to manipulate everybody's emotions. Get out of here.

You're just here for going to. Get out of here. So the officers in Princeton negotiated with him for over two hours. Oh my god. What a waste of fucking time. It's like just come down. We know you're coming down. Exactly. Exactly.

So finally, in a moment when he briefly looked away, an officer tackled Lloyd and placed him under arrest for the first degree murder of Michelle Knight writer. Carrie was taken to Corning that evening and formally charged on one count of second degree murder and at that point she was denied bail. Wow. So she was taken to the Stuban County jail. Lloyd, meanwhile, he was still in New Jersey

and now had to be extra-dited. So that was a whole thing. Yeah. So two days later on January 26th, Carrie was a reigned in the city of Corning and she entered a plea of not guilty to second-degree murder and she waved her right to a preliminary hearing. That's always so hard to say. Yeah. A few days later, Lloyd appeared before a judge in New Jersey where he waved extra-dition proceedings and then he was eventually transferred also to Stuban County. So he and his daughter, Carrie, were finally formally indicted in

late February in Stuban County, New York. In total, he was indicted on seven felony accounts. Damn. First degree murder, second degree attempted murder, first degree burglary, first degree custodial interference, tampering with physical evidence, second degree conspiracy, and second degree criminal solicitation. Wow! And Carrie was indicted on four felony counts. Second degree murder, first degree custodial interference, tampering with physical evidence, and second degree conspiracy. And District Attorney Brooks Baker told the press, this appears to be the ultimate domestic violence case. Oh, it's awful.

What is clear from the evidence is this was not a crime of passion. This was planned, calculated, and a purposeful killing. And he destroyed Carrie's life. A hundred percent. Like, you not only killed this woman, her mother, but you destroyed her life. Yeah, no matter if she goes to jail for 25 years or she goes she doesn't go to jail. Like you've ruined her life. She's gonna back on this and blame herself for that.

Yeah, that's the guilt she's gonna feel and like the you know, it's like this is this is so bad. And now she's like a random person, you know, like, you know, like, you know, somebody to kill somebody's like, this is your father convincing you that this is his only way. Uh-huh. Like, I can't imagine the emotional manipulation, the trauma that these kids faced, like that, for her to be manipulated into that by him,

like, the trauma they had to a face while they were children up until that point must have been so immense for him. Even just those small comments that you heard from family friends, like he would yell at the front and center. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, and people described like him

as making their appearance immaculate. Like, could they not meant to be immaculate? No, they're meant to be in like just wild and, and you know, it's like they should have jam on their face. Like sure, are there moments where you want your kids to look presentable for like your Christmas card or whatever they're facing? You try to keep their hands clean.

You keep those fingernails clean. But they're not. Like no, it's like kids. It doesn't sound like they were allowed to be kids. And that's the thing, they weren't allowed to be kids because he was sitting there talking about the custody issue and the financial stuff with his children, which is something you, in my opinion,

you should never fucking do. No, they should know nothing about your financial situation, your anything situation, they should be kids and kids alone. That's it. They should never have to know about adult issues between you or anything like that. And it's like, when I talk about that all the time, that's like one of my biggest things.

Cause when I was little, I knew everything that was going on in my household. I knew money problems. I knew custodied, custodied, I knew custody problems. And you shouldn't. And like, and it makes you have to grow up so much faster. And then you look at other people's childhoods and you're like, oh, like you weren't worried about,

you were carefree. Like you didn't worried about like. You were carefree. You didn't have to lend your mom your tooth very money. Like what? Oh my God, that's so awful. But yeah, but like that's why that's one of my biggest things when I have kids is like, our kids will be kids. Yeah, exactly. It's, you can't.

And everybody can raise their kids how they want to because of course, nobody's gonna raise kids definitely. But this is, you know, this is just our opinion on the matter. So take it- Take it, my opinion! Take it or leave it, but I don't, I think this is really fucked up what he did to these kids.

This is 100% his fault. You're not the only one that thinks that. Yeah. Solidarity. That's very cool. And actually many professionals feel the same. Awesome. Now, so from the moment they were arrested, investigators knew that Carrie would be the easiest one to flip.

She was young, she really didn't have a direct involvement in the murder as far as they knew, and she very much seemed to have a shit ton of guilt about what she's been involved in. So, after a few weeks, while she was in jail, the district attorney met with her to talk about a plea deal. And it was during this interview that she actually revealed the shocking fact that despite what she had told investigators originally, she actually had helped her father stage. Oh, no, Carrie. Yes, she didn't play a direct role in the murder, like her father very much murdered, but he, she helped cover it up.

She told investigators he opened the door and my mom was laying on the floor. And he said he needed help lifting her. We dragged her around the corner and he tied the rope to one of the problems of the banister and lifted her up and put her and she said lifted her up and put through her over the side and she was sobbing while she was saying this. I can't sadden this. She was traumatized on another level. The situation this girl was put into is her. She was put into this situation. She was emotionally manipulated. She was, ugh.

That's horrible. It's horrible. She also admitted that her father had written in the trunk of her car all the way back to Rochester, and her little sister never even knew he was in the car. That's terrifying. She snuck him in the trunk and he stayed in the trunk the entire time that they drove back. He's a fucking demon. Knowing that he had just murdered

their mom. Knowing that Carrie had to pretend like she hadn't just laid some kind of shit. He's a piece of absolute shit this guy. And the little sister has no idea what's going on. Like, and it sounds like Carrie is just, like she made very bad choices, obviously, very bad, like unimaginably bad, manipulated by a parent, which is the worst kind of manipulation. I can't even fathom that. Right.

And then it almost, it seems like she was also trying to protect her younger sister. Yeah, absolutely. Who I'm sure she had to to protect her younger sister. Absolutely. Who I'm sure she had to protect a lot from him. Yep. Like I'm sure that was became her a little bit of her job. Absolutely. It's protect the younger ones.

I'm sure. And it's like that's fucked up. That she never been in that position. That's the role, that she had to play all these different roles to try to keep everything the way that she thought it was. But like it's really sad. And again, the whole thing. Secondary murder? Yeah. Uh-huh. Absolutely. to try to keep everything the way that she thought it was, but like it's really sad. And again, the whole thing.

Secondary murder? Yeah. Uh-huh. Absolutely. Yeah. You didn't call the police, you didn't stop it in that sense in any way, but damn, this is an awful situation. It really is, because this sad thing is,

it's like she didn't have to do this. No way, she didn't have to do this. But then you look at it and you're like, if she called the police on him and like, he didn't go to jail, what would have happened to her? Oh, I do. She does. There's no way to put yourself in that situation. There was no way to get the parent, you know, like, and especially like that kind of situation. None of us can probably imagine it. Right. There really isn't. There's no winning, but like, fuck, it's an it's an unimaginable situation on every level, truly. From the beginning. Truly.

So she did take the deal. In exchange for testifying against Lloyd, she pleaded guilty to one count of second-degree manslaughter. OK. And she went on the record as having helped her father. Yeah. So during the hearing, she explained to the court how her father had confronted her with the ultimatum.

Either she helped him kill Michelle, or he was going to kill himself. And she said she didn't know what to do, so she agreed to help. And so this is actually like a thing that was done to her. It has like an actual term. Because in later interviews, Brooks Baker would explain that Carrie had undergone what's known as parental alienation. It's a process where one parent consistently criticizes and devalues the other parent with the intention of turning that child against

the other parent. Oh yeah, you can, that's like literally something that you can claim in custody issues is like to keep them away from the other parent. Like because they will like claim parental alienation. Yeah, that's when you get a guardian at light. I think it's called. Yeah. And that's when they kind of start to work their way into a situation like that. Which it's sad that it sounds like maybe a guardian at light.

I'm would have been a better answer here. Honestly. And it's just because the relationship between Michelle and Lloyd had gotten so contentious that I think they're needed to be like a third party. Yeah. Because it sounded like the kids were being so affected by that. And that sucks. That sucks. Yeah. Exactly. That sucks that people do this to their kids. And it's like your relationship with your adult relationship should not have anything to do with your children. No. And it's so sad. I don't know why I just thought of this,

but I was looking at pictures of them together, because I try to look at pictures to kind of like understand who the people are and everything. And there was pictures of like Michelle and Lloyd when they first got together, and Carrie and the older sister as babies. Oh, I so I was looking at those pictures, and they all look so happy. So happy. Like he looks like a happy goofy dad. Yeah, I think there's pictures of him in the delivery room.

Like it kind of looks like when I was looking at some of them and he looks so excited and happy to become a dad. He's like, what did all happen? How did you, what your future was? And how did you go from there to turning into this fucking awful monster? Mm-hmm.

And again, you want it, the marriage, you want to end the marriage. That's fine. And the marriage. Keep that relationship in that contention away from your kids. Seriously. But like, and it's like sometimes people are just not allowed to do that because the other parent won't allow it like won't let it happen. It's like that sucks.

It's really sad and it's really tragic how toxic divorce can become. Yeah. Especially for the kids involved in divorce. And even when there's really tragic how toxic divorce can be. Yeah. Especially for the kids involved in divorce. And even when there's no kids involved in divorce. It just sucks. Yeah, all right. It sucks. I feel bad.

Anybody going through that, I'm sorry. Oh no. That sucks because I can't even imagine and I would have no advice to give you because it's just I can't even fathom that. No. And you can't prepare for it. People are different in every situation. So it just sucks. them that. No. And you can't prepare for it. People are different in every situation. So,

it just sucks. This is just a fucking terrible situation. It's tragic. It really is. So, with Carrie having pled guilty and planning to testify against her father, the DA's office got ready for what they figured Lloyd's most obvious defense would be. That Carrie was the one who had killed Michelle, and he was just protecting her all along. Oh yeah. Because again, all of the evidence against him was circumstantial so far, and the only one who had confessed to anything was carry. So he easily could have turned around and like gone after. If he does that, well, like he's a fucking monster, but it's like how low can you go? Yeah. Pretty low. Oh. So district attorney, district attorney baker was anticipating an uphill battle of a trial. So, he went to Lloyd with a deal offer. He said, you can plead guilty to the

charge of first degree murder, face a sentence of 25 years to life in prison, and the additional charges will drop them if you take this deal. Now, at the time it was offered, like we know Lloyd was facing several felony case with additional charges now being added after the fact, because it was discovered that he and his sister went to Wendy Manila there, had attempted to bribe Carrie to change her testimony. What the fuck, fuck you, Wendy too? Yeah, they told she actually ended up getting arrested too.

Fuck both of you. They told Carrie that they would get her a lawyer, like one of the best lawyers, and that she would like get out of everything if she didn't do this. What the fuck? Yeah. What is wrong with these people? I do not know. Oh, so he was now facing extra charges against that. So, but at the same time, Brooks Baker, the DA, was like, I don't know if he's going to be the kind of guy that's willing to come to the table with a compromise. Like, this guy never backed down. Is he really going to back down now? But after weeks of consideration, Lloyd surprised the DA's office and he accepted the deal. Wow. Which is shocking to me. Yeah, I'm shocked by that. So after the,

excuse me, as with the deal offered to Kerry, Lloyd would have to go before a judge and explain on the record what he had done. And at the moment he started talking, Baker was like, oh no, this entire deal is going to fall apart. He said, I thought we were going to go bad for minute one because he starts off blaming Michelle. Wow. Laming Michelle. But just as quickly as he blamed her, he actually surprised everybody again

by reversing his course. Baker told CBS, he sort of said, but that doesn't matter. I have no excuse. Murder is wrong. It's like all of a sudden he was like beep beep, I'm supposed to say this. Like actually, I have to get a plea deal.

So let me throw it away. Anything you say after blaming the murder victim for their own murder is pretty mute. Or it'smute. So he did, he went before the judge on October 12, 2018. He confessed that he had killed his ex-wife in order to quote, take custody of his 14 year old daughter

and to end the financial burden of paying Michelle as part of a divorce settlement. Wow. Like, dude, just go back to court. If you don't wanna pay that much money. Or just stop paying even, like even that's better than murdering someone. Wow. Like, dude, just go back to court. If you don't want to pay that much money, or just, stop paying even, like even that's better than murdering someone.

Anything short of murder is a better idea. Right. Now, he also admitted obviously to manipulating and coercing Kerry into helping him cover up the murder and enlisting his sister to bribe Kerry into changing her testimony. Well, I'm shocked that he just admitted all this. He had to, or else he wasn't gonna get the deal.

I know, I'm surprised he took this deal, like, have forcing him to admit it. I know, I am too, because no matter what, he was gonna basically spend the rest of his life or the better part of his life in prison. So two months later, he went before a Stuban County judge where he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Bye. And at the hearing, he told the court that he had found God. No one cares. And now he felt remorse about killing Michelle. Good for you. But was quick to add, and this is his words, not mine. Michelle was unstable and needed to be committed

to a mental institution. Oh, there you are. You really had to just stand up. There he is. He's back, everybody. Like, how's God? Yep. So before the sentence was passed, Michelle's mom got to read her victim and her statement

and she said, Lloyd and I write are abused and tortured my daughter for 25 years. He coerced his own daughter into helping him kill her mother. Carey is now in jail facing the possibility of years in prison. Lloyd and I write are should never be given the opportunity to harm anyone again. Please your honor. Give him life without parole. Yes. And that he did.

Because it's like, this isn't just a gun. This is, it's bad enough when a man will kill his wife, like, you know, the mother of his children, like that, that's unthinkable. But to add your child into the fray, what, and let them take part of the shit. How do you do that? That's something.

Oh, my brain just explodes every time I think about it. So he is serving, servingly, I combined currently in serving. You know, he is currently serving his sentence at the maximum security Clinton correctional facility in Danimor, in New York. And now that leaves us with Carrie. Yeah, I'm dying to know what's happening here.

So a week after her father was sent in, she went before the same judge, and she was sentenced to one to three years in state prison. Ultimately, she did serve two years of that sentence, and she got released on January 16th, 2020. Wow. Now, a lot of people, even before and after her sentence was passed, they went out of their way

to convey that in certain ways she also was a victim, like we've been saying this whole time of her father's cruelty. Yeah. Michelle's mother, so Carrie's grandmother wrote in a letter to the judge saying, I do not believe my daughter, Michelle, would want a long prison sentence for her daughter.

She would want her to eventually lead a happy life. Wow. Which is, that tells you all you need to know. I think that's true. Yeah. And Brooks Baker, the DA, agreed. He said, if anything, the more information I've learned about the methodology the father used to get control, the more confident I am that this was the appropriate result.

See, and that all tells you, except that they know more than we do about what happened here. And I'm sure it's way worse than we thought on his ends. 100% and that, you know. And I think Carrie having to live mentally with what she was a part of the rest of her life, I would say, is a punishment in and of itself. Now, reflecting on the case, Brooks Baker, hard to say, remarked, having the daughter involved was very unusual.

This is the first case I've dealt with where the child is involved in the homicide of a parent. I hope it's my last. I also hope that, my guy. Yeah, but that is the story of the murder of Michelle and I, writer, such a tragic story. And it sounds like since Carrie was released, she's just kinda gone on to lead a very private life.

Well, you know, I hope that I hope the best for her. I really do. I hope she gets the help that she needs. Yeah, from what is clearly a traumatic childhood and a traumatic, you know, young adulthood. And I really truly hope that her father leaves her alone. Oh, I hope that she never fucking has to hear from that piece of shit again.

No, it's not a healthy relationship that's gonna offer her anything. In my opinion, at the very least. What a terrible case. That is terrible in every way that it could be terrible. Poor Michelle. Truly. Those poor kids.

Seriously. And Michelle's mom. Yeah. What a, I was like, damn. Yeah, she's in front of her. She laid it down about Lloyd, and then she laid it down about Carrie being manipulated. And the fact that she already had to spend so many years

estranged from her daughter because of Lloyd, and then Lloyd took her daughter forever, that poor, poor family. Wow. I also hope nothing but the best for them. I know, I hope everyone, everyone that, you know, isn't Lloyd. Yeah, I hope they're driving well.

Me too. I hope they're, you know, living't Lloyd. Yeah, I hope they're driving well. Me too. And I hope they're, you know, living a peaceful existence. Me too. And Vock. Yeah. But I hope that you guys keep listening. Yeah. And we hope you keep it.

Wee! But that's where you think you've ever convinced your child to murder your spouse because that's a fucking wild thing to do when you shouldn't have children if you're gonna do that. Yeah, don't do that. May! Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.